69. Relationship Anarchy: Loving Outside the Lines with Sage Drennon Artwork

Sex, Drugs, & Soul

Welcome to Sex, Drugs, & Soul—where the sacred gets spicy, the healing gets real, and the self-discovery comes with a side of mischief. I’m Kristin Birdwell—author, mystic, tantrika, story doula, and professional line-blurrer between the profane and the profound.

For years, I thought I had to choose between my wild, rebellious nature and my deep spiritual calling. Turns out, the magic happens when we embrace and integrate the two. This podcast is where we break the rules, shed the shame, and get intimate with our truth—whether that’s through soul-stirring conversations, sensual exploration, or the occasional existential crisis (served with a wink and a cocktail).

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Sex, Drugs, & Soul

69. Relationship Anarchy: Loving Outside the Lines with Sage Drennon

April 07, 2025 • Kristin Birdwell • Season 3 • Episode 6

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Are traditional relationship structures limiting your personal freedom? In this episode, Kristin and Sage dive deep into Relationship Anarchy, Non-Monogamy, and the power of Love Without Rules.

From exploring the transition between Polyamory and Relationship Anarchy to Breaking Free from Relationship Patterns, this conversation challenges everything you thought you knew about love, commitment, and desire.

If you've ever wondered “Is Relationship Anarchy right for me?”, or if you’re looking for ways to create Custom Relationships that align with your values, this episode is for you.

🔗 Listen now and start Deconstructing Relationships to find what truly works for you.

Connect with Sage:
IG: @justasuccugirl / @desiretheforbidden
Website: https://www.desiretheforbidden.com/
TikTok: @desiretheforbidden

Jump to the mic drop moments...
0:00 Intro
8:32 Navigating Polyamory and Relationship Anarchy
23:53 Embracing Change in Relationships
33:22 Curiosity and the Evolution of Relationships
48:07 Authenticity in Relationships

Do you want to reset, expand, and feel more alive? Learn more about Naba and the community detox journey here.

Kristin (00:01.746)
I'm so happy you're here. I met Sage at a Wild Woman event. So two Wild Women gathering, who knows what will all transpire during this conversation. Yeah, me too. And listeners too. Yes, owning it now. Yeah, so that was in December and this is the first time that I get to see your smiling face, but I'm hoping to

Sage (00:09.006)
Hmm.

Sage (00:14.19)
I love that for us.

Epic, really.

Sage (00:25.366)
Yes, yes.

Kristin (00:31.67)
meet in IRL again soon, so maybe we can plan something. But not to take up too much time with that. I really want to dive into this relationship anarchy because I'm so turned on by the word anarchy or being rebellious in and of itself. And I have no idea what it means or what it means to you or all those things.

Sage (00:33.42)
Yes, yes.

Sage (00:53.454)
Yeah, thank you so much for saying that. And yeah, I really resonate with the anarchy term. It's one that I am really fond of as well. know, relationship anarchy is fairly new to love styles and relationship structures. I'm sure people have been practicing it, right, for a very long time. But I think kind of the layman culture of the terminology and also research on it and integrating it into colloquial

conversations around relationships is very new. And I think there can be a number of different types of definitions that people use for it. I think the one that really stands out for me is, is thinking about relationships from a framework of uprooting and dismantling belief systems and structures that create systems of oppression in relationship. And I think that's something we don't talk about enough about how when we get into relationship with people, how we can

Kristin (01:41.376)
Mmm.

Sage (01:49.782)
really impose a lot of systems of oppression onto them just through the way we love them. And I think there's a lot wrapped up in that, right? Evolution and the way that we have evolved as human beings, the arrival of marriage and specifically marriage as a way to shift property and ownership right through women and their bodies. And when we were paying dowries for marriages and things like that and...

Kristin (01:53.75)
Mmm.

Sage (02:14.766)
The idea, I think, for a long time was that more open relationships created too much of a bottleneck for men, and women were gravitating in heavier numbers towards individual men, which was leaving other men out. And as we got more involved in the industrial era and as agriculture was more evolved and we really moved into this kind of white picket fence, you know, nuclear family structure.

Kristin (02:28.47)
Sage (02:44.992)
This idea of one woman and one man together in marriage really, really became a form of a system of oppression for what I believe to be relationships and love, because I think we're all hindered by that. I don't think it's just women who are deeply impacted by that. But I will say that as a woman, being a relationship anarchist is my form of liberation. It is how I liberate myself from ideals or belief systems that people want to hold me to about my own freedom.

Kristin (02:53.044)
Yeah

Sage (03:14.016)
and agency. And so the thing I love about relationship anarchy is that it invites us to really think about what does agency and autonomy in relationship look like and how can we create relationships that have their own meaning and have their own structure that is solely dictated by the people inside them versus what society is telling us or what our family is telling us or here, right, or our communities are telling us about what relationships have to look like and be like.

Kristin (03:23.798)
Hmm.

Kristin (03:35.082)
Lord.

Kristin (03:39.871)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (03:41.558)
And so I'm curious for you as you're hearing me talk about that, what resonates for you, you know?

Kristin (03:45.014)
Oh, and there's so much that comes up. Like I think about like the conditioning that we're given, you know, as far as like mindsets or different beliefs. Yeah, the societal pressures for sure. I'm curious about like how you even discovered it. I wrote down like that your own agency and autonomy. Yeah, I was a little I was curious like how it was gonna be defined. Sounds like, okay, well, aren't we always in relationship to something or someone at some time? So didn't know if it was like, you know, a complete like

Sage (03:58.424)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sage (04:09.806)
Mm-hmm. Always.

Kristin (04:14.782)
saying no to that or what it meant. it's like rediscovering your own personal freedom or liberation within relationships.

Sage (04:21.238)
Yeah, and then giving freedom to relationships, right? So if you think about it, many times, you know, people will be like, your spouse should be the most important person in your life and you should sacrifice everything for them or your kids, right? Or this other relationship that you have familial relationships, whatever it might be. And we kind of place those relationships on a hierarchy and certain relationships get certain things and other relationships don't.

Kristin (04:24.991)
Yeah.

Kristin (04:41.942)
Hmm

Kristin (04:46.774)
Mmm.

Sage (04:47.182)
And while I think that that is appropriate, right, to have boundaries in our relationships for what certain relationships get and what certain relationships don't, I think it's important that we interrogate with ourselves why that is and why we're putting those certain boundaries on relationships, right? So I think about it, yeah, exactly. Is it coming from ourselves? And is it coming from the other people in the relationship with us, right? Because I think that there is a lot of ways that we can get into relationship and not be clear about what we want.

Kristin (04:58.198)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, is it coming from us? Like, yeah, yeah.

Hmm.

Kristin (05:15.638)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (05:15.894)
And then it's oftentimes a mismatch situation or people are really struggling with trying to understand how to find themselves in the relationship because they don't fully understand what the boundaries are in the relationship. I think for me, just to take it a step further than just kind of thinking about my own agency and autonomy, it's also about breaking free of some of the belief systems and ways of being that society has taught us to be. think one of those things is that we can't be physically affectionate with our friends.

or people that we're not in romantic relationships with. And the reality is, the research shows that all of us are pretty much touch starved. Many of us have not been hugged or held in a very long time since we were kids mainly. And this disproportionately affects those socialized as men as well. The idea of receiving emotional support, the idea of receiving affection, those types of things. Oh, you can't hold hands with your friends. You can't hug your friends. You can't do this.

because your friends have to fall in a certain type of relationship structure that has all of these arbitrary boundaries that we didn't even really agree to, we just somehow succumbed to and said, okay, we'll just treat our friendships that way.

Kristin (06:22.462)
Yeah, or the value even too placed on like romantic relationships compared to friendships. And I'm like, right now being, you know, primarily single, I mean dating, but my girlfriends or like my friends have been there through decades. They've been my longest lasting relationship.

Sage (06:26.06)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Sage (06:36.754)
Yeah. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes. I was literally just with a friend of mine who I've known since I was 18. I mean, we grew up together and I held her baby for the first time, like, you know, and had I been in a relationship that didn't allow me to travel to Florida and travel to be away for a week and a half caring for another person and their child, I wouldn't have been able to have been afforded that opportunity. so I think that's...

That's kind of what I mean when I say the anarchy part of relationship is can we uproot systems of oppression, which is can we give each other freedom in the way that we love and relate to one another? Or do I feel this sense of ownership over you or that you are my property or that you belong to me in some way because we're in a romantic connection, right? And that doesn't mean that I think we should disable having boundaries or having.

Kristin (07:18.41)
Bye.

Sage (07:28.146)
know, agreements and relationships about what's appropriate and what's not appropriate based on who's involved, I actually very much think we should do that. I just think that we have to be very, very, very good about interrogating where those boundaries are coming from and why we feel the need to place them onto other people. And I think, you know, this has just really taught me a lot about myself, a lot of the, you know, wounds that I have, a lot of the triggers that I have and healing that I need to do in my own.

Kristin (07:34.506)
Yeah.

Sage (07:56.364)
in my own self around relationships and how I relate to others and really thinking about, I give other people their freedom or am I trying to control? Am I trying to, right, create some sort of structure with them where they do what I want them to do? And yes, to feel a sense of control, to feel safety, right? If they always do what I think they're gonna do or if they always do what I want them to, I don't ever have to sit in any of my negative feelings or discomfort about what they are doing, right? And I think,

Kristin (08:05.462)
Hmmmm

Kristin (08:11.498)
Yeah, to feel safe or something.

Kristin (08:22.806)
mmmm

Sage (08:26.518)
Relationship anarchy can invite in a lot of opportunity for desire. And I think that's, you know, the intersection of the business that I've started, right? Of thinking about how have we oriented around our desires over the course of our life? do we have any systems of oppression in the way that we desire, right? Do we allow ourselves to desire? Do we feel shame? Do we feel fear? And then do we oppress ourselves from going after those desires or speaking those desires or even naming them? And how does that show up for us? Ooh, tell me, tell me, tell me, tell me.

Kristin (08:43.381)
now.

Kristin (08:52.546)
I have recently. yeah. No, also, I want to circle back. I'm curious like how you even discovered or, you know, found this self inquiry process for yourself. But yeah, no, just recently I noticed a fear of rejection came up. I saw this like really attractive person that I wanted to approach at the airport and then, you know, someone else and I guess it was in the lounge too later. So I like bookended my trip. One was at the beginning, one was at end. I guess I was given the opportunities.

Sage (09:02.413)
Yeah.

Sage (09:10.862)
Yeah.

Sage (09:17.377)
Yeah

Yeah.

Kristin (09:21.046)
Um, but I, I really wanted the, to be the one to have been approached. I'm like, maybe if I just will my desire enough or make eye contact and like, and now, now I'm like, okay, next time I am, I am going to make an approach and like, so what if I get rejected, it'll be good practice. Um, I think it also stems from like being bullied as a child and like having that fear of rejection in there. Um.

Sage (09:28.603)
Mmmmm

Sage (09:47.758)
for sure.

Kristin (09:49.086)
Yeah, or maybe just wanting to be more in that feminine, receptive energy to a little combo probably.

Sage (09:54.21)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think it's so interesting too, because desire, it's not just about what you want, it's also about how you feel about what you want, right? So, right, like the desire that I have to approach this person, how do I feel about that? And is my fear of rejection coming up? Am I feeling worthy? Am I feeling like I want to chase? I don't want to be chased. Like, what is that that is coming up for me? And I actually think that the way that we orient emotionally around our desires is attuned to how we

Kristin (10:03.488)
Mmm. Mmm!

Sage (10:24.034)
desires. And you actually kind of just surface that for us, right? The fear of rejection, you know, surface for you an action of like, how do I will this in my mind to make this happen? Right? And so it's just so interesting to think about that, right? About with our desires that the way we feel about them is so important. And I think that's what brought me to this place of I was really realizing I had this deep desire for freedom. I was like, I just want to feel free in my relationships. I did monogamy for

Kristin (10:24.65)
Bye.

Kristin (10:43.808)
Hey.

Kristin (10:49.064)
you

Sage (10:53.772)
you know, the first six years of I started dating around 14, six or seven years till I was about 21. I did monogamy and every time I did monogamy, always just felt like something was missing and that I felt stifled and really caged in my relationship. And it wasn't necessarily that I had partners who were super controlling or obsessive or abusive or anything, but it just didn't feel free.

Kristin (11:20.032)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sage (11:20.69)
And even, I think you heard me tell the story at the retreat, even when I was in one of the most beautiful relationships I'd ever been in a marriage that I was so grateful to be in, I still had to choose to walk away. And that semblance of freedom was a big part of that. And thinking about how do I find freedom in my relationships? And so I started with a love style orientation of polyamory. So dating multiple people at once, having multiple relationships.

And while I think that can be a really great avenue to explore freedom in relationships, I think that it's still continued to make me feel stifled because polyamory can sometimes just be multiple monogamous relationships, if that makes sense what I'm saying. It can just feel as if you're just kind of regurgitating the monogamous structure over and over again with multiple people.

Kristin (12:02.612)
two couples getting together or?

Kristin (12:10.56)
Yeah, okay, okay.

Sage (12:11.97)
So like you kind of get into relationship and then you get into relationship with multiple people and then you're thinking about the relationship exilator. So we meet and then do we get married and then do we have kids and then how do we prioritize that? And then there's a lot of hierarchy. Yeah. And a lot of hierarchy, right? So maybe there's a couple that, has been together for a while. So then they like label themselves as primaries. then, yeah. Yeah.

Kristin (12:22.58)
future building or.

Kristin (12:31.798)
Yeah, that's what I was curious and I loved your perspective on that Wild Woman was that, and I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I'm just like, I asked you, was like, so do you have a primary partner? That was like my, you kind of, you know, I've dabbled in it a little bit, but like outside looking in kind of like, do you have one or is it more like equal playing field? So yeah, continue. But I just wanted to reference that.

Sage (12:37.43)
No, no, Yeah. Yeah.

Sage (12:46.422)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sage (12:55.18)
Yeah, thank you. No, no. And I think that idea, right, that there's a primary, that there's a hierarchical structure even amongst the group of dynamics of relationships still feels like systems of oppression to me. Right? And again, I'm basically speaking from my experience and just how I orient as a relationship anarchist not to make any judgments or biases towards any types of love styles. But I think for me with the polyamory, it still just felt that there was still hierarchy and still systems of oppression kind of within that.

Kristin (13:05.066)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (13:23.622)
And relationship anarchy was kind of the next step out of that, that really helped me pull apart the systems of oppression and really thinking about my own agency and autonomy. So one of the big things for me is that my time is my own. Nobody owns my time. So you, just cause you're my romantic partner doesn't mean you're guaranteed my time in any way, or form other than what I am willing and able to provide for the relationship.

Kristin (13:29.045)
Hmm.

Kristin (13:43.296)
MMMM

Kristin (13:47.926)
I love you.

Sage (13:48.3)
And then you at any point get to decide or get to communicate to me, hey, I'm not seeing you enough or like, hey, I would like some more time or hey, you know, the connection is not feeling strong enough without more time for me. And then we get to make some decisions about if we want to restructure the relationship or if we want to continue forward or however we want to navigate that. But I think, yeah, and I think relationship, yes, yes, yes.

Kristin (13:53.492)
No.

Kristin (14:04.694)
Yeah, I like that one a lot. I love my solo time. And in a lot of it, had a like my press partner, said, he's like, I understand that you like to have your solo alone time in it, but it also seems like a choice to not spend time with me. And so, yeah.

Sage (14:21.582)
Hmm.

Yeah. And I think that's another thing that we have to deal with with our desires is that people will have reactions to them. And we have to stand firm in our own desire to say, you know what? No. Like I hear that you're sad and I hear that this is disappointing and I can hold space for that for sure. And I'm still not going to change my mind because this is what is right for me. And, Glennon Doyle wrote this really great book, called untamed and in it, she talks about, she said, this quote just sits with me every

Kristin (14:29.373)
Okay.

Yeah.

Good.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kristin (14:50.205)
Nah.

Sage (14:53.866)
I hope you disappoint as many people as you have to so that you never disappoint yourself. And that to me is like the quintessential framework for desire for me. How do I go after my desires in a way where I never disappoint myself and feel safe and comfortable disappointing everybody that I need to in order to work towards?

Kristin (14:55.55)
Hmm

Mm-hmm.

Kristin (15:03.21)
Mmm.

Kristin (15:07.638)
you

Kristin (15:11.798)
I'm that was such a potent question.

Sage (15:14.751)
Hehehehe. Alright, cause-

And I feel desire can be vilified in such a deep way, right? I mean, I remember when I was growing up, it was like, if it's not a need and it's just a want, you don't, don't talk about it. Don't ask for it. Right. And I know many of us that are millennials and maybe younger, we've or older, we've like experienced that framework, right? This idea that like, you're not allowed to have wants or that your wants are frivolous or less important than like survival needs and all of these things. And I just found that to be such

Kristin (15:29.918)
yeah, sure.

Kristin (15:41.898)
Hmm.

Hmm.

Sage (15:48.64)
an interesting social dynamic because for me, I actually think that desire is life force. When we desire things, when we want things, when we have things that we are wanting and desiring and motivated for, it gives us life. It makes us live. It makes us feel alive because we actually feel like we want something. I think with desire in particular, like wanting something, believing that you can have something and then also

Kristin (16:04.726)
Hmm

Kristin (16:10.175)
Yeah.

Sage (16:18.114)
being able to stand true in your own desire to say, it's okay if other people don't want that. It's okay if other people feel disappointed by that. It's okay if other people have hard feelings about that. But what I know to be true for me is that this is my desire and this is what I'm gonna go after, right? And it's disappointing people is not the same as harming or abusing them, right? And so when we think about desire, I think that's where people get a little stuck is that like sometimes our desires can abuse or harm other people, right? And that's when I say,

We have to have consciousness around our desires, right? Like we have to be aware of what we're desiring and what we're asking for. But other people's disappointment, other people's upset, other people's feelings and orientation around our desire is not our responsibility. And we don't have to hold that. Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (16:48.543)
Yeah.

Kristin (17:00.392)
Yeah, their task. Yeah. I just recently read, what is it? The Courage to Be Disliked. And I love it because it's so good. And it speaks to a lot of what you're already talking about, about assigning the task kind of. And so their task is whether to, you their emotional reaction or their feelings or whether they like me or not, their judgments, that's on them. It's kind of like the serenity prayer.

Sage (17:07.658)
Mm-hmm. I just bought that. Okay, good.

Sage (17:25.271)
Yes.

Kristin (17:27.668)
Like, accepting what I can change, what is it wisdom to know the difference and whatever the last piece is. I just was like, wow, yeah. And it kind of resonates, think, or I think there's that big Mel Robbins, let them kind of thing go on. Then like, let them have that judgment. Let them, it may be holding you back to stopping if you're acting or not wanting to act on your desires before fear of that.

Sage (17:27.746)
Yeah, yeah.

Yep. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I know. I'm on board with you. I'm on board with you. I'm there. I'm there.

Sage (17:45.794)
Yeah.

Kristin (17:58.003)
I think a lot of our desires too are kind of like whispers or nudges for our souls evolution.

Sage (18:04.204)
Yes. And I think about this a lot, which is that desire percolates differently in all of us because it's so specific to each of us. Right? Like you and I do not have the same desires. We might have similar desires or desires that fall in the same arena, environment, category, whatever it might be, but we don't ever have the same two desires. And even people like running for presidency or going after the same thing that they don't actually have the same desire.

Kristin (18:18.422)
Where is my name? Where is my name?

Kristin (18:26.358)
Mmm.

Kristin (18:32.863)
Bye bye.

Sage (18:33.634)
They have the same outcome that they want to become president or to win this thing or to get first place. But the desire for why they want first place, that's all different for all of us, right? Yeah.

Kristin (18:36.458)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Kristin (18:43.83)
Oh yeah, like intention, feeling, desire. What is the feeling that you want when you get that desire, have that desire or so much there. It's so juicy.

Sage (18:51.138)
Yeah.

It is, it is. I freedom for me goes hand in hand with desire. If I have freedom and agency and autonomy over myself and my sovereign being, then I have the freedom to go after everything that I want because I don't have to rely on my sovereignty being reflected to me by someone else. Like I believe in my own sovereignty. I believe in myself. And so I'll go after the things that I want and disappoint everybody that I need to because I believe in myself and I believe that my desires are.

Kristin (19:06.381)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Sage (19:22.614)
valid and worthy. And so again, I think that brings us full circle back to what I was saying before, which is that how we feel about our desires is so important because if we inherently feel unworthy of the things that we want, we will never take action to go get them.

Kristin (19:30.294)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (19:36.534)
Mm-hmm or shame around them to item pack a lot of shame about I'm like, I don't think this is mine You know, I'm like I think this was projected on to me and like, okay Do I actually like this or you know, or you know, just retracing steps and like I didn't go into it with the shame I'm just following a curiosity or you know exploring or something and and then it was you know, like whether the culture cultural conditioning or societal projections that

Sage (19:38.222)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (19:42.335)
Yes, yes

Sage (19:54.24)
Yeah!

Kristin (20:04.246)
you know, I could sense or feel or that was voiced. so, you know, it's interesting. It's interesting process. Now, you said you dabbled with or started in the polyamory dynamic, which I didn't even know existed when I until like college or post college. I mean, I'd heard of like, you know, maybe like the multiple wives thing. But as far as like being able to love two people at the same time, I remember feeling like, oh, wow, how is it even possible that I have this much love for two people at the same time?

Sage (20:08.824)
Yeah.

Sage (20:14.499)
huh. Yeah. Yeah! Yeah, yeah.

Sage (20:22.734)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (20:26.232)
Yeah.

Sage (20:31.566)
Yeah

Kristin (20:33.78)
and I didn't have that framework or language surrounding it. So I was like, felt guilty, you know, or felt like I had to choose. So I was curious like what your step or evolution was from exploring in that. Is that is what your current practice is the relationship anarchy? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Sage (20:39.17)
Yeah. Yeah.

Sage (20:51.48)
I would say that my current practice is more aligned with relationship anarchy than more polyamory. Although I think people looking in would probably be like, okay, polyamory would probably be the easier terminology for them to kind of grapple with. But I would say I operate more as a relationship anarchist. And the way that that shows up for me is usually when I meet people and I'm having conversations about getting into relationship. The way that I'll express this is, you know, I'm a relationship anarchist. And so what that means is that all of my relationships are completely dictated

Kristin (21:03.179)
Yeah.

Sage (21:21.184)
and created and structured solely by the people involved in them, which means that my other partners do not have say in what I do with my other partners. My other partners don't have the ability to tell me that I need to break up with someone or that someone is not allowed to be in my life. They're not allowed to tell me who I'm allowed to be in relationship or what type of relationship to be in.

Kristin (21:43.03)
Mmm.

Sage (21:44.494)
that agency and autonomy is very important to me because something that can be very, very shaky in polyamory is the feeling that your relationship isn't secure because there's another partner who can create an opportunity for that relationship to disappear.

Kristin (21:54.548)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. for sure. kind of experiencing a little bit of that. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to get into all the details right now. But yeah, I'm feeling not on the equal plane. It's starting to... There's been some amends kind of made and some gestures and a little bit more communication. But yeah, guess I kind of feel more like the unicorn coming in or being, you canceled. I think that there's just some more communication that...

Sage (22:01.421)
Yeah?

Sage (22:05.954)
Yeah, yeah,

Sage (22:11.778)
Yeah.

Sage (22:21.664)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin (22:27.648)
that needed to be had too.

Sage (22:29.494)
Yeah, and I think, again, if you're not willing to really interrogate your relationship practices, it can be very easy to miss all of this and to just think you're doing it fine. But when you involve other people's feelings and emotions and well-being into a conversation around relationships, it is very destabilizing to me personally to think that somebody could create a situation where the relationship could end outside of the will of the two people involved or however many people involved.

Kristin (22:55.446)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (22:58.284)
With relationship anarchy, it is that kind of stake in the ground of like, am my own person. I am my own sovereign being and my relationships will be what I want them to be. And at any time we can have discussions about what's working for you and what's not working for you and all of those things as well. And sometimes that comes with hard decisions of like, maybe this isn't actually a good fit. But at the same time, I think I would rather know that it's not a good fit through the course of deep, deep radical honesty in the beginning.

than getting three years in and then being like, now we're being radically honest with each other and this isn't going anywhere, right?

Kristin (23:30.902)
Hmm

I do. that it's like what I can still be radically honest and allow for myself to evolve because I know you mentioned something about wanting what or knowing what you want when you go into a dynamic or relationship. But I know that over time definitely sometimes my wants and needs or desires change. Yeah. So it's like just communicate that.

Sage (23:46.979)
Yeah.

Sage (23:50.766)
Yeah. Yeah.

That's yeah. I mean for me with relationship anarchy, one of my big relationship axioms is that we live in relationships of truth. So I don't care what the truth is. I don't care how good, bad, ugly, nice bow wrapped up that it is. I don't care what the truth is, but we will operate in our relationship in truth, which is that if you change your mind about something, if your desires change and they're going to, they're going to, are you telling me about that? Are we talking about that? Are you being truthful with me about where you are?

Kristin (24:08.758)
Hmm. Hmm.

Kristin (24:19.295)
Yeah.

Sage (24:25.814)
Right? Which is that, again, that sovereignty of knowing yourself well enough to know that like, even if my feelings have changed or even if I need more, or even if I have desires or even if I have needs that I need to speak, none of that changes my worth or value in this relationship. And even if I have to speak up and say, Hey, I need more time with you, or I need more from you than you're able to give. And that person's like, Hey, I can't give you anymore. That's a choice for me to then get to decide, is this the relationship I want to continue to still be in?

And that's not about a failed relationship. That's not about them being dishonest in the beginning or anything like that. That's about as we've evolved and grown and changed, are we still compatible? And I talk about this a lot on some of my TikToks about if you get into a relationship with anyone, whether you're monogamous, non-monogamous, polyamorous, whatever, and your expectation is that they will be the exact same person they were when you met them, as to when you end the relationship with them, you're sorely misguided. And that is...

so unrealistic because the reality is is change is the only constant. We're always changing, the world's always changing, things are always changing, relationships are changing and evolving and growing. And my true belief is that if the relationship cannot handle the change, whether that is because people can't speak truth or people can't navigate whatever the truth is, whatever that is, if it can't handle the change, the change will be a breakup. The change will be the restructure. The change will be whatever evolution your relationship goes through next.

Kristin (25:25.62)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (25:45.609)
Hmm

Kristin (25:50.262)
Yeah.

Sage (25:50.774)
And so if you're constantly trying to control your relationship to ensure there is never any change, you're really just kicking the can down the road because change is coming whether you like it or not. And that change is going to have an impact and that impact could be breaking up, but it could also be this like new evolution of a relationship, a new rebirth of a relationship. Yeah.

Kristin (26:01.236)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kristin (26:08.502)
Yeah, for sure. An opportunity to fall in love with a different version or expression of someone. Like, I know I was a different person. as I'm like, yeah, I express myself differently every day.

Sage (26:13.664)
Yeah. Yeah.

Fame, fame.

Sage (26:22.762)
Yeah, I have a partner I've been with for five years and I'm like, I'm totally different than when we first met. And so was he. And so I think in relationships, freedom is what allows for change. And I think that's what I find so powerful about relationship anarchy is that because there are so much freedom, there's so much ability for change. Right. You can change your mind. You can decide, hey, I'm going to take certain things off the table for myself right now.

Kristin (26:28.532)
Yeah.

Sage (26:48.994)
Maybe I'm going to go on a celibacy break. Maybe I'm going to go on a romantic break. Maybe I'm going to only invite in certain types of intimacy for my life right now. And it really gives you a lot of ability to make and form these relationships that you really value and are really aligned with whatever it is that you are working towards at that time and whatever it is that your desires are. And let me just say this, let me just say this about relationship hierarchy because they say it takes a village to raise a child, but I,

Kristin (27:07.957)
Yeah.

Sage (27:17.898)
I also think that it also takes a village to raise the best version of yourself. I cannot count on my partner to give me everything that I need to be the best version of myself. You know what I mean? Just like we were talking about my girlfriends, my spiritual connections, my work connections, all these different relations, my family, all these different relationships pour into me and help build and create the best version of myself through the way that I leverage those relationships in the best

Kristin (27:22.453)
Mmm.

Kristin (27:25.841)
yeah.

Kristin (27:42.31)
yeah.

Sage (27:47.278)
possible way. So take my family for example. My family and I could probably be like on total opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of belief systems, ideologies, relationship structures, all of that. And yet I just spent a week with them and enjoyed my time with them and loved every second of it. And the reason I think I was able to do that is because those relationships are built in a way where we give each other exactly what we're desiring or needing and then we build everything else around.

Kristin (28:00.691)
Uh-huh.

Hmm.

Sage (28:16.322)
Right? And so, you know, my father saying he wants to be close to me and wants to be a part of my life and me having to have the conversation with him. Okay, well then you have to be comfortable with me bringing multiple partners for Christmases or for holiday events or house blessings or whatever we're doing. And I need to know that even if you're not fully understanding or fully capable of grasping what that means for me, that you will be loving and kind to the people I bring into your home. Right? And so we have that agreement together. It's not an agreement that

Kristin (28:16.79)
.

Hmm.

Kristin (28:28.64)
Yeah.

Kristin (28:39.286)
Hmm

Kristin (28:43.478)
I'd love that.

Sage (28:44.632)
that he has to believe in what I believe or that he has to think that this is an appropriate way to behave or whatever. I don't actually care. I don't actually care, right? Yeah, like I just don't care. But what I will say is that for us to have a relationship, you to have what you want, right? Which is the relationship with me and to know me and to feel like you are a part of my life, you have to be loving and kind to the people who are in my life, even if you don't fully understand it.

Kristin (28:50.143)
Yeah.

Yes. Such a good explanation too.

Kristin (29:05.493)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (29:14.72)
And it's given us this really beautiful opportunity to grow together. And I mean, I was there with two of my partners for a week just now. And all of the growth that we all had together, that my partners had while they were there, what my family had together, like just from the sheer nature of being around each other and a sense of freedom, that we could all just operate and behave as we are and be authentic. And nobody was going to be anything but loving and kind to one another.

Kristin (29:19.604)
sure.

Kristin (29:32.31)
Yeah.

Kristin (29:40.34)
Yeah. And then kind of, and for the partners too, like going into that, you know, dynamics, like there's a lot more breathing room and freedom. And yeah, I feel like that, you know, with the, what you mentioned too, about, you know, trying on different like phases or, know, whether it's celibacy or whether it's, you know, dating yourself for a while or, you know, yeah, it's just, there seems like there'd be a lot of freedom for experimentation and like trying things on. like, okay, let me see how I feel about this.

Sage (29:57.582)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (30:01.153)
Yeah, yeah.

Sage (30:08.898)
Yeah.

Kristin (30:09.204)
And I also just think that even if a relationship ends or, you know, changes are in the form of heartbreak or, you know, a breakup, I don't think it's a failure. always think it's, yeah, I think it's a completion. I look at it as a completion. And for me, even my ex that I have not contacted or, I mean, not talked to or seen in years, I still have love for him. Like that love didn't go away. Yeah.

Sage (30:13.538)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah. Same.

Sage (30:33.102)
so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And I think I love what you just said about it's not a failure. It's a completion. And I like really want to drop into that because yes, I as someone who's had a lot and I've had a lot of relationships, girl. Like I said, I've been doing this since I was 21. So I've had a lot. I've just had a lot of relationships. And so, you know, when I talk to people about that, I can feel the like, oh,

Kristin (30:49.43)
Wow, cool!

Sage (31:00.27)
So a lot of breakups and I'm like, yeah, a lot of them. Like, and they've taught me, I've learned something every single time and I've learned so much about myself and what I want. And I think something that's so beautiful is that you can, you can put a timestamp on something so that you can enjoy it for its full breadth of what it is without holding onto the attachment of longevity. And I think that is so deeply beautiful that, and we do it all the time, but people don't recognize that.

Kristin (31:08.562)
Uh-huh.

Kristin (31:22.187)
you

Sage (31:28.92)
Think about when someone goes into hospice and you agree to take care of them for a few months. That's a relationship anarchy structure. You're entering into a relationship with someone where you're caretaking, providing for them for three months or however long they're gonna be in hospice. That is a structure for a relationship. That person passes, right? So that's a completion to the relationship. It's not a failure to the relationship, right? But we do those types of dynamics all the time.

Kristin (31:51.808)
Uh-uh.

Sage (31:57.356)
We just specifically don't want to do them for some reason with our romantic dynamics. And we have this weird kind of hesitancy to open ourselves up. I mean, a great example is maybe you're traveling abroad for a month and you run into someone and you like have this crazy connection with them, but you restrict yourself, right? Because you have the desire, but you feel so.

Kristin (32:01.654)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (32:19.884)
discomforted by the idea that the outcome could not be longevity, that you could fall in love with someone or care for someone so deeply and lose them in a month, that it keeps you from acting on that desire. And that's a choice. I'm not saying that's a bad choice, but it's a choice, right? Whereas for me, I think what relationship anarchy gives me is the freedom to say my choice doesn't have to be based in fear. My choice doesn't have to be based in the fear that I will lose something or that I won't.

Kristin (32:24.285)
Kristin (32:29.312)
Mmm.

Kristin (32:32.758)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kristin (32:43.99)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (32:48.078)
to a place of success on something because I'm actually just going to choose to create the parameters by what exists instead of this arbitrary idea of what's supposed to exist.

Kristin (32:50.026)
Yeah.

Kristin (32:58.452)
Yeah, to me, I'm writing it down so I don't forget. It symbolizes an acceptance of death or of impermanence because we're all gonna die. You don't know that. Everything is impermanent. Kind of like what you mentioned about the, know, changes, the inevitable. It's like everything is impermanent just by living, you know, being here itself.

Sage (33:01.302)
Yeah.

Sage (33:06.742)
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, surprise.

Yeah. Yeah.

Sage (33:23.692)
Being alive. Yeah. mean, seasons, nature, it's all of it, right? It's all the evolution, the death and the rebirth. And we talked a lot about this at the retreat, right? And it's so interesting because I remember growing up and one of the things that they used to try to scare us with was curiosity killed the cat. Well, yeah, she died because she needed to go through a death and a rebirth. Like she died nine lives because she needed all the rebirths. Like you didn't tell me she got rebirth. You just told me she died.

Kristin (33:27.349)
Yeah.

Kristin (33:54.454)
I love that so much. She has nine lives, but you didn't tell me that. Yeah. No wonder I like curiosity so much. I've always been curious because if I was told not to do it, then there was like an instant like, if you tell me not to do something.

Sage (33:57.12)
Yeah, we just talked about the one time she died. Like, I was like, okay, like what?

Sage (34:07.884)
Yeah, same. Okay, I got to. Yeah. And I mean, it's in all the stories, Adam and Eve, like Eve eating the apple, Lilith, Lilith not wanting to be of submission to Adam so that she becomes the snake that encourages Eve to eat the apple. be curious. Like that, it is the apple of knowledge. And curiosity is what evolves us because when we become curious about something, we inevitably learn something.

Kristin (34:21.814)
you

Sage (34:38.274)
And when we learn, we grow. It doesn't matter what we learn, it changes us. And I can see why society would not want that for us and would deem it, you know, scary or death-like or telling us to be wary of it or not go after it, to not be curious, to just be easily controlled. And I think that again, goes back to what I was saying before about RA really being about liberation.

Kristin (34:48.362)
yeah.

Sage (35:06.892)
Because when I get to dictate what my relationships are and what they mean to me and what I'm allowed to do and give myself freedom, no one will ever be able to tell me what I can and cannot do.

Kristin (35:18.623)
yeah, there's like an instant repellent for me if you me. I mean, in some ways.

Sage (35:20.994)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Kristin (35:29.686)
to say it kind of floated off into the ethers. I'm like right at that edge of my luteal.

Sage (35:31.68)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, same, same. I'm also about to start, girl. I'm like...

Kristin (35:37.11)
But between that and eclipse season, I'm like, yeah. And speaking of death, I'm like, I don't know if you're experiencing this. I feel like I'm on a new timeline, but I can still feel the crumbling of the old.

Sage (35:39.916)
I know.

Sage (35:46.092)
Yes. Yes. I literally, I just went through a breakup yesterday. So that was fun. Yeah. Restructuring. And so that was a new person I was seeing. so some this alignments came out and unfortunately it wasn't a good fit, but yeah, it's just, we're in this Venus retrograde. We're in this Mercury retrograde. So just, there's a lot surfacing right now for all of us. And I think in relationships in particular, this is the time that we're really like,

Kristin (35:52.163)
wow, wow, yeah. Yeah.

Sage (36:14.926)
pentos down on what is it that I actually value? What is it that I actually want? And that Aries Venus retrograde is really, she's spicy. She's like, no, no, no, no, I don't wanna, no, I don't want that. I don't wanna do that. I don't wanna do that.

Kristin (36:16.213)
Bye.

Kristin (36:24.31)
Yeah.

Yeah, tell me about it. am doing a burning. Yeah, I'm gonna do a burning ritual today or tomorrow because I shadow or like hidden desire beneath something came to their awareness and I was like, wow, I not even like I desired by I I went full force or you know came out as like a tantric healer or whatever shared all these different experiences. It would officially mean okay, no repair of this relate this form of relationship.

Sage (36:35.426)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (36:41.07)
Hmm.

Sage (36:48.811)
ooooh yeah yeah yeah

Sage (36:57.55)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (36:57.714)
That's what I was, know, the story I'm telling myself and all this stuff. And then I was, getting ready to move in a little while. So I'm like clearing and cleaning stuff. And then I'm looking at this like box of, you know, sentimental letters. And there's a part of me that is sentimental, but at the same time, I'm like, what am I cleaning on that for like, for the hope of a rekindle? And so I think it can be very powerful to have like this like sacred ceremony with myself and like read it and burn it and just, and create space, spaciousness.

Sage (37:13.068)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Sage (37:24.834)
create spaciousness because that's, I mean, that's all about eclipse season right now, right? Letting go what needs to let go so that you can welcome in what's new. you know, for a long time, I would always be like, what does that mean externally? Like, what does that mean for like my relationships? And then I'm like, no, we're talking about me. It's coming from inside the house, the call. Okay, got it, got it, got it, got it. Like the call is from inside. Okay. So me, I need to let go, like, and it's like my ego deaths, like constantly, right? Like.

Kristin (37:28.054)
Right.

Kristin (37:41.398)
Hahaha

Kristin (37:46.515)
I love you.

Sage (37:50.23)
Ooh, holding onto this value of male validation. Ooh, holding onto this feeling of needing to be desired. Ooh, and then realizing how much I keep myself in my own cages, right? Just put myself in these cages in my brain, doors open, no lock on it whatsoever, but I'm just in there. Can't, for some reason just won't go out the door.

Kristin (37:54.006)
Mmm.

Kristin (38:04.31)
Where

Kristin (38:14.678)
Like you got the pee dangling on your wrist?

Sage (38:15.86)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you're just like, don't know. Looking at other things, right? Yeah.

Kristin (38:20.139)
Yeah, well, probably because it's known, right? The known versus unknown thing. We know that version of ourself or that attachment to our identity or that piece of our ego or even though there may be this like wonderful, beautiful possibility that exists or that does exist in the unknown. It's like those safety mechanisms sometimes that keep me safe. It's like, like out for me, a big one. But the reason why I signed up for the Wild Woman thing,

Sage (38:24.814)
Yeah

Sage (38:39.5)
Yeah, protection.

Kristin (38:45.46)
was this, I was in this ketamine series and I came, I'm like, there's something about wild, like I guess I had reverted to like the good girl conditioning or I'm, there's like all my offerings that I know are like acceptable to, you know, are more palatable and they don't ruffle many feathers and da, da, da, da. And so, you know, my therapist was just like, yeah, you defaulted to like what was safe. And she's like that we're creating this new neural pathway to a new way of being.

Sage (38:56.938)
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kristin (39:13.206)
I was like, wow, yeah. So when I came across, was like, okay, yes, follow the wild.

Sage (39:20.268)
And I really feel this too, my good girl has been really, really active and it wasn't until we went to the Wild Woman retreat that I really started thinking about my bad girl. And honestly, Desire Forbidden, that is, she's all my bad girl. That whole business is my bad girl. She is the girl that was told she was too sexy to whatever. And it's crazy because...

Kristin (39:30.315)
room.

Kristin (39:34.26)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (39:44.192)
This idea in culture and Desire the Forbidden as much as it's about sexual liberation, it's about sexual liberation through education. And it's about knowing ourselves and being educated about sex in a way and about our bodies that gives us that liberation. And it's crazy to me because I felt like growing up I was kept, just kept getting fed all of this rhetoric and media about sexuality and how you needed to be sexy and desired and all this stuff and...

Kristin (39:52.17)
Mmm.

Kristin (40:00.554)
Mmm.

Sage (40:12.61)
you know, being Asian American and femme presenting and all of this, like all those intersections of, you know, seduction and fetishization and all of that, right, being propelled onto me, projected on every man that walked by me. and then having to sit with, but I'm not supposed to be that? Like this idea that like,

Kristin (40:17.098)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (40:35.03)
Man

Sage (40:37.118)
I'm getting all of this projected onto me and instead of actually what I want to do with it, which is alchemize the shit out of it because it's energy. Like lustful energy is still energy. Like, and it can get creepy and weird and all of those things, but at the same time, it's empowering for a reason, right? Like it's energy. And so I think that some of the strongest dark women that exist are people who can alchemize that energy.

Kristin (41:02.912)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (41:03.83)
And so I was noticing that I wanted to alchemize, but the good girl in me was like, don't do that. Don't touch that energy. Don't do anything with that energy. That energy is just meant to be received. And then you just have to sit in your discomfort about it. And it wasn't until my bad girl came online that she was like, some shit with it. Like do something with that. Like don't just let people project shit onto you and do nothing with it.

Kristin (41:12.488)
you

Kristin (41:27.136)
Yeah.

Sage (41:33.058)
because then it just sits and stagnates in your body. And for me with DTF, I'm kind of just like, yeah, I hope this ruffles your feathers. I hope it makes you upset. hope it makes you so upset that you think about things differently. I, and I think something that we talked about at the retreat is like, man, am I just so getting to a place of no longer feeling discomforted by activating people.

Kristin (41:42.549)
Yes.

Kristin (42:00.007)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sage (42:01.141)
because it is that good girl conditioning. Don't, don't, don't.

Kristin (42:04.146)
Yeah, and I think for sure, and I think the trigger is a glimmer in disguise. If you accept the opportunity to look at it and look at where it's coming from and possibly evolve or look at yourself, who knows? Like, why are you getting activated by something? Why is my expression making you have a response?

Sage (42:09.294)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (42:14.519)
Yeah.

Sage (42:18.7)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sage (42:28.49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's so interesting because for the longest time, I used to think activating people was wrong and it was bad. And that doing that made me a bad person. And that made me unsafe and made me not a good person to be around. I was actually just talking to one of my partners about this today about this idea of emotional regulation. I am all here for emotional regulation. I have a lot of relationships. I'm in conflict a lot. I'm in relationship conversations a lot.

Kristin (42:41.718)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (42:57.11)
I am here for emotional regulation, but I think something we do to women and that women do to each other is that we try to protect each other from our own feelings by trying to force regulation on each other. Like I was telling somebody like a girlfriend of mine about something really traumatic that had happened to me and I was super activated and I was, you know, having a pretty big response and I was so shocked by her response to me, which was like, yeah, it sounds like you're just like really activated right now. And I just,

Kristin (43:01.622)
Mmm.

Kristin (43:08.246)
Mmm.

Sage (43:27.052)
I think you just need some grounding and you're just better when you're grounded. And I'm like, it just made me feel so.

unable to express myself. Like it just, it came in for me that, and I would, that voice of like, see, you're too big again. You said, you said it too much. And I'm a Leo. I'm a Leo sun and a Leo moon. Like everything for me is dramatic. Like I, it's a lot of fire. Okay. My name is Scorpio rising. So it's just steamy. I'm just steamy in general. Like I'm just like, and so.

Kristin (43:37.43)
and

Kristin (43:43.638)
you

Kristin (43:57.686)
Love it.

Sage (44:02.924)
This is something I actually really struggle with and I don't know that I'm right about this, but this is something I really struggle with in the conversations of conflict or even relationship dynamics of I have to be calm, cool and collected to have a conversation with you about something like that. If something activates me, I have to take the time to like go away for a period of time to like regulate myself, to like come back and have the conversation. And I'm like, this is where this is where truth no longer becomes a part of the conversation because oftentimes what we do in regulation

Kristin (44:32.264)
and

Sage (44:33.056)
is we gaslight ourselves into believing the thing that we're upset about is not actually something to be upset about and then we walk ourselves back into a state of regulation where we're like everything is fine and I was just freaking out. Instead of being like, no, you didn't keep your word to me and that pissed me off. It pissed me off that you said something to me and then changed your mind and went and did something else. Doesn't mean you can't change your mind, but I'm still pissed off about it. And I would like to say that I'm pissed off about it.

Kristin (44:38.07)
Hmm

Kristin (44:48.391)
yeah.

Kristin (44:58.304)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Sage (45:01.526)
Instead of coming in and being like, well, we did this thing and it just really made me angry. like, just, I really struggle with this. And again, I don't think that I, I'm not gonna say I'm right because I do think that there is a lot to be said about emotional regulation. I do support the idea of emotional regulation. I do practice it. I also think sometimes we just need to pop off a little bit and you know what I mean? Like.

Kristin (45:17.824)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (45:25.398)
Yeah. I don't think now you're in both. There have been times where I'm like, okay, I don't want to say anything that's unkind. So let me go back and like, yeah. But then there have been times where I got, I was suppressed my emotional reaction versus, okay, maybe I needed to go and like hit some pillows or hump some pillows or scream or something. But so yeah, I mean, like maybe I kind of like to live in the ands where both, you know, both can be true.

Sage (45:39.522)
Yes!

Sage (45:43.456)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sage (45:50.627)
Yeah.

Well, and I think this is also for me something about, again, I don't know that I'm right about this, but I think it is something for me about being in relationship with each other, which is if I'm coming into a conversation, I'm like, I'm coming in hot. I'm having some emotions. I'm coming in hot. Like I'm about to pop off. You cool with that? Yes, you're cool. Then you should be able to hold space for me. No, you're not cool. Then I can go regulate on my own and come back if that's not going to work for you. And I think something that we all need to be better about

Kristin (46:06.112)
Yeah

Kristin (46:11.84)
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Mmhmm.

Sage (46:22.006)
is that when someone is speaking to us or saying something in a way we don't like, we need to be like, hey, I understand you're upset, but I need you to like really watch what you're saying to me right now because you're borderlining into being mean to me or being disrespectful to me instead of expressing yourself. And I think it's like, for me, the idea of that is so important to me, that not only can I show up to be respectful of you,

Kristin (46:32.79)
you

Hmm... Hmm...

Sage (46:49.23)
But can you show up to respect yourself enough to not allow me to treat you with disrespect? Right? Because you best believe if I'm in a conversation and somebody starts speaking to me some type of way I don't like, I'm going to be like, hey, I'm hearing you and I want to hold space for you, but please do not disrespect me. Please do not yell at me. Please do not curse at me. Please do not whatever. Continue though. I'd like to continue to hear you. And I think this idea that we've got, like there's just a lot that I feel like we've gotten to and in the relationship space of like, it's just so important that everyone comes to the table.

Kristin (46:51.37)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kristin (47:02.034)
Hello there. Hello there.

Sage (47:19.328)
emotionally regulated, with their feelings on a nice little bow and to the point that you are making, yes, we don't want to say things that are hurtful to each other or mean to each other. And I also think that safety in relationships is that I can make a mistake and be mean to you and you will still love me. And so if there's no room for us to make that mistake because we've controlled the environment so heavily to not allow for expression in a way that could lead to a mistake, it's kind of for me that idea that we're trying to control to create

Kristin (47:33.024)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kristin (47:43.03)
Hmmmm

Kristin (47:48.51)
Yeah.

Sage (47:49.772)
this relationship environment that maybe ultimately is healthiest, like I would argue that maybe that is the healthiest, but it is not maybe the most authentic. And that is kind of where I rub into some tension is how do you stay in a healthy relationship and do healthy work while also still being able to be authentic and express yourself?

Kristin (47:58.997)
Yeah.

Kristin (48:08.765)
Yeah, yeah, because I could also see where you could be held to an unrealistic expectation of like perfection. You know, like this, if this is, you know, if I'm expressing myself or in a certain way or I have to walk away, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. I like the freedom to make messes. The beauty in the mess. The masterpiece, yeah.

Sage (48:15.544)
Yes. Yeah.

Sage (48:23.598)
Yeah, and I think, yes, yeah. The beauty and the mess and the, yeah, and being able to, I think this is so important. The reality is anybody you enter in a relationship with 100 % of the time, you will hurt them. Some way, or form, there is going to be hurt in the relationship, period, point blank. There's no avoiding it. Because when we get into relationship with people, we naturally activate and trigger them. So they are going to be hurt. And you are absolutely gonna make mistakes because nobody is perfect.

Kristin (48:37.674)
Hmm.

Kristin (48:42.582)
you

Sage (48:52.288)
So for me, it's always about how do we continue to co-create an environment where mistakes can happen and where we can show up and hurt each other and still have repair. And that rate that comes with the level of consciousness that we're not abusing each other or hurting each other in a way that is toxic or creating a bunch of turmoil. But if there's no room for hurting each other and there's no room for mistakes.

Kristin (49:09.365)
Yeah.

Sage (49:16.82)
I personally don't believe that's a safe or healthy relationship because then you can't fully be authentic because authentic expression is making mistakes and hurting people.

Kristin (49:23.968)
Yeah, and I think that, you know, so much of the human experience is to be felt. Like, I feel like we came here to feel all of the emotions and so suppressing it or not expressing it in some manner is like kind of denying a part of our humanness too.

Sage (49:30.092)
You see? You see?

Sage (49:39.532)
Yes. And I think the thing that activates a lot of people about that is that people don't feel comfortable holding people in their feelings without feeling a sense of responsibility to either change or save or whatever. Right. And this happens a lot in polyamory and relationship anarchy because jealousy comes up or feelings of whatever come up. And yeah, I had to look at my part. Yeah. And I've had to look at my partners and be like, I am feeling really jealous and I am feeling really sad.

Kristin (49:45.428)
Hmm. Hmm. yeah.

Kristin (49:54.74)
yeah.

inferiority or

Sage (50:04.386)
But I still want you to go on this date. like, please don't not go on this date. Like, you know what I mean? It it will actually make me lose respect for you. If you don't go on this date, I want you to be able to look me in my face and disappoint me and go on this date. Yeah. And pursue your desire. Yes. Yes. Because how can I be sure that you want to be with me? If you're suppressing your desire to be with someone else.

Kristin (50:06.172)
Yeah.

Kristin (50:12.534)
Mmm. Mmm.

And pursue your desire or your highest. Wow.

Kristin (50:26.258)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You know, I just had a question come up. because I was chatting with someone and they have a theory and I don't know if it's true or not about like being able to go deeper if you just have one relationship versus if you're experiencing yourself and neither one is good or bad. I like are you able to go deeper in one relationship or can you go deep in multiple?

Sage (50:30.808)
Please, please, please.

Sage (50:38.862)
Sure, sure.

Sage (50:47.374)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Sage (50:53.592)
Hmm, this is a really good question. Yeah. I think so too. And this is actually something I've been complimented on by my partners is like they're like, wow, you're just really deep with all of your partners. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I want. And I think the reality is like, and I'm gonna say this in a way that kind of sounds egotistical and I'm just gonna let my bad girl be okay with that. Oftentimes our relationships are a reflection of who we are.

Kristin (50:55.254)
Cause I kind of feel like you can go deep in multiple.

Hmm.

Kristin (51:07.254)
Yeah.

Kristin (51:17.258)
Say it. Yeah, please say it.

Kristin (51:22.869)
Hmm.

Sage (51:23.682)
And the reality is I know myself to be a very deep, deep, deep person. And if I am putting boundaries on depth, if I am saying that depth is only allowed to happen or can only happen with one person, I'm not fully experiencing the range of my depth because the depth that I have with one person will never look like the depth I have with another person.

and the depth I feel with one person will never be the depth I feel with another person. And so if what I'm saying is I'm going to sacrifice depth with other people to just focus on depth with one person, I'm actually robbing myself of depth in so many different timelines and versions of myself, right? And I think in terms of going deep with people, it's about how you use the time together. If I'm spending time with you, what are we doing in that time? Are we just watching TV and staring at each other?

Kristin (51:56.372)
Hmm.

Kristin (52:04.982)
Mmm. Mmm. So good.

Kristin (52:15.147)
Yeah.

Sage (52:17.738)
Or are we doing somatic practices together? Are we doing Kundalini together? Are we doing yoga together? Are we eye gazing? Are we doing sensual practices together? Are we having a new experience? Are we going somewhere and talking about philosophy? like depth, I think, is so vast and diverse. And when we think about depth, we can think about it in the romantic way, right? I go deep romantically with someone, but maybe with my friend, I go philosophically deep in a way that I don't get deep like that with

Kristin (52:25.194)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (52:47.666)
anybody else. And with relationship anarchy, it is valuing those depths equally versus saying that the romantic depth I'm getting in one relationship is better or more valuable than the philosophical depth or the connection depth that I'm getting with someone else or the physical connection depth I'm getting with someone else. Yeah, I do too. I'm like, I don't know how not to go deep with people. It's like just naturally how I am. so

Kristin (52:48.95)
you

Kristin (52:55.829)
Hmm.

Kristin (53:01.098)
Mmm, yeah.

Kristin (53:09.398)
I love that and I love Deb's.

Sage (53:17.582)
I can go deep with a stranger I just met on the street. Like, you know what I mean? I, yeah. And so I guess to your question, I think that's why I think it is possible because even though I'm in romantic relationships that are very deep, I can absolutely meet someone on the street today and have a very deep conversation with them. So I'm curious, what do you think about that?

Kristin (53:21.098)
Me too. I want to find what happens sometimes.

Kristin (53:32.822)
Yeah.

Kristin (53:37.916)
no, I think that we can have depth with more than one person. But yeah, so he was kind of exploring that he's like, okay, no, I think that you can really only go deep with that one. I'm like, disagree. Yeah. You're calling it like choosing deeper, choosing wide. And both are pathways for like growth and evolution. But yeah, just experiencing yourself, guess, through one versus the multiple.

Sage (53:41.196)
Yeah, yeah.

Sage (53:52.29)
Yeah. Well, and I think it's.

Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (54:07.21)
Yeah, but I kind of, because I've been deep with so many people and I love that your distinction around in different types of ways that, yeah, I can totally go deep. And I identify as like a sapiosexual. So I'm like, got to get me on, I got to go deep. Yeah, vulnerable heart. Yes. Yeah.

Sage (54:10.262)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Sage (54:18.21)
Same, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a demisexual too, like it's very emotional for me, yeah. So I like need to have like a super deep emotional connection with someone. And that's like, that's the fun part. That's been the fun part for me, is like, I am so attuned with my body because of RA, I am so aware of being able to tell someone, this is just a platonic connection. This is actually, this is actually feeling romantic for me. actually this is feeling familial to me. This is feeling like caretaker energy for me. This is feeling like.

Kristin (54:26.119)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (54:35.454)
Hmm.

Kristin (54:45.866)
Hmm.

Sage (54:46.978)
You know, I wanna be somebody that's in and out of your life like a little comet that flies through the sky every so often. And like being able to, right, yeah. And like, how beautiful is it to give someone the surety of your truth to say, hey, I do feel something. Because this is the other thing. You feel things with people sometimes. And sometimes that's not romantic.

Kristin (54:52.202)
Yeah.

And much do we love comets or shooting stars?

Kristin (55:12.362)
Yeah.

Sage (55:12.46)
and we don't talk about what we're feeling because it doesn't fall into the romantic bucket. And so then you don't get to say things like, hey, I'm actually feeling really close to you and like, I want to hold hands with you and be close to you, but I'm not actually feeling like I want to be romantic with you or have a romantic relationship with you. But being around you feels warm and being around you feels really nice. And so can our friendship hold space for physical affection and hugging and cuddling and holding hands? Sure, if that's what I want, right?

Kristin (55:29.13)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (55:39.03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Sage (55:42.318)
And that freedom of knowing myself so deeply that when somebody also makes me an invitation, I know with my own truth how to respond to that invitation. Because this is something I'm noticing a lot in some people, is that their inability to not mirror someone's desire for them. So someone desires them and instead of actually desiring them back, they just mirror that desire back to them.

Kristin (55:52.288)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (56:06.734)
and they think they're in desire with that person, but then they get in a relationship and then they end up not being in desire with that person, so then they break up. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of that happening, and it's because it's a misalignment of where people are actually at in the relationship, and because we have this feeling that we have to give in order to get. So let's say I meet someone and they're like, I wanna get married and have kids and all of this stuff, and I'm like.

Kristin (56:09.97)
Kristin (56:18.473)
Hmm.

Kristin (56:22.197)
Yeah.

Kristin (56:27.328)
Mmm.

Sage (56:32.757)
man, I would really just like to lay it down with you a couple times. Like, you're just really attractive. I'm really connecting with, I was just, I wasn't gonna be that serious for me. You know what I mean? If I wasn't doing RA or if I wasn't tuned into my body enough to know, like that wasn't right for me, it would be very easy for me to just slip into a place of, well, let's maybe hook up a little bit and then, but because this person would continue to advocate for their desire, I would f-

How many times have we heard that story? They fall into that situation where they end up getting together, get married, and then are miserable. Because the attunement to the desire that they have, they don't feel comfortable mirroring that back to the desire that the other person has, right? And they don't want to meet that other person's desire with tension, which is that it's not fully aligned. And so people will lie or mislead or suppress their own desire to then

Kristin (57:01.942)
Mmm. Yeah.

Kristin (57:22.294)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (57:29.304)
just align with what the other person wants because they're just kind of reflecting that desire back and forth. Versus being truth. Yeah.

Kristin (57:33.31)
Mm-hmm. Versus being honest or having the courageous conversation or the self-inquiry. Yeah. Yeah, no, I I felt sometimes before too where I could sense, you know, someone may be coming because they think they want a sexual relationship with me, but I'm like, are you sure you don't want just like healing or I remind you of like a parental figure or like, you know, it's so, yeah.

Sage (57:48.704)
Yeah. Yes, yes. And sexual energy and healing energy are so aligned, so freaking aligned. And so you're right, especially as spiritual beings, like the more spiritual you are, the more people are attracted to your healing quality. And then if you're attractive on top of that, if you're also like kind on top of that warm.

It can be really confusing for people to have to detangle that and be like, what is it that I actually want out of this connection? And unless you are someone who genuinely has to think about what do I actually want or what does that relationship structure look like, it can feel very easy to be like, nope, I just want to be in a relationship. Because you feel that initial pull and you don't know how to detangle what that pull actually means. And you're like, nope, I feel the pull that equals relationship.

Kristin (58:16.694)
Mm-hmm.

Kristin (58:37.768)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (58:41.698)
And so I see that so many times with people where they're like, I don't know, I'm just attracted to this person. I feel connected to them. So that means we're going to get married and have a relationship. And I'm like, baby girl, what if that just means you just want to hang out with them?

Kristin (58:51.186)
Yeah, or he had a book recommendation for you. Like that's why one thing I took away from ISTA was like the following of desires and curiosities. And I'm like, dang it, I should have gone up to that first. Noted for future is that you may have a conversation with someone and it could be that they're going to give you a book recommendation or something as simple as that, that you don't know why necessarily or where the desire is necessarily coming from. But

Sage (59:09.964)
Yeah, yeah.

Kristin (59:16.448)
Like explore it, be open, be curious. This whole episode, I like it's been one big mic drop, by the way.

Sage (59:20.686)
Thank you. I'm so glad. I just enjoyed talking with you about it. And I really loved that you asked me about it at the retreat too. It's something I'm trying to be more vocal about. tend to, again, the good girl in me, I'm like, I'm not monogamous, so I should be quiet because nobody cares or nobody wants to be disrupted by that, right? Or activated by that or triggered by that, right? And I really appreciated you giving me so much space to just talk about it and to not feel like even if people were triggered or feeling some type of way about it that...

that there was space and room for me to talk about it. So thank you. Thank you for that.

Kristin (59:52.752)
Yeah, I think it offers an opportunity or a possibility. Especially if you never have heard or know or have looked into it for yourself. And so I'm thankful that you came here with such wisdom and clarity and ways of verbalizing things with such potent language. like, boom, boom, boom. I don't even think I asked you. I had made up some questions just in case. I don't even think I got to those. I may have to have you on again. Yeah.

Sage (59:57.015)
Yeah.

Sage (01:00:01.056)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sage (01:00:12.014)
I'm so glad!

Yeah.

I would love that. I love talking about relationships and I love talking about all of this. And I'm glad that you're also in your own exploration and I'm super excited to watch you grow in that. yeah, for anyone who's listening to this and is thinking about, you know, what can relationships look like for me? Again, nothing is ever permanent. So even if you're like, let me just take six months or a year to like play around with a love style that maybe doesn't feel super secure for me or it gives me some discomfort just to see what I can learn about myself.

Kristin (01:00:27.176)
Mm-hmm.

Sage (01:00:47.884)
I would encourage you to do that. Like just cause you are a relationship anarchist for a little while doesn't mean you have to be that way forever. Just cause you do polyamory for a little while doesn't mean you have to be that way forever. Just cause you've been doing monogamy doesn't mean you have to stay with monogamy. And again, I want you to pick what is best for you, right? There is no right or wrong answer. There's just the answer that is best for you. But if anyone needs a little permission, if their bad girl needs a little permission, this is your permission. Like step out here, we're ready to see you, we're ready to be with you.

Kristin (01:00:55.722)
Yeah.

Kristin (01:01:01.087)
Yeah.

Sage (01:01:15.212)
and there are people ready to receive you and hold you in your desires and meet you there.

Kristin (01:01:19.52)
Mm-hmm. And maybe check out DTF. I love the acronym. Kudos to your bad girl for coming up with that.

Sage (01:01:22.454)
Yes, come check out DTF. Anytime. I know girl, I couldn't help myself. was like, well, here we are. And it's crazy because, my gosh, I was having such a, it was crazy because I actually had that spiritual download like while I was in a sexual interaction with one of my partners, I literally was like, hook me up. I was like, let's do this thing. I was like, I need some downloads and he serviced me so well. It was so great. And for like an hour I was just like, that, that, that like downloads. And I'm like,

talking to him about it, like while he's, it was great. was, he's my, yeah. So again, like, again, the idea with partners that you can utilize them for all sorts of different various ways for your own evolution and growth, right? This partner that I'm talking about, we have like an ongoing agreement that anytime I'm like, hey, I need to download some stuff for the business. He's like, I'm coming. And so like, you know what I mean? It's just.

Kristin (01:01:51.527)
Love it!

Sage (01:02:16.8)
It's so beautiful to get to explore people in that way and to open yourself up because had I not been open or receptive to the idea that something like that could happen for me, I would have never found it. And now I'm so grateful for all of the beautiful ways that DTF has come together because I've allowed myself to explore downloads in a more free way or explore expressing myself in a more free way and really letting the bad girl come out to be like, yeah, it's all good. It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

Kristin (01:02:42.698)
Yeah, roar. Yes, roar, play. Well, thank you so much. Yes. Let me.

Sage (01:02:48.138)
Yes, play. Yes, thank you for having me on here. I'm so grateful. Yeah.