Packaging Pet Peeves with Kristyn Shaner

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right, everyone. Welcome back. Returning for another episode today. As co-host is my good friend Kristen Shaner. Kristen, welcome back to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:10

Thanks, Matt. Thanks for having me back.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

So let's dive right in. We have a lot to unravel today. And today we are talking packaging pet peeves. Kristen and I have both developed our top three most annoying packages or packaging formats. And we're here to share them with each other and with all of you fine people listening in. One caveat. We solve zero problems in this episode. We are here to complain only.

Welcome And The Complaint Rules

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Total bitch fest. Like the Lilith fair. Just kidding. So, Kristen, any color commentary before we get started?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

I'm a mom with two kids under five, and you'll hear that in my tone as I express my frustration over the next hour.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Fair enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

No expletives, but you'll feel it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

So I'm of the generation where I got to watch some Dave Letterman late night and uh how he handled his top 10 fill in the blank. So we're gonna follow a similar format with this. Before we get to the top, well, at least for us top three, I wanted to give a couple of honorable mentions, and I understand you do as well. So why don't you start us off with one of your honorable mentions?

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Sure. Um, one that came to mind for myself as well as one of my coworkers who actually mentioned this to me is styrofoam. And I immediately thought of those peanuts, which you don't really see anymore. It's mostly paper filler, and but every once in a while, like grandma will send you a package and you'll open it up, and it's just styrofoam peanuts, and they go everywhere and they blow everywhere. They're just they're just the worst thing ever. It's and the noise it makes, it's like it's like nails on a chalkboard. I can't

Honorable Mention Styrofoam Everywhere

SPEAKER_02 2:03

never again. We have to there has to be something better than that. It's just it's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So I actually had that as one of my honorable mentions as well. Shout out to Gail McWeanie who for writing that one into me. And ironically enough, yeah uh yesterday, two days ago, uh, we had a a furniture delivery for a new coffee bar in our kitchen. And it was one of those wayfair deals that you have to assemble, and so they're all in panels, and you have those long expandable polystyrene panels to take up the negative space. And of course, now you have to break it down and it it creates those tiny little bubbles of EPS foam, and it's all over my living room. So afterwards, the cleanup took me longer than assembling the furniture itself. So I am right there with you, annoying as hell.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

They just they get everywhere. That I we actually recently had a wayfair thing as well. And I as you were saying that, I was like rehashing the cleanup. Yep. Was quite agitating. And I know, like in food packaging, for instance, sometimes there's a you know, dry ice and it's gotta be shipped in it, but that's like a it's a tub, you know, it's literally a box in a box of styrofoam. It's when it's like a wasteful styrofoam, that's when it feels like unnecessary.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Well, it's the cheapest, easiest option, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

I I I truly believe, and I and all cards on the table, folks, I don't know everything that Kristen is here to share today. She doesn't know everything I'm here to share today, but I'm willing to bet that most of what we're going to talk about can be solved with money. If companies are willing to put more into their packaging materials, uh, if they're willing to forego maybe EPR mandates or sustainability mandates, or if they know consumers are willing to just raise their prices, a lot of what we're talking about can be eliminated with more convenient packaging, but it's going to cost more. So the question is, are you as a consumer willing to pay for it?

SPEAKER_02 4:01

Is it agitating enough to pay a little more?

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Exactly. Exactly. Kind of like the supply and demand curve. This is the cost versus annoying curve, right? And where does that intersect?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

I like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

Yeah. And I guess it depends on how much more, right? So then that would be the next question is like, you know, I'd pay 10% more probably for the furniture. Maybe, you know, a little bit more. But then if you go, well, it's going to be double for that coffee bar, you probably just deal with the agitation.

SPEAKER_00 4:31

Yeah. Yep. 100%. All right. My first honorable mention, um, special shout out to my longtime friend Susan King. She mentioned how resealable pouches can be quite annoying when they won't zip back into place. And I feel that. I a couple weeks ago I bought one of those massive bags of Twizzlers and it was resealable. And no matter how much I tried, I couldn't get it to reseal properly. Quite annoying.

SPEAKER_02 5:02

I think in theory, that idea is really good, but I personally feel like they never reseal. Like if you bought that bag 10 times, I bet you one of them would resale. I would love

Resealable Pouches That Never Zip

SPEAKER_02 5:16

to know the hit rate on the quality checks on that line. Because they just they don't ever work. I don't I think I actually intentionally don't buy them because you are paying more a lot of times for that type of packaging.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

That it to go back to your previous point, because it's convenient and when you're on the go, it's nice, but I don't think they ever work really. Never. Very rarely, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

And and you you assume as the consumer that if you're buying in bulk, you're buying in larger quantity, you're saving cost, right? Buying that 20 20-gallon vat of mayonnaise versus the you know 300 squeeze bottles of mayonnaise for the get to get the same amount, you would think net net you would spend less. But if the if you're paying more for the convenience of resealing, then again, they're they only last a couple days in my house anyway. So I guess the resealing function doesn't matter. We eat them too fast before they before they go to bed.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

I was gonna say, how many times are you actually trying to reseal it? And is it an issue with you just resealing it too frequently? That that's not work.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

It could be. Yeah, that's a fair point. I always like to joke that uh I don't remember where I read it, but it said, uh, every pizza is a personal pizza if you just believe in yourself.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:29

So, you know, every bag of Twizzlers is a single serving if you believe in yourself, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Yeah, the pizza one's a good one. I'm gonna tell my husband that one. He would appreciate that. When he there's like two pieces left. He's like, I can do it. It's fine. I'll just I'll take it for the team, I'll finish it.

unknown 6:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Why why waste having to package them up and put them in the fridge?

SPEAKER_02 6:46

Why wait? No need for that to use that aluminum foil and put it in the fridge. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

All right, what else you got?

SPEAKER_02 6:52

Uh this one is sort of packaging adjacent, but as a person who buys a lot, I do, I am quite an online shopper. I do return a lot of things. My husband frequently says, one day they're gonna charge people for returns because of people like you. And it's not like I'm buying it and using it. I just like, you know, if I need something, I buy five and I'll see what I like. Anyways, how easy it is to return, um, i.e., the label. You know, is does the label come inside the original package and you just have to like cut it off and tape it to the box and take it to UPS? Or is it like a process? You gotta go online, you gotta do a QR code, you gotta, you know, I think that

Returns And Labels Shape Shopping

SPEAKER_02 7:33

for at least from a consumer side of things, it definitely keeps you like you know, okay, this is an easy thing to return. So I'm probably more inclined to buy more. Now, how much is being returned? That's the question.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:44

But that's like a a little bit not specifically about the packaging, but about the way in which you use the packaging, I guess is probably a better way to put it.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Okay. So the overall um online ordering return process to streamline that.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Totally. Like I know Banana Republic and Gap, you get the packing list, and then at the bottom it's like a perf and you tear it, and that's your return label right there.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

So they do want you to go online and tell them that you're returning it, but you don't have to print out the label, right? You just it's physically there and you can put it right back on the same box that it came in. You know, it just makes it easier. And I probably buy more from them knowing that I can return it easily.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Yep. Another honorable mention that I have, uh, which I thought was an interesting one, and I have personally zero experience in this, is medication in glass ampules. And I'm gonna quote the person that sent it in. Shout out to Katie Tingley. The force requirement varies, quote, from stern look to hulk hands, unquote, to open these things. I personally have never opened a glass ampoule for medication, obviously a single-use item. So I can only imagine, but you know, having studied packaging, I am familiar with glass ampules. I know how the whole process works. And I thought that was kind of interesting

Glass Ampoules And Jar Tricks

SPEAKER_00 9:09

that from one to the next, there could be such a wide variation in the force required to open these things. So I can see how that can be quite troublesome.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

Well, and more of just like you don't know if you can open it or not. I I don't have any experience either, but even just sometimes medicine bottles, like sometimes they're like really that's the one thing I can kind of associate this with is sometimes it's very easy to open them very for an adult. Obviously, I get the concept. And sometimes I'm like, I can't, or you a jar of spaghetti sauce, right? That's a probably a better comparison where I'm like gotta call my husband and be like, can you come open this? Because I can't get it open. Um, but when you're talking about something that's that little and also expensive in most cases, the opportunity for hulking it in in your friend's case, and then I would imagine it kind of like either flying or dropping its glass. I mean, you'd think that they would have the tightening pressure on whatever that cap is relative throughout a right as someone who does the equipment, right? That would be like um a setup.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

One would think, I do have a trick for you though. So um, being a packaging nerd, when you're dealing with wide mouth jars, like let's say a glass jar with a wide mouth lid, i.e., your spaghetti sauce example, uh, if you're unable to open it, and I don't want to get into an argument of semantics as to what you call it, I call it a butter knife, even though I use it as a table knife, but the not the non-sharp knife, not a steak knife, right? It's kind of rounded.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Flip it over, hold it by the blade, and use the rounded handle of it and tap it at an angle all the way around the jar. Just hit the edge of the jar all the way around. You're kind of making little dents in there. Whatever's holding that those threads in place, whether it be residual product or whatever, it kind of loosens it up and it's easier to torque off. Try that next time.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Noted. I'm storing that somewhere in my brain. I'll let you know how it goes.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

I'll put the invoice in the mail. All right. My last honorable mention is produce netting, which I hadn't really thought about before. I thought that was pretty good too. I did a little bit of research on this, and the when you go to the store and you buy a bag of those tangerines, which we go through a lot of those in my house, that's polyethylene or polypropylene typically. Is there a better way to do that? Maybe there's something that is more recyclable, maybe there's some green materials you can use. Maybe there's a better way to do that, but that's something that could be could be improved upon, I think.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Totally. I didn't even think about produce. It didn't even cross my mind. I was so focused on the toy market,

Produce Netting And Recyclability

SPEAKER_02 11:54

as you'll hear. Yeah, I mean, because once you cut it, that's what I do. I cut it and then I dump them into like a bowl. We have like the banana hanging and then the oranges, but then it starts to fray, and then you have the pieces all over the counter too from the netting.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

I'm sure there has something to do with they want it to breathe and they want it to get sunlight and and fluid to it. But yeah, they're definitely there's definitely a better way to do that. I didn't even and but talk about cost. That thing is probably super cheap when you talk about the price per piece. And if you took that and made it paper, let's say, that would be it would be, I don't know, a hundred times more expensive. I'm just making up a number, but it would be a lot more out of here.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Well, yeah, but if you made it paper, when you're talking produce, now you're talking about you know, high moisture environments potentially. And so if you're going paper, now you have to do some type of either bond agent or wax coating or something. And now all of a sudden you're adding number one, cost and complexity, but number two, you're making it more difficult to then recycle that product. Exactly. I I I'm I'm sure the the people that work in that industry are already thinking about it. But um, if you happen to be listening, I would love to hear for some ideas. Uh, but right now we're kind of coming up blank on how to replace that produce netting. So if you have any ideas, love to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 13:15

That's a good one. We go through those things pretty much a bag a week in our house. So I feel like that residue from it's all over the counter every week.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Okay. Time to dive into our top three. Kristen, I'll give you the honors as the lady and my special guest co-host. Feel free to start us off with your number three.

SPEAKER_02 13:39

Okay. You've all received a package, probably from Amazon, that shows up on your front porch and you and you thought to yourself, what did I buy? What is that? Because the only thing that you can remember buying is a pack of pens or a new water bottle, and you've got a box the size of I don't know, half your front doorstep that's

Oversized Shipping Boxes In Ecommerce

SPEAKER_02 14:06

that's sitting there. That's my number three. When you get the little package inside the big box, or the little package is in a box that's in a box, and it's just the most Amazon has this thing called frustration-free packaging. That is the opposite of frustration-free packaging. It's the exact opposite. And as you and I know, and many people that listen to this podcast, there are many machines that are called right-size box machines made by many different companies that will fix that thing right there. So I still am perplexed on how Amazon has a distribution center that's sending out boxes that big.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

So the only first off, great observation. The only explanation that I could come up with is when you get to be the size of an Amazon, you there's a certain amount of standardization I think you have to achieve because just considering economies of scale, right? They probably identify arguably three different formats, you know, tubes, shipping containers, and then custom. And from there, they have very specific sizes that they buy from. And if they had to buy a million different sizes, you're buying 10,000 of a million different skews. Whereas if you're buying 10 million of 20 different skews, your economies of scale kick in and your cost per piece drop, obviously. So, and just thinking off the cuff here, I you know, if they were to go to like a um a pack size machine or something like that, where and it makes a lot of sense, I wonder it, I I have to believe I have to believe that Amazon has looked into that and for some reason decided it's not appropriate for whatever reason. Now, maybe they need to do better inventory management, but I just I wonder I wonder how that would work in a in an Amazon fulfillment center having a bunch of pack-sized machines. Hey, you know what, if they do that, then you need to you need to lay claim to that. Hey, that was my idea.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Yeah, I mean, I know I I I think it I know what it is. I know that they do, you know, you can tell by the box if it's right size or not, because it it's not a standard box that has a tape on this on the top. So when you look at it, the seam's typically on the side and normally is like perforated. So when you're looking at it, you know if it's right size. But I really think it's that Amazon has so many resellers that a lot of the stuff isn't coming from an Amazon DC, it's coming from a reseller. So it's like Kristen's logistics company that has a warehouse in Parsippony and ships stuff for Amazon. And and and I have 20 employees, I don't have a pack size machine. You know, so in your case, economy of scale, I order four size boxes and they fit in those four size boxes, and that's it. And then I that's what I ship in. But I know that here at Wexler, sometimes I'll go in the back and I'll have our shipper guy like get me a quote on if I ship this next day or single day or something like that. And there is a size of the box where once you get, I don't know what the size is, but let's say once you get above 10 by 10, it is that your UPS charges go up just because of the size of the box. So I just think to myself, that can't make sense. Did they just run out of boxes? Was this the only size box they had left? Like it just doesn't, knowing what I know about e-commerce, and we do a fair amount there, it just there's something wrong there. Maybe just poor training. Maybe that's what it comes down to, just poor training of an employee.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

No, I and that's a great point. I hadn't I hadn't thought about it from that perspective. I mean, obviously, no matter the best processes in the world still rely for the most part on people, right? And so your people management comes into play, and you know, people make poor decisions, employees get disgruntled, employees get tired, they want to go on a break, they get distracted because they're trying to listen to a sports game, or, you know, my boyfriend broke up with me, and so my I'm not in the right headspace, or oh, my kid's sick, I need to get out of here, and you know, uh a million different reasons why someone may not be paying attention paying enough attention, I should say.

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Where the best process can fall apart. So, no, it's a that's a great point. I didn't think about it like that.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

But it's just frustrating when you look at it and it's a pack of pens. If it comes in a shoebox, okay. You know, a pack of pens in a shoebox makes sense. But a pack of pens in the box that your coffee bar came in from Wayfair just seems seems lazy. It's really that's where I'm gonna end. I'm gonna put a pin in it there. It's just lazy, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 18:39

You hear that? Kristen's calling somebody out there lazy.

SPEAKER_02 18:42

Sorry.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Nope, don't apologize. All good. I had to apologize for the uh Lilith Fair comment. I was only kidding. Please don't cancel me for that. So, my number three, those Pillsbury biscuit cans. You ever buy those dinner biscuits or the breakfast deals, the cinnamon glazed bars and whatnot, and the paper never peels right. And then the inevitable anxiety when you press on the on that line, you want to try to get it to pop. No matter how prepared you are, it still startles the hell out of you. Those things annoy the crap out of me. They never open right.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

Never. We do the pigs in the blanket in our house. That's the big, you know, so we use the um the crescent rolls. Crescent rolls, thank you. And it I just I'm like pushing it with the spoon,

Biscuit Cans That Pop Too Soon

SPEAKER_02 19:32

I'm banging it on the side of the table. If someone was recording me, they could send it to America's funniest home videos. I mean, I'm yeah, so agitated with the thing. It's it's it's there has gotta be a better way. I mean, I'm sure the pressure probably helps with the shelf life.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

But this we gotta call them. That's that that's a really good one, Matt. That really I'm I'm sure most people can can connect with that one. They can see themselves in the kitchen on a Saturday morning making making biscuits.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Listen, if there's one person out there that's laughing along with this, then we uh we're officially commiserating together. But yeah, uh that was definitely on my list.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

It's so bad.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

All right, Shannon, what else you got?

SPEAKER_02 20:18

So yesterday we had my daughter's fourth birthday party, and my brother-in-law and sister-in-law got her this doll, and you take it out, and she's attached to the the cardboard piece behind her. So it's this is kind of a two-for-one. The first thing is every single appendage is zip tied, arms, two places on each arms, two pieces on each leg, her feet, it's like a hundred different zip ties. I don't understand why it needs to be that that many. But the the part that really agitated me was it was Aurora who's sleeping beauty. So she her hair is very long,

Toy Zip Ties And Sewn Hair

SPEAKER_02 20:58

and her hair is sewn, literally sewn to the cardboard backing. So I have to get a pair of scissors and attempt to cut this the stitch off without cutting the hair of the Barbie doll because my daughter was like, please don't cut her hair. I don't get it. Just let her hair free flow. Who who why does it need to be affixed to the cardboard? Um clearly it's this is fresh. This was like not even 24 hours ago. I'm just like, I did get it off, and there was no hair cut off. Thanks. My daughter was very happy about that, but it just was bad.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I can't say I really understand the whole doll concept, you know, never really been my thing. I, you know, my my my youngest, um, a boy didn't ever play with dolls, middle one, she uh did to a certain extent, but I don't understand. I don't I don't know why. What's the benefit of attaching the Hair. I don't get it.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I don't either. If someone works for a toy company, can you please explain to us? And it was attached on both sides. So think about like put your put your hand on the top of your head and slide your fingers down, like halfway down the back of your your head, and that's where they were attached. And it was a good six-inch piece with probably 20 stitches on each of them. So it wasn't like it was just like quickly attached. I mean, the amount of effort that it took to do that at the factory, probably in China, you know, is like I would imagine, or Vietnam or something.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

I just, it was crazy to me. And my daughter was just please don't cut her hair. I mean, she was like to the moon about it. She thought I was gonna destroy her brand new doll. So that was, you know, the emotional roller coaster that it entailed once I got the packaging off, and then found that I had to disconnect her head from the box as well. You know, it's just it feels like it's overdone. I don't really know what the purpose of that is.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

All right. Mattel, Hasbro, what uh what uh what brands? American Girl. If you're out there, we need an explanation.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

Melissa and Doug. Melissa and Doug, yeah, you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Hey, we know someone at Melissa and Doug. We know somebody, yes. We have contacts. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I don't think Melissa and Doug would do that though, because their packaging is they do a good job. They're they they do. They're they're a little bit more thoughtful with their toys in general, too. But it would be curious. If if they work at Melissa and Doug, they probably have a background in another toy company, I'm sure. We'll have to add a little an extra piece to this puzzle after we talk to our guy at Melissa.

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Fair enough. All right, my next one, number two, being that I have a degree in packaging engineering and I've worked in the packaging industry my entire career, it drives me absolutely bonkers when people, maybe people that live in my house, maybe not, cannot confirm nor deny. But when people open packages in a manner in which they were not intended or designed to be opened, for those of you that can't see my face right now, trust me, I'm frustrated. I can't even say this with a straight face. How annoying it is watching someone rip open a bag of potato chips or

When People Open Packages Wrong

SPEAKER_00 24:21

open a box of cereal and rip it down the side, like it's it's sealed at the top. What this is not difficult. This is not rocket surgery, which is a new favorite phrase of mine, by the way. I don't get it. Why why is this so difficult? You would think that, you know, okay, you could blame maybe like a new packaging format, you know, consumers are unaware. No, it's the same cereal box that when I was a kid. Why is this so difficult? It drives me up a wall when I see this in my house. I literally I I'd have to like walk outside and get some fresh air because I'm ready to lose my crap.

SPEAKER_02 24:57

Yeah, I think sometimes there are like a defect, right? Where you are sitting down, you go to open up a stick pack or something, and you know, it's not perforated or the or the tear's not the right way on the top or something. That does happen from time to time, right? There are diff defects in the packaging. Um, but most of the time, I think we as we like to say at Wexler, that's uh operator error.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:20

We have somebody call in for troubleshooting on the phone, and then we're like, is the machine turned on? You know, operator error is a lot of it. And I think part of that is maybe is it laziness, or is it they don't have the attention to what the packaging was made for in the same way that you do? You know, like you're looking at it from a different vantage point.

SPEAKER_00 25:42

Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 25:44

But I can see your face, so I can only imagine the conversations around the breakfast table after the box of cereal was ripped open the wrong way.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

I have to temper myself and the tone I delivered in and the words I choose because I will sound like an unhinged lunatic. I can I can only imagine sitting across the table from me having that conversation, going, what the hell is wrong with him? It's cereal. Are you serious? Yeah, but it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to me.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah. So well, you're like classically trained, if you will, you know, so it's like you're watching somebody do something that seems it's just totally wrong, and you can't help yourself but tell them that it's wrong.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

But to them, it's such a insignificant thing that they don't care.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

So you you you brought up a point about, you know, sometimes you'll deal with someone and and they'll have an equipment issue and and you'll say, Well, is the machine on? Uh, have you ever heard of an ID10T error?

SPEAKER_02 26:46

ID10T. No, but you're about to tell me this is about like an acronym or something.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

I no, no, no. If you if you do you have a pen and paper, Handy?

SPEAKER_02 26:53

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

All right. Anyone listening at home, if uh if you're driving, please don't do this. But write out ID10T and tell me what it spells.

SPEAKER_02 27:01

ID 10, like T-E-N.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

No, no, just the the number 10. ID10T.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Oh, idiot.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:13

I wrote ID, but then the number 10. I'm like, that doesn't spell a word, Matt. Look at that. Thank you for proving my point. There you go. Prove your point. Yeah. We have a lot of though there sometimes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

ID 10T error.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

That's so funny. No, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take that one downstairs to the service guys. And I bet you they I bet you they either know it or they know a version of it.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

I hope I hope so. I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

So um a a 2A, if you will, on that is like you were talking about if the if the packaging is if there's a defect or something, but you know, if you buy like a pack of Capri Suns and it's perforated and you go to pull on the perf to open the pack up and it never pulls on the perf. Having worked in a in an especially paper, uh, but having worked in a paper industry and and knowing just how intricate those perf can be, it's a fine line between just right and too deep or not deep enough. Too deep on the perf and it falls apart, not deep enough, and you get what I'm mentioning where it just it tears and it's a very jagged and ugly looking. So I can understand that, but it's still annoying.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah, last year, I actually just thought of an experience. We were at the Ruckers IAB board meeting. Matt and I are both, well, Professor Molvey is obviously on the board because he's a professor now, but we're both uh lucky enough to to work with Rutgers on their packaging board. And uh one of the gentlemen that were what that was with us was from Unilever. And we were having sandwiches and we were opening up uh mayonnaise, little packs of mayonnaise. Do you remember this? And they weren't opening, and he was like, Oh, don't get me started on these single-use packs, they've been such a pain. Like, he didn't even, as soon as I went to pull it, he didn't even need me to say anything. He knew it was an issue. And he's like, We just fixed it, it'll be better now. You know, it was very he he his face was like, he was upset. He's like, Of course you have my mayonnaise here, of course, you know. Um, and it was it was kind of playful. We played around with it a little bit, but you know, to your point, it's a big organization, just like even Unilever, you know, that there's just little changes on a machine where you can make small change, small little critical changes to that machine that will then create kind of a domino effect in the product.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Yeah. What I find interesting is that's a second random mayonnaise reference we've made in this one podcast episode.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

That's we might have set a record.

SPEAKER_02 29:48

No, um on a sandwich?

SPEAKER_00 29:50

No, it's not. Uh my my condiment of choice would be like a spicy mustard. I have a I have a bottle of actually my father bought it for me down at Myrtle Beach. It's uh a brand called Coops, which I guess they have down south. We don't have it up here, or at least not that I'm aware of.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

I've heard of Coops.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

But it's it's like a Gildan's spicy brown mustard, but it's a jalapeno flavor, so it's got like it's infused with that jalapeno, so it's got some kick to it. That's good. I I like a spicy mustard. That's my that's my choice.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

That's your yeah, I'm I'm mayo. I'm a mayo. Unless it's like there's certain sandwiches that lend themselves to a mustard, like a ham and cheese. I think that's a mustard sandwich, you know. But I'm a mayo person.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:31

So you couldn't blame it on me for the double mayo.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Well, I I brought the I I did the first one, so that was on me. That's fine.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Oh, true. Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_00 30:40

All right, so drum roll, please. What's your number one packaging pet peeve?

SPEAKER_02 30:49

So, according to Wikipedia, I know that's a great source, but six thousand people a year go to the hospital due to this packaging style, which I thought was quite interesting. It's the clamshell, the blister toy clamshell. And I currently have a polypocket for my child sitting on the dining room table that I refused to open yesterday. Refused. I just kept hiding it from her. I can't. Why do they still make packaging like that? It it's it's the heat-sealed, you know, plastic

Clamshell Blister Packs Hurt People

SPEAKER_02 31:26

on plastic. You need the knife to get it out. 6,000 people a year.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

So it's funny, after you said 6,000 people a year were injured or not, that's exactly where my head went because that is my number one, also. That's hilarious. I was specifically on the scissors in blisters because you need the scissors to open the blister, but the scissors that you need are still in the blister. So it's like a chicken or the egg scenario, and it I find it hilarious.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Yeah. Now I will say that there have been so I wrote down it's better with a cardboard back. You'll see that now that some companies have gone with a cardboard back with you know a printed blister card.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

It's a heat seal card.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Yeah, and then they put the clam on top, so at least you can tear the plastic off.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Not so intense. I mean, sometimes you gotta take the scissors to that, but it's not as bad. So I'll uh we're moving in a direction that's getting there, but it's just it has to be money. It has to be, it has to be the cheapest way to do it because otherwise I don't think anyone would do that to any of anybody. It's like hum, it's it's cruel and unusual punishment, actually, is what I think it is.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

So, cost of goods is definitely cheaper. The two most common ways that I'm familiar with for sealing are either heat sealing or RF welding, which are not expensive technologies. Um the barriers to entry for automation are not really high. Uh, and the machines are they they don't take up a ton of space. Like you can go out and you can buy a three-station, four-station machine, and you can fit it in a medium-sized bedroom in your home.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

They're not so from that perspective, I I think that's why part of the reason why you see a lot of that format out there. As far as, you know, I again I go back to the I have to believe if there's a better technology out there that's able to be that's able to be commercialized, people would already be in it. Right? I mean, when you're in business, you you're you're gonna go with the cheapest option cost-wise to still keep your customers happy. Right? I mean, unless you're a luxury brand and you're going above and beyond, you're really looking at you're really looking at pinching pennies wherever possible. And so if this is what's out there on the market, I have to believe that there's there's nothing better, you know, from a a a cost of goods reproducibility perspective. And if there is, I would love, I would love to hear it.

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah, but us parents on Christmas morning are not happy.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:02

I uh it's like I want to take them apart before I wrap them, but then they're not all like in the, you know, they do a good job and they get the the little pockets and they put them in and they make it look nice. And I didn't even know they made polypockets anymore. Yeah, I don't know. And yeah, those uh 80s babies that are listening to this. I thought that was like I opened it up. I'm like, they're making this still. And then when I realized it was the clamshell, I was I wanted to throw it out the window.

SPEAKER_01 34:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:27

I'll report back if I'm one of those 6,000 people that needs to go to the hospital for a year when I try to open up my daughter's polypocket because I'm sure tonight she's gonna find it, bring it to me, and make me open it.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Kristen Schaehner, 6,001. So many, many moons ago, I worked for Pfizer Consumer Healthcare, and I was part of the team that launched the Listerine Pocket Mist, which was a big deal. And um, so my focus was the secondary packaging on that line, or on that launch, I should say. And so when we launched it initially, and I believe it's still it came out, the single and the the actually the single and the dual device were in a heat seal card. So it was a paperboard backing with a a thermoformed, or I should say, I don't remember if it was thermoformed or cold formed, but um, you know, a formed blister. And above and

Designing A Safer Blister Opening

SPEAKER_00 35:23

beyond that, rather than forcing the consumer to rip the two apart, we added a perforation on the back. Like when you buy double AA batteries or triple A batteries, there's a perforated window to access the device from the back. And I will say that I spent more time on that perf design than I did on anything else in the secondary packaging, just to show how complicated and how much work and labor hours went into all the different design iterations and testing and whatnot.

SPEAKER_02 35:55

Yes, but your consumers were so happy that you did that.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

So all the time and effort that Matt Mulvey put into that, everyone appreciates. It's funny, I have a customer. When you said Listerine, I you know this company too, a contract packagers that's down in South Jersey. Um, they do a lot of the Costco, Sam's Club, you know, wholesale clubs of the Listerine, uh, you know, the little sheets you put on your tongue.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Yeah, the the pocket uh pocket packs. That was the initial, yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Yeah, so they do like a five-pack or a six-pack of them. And and about a year and a half ago, they do. They do. And and this company runs the this line runs all the time, but they just transferred it over to all plastic, it's all paperboard now.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 36:39

And I think maybe there's just a little piece of plastic that sits on top of the actual packs themselves, but it's paper now. And I remember going into the line and being like, Oh, you made the change. He goes, Yeah, it took forever. It took a lot of tooling, a lot of changing. But does Pfizer still own Listerine or is someone else?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

No. So uh Is that a Unity reproduct now? No, 2006, Pfizer sold their consumer healthcare division to Johnson Johnson.

SPEAKER_01 37:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

And then that brand, along with many others that I used to support, fell under the Kenview umbrella.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

Um, so I believe Listerine is a Kenview brand now.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

It is still Kenview. It has been for quite a while now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

2006. You're right. In 2006, Johnson Johnson acquired the brand from Pfizer. And now, since the separation of those companies, it's still a Kenview product. So sorry, Kenview, my fault for calling it a Pfizer product. That was bad of me. I did know about the consumer change over there too. So I should have known better. But um, but yeah, I guess they decided now whether that could have been pressure from the wholesale club, or the wholesale club said, we don't want the plastic on plastic anymore, or if that was KenView making a sustainability decision. But I remember when they changed those lines over, and I remember the the maintenance manager there, I have a really good relationship with him, and he was just like, it's finally running again. Because to your point, it was it was so painful to make that change. But as the contract packager and contract manufacturer, they don't have a choice. They have to make the change in order to keep the business.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

And what the average consumer does understand is even the most minute of changes to a packaging format can take months and a lot of money and a lot of work by a lot of different people to get it through the automation process and get it out to uh store shelves. And it's it's sometimes it's sometimes it can be quite ridiculous. So something as simple as a, you know, now maybe uh a heat sealed card perf design is a minor change. You know, you go to your folding carton supplier and they change their tooling up a little bit, and maybe that's a three-week turnaround, but you know, something of a, you know, you change the size of the heat seal card. Well, now you're looking at new tooling, and so you have to design your unit tooling and test that, and then you have to see if the four across on your machine still fits that platform. But no, now you have to switch to three. So now you're looking at uh slower cycle speed, and now you have to run longer, and maybe you have to add a second another shift and all the implications from a minor change to go from a five-inch wide heat seal card to a five and a half-inch heat soil card, right?

SPEAKER_02 39:12

It's and that's why marketing and manufacturing do not get along.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

Well, that's why packaging engineers exist. So we can sit there in the middle and talk to both of them.

SPEAKER_02 39:22

Yeah, because marketing is like, yeah, we're just adding a perforation to the back of the panel. It'll be easy. Consumer tests prove that the customer will repurchase if there's a panel back then, you know. And then to your point, manufacturing is like, do you know what it's gonna take to do that? And then there's someone like you in the middle, like you said, that will be like, Don't worry, I'll figure this out, guys. The genius button.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Well, I don't know about genius, but okay, I'll I'll accept that.

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Take the compliment.

SPEAKER_00 39:49

I I thank you. I appreciate that. I get so few that I don't know how to accept them. So talking about scissors and blisters, and and again, folks, sorry you can't see, but but Kristen gets to see, and she's seen this before. Um, at my desk in my home office, and I'm holding it in my hand up on the screen, is the as seen on TV, stop struggling with those stubborn plastic packages deal. I've actually brought this to multiple events at Rutgers and shown the students, this is my favorite package out there on the market. It is a tool that is designed to open clamshell packaging, and it is packaged in a clamshell package. So circling back to my chicken or the egg scenario, I love the irony of this package. And and and I it's funny, I talked about it for years, and then I finally said, you know what, I need to actually go buy this so that I can have a physical copy of it.

The Tool To Open Clamshells

SPEAKER_00 40:43

So I bought that a couple years ago, and that's I don't I'm not gonna open it because I'll be 6,002, but I do keep it in the clamshell as as a a reminder of the irony of of package design sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 40:55

You should make the the little photo for this episode, that picture of that.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

You know what? That's a great idea. I like that.

SPEAKER_02 41:04

So then everybody can look at the uh the what is it called? The thumbnail or the what's the yeah, thumbnail picture make it a make it a picture of that package. Everybody can everybody knows what you're talking about. But when they see it, they're really gonna it'll it'll really run them.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

That is a great idea.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Like it's just the dumbest thing ever. I'm sorry. I don't like to call people stupid. Everybody, but I'm you know, different levels of education and knowledge, but the person that designed that package was that was just all yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

But I like the fact that you and I are both on the same page that uh clamshell packaging is our number one. That's obviously a pet peeve, and you know, misery loves company. So I'm glad we're aligned on that.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

Yeah. And anyone that has kids or is a grandparent or has a niece or nephew and has ever attempted to open something like that. I mean, it's very common in toy packaging, but to your point, it's you know, that's a pair of scissors. It's the same thing. There's so many places. I I I would ask all of you, next time you go to Target, just walk up and down the aisle and see how many things are in clamshells. You'd be surprised. It's really a lot of packages. And you think to yourself, there's to your point, as you had said before, there has to be a better way. But I think it really comes back to the the cost of goods, is really what it comes down to, to your point. And I didn't think about how there's a that equipment being smaller and not, you know, low barrier for entry on cost. That it's it's a it's a really valid point, which again, to your point, the consumer does not think about. They just buy the package, but they don't think about what happened to get the package there.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

They know how much they paid for it and they know how difficult it is to get into it. And that's and and and how the product itself works. That's that's all they see, right? That three feet in front of their own face. They don't see everything else behind the scenes that would go into making that package more consumer friendly, right? Could could it be done 100%? But that four dollar pair of scissors just became nine dollars. Are you still gonna pay nine dollars for that pair of scissors? Or are you gonna say, ah, the heck with it? I'm gonna figure out something else, right? So companies are forced to do that analysis and go, all right, well, people are willing to pay four. Are they willing to pay five, six, seven? What what's the number? And then what is the most ideal package that we can mass produce at that number? Still make a profit, still give our quarterly dividends, you know, stock price goes up, or, you know, owner, hey, how do I buy my second Maserati? You know, if that's uh if that's your thing, right? You know, but those analyses are taking place. The question is when will the next level of technology come out to replace these damn clamshells?

SPEAKER_02 43:48

Yeah. Or or when will consumers push so hard up against probably never clamshells, but you know, there's certain industries where to go back to the styrofoam. Right. There's uh like Dunkin' Donuts was always known for their styrofoam cup. And you go to Dunkin' Donuts in Massachusetts now, no more styrofoam cups because the consumers in Massachusetts and the uh representatives, they said no more styrofoam because they know it's bad for the environment. So they made a decision and then Dunkin' Donuts had to make a change. But I guarantee that Dunkin' Donuts wouldn't have won away from that styrofoam cup if they weren't forced to do it.

unknown 44:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

Because it was such a brand recognized thing for them. And you'll see that with Chick-fil-A

When Consumers Force Packaging Change

SPEAKER_02 44:29

too. There's some, it's funny, sometimes you go to Chick-fil-A and you get a styrofoam cup, and sometimes you don't, depending on what state you're in. I don't know if you ever noticed that.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

No, I haven't I haven't really paid that much attention to it. But obviously now I, you know, now that you've brought it up, I will.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

I'll be looking.

SPEAKER_01 44:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

So we got through our top three. Thank you for for coming prepared and bringing your list with you. So now here comes the hook. If you're out there listening to this episode, as we hope many of you are, and you have an idea or several ideas on how to address some of these packaging pet peeves, please consider reaching out. Track me down through LinkedIn, send a message through the contact form at www.precision solutions.com. Or if you know Kristen, reach out to Kristen directly. We would love to hear back. Maybe if we get some good ideas, we schedule a follow-up episode to talk about some of those ideas. Who knows?

SPEAKER_02 45:25

It's also interesting to hear sometimes the reason behind, right? We I would be curious to talk to somebody who like went through the cogs

Send Us Your Best Fixes

SPEAKER_02 45:34

of a package like that and said, like, yeah, we did look at that, but the barrier for entry was way, or the cost of goods for entry, excuse me, was $5. And if we went above $5, we're not selling them, right? That that would be like a case study that supported that. That would be interesting. Uh so somebody works at a consumer goods brand or at a toy company and they said, Yeah, we actually looked into it, and this is what the data showed. Me and you would geek out, I think, on that data a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

I think so. Yeah. Well, an episode of the Packaging Etc. podcast would not be complete without a random trivia tidbit. Are you ready?

SPEAKER_02 46:11

I'm born ready for yours.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Oh, I'm I'm I'm teeing you up. You're gonna be disappointed. Did you know that 87.4% of all random percentages are fabricated on the spot?

SPEAKER_02 46:30

That is not where I thought you were going. But if you had to ask me what percentage was, I probably would have said 75.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 46:42

I would say

Trivia And Sign Off

SPEAKER_02 46:43

I would have gone maybe not that high, but I would have gone pretty high.

SPEAKER_00 46:49

So if you're gonna bullshit somebody, throwing that 0.4% sounds so much more realistic and accurate just by adding that decimal place. If you just go straight 75%, people are like, eh, it just sounds like you're fudging numbers. But as soon as you add that 0.4, they're like, ooh, okay, I'm paying attention now.

SPEAKER_02 47:10

It seems more legit.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Food for thought.

SPEAKER_02 47:13

Noted.

SPEAKER_00 47:14

All right. Any final thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 47:16

I can't wait to go home and open that polypocket pouch.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Please be careful.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

I will. I'll report back so you know I'm not in the hospital.

SPEAKER_00 47:25

All right. Well, with that, we're gonna sign off from this episode. Thank you guys all for tuning in. Please be sure to hit that like and subscribe button. Appreciate the support. Take care.