The Media Tension Every Church Leader Feels | with Phil Cooke & Dan Wathen

You're not trying to build a platform. You're trying to steward one. In this episode, Dr. Jeremy Dixon and Phil McMichael sit down with Hollywood producer and media consultant Phil Cooke and executive producer Dan Wathen — two men who've spent decades helping the world's largest churches and ministries communicate the gospel more effectively. In this conversation, they get honest about what a media-driven world actually demands from the church, why your story is your most powerful tool, where AI fits and where it doesn't, and why the goal was never performance — it was always stewardship. Whether you lead a media team, run your church's Instagram, or just have a phone with social media on it — this one's for you. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I encourage people that it's not about performance, it's about stewardship. How are you stewarding the calling and the message God's given you? And we have these amazing tools out there. And you're right, some people get a little over the top and it's all about them. It's not about them, it's about Jesus. It's about what Jesus is doing in the lives of people, including you.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome to the Rise Leadership Podcast, where we're equipping and inspiring the Crosschurch leader. Whether you're a dream team volunteer, a seminary resident, or a staff member at Crosschurch, this podcast is designed to help you grow spiritually, lead with confidence, and make a Christ-centered impact in every area of your life. Each episode aims to guide you to rise in your calling and empower those around you. And now, here's today's episode.

SPEAKER_04 0:45

Welcome back to the Rise Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Dixon. I'm joined by my co-host, Phil the Secondary, McMichael, today. You're going to find out why it's Phil the Secondary today. But uh, Phil, you're the secondary, but you're number one in my heart.

SPEAKER_05 0:59

Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, and thankful to be the secondary today because we have two incredible guests with us. That's right. Cross Church family and rise listening audience. We are so grateful that you're dialing in today. This is going to be a really, really great episode.

SPEAKER_04 1:13

Uh, today's conversation is one I've really looked forward to for a long time. As soon as I knew that these guys were coming into town, our guests have spent decades in Hollywood producing, directing, consulting, but have never left their faith at the door. They have helped some of the largest ministries and churches in the world think more creatively and communicate more effectively and efficiently. Uh, we're honored today to welcome Phil Cook and Dan Wathan to the Rise Leadership Podcast. Let me say a little bit about Phil and a little bit about Dan. Uh Phil Cook is a Hollywood producer, filmmaker, media consultant, founder of the Cook Media Group. He's worked with some of the biggest names in both entertainment world and the church world. And Paul Liaison uh said he's rare and the only producer who holds a PhD in theology. So Yeah, that's it's strange.

SPEAKER_02 1:59

It's strange.

SPEAKER_04 2:00

Yeah, strange, or maybe rare. Yeah, I like the word rare better there. Uh author of multiple books, including Ideas on a Deadline, um, which was really great that I read a while back. And then we also have executive producer Dan Wathan, or as I learned today, um Dan the TV. Dan the TV man. It's easier to say. You almost need like a little jingle to go along with that. Let's do it. Um with more than two decades in media. Um, Dan has worked with just many of today's largest churches, ministries, nonprofits, and production companies in the world. And so, guys, so thankful that you spent some time with us today on this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

We are honored to be here. We'll have some fun. Uh, this I'm looking forward to this. This is great.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

Well, we're fired up, and we like to start this episode with a little fun, or at least in our minds, it's fun. Um you guys have been on so many countries and so many, you know, all the continents you filmed in. Um, but we heard one story that that uh Phil, you is it true that you fell out of a helicopter? And can you just give us any details unless unless your counselor is not ready for you to do that yet about falling out of a hell of a hell? Still in therapy.

SPEAKER_02 3:08

Yeah. Well, I you know, uh we fill you're right. We filmed in about 70 countries around the world, so things happen. And this is long before the age of drones. So I was filming, I did been asked to film a big evangelistic event in the National Stadium in Jamaica, in Kingston, Jamaica. And uh, as the day was going on, it was filling up and filling up, and I thought, my lord, this would be fantastic if I could shoot it from the air. So the only in those days, the only helicopter on the island of Jamaica was owned by the Red Stripe Beer Company. So I went racing across the island and I literally talked them into giving me their helicopter for two hours. And they had a guy that wasn't rigged for photography, so we took the door off and they tied me in with a rope. And this is the day when big cameras were big. So I sat on the edge with my feet on the little runners outside, had this camera, and what we didn't notice was the pilot left a loop in the rope. Didn't we didn't, he wasn't really paying attention. And so we took off, he turned sharp to go out over Kingston Bay towards the stadium, and I literally just slid right out. And I'm dangling by the rope under the helicopter. You know, you you get right with God in those moments. Like I say that. And but it's funny, all I could think of think of was keep the shot in focus. Just keep the shot in focus. But he saw it and um he jerked it the helicopter really hard to the left, and it threw me back in. I I'm glad he didn't jerk it harder. I might have gone up to the blades, but he threw me back in, and man, I tightened that thing fast and went out, and we got some great shots. But yeah, though you had just when you're in the filming world, you have to be ready for those unexpected, horrifying moments. They happen.

SPEAKER_05 4:40

Yeah, and you were you were more worried about the camera, like losing the camera than you going into the ocean.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, I was well, that's just what you think. You know, I'm thinking I gotta get this shot. So uh yeah, it was pretty funny. If I should say funny in retrospect, those are things you don't tell your wife till long after it's over. Right. But uh yeah, funny in retrospect. She'll find out on this podcast.

SPEAKER_03 5:01

Yeah, she will. Dan, do you have anything that you like to add? I don't think I can beat that story. So ads on that one.

SPEAKER_04 5:07

I feel like a good one for you is just how did y'all get to know each other, Dan?

SPEAKER_03 5:10

I started out in church media at my home church as a teenager, and over the years I worked for a couple of different churches. And I would read books by a man named Phil Cook, and I really resonated. I'm like, this guy gets the problems I have, and he he can help me. So I would teach it to my crew and uh and et cetera. So over the years we finally got to meet, and uh Phil's kind of been a mentor to me, and now I get to work with him and his company.

SPEAKER_04 5:35

Obviously, the people who listen to this, they're church leaders, a lot of them are our staff, a lot of them are our dream teamers, our volunteer base here at Cross Church, and even some of our just members that just want to learn what's going on behind the scenes at Cross Church. But then we have a lot of other people, a lot of pastors, leaders who listen, they're just connected to us. What do you feel like is the one thing that they need to know about Phil as uh we're getting this thing kicked off of how Phil can help that listener today?

SPEAKER_03 6:02

Phil anything that we talk about, anything that Phil talks about is applicable for any department. Yeah, you know, uh we happen to specialize in media, but this can work for uh someone in leadership, an executive pastor, uh usher, anything. It's thinking differently and thinking at a higher level and how we communicate, everything communicates, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:21

Yeah. I I think what I I was really excited about is just the tensions. Yeah. Oh yeah. In this topic today, there's a lot of tension. Um I I even think about the tension in kind of getting into the topic here. Um, me and my wife uh had a fun little exercise argument of would Jesus have had social media? You know, in today's time, would he have? I think there's a lot of great reasons that he might have. I think there's a lot of great reasons that he might not have. Um, but I think this whole topic of media and it comes to church, it comes to production level, it comes to intentionality, it comes to, you know, trying to just build a platform or you know, uh exploit the platforms that we currently have. There's a lot of noise out there. Yeah. And so I'm really excited to talk through just those tensions. And so, Phil, even as I'm just talking about that tension, what are the things that you hear the most often as you you know, whether you're consulting or you're doing, you know, writing a book, what are the tensions in this space that you hear the most?

SPEAKER_02 7:17

Well, I think we have to go back and start with the fact that we do live in a media-driven culture. Yeah. Uh the world has changed in the last 10, 20 years dramatically from certainly when I started my career. And uh, we live in a world today, one British study indicates the typical person sees 10,000 media messages every single day. We're literally being overwhelmed with media. And it's happened relatively quickly. For instance, if you read seven days of a daily newspaper, I know most people don't read newspapers anymore, but if you read that amount of content, seven days of a daily newspaper, you've read more information than most people a hundred years ago read during their entire lifetime. So the c it's just amazing. In fact, Google released a study, a really interesting study about a year or two ago, that if you took all the information, all the writing, all the art, all the music, all the data, all the information created from the year zero to the year 2000 today, we create that amount of information every two days. And now with the advent of AI, that's even gonna grow and increase. So the fact is, people are being overwhelmed with media, overwhelmed with information. And that's the context of the world we live in. So if we're gonna be effective at sharing the gospel, we need to understand how to navigate that world. Yeah, it's not a world that my dad, when he was a pastor, dealt with, but it's a world we live in today, and we just need to understand how to do that. And it really does matter. Doesn't mean you have to be on so, you know, all social media platforms, doesn't mean you have to do short videos, but you need to know why it matters. Uh and and pastors, think about pastors for a minute. You know, someone like Pastor Nick went to seminary for what, four, six, eight years, they study. They never teach them about media, they teach them about how to lead a church, how to preach, how to, how to, you know, evangelize the world. They don't teach them how anything about media. So I feel like it's our job to step in and talk about okay, how do we take your message and how do we make it more effective by using media, get it out there in the world? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 9:05

Yeah, that's great. So you I think a lot of people listening today, they're trying to wrap their minds around what that means right now in a media-driven world. Yeah. But we were talking earlier about how the churches the church has really been on the forefront of using whatever means are ready uh are available to them to get the gospel out for the in the history of the church.

SPEAKER_02 9:26

Can you talk a little bit about what you were sharing? We forget that the apostle Paul used the technology of his day, which was letters, to build the foundation of the church. And also the other technology of his day, which was interesting, was Roman roads. And he used those very, very well to build the foundation of the church today. Uh in the 1500s, an obscure monk nobody had ever heard of named Martin Luther, he used the the the printing press had just been invented. He seized on that and really created what we call today the modern publishing industry. It's funny. When when Martin Luther was alive, the cover of a book was just the handwritten title of the book. That was it. Okay. Well, he hired the greatest artist of his time, Lewis Cranick, to create actual book designs and book covers. Um, he he just he started writing in German. Most church leaders at the time wrote in Latin. Nobody was reading Latin except other church leaders. So he started writing in German and he literally became the best-selling author of his day. In the 1900s, um, the American Bible Society in New York City had more state-of-the-art steam-driven printing presses than any publishing company in the world. So throughout history, Christians have taken the lead when it comes to technology, media, and uh, I think today we need to seize that. We need to think about okay, what can we do? Because, you know, it it's all about getting the gospel out there. Yeah. And so if we can do that more effectively with media, let's do it.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

Yeah. Uh, you know, Jesus himself was really intentional about how he communicated, right? Yes. Um, he used the tools available, he used stories, he used miracles, he used public spaces, one-on-one conversations. And so, what does intentional conversation and communication look like today when we have genuinely unlimited platforms and probably one is gonna come out tomorrow, you know? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:09

Like what does that what does that look like? One thing I try to remind people of is everybody has a unique story. I don't know what you you may be a pastor, you may be a ministry leader of some kind, teacher, you may sell real estate, you may sell insurance, whatever it is. There's millions of people doing that. There's millions of pastors out there today. But if you want to become unique and really get noticed, integrate your story into what you do. I'm stunned, and I I'll talk about this at the business summit. I'm stunned at the number of business leaders that never think about integrating their story, where they've come from, what they've learned, what their past is like, how they got into this business. People don't think about integrating their story into what they do because if you do that, suddenly you become the only real estate agent in the world with that story. You're the only salesman in the world, you're the only pastor in the world. So I just think that your story matters more than, you know, people come up to me and say, Phil, nobody cares about my story. I've lived a pretty boring life. I just absolutely believe somebody out there needs to hear your story. Um, and that's we know that's what really changes people's lives. I can tell you, doing videos for a living, short videos, we've discovered personal stories, testimonies, we call them in the church, are the most powerful thing you could do on video. They're just people that people don't want to button, they don't they don't want to know how many people got saved at your church. They don't want to know how many people you fed, housed, what you know, what they don't want numbers. They want to see the story of a life transformed because of what you do. Yeah. And that's that's a powerful, powerful thing.

SPEAKER_05 12:34

Okay, as you talk about that, like my my mind goes to AI. Yeah. Because we're there's so many ways that we're discovering we can use AI to help us with with this mission that we have. Um, but the one thing AI cannot give you are authentic stories of life change. Um tell, tell, talk a little bit about how you've seen churches and believers using AI to help with the mission of equipping saints for ministry, discipling believers, or even just reaching lost people with the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

There's so many powerful tools. You know, we're at the stage of AI, we're we're at the terror stage. Every time a new technology is introduced, we always get nervous about it. That's understandable. But I also see on the other side the powerful, powerful implications of these things. For instance, we work with a church in Texas that the minute the pastor steps off the stage after his message on Sunday, within 20 minutes, that media director has uh a study guide created based on that message. He's got little clips uh made for social media already done. He's got a whole series of posts he can put up about it, and that's all AI. And it's just taken the, it hasn't created anything, it's just taken the material and adapted it to all these formats. So there's so many ways. I've been experimenting with writing with with AI, and we want to be careful. We want to make sure it's your story. Um, AI's lied to me a few times on things. You have to be really monitored, you have to monitor it. And the truth is, what concerns me about about AI is it's pulling from everywhere. It's not a walled garden. People will say they have a Christian version of AI. Actually, you can't control where it's pulling stuff from. Yeah. And so you have to be very vigilant and very aware from a theological, doctrinal perspective. That's important. But the fact is, it can help us do things that as a as a producer and a writer myself, it's all the stuff I didn't want to do. You know, it's all the legwork. It's all the stuff that just, you know, I want to come up with the creative ideas. I want to tell the stories. I don't want to have to come up with how we adapt that to social media and how we do this and that. So I think if we look at it objectively, it could be very, very powerful.

SPEAKER_04 14:37

I think you, you know, you already touched on one of the tension points is the terror, right? Terror, yeah, absolutely. So talk to the person who just is scared. Yeah. And they're like, you know what, this is scary. I don't have even time to look into this. Let's just opt out. Talk to the talk to that person.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

You know, it's interesting to me. Here's something worth talking about. Overseas, Christians are absolutely fascinated with media. I pro at any given moment, I have 10 or 15 invitations to come and speak to Christians all over the world about media. And they're far more interested than Americans are. I'm fascinated by this. And and my wife and I launched a nonprofit called the Influence Lab in InfluenceLab.com because we're trying to raise money to help make that happen. And we've spoken, I'm getting ready to go to Jordan in the Middle East to teach Middle Eastern producers, which is kind of, you know, kind of dangerous. We've been to India, China, we've been all over the world teaching media. So it is interesting that Christians are embracing this. But as far as the terror is concerned, I think we just have to be really objective about this and start looking at the pros and the cons. And I'm big, by the way, on being cautious. You know, I'm not running headlong into anything. I think caution does matter. But I think if we really look at it seriously and think about, okay, what's the end result? But great example is marketing. Marketing has always been a bad board in the church. But the definition of marketing is getting your product or your idea in front of as many people as possible. That's the Great Commission. Let's do it. You know, let's do it. That's the whole point. So I think that if we really stop and take a breath and look at it objectively, I think we can start coming up with ways that we can use this to advance the cause of the gospel that can be very powerful.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

Do you have people who, as you say that, you know, all right, marketing, uh, I know branding is a big is a big thing that you've you know written about and spoken about and gotten a lot of hate a lot of hate in the past. And maybe more people are understanding now than when you you know started in this whole direction. But um again, here's where the tension point comes in is the person who's like, Well, why are we doing this? We're a church. Yeah. Don't we need you know Jesus he he he didn't try to build his platform, he didn't try to market, he was a terrible marketer. You know, he was you know, just when it kind of got good and the momentum's going, he just retreated and where'd he go? So actually, that's a marketing tool.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Yeah, I mean suspense.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Yeah, Bill was brilliant. And you know, we often talk about Jesus communication techniques. Jesus was a you mentioned it earlier, he was brilliant at telling stories, he understood the power of stories. Number two, the thing that I always think about Jesus, he would ask a question and then just drop it and walk away. And he just made people stop and think. He didn't answer everything. In fact, it's funny, he would tell stories and never explain it. Never explain it. Sometimes the disciples were so thick later by themselves, privately, he would explain what it was about. But for the most part, he would tell stories and walk away. Most pastors pastors today just aren't willing to risk the power of a story, they have to explain everything. But the reason Hollywood has become so influential, the reason media has become so influential, is it's the power of a story. If you look at Hollywood box office results, television ratings, it's always the dramatic story programs that get the highest ratings and have the biggest audiences. So yeah, Jesus was a masterful storyteller. And as you mentioned, sometimes when the crowd was the biggest, he would withdraw and be alone. And I think that even made his his stock go up in many ways. People were, who is this guy? What's he about? And um, so yeah, it's it's it's an interesting thing to study that. All right.

SPEAKER_04 18:14

So for the person who is opted out, let's just say. So whether that's a church, it's a pastor, maybe it's even, you know, we have a lot of great business leaders who are church members here at Cross Church, just this area, right? Um, maybe, you know, to you, Dan, somebody who's opted out, now they listen to Phil here, you know, your mentor, um, and they're like, all right, I'll I'll try it out. I I'll get started somewhere. Where is the best place to start? So if you're gonna start in all the different platforms and all the different places to begin, what's kind of like your top three places that they should start checking out?

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Phil, excuse me. Phil and I regularly ask each other, how are you using AI? What have you found? What tricks and you know, how is it helping your life? So experiment. I use Chat GPT, uh Claude as well, but chat's great, it's easy. Just think of it as Google, just like you would go to Google to find some information. You know, we used to have encyclopedias back in the day. Remember that? Where uh family had to be through the secondary humanity. They were heavy, yeah. They were heavy. We don't have that anymore. Now we go to Google for the city. Those were books, Jeremy. They were huge books, huge books. But just like that, AI is is helping us things. Just like you might wear glasses, it's helping correct your vision. AI can assist us in what we're doing. So it could be easy task of uh pulling information. Hey, I want to fly and take a vacation to Europe. Give me some of the best places to to start. And once you start dabbling in it, you can kind of try other things. But just get in there and try something.

SPEAKER_04 19:48

What about actually media platforms? So whether it's social media places, you know, do they need to start on TikTok or you know, they need to start on, you know, what platforms would you say are the most important to maybe start?

SPEAKER_03 19:59

As an individual or church leader?

SPEAKER_04 20:01

Um either.

SPEAKER_03 20:02

In churches. Uh Facebook, Instagram, uh, would say are probably the most popular, but find one or two that work for you, especially if it's a church. Find two and r find a couple of them and really own it. YouTube's great. Instagram do a really great job of posting. AI is helping us post stuff even faster. I'm amazed at what we can do of taking a pastor's sermon, dropping it in, and it will within seconds give me 20 short clips that I can immediately put on Instagram or YouTube as a short. That would take hours of sitting through there real time, sure, trying this out. It's quite amazing.

SPEAKER_05 20:42

It's really great. And we're giving them, we're giving our listeners great uh first steps for people who don't know what the first steps are. Let's go to the other side of the pendulum for the for churches that may be all in. Are there any mistakes that you're seeing the church make who are who are who are all in and they're just trying to use every resource at their fingertips? And what are some of those that we need to be wary of?

SPEAKER_02 21:06

One of the big things I mistakes I see is, for instance, I was talking to the leadership team here yesterday about that in the media department, that that very often a pastor will step into the pulpit on a Sunday and preach on forgiveness, say, subject on forgiveness. Well, the next week, the social media guys tell a different story. The email blast that goes out from the church tells a different story. The guys releasing short videos tell a different story. It's like marching into battle and aiming your guns all in different directions. You make no impact whatsoever. The churches that really are influential and make make a huge impact out there are churches where the pastor preaches a message. The following week, social media echoes that message. The videos echo that message. The email blast that goes out from the church echoes that message. They're basically aiming all of their guns in one direction and they're blowing a hole in the culture. It makes an impact. So I say it all starts with a pastor. That's the point of the spear, and then make sure your message is trickled down, your messaging trickles down from there. I think that's the way to make the a really significant difference. We just need to get on the same page.

SPEAKER_04 22:05

I think another um I'm and I'm curious how much you see this. So to the church who's all in, you know, where's the line between excellence that serves the message and excellence that becomes the message?

SPEAKER_02 22:17

That's a big question. And I think I I we see that a lot. Some churches we go to that are so obsessed with technology and equipment and doing it well, but they just don't they're not telling a very interesting story. I think that I would much rather see uh a less equipped church, a church that maybe was, you know, a little rough around the edges, but telling authentic, real stories about people. Uh I was on the board of the Salvation Army for years and we were telling stories about people who had just come up from horrible, horrible backgrounds, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, uh, sexual abuse, all kinds of backgrounds, and they were powerful, powerful stories. You didn't need 8K video cameras to tell that story. You didn't need this studio to tell that story. So I think always the story is first. The power of that story is first and being authentic. And by the way, speaking of that, if I can, I would go back when you're talking about platforms, I would go back to think if you're a business leader out there, a ministry leader, I would stop for a minute and start with what is your story? What is your story? And start thinking about, okay, one of the most interesting things to me is in the collectible comic book world, the most valuable collectible comic books are origin stories. People love to know how Batman got started or Superman got started or Spider-Man got started. That's the same way in life. How did you get started? How did God encounter you for the first time? How did you accept Christ? How did you start your business? Where did the idea come from? How did you feel called into ministry? That's the place to start. You start with your origin story, how God pulled you from wherever you were and took you to where you are today. People are fascinated by that. So I say, let's start first, before we start thinking about media and social media and all this stuff, let's start with figuring out, okay, what is my story? And uh people are fascinated by that and they want to hear how God's transformed your life.

SPEAKER_05 24:04

That's so good. And you know, I I you all of us have testimonies. Yes, all of us have stories. Every single listener to this podcast, uh most of them, the m overwhelming majority are believers, which means God has given them new life. Yes. Which means we all have a tool. Yes. Um and so I think this connects with all of us. Um will you talk for a second to a typical church? Yeah. Maybe it's a typical church who has no media team. Yeah. They got a volunteer who shows up to do sound on Sunday mornings. Right. Um where do you start with? Let's say, let's just assume you got a couple of teenagers or young adults who may be media savvy. Right. Um, where do you start in regards to trying to get out a message uh in social media?

SPEAKER_02 24:53

You're you, you you, you, you nailed it right there. I yeah, I I found out years ago that when my Mac laptop breaks, I don't go to the Mac store, I find a teenager because they know how to fix it. And uh it's the same way. If I was a pastor of a small church or a medium-sized church and I didn't have a media team, I'd start with some young people in the church. But here's the thing: they need to know the DNA of your church. They need to know your passion and what God's called you to do. It's not just unleashing them to do their thing. You need to sit down with them, mentor them, bring them into the ministry, and talk to them about what message you're trying to share. That's really, really critical. But they do have the savvy. You know, you're not going to find a middle-aged guy uh who knows the kind of stuff they know about different social media platforms. But I think if you can connect with a younger person in your congregation or somebody you know, that's a great place to start. And I've seen it happen over and over and over again. And that usually grows to building a better team because those guys love that stuff. They love video and they love audio and they love all this kind of all these kind of things. So that's a powerful place to start.

SPEAKER_04 25:51

I think another place where people end up opting out a lot of this is they see the tension of let's just call it motive. Yeah. Of um, hey, you know, we really do need to get our brand out there. We really do need to share the message of the gospel. And then they get so worked up in trying to do that, then they are like, am I I think I'm just trying to look good and not focus on how to serve. So actually, now I'm gonna I'm gonna weigh back up to not, you know, even look like I have the wrong motive because now does it look like I'm hungry for likes, I'm hungry for this, but I really have good motives. And so they they get almost trapped in that um, you know, I want the right motives, but now do I not look like I have the right motives? And then they just are, I'm just out. Talk to the person who's there, trying to figure out how do I need to interact and engage in the culture, in media, in a media-driven culture, but they're like, but how am I going to be perceived? How do I check my motives? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

What advice would be good? I encourage people that it's not about performance, it's about stewardship. How are you stewarding the calling and the message God's given you? And we have these amazing tools out there. And you're right, some people get a little over the top and then it's all about them. It's not about them, it's about Jesus. It's about what Jesus is doing in the lives of people, including you. And so it's uh, you know, it's funny. I I tell people when I teach classes and I work at churches and consult about social media and other things. I say, whatever you do, disregard my Instagram account. My Instagram account is therapy. I just have fun with it. I just have total fun with it. And it's not about me, it's just about crazy signs I see and how poorly Christians sometimes express the message. And we just have I just have a lot of fun with it. And I think that's the key. Have fun with it. If you're not enjoying it, I don't think you maybe should be doing it. And by the way, for what it's worth, I don't, I don't urge every pastor or every leader to get involved in social media. If you're uncomfortable with it, don't do it. But I also would encourage you to dip your toe in the water, try it out. You know, maybe Facebook is the simplest thing because that's where most people's friends and family start there and start. And I would don't don't be so afraid to share your faith with people. I it's so it's funny to me that we live in a world where we're just terrified of sharing our faith with our family and friends. You know what? Be real. That's who we are. And God's done some amazing things. Let's talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 28:05

Yeah. A second ago, you you mentioned for uh for our pastors to find a person that they're investing in so they can put the culture in them. Yes. I I think that's part of our call, right? Yeah. We're pastors who equip saints for ministry. So why not and we all have limited time, but why not start praying today? And I would, if it were me, I would even make it a daily, I would put it in my prayer journal, start praying every day for 30 seconds. God, would you put someone who has marketing abilities who's in our church, would you put them in my path and let me start pouring into them? Yes. Just for the sake of discipleship. Because if you start discipling that person who has that gift, then they will start using that gift for the Great Commission and for the ministry of the church. And so I don't I think sometimes it's we overcomplicate it because we don't know how to do something, or we uh or we think we don't have the bandwidth to do something like this. I think it's just praying, God, show me the people I can pour into so that when they're equipped, they can do this work that I'm not that I'm not capable of as a pastor.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

That's good. And let me say this it just if you do this, if you get involved, for instance, in social media, just remember social media is social. So many pastors I know and so many leaders I've encountered will post something and just walk away and forget about it. One thing I've learned working in Hollywood is that whenever I talk to influencers, people that have millions of followers, they will always tell me, you know, Phil, I don't post until I know I can block out an hour afterwards to respond to the people who respond to me. And so you wonder why they have millions of followers because they're engaging with people, they're talking with people. I had a pastor call me that I don't want this to sound over-spiritual, but I had a pastor call me the other day from North Carolina, and he said, you know, Phil, I know you've hammered on me to talk to other people on social media, you know, after I post to stay with it, and I've never done it. But he said, last week, a woman responded to a post I did on social media, and it was about a Bible, a Bible verse that I was discussing. And so I felt led to respond to her. I did. He said, Lo and behold, that Sunday, she came to visit the church. He said, and lo and behold, at the end of the service, she came forward and accepted Christ. Wow. And he said, and lo and behold, on Monday, I got word that she'd been killed in a car accident. Oh my goodness. And he said, I don't want to sound over-spiritual or sensational, but he said, I just wonder, had I not responded that to her on that social media post, what would have happened? And obviously you don't have time to respond to everybody. We can't make it our life, but I'll tell you, when you start seeing stories about how it's the comments that make a different people's difference in people's lives, you want to make it a much more social, interactive thing. So enjoy it. Enjoy it. Talk to people and don't be afraid.

SPEAKER_05 30:40

Yeah. And I would add just a um a I think a a hint, uh, a moment of wisdom that God gave to my my wife and I when we were, I was a student pastor for a while. Um, we just opened all of our accounts together. So we had a Phil and Rachel McMichael Instagram, a Phil and Rachel McMichael uh Facebook, so that regardless of who wanted to communicate to the pastor, yeah, they were communicating to both of us. And that it made uh strict boundary lines where they were like they wouldn't cross them because they knew Rachel was on there with me, but also it gave her a lot of chances to interact um with people who wanted to be great idea to have communication.

SPEAKER_04 31:20

Great idea. Love it, love it. Guys, um, if you were gonna leave our listeners today with just one more thing and one more encouragement, one more challenge, each of you, what would you give?

SPEAKER_03 31:33

If you're a pastor media guy, don't wait till things are perfect to get on social media, to start posting. It's never gonna be perfect, and that's us inside just procrastinating. Get out there, start doing it. If you've got equipment, if you don't, it doesn't have to be perfect. You're gonna get better as you go. So just get in there. That could be with AI, utilize the tools that we have. One thing you can literally take your tra a pastor's transcript from Sunday, which our phones will now record and immediately transcribe it. You don't have to give it to somebody. Put that in there and say, I want Instagram posts, Instagram carousels, I want a blog post, an email blast, and within seconds, you have it. So it's amazing the tools that we have. That's good.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

I would say that uh uh, you know, God has a lot of attributes, and um, but he it's interesting that he chose to introduce himself in the first verse of the Bible as a creator. As a creator. Think about that for a minute, and we are made in his image. Um, you mentioned my book, Ideas on a deadline, that I wrote a couple years ago. I I when I researched that book, I discovered that all of us are born creative. You know, whenever I come and speak at like the summit here, I'll always have people that come up and say, Well, Phil, yeah, that was great. I appreciate it, but I just I'm not a creative person. I wasn't born that way. That's a lie. Every person was born creative. You look look at a bunch of toddlers cut come to church on Sunday and watch the talk. You know, you don't look at those and go, well, that guy's not creative, you know? They're all wildly creative. What's interesting is research indicates about age six, we start losing it. And it's interesting to me that in America, we start first grade and we start getting less and less creative. So you got to think of it like a muscle. You've got to use it. And also, the older you get, the more creative you can be. There's not a shred of research that indicates we get less creative as we get older. So here's the thing. That's great news for Phil, the secondary today. Well, here's the thing. Embrace the fact that God is a creator and we are made in his image. We need to be living a more creative life. I think ideas are changing, you know, ideas change the world. And so I think if each of us embrace that, I think we can really engage in ministry in an entirely new way, and it can have a huge impact on the people around us.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

There's a parable in Luke 16 that I read this morning. It's a parable of the dishonest manager. And there's this one verse, uh verse eight, that says this the master commended the dishonest manager for his shrewdness. For the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of life. And as you men have spoken today, it's just made me more convicted than ever of leaning in and asking God, God, what are we, what can we be doing that we're not doing that can help us to engage this generation? Amen. And so we're so grateful for the two of you. Thank you for being here with us. We're praying for you. That's right. Our church family and rise listening audience, we're praying for you as well. Let's lean in and let's make it a matter of prayer. God, help us to be more wise in using whatever you you've given us to steward to reach this generation with the gospel.

SPEAKER_04 34:36

That's right. I think, you know, I just want to thank y'all for that too. And you know, you really do sit at a very rare, you know, very rare, just kind of intersection, you know, Hollywood producer, theologian, church consultants. Um, but what I appreciated today the most is you're not telling churches, hey, just get better at media. Yeah. Just get just get better. Um, you're really calling us back to the question that Jesus always started with is who am I trying to reach? Yes. Um, and what do they actually need from me? Yes. What's my story? What where where has God positioned me? What's he called me to do? And what's the platform that he's given me? That's awesome. The stewardship. You know, you lean. Wherever you are, you have a platform. That's right. And for our listeners today, whether you are a pastor, you're a staff member, you're a volunteer running your church's social media, or you just have your own social media on your phone here today, here's what I want you to walk away with is stop asking, you know, how do you look good and start asking how do we serve? Excellence matters, platforms matter, but they're tools, just like Dan said, to be used for the mission. And so, Phil, Dan, how can people find you, follow you, keep up with what you're doing?

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Yeah, and and but even before that, let me say we work with churches for a living. This is a fantastic church. Cross is an amazing church. It yeah, you know, all the campuses, it's I I love Nick. I love the the team here. And so you you've got a great whoever is listening to this right now is involved in an amazing enterprise. This is just a fantastic church, and I think God's using it and in a very powerful way. As far as we're concerned, philcook.com is the hub of everything I do. I'm Cook with an E, P-H-I-L-C-O-O-K-E. And I'd encourage that's my blog, but you can get to my podcast and my books and all those things from there. So I'd encourage people to go there.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

What about you, Dan the TV Man? Dan the TV man. I'm most active on Instagram, but you can find everything there. Dan the TV Man. Man, well, I know that our listeners are encouraged today.

SPEAKER_04 36:25

And uh appreciate you guys be on the podcast. And if you're listening to the podcast today, if you have not liked it, you haven't shared it, and you haven't rated it, that just helps us to reach more people, you know? Again, not trying to just build the platform, but we're trying to just reach more people with the stewardship that we've been given by God. So thanks for listening today, the Rise Leadership Podcast. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Thanks for listening to the Rise Leadership Podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others in your ministry or community. Let's equip and inspire more leaders together. We'll see you next time on the Rise Leadership Podcast.