The Pipeline, Part 1: It Starts Here | Dr. Ryan Blackwell

What do you do when you can see a problem your organization doesn't know it has? 

That's exactly where Ryan Blackwell found himself as Executive Pastor of Cross Church — watching a healthy, growing church with campuses, baptisms, and momentum, and seeing something most people at the table weren't seeing: the leadership bench wasn't deep enough for where the church was headed. 

In this episode, Ryan walks us through how that conviction took shape and what Cross Church actually did to build a leadership pipeline from the ground up.  

And then there's the turn: Ryan recently stepped down as Executive Pastor of Cross Church to become the 11th President and CEO of Lifeway Christian Resources — one of the most significant leadership roles in Christian ministry today.  

This is Part 1 of a 4-part series called The Pipeline — built for every leader in the local church who wants to grow, develop others, and understand how leadership development actually works.  

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The leadership pipeline for Cross Church, it's an intentional process of identifying, equipping, and developing individuals in our church to take on increasing levels of spiritual leadership. You know, we want to help our team to move from leading themselves to leading others, which would really be our kind of dream team leads, our small group leaders. And then what the stuff that you guys are talking about is the actual leading of leaders, right? Where we have dream teamers that aren't just leading people, but they're leading other leaders that are leading people.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Welcome to the Rise Leadership Podcast, where we're equipping and inspiring the Crossford leader. Whether you're a dream team volunteer, a seminary resident, or a staff member at Crossford, this podcast is designed to help you grow spiritually, lead with confidence, and make a price center impact in every area of our life. Each episode aims to guide you to rise and power those around. Now, here's today's episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Welcome back to the Rise Leadership Podcast. I'm your host, Jeremy Dixon, and I'm joined by Phil, the father of the coolest seven and a half-year-old in Northwest, Arkansas, my dog, George McMichael.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

What up, George McMichael? If you're listening to this, hey, let me let's let the family listen to the whole podcast today before we change it to Forrest Frank. Rise listening audience, we are so glad you're here. Thanks for joining us. Today's episode is one that I think you're gonna want to share. And it is one that is really, really special to Jeremy and I.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

A guy that we love because today's guest is someone I've a lot I've watched lead with a lot of clarity and conviction in this space. And he's about to step into one of the most significant leadership roles in the country. But we'll we'll we'll get to that here in a second. But first, uh, here's a question I want to start with. So, what if you're leading an organization right now that thought it was fine, everybody else thought it was fine, you think it's fine, but you can see that it wasn't exactly where it needs to be. And what do you do with that? How do you help people see what you see? And that's where we're starting today. Because today is a historic day for this podcast, and people told us a guest of this caliber would never happen. Uh, advisors, they warned us against even asking. And some said, dream smaller. And honestly, they were right, but against all odds today, Dr. Ryan Blackwell back with us on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

Hello, everybody. I am excited to be here. The the world's greatest podcast. That's right. Rise Leadership Podcast. I I'm a big George fan, by the way, Phil. Massive George fan. He is the only guy that I'd rather be with in this room than you two.

SPEAKER_04 2:41

Yeah. If you're if you're in our listening audience and you don't know my son, George McMichael, um, just shoot, hit us up on the email. I'll try to figure out a way for you to get to know him. Best dressed seven-year-old you you've ever seen. He wears suits every Sunday. He wears sunglasses into class every day when Mrs. Lovell will let him. He's awesome, but we're not here to talk about him today. We are here to talk with you, Dr. Blackwell. We're so grateful for you. Uh, you've been here for over five years now as our XP here at Cross Church. In that role, you have served our pastor, Dr. Nick Floyd, by walking beside him as his friend, um, as his advisor. You've led uh our cross church organization under his leadership, really from the second chair. And uh it that's included oversight and alignment of our church with its four campuses, our compassion and feed the 479 ministries, prison ministry, our seminary, Shiloh Christian school. Um, and through all of that, you've really been a driver of culture, of unity. Yeah you've worked with our CFO for fiscal accountability. Um, and you've recognized over the years the opportunity for organizational depth that really is something that that we want to dive into today.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

Yeah, that's right. Because um, you know, we've seen this in you, Ryan, and you're a good friend of me and Phil. So this is really just special, you know. Um, this is a good time. But also, you know, you're a CEO now and big timer. You're big timer here. We swung swung for the fences here. Um, so excited to talk about what this looks like in a local church and leadership development that probably bleeds into a lot of other areas as well, but I think it's gonna be really helpful. But with that, we're gonna start with a little hot seat question. Oh man, come on. So, Phil, kick us off.

SPEAKER_04 4:29

That's right. Um, here's my question for you, Ryan. You were moving to Nashville. Nashville is the home of the stars, it's uh the Tennessee version of Los Angeles. Um as you have you started it to get your home of the Dodgers who you love, um as you as you started to wrap your mind around living in the Nas Vegas area, anyone famous that you've like got your mind uh set on that you're like, man, I hope I get to see this guy.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

That's a good question. Athlete, musician. I would say musician-wise, we're we're not like we're not the right family to move to Nashville for that. Rachel and I are not like big country music fans. So um I would I would say not yet. Yeah, not yet. My my daughters, I mean Carrie Underwood would be a big that'd be a big win. Dolly Parton, uh for my daughter May, big fan. So um, I think for Rachel and I, uh I think he lives there. Nate Bargazzi, I'd be I would be yeah, I'd be real excited to meet him. I'd I just think we'd be friends. So that that's who I'd that's who I'd be excited about. Would you approach him? Would you say for sure, for sure. If we if he's in the area, yeah, I will approach him. You went, What up, Nate? Yep. I feel like you could be boys. I think so too.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

I mean, same age, kids, you know, it's it would work. Yeah, that's good. All right, and then next hot seat question for you. If uh Phil and I were to become CEOs one day, what companies would we run and why?

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Wow. That's a good I I think you guys would be tremendous CEOs. Um Phil McMichael, I'm gonna go if any 90s rap label CEO positions become available.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Yeah, Phil would absolutely name three of those. I'm just gonna definitely start.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

So I would say that uh if Adam Sandler needs somebody to be a CEO of all of his movie distribution, I feel like Phil could do that. Yeah, happy Madison Phil. I mean, he is he's gifted, and then he he could shift and do parent discipleship. Like I think he he'd do something in that world. So maybe he should be the life way CEO, I actually believe. He could do it. Jeremy, um, Jeremy, for those of you that don't know Jeremy well, um, I don't think he could stick with anything overly too long. I'm gonna say a venture capitalist CEO, because that would give you the opportunity every year to go after something new and just do it every year. I love that. I think you'd kill it.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So I can't name any of those. So, Phil, can you name any of those right off the top of your head? Vit um So anyway, segment one. No, that's great. Uh thanks for that, Ryan. And uh, we're really excited about you in this next season. But I want to actually go backwards though, before we get into the next season, is you know, here you are, number two seat, XP here at Cross Church. And part of that role is really to look internally at all things, and you're trying to figure out what's broken, um, maybe what's not broken yet, but as we're growing uh quickly. Actually, do you know off the top of your head what kind of how we've grown since you've been here?

SPEAKER_02 7:25

I mean, COVID threw everything into a tailspin, but I'd it it would be really from about 6,000 people to, you know, this Sunday we were almost 12,000.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So almost doubled. So almost double. And and as you as we all know, as things are growing, things start to break. Um, it shows new opportunities that might be ahead of us. So I want to go back to really a question I I asked you um a number of years ago. I said, what is what is a one of one of our greatest problems we have across church? And uh what's funny is I I remember that you said um Fayetteville parking. I was like, I don't know if I want to do a whole you know dissertation on on this. That's true. And you were so glad that you weren't at Fayetteville. Yeah, I was like, man, that's a big problem over there.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

You never move and have to tackle that problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

That's a big problem over there. And then you said leadership development. And I think even as you said that, and I remember you saying that and us talking about as a team, um, by a lot of measures, everything was working fine. So attendance, baptism, campuses, we look fine. Yet you see something that most people at the table aren't seeing. Walk us kind of through that moment. What led you to realize that, and how did you move forward?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah, I I would just say, you know, number one, cross church family. It was one of the greatest honors of my life to come back to our home church and serve with Pastor Nick and with this incredible team. Crosschurch is a special church, and um, I got to be part over the last six years of you know, a transitional season from Pastor Ronnie Floyd to Pastor Nick Floyd and a lot of growth. And so I just say uh it was one of the greatest joys of my life to serve at Crosschurch during this season with you guys. Um but to to go to your question, I mean, I I just remember when we came out of COVID, there was a a meeting that we had where our some of our key leaders uh in our church leadership structure, and we said, man, what what are we gonna do if we we grow to 7,500 people as a church? And thinking like 2,500 people per campus, like that's a massive goal at the time. And um, and then probably a year later, we had hit that goal. Um, and and so I just began to see this God-sized momentum happening in our church where people were being saved, people were joining, people were getting highly involved. And I can remember when that happened, I just felt this tension of man, praise the Lord for what he's doing in our church, but also realizing we we may not be um growing leaders at the same level we are growing the church. And so I just felt this tension of man, we we've got to do something to if God answers our prayers for this next season past that 7,500 mark, are we actually prepared for that? And at the moment, I just I felt like we were unprepared. And so that's the tension I began to feel uh that began to to bring leadership development to the surface.

SPEAKER_04 10:26

So you recognize the problem. How did you start to to to process how do we address the problem?

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah, I I think, you know, Phil, you have the same core conviction. Um that Ephesians passage does not say, you know, pastors are to do all the work of the ministry. It says pastors are to equip the saints of the body to do the work of ministry. And, you know, having been in San Francisco for a lot of years where we just didn't have resources to pay staff, um, the overwhelming conviction was, you know, we cannot add enough staff to keep up with the growth. We've got to give more ministry to the people. Yeah. And so we've got to equip them, we've got to develop them. We need our dream team to be the very best in the world to take on the growth because we can't just add staff to do it. And so it was really a a core conviction of that's our role. Well, yes, we are doing ministry all the time, it is to equip others to do the work of ministry. And so there is that conviction and then just a sense of, you know, we we've got a we've got people in our church that are so gifted in ministry, I don't feel like we're utilizing their God-given gifts to their fullest potential. And so we began to try to figure out what's that gonna look like.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

So it really started with you seeing that we are growing faster than we're growing leaders, and I think that's a problem. I'm trying to think of it as a problem outside of just churches, probably. Yeah. Um, but especially any kind of industry where you need to be developing leaders. Um, but it's really easy to start building organizations and not building leaders.

SPEAKER_02 11:58

And so you're just seeing that growth and that pending problem of it was already I began to see it because we, you know, we would have staff constantly coming to saying, hey, we need to hire somebody, we need to hire somebody. And the reality in Northwest Arkansas is, you know, 10 years ago, we could tell other people, hey, move here, lower cost of living. That's that's no longer the case. I mean, Arkansas, it's expensive. We aren't going to be able to afford to hire enough staff to keep up with the growth. And so I just, as people were coming to me, it's like, well, I get it. And I know we will need to add staff eventually, but are we best stewarding the people that God's already entrusted to us to help grow the ministry that God has given to you in your leadership role? So that was uh just a an overwhelming thought that the reason it came to the surface because we kept getting asked, can we add staff?

SPEAKER_04 12:47

Yeah, and praise the Lord. You know, we've talked often about how we see him going in front of us and how so many decisions we're making, he laid the groundwork for in the past. I think this is another example. Like right now, you you mentioned it's tough for us to hire people and bring them in because of cost of living here, but before the cost of living even went up, he put it on your heart and the hearts of others that we've got to do a better job of developing uh lay people who can who can do the work of the ministry. And I mean, I just thank the Lord for that.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah. And as a leader, you know, you have to see from 30,000 foot. You got to see it from a broad kind of span here. But you lead on the ground level. And you know, you've led at the ground level, Phil, you leave it at the ground level, even though you also have to lead at a big level. The hardest part of leading change, you know, isn't always knowing what needs to change. It's helping your people to see that and start that. So talk about that principle of you're seeing something that maybe even if you shouted it from the rooftop and all our staff, hey, we have a big problem, leadership development. You might have gotten a lot of like, ah, no, we're doing fine.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

You can try to steamroll vision and it it doesn't work.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Yeah, so so talk to us about that.

SPEAKER_02 13:57

Uh, you know, the I I can't even remember. It was a somebody said this when I was, I think, in college, and it has always stuck with me. Um, but they the principle was something to the extent of people will buy into what they help discover. And so that was something for me early on in this process. It was like, it can't just be me pushing an agenda. People have to feel like they help discover the same problem that I saw. And so I began to go to some of our key leaders, including, you know, Jeremy played a key role in this, Phil as well. Our campus pastors at Cross Church, that's such a pivotal role in our church. And so I began to just have conversations with these key, what I just saw as influencers, galvanizers in our church, to bring up what did what do they see. Um, I handed a uh an important book, and we can talk about a book by Mac Lake that it played a pivotal role in this whole process for us. But I use the book as a way to try to present the problem to people. Yeah, because it's called the multiplying effect, it's on the need for leadership pipelines, these kind of things. And so as they read the book, they began to come to me with thoughts and opinions and all of these different things. And um, so the big the vision began to be theirs rather than something coming from somebody else. And that was a big, I think, thing that helped us move forward.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah, I'm I'm seeing it now. Like I was all a part of your master plan.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

You were I the my gift, I I've learned, I I have a uh I and I don't know if this is good or bad, but I have what's I would just call a critical eye. I see things that are out of order or could be problems. Um, I don't necessarily have the gift of galvanizing um a lot of people to see to enter into that vision. And so I think we've got some key galvanizers, and I'm sitting next to one of them. Jeremy Dixon is a galvanizer in our church of people. Nick Bethay is another galvanizer of people, and so um included those kind of guys from the very beginning because I knew they could carry the vision further. I don't always have the time to get to carry a vision from what I see to what needs to happen.

SPEAKER_04 16:04

Yeah, we don't we don't need to spend a lot of time on Mac Lake's book, but was there one or two points from that book that really connected with you that you tried to uh pour into other people?

SPEAKER_02 16:16

Yeah, I mean, so I just give credit to where it's new. David Benavides is the one that introduced me to that book. He was in a class for his doctoral work, and he said, Hey, you gotta read this. And as I was reading it, I remember I was on an airplane traveling somewhere. I think we were doing some stuff with researching seminaries, and as I was sitting there in the I I said, he's giving language to the tension that I have felt. Yeah. Um, and he's presenting a plan that is an option for us as we move forward. And so as I as I read that book, uh, he said something uh that caught my attention. He said, Every organization has a leadership pipeline. It's either an accident or it's intentional. And as I looked at cross churches at the time, yeah, I would say it was just an accident. We were developing leaders, you know, we were growing them both on our staff and in the church. Um, but every ministry was doing it completely different. It was happening by accident rather than an intentional process that actually can help us really go to where we need to go. And so that's the thing that when I read that book, it stood out, it's like, now we've got to move from accidental to intentional.

SPEAKER_01 17:26

Yeah. And and when you're intentional about anything, it's gonna get better. Yep. So I think even what you said there is you know, pulling out great to have terminology, great to have lingo to name the thing that you're going after, and then also just have more intentionality behind all of it, and it's gonna get better. And I think, you know, I'm just thinking back even as we're talking, to you give me that book and you tell me, hey, leadership development is one of our biggest problems at Crossher, so we need to tackle. And from that moment to now, I went I I don't know what at a scale 110 how passionate I would have been about leadership development, maybe like a two to like a nine.

SPEAKER_02 18:01

Yeah, so here's here's what I knew. I knew Jeremy had about a year and a half of doctoral work that he was gonna have to put all of his energy into something. And um when he came to me, he presented, I think he presented like six things. Yeah. And I said, Well, what have you ever thought about this one? And it really was, I was not trying to be selfish, but it was the greatest need I saw in our church, not just in Jeremy's ministry, he was leading young adults at the time, but for the church wide. And I'd again to give credit to where it's due, Jeremy is the person more than anybody else that helped carry this thing to what it is now. And so um you took it and I think God burst a vision in you, and it's been way better than it would have been just if I had taken it.

SPEAKER_04 18:45

Yeah, I agree with that. You you had Jeremy, you had some other people that were immediately bought in. Did you have any pushback in those early stages?

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Yeah, I mean, I when I say pushback, um, again, all of our campuses were just doing it so different. Sure. And the reality is if you've been doing it, you get tied to your way of doing it. And when you need to bring alignment to a vision, that's where we got some of the, I wouldn't even call it pushback, but just that tension to manage of um I need to have the right people at the table to help form this thing. Or we're getting bits and pieces of each campuses that that they found to be really helpful, but we're putting into one system where it it really can work for everybody. And so that would be some of the I think the language differences, you know, we had directors and coaches, and those meant different things. And so some of the pushback was, well, we've been doing it this way. Um, but you know, everybody was pretty humble in that process.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

And I think that is a key for us that you've led us, and Pastor Nick has led us over the last six years to hire humble leaders. And so during that process, we had humble leaders who were critically engaged in the process of how are we gonna do this? Do we need to do it? If we do, what are the right steps? And then everyone also did it with open hands. Yeah, and so we were praying through it. We wanted to be, we we knew we needed to be a united front. Um, and so as we took steps, we saw people gradually let go of their idea and grasp on to the idea that we felt was gonna best help the church. And I think the humility of our team was really a a huge factor in helping us to get to that point.

SPEAKER_02 20:27

Yeah, totally agree with that. And I as I think about the process now, and you know, you you you feel the tension of some of a problem that needs to be solved. Um I really believe that uh one of one thing that leaders underuse is just books as a catalyst for change. That's really good. Um, and so you know, I brought the book in with I probably gave that book to 15 people that I thought could really help move us in the process. And then what we ended up doing is once they had read it and God had begun to birth a vision in them, we actually brought Mac Lake here as a catalyst event for the entire staff team. And I can remember at the at the end of that event, we were still probably a year away from introducing this whole pipeline idea to the staff. But at the end of that day, I said to the team, this is where we're going. And so I I went ahead and put it in their heads of this is a this is a process of change that we're about to undergo so that when we came back, you know, six months, a year later with the actual pipeline plan, you know, people were more more ready than they would have been. So that was kind of the process of how God did it here.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

I remember even specifically, because I was leading a team, so I remember leaving that meeting where you said, This is where we're going, and it being like everybody's like, Oh, this is where we're going. And I remember leaving that meeting, going to my team, and they're like, Well, we gotta buy this book because this is where we're going. And uh just you're a genius on how I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

No, I think that's a it was a it was a great process.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Totally. All right, so now everybody's In as far as like, hey, here's where we're going, here's you know what we need to do better when it comes to leech development. Now what? What were some things that were maybe go nitty-gritty on some things that you're like, all right, we gotta create this framework or this right here.

SPEAKER_02 22:14

You know, yeah, yeah. I mean, I the the the pieces that we needed to put together, we needed a structure. Um, and then more than that, we needed a culture. And the culture piece is the hardest, hardest piece to get, um, and yet it's the most important. We're um and the seminary helped us in this, where we just said we're we're going to be a church that develops leaders. We're gonna do that at the seminary level, we're gonna do that on our staff team, and we're gonna do that with our dream teamers. And so um we had a whole process that that went into just, you know, in our we do a Monday morning gathering for all of our staff and pipeline and leadership development. It began to become a theme over and over again where they knew this isn't just something that was talked about one time. We're we're all going in this together, and there's gonna be accountability there, there's gonna be a process. So, you know, putting the structure together, um our campus pastors were such a big piece in that, you know, of of putting that plan together about, you know, what are what are what do we need? Um, how do we get the span of care for our people at a much healthier level? You know, how do we develop dream team coaches? And so there was, I mean, my goodness, we're still in the process, I would say. Um you know, all of the the details, the weeds of what that pipeline looks like. Um, but it was the the most important thing we did is we included a lot of the key people.

SPEAKER_04 23:33

Yeah, I I think we will always be in the process of that because as we grow and as we grow the number of leaders here, we're always gonna need to grow our number of coaches um to keep to keep healthy ratios. Um, Jeremy, will you just talk for a second? What are we looking for with a coach here? I know this is wheezy, but I think it's important for our people to hear.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah. And we're gonna hit that on on all four of these episodes. We're actually have one dedicated to that kind of level of role because I think that's the most honestly, as I read the book, um, as I dove into all this, even for my dissertation, like that was the one role that was the most interesting or that I didn't understand the most to begin with. But really, what it is is it's more about care and coaching communication is like that role, that person. And you might be like, oh, of course, a coach needs to coach. Um, but what it really looks like is they're over the development, they're over the care. Um, so that not just um, hey, here, do this, do this, do this, do that. But it's um more like a counselor who's not giving you exactly what to do. So like a consultant versus a counselor. Let's go more the ling language that most people might know. Consultant says, here's your problem, so do this. A counselor is trained to ask good questions to get you to answer your own problem. And that's more of what a coach does is they're helping to develop that person to be the best person that they can be by asking really good questions, by caring for them, so that's they're the healthiest that they can be, so that now they help develop people.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

So that's a good overarching.

SPEAKER_02 25:04

And it may be helpful just to explain what it what are we talking about by this pipeline that we're so the the leadership pipeline for Cross Church, it's an intentional process of identifying, equipping, and developing individuals in our church to take on increasing levels of spiritual leadership. And so, you know, we want to help our team to move from leading themselves to leading others, which would really be our kind of dream team leads, our small group leaders. And then what the stuff that you guys are talking about is the actual leading of leaders, right? Where we have dream teamers that aren't just leading people, but they're leading other leaders that are leading people. So it's, you know, how to help people, you know, advance up that thing. And not everybody is going to be called to become a coach. They may be best in that lead position or you know, even just serving. And so, you know, helping people find what is their God-given potential and really getting them in that place and and giving them the um the content and the direction and the coaching that they need to, you know, really be super successful in that role.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

I think it's really helpful what you just said too. Not everybody, it's not like a corporate ladder to climb. I can think about one of my absolute greatest small group leaders of all time um in the social. They didn't need to become a coach because they're the greatest small group leader of all time. And then I found somebody else actually who that person discipled, and they're the best question asker, um, they're the best at caring for a person. They're honestly better at doing something through somebody than them doing it. Yeah. So they were the perfect coach, even though they weren't as good of a small group leader as that person. So I think, you know, all of this and the umbrella of what has God called you to? How's he wired you? How's he equipped you? And then it's just our job, it's our responsibility as a church to come alongside you and developing you to God's best potential in your life.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yep, that's it. Uh, you know, one of the when you talked about what did I see at the very beginning, one of the the things that breaks my heart is when people come to our church and they fall through the cracks. Yeah. And so, you know, when I talk about the heartbeat of this whole thing, it's so that people don't fall through the cracks. Yeah. And in order for us to do that, with the amount of growth that we've experienced, you know, from that 6,000 to almost 12,000 number, it's very easy for people to fall through the cracks if they don't have an intentional connection. Yeah. And so what this pipeline has really helped create is instead of one pastor trying to, you know, lead 60 different people and stay connected with 60, well, now you've got dream team leads and you've got coaches of those people where people are feeling cared for, coached, uh, where they're getting the care that they need to be successful.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

That's good. Hey, let's talk practically just for one moment. You know, most of our listeners, they're either staff, they're dream teamers here at Cross Church, um, they're our residents, or they're connected to us somehow. Um, so maybe our cross church network and those people. And so I I want you to talk to the person who's leading a team, leading a church, leading a ministry, or leading a huge corporation. Uh, what would you tell them to go look at this week to figure out if they have a pipeline problem?

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Well, I'd tell them to to read MacLake's book. Again, the catalyst event, but I do think it's a, you know, are are your if you're a leader on a staff team, are your people burning out? You know, if if people are burning out again, there's something with the span of care that they're not getting the coaching, the care that they need. So I think that's a big one. If a leader leaves, how big is the gap? You know, like is that ministry gonna fall apart? Is it gonna go away? That's again a sign of hey, we don't have the pipeline in place that is raising up other people to step into that role. Um, so burnout, does the ministry, you know, do the lead? And then the the main question I think really helped our team because again, when I first when we started first having the conversation, it wasn't that we were unhealthy. Right. We had dream team leaders and we were equipping people and we were developing them. But the question we began to ask was if God answered every prayer you prayed about the growth of your ministry, could your pipeline sustain it? That's right. And do you have enough dream team leaders for that day, not just for where we're at today, but two years from now, if God answers every prayer you prayed, are you ready with dream teamers or are people gonna begin to fall through the cracks? And I think that is what turned the switch for a lot of our leaders. And they thought, okay, I am good now, but I'm not good for that. Yeah. And that's where we begin to see change.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Yeah. So address address our listeners for a second. I think for us, we saw the cost of waiting on for this could be we are gonna hit a lid. And either we're gonna hit a lid that causes our staff to burn out, or we're gonna hit a lid that limits our growth uh in the future. Can you talk a little about the cost of waiting for our listeners in their churches or their organizations as it pertains to the development of their pipeline? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

You know, you look at the the ministry of Jesus, he always ministered to people wherever he went. Yeah, but the majority of his time was developing those 12. And even more than the 12, the three, right? And so, you know, take that same principle into our ministries. Like the bottleneck of every ministry or organization is leadership. That's the bottleneck. And so for our team, I just I think I made the statement like I don't want any of us to be that bottleneck. Yeah, which means, you know, yes, you need to be doing ministry and caring for, but all those things, but one of the big jobs that we've been giving, being given by Jesus, is to develop the three, develop the 12 that are going to be able to outlast you, that are gonna be able to carry the ministry in the day that you're not there, they're gonna be able to carry that ministry even much further than you could have taken it because you poured into their lives. And so I would just challenge any church leader, you know, who are your three that you're just pouring your leadership development into, who are the 12, um, they're gonna sustain the ministry and take it way further than you could.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

That's very good. All right, I want to turn us now to your next season at Lifeway. Yeah. And uh, I mean, I think it's the right one to kind of like start laying the plane on. So everything that we've been talking about today, the pipeline, seeing the gap, helping people see uh what you see, developing leaders instead of waiting on them. How does all this show up and what you're about to walk into?

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Yeah, that's a that's a good question. And I I don't know that I have the answer yet. Um, you know, it's it's gonna be such a learning curve for me, but I do think the principle still applies. Leadership is gonna be the bottleneck for any organization. And so uh part of the excitement of this role for me is to develop the team that God's given us at LifeWay. We've got about 800 employees that are really good at what they do, but how do we how do we develop them to be able to take a next step within the organization or outside the organization? How can we help them to reach their God-given full potential? And so that's a passion of mine. But then the other side of my job is, man, how do we help resource churches? I think this is an area where churches need resourcing, they need content that help them to develop these pipelines. And so um, I'm excited to see how LifeWay can meet that need. Plus, you know, there's gonna be in anything, the goal of LifeWay is to help chart what's next for the church. How do we get ahead of what they need so that we can resource them with what they need? And so we're trying to figure that out, and uh that's gonna be part of the exciting opportunity right in front of us.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

Man, you you're just so perfect for that, I think. You know, just and obviously the trustees felt the same way. So that's that's pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_04 32:44

Yeah, listening to just your recount the last few years here and how surprised Jeremy has been over the last 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Like, I I just see you like it's one of those things where I've seen it uh uh with Ryan in and he is so good at and honestly, in some ways it's frustrating to somebody like me because I'm like, man, I know where you want to get. So, but you're just going, you know, so so slow and so thoughtful and so intentional. Um, and I'm like, and even but even again, I even knew that, but now yeah, in this podcast, I'm like, oh man, I see right I see right what he was doing. And again, it's not like a in a bad way, it's like, man, what a great approach. He knows how to approach the right people and to get them to see what he sees.

SPEAKER_04 33:27

I've heard you say this before. The bigger the boat is, the the slower you have to turn it. And I think this boat, when you started turning, it was 6,000. Now it's 12,000, and all the organizations and pieces of it, and you just had to turn it slowly, and now we're at the perfect place. Like for our listeners who go to church here, I think they're listening today, thinking, all right, where am I in the pipeline? Um, and now everybody's at a place where they can take a step and into even more than ever, being all that God's created you to be, to be a part of this work that God is doing here. And I think for all of us here who are hating the idea of you leaving, and Rachel and your kids, we're so excited about you with your unique giftedness and even the critical mindset, but also the patient, humble mindset going to this organization that has a chance to touch every, every uh all the churches you're touching and bring the gospel and Bible study materials and equipping materials to pastors all around the world. And I agree with you, Jeremy. We we think you're the perfect guy for it, and we mourn also simultaneously that that God's taking you away from it.

SPEAKER_02 34:41

Well, I mean, it is a major stewardship. And what I would just encourage the cross church family, um, you are our you are our church family. I mean, I was saved in this church, I was discipled, I was called to ministry in this church, ordained in this church, given opportunities in this church. And one of the one of the neat things that has happened, you know, and part of this is something I never saw coming. You know, God develops people at a slow pace. And back when Nick was given that vision, the decade of love, one of the passions of his heart was the E. Our church needs to be a church that is equipping and encouraging pastors around the world. Yeah. And I had no idea when we were creating that and putting, you know, all of that into effect that I would be one of those that are called out to live that peace out on behalf of Cross Church. And so I really do see my family as an extension of Cross Church accomplishing that goal of equipping and encouraging pastors, missionaries, churches around the world. What a gift that we get to be part of such a church with that kind of vision. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

Ryan, is there any last word? I know you're, you know, we've got moments planned for you. By the time we air this, you will have been gone from our church and you will have been living in Nashville for a while. But because a lot of our listeners are listening to this a month after you left us, any any parting word that you would want to uh share with the people of Cross Church in this moment?

SPEAKER_02 36:06

I mean, I think I'd I would just express my sincere love for this church family. This is a special church family. And so when Rachel and I say that it was a wrestle with the Lord, um, I think by this point you've probably the church will have heard that story. But it was not a desire to leave. It was a calling that we had to go and we had to do it. And so I think I'd express my love. But for all of you that are listening, I would say this. I hope that Rachel and I have been an example of putting your yes on the table before God. And I think for everybody that's listening to this, that yes may be stepping up in the pipeline, you know, to to lead a small group for those of you that are just in a small group or to become a dream teed leader, just pour your life into other leaders through coaching. And so uh my my hope would just be, man, live open-handed with before the Lord. He can do way more in your life than you ever could trying to do things your way.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Yeah. I think, you know, you're you're saying the same thing that we say all the time here at Cross Church is like we want your life to matter. Yeah. And we want your legacy not to be just your name, but to for you to steward your life for the glory of God and for the kingdom. And you're a great example of that of just your yes on the table. Say, Lord, use me however you're gonna use me. Our yes is there where we'll go wherever you want us to go. And even as you're leaving here, you know, I'll just say, you know, for me and Phil who love you a lot, we've cried, you know, we've we've talked about that. We've cried about this moment, you know. But you know, we're just proud of you. I know even as a church, we can say that we're proud of you to like launch you out, I guess, again. Um, now to go and equip so many people for God's glory to impact the church in greater ways that we can't even imagine. And so we're pretty fired about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:52

Well, we're gonna we're gonna sign off in a second rhyme, but I would just wrap this part up by saying this idea of leadership development and the leadership pipeline, it's not just an idea, it's really a theology for us. Again, Ephesians 4, 11 through through 12 says that Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers to equip his people for works of service so that the body of Christ may be built up. And as we dive even deeper into this vision, it's really the vision that he gave us 2,000 years ago. And we're just praying and um diligently investing our time into this process for the sake of God's church being as healthy as it can be as we look forward to his return.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

That's right. And if you're a person who you're in your church, you're seeing the gap, uh, don't wait for everyone uh to catch up before you start. Just lead where you are, um, see from 30,000 feet, but do the work on the ground and don't wait for somebody who's a nine or ten out of ten to start um developing people. Um, your next great leader in your church or your ministry or your corporation, your company, they're probably a five or six right now. And you know, don't be scared of that. Just don't, you know, don't wait around for someone else to call them up. You do that. And our next episode, we're gonna be talking about the entry point. Um, what it actually looks actually looks like to start serving in the church and to join the dream team and why serving is the ground floor of every great leader. So, Ryan, just want to thank you for being on here again today. And uh, you know, first time we've ever had the CEO of Lifeway on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 39:32

Let's not make it the last.

SPEAKER_04 39:33

No, let's we'll start scheduling as often as you want to come back and hang with us. Or um Ryan, we love you. We love you, Rachel, Brady, Allie, May. Yeah, your your dog that's a little um off. Um, but we're so grateful for you. Yeah. Um, Rise Listening family and and Crock Church family, we love you as well. Keep leading. Let's keep developing others, and we'll see you next week.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

We'll see you next time on another episode of the Rise Leadership Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Thanks for listening to the Rise Leadership Podcast. If you found today's episode helpful, be sure to subscribe, leave our video, and share it with others in our ministry or community. Let's equip and inspire more leaders together. We'll see you next time on the Rise Leadership Podcast.