112. He Was Arrested One Block From Where I Lived | Ashley Spence on Surviving Assault, Faith, & DNA Justice

Ashley Spence is the founder of the DNA Justice Project, the author of Silent Witness: How DNA Uncovered the Truth and Empowered my Healing, and a survivor whose story I won't spoil here because it deserves to be heard in her own voice.

What I will say: this is a conversation about what it takes to come back home to your body, your voice, and your faith after something tries to take all three. 

If this topic feels close to home, take care of yourself as you listen.

Connect with Ashley:
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ashleyespence/
DNA Justice Project: https://www.dnajusticeproject.org/

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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:00.546)
Hey y'all, welcome back to another episode of Sex, Drugs, and Soul. Today's episode might hit a little different. I spent a lot of time on the podcast talking about intimacy, sexuality, connection, how to expand, deepen, and make it more alive. But there's also a shadow side to these conversations that doesn't get talked about enough, and that's trauma, assault, and what it takes to come back home to yourself after something like that. Today's guest, Ashley Spence.

carries a story of surviving something unimaginable and not just surviving, transforming her life in a way that's deeply powerful, reclaiming and rebuilding. She's the founder of the DNA of Justice Project and the author of Silent Witness, which I finished last night. And this conversation is about truth, healing, faith, and what it means to come back to your voice, your body and your life. If this topic feels a little too close to home for you, take care of yourself as you listen. And if you've ever felt disconnected, broken, or like something was taken from you,

I hope this conversation feels like a lighthouse. I usually don't offer like little, what I feel like is a trigger warning like that, but I felt like today's conversation necessitated one, or like needed one. So thank you so much for coming on. I feel like you are such a lighthouse.

speaker-1 (01:08.647)
I feel the same about you. Thank you so much for having me on here. I think we have lot of connections in different realms. sure.

speaker-0 (01:14.954)
I was reading your book and I was like, wow, this hits, this try. I'm like, teary-eyed. And even on the way here, was like, God, I can already feel myself getting emotional. And which I think is a good thing and I value it. I'm like, I'm not even at that point in my cycle. I'm I'm on fail week and I'm like, it runs over. But I think I want to rewind and start.

I feel like if people looked at you today, they might not know exactly. And you kind of hinted in the book, like on the outside, everything looked good. But I want to circle back to before then, like I guess to 2003 or who you were before 2003. And that kind of go on your full story trajectory to sort of kind of give people like the overall picture.

speaker-1 (01:59.862)
You know, I was so excited at the time I was 19, you know, and I was thrilled to be free. I'm born and raised in Austin. So for me, like having that freedom was so exciting. And so I was at Arizona State. I went there for my freshman year. I lived in the dorm. And then I was super stoked because I was going to move in to my first apartment, you know, like totally on my own and a new roommate. And, you know, I was very blessed. I had a very good upbringing. My parents are still married.

They instilled incredible values in my siblings and I. you know, honestly, in that way, I never could have imagined what was going to happen. That did.

speaker-0 (02:38.776)
I love the relationship that I got from like you and your dad, especially in your parents in general. was like, that father daughter bond, feel like is so special, but I love that you had that upbringing. So you moved there, about how long did you move there before, I feel like the night that shifted your life on a different trajectory happened.

speaker-1 (02:58.03)
You know, I was only there about a week or a week and a half, but I went there early because I was like, I'm ready to go out, like be on my own. they moved us. We were in a really big apartment complex in Phoenix, and so it was primarily college-aged students. And since we were there like a week and a half before school, it wasn't full yet. So the complex was a bit desolate at the time and they had us on the ground floor in the corner, building K. And, you know, really at the time, the only thing that surrounded us was an empty parking lot, like a

a gate and trees that led to a neighborhood behind. I just remember so vividly, I was on the phone with my mom, her and I had grown closer once I moved out of the house. We had our struggles, but we got really close once I went to college. I just remember though, the sun was setting and it was one of those really hot Arizona nights and the sky was turning shades of pink into purple and then fading into darkness.

sat on the phone on the patio and all of sudden out of nowhere in the pit of my belly, like my guts, something felt terribly wrong. And you you've talked a lot about like anxiety, different things, you know, that feels like light and you know, your chest and heart's racing and you don't feel grounded for me with anxiety at least, but this was not. It was like eerily a deep inner knowing.

like something is very, wrong. But I didn't know what it was. thought maybe because I was going to a bar with my friends and I was 19 and I was like, oh gosh, I hope I don't get in trouble tonight.

speaker-0 (04:27.611)
I'm not gonna get caught.

speaker-1 (04:29.966)
something just silly, you know, for being out. I had no idea what my premonition was screaming, and I don't think I could have changed anything, but, you know, my girlfriends and I went out, and then we came back to the apartment, and, you know, there's a picture actually that was taken on my sofa of me and the girls. That night, we were so excited to be reunited. Some were from Minnesota, you know, we're from all over. And it got really late. One of our friends, Gianna, her...

her boyfriend suffered a very tragic loss in high school. so, you know, as girls do, we were just up, were consoling her, we were talking. And there was multiple times I said, you know, girls, it's getting so late. Why don't you just stay here? But they were all going to sorority rush the next day. And so they eventually got in cabs and said, you know, we have to go home. And I mean, I just, felt so blessed growing up feeling safe always. And this night changed everything.

speaker-0 (05:26.254)
I mean, like completely, I could see or feel and resonate like how it could completely like rock you or like enrattle you like to your core. And it's like, wow, like what the life you envision for, know, college and all that stuff, like suddenly like, we're gonna take like a hard curve. And it's interesting to me too, like that inner knowing. And sometimes I'm like, my body can sense.

what I feel like is nonlinear time, like my body already knows like something is happening and it's like maybe communicating. It's like you didn't know.

speaker-1 (05:58.382)
Right? I didn't know. you know, I went to bed that night and you know, I do, I hope, you know, I know everyone has their stories, but I also think it's important to talk about these things because so much of this darkness, like you have shared yours and you know, we let it live and we feel ashamed, but it's not our shame to carry. you know, I went to bed and I always slept on my belly. I didn't think anything of it. I put a pillow behind my head because it would just block the light out and the noise. unfortunately, while I was asleep, an intruder came into my apartment.

and into my bed and I'm not gonna go into a lot of details, but I remember feeling him tear off my clothes and those nightmares that we have, right? I kept being like, wake up Ashley, wake up, this is a nightmare wake up. And really quickly I realized, my God, this is not a nightmare and I'm gonna have to fight for my life. And I endured his torture for hours, but I'm very, very blessed cause I'm here. But before he left, I never saw his face and he said, don't tell anybody cause I'll kill you.

and I'll be watching you just like I was before.

speaker-0 (06:59.544)
You know, so it's, know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. And I was trying to think of, I remember in your book too, where you mentioned, you you said fight for your life, but I feel like one of the things that you had to do is be like, okay, if I'm gonna live through this, I have to like let it happen and then move on or figure out how. don't know what all was like cohesive in that moment, but it's like, wow, what a, it's like die or let it happen and then move forward.

speaker-1 (07:28.622)
Right, or try. I feel very lucky because I called 911 and I had a very compassionate first responding law enforcement officer and I know that is not always the case for victims. because of him, I was guided to the next step and I didn't know and what I think is important for me to tell people is I knew nothing about a rape kit or a forensic exam and so he knew that I didn't see who did it. So he said, we're gonna have to take you down to

speaker-0 (07:30.382)
I-

speaker-1 (07:58.01)
get forensic evidence and I was just like, feel disgusting. I want to shower. I want to brush my teeth, just the things that make me feel human and normal. wanted to get them off me, but he just was kind and said, you can't shower, you can't brush your teeth, but you will be safe. I think what is also important to talk about is what I didn't know about the process. You can go into sexual assault nurse examination and you actually don't have to press charges.

speaker-0 (08:22.606)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (08:23.298)
So someone can go, they can get the medical care that they need, they can have the evidence collected in case they want to, but they are not forced to press charges. And so I try to encourage everybody to at least, if God forbid you go through this, to take that step.

speaker-0 (08:36.994)
I think that's a good point too. It's like if you can come to a point later on where you may want to have had that in the past. And so you go through that. How do you even begin to like go back to school or like, you know, find your way?

speaker-1 (08:55.148)
You know, I was terrified. I couldn't do things like washing my face, because it meant like for a brief moment in time, my eyes would be shut. I was constantly looking over my shoulder. Because I mean, if you think about it, at this point, it was all over the news. And he said, don't tell anybody I will kill you. And so I'm like, he's going to kill me. And I tried to go back to school. I had bruises all over me. And I remember it was like a week later. And I'm like, I'm not going to let it stop me. And I sat in class. And I had this.

terrifying panic attack like my chest. I felt like the whole room was caving in. I had to sprint out and one of my girlfriends, you know, she ran after me. But I'm like, is he sitting behind me? Is he watching me? He's gonna kill me, you know? And it was terrifying. I had to drop out of school eventually because I could not take it anymore because there were no leads.

speaker-0 (09:39.406)
Yeah, that's quite, I feel like it's one thing if you see the person and like, and not to compare anything, but to not have, have a face to put to that person. It's like, then who are you looking for? Who are you to be on that? Look, you know, look for search for someone. It's like, I don't even have a frame of reference, maybe a voice, but maybe, you know, maybe, maybe not in the.

speaker-1 (09:49.432)
looking for.

speaker-1 (09:59.436)
Right, well what's interesting about that is so there was a guy, so my roommate had a few people over in that shorter amount of time that we were in school and there were these two guys that she had over one night and I remember, you know, she was, we had the master area where you have the TV and everything and they wanted to watch Ted Bundy and I didn't know who that was. shit. Yeah, like what the hell? And then, I mean, I was like a pretty good girl, you know, like I a free spirit but I'm like, God, that is freaking like disgusting. And so I went to my room and watched the strap.

speaker-0 (10:28.45)
Yes.

speaker-1 (10:29.102)
You know, like, my God, that's so disturbing. What is wrong with these people? But the night that we went out, we saw them out. And then he called my apartment at 3 a.m., this guy. And I already had a creepy feeling from him. So my brain automatically was like, there's no other way it has to be this guy. I was calling him with detectives, recording the phone, accusing him of coming into my bedroom that night. And, you know, the...

Police collected DNA voluntarily from over 50 people. that's all, then they ran out of people because the school hadn't started yet. And this guy finally gave his DNA and it took a while to return. And when it came back, it wasn't a match. I was shocked. I was shocked. I thought for sure it's this guy. And then it's also scary because I'm like, God, how could I be so wrong? And without that evidence, I would have literally gone to the grave thinking it was this guy and it wasn't, you know, but.

speaker-0 (11:08.312)
Yeah. wow.

speaker-1 (11:23.866)
The fear became so much, I just totally dropped out of school and moved to Newport Beach, California. And, you know, I tried to just not tell anybody. And I was like, I'm just gonna be Ashley. I'm not gonna be a victim. It's gonna be amazing. I'm gonna start fresh, but shit, it was not like that.

speaker-0 (11:39.95)
Like new slate, new city. ocean waters.

speaker-1 (11:43.458)
gonna know. Exactly. I'm a Pisces, you know. So that's what I thought. it took me down a very, very scary path. And I don't, you I know that you talk a lot about this too, but with like substance abuse, wasn't because I was, I just did not care. I didn't care about my body. I wasn't connected to my body. I was living in constant fear. I wasn't living my truth because no one knew. Like, how can you keep, I feel like so many of us and we have to, we don't have to go around telling everybody all that shit that we've been through. But

There is a level of like when we go through so much, we hold it in and we're just pretending on the outside that everything's fine, but it's not. And I was self-medicating so severely, like going to the hospital from over drinking multiple times, you know, and my life is really spiraling.

speaker-0 (12:31.49)
Yeah, I think that's a good point too. It's like, even as we're walking out through our day to day life, you never know what someone else is carrying and they're probably wearing a mask to shield some of it or, you know, at least some kind of protective mechanism in a way. And then, so yeah, okay, the drinking, I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, do I give this part away yet? I'm like, no, we'll get to that part later. Whatever things are discovered about the intruder, perpetrator. And so you go there.

speaker-1 (12:55.579)
yes.

speaker-0 (13:00.788)
What shifted between like the numbing with like alcohol and substances and stuff to like a little bit on a different path or what what happened?

speaker-1 (13:09.238)
rock bottom, you know, and then I would drink so much and then I would be so depressed and I would take Nyquil during the day and my poor roommate, so she moved with me, Gianna from Arizona. She wanted to start fresh too, right? Because everything that she had been through in Arizona wasn't quite the fit. so, you know, but God bless her because she put up with so much for me, you know, and it makes me emotional. We were actually just in Vegas with her husband. They used to call me the tricycle because they like protected and took care of me. But we saw Luke Combs together. But now, you know,

I look back on that and I'm like, what they had to endure because I would go missing at the bar, you know, just totally out of control. And then I would come off these alcohol benders and I would be so severely depressed because all of a sudden it hits you again. And so I wouldn't come out of my room. I would just stay in the dark, you know? the level that, you know, assault and this victimization, doesn't just impact like us as victims. It literally tears communities apart, families.

You know, the friends, I think about my girlfriends, what they had to endure with a serial predator on the loose at college that they didn't know what it was either. That's scary, you know? And she finally was just like, Ashley, I want you to come to this yoga class with me. And I'm like, oh, fucking yoga. No, and my mom had done it growing up and I thought she was such a freak because she'd be in there like doing the weird belly breathing. And I'm like, what is wrong with you? never doing that. I think it's so bizarre.

speaker-0 (14:20.789)
Like no

speaker-1 (14:34.112)
I was like, fine. I really went for her more than me, honestly. And, know, in retrospect, I didn't put it together at the time, but going to a place where I had to, you know, unroll a yoga mat and connect your breath and your body, and it's so focused on that, I was so disconnected from my body. you know, I was really disgusted by it. I was like, this is not mine anymore. Like, I have no connection, you know? I was so, so lost and so disconnected and like disgusted in a way.

just it didn't, I felt foreign in my own self. So that made me like connect to it. And I remember it was a first class and I wanted to just roll up my mat and run out. But literally in that moment, like this beautiful teacher comes in and she has this big curly hair and like a white beaming smile and just this energy that just lit up the room. And like, I felt a sense of safety with her, think. And I remember she started class just saying, you know, we're all coming from different walks of life. My husband has cancer right now and

You know, it doesn't matter where you're coming from, but you're here and you just do what you can. And started unweaving like I would only go to her classes, but it started to really clear me and get me on a good path. I know you have that too.

speaker-0 (15:41.55)
Yeah, thank God for yoga. I was like, what a thing to be wrong about with your mom. Like, I'm never doing that. I know. know you're going to later open a yoga studio. Yes, absolutely. And like, oh yeah, I love yoga. I feel like it can be looked at. It's like, yeah, yoga is such a sanctuary too.

speaker-1 (15:49.279)
And then of course.

speaker-1 (16:01.422)
I know!

It is, and it is, and I remember it's in its strength and like there's so many different realms and waves and styles obviously, but I remember I was in like warrior two and I felt my power come back, power that I thought was taken. And then, know, I'm an airplane pose and I'm balancing on one leg and I have to be sober, you know, it's like, and I was sweating and I just remember finally, cause I still couldn't sleep at night. I would say like the most haunting thing was not just that he was out there, but I knew he was, I knew.

I knew he was doing it to other people. And I would just hear this perpetual muffled scream of women in my head every night that I would try to close my eyes. It was the most haunting thing. And I even look back at pictures and my eyes were just sunken in. Maybe like, I was at Stevie Nicks last night. That's why mine are a little dark today.

speaker-0 (16:51.182)
I got a laser done, so I'm not trying to hide like the little dots thing.

speaker-1 (16:54.638)
But it was because I couldn't sleep and you know, it terrified me but she played let it be it was like my eighth yoga class and she like dimmed the lights and put let it be over the speakers and You know, my mom's name is Mary and it's like when I find myself in times of trouble mother Mary comes to me I have it tattooed on my shoulder now let it be but you know, I just started crying and I didn't want the room to hear me I was still so embarrassed, you know, but the tears just like

rolled off my cheeks onto the mat and I was able in that moment to realize like, I can't control what happened, but I need to take control of my life and maybe by surrendering and accepting, know, like I can't change the outcome. I don't know that I'm ever gonna find this person, but like let it be. And I was able to surrender a bit, close my eyes and find rest for the first time unmedicated, totally sober in a room that wasn't mine.

you know, not worried about what was behind me. And so she gave me a blessing that truly helped get me clear. I ended up going back to college, graduated, got a job, things that I thought were just never gonna happen for me.

speaker-0 (18:01.59)
beyond the normal possibility. I wanted to circle back to you touched on how it affects other people. And I feel like that's an interesting and good point too, like your community, your family, friends. And I feel like a lot of times friends wanna be there for us, but maybe they don't know exactly, they're probably fighting their own and like, this is impacting. And a friend just posted something about grief that kind of resonated in that same way as far as like, let me know what you need. We're like, I don't fucking know what I need. So it's like, right.

But so it's like, we want to be there and compassionate and empathetic, have our own stuff impacted. So it's like coming at different angles. I just think that's an interesting point. And I love that yoga helped like illuminate a new path and even like in your story, like just hearing you say, let it be, it feels like a deep breath and like a relaxation and let it go. Yeah. Yeah. It's like.

speaker-1 (18:53.47)
Like, bit by bit, and it's slow, and you know this, and like the healing, I hate to be cliche, it's just not, it's messy, and you're gonna be fine one day, and you're gonna be terrible. You know, like it's just this riding the waves, but each time you surrender and you let go, whether it's sharing your story, whether it's yoga, whatever it is, you do become lighter. And you know, I think part of it too is, and this gets hard to hear, I think if I would have heard it in my hardest times, I would have been resentful, but like we have to also pull ourselves out of like,

the victim mentality. For sure. know, and I hate to say

speaker-0 (19:25.646)
But it's true!

speaker-1 (19:27.958)
Because it's like we can't, the only ones that suffer are us. If we live in that, like it's, there's grief I have for, and I mean, now this has been so long, you know, this was 2003. But you know, the level that you have to, you know, I have grief for the years that I think I've missed and just for mistakes I made along the way, because I was, I have compassion for what I was going through. But I think you've, you know, you've had similar experiences in your own way that it's just like not moments I'm not proud of in life.

the person that I was after that for a while, but it's because I was living in such pain and then I was projecting it out on others unknowingly. And you know, it's just like we have to take ownership. We can't control what's happened to us, but we can control how we heal. And we have to always put that at the forefront, you know, and of our mind and also just getting back to joy and like freedom and, you know, peace.

speaker-0 (20:20.204)
Yeah, that reminds me what your dad said about looking for the light or finding a light. I love that. I'm like, we find what you're looking for. And it's so true. Like I had that moment or realization. It's like the more I like rehash and hash, I was like, realized that I was re-victimizing myself versus like what the person may have done, you know, once or more occasions. And so I think that's a powerful choice to make. But I feel like people can get wrapped up in the identity of it.

speaker-1 (20:26.19)
Absolutely.

speaker-0 (20:48.162)
and get maybe some attention or comfort from staying in that or it becomes normal. So it is a powerful and strong decision to step out of it, but I definitely encourage it.

speaker-1 (20:57.942)
Yes, and it takes time, but it's like really, it's like that's the most, because people, I always think about this, the guy that did this to me, he had multiple victims. He probably didn't, he didn't even remember me, but he, yeah, he shattered my life, you know? And it's like the more that I just stayed stuck in that dark place, and it takes time, okay? And you have to let yourself grieve and there will be the darkness that comes in, but I think that's what, you know, like finding the light and the shadow. It's like, there's...

There are these two elements and you're always gonna have, but you can't have the light without the darkness, darkness without light. Like it goes together, but it's how we learn to kind of navigate, navigate the two.

speaker-0 (21:37.122)
make and I feel like we can choose to assign the meaning to those situations too but we'll get into that later because I feel like that's part of like what you got going on now. So I'm like thank God for yoga and you go to school and that so okay take me a little bit more on the on the path or the journey.

speaker-1 (21:54.926)
Yeah, so I graduated school and then I ended up meeting my husband, who is the father of my children. We're no longer together, but we're very fortunate to have a good co-parenting relationship. He's a wonderful dad. at the time, we didn't have kids, but I thought, I still don't have closure. None of my friends there knew what was going on, what I had been through. But I said, I'm finally starting to heal and get my shit together.

tap into that spark again. I was still kind of a lost person when I look back, but I was feeling moments of joy and happiness. And I said, I just want to go back and live in Austin now and share the joys of my life with my parents because they've been through, we've just been through so much. And so we moved back to Austin and I just got a shocking phone call. So this was 2010.

I had just come back from a wanderless yoga festival. So was like, know, four days in the mountain. Yes, literally, was so happy and not much longer after that I got a call that there was a DNA match.

speaker-0 (22:54.702)
I'm gonna buy some rainbows.

speaker-0 (23:03.112)
Mm. Mm.

speaker-1 (23:05.23)
Yeah, it was a lot of emotion. I was shocked. I had given up hope.

speaker-0 (23:11.758)
I was about to ask if you had like given up or resigned to like, okay, we may never get to catch this guy.

speaker-1 (23:17.784)
Absolutely. I was pretty certain of that, you know?

speaker-0 (23:21.314)
Mm-hmm. And then after you get the call, what happens then? Like what shifts or?

speaker-1 (23:28.696)
So I remember being on the phone and I just was feeling so many different things and I just choked out the words like, what is his name? I'm talking to the detectives, do I know him? And they said his name and I didn't know him and I fell to my knees screaming. Because the idea that it was a stranger and a stalker, he was much older, that I didn't know him at all was horrifying.

didn't recognize his face. They showed me a picture, had no idea. Now the craziest part of the story is, Gianna and I picked Newport Beach. Her sister lived there with her husband. I'd never been there before, but we decided we're just packing up and moving. Shit, we're going, know? Great place to be. out. I just, you know, I was so, I loved it there. But when he was apprehended actually in California, he was caught there in Newport Beach.

speaker-0 (24:20.296)
It's so fucking wild to me. Yeah, whatever. I'm like a block away from where you are.

speaker-1 (24:22.136)
Crazy.

I lived on 40th Street, so Newport Beach is like, have you been there?

speaker-0 (24:28.662)
Yes, yeah, I've driven through, or actually no, I've had a day or two there.

speaker-1 (24:31.702)
Yeah, it's like a tiny beach town. The streets are right next to each other. I was on 40th Street. He was arrested on 41st Street. That's wild. One block from where I lived. He was trying to break into a home where three young girls lived.

speaker-0 (24:44.952)
Wow. And is that where he lived? Like, wow.

speaker-1 (24:47.948)
He did? He lived just inland, but that's where he was from. he would take odd jobs. traveled for the, he would go watch the Olympics. He was a painter. He would do all these jobs. He was driving down to college campus, you know, in Arizona, committing these rapes and all over the country and I think the world and getting away with it. Now, the reason that he got caught was not because they caught him for my case. He was trying to break into that home and he got into a fight with the law enforcement officer that saw him.

California is one of just 19 states in the US that collects your DNA swab if you are arrested for a felony. He was arrested for resisting the officer's arrest. They took him to the booking station. They took his fingerprints, his photographs. They did a minimally invasive cheek swab. That's how they do it now. They uploaded it into our national DNA database and it matched mine and multiple others. Crazy.

speaker-0 (25:40.236)
Yeah, it gives me like a ripple of like truth, right? feel like, or just like sensation of chills like go through my body is like, to even think about that. And so, so I guess they're like, they call, the detective calls your mom, right? I know, but I'm trying to like take the listeners too on that.

speaker-1 (25:59.242)
Yes, yes, yes. And so, you know, they, I was very fortunate with these detectives. I mean, they kept that picture that I had of me and my girlfriends on their computers, but it wasn't even just for me, it was for their daughters. They were like, this, we have to solve this. And they never gave up. you know, I know not everyone has these experiences, but I like to share mine because I really was blessed with, I call them like my angels, the law enforcement officer, my forensic nurse, the detectives, the analysts of the DNA, the prosecutor. And I'm like, what a, I would,

as hard as what I went through was, I am so much more fortunate than so many victims because I had care along the way. People believed me and they treated me with dignity and respect. And I was on my way to closure, but they called my mom because my mom had never given up hope, I guess. I mean, I know. It me wanna cry. I know. And having family, know? It's like, it's really, it's so beautiful. And it's so beautiful, but it was definitely shocking.

speaker-0 (26:46.423)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (26:58.574)
started to spiral again and I was freaking pissed too because I'm like, God, after all this time, like, I nearly killed myself. I've picked myself up from the depths of hell and darkness and I'm finally starting to feel a spark again and then bam, you know, and I didn't know if I was strong enough, but I found out he had a shed behind his home of women's underwear, ID cards, trophies from all over the world and he was married with a son.

speaker-0 (27:25.986)
Wow. It's like, I gotta take a minute to digest some of that. Yeah, no, just cause it's like heavy and it's like, once you finally also like, know, you're in like a realm of what feels more like freedom and like getting your groove back. And then it's like, whoop-poosh! Not so fast!

speaker-1 (27:44.75)
Knock it back down. still here!

speaker-0 (27:46.764)
Yeah. Or like there's more to be done here in a way, like universally maybe nudging towards or God. But I do feel like those people were definitely like angelic. And I'm glad that you had those people there too to support you because I've heard horror stories about people not being believed or not wanting to like go through even that process. I'll just share a little tidbit. was whenever I went to like the police officers one time they

I was more like given like a sex speech or education thing or like shamed or angry in a way. And I was like, I'm only 13 here. Like, yeah. like, don't know. Yeah. So I love that. And there's like so many different like variants of like this, what happens to people. And I'm just like so honoring just like in all of like your courage to share.

speaker-1 (28:28.792)
Heartbreaking.

speaker-1 (28:40.61)
But you know, that first responding officer, I always go back to this because there was a woman and I remember being like, my gosh, she was the second one. And I remember thinking if she would have been the first one that came, I wouldn't have moved forward because she was like, what were you wearing? How much did you drink? What's your sexual history? You know, right off the bat. And I'm like, if you're doing this to me while I was asleep in my bed, covered in blood and bruises, what do you do to other women that are on a date? know, it's really...

it's really terrifying, you know? And I know, I don't think that a lot of law enforcement or people like that are trying in most cases to be like that. I just don't think that they know. And that's why having like, I hate the word trauma informed, but really it's like, you need to have that training. Like you need to have that training for these situations. And like what, you're 13? Like to have that treatment, like that's horrifying.

speaker-0 (29:30.286)
Yeah, I was like, I'm just not gonna do this for a while. Yeah.

speaker-1 (29:32.526)
I was like, no, you can't. But the bravery it took to even go and then to have that, you know, that's what's really, that upsets me. But that's why I feel like my story is so powerful because there are really good, there are really good people out there too, doing really good work.

speaker-0 (29:46.262)
Yeah. And I feel like it's like, is it an internalized judgment or stigma or like, even if you were wearing an out and about, what would that have mattered in the grand scheme of things? I don't think so. Right. I don't think it's like a call for rape or abuse or assault or anything.

speaker-1 (30:02.542)
Yeah, my friends at nurse now were friends ironically, but she she's like you could be walking down the street drunken But I snake it you still don't deserve

speaker-0 (30:15.106)
And maybe you live and learn as those situations evolve, right? Okay, so you get the call. I'm guessing there's an impending trial or something's gonna happen. How does it advance that state? I know in the book you wrote about maybe, maybe not going to the trial or going through that. And I completely get that too. And I wanna talk about like kind of what switched you to go.

speaker-1 (30:39.234)
Yeah, so it was five years before trial, which is-

speaker-0 (30:42.382)
I don't remember that little detail in the book.

speaker-1 (30:45.134)
Five years. And I'm really good at compartmentalizing to a scary degree. Again, people didn't know. So he's arrested. I'm not telling people. Like my brother didn't know and I'm very close, but he was so young. Like it was still this deep, dark secret. And you know, I had worked so hard. So I'm like, you know what? I'm going to, I ended up going through yoga teacher training. I opened a yoga studio, gave birth to my son and you know, all these things, but trial just like stuck with me, you know, like it was just,

there. And I knew, you know, eventually I was going to have to go back, but it was delayed. Partially we were waiting on a Supreme Court ruling because in 2013 there was a case called Maryland versus King and they found actually that taking DNA cheek swab for qualifying arrest is a reasonable part of the booking procedure. That's how my perpetrator was caught this law. Okay, because not every state has it. thankfully they were like this. It's like fingerprints and therefore reasonable under the Fourth Amendment. So we were able to go to trial.

A second reason why we're delayed is because this guy is a psychopath and he wanted to represent himself and he was just doing little things to consistently delay, you know, probably mind games with me too to see if I'd actually like show up and go to trial because although there were other cases after mine, my trial was going first because the strongest DNA evidence was found on mine. So I was supposed to do my trial and then go and testify in the other trials of the other women. So I remember

getting a call and like with my son, my husband at the time, had trouble getting pregnant. So I really didn't think that I could. I thought that I had like, is the cysts, whatever that's called. I don't think you can really have it. So we had an IUI. It's not like the same thing as in vitro, but it's like a, you know, so I was like, I can't get pregnant on my own. And we were so grateful to give birth to Charlie, my son. And I remember I was going to work and

speaker-0 (32:20.014)
All the answers are there.

speaker-1 (32:37.516)
Like my period was really delayed again. So I called my OBG and I'm like, I sister back. I should probably come in. And they're like, well, before you need to take a pregnancy test. And I was like, there's no way I'm pregnant. Like there's no way. And they're like, no, you have to. So literally I took a pregnancy test, dropped my son off and then went to work, teach yoga, didn't even look at it. I came back and it was positive. Now the crazy thing about this is during this exact same time,

speaker-0 (32:57.806)
wow.

speaker-1 (33:05.89)
I got a call from the prosecutor on the case and he's like, Ashley, we're going to trial. It's gonna be May of 2015. There's no more postponements. It's go time. And my heart just sunk. mean, I was freaking terrified. And I sat on the phone with him. I'm like, well, know, my son now he's, you know, barely six months. He can't be away from his mom. That's not natural. My business is finally out of debt and we're turning a profit. I went from teaching 13 classes to 12, you know.

and we're actually filling up the studio and my team needs me. I can't. Really, those were excuses because I was terrified. Now, not just for me, but for my family, my child. This guy would know my name. He told me he would kill me. What if he's found that guilty? I didn't recognize his face. Is the DNA evidence really that strong? How? All these things. He said, well, it's your decision, but if you don't go, the most that this guy can get would be 10 years. That will honestly make

that other trials not as effective. Because if I'm not going, then I'm not going to go testify in the other ones. So I hung up the phone and I really, I didn't know what I was going to do. But then I found out that I was pregnant. And with my son, we didn't find out, boy or girl. This one, was like, surprise is that I'm pregnant. I want to find out. And I just, got the letter from the doctor saying that I was having a little girl.

speaker-0 (34:33.73)
Thanks

speaker-1 (34:34.284)
I just said, know what, you are going back. Because you're going back for your daughter. You're going back for everyone's daughter. And so I called him back immediately. And I'm like, we're going. And so I went to trial, very pregnant with my daughter.

speaker-0 (34:46.414)
Yeah. Wow. This is such a beautiful part of the story. In a way, right?

speaker-1 (34:55.246)
Because it brings it out from us and like I think that's what's so beautiful about what you do and how you're so open and but you're doing it to give others the light, you know and to help them see their pathway and the hope. Yes. Yeah and to get out of the shame, but it took it from me to others like I'm going to trial because again, whoa, this isn't about me selfishly. This is about everybody else and everyone's daughter's I'm going.

speaker-0 (35:20.546)
Yeah, like the ripple effect that that's gonna have. And like, you even the relief that all those other women are gonna have too. Like, know, once that comes about that you testify and he's sentenced. Well, that's you got the...

speaker-1 (35:34.754)
137.5 years.

speaker-0 (35:36.354)
Was that, mean, like, what did that feel like whenever that sent, that sentencing came in?

speaker-1 (35:41.07)
So sentencing happened a year after the guilty verdict. So then I had given birth to Scarlett. I named her Scarlett after that. go with the wind? I know, yes. My mom would always be like, you know how they have this way of just, and I actually appreciate it now. like, don't have to talk about all your stuff all the time. They have this thing, just move on. Don't think about it today. Just get on with it. And I think there's a fine balance. I've decided that I've come to love, but she would always make, she'd be like, just watch, go with the wind and be like Scarlett. And I'm like, my daughter is so strong.

speaker-0 (35:44.814)
Wow, okay, I didn't realize it took that long.

speaker-1 (36:10.254)
She got me to trial her name Scarlett. She actually was born with like some red hair, but it fell out. And now it's like blonde, I'm like, oh my gosh. But then I go to sentencing and the prosecutor, the first thing he says to me was, you know, this man's family's here. And my heart broke because I wanted him to be a monster. I did not want to humanize him. I didn't want to attach any emotion to this, cause it's a weird thing.

speaker-0 (36:28.0)
yeah.

speaker-1 (36:39.746)
Like it's, relief to have justice, but it's also very sad. It's like a very sad story. someone, everything, you know? And he was like, and they want to know if they could talk to you. And I was terrified, but I said, sure. And I mean, I was hugging his sisters, nieces and nephews, and we just cried in each other's arms and said how sorry we were. And his own sister begged the judge to never let her brother see the light of day again. She said, they're certain he's murdered people. Wow. Certain.

She became a detective and she said he should never see the light of day again. And so 137.5 years and I just, saw, I sat in the back of the courtroom and there was a freedom, but it took some time. But then I realized like, I'm so fortunate to have this, but so many victims don't. And I can't keep the secret anymore. Like I can't keep this in anymore. Like I have to talk about it.

speaker-0 (37:30.38)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (37:34.986)
So I mean, that was 13 years later. It's been a long journey. And I went from not talking about it to not talking about it all the time.

speaker-0 (37:41.58)
In a phenomenal book, Silent Witness again, you gotta get it. I'll link it. I just felt like it was so clear and it just took me on the journey. I just really enjoyed listening to your voice too.

speaker-1 (37:55.438)
was fun. like to do it. There's a guy, he's a musician, who's awesome. And he helped me do it. He was amazing. it was nice because I wanted it to be my story.

speaker-0 (38:08.269)
Yeah. I like, especially with like memoirs or like personal stories, I just feel like I want to hear it and that voice. Yeah. But I guess, how long was it till, I guess that's 25, that was what 2015 or 16? Okay. Did you go to do any more of the like, testified other people's trials or?

speaker-1 (38:22.286)
2016 with sentencing.

speaker-1 (38:27.746)
He decided they didn't want to move forward because he was getting under 35 years. And I totally respect that. It's very hard to go back. So they didn't want to move forward with it. so he's now serving his sentence.

speaker-0 (38:42.936)
good. I feel like there's, you know, there's a consequence to our actions, good or bad. And so I feel like I'm glad that he had that action. And that's me saying it with loved ones inside person too. yeah, so it's like I can see different angles and perspectives. Yeah.

speaker-1 (38:51.597)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (39:01.806)
100%. It's a sadness too. And I think his story is extreme. I do some DNA trainings in the prisons and it just breaks, I just wonder what people have been through to end up. He was kind of the anomaly, but there's a lot of people in there that have gone through such hard shit. And didn't have any support. I had support to get through. What if you don't? Where do you go? Where do you turn?

speaker-0 (39:08.524)
Hmm.

speaker-0 (39:22.968)
Ciao.

speaker-1 (39:31.234)
That's always, it's like a nuanced feeling. I mean, yeah.

speaker-0 (39:34.968)
not knowing how to navigate like traumatic situations and so, and then a lot of times going down like drugs, alcohol or violence and all those things. At what point did you decide to like start like diving into like the DNA project? I'm curious, I wanna like talk about that more. Cause I also think it's a good point too, the DNA can exonerate people that were falsely accused.

speaker-1 (39:55.416)
You know, I started telling people one by one and I was, had a yoga studio in downtown Austin. A lot of the girls were in their young twenties. You know, I was early thirties and I just said, I need to tell them because literally I'm pregnant flying back and forth to Arizona for trial, not telling anybody, coming back and running my business, pretending like nothing's wrong, right? And so one by one, I started sharing with people and

There is a statistic that Reign says one out of six American women will be the victim of attempted or completed rape. I mean, do you think that's on par?

speaker-0 (40:29.344)
or maybe even more. Right. If that's what's reported, then what isn't reported.

speaker-1 (40:36.258)
Yes, so I talked to these girls and it was seven out of eight.

speaker-0 (40:42.542)
Seven out of eight.

speaker-1 (40:44.504)
Seven out of eight of the young women that I knew and I loved also in return shared a story of rape that had happened to them. One was in elementary school, like at school in the bathroom, you know, like things I'm like, how do we not know this? How can this be? And it just, it was horrifying to me. And I thought we have to start talking about this. It was before me too. And I don't really know about me too. I don't really think it did much. I mean, I think it was a way for people to like say this happened, but then what?

There was no after. I just feel like there's so much more in like we carry the shame. You've talked about this in your journey a lot too. The shame is not ours to carry, but also it's uncomfortable to have these conversations, but the only way we're going to stop it is if we do and also learning how to raise our son. To not do this shit. It makes me like my son, I'm like, don't, boundary. You said no, don't freaking touch her.

speaker-0 (41:33.166)
speaker-0 (41:40.48)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (41:43.918)
can't even go in our room without the permission. But it's like, there is something and I feel very blessed to live here. I know a lot of other countries don't have, haven't progressed as far as we have, but we still have a lot of work to do. I started testifying on the side. So I don't wanna bore listeners, but this law, only 19 states have now. Texas became the 19th. So we now collect for every single felony arrest and get this, it passed in 2023.

speaker-0 (42:07.118)
I'm so happy that Texas became the next-

speaker-1 (42:13.006)
And in one year, they closed 1,005 cold cases through this law.

speaker-0 (42:17.912)
Wow, okay, I remember the, I thought it was like a lower number. So it's like, yeah, so now today.

speaker-1 (42:22.673)
So we started out only collecting for a smaller number of felonies. so they were closing 240 cases from like, you know, the seven deadly sins essentially in burglary. And so they were swabbing on those arrests. So everyone does for felony conviction. Most people that are committing felonies, they're actually, they don't get convicted of felonies. So we're missing so many people under the radar. And I met this woman, J.N. Sepich, and her daughter was Katie Sepich. And she was a grad student in New Mexico in 2003, just two weeks after my...

rape, totally unrelated. didn't know her at the time, but she was coming home from a party and she was kidnapped rape. it's a horrible story. Her body was lit on fire and she was dumped in a field. They didn't know who did it. And the only DNA evidence was under her fingernails because she fought like so hard for her life. her mom at the time, because New Mexico didn't have the law, and she told the detective, well, this guy's going to

hurt somebody else and then he's gonna be arrested for that felony and then when he does they will just swab his cheek and we'll get the match to Katie's killer. And he was like, I'm so sorry, know, Ms. Savage, but that's illegal because we can only collect DNA if it's for a conviction. then, so she dedicated, it's called Katie's Law in New Mexico. I met her fast forward, she retired and wanted me of all people to take the sauce. And I was like, oh my God, this big shoes to fill, you know, but it's really.

It's really hard work. And so I travel state to state now for states that don't have this to advocate for this. There's also rapid DNA. So in 90 minutes, you can check DNA in the database. Right now it's taking like months, weeks, sometimes years on backlogs at the labs. Like it's a law enforcement tool that in real time. So we're starting to use that in Texas too. So hopefully we can just start closing out these cases, not just for me, but as you mentioned, exonerations. You know, I think about that guy that

speaker-0 (44:11.407)
speaker-1 (44:15.598)
in my case. And I'm like, had we gone to trial and just that hearsay, how scary is that? The DNA evidence saved that and brought that truth. Now I have a board member, James Tillman, he spent 18 and a half years in prison.

speaker-0 (44:27.808)
Wow, I was just about to say, I've seen so many different stories and you know, whether it was this or a different crime about how wrongly convicted man gets out 18, 20, 30 years down the road. like, your life, it's like how you can't give back that life.

speaker-1 (44:40.846)
You can't. And it was off a photo ID of a rape and kidnap. And his voice got lost in the system. No one was taking care of him. A guy was in jail with him and they knew that he was innocent. So he went into the Connecticut Innocence Project when he got out of jail. And he was like, please take out Mr. Tillman's case. He's innocent. DNA technology had advanced. They finally tested it, not a match. So, okay, he's out, but 18 and a half years of his life. And had they used like,

speaker-0 (45:03.32)
Wow.

speaker-1 (45:10.062)
Technology's advanced everywhere. You have Rapid, he would have spent maybe 24 hours. Wow. In prison, 24 hours.

speaker-0 (45:19.234)
love that, that what you're working on and going towards like what is like, what is I guess the goal is like 50 of 50. So you have to go state by state. I'm can we not just enact something federal?

speaker-1 (45:29.55)
They've done it federally since 2000. For a federal felony crime, then you're gonna have your DNA swabbed, but every state has to go different. it's been really grueling. thought it would, I just thought, you oh, it's gonna be, have this story and this purpose and this divine God mission now, and I'm just gonna go change all these laws. Yeah, no.

speaker-0 (45:31.8)
Okay, within the state's...

speaker-0 (45:50.734)
I see it.

speaker-1 (45:53.006)
You know, it's like, God, it's really hard. It's really hard. And then you get the wins and it's beautiful. But the last two weeks, I had bills on mile 25 of 26.2, literally on the marathon, right? I've been working on for two years, Kentucky, Georgia, Tennessee. They all died with two hours left of session, all of them. So it's just like, I have to start all over. But I guess it's not. I know things take time, but it's just, it can be defeating.

speaker-0 (46:18.03)
Yeah, for sure. I was gonna try to find that verse that you shared yesterday on your story, because I feel like it resonated with me. Yeah, and I loved it. I'm like, I know I wrote it down somewhere. I'm like, where is it? Okay, nope, that's the Wayne Dyer one. I took a lot of notes. Let's see, maybe if I just search Galatians in my notes real quick. Hang on, guys.

speaker-1 (46:40.846)
my phone off because I didn't want to interrupt.

speaker-0 (46:43.534)
There we go, I got it. You got it. Okay. It says, us not become weary and doing good for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galatians 6, 9. I'm like, how many times have you wanted to be like, ah, throw it against the wall? Yeah. I know for me, like even sometimes with this podcast, I'm like, do I keep going? I see my vision and I, and like the heart behind it. And then I read that and I'm like, yeah, I keep going.

speaker-1 (47:08.448)
Yes, we have to. you know, I'm glad that that helped you too, because it resonated with me. And you know, we're still working in other states. And when I've had such great loss, and I know, you you have to in your own ways. But like, then when you get those six, like those wins, like I took my kids to the Senate chamber in Texas, and they got to see when the bill passed. wow. They know mom was, you know, hurt by somebody and she goes to help.

protect people and keep them safe. And they were so proud. And then hearing the numbers of 1,005 cases, you know, that keeps me going. But I do feel freaking defeated. losing those states back to back to back. And I'm like, is the deal here? Like what is this darkness? Because we're talking about taking DNA in some states if you're arrested for freaking murder or rape of a child. I think most constituents, people that live in these states would say that's absolutely something that you should be doing.

speaker-0 (47:51.662)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (47:59.0)
That's viable.

speaker-1 (48:00.526)
Well, I would say. And I'm like, what's the deal? But it's like, I have to have patience and I have to have faith.

speaker-0 (48:08.146)
know, I want to, patience, that's a life lesson I've signed up to learn. I'm slowly trudging along. I do want to touch on your rediscovery or re-strengthening of your faith too before, yeah, okay, we got time. Okay, I just had to like, check the time real quick. Yeah, because I know in the book you mentioned like, how could a God like allow this to happen? Or like, and so kind of distancing yourself. And I kind of felt that at some point in my life too. And then like this whole rediscovery and like shifting and creating my own relationship has been like, So I want to talk about like how you,

strengthen your faith or like what, you you said something in the book is like, what's, what was lost can be found or something along those lines. I just love that. so I want to.

speaker-1 (48:45.974)
Yes, you know, I would like see these parents on the news whose children were murdered and I would see them at trial literally forgiving the murder of their child. And I remember always being like, how? Not only did I wonder how, but I didn't want to forgive. And I didn't, I did. You know, I was raised very Catholic. We were going to church all the time, but I lost faith because I was in the dark too, you know? And I didn't realize that

You know, I'm like, why would God allow this? But what I've realized more is I have this renewed, this very deep, my faith is the only thing that gets me through. And I always feel like I'm very connected to that. And I have to be alone a lot for my job, but I'm always like, I'm not alone. there is a God higher power that is constantly with me. And I feel that now in my soul and I believe it. And it's been a very beautiful transition. But I think part of it was me finding my own forgiveness too, with this guy.

I realized the more that I held on and the more that I was holding onto it, I'm the only one that's suffering. I was on a podcast when he said it was like holding onto a hot stone, the only one that gets burned is you. It was after trial ended, but I did. I found my freedom and forgiveness. I never thought I would and it came shockingly, but I felt so light. I felt so light and that helped open me up.

to God and now I have trust and we don't always know, we can't control outcomes and then there is free will. Because it's like, well, how do bad things like that happen? Because we have free will. God's always with us.

speaker-0 (50:22.912)
Mm-hmm. You know that? I believe that. And one of my favorite things, and this is even in the heart of some of my super stints, I didn't realize that it was like associated with the Bible verse, but now that I got it from my mom, it tracks, you know? But it was like the, you know, all things work out for good verse about like, it's like Romans 828 or something. And so like, I'm like, okay. And I feel like when we do step out of victim mindset, find forgiveness, we can like take on that role.

and kind of become like a co-creator of our life and assign the meaning that we want it to have. We could assign the meaning of like, my life is never gonna be the same. It's gonna be awful. It's like, my life is never gonna be the same and I'm gonna open up a pathway for myself or others to give back. And so I just think that that's a powerful choice to make. And like the faith, I wanted to find the Wayne Dyer quote too. Because one of you said that no one is with you. I love Wayne Dyer, just found, rediscovered another book of his. Which one? Inspiration, yeah. I've read The Power of Intention and I-

speaker-1 (51:18.574)
love it.

speaker-0 (51:19.502)
And just a lot of his different, I think I've read another one, but I went to Guatemala recently and I was like, I really wanted to be inspired and it felt like a full circle moment too. And I was just like looking on the show, I was like, oh, inspiration, Wayne Dyer. I was just kind of like out and about and like open it up to something. I'm like, that tracks. That's what you needed. Oh wait, there it was. No, okay. Yeah, it said in your book, I love this, if you knew who walked beside you at all times on the path that you have chosen, you could never experience fear or doubt again.

speaker-1 (51:46.83)
I love it. I know it makes me emotional. It's so true. Yeah, it's so true. And it's having that faith that things, not in our timing too, like some of these things, I'm wanting and like, you're saying with your, like, I want these bills to cross now. Like this has been such hard work, but it's not in our timing. it's like that moment where you want to get up, but that's where like it pushes you so hard. Like that's where I feel like I am right now. And it's like, have to, I am not quitting. Like I am pushing through and I will start to see the benefits, but it's not.

speaker-0 (52:19.309)
Yeah, and

speaker-0 (52:24.3)
Yeah. And I'm like, is that me trying to control it? Yeah. It's like, if I can internally sense sea vision things, but then, yeah, it's not on my watch.

speaker-1 (52:34.156)
Yes, and having faith and also trying to enjoy the, I'm like, you know, also there's some part of, like we have to be living too. Like enjoying the process. We're always trying to get to get these. I'm like, you know what my happiness can't be decided on is this freaking Senator that might be kind of creepy and this other state that blocks his bill passes or not. Like I'm trying to convince this guy that does not want to budge on it for whatever reason it is. know, so that I can't, my happiness cannot be wrapped into that. My job is to light a spark.

to go and do my best and educate and be powerful in that way, but I can't control the outcome. And that's been really hard for me, because I want, you know, I'm very, I've like just forest scum to marathon before, you know, it's like, do, I get my mind. I did, it was sucked.

speaker-0 (53:10.862)
It's true.

speaker-1 (53:25.39)
doing it every good, but no, I crossed it off the list. Wow. Yeah, it was terrible, but I did it. But that's the thing, I want to see things through. Yeah. You know, it's like you start a project, you just want it.

speaker-0 (53:37.336)
like tenacious, like that persistence and.

speaker-1 (53:39.584)
But it's like we have to stay with it. are growing. There's stuff happening to us and we're evolving.

speaker-0 (53:46.562)
That's true too, like to assign your happiness onto an outcome that is out of your control whenever you can control certain things right where your boots are and like choose what you're putting your focus on, whether it's like the light or something to be grateful for or like something, right? Absolutely. So I'd really like that you kind of touched on that too. Anything else that you want to share or go down any pathways we've got about five minutes.

speaker-1 (54:11.598)
Well, I think I am so grateful to your voice and how just authentic you are. It's really refreshing. And I think it's really, it's empowering for younger girls. Like I really want them, you know, I think about this a lot too, because I don't know if you felt this way, but I didn't have anyone that kind of went through the shit that I went through to look up to, because no one talked about any of this stuff. And I didn't realize like how much I was, I just was not taking care of myself.

mind, spirit, you know, and I didn't care. And I feel like seeing people like you that can come out of the darkness and be truthful about it and still have a spark and light, like life is to be enjoyed and we're going to have hard things, but like you can heal and it's gonna be really hard. Yeah. You know, but you can. And it's also very beautiful, but there were years, there were years where I sat in darkness, in just darkness and I didn't, it was never ending. And if I felt like it got darker and darker and I did not know if I was ever going to have joy.

ever again, like true joy. And it wasn't just right after things happened. It's like, then I got divorced and I went through so much shit. Cause I realized I got married young and like, I hadn't processed anything. I hadn't told anybody. I didn't start talking about it till that late, you know? just knowing that like, there are role models that are messy, but like, be real. And like, you can have a really beautiful life, but it's hard. It's hard.

speaker-0 (55:33.33)
And thank you. I'll receive that. you should. I remember, I'm like, yeah, if somebody looked at me today, they might not see the shit, the mess, the darkness that I stayed in for years. like, yeah. Until it's finally like the joy reset button was hit. And I was like, okay, one foot at a time and focus awareness. And I feel grateful that I was instilled with certain...

mindsets, beliefs, things to look for at a young age too. And like, if I can help impart that on anybody, fantastic. If they don't listen, fantastic.

speaker-1 (56:08.97)
And yes, exactly, exactly. But that's what I felt too. It's like, whoever needs to hear this message, that's what I prayed when my book went out. Because I'm like, I don't know who's going to read it. But if the five people that read it are meant to have that, that's what I just wanted it to be in their hands.

speaker-0 (56:24.622)
What point did you decide to write the book?

speaker-1 (56:27.79)
It was a few years in the making, but it's nerve wracking, you know, like, what years? Like, how long do you...

speaker-0 (56:32.526)
Like, I mean, I say sometimes I'm like, if I look about when I wrote the first chapter is probably like, at this point, I used to say 10 years ago in 2022. So it's like 2011, 2012. But then once I got serious in like 2019, I wrote it in like 18 months.

speaker-1 (56:46.68)
kind of what happened to me too. And then all of sudden the spark and I'm like, okay, this is...

speaker-0 (56:50.478)
Yeah, I feel like I had to go on that trajectory and learning. Yeah. Like what I set out to write, it wasn't what I like ended up writing and what I would, I wouldn't write it like that today in some ways. Yes. It's an interesting time capsule too. But yeah, I think it's powerful. But I did feel like, like, I felt like my skin was crawling off at certain points. I was like, okay, I felt excited. Like I wanted to vomit. But I'm like, okay, I'm holding onto the vision that this is going to help other people too. Not realizing that it was also like one of the deepest acts of self-love I feel like that we can do. Like listening to those longings and those creative urges and like,

following through with them.

speaker-1 (57:21.674)
Absolutely, absolutely. feel like it's just, it's been a release and as the more you share your story, the lighter it becomes, know, really it's true. It really is, but yeah, it's been, it's been a journey. Yeah.

speaker-0 (57:34.556)
Well, thank you so much for coming on. I'm like, I wanna hang out.

speaker-1 (57:39.47)
I was like been praying that good like cool people come into my life. There we go

speaker-0 (57:44.974)
Thank you so much.

speaker-1 (57:46.734)
Thank you so much for having me.