Words Have Great Power: Keri Opai on Language, Identity & Takiwātanga

In this powerful ASDP Podcast episode, lifelong educator Keri Opai joins Dr James Carter to explore how language shapes identity, wellbeing, and the way we understand autism and mental health. 

Drawing on Māori perspectives and his internationally recognised term Takiwātanga ("in their own time and space"), Keri challenges deficit-based narratives and highlights the profound impacts words have on children, families, and communities 

Transcript

James 0:12
Hello to all ASDP listeners. My name's Dr. James Carter. I'm here in Queenstown, New Zealand at the ASDP 2025 conference. And I have the absolute delight of being joined today by Keri Opai, who has just presented to the conference. Keri, tēnākwe. Tēnākwe, James. Now, Kerri is a lifelong educator who teaches Maori language and culture. He does so in primary and secondary schools and also at a tertiary level. And he's just spoken to us today a lot about the power of language and the power of words. Keri, I should introduce myself to you as we've only just met briefly to let you know I'm from Melbourne. I'm a paediatrician from Melbourne. That means my river is the Yarra River, a river that is far more magnificent than many people give it credit for. The bay I live on is Port Phillip Bay, which is also quite magnificent. And my mountain, well, that's a bit harder to call. I've got lots of small foothills around where I am. 

Keri 1:08
No snow? 

James 1:09
Not, not within a, not within at least a few hours drive. Right. But that's a little bit about where I'm from. So look, Keri, thanks for joining us. To start off, the theme of this year's conference is wellbeing, speaking well, thinking well, and being well. Can we begin by you telling us how you look after your own wellbeing? 

Keri 1:29
Well, great question right off the bat, eh? Well, actually, I've got a number of things because I make it a priority to try and be well because I can't do the work that I do that hopefully helps other people be well if I'm not well. So, you know, I'm Maori. I'm from Taranaki. I'm indigenous. So I spend time, uh, down by the sea. The sea is where I grew up and the rock pools, that was my so when I'm thinking or writing or, you know, contemplating things, I will spend time down by the sea. And for a lot of indigenous people, they spend time on a mountain or, you know, as you say, foothills or in the environment and the forest, all that sort of stuff. But for me, it's, um, being in, some sort of, uh, beach environment or, you know, down by the sea, that's, that's where I feel the most connected to, um, the environment. The environment and, you know, for Maori and indigenous people being connected to the environment is really, really important. So sort of on a thinking level, spiritual level, all those sorts of things, uh, it's the environment, spending time there, but on a, on a sort of more practical, um, physical sort of plane, I work out, you know, so I, I have a, a gym at home in my garage that I put together. So I, I try and take care of myself physically because so many people that I know, Maori people have died in their fifties and I've said, I'm not doing that because the longer I live, the more I can contribute to my community. And my elders, especially that taught me, a lot of them lived into their eighties, nineties, and even one was 106. So they looked after themselves so that they could contribute all their lives to the community and to Farno. And that's, that's what I do. 

James 3:25
Fantastic. And listeners, I can assure you, you don't have the benefit of being able to, um, see carry as I can, but he definitely, I can tell he definitely works out for sure. Um, and look, you know, as you're saying that carry, it, it makes me think, you know, even beyond the topic you were talking about today, it's a message. I often, I often have to reinforce to parents when they're, when they're coming with their, their child who has whatever issue they may have is that the approach of a parent is often a self sacrificing one, isn't it? I don't matter. I don't matter. My child is all that matters. Whereas in medicine, we're often at pain. So let the parents know, well, hang on. It's the oxygen, apply oxygen to yourself principle. Apply it to yourself first principle. Uh, and without looking after yourself, it's really hard to look after your kids well, so. 

Keri 4:05
Yeah. Yeah. Look, I, I really support that and you're exactly right. And a lot of, a lot of people that I know and I related to and work with that, that's exactly how they feel is everything is for the children or for their mokopuna, for their grandchildren, you know, and they don't look after themselves. So, so they, I had a friend recently who reached the milestone of 50 and had a big celebration and said, I never thought I'd make it. So, you know, a lot of people in that area that just go, well, I never even, and you know, and fair enough, their, their families have, you know, a lot of them have passed away in their fifties. But, but surely if you look after yourself, then you can look after your children, your grandchildren, maybe even great grandchildren and contribute more. So, yeah, I, I make sure to try my best anyway. Yeah. 

James 4:52
Great. All right. So Keri, the topic of your presentation today was words have great power. For me, one of the most powerful comments you made during the entire talk was you, you, you spoke of a person who you've worked with, who has a diagnosis of schizophrenia, who declared to you at some point, I have not had an episode in 40 years, but I'm still called schizophrenic. Yeah. When does it end? Yeah. Really powerful comment. Would you like to talk to the listeners a bit more in regards to that? 

Keri 5:20
Yeah. I mean, I think it was just a really great example of, here was this woman, you know, I talked to about schizophrenia and lots of other things as well. And it just sort of came up naturally as she hadn't had an episode in 40 years, four decades. And yet that stigma would never, ever go away. And people still called her that, you're schizophrenic and, and treated her really badly, actually. And she, you know, she was only maybe 50 or something like that. So her entire life has been determined by that one diagnosis and whatever happened in that time. And again, that I used that sort of energy to sort of channel, hey, I, I, I, not only do I not want to cause harm, I want to try and help with that. I want to try and help people that, you know, for them, language And there's a, there's a power and respect in that. So if I, I, I, not, not just her, but many other people, they've all been like that, you know, where as soon as you heard the word, oh, your son's autistic. It was this moment, this, oh my God, negative. And as you would have seen in the video, you know, there's, there's, there's so many people that naturally went diagnosis. It's negative. There's no recovering from it. It's forever negative. And it just went into huge depression. And I just thought, look, the, the, at least you can expect that the language itself doesn't necessarily need to convey negativity and permanence if it's not, you know, and there are other ways of looking at this. And so I try to use my indigenous perspective, my Maori perspective to go, well, what's more important here? And so I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. And I try to use my language. Tribe is not the word that people use these days. But people still use that a lot. So, you know, when people, the Maori people say, yeah, I'm autistical. Yes, I'm toki watanga. They usually say that after they say who they are, where they're from, what their community is. It's part of who they are. Not all of who they are. So, you know, I just think, especially working in these areas, as you know, mate, you know, mental health, addiction, disabilities, all these sort of things, you've got enough on your plate. You've got enough to live with. You've got enough sort of hard things happening. I think the bare minimum you can expect is that the language doesn't necessarily pull you down like, unfortunately, a lot of the English does. So, you know, I kind of used the energy I got from things like that, like what she said, particularly about herself, that I just thought, yeah, I can do something about this. I can maybe help with this aspect. 

James 8:34
And speaking about words with energy, another one that you used or you spoke of, which has a sense of what I interpreted as sort of a dark energy, almost a powerful word, but a powerful in the way of Darth Vader being powerful, was the word mate, which if I understood you correctly, is kind of a common term for a patient who is sick and unwell. But more literally translated, it really means dead or ill or disease. And in your words, there is no recovery from mate. So it was your recommendation that that term be changed. And I'm going to allow you to do the pronunciation of the term that you changed it to. 

Keri 9:12
Yeah, mauiui, mauiui, mauiui, that's how you pronounce it. But, you know, that word, changing that from mate. So, you know, mate, it would have been the 1800s when they first made that up and went, oh, they've got a mate. They've got something negative about them. They've got a disease. They've got something like that. And it does mean to be deceased. So you can't help. But if that's a word that you start with, mate, henengaro, you are immediately placing that place and space in a negative one and probably a permanent one. And, you know, illness, death, evil and, yeah, a little bit of Darth Vader in there for sure, because it just it doesn't make sense. It's, you know, a lot of things are recoverable. And even if they're not, we don't have to talk about them as if they're going to drag you down into the realms of bloody hell. So I think just that little change there, mauiui, so that meaning out of sorts, tired, sick, out of balance, especially. Just changing that makes it, oh, you can recover from that. You might be able to learn to live with that. It's not a permanent thing. You know, it's not about death. It's about being out of balance for now. 

James 10:35
And it's fascinating to hear you say that, you know, that term, that word probably was coined in the 1800s. And we're talking about the legacy of language that probably once made sense culturally, but it just doesn't now. Yeah, sure. And it's interesting if I compare that to one of the questions that was asked in question time for you. For the benefit of the listeners, one of the conference delegates got up and mentioned the fact that she shared with the group that her child had been recently been assessed as meeting the diagnostic criteria for ADHD. And it was really only as a parent, as opposed to a clinician, it was really only as a parent that it struck her just how horrific the two D words in that term were, the deficit and the disorder, to emphasize the Ds. She thinks of her child as being bright and bubbly. Deficit and disorder are words that sit terribly uncomfortably. And I think about the legacy of the terms. Well, that's a term that's only about 20 or 30 years old. In your presentation, you asked the group, what is the Maori word for autism? I'm going to attempt the pronunciation on this occasion, Keri. I think I can get this one. It's Takiwātanga, if I said that correctly. 

Keri 11:37
Just a long emphasis on the wa. So Takiwātanga. Takiwātanga. 

James 11:42
I'm not doing it anywhere near as good as you, of course. But as I understand from what you were telling us earlier, that's a term that is now applied to refer to autism. And it's being really adopted all around the world. Yeah. I will get you to tell us a bit more about that. 

Keri 12:00
Yeah. I mean, it's kind of difficult to talk about this because it has gone around the world, but it's my word. I created it. And I hate talking about myself and what I've done, you know, and that sort of thing. But the response has been wonderful. So, you know, as I mentioned, there might have been a couple of other terms that people said, but they were either grammatically incorrect or just incredibly negative for anybody that's experiencing Takiwātanga. So, yeah, I've been lucky and privileged that my word has gone around the world and been accepted by so many different peoples, indigenous, non-indigenous, all around the world. So I do still get emails from Argentina and Russia and all around the world just saying, thank you for coming up with this amazing word that we can relate to. You know, I've based that on a decades-long friendship. I showed the picture of my mate who's autistic. And, yeah, I mean, we went to school together. Yeah, Pete. Yeah, great guy, you know. And so it's not just, I mean, I did speak to clinicians, of course, but I also spent more time with other autistic people. And when I had time with them and with Pete over the years, it felt to me like when I would spend time with my old people that taught me, that mentored me. They had a different way of looking at the world. They had a different time, a different rhythm, a different space, a different way to see the world. And it was just like that. It wasn't necessarily better or worse or anything. It was just different. So I thought that's, to me, from my experience with my mate and with the time I spent with people and the clinicians sort of input, that's what I thought Taki Watanga was. My, his, her, their own time and space. I think that's the way to describe it because it was, like I said in the presentation, me and my, my mate here, you know, we go to the movies and he laughs at all the wrong moments because he's remembering something from 20 minutes ago and laughing at that. Yes. And, and it was just out of sync. That's all. And so surely that's a better way to describe it. Because when I spent time with the old people, if you could lean into their way of seeing the world, their way of perceiving the environment and the connection and, you know, it was, it was a different world. But it was wonderful. There was, there were pearls of wisdom. There was knowledge there that isn't accessible to you unless you do lean into it. And that's what it felt like when I spent time with autistic people. You know, I, I feel sorry for people that haven't, um, you know, had a, had a great friend like my mate Pete because they just haven't had that experience of these, these great people. And it was the same at school. I, I would hang out with them because there was truth there. There was honesty, you know, you didn't have to beat around the bush. You could just talk about what you want to talk about, no judgments, all those sort of things, you know. And I, I felt like everyone's missing out, but hey, at least I get to spend time with these cool people. 

James 15:26
And for the benefit of listeners, Keri showed us a picture of his, his mate Pete, who, as he said, he went to school with, uh, and Pete, um, obviously a wonderful person who is non-verbal and a hard, hard nose clinician like myself might describe him as meeting diagnostic 

Keri 15:42
So he's actually very verbal. He is verbal. Oh, you're very verbal. Um, but you know, clearly autistic, um, but such a great guy. 

James 15:49
Yeah. So a hard nose clinician like myself might describe, might, um, indicate that he meets diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder level three. And it pains me every single time I have to write that right level something. Uh, so that's what a hard nose clinician might describe it as. But again, as Kerry was saying, really, he wants the emphasis to be that, um, somebody who might meet criteria for autism is actually simply a person who's on his own journey, finding his own time and finding his own space. And it's, for me, it's a lovely way to think about things. It's also a sentiment, sentiment that really resonates with the, the wonderful presentation, presentation we had from our keynote speaker this morning, Rachel Callender, who spoke of her wonderful daughter, Edie, who's now passed away. Um, and it's really that exact same reference. Yeah. There might be all these medical issues going on. Um, but Hey, what a wonderful journey. Um, and allow that person to have, uh, find their own time, find their own space and find their own delight. 

Keri 16:46
Yeah, well, he, he's a great musician. So yeah, you know, we, we would go to things that he'd play, you can play any instrument, knows all the words, knows all the chords. So, you know, I just thought, why don't we concentrate on those things that he's amazing at and that everyone's amazing at. You know, you can, you know, you can, you know, that strength based, um, evidence. Let's look at that. So, uh, with whai kaha, with being, um, you know, the, the word for disabled is actually enabled, otherly abled. Why don't we look at that? Why does it always have to be, you know, unfortunately a medical model and clearly a deficit model? 

James 17:26
Um, and I should also mention to the listeners that I think Pete was probably a pretty lucky kid at school. Cause it sounds like he had a mate, Keri, who had a pretty strong sense of injustice and would step up every time Pete got, uh, got threatened by some of the other kids. 

Keri 17:39
Look, I just have to tell you, I hated it. You know, I mean, I just, I always thought you show how tough you are by taking on somebody twice your size, not four big guys beating up an autistic kid. And it just did, you know, I think part of being Māori was that you were, you know, oppressed in your own land. You know, I, I was beaten for being Māori. So when I saw things like that, I did think it was, um, injustice right there. So I would stand in the way so you come through me and they would all disappear, even though there's four of them, you know? So I, I just hated that. And it made me really, you know, like my mate even more. 

James 18:20
I, you know, I've heard it said that boys and men only have one fear and that's a fear of weakness. And, um, and I often think that the people are doing that, whether they're, they're lashing out at bullies or in domestic violence situations, it's actually, um, it's a really misplaced sense of fear, fear of being weak, that they, they, they think they're actually doing something tough and they've got a really, really false concept of what constitutes tough in them. 

Keri 18:44
And, and, you know, and absolutely. And unfortunately knowing those things doesn't help you when you're getting beaten for being Māori or for being autistic. Absolutely. 

James 18:54
Yeah. All right. Fantastic. Now you also told us you, you had a, had a brief meeting with the Australian prime minister. I think the emphasis is on the word with brief. Is that correct? 

Keri 19:03
Well, I mean, it was pretty brief. It was, we're going through, um, you know, she had to take pictures with different people and give out awards and things like that. So yes, I did, uh, I did encounter, uh, Julian Gillard. Yeah. 

James 19:15
Yep. Yep. And did you, did you get much of a feel for her in that time or? 

Keri 19:19
Yeah. I mean, uh, amazing how, how little time it was, but I think I kind of summed it up. Yeah, so I mean, she, she was all for the cameras, um, looking at, you know, I know, I don't know if I'm a madam, so, Hey, maybe I've got this wrong. I only had my one minute with her or whatever, but she certainly had the smile ready for the camera. But, um, when I was wearing indigenous wear and, uh, an indigenous garment called a pew pew and, um, and the way she sort of looked at me and said to me, what's that mate? it was like, you know, what, why are you wearing that weirdo uniform type thing? 

James 20:01
You know, apologies on behalf of a nation. 

Keri 20:03
Well, and it, and it, it, it, it, one, it felt racist, but two, I also heard her speak before, you know, sort of the, the presentation and she did that kind of painful, um, I want to acknowledge, you know, country and all that. Um, and, but, but not knowing who the people are. So, you know, to me that is again, racist, and it's just not, it's not real. You don't really mean it. If you meant it, you would say, I want to acknowledge the, you know, indigenous people of that place. You would go to that point of researching that or having your minions research it or whatever. That, that's what I would expect. But we didn't get that from her. Um, and yeah, it wasn't a pleasant encounter, I have to say. 

James 20:52
Wow, it's really, really interesting. Um, all right, listen, you, you presented a video, a case vignette on video of a, of a, of a parent, a father that you've worked with. Um, and he too had, had a child who, um, ultimately was assessed as meeting the diagnostic criteria for autism spectrum disorder. The powerful words that he used in describing sort of the, the mental hell, if you like the mental distress that, that he and his partner went through is that, you know, when they first noticed that things weren't right was, um, the words he used were. Um, they looked their child in the eyes, um, and they saw nothing looking back. Um, and really he was in tears as he described that for us as an audience. And again, really powerful words. And for all of us listening to the, to this podcast, um, it's an experience that many, many of our parents will have had, certainly for those with severe autism or, or, or, or severe other, you know, severe conditions of other types. Um, that feeling that, oh my God, it's almost like my child's not, not there. My child was vacant, really powerful words. Um, but for me, the take home message of what he was expressing is he was so grateful to you. So appreciative for you. Once he got that idea wrapped around his head that, Hey, no, no, forget about what this, this term autism spectrum disorder, forget about this medical term. Your child's just working his own journey, finding his own time and finding his own space. And wow. What a powerful difference that made in almost like 180 degree rotation of the parents mindset. Wonderful for the parents, but wonderful for the young person as well. Yeah. I'm probably making a comment more than a question there, Keri, because it was a pretty powerful video, but I'm not sure. Do you have any, any further comments you'd make about that? 

Keri 22:40
Um, I mean, I, I played that video because, you know, that's from a whāna, that's from a family, that's from a parent. And, and, and, and he's very articulate about what he went through and how the word taki wātanga just changed everything, re-imagined what that could be. And his son's proud of who he is to go from, you know, such depression, because they, they were in a bad state. And so many of us do go through that, but taki wātanga and what it represents and how I've sort of tried to put it across and make it clear. It, it really does. It's almost like it gives you permission to think about this in a different way. And it did for him. And, you know, he literally says the words, I, I can't say that one word changed my life or saved my life or our lives, but in a way it did, because they were, they were, you know, going down a very dark route there. Um, and, and I, I meet people in the street that shake my hand and just say the same thing. Thank you for coming up with this word that we can relate to, especially, especially indigenous peoples, but not only indigenous peoples. So, um, you know, it's taki wātanga, the, my word for autism has gone around the world so many times and I still get, you know, emails from all around the world, Russia, Argentina, especially Argentina, um, where they just say, thank you for coming up with, in essence, a, a non white word, a non, you know, diagnostic sort of tool word. And all those sort of things, um, non-medical model. Um, and they can relate to it and it's, it's literally changed people's lives. I mean, I'm so glad, you know, I, I wanted to try and do that, you know, that's, I don't know how to cure cancer, but I can do this and it's helped people. So, um, and it's continuing to help people. So, um, I'll keep doing this and, you know, and as long as I can. 

James 24:42
Wonderful. And listen, you've been very generous with your time. We're finishing off with all of our, all of our guests who are interviewing. We're finishing off with one question. And to be honest, you've probably addressed a lot of this as you, as you've been speaking, but the question is, um, if there's one thing that you can do today, one intervention you can do today, or one thing that you'd be sharing with us, paediatricians and psychologists and speech pathologists, one thing that you think we can do today, or that you can do today, that will still be changing a child's life in 10 years from now and 20 years from now. What do you think that might be, Keri? 

Keri 25:16
I think that, you know, probably a number of things, but I've just had someone come up to me and say, after that presentation, you, you don't get paid a hell of a lot for doing this. What can I do? What can I do to help? We need this. So, um, you know, they've just said to me, Hey, um, we'll make contact and I'll do whatever I can. So, you know, I mean, a practical thing is that, um, there is funding, there is resource. There is something there that can help with this work because, you know, mainly I, I do it voluntarily because it's important. The co-papa is important. The, the journey, the reasoning is important. Um, but, and, and sometimes, um, people pay me for this sort of work with artwork and candles and that's lovely, but it's really hard to eat candles. So, you know, um, having an income that just is enough to survive on so I can do this sort of work would be really, really handy. I'm not asking for a hell of a lot. I'm just saying, you know, if it's not me, it's, it needs to be somebody else. So there needs to be thinking about future funding. You know, if, if I get hit by a bus tomorrow, there isn't anybody taken over. So, um, it would be great to be able to train people or, you know, any, any sort of things. I think somebody like, uh, Tudokoa who spoke on the video, he's just got his interpreter's license. It would be great to be able to fund him to do some of the work that I do. So something like that, perhaps. 

James 26:53
Well, Keri Opai, it's been my absolute pleasure and honour to, um, speak to you and interview you today. Thank you on behalf of the ASDP for speaking at the conference and for contributing to the podcast and to the listeners of the podcast. I hope you've, um, hope you've enjoyed everything that, um, you've heard from, uh, Keri today. Thanks, Keri. 

Keri 27:09
Thanks. Kia ora.