Behind the Book: When You Don't Know What to Do | Nick Floyd

You're praying for clarity. You're waiting for God to tell you what to do. But what if that's not actually what He's after? 

Dr. Jeremy Dixon and Izzy Hoffarth sit down with Dr. Nick Floyd — Senior Pastor of Cross Church and author of When You Don't Know What to Do — for an honest conversation about the seasons where you feel stuck and God seems silent. 

Nick opens up about why desperation can be the healthiest place you've ever been, the difference between health and perfection, and why the measure of spiritual maturity might not be what you think. 

The answer might not be what you're looking for. But what you find might be better. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I don't think the Lord's always concerned with clarity. He's concerned with the formation process. He's concerned with our desperation and dependence. And you know, if we're not careful, we make it all about we've got to know what we're supposed to do. And God's over here saying, I just want you to know me. And that's more important.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Welcome to the Rise Leadership Podcast, where we're equipping and inspiring the Crosschurch leader. Whether you're a dream team volunteer, seminary resident, or a staff member at Crosschurch, this podcast is designed to help you grow spiritually, lead with confidence, and make a Christ-centered impact in every area of your life. Each episode aims to guide you to rise in your calling and empower those around you. And now, here's today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Welcome back to the Rise Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Dixon. I'm joined today by my co-host, the one, the only Izzy, the balloon arch queen of Cross Church Hoffar. Come on.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Here I am. It's good to be here. I'm so excited. But more legendary than balloon arches, dare I say, is our one and only senior pastor, Dr. Nick Floyd, on the pod as he begins his worldwide tour.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yes, worldwide tour to promote this book. And I drove all the way from my house to the Springdale campus for this interview. This is the It is an honor. This is the first podcast I will do on the book. And it is to this point the only podcast I've been asked to do on this book.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Just wait. People will be taking numbers. People will be taking numbers to get on the podcast. But for those of you who may not know Dr. Nick Floyd, um, Dr. Nick Floyd serves as the senior pastor for Cross Church here in Northwest Arkansas, a multi-site congregation. He also serves as the founder and chancellor of Cross Theological Seminary. Dare I say I'm a fun new graduate. Yes. Um, which is a church-based seminary preparing men and women for ministry in the local church. He also has so much fun humor and stories to share with you in this book. So if you haven't picked one up already, you must on Amazon, on Kindle, or um in person. Yeah, that's right. Books are sold.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

And one thing that we got to add to his bio is now author, which is kind of kind of fun. It is kind of weird. Yeah. Yeah. Um, tell us first about just what led you to, yeah, what led you to become an author and how did God put in your heart?

SPEAKER_02 2:24

Well, I I really wanted to write uh for several years and have just been uh putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. And at one point, even reached out to somebody and did a book proposal that I thought really was good. And the response I got back based on what I'd written, I've described it as it crushed my soul. And it it uh it honestly just set me back for how long ago was that? Uh that was probably three years ago.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

And so it and it was nothing that person did. It was all it was all me. Um, but I really just kind of put it on the shelf, no pun intended. And um, and then really feel like part of this was an obedience to the Lord thing. And uh I just truly do want to write. And if that's just right for our church, yeah, I'm fine with that. Um uh so I I really wrote the majority of this probably two years ago that we gave to the church in one of the little journals during one of the series. Yeah. Um, but it was kind of themed differently, and so I I thought, well, I I just need to get over the hump. I need to get the first book out, and I've already done so much work on this. So I basically took what I had written, uh, rebranded it in a sense, kind of changed it thematically, um, and uh then added to it, uh, went through the whole editing process, which was you know interesting and fun all at the same time, and uh, and then released it through Amazon. So it's just self-published through Amazon, so you cannot get it wherever books are sold. You can only get it at Amazon.

SPEAKER_00 4:04

Maybe today.

SPEAKER_02 4:05

Or yeah, maybe today or any any copies that we have at the church that are left to be sold, but um but it's just uh self-published through there.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Yeah, and we've you've sold dozens.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

I mean, dozens is maybe a stretch, not yet.

SPEAKER_03 4:20

Uh hundreds for sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

No, that's awesome. I think even me and Izzy have talked about this, and many of our staff have already talked about this. Actually, I said it from from stage at our Faith Val campus. But one of the greatest things about this book, and there's a lot of great things, but if you don't know Nick Floyd, reading this book, you become to know Nick Floyd. Yeah, and then or if you know Nick Floyd well, you can hear every word. You you can hear his voice, you can see his you know, little funny faces at times, and uh that's even you know, that's just a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Yeah, I have heard that from people so far of man, I hear your voice, which is good. You know, I want it to sound like me. And I really wrote it with normal people in mind. Yeah, I didn't write it for, you know, seminary professors, I didn't write it for, you know, a lot of I just wrote it for normal people like us, like people that are sitting in our church. Like, I really just wanted to connect with the normal church member in our in our seats.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

Yeah. And coming from having just graduated from seminary and reading so many books, this was the first book I read after that you didn't have to read.

SPEAKER_03 5:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

And it was the best. It was so pastoral. And I was saying earlier, I was like, I feel like this is so cross-church and Nick Floyd coded, just all over. Like, if you have been part of cross-church, even for a year, like you just connect, you get it, you you you are really just like under the like you're you're in, you're in the just like the know of like, okay, I've heard this before, kind of like a parent who just has to repeat a few things to like kind of get it to click. It was it felt like that, very pastoral, very um just safe to be like, okay, I need to be reminded of these truths. And some things I was like, this needed to hit me today. Yeah. So it was it was so great.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Well, thanks. And it I I do think if you are a a member of Cross Church or you regularly attend a lot of this, you're gonna be like, Yeah, I've heard him say that before. Or the the thematic elements of this, like, yeah, I can tell that that's a heart string for him. Um, so yeah, I I've I've seemed to have hear that same thing from people so far.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

In my I did some research on leadership development and how what kind of um platforms or modes are the best modes of helping people develop. And the two modes were books, um, like on catching people, you know, when they're not in the meeting or you're not doing like a big leader retreat, yeah. Um, but it's books and podcasts. Yeah. And um our church didn't have really books or podcasts, and now we do, and I think that's a great, it's a great yeah, platform, if you will, of sharing with people what's on your heart. And because again, even if you're maybe a first-time guest at our church or you're at a church across the country and you're like, what's going on at Cross Church? This is a really easy, great read that you're like, oh, this is what Crosschurch is all about and what Nick Cloyd is all about. Yeah. Um so with that, let me let me even turn to just the general topic of the book, I think for our listeners. So the to the person who hasn't read the book and maybe they won't read the book, and we're gonna, you know, spoil some things here on the podcast. You know, the title is When You Don't Know What to Do, Why Desperation for God Matters More Than Clarity. I want us to start off, it's not necessarily much of a fun hot seat, uh, but with like a little hot seat question here of like tell us about a season of your life that inspired this in your own life. Like, how did this become your thing?

SPEAKER_02 7:47

Yeah. Honestly, I don't I don't know that I've I don't know that there was a singular moment, but I've had countless moments, if that makes sense, of and I think every person relates with this of I just don't know what to do right now. And I think that there's something that drives a desperation in your heart whenever that that thought comes in your mind of I just don't know what to do. And I think part of what the book um helps explain is you know, desperation can be unhealthy and it can be very healthy. Sometimes desperation drives you to unhealthy decisions of you know, looking for love through relationships and wrong manners or lead you to a bottle, you know, or just wrong things of desperation. And all of us have friends and family who have been in that journey and probably our own lives at times have been desperate in that way. On the flip side of that, and what I'm promoting in the book is you know, a sense of being unclear of what you need to do next is a perfect recipe for an experience with the Lord. That's so good. And really the desperation for God is where I'm pushing you throughout the you know, 120 or so pages. Um, so just FYI, if you're not a reader and you're like, I don't know that I can tackle a book, it's short and it's short on purpose. Yes. Um, so there you go. But I would just say over and over and over throughout the book, it is the sense that desperation is actually a healthy thing when you handle it with uh a viewpoint of I'm desperate for the Lord to move in my life. And I'll I even get to the end of the book, just a little spoiler alert, and I I say something like this you may be ending the book right now and you still don't know what to do. Yeah, and that may be frustrating to you. But really, what the book is all about is not getting you to a point of clarity because I don't think the Lord's always concerned with clarity. He's concerned with the formation process, he's concerned with our desperation and dependence. And you know, if we're not careful, we make it all about we've got to know what we're supposed to do. And God's over here saying, I just want you to know me, and that's more important. So that's that's the book in a you know, a little snapshot there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Yeah, and that's so good. And I feel like, again, throughout so much of you know our time under your leadership at Cross Church, one thing that you have said constantly over the years, if not the last decade, is uncertainty is always an invitation to deeper intimacy with God. And that's so woven throughout the whole book. I mean, you have a whole chapter on uncertainty. And um, I think part of what is so comforting about this whole premise of when you don't know what to do and and we're looking for what to do, I think it's the whole just like normalcy of all of us don't know what to do. There's not one person that has it all together. There's not one person who knows the right next thing to do, but the only right next thing to do is to seek the Lord. And I think that's so comforting to know, like, oh my gosh, the pastor, someone that we look up to so much, knows what it's like to not know what to do. And the only thing to do, which is the best thing to do, is to run to God in desperation.

SPEAKER_02 10:54

But I would say I live in not knowing what to do in with the queen in countless, in in countless areas of my life. I I don't know what to do here. But what I can do is seek the Lord. That's right. And what you'll find is there's there's a sweetness to desperation that you hate all at the same time. That's right. Um, but if you lean in, like you said, Izzy, it it really is a sweet time with the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah. My dad used to always say, I wish that God, which dates this, you know, this this right here. He's like, I always grew up wishing God would just send me a fax of what to do. Yeah and I'll do it. Yeah, just tell me what to do, God. And now, you know, modern day uh send me a text message and I'll do exactly what it says. So you it's good to start with that um of like Lord, I will do whatever you ask me to do. But then you still might not know what to do. Yeah. Um and again, what I love about the book, you read the title, it's like, yeah, I connect with that. I don't know what to do. Let me read the book and I'm gonna find out what to do. And then you get to the end and you're like, uh it's like I'm I want my money back. Yeah. But it's like, well, you know, and that's the whole point of what you're trying to ask.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

That's why the subtitle is almost more important than the main title. Exactly. Why desperation matters more.

SPEAKER_01 12:06

So make a make a little case right now of what you know, you've kind of we've touched on it, but make a case for why does desperation matter more than clarity? When everybody's looking for clarity, why should you be more desperate?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yeah, let me give a little caveat. I don't think it's wrong to seek the Lord for clarity. Yeah, no doubt. Um, but what I found is the Lord doesn't just send a text uh or write it in the sky of yes, take this job instead of this job. Like, um, what I do think is that he uses periods of desperation to give clarity, whether that's through people, whether that's through wisdom, whether that is, you know, in another route. Um, but what we we find at the end of that is we are formed more into the likeness of Christ by leaning into the Lord during times of uncertainty, as opposed to just um only seeking for clarity and for going from person to person to person to person, trying to get uh the right answer, which you know that's part of seeking wisdom, abundance of counselors, all that's biblical. But um, how many times do we run to people instead of run to the Lord? And so over and over again, um, I try to make the point that it really does matter more than clarity. It's funny, you know, you you said everybody relates with the the main title when you don't know what to do. Um, my brother-in-law, who you were friends with, he called me last night and he's like, Man, you know, uh, I had sent them a book. Yeah, and he's like, I met this guy who he was at a point where he didn't really know what to do. And so I I just gave him my copy. I said, I have not read it. I don't know if it's any good, but here you go. Spoken like a true brother-in-law right there.

SPEAKER_01 13:42

That's good. It's funny.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Well, I think that's what um, and and we'll probably talk about this a little bit later, but what I do love about every chapter as you kind of just discuss different aspects of when we don't know what to do, just different seasons of life that we walk through, different situations. Although the argument and the big premise of it is we don't know what to do, but we're seeking the Lord, there is a desire from just every person for something practical, for something, okay. What is a next step that I can do? And you did such a great job just providing that at the end of every chapter with okay, when you don't know what to do, do this. So it's not the answer to your solution, the answer to your problem, but it is a next step of, hey, when you don't know what to do with this, rest. When you don't know what to do with this, or trust. Whatever, whatever it is the chapter talked about. I I think it was such a great, just like almost a sigh of relief of like, okay, I have a starting point. I have a starting point when I just feel stuck.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

Exactly. And the Bible and many of what those are, if not all of them, at the end of the chapter are just biblical principles of that's right. Even though you may not have crystal clear clarity on this one decision, you can honor the Lord by doing this one thing.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

And and that ultimately may lead you to clarity. Um, but yeah, I tried to try to give um you know a practical at the end of every chapter, even while you're in the midst of a lack of clarity, you can do this right now. You can begin to do this, and it again, it may lead to further clarity, or it may just lead you further in the likeness of Jesus. And either one is a win right there.

SPEAKER_01 15:22

Yes, that's good. Let's go a little bit practical here on just let's say uh on the presence of God. I think that's the maybe the first chapter or so is talking about you're desperate for God's presence. Yeah. Um, so practically, how does a leader, how does somebody live that out, not just theoretically of like, yeah, I want to be, you know, in God's presence, but like what are some ways that somebody can do that?

SPEAKER_02 15:42

Yeah, you know, I really debated um even with I had several people read it and give me feedback, you know, in the manuscript. And that was one of my questions. I think it was my assistant, Jill Angham. Uh I I asked Jill, I was like, I kind of feel like I should move that from the very first chapter, because you know, if you're not from a Christian background and you're reading, you know, desperate for the presence of God in your life, it's kind of a slap in the face right away. Um, and I think I think it was her who said, No, I think you need to leave it. And in some ways, for the person who's never heard anything about the gospel to the person who's a mature believer for the past 50 years, um, the idea that even while you're lacking clarity, the presence of God can be all over your life. Yeah. And and you can uh focus on the presence of God. And uh, and I talk about the various aspects of of the what the presence of God means in your life. And so I'm I'm glad she pushed me to keep it because I think it really is a great starting point. And really, if you're desperate enough to buy a book like this, that sounds bad about my own book. But if if you're at a if if you're at a point of desperation, like, man, I've I've got to know what to do, it's almost like a a balm for your soul right off the bat.

SPEAKER_03 17:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Oh, listen, you don't know what to do, but there's a God who loves you and who is with you right now. Yeah. And so I I am glad that I listened to her advice. Yeah, you know, in the form of the change.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And because that's at the core of what everyone needs. We're all desperate for the presence of God. And again, something about why this is so cross-church coded is our people at Cross Church, we know, like we've we've heard you talk so much about the manifest presence of God. We've heard it, we've heard you teach on it, we've experienced it. And for the cross-church member or even the person who's attended cross-church once or twice, and they experience it and they recognize it, they're just like, oh, if that's what the secret is here, is that we're just seeking the presence of God, then I'm all in for the rest of the next 10 chapters.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

No doubt. And I think the presence of God um is often something that you can sense immediately. And you may be in for a years-long journey on clarity.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

And so, you know, there's it's a gift that God gives us where we've all experienced it. Whether you're in a church service and you sense the glory and presence of God, and you like your face needs to hit the floor, um, or desperate on a just a drive around town and you've got worship music playing, and just the spirit of God meets you in that moment. Like there is there's something about the presence of God that really is our helper, the Holy Spirit, yeah, coming and being that comforting presence in our lives. And so um, I do think desperation, when handled right, when handled healthy, and when you lean into the Lord, the presence of God is often the very first thing you experience in this whole journey, which is really a gift from God.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, yeah. I want I want to turn it to a little bit of a leadership lesson, I think that we've all learned from you, that even came out in the book is you lead from a place of just realness, rawness, authenticity, vulnerability. And that came out in the book pretty quick too. Yeah, um, talking about some experiences that you've had where you've really wrestled, some of them specific, like um, I think liberty, you know. Yeah. Um this is a fun side note. I uh I've just graduated from there, walked there finally. Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Dr. Jeremy Dixon.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

But um, you know, when we've been to Israel together, and in Israel, there's A-sites, there's B sites, there's C sites, and it's you know, this is exactly where this took place, and this is maybe where this took place, or just general area, and it'll be a C site. So I texted Nick from that little corner of the chapel in the that talks about in the book. Yeah, like this is an A-site right here. I'm I'm standing where Nick Floyd met with the Lord and begged the Lord from Meredith Floyd.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's no there's no exaggeration there.

SPEAKER_01 19:48

Yeah, that's good. But what I think is so powerful about how you lead is that humility, that vulnerability. Talking about this book, um, was any of that super intentional that you're like, I want to this book to be vulnerable, or is that just again, the outflow of just who you are?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

I don't know that I really um is honest. I I don't know that I set it out to be that way. Um I do just have a very real sense of who I am. Um and I don't mean that in a positive way. I mean that I I I'm very aware of my own faults, my own sin struggles, my own um desperation for my own need for the Lord on a daily basis. That I j there's I think there's a fear of God of faking that in a sense. Um I I really genuinely need the feeling of the Holy Spirit every day. And I I am a sinner just like every person listening to this right now, apart from um the grace of Jesus in my life. And so I I think sometimes people just think pastors are different and we've never thought a wrong thing or done a wrong thing or have temptation to do the wrong thing. And I, you know, hopefully I can set that straight of oh, we just people, just people, and um, we are as desperate for the Lord as every person listening to this. And so I I ri I I really didn't intentionally do that.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Well, let me double down on that then, because if you're a listener um and you know Nick, you're not gonna be shocked by that, but you're gonna be like, wow, I mean that's what makes just Nick and this church just special. I think if you don't know Nick or you don't know our church, you're gonna be like, oh yeah, well, I'm not sure what but like there's a lot of very um impressive things, and I think that's a unique thing about ministry in general. Uh it can seem impressive, you know Nick, you you look impressive, uh you look like you have it all together, um, despite that being true or not true. But then when you lead from that kind of point of you know where you're vulnerable. Where you're telling what's really going on. And when our pastor, our leader, our shepherd, um, who's doing a lot of really, really great impressive things, is this desperate for the Lord, what's encouraging is it leads all of us to be like, well, I, even if I do feel confident, should I be as confident and I need to be desperate for God more.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah, I think there's a um I think what I would say is that the people in our church, or really in any church, what people expect of their pastor is healthiness, not perfection.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Um, but they may have the perception that, well, they are perfect. They don't, I mean, they just wake up and want to read their Bible every day, and they spend eight hours in prayer, and you know, and they never battle any temptation. And and I would just say it could not be further from the truth. And so um, I think one area, you know, just that that hopefully I can share is yes, I I do think the the people should expect me to be a healthy person, healthy spiritually. Even if that means I'm I'm leaning in my own desperation because I know the wickedness of my own heart apart from Jesus. Um, so I I really do want to be a healthy person, and I would encourage everybody listening of I think health is a better goal than perfection because you're never going to reach perfection. But health sometimes looks like quick repentance. Um, I heard someone say years ago, I can't remember if I read it or heard it, but basically the measure of spiritual maturity is how long it takes between the actual moment of sin and your moment of repentance. Of how quick do you recognize and how quick do you respond to the conviction of the Holy Spirit of man? I should not have said that. Yeah. I should not have done that. And Lord, I'm coming back and I I repent of that. Um, so I think that's something that every Christian listening to this, we can we can strive towards health spiritually, and that is the furthest thing from perfection spiritually. And so hopefully something gets across in the book.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Yeah. So when you when you write these chapters, when you preach on Sunday mornings to our church, and you again, because you're just a normal person who battles the just the weight of sin and temptation. And you even mentioned in the book how Sunday evenings are the hardest for you. Um, how do you still push through, even through seasons? I mean, because there were seasons of your life in which you experienced just hardship and um just just despair. How do you still push to teach what is the right next step or and what is true while you're in the middle of, you know, did you ever get like imposter syndrome while you're writing these things of like, did I, you know, or or when you're preaching on Sunday, like how do you how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_02 24:47

Two things come to mind. Um, I think sometimes you preach better when you're suffering yourself. So I've I've seen that, which I'd rather just not suffer. But they don't care to be that good. But I I've seen that. But then the other thing, the second thing is more the imposter syndrome of man, how can I get up and say this when I know that I'm battling this?

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Um, and what I've what I've come to to believe is it's I think God honors a pure vessel. I think God honors a a man of God standing up who is living it outside of a Sunday morning. But it also I just have to remind myself, it's really not about me and my life, it's about the word of God.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

And if I only preach the things that I had mastered, yeah, I would not preach any of the Bible. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, that's so good. And so I I have to remind myself sometimes on Saturday evenings or Sunday mornings while we're in worship of like, man, this is really not about me. And you know, I sense my imperfection and all that, and it really just has to focus back on this is about what God wants to say to his people. Yeah, and I don't measure up anyway. That's why I meeted Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

So and that's such great encouragement to our people, to the listeners, to our church members, is just like what you said towards the end of the book of that's why your witness matters so much. Yeah, it's like not as you're not witnessing or sharing the gospel or sharing your story because you've figured it out, you're sharing what you've experienced through the Lord's grace and through God's truth of his word to be able to be a light and a witness to other people around you.

SPEAKER_02 26:27

Yeah, no doubt. The Christian story is not one of perfection. The Christian story really is one of desperation, yeah. Of I'm I'm not perfect. I never was perfect, and I'm desperate for a God to come in and save me and to change me. So um, we get that flipped off often, and we think we got to have it all together when no man, I I think we need to be pretty comfortable with acknowledging our own weakness pretty regularly. Yeah, it's good.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

All right, as we're kind of wrapping up, I want us to go back to the book and uh I want you to maybe pull out your table of contents if you need to. But what's your favorite chapter?

SPEAKER_02 27:01

Like if you if you Yeah, I know I don't even have to Oh, come on. Uh I think it's chapter two, I believe is what it was. The whole story about Jahasaphat. Yeah, um, I think is fat fat Jehasapat. Fat fat Jahasafat. We don't know if he was bat. We don't.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

And that people are like, what in the world are you talking about? Go read it. Now you gotta go read it, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

So the chapter is titled When I Face Uncertainty, and I tell the story of we were a few months um before COVID hit, and God led me to this passage, and I spoke at a cross church together, which is kind of a gathering of all of our campuses on this passage, and it was the principle that Izzy talked about earlier of any time you face uncertainty in your life, it's an opportunity for greater intimacy with God, which in some ways is the theme of the entire book.

SPEAKER_03 27:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

Um, and I remember I I gave the message that night, not having a fat clue what was about to hit the world, yeah, you know, several months later, that um was just really, really important for all of us to hear in that moment. It's good. Izzy, what's your favorite chapter?

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Um, I would say, of course I love that one. I mentioned it earlier. Um, dare I say my favorite chapter is the conclusion. Not because it was over, but because it really I've read books like that too, Izzy.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Like, praise God. I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Not because it was over, but because it really did just remind me of how badly I just need God. Again, more than just the clarity, more than just like being desperate for like, okay, but I just want the answer, or I just want the provision. Sometimes I spend so long just praying, like, God, would you just provide for this one thing? And then it doesn't happen. Yeah. And yet I miss out on the blessing that it was to go through the journey with the Lord. And then I get the thing and I'm like, oh, wait, actually, I was loving life just with Jesus, really just trusting him and and you know, experiencing him more than I thought I was gonna enjoy the thing that I got out of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

And so I I loved that because it really just put all the things from every chapter into realistic expectation of yes, I have things that I can do right now, but ultimately the prize is just being with God throughout the way and knowing that he has me throughout the way. That's the biggest gift is he has me.

unknown 29:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

And I'm not out of his control. This situation's not out of his control. He has me.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

Yeah. The silly thing is, is we we so desire clarity. And sometimes when we get to clarity, it's not what we want at all.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Uh, or or we so want a certain thing, and then when we get it, it's not what we want at all. And so the secret to, you know, the the various biblical stories I I share in the book is this is those people, you know, they got God is what they got. That's good. And that's really the answer of I I don't really care what your what your uncertainty is, yeah. But if you get to the end of the journey and you have gotten more of the Lord and you have uh sensed his manifest presence in your life, if you have grown deeper in your knowledge of God's word and of Christian maturity, you have won.

SPEAKER_03 30:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Even if clarity stinks, yeah, um, and the situation doesn't turn out the way you wanted it to, um there's that's where that sweetness of desperation comes back into play.

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, yeah. And it kind of bookends, like it's great bookends with like starting with the presence of God, ending with, hey, just a reminder, you're gonna get God when you're desperate for him, you'll get the presence of God.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah. I think all that just speaks so well into my life, even that as I read it, just like the Bible, how you can read it a million times and you're always, you know, God's gonna say something different to you than he might somebody else, and he might say something different to you now than he did when you read it, you know, last week. Sure. Um, my favorite was chapter five when um uh when God seems silent. Yeah, I think just because even in my own life, there's some areas of my life that I'm praying for. I'm like, again, Lord, send me a text message and I'll do it, you know. And I'm just you know, but I but I need to stay focused on yeah on that. And my I'm not sure if I'm reading into my own life and my assumption of all people, but I think that's a big reason why somebody might might want to pick up the book because drawn to the title. It's like I'm not hearing it anywhere else. I need answers. Yeah, there's no doubt. And I'm drawn to that. So let's wrap it up this way. Um, two things. Number one, it's it's really written to maybe individuals in crisis, maybe you could say, um, or just wanting more of the Lord or wanting to hear more, um, or just curious about what's going on in your life and in Cross Church. I think all that could be true. How could somebody use this book, maybe even with their team or a team that they're leading? Um, a lot of leaders listen to this book, Dream Teamers. How can a team utilize this as a resource uh for their next step of calling their people to be desperate for the Lord?

SPEAKER_02 32:10

I mean, it's an easy, it's an easy read, it really is. I wrote it very down-to-earth, bottom shelf type of thing that I think whether you've been a Christian for a long time or you are in a Bible study with somebody who doesn't even know Christ, uh, I think it's an easy little Bible study, honestly. Yeah. The chapters are are fairly short. I think there's 10 of them, if I remember right, where you could say, hey, we're gonna do a 10-week thing together and everybody read it before you come, and then all we're gonna do is we're gonna discuss it. And I think that's pretty easy um to do. I can I go back to the chapter five that you mentioned just for a second, the when God seems silent. Um I would just say that chapter is the representation of pain. Yeah. And one of the deepest, darkest seasons of despair that I've ever had in my life. Yeah. Where it seemed like God was silent. And like you mentioned, some of some people are desperate for God because they do feel like God's silent right now, and so they saw a random book of when you don't know what to do, and they're gonna pick it up. And um, I would just say that that chapter represents pain. Like I'll forever look at chapter five as dark and sweet all at the same time. That's right. Um and you know, what do I say? Hindsight's 2020. Spiritual hindsight is is better than 2020. And I have seen that God really was not silent, He was moving. That's right. Um yeah, we could do a different podcast on that one alone. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:59

Yeah. And I would say just as a thank you to you for one writing the book, but also just for the way that you live your life as a reflection of you really believe those things, you've experienced those things. And I think, and I think somewhere in the book you talk about the importance of having spiritual leadership in your life. And I think having resources like this book, having a church, having pastors, having people around you that that uh kind of function as that type of spiritual leadership in your life. Because when you don't know what to do, it's so easy to isolate, it's so easy to withdraw, it's so easy to either remove spiritual leadership or you don't realize that you're void of it.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

It's so important to put yourself under that type of spiritual leadership because it gives you perspective. It gives you perspective of like, okay, when I don't know what to do, it's because I can't see anything. And you kind of mentioned that, like I don't see anything, I can't even notice anything going on around me. And yet I'm gonna put myself under just the teaching of God's word, the things, the principles in this book that come from God's word about what I need to do or what I need to even think on, how I need to view this season of my life. And so I just encourage anybody who's listening to this again, like Pastor Nick doesn't have the answers to it, to all of this, but we know the one who does. And and if anything, this is just cultivating a attitude and a posture of let's look to the one who does. And so we're so grateful for that.

SPEAKER_02 35:24

Yeah, if you are the only voice in your life, that's a very dangerous place to be. Yeah. And um, that's why we need godly friends, it's why we need godly resources, you know, hopefully like this book or podcast. Uh, it's why you need a church. Yeah. It's why you need pastors in your life. It's why I have men in my life that I'm held accountable to. Um, because what we think about is often not right or the voice in our head is not always right.

unknown 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

And we don't know anything other than what it feels like to be in our own mind. Have you ever thought about that? Like so, you think your patterns of thinking are right. Right. And it's not until somebody else is saying, that is so jacked up. That's so weird. Why are you thinking that? And you need people just to like genuinely be honest with you. And so hopefully the book can be like you just look in the mirror and hopefully course correct some thought patterns along the way. Yeah. Um, because man, I know I need it, and I'm I know that you need it too. And so, you know, hopefully it helps.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Well, thanks for who you are, all that you do, and this book. Um, say again how people can find this book. So they're like, all right, yep, I'm in. I want to read this book, where to go.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

Yes, for those of you at our church, we may have a few random copies around, but I think we pretty much sold all that we um bought, or those are those are gone. Uh, really, because I published through Amazon, uh, you have to only sell on Amazon. So um, so yeah, so just go to Amazon, type in uh type in the title of the book. If you type in other things, other things pop up. So just type in the name of the book. I'll just leave it there in general. Um, you know, you didn't know that until you just yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

You learn that. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

You learn, yeah. Look at that, type it in. So yeah, we'll win the link in the when you don't know what to do, search that the exact book title.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

Yeah, Amazon, Kindle on Amazon. I got it on both. So there you go.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

Awesome. All right, so Roz family, uh, here's what I want you to just carry out with this today is the next time you don't know what to do, before you search for answer, search for his presence, and that's where everything starts. And I think that that's really at the core of Nick's book here. And it's the one thing that's freeing ideas in leadership in general. It's you know, before you search for answer, search for his presence. There's a lot of ways as a leader where you're looking for clarity. You're gonna look at a lot of different places, you're gonna look to a lot of different books or resources or people that are advisors. You have the Holy Spirit, use that to that first. So I think that's really helpful. Here's what the word of God says about that in Proverbs 3, 5 through 6. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, lean not on your own understanding in all your ways, submit to him, and he will make your path straight. Another one that came to mind was 2 Corinthians 12 10. When I'm weak, then I'm strong. So let's lean on the Lord today. Let's look to him and let's look to his presence. So we'll see another episode of the Rise Leadership Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 38:30

Thanks for listening to the Rise Leadership Podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with others in your ministry or community. Let's equip and inspire more leaders together. We'll see you next time on the Rise Leadership Podcast.