Ecstasy for Couples: Can MDMA Transform Trauma, Sex, & Intimacy? | Jonathan Robinson

What happens when fear gets turned down and couples finally say the things they've been afraid to say?

Jonathan Robinson, former psychotherapist, bestselling author, and longtime pioneer in MDMA-assisted work, joins to explore the intersection of MDMA, trauma, couples therapy, sex, intimacy, and emotional healing.

Jonathan shares how his work with MDMA began in the 1980s, why he believes it can help couples move through long-standing resentment and communication breakdowns, and what happens when people suddenly feel safe enough to talk openly about sex, money, infidelity, trauma, and unmet desires.

We get into sexless marriages, mismatched libidos, attachment patterns, empathy versus “fixing,” why couples get caught in what Jonathan calls the “misery go-round,” how some relationships reconnect...while others realize it may be time to lovingly separate.

Chapters:
00:00 — From Therapy to MDMA
03:33 — What MDMA Does to Fear
06:51 — The Relationship Misery Go-Round
10:35 — MDMA & Sexual Trauma
17:14 — When Talk Therapy Isn't Enough
19:06 — The Best Night of Their Marriage
21:35 — When Couples Choose to Separate
26:46 — Sex, Lies & Radical Honesty
29:34 — The Communication Tool Couples Need
32:47 — Talking About What You Want in Bed
38:01 — Empathy, Intimacy, & Sexless Marriage
40:24 — The Future of MDMA Therapy

Connect with Jonathan:
mdmatraining.net (coupon code: OFF200)
xtcforcouples.net

Jonathan's Books:
Ecstasy as Medicine: How MDMA therapy Can Help You Overcome Trauma, Anxiety, and Depression...and Feel More Love

Ecstasy For Couples: How MDMA Therapy Can Create More Love and Less Conflict In Your Relationship 

Transcript

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Kristin 0:00

Welcome back to another episode of Sex Drugs in Soul. Today I have on Jonathan Robinson, and we are going to talk about ecstasy and MDMA MDA, which I've dabbled a little bit with, but you've dabbled with it in a little bit different way than I probably have in a professional setting, I'm guessing. And yeah, so welcome. I would love to explore like how you even started in this space.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

It started when I did my master's thesis on the effects of MDMA, or better known as ecstasy, on trauma back in 1984 when it was legal.

Kristin 0:34

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

And back then a lot of people were using it to enhance their relationship. And I used it that way as well. And then it was illegal, so nobody could do work with it. So I kind of went underground. And in the 90s, I was on Oprah a bunch for various books I did. And found that I was doing a lot of couples counseling, which is a long, slow slog. And therefore, I started to use MDMA work with my couples and found that I could do two years of therapy in one day, and it was a lot more fun for everybody. So that's a little bit of my history.

Kristin 1:13

I could definitely see how it'd be more fun. I'm curious, did you have any hesitations about going underground? Or did you see something like, okay, I know that there's value in this and I'm willing to risk whatever is happens going underground?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Or yeah, I knew there was a little bit of risk, but I was pretty careful. And nowadays I don't think there's any risk. But also nowadays, what I do is I do most of my therapy over Zoom, which is a lot more convenient for everybody, and it works great. There's even a higher level of safety. Couples might feel a little weird coming to my office talking about their sex or love life, but on Zoom, on MDMA, everybody is like talking about the weather. It really works quite well, and I don't have to charge as much. And last year I had couples from 20 countries, including China, which you can't do if no nobody's gonna fly in just for one session. It's worked out really well, and there's no legal risk that way as well.

Kristin 2:11

Cool. Yeah, and then I guess like whenever they're ready to really rekindle, they can be like, all right, bye. See you, close the laptop.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

That happens. Sometimes we do a five-hour session, and maybe halfway during the session, this couple that may have not had sex for five years, they go, Hey, is it okay if we take an hour by ourselves? And yeah, just turn off your Zoom and I'll see you in an hour. And then usually when they come back, they're both smiling.

Kristin 2:35

Yeah, I love that. Now, is this more of like a microdose type of thing, or is it leaning towards a more macro, or how does this even get started? I'm curious.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

The my protocol is couples are interested in seeing me or individuals. They do a one-hour Zoom with me and we talk about their issues and what success looks like. And if they then want to make sure, do move forward with the session, we plan a five-hour session together, usually on Zoom, and we go deep into what are the problems, what are ways to solve those problems. Trying to solve problems with people who don't like each other or are resentful is almost impossible. Whereas on ecstasy, solving those issues usually takes about half an hour.

Kristin 3:23

Yeah, that's interesting. I'm curious how like how it drops that wall or something or allows it the expression to be more expressed.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

One of the things ecstasy does is it reduces blood flow to the amygdala, which is the part of our brain that feels fear. So then it also increases all these feel-good chemicals. So you're now feeling close and in love, you have no fear, so you can talk very openly about the things that normally would be very hard to talk about, like trauma and sex and money and parenting, all those triggering issues become very easy to talk about and quite easy to work out through and you know, work out through. A lot of times, couples will come with 10 issues that they've had for 20 years, and we solve all of them during the five-hour session.

Kristin 4:16

That's beautiful. I know a lot of people have come to me, or a lot of men reach out and say, Oh, I'm in this sexless marriage, like how do I help rekindle? And I'm like, No, it's like I can refer to you or offer it as a suggestion, right? And it has is it is something that you do recommend, like doing guided at least at first, or I have this book, Ecstasy for Couples, that came out and it's doing really well.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

And most of the book is talked about how to make use of a guide, but I do have a chapter on how to do it on your own. A lot of couples have done it on their own. The only the disadvantage to that is that it's very hard to go deep into your issues when you do it on your own because you feel so good. Hey, let's just cuddle and tell each other we love each other. Whereas a guide, especially in the type of stuff I do, we're really working through their issues so that at the end of the session, they're in a different place than when they started. And then about a week later, I do what I call an integration session where we look at what they learned and how to keep it going, how to keep communication open. A lot of couples, after a while, they have what I call a misery go-round, which is where one person triggers their partner, and the response of their partner is to trigger their cart partner back, and they just get in this downward spiral. And most couples find their way to that after a while.

Kristin 5:47

Oh yeah, I could see how a resentment would build, and then like maybe they don't want to be or the egos get in the way, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Yeah. Take an issue like sex. A lot of partners, men might have a hard time with being sexually rejected or having a somewhat or completely sexless marriage. And if they pressure their partner, that triggers them, which makes them especially not want to be touched or have sex back, which triggers the male again, which triggers the female, it goes back and forth like that. And it's important to know how to dig out of a hole like that. And most couples can't do that on their own. They need the help of something like MDMA and a guided session in order to do that.

Kristin 6:31

Yeah, I could see where you'd keep them on track too. Okay, and or I could it's easy to get lost in those feel goods and dissolve into a cuddle puddle. And I can also see where it'd be like it could be a peak experience, but I love that you offer the integration session to okay, how do we implement this into our life and into our relationship? That's cool. Yeah. Is there I'm curious, like, are there any common problems or themes or any stories that would highlight specifically from a certain couple that you've worked with? I love I feel like those resonate with people. Yeah. You know, like, oh my God, I've gone through the same thing and wow, maybe this is a solution.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, there's three or four things that show up time and time again. One is the the common problems couples have are sex, money, and parenting. So I now know how to deal with those issues really well because I have a lot of experience. But a common thing might be the woman likes to be really close and connected because of her attachment style. The man likes to feel a lot of freedom. So as the woman approaches a man, he feels that his intimacy threshold is violated or is too much. So he pulls away. And as he pulls away, the woman becomes more desperate for connection. As she becomes more desperate, she tries to spend more time with him, which makes him want to pull away. That's an example of a misery go-round. But the same thing happens with sex and other things, where you have to learn how to handle those issues in a way that's fair to both partners and stay away from blame, which is the common things that couples do is they shame each other, they blame each other, they complain to each other, they explain to each other. None of those things ever work. I've never had a uh a partner blame their partner, and the partner's response was, Oh yeah, now I see what you're talking about. Now I'm gonna have to change. That never happens.

Kristin 8:35

Yeah, maybe compliment them on the good behavior, show that appreciation in a different way.

SPEAKER_01 8:42

Yeah, so trying to get out of those unfortunate communication patterns is really key. Now I do record my session, so people get to hear what it's like to communicate in a loving, problem-solving way versus the way that most people communicate through blame and shaming and all that stuff, which really never works.

Kristin 9:05

Yeah. I'm curious, I was just looking over some of my questions too. I I love that you brought in the attachment styles too. For the people that are hesitant about Molly or MDMA, XSC, and they think, okay, isn't that just a rave drug? Like, how do you shift that paradigm from the kind of era where a friend of mine used to tell me, she's like, oh yeah, it was used to be just available on the counter at the Start Club in Dallas.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

Now that that's been studied a lot, millions of dollars have been poured into it, and it's been shown in numerous studies to be incredibly effective for PTSD or trauma work. And before it got into the rave scene or even the trauma scene, it was mostly used as a couples therapy drug with great effect. And now there's a bunch of studies being done on its effectiveness. But these studies take millions of dollars in many years. It's slow going, but anybody who's done it with a partner knows, wow, that felt really good. But to turn it into something that is very useful therapeutically, it does help to have a guide that has experience in that area. And when people do it with me, uh and they may have done it in a rave scene or even on their own, they say, wow, that's really different doing it with a guide because you get a lot done. As I said, it's about equivalent to two years of therapy in one afternoon. A lot more fun.

Kristin 10:34

Yeah, that's pretty incredible. You can escalate or accelerate the healing process. Is there and I saw in the email something about how it can heal sexual trauma. And I would love to tap into that a little bit too.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yeah, and as you probably know, Kristen, 40%, this is a horrible statistic, but 40% of women in America have either been raped or attempted rape. So there's a lot of trauma going on. And one of the reasons I switched to Zoom is because a lot of the effects of therapy happen due to having a strong sense of complete safety. Now, having a woman who had been raped come to my office and take a drug, that doesn't feel that safe a lot of the time. So I get a lot of clients who have had sexual abuse of different kinds, and MDMA is really unsurpassed in healing trauma like that in even a single session. One example which is pretty amazing is I had a 92-year-old client who is a former Miss America.

Kristin 11:45

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Who had been raped by her father pretty much every day for 10 years. She had not slept through the night once since age 10.

Kristin 11:55

Oh shit.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

And after our session, she told me it was the first night in 80 years she had slept through the night. Wow. So it's very effective in overcoming trauma. Not everybody gets that dramatic results, but it's really quite helpful. And then I usually give people methods that are simple to help them deal with any sexual anxiety that shows up or any other issues that show up around trauma.

Kristin 12:25

I'd love to. If you care to share one or two of those, I would love to offer that to people too.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

There's so there's a couple things I can share. One is how do you deal with fear and anxiety that shows up in your life? Now, a lot of people, what they do.

Kristin 12:40

Please tell me.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

I'm a method junkie, so I have over a hundred methods.

Kristin 12:45

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:45

And my job is to get the right method to the right person. But let me give a a couple that give you an example. A lot of people, when they have sexual or any kind of fear, they loop about it in their mind a lot, their thoughts. And you have to create some distance between you and those looping thoughts in your head. Now, one way of doing that, which is very simple. I say it jokingly, but it can actually work, is to say a certain mantra three times. And the mantra is, and what you're trying to do is create some distance between you and those looping thoughts. And the mantra is to say, blah, blah, blah.

Kristin 13:26

Well, that's the first time I've heard that mantra.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah. That's basically saying to your looping thoughts, I know your story. I've heard it a thousand times, it's no longer interesting. And when you stop feeding that story, it can really help. Now that's a very simple method.

Kristin 13:42

I agree.

unknown 13:42

Yeah.

Kristin 13:43

Yeah. I'm like, yeah, like, how do we shift the stories we tell ourselves? I was literally talking talking to myself, journaling, talking to God today. And I was like, okay, God, show me who I am without money anxiety or fear, financial fears. And it's like, I even with a healthy nest egg and all the things, I'm like, at what point does it go away? I'm gonna try blah, blah, blah. I'm like, wow, show me who I am.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

To realize, to realize that it really isn't a matter of how much money you have, because those thoughts are there. It's like a looping thought form that you need some way to separate from those thoughts. Another way is to change the voice in your head to sound like Mickey Mouse. If in your mind you said, oh my god, am I gonna have enough money to buy this? It your reaction right off is to laugh rather than to, oh my god, that's a real fear.

Kristin 14:34

Yeah. I wow. Wow. I'm like, I feel like that's baked in there from parental wounds, too. I'm like, why you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah, it is. It is baked in from long past. So what can you do now to distance yourself from that wound, make fun of it through blah blah blah, or make it into a Mickey Mouse tone of voice? Those are very simple methods, and then more complex methods. A lot of women, especially who have had sexual abuse, will have flashbacks of it, which is very unfortunate and very triggering. So there's methods to make fun of those flashbacks, like and they work much better on MDMA, because I don't want to make light of the horror of those situations, but on MDMA where you're no longer feeling fear, you can go over that event and you can make fun of it, put Mickey Mouse glasses or Mickey Mouse ears on the assailant, have them slip on a banana peel and go into a pile of shit. Or whatever, that kind of ruins the memory of the flashback so that if I tell you don't think of a pink elephant, the first thing your mind does is think of a pink elephant. And it's the same with making a something ridiculous, that it makes it so you can't play that memory again in the same way. And that can be very helpful, especially on MDMA.

Kristin 16:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah.

Kristin 16:09

I know, yeah, I'm I'm definitely I fall into that 40%. And so I or sexual trauma, not necessarily rape per se, but it yeah. And I feel like there's a lot of men too that are in the the percentage as well that have a lot of shame about owning or admitting it too, even if I so I feel like if there's a one in ten survey, I feel like there's more than that, or I've been told that because I've come across it more frequently than I would think.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

Yeah, I've been surprised at the number of men who come to me with child sexual abuse from a parent or a cousin or something like that.

Kristin 16:45

Yeah. And so that's interesting that they can go and revisit and shift, shift that, I don't know, I guess, with uh a little bit of humor. Right?

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, a little bit of humor will heal a lot of heaviness.

Kristin 17:00

Yeah, oh my God. Yes. I feel like laughter is such medicine. Laugh more. It's one of the reasons why I like to go to the comedy mothership. Yeah. Okay. Anything else that we want to offer in that space or category?

SPEAKER_01 17:14

In terms of trauma, a lot of people they have they've tried talk therapy. I was a psychotherapist for 30 years. I finally gave up my license because I didn't find normal talk therapy to be very useful. And it's good to know that there are better methods that really can handle something very quickly that might take years to talk out or never work. Unfortunately, the incentive for most therapists is financially is to keep your clients coming back to you over and over again. I I've sold millions of books, so I'm not trying to make money through therapy. I it's something I just enjoy doing and I can help people. So if people feel stuck in that endeavor, I would say explore some new avenues.

Kristin 18:04

Yeah, I was just telling a friend the other day, I was like, he's been okay. How long have you been going to this therapist? Eight years. Okay. Have you seen any headway? I'm like, I did ketamine therapy, it was freaking awesome. It was a complete reset. I was able to see things and then have the therapist or guided sessions or integration sessions afterwards. So it's cool. I didn't realize that it was offered with the as like the similar structure with MDMA as it is to ketamine, but it was like so illuminating and healing.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, occasionally I worked with ketamine too, but I have found in general, MDMA is much more conducive for results than ketamine. But everybody's different, so you gotta find the thing that works for you.

Kristin 18:47

Yeah. Is it do you think it's because or you've seen that because people are more aware or awake during an MDMA session? Whereas I'd be like, ketamine, you go into an interesting to me. I thought it was like an oracle session because of what would pop up. I'd be like, but it felt like a different universe or realm. It's a very day-to-day space.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Yeah, it's a very different experience. We think the story you may have read in my book, which is funny, is my parents asked me, Why are you dealing with this this drug for so many years? And I said, Well it's really amazing stuff. You should try it sometime. And to my surprise, they said, Okay, we'll try it. Oh, I love that. I took I gave them the pills, I told them how to set up a good set and setting. And then a year later I asked them if they'd ever taken it. And they said that they had. And I asked them, what happened? And they said it didn't seem to work. And I was surprised. They said we waited 20 minutes and nothing happened. Ends up it takes about 45 minutes for the drug to take effect. So I said, What happened after 20 minutes? And they said we had nothing planned that evening. So we sat on the couch and then their eyes lit up and they said, It ends up we had the best talk of our entire marriage. We talked about how much we loved each other and how grateful we were, and we had had some arguments that had been going on the last couple months that we couldn't get out of, and we solved those situations right then and there, and then we cuddled on the couch. It ended up being the best night of our entire marriage. The only disappointment was that the drug never took effect. And of course, I'm laughing because that's the exact effect of the drug, is that it makes you more clear-headed, more aware, more open than you've ever been. So it's not like the other psychedelics that way, where you're drugged in some way that makes it less communicative.

Kristin 20:46

Is there anything that you found that helps with any of the post-session or post kind of or recovering or recouping or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

When I work with clients, uh I make sure that they have a way to get really pure medicine. And also there are certain supplements. There's really four or five I describe in my books, Ecstasy is medicine, ecstasy for couples, that really help with the side effects. A lot of people get a tight jaw or they might feel tired the next day. And there's some supplements like alpha lipoic acid and L-carnitine, 5 HTP, magnesium glycinate. There's a couple more that actually get sent to them when I work with people so that they can take it during the session and not have those side effects.

Kristin 21:35

Yeah, cool. I was curious too if there's been a session that it illuminated that they wanted to separate or they wanted to leave. And I'm like, how do you navigate that if something comes up and it reveals that they somebody doesn't want to continue?

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, that's a great question. I would say when working with the couples, and most of the couples are coming to me in a really challenging situation, I would. Actually, talking to Rick Doblin of the MAPS organization two days ago about that because he asked the same question. Oh, cool. And he and I said that maybe 15% of P of those couples decide that they really shouldn't be together and they should separate. But the difference is that they do it with either love or no blaming, which is so much easier than trying to have an adversarial relationship when you're already going through something tough. So I feel really good about those results, especially when people can say, hey, where we're at, we just have different wants now, different desires. And let's just go out on our own and do it with uh love as best we can. A lot of times there's kids involved. They have to work out stuff. But once again, it's a lot easier to work out those issues with somebody who you trust and care than versus somebody who you're screaming at. Oh, for sure.

Kristin 22:55

Yeah, so much more things are better done with love versus resentment or fear or those things, or even just staying in a relationship beyond its expiration date. To me, it's like, what are you modeling to the kids? And like they're probably picking up on something. And yeah, I was just curious about that. So that's interesting. Yeah, I'm curious I haven't looked into much about the trajectory of legalization, or I know you mentioned match or that sort of thing. Do you have any insight into where you see it in the next couple of years or five years?

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah. Having just talked to Rick Doblin, I have the latest information.

unknown 23:28

Yeah.

Kristin 23:29

I was like, you might have the insight.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

That's as you may know, the FDA in 2024 was trying to decide if they were going to reschedule it as a uh prescribable medicine, and they decided not to. And there were various reasons, mostly having to do with the FDA has no way of evaluating something that involves a drug and therapy. It's called the Food and Drug Administration. It's not called the Food, Drug, and a Therapy Administration. So they basically said, you've done these studies that are showing incredible effects, but we have no way of evaluating it because there's therapy involved. That was a large part of it. They had a couple other issues that were smaller, but so it's still illegal, although I do this therapy all the time. Nobody bothers me. In fact, a lot of my clients are cops because they've been traumatized. Yeah.

Kristin 24:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:27

And veterans and assortment of people. But Rick said that in the next couple of months, the FDA is likely to come up with an announcement, how it's being studied in new areas and making it easier to do those studies, meaning that people will have access to it in these large studies, especially with veterans and such like that. And he said that's going to add to its credibility. But even if it becomes legal in a medically prescribed way, it's going to be very expensive. So he thinks, and I think that the underground movement is really where most people are going to get their MDMA assistance and therapy.

Kristin 25:09

Yeah, that's interesting. I didn't even think about that, like what the price point may be.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Very expensive. Like upwards to $15,000.

Kristin 25:18

What?

SPEAKER_01 25:18

Yeah. Yeah. Because their approach involved two therapists, three sessions. My approach involves one therapist, one session, and an integration session later, or more than one integration session later. So I charge less than one-tenth of what they would be charged.

Kristin 25:35

Yeah. That's wow, I didn't even think about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Yeah.

Kristin 25:52

Yeah. Especially when it has such benefits.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

I'll tell you what I do, Kristen, because that is a problem. 40% of the MDMA out there is laced with other stuff. Usually not fentanyl, but it can still be like bath salts or other things that don't lead to a good trip or methamphetamine, things like that. When people work with me, I give them the name of somebody on the app Signal. Are you familiar with that app? It's encrypted. So it's out of the hands of law enforcement. And they they order what I know to be pure MDMA from somebody on that website. And that way I know that they're getting the pure stuff.

Kristin 26:30

That's good. I have someone on Telegram. Yeah. But always open to someone else too. Or like to have that resource. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious too. Let's see. I want to see what other questions that I had or if there's anything that you throw in or explore. Let's see here. Yeah, I know you said something about the less blood flow to the amygdala, but I'm curious like why people say things on MDMA that they've been hiding for years, even from themselves.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah. And another question is why do people hide things from their partner? Yeah. Mostly because they think that their partner's going to react poorly. Let's say I, you and I are in a relationship and I've had an affair with somebody. I know if I tell you that, you're going to scream, yell, call me names. Maybe I shouldn't tell you this. I'll probably cry and break down first, but if that was our agreement, our relationship parameters. And something like 40% of couples end up having an affair. On MDMA, you that person decides if it's safe to communicate. What ends up happening is everything feels pretty safe. And it really comes down to why are people having an affair? What do you want to do about it? Things like that. But it it's better to a lot of this mostly an issue with men talking to women. A lot of men hold back stuff and it creates a wall in their relationship because they don't feel safe enough to expose who they are with their partner. On MDMA, you can talk about sex lies and everything else in the same way you talk about the weather. And you can work out issues in the same way where people can really understand each other. I never have people come up to me and say, we really understand each other really well, that's why we want a divorce. So when couples with the empathy that MDMA brings understand each other without blame, that goes a long way towards healing any relationship.

Kristin 28:48

Yeah, and the openness. And it's kind of sad that so many people, that's the person that you spend so much time with and don't feel ability to be open. That's sad.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Yeah, it is sad. And it's a hard time for people in relationships now. It's a stressful world, and people don't have communication skills. I do one of my books, one of the times I was on the Oprah show was for a book called Communication Miracles for Couples. And she really loved that book, so it became a big bestseller. I started to see that people don't really know how to communicate effectively to their partners. And on the MDMA, we practice new tools for communication that are very useful.

Kristin 29:35

I'd love to explore some of those communication miracles since it was brought up.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Yeah. Here, one which is so simple, is people really appreciate hearing appreciations. So telling your partner something I notice about you that I really appreciate is something about their character or their behavior. That's always good and important. And people forget to do that. But the number one thing that I think is missing is the ability to give your partner empathy. And especially men are not very well suited for giving empathy, and women really want that an understanding. So I teach them a simple tool that I teach is when your partner complains about something or is having a hard day, say it sounds like, and then summarize what they said in one sentence or less. Sounds like you've had a really challenging day at the office. That must be really frustrating. And guess how they feel about it? That tool, which is not quantum physics, is very effective for helping people.

Kristin 30:44

Yeah, it might be like a quantum leap if you start communicating that way. Hop onto a new relationship timeline.

SPEAKER_01 30:52

I find that when couples can even do that simple tool of giving each other understanding and empathy, that almost everything else changes in their relationship.

Kristin 31:03

Yeah, I feel like so much of it is wanting to be heard or seen, not necessarily fixed, right? Or at least I feel like that way sometimes when I'm chatting.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

I'm like, I just need to and men don't understand that often. Yeah. And so they they think, oh, you want to be fixed, or they get defensive and neither or other things that don't work. And if a man actually learns how to really give empathy, they can avoid a lot of arguments and really help their partner feel loved.

Kristin 31:34

Yeah. And then those, I bet those appreciation statements are going to be following right behind that more easily. And then you're on a better feedback loop or a better loop than what did you call it earlier? I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Misery go round.

Kristin 31:46

Misery go round. Yeah. I'd rather be on the more joyful one if I can choose, right? Like we do have the power of choice for so much, for so many aspects of our lives. Let me see here. Let me look at some of my stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

There's really juicy things to talk about.

Kristin 32:01

Yeah, there is. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

I have a question for you. What do you see as the biggest problems in relationships that come up again and again?

Kristin 32:11

I feel like communication is a big one, or mismatch libidos, or maybe just not fully owning the desire. Maybe there's that fear of will I be considered weird if I own up to that I have XYZ desires. Yeah. Or yeah, I feel like the communication, maybe libido stuff. I feel like those are two big ones. I make probably money too. Um I haven't really gotten into a space where I'm like commingling finances with someone. So I haven't really fully experienced that one personally. Just on my own. Me and my puppy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Take something like even sex and communication. A lot of couples have not expressed exactly precisely what they like and don't like in sex, because that's too scary of a conversation. On MDMA, you can talk about that in in quantum detail. It's not a problem. And that really just that conversation can really help somebody's sex life.

Kristin 33:09

Oh, yeah. Especially if they're able to be like, oh, I really like this or be more emotive. Yeah. And I think that it's important for people to know what they like sexually, or and I feel like that all shift and evolve over time too. And maybe they could go into it with a discovery and curiosity lens with some MDMA.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Absolutely. And when people take MDMA and they have that discussion, it can solve a lot of stuff right off the bat, including the the when men see that helping understanding and empathy might lead to more sex, then you get into a happy merry-go-round. Yeah, that positive reinforcement.

Kristin 33:51

Exactly, exactly. Almost said something else that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

Men and women are very different, not only in their sexual things, but in how they look at the world. And so one of the things that really helps with the MD Ma is really just understanding men are from Mars, women are from Venus. We are two different species. Think of a cow and a bull. If you try to milk a bull, your life expectancy is four seconds. If you try and milk a cow, they're like, yeah, whatever. And men and women are just have a very different worldview. And we don't we tend to think that the opposite sex is a slightly crazy version of ourselves. But really, no, they're a completely different species, and you want to understand what makes that species tick, what supports them, and what they really need from you.

Kristin 34:44

I'm curious. Okay, let's dive into that.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Okay.

Kristin 34:47

For the male-female distinctions.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

Of course, these are generalizations, but they are true in most cases that men need to be respected so that when and when women complain about their behavior, that's the exact opposite of what they want. They want respect, appreciation, and of course men like sex. Women need emotional understanding, empathy and understanding. It's been said that men use sex to get to love, and women use love to get to sex. I've heard that. And I think that's largely true. Both need more play and fun. And that's something that a lot of couples lose as they spend more time together. So I talk about that in our sessions. And we go into a whole that there's different love languages and things like that, which can be useful, but trying to get really precise as to what are the things that are needed in order to feel like you're having success in the relationship. And men generally don't need a lot of empathy and understanding. Women give that to men, and it's like you're wasting my time. And men give fix it to women, and it's like you don't understand me.

Kristin 36:06

Yeah. I was just thinking about the stability and safety too. I feel like that a lot of women like to feel.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

So there's a a study, a survey done. They asked men, how long has it been since you felt like your physical life might be threatened? And the average answer was 19 years. Wow. They asked that women, and the average answer was three days. Now, three days and nineteen years, you're dealing with completely different universes. And when men hear that, they're that's ridiculous. I can't even understand what that's like. But since I'm not a woman, all I know is that's my wife has bought wanted to buy a $10,000 alarm system for our house. I'm fine keeping the doors open saying, come in, take what you want. Yeah. But now our house is like Fort Knox because he needs that to feel safe. I spent the $10,000 because that is her need.

Kristin 37:11

Yeah. I'm definitely at the time like, okay, I grew up with my mom would ask us about, okay, did you double check that you locked all the doors and windows? Yeah. And I feel like women, especially too, are like running and it's so much on the program. Leaving somewhere, like scanning a parking lot, is just so second nature or like just so ingrained that yeah, I don't know if a lot of guys really think about that.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

Yeah, I walk through parking lots with hundred dollar bills falling out of my pocket and never have a thought.

Kristin 37:38

Yeah. And we're like scanning it, may not pump gas at night because of it or whatever it is. Carry a glot. No, I'm getting I am in Texas. Yeah, I'm just teasing. Yeah, I'm curious. Has there been any shifts that you you either yourself have had about love, relationships, intimacy, or any core ones that people walk away with?

SPEAKER_01 38:00

For me personally, I didn't really know what empathy was until I took MDMA. So I was like a a nerd that way. So it really opened up my eyes. And I'd say that's true for a lot of men. They realize, oh, this is what intimacy is. This is what she's wanting. Like, like it's almost like a revelation, like a new universe. And then I also get women to understand what it is like to be a guy, because really the sexes don't understand each other very well. So that's a very common takeaway that I see over and over again. The other thing is that the issue of sexless marriages is something that comes up so often that it's one of those things where people have shame about, so nobody talks about it. And being able to just to talk about it and realize how normal it is. For couples that have been married five years or longer, I'd say that's more of rare sex is the norm versus something else. So releasing couples from a lot of unnecessary shame is something that's important.

Kristin 39:10

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I feel like the life will life, or if you let it to like with kids and obligations or jobs and all the things, it's gonna feel like if you're not prioritizing that in play, then it's like one of the things that just kind of goes to the back burner. And it's so important though, to keep it front to me, front and center or heated over the flame. Is there any kind of protocol that you would suggest? Maybe once a quarter at least, or every six months, or or um what they can I have noticed that some couples do this as a yearly thing.

SPEAKER_01 39:43

And they find that is a way to deal with their issues without going to prolonged therapy, and also clears out the cobwebs, allows them to feel connected to each other. You really don't have to do it more often than that, and I don't suggest that people do.

Kristin 40:02

Yeah, I was curious if there was like a a good little reset or something.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

There are couples that will take it every six months on their own, and I think that can be beneficial as well.

Kristin 40:15

Yeah. Is there anything else that you want people to know or share or any rabbit holes you want to go down for the last five, ten minutes?

SPEAKER_01 40:23

Yeah. Well, something that's happening lately. I teach a training on this, how to be an MDMA facilitator. And uh people can go to MDMA training.net and with the 10-week course, it's all online. And I've taught over 500 people how to do this protocol because I I see it's so necessary for couples. And a lot of people are now making a living doing that. That's one thing. I also uh have something I think could be very useful for your listeners called the 12 questions that lead to instant intimacy with anyone. So if they go to XTC as XT for Couples Net, they put in their email address, they'll get 10 ways to avoid bad trips and 12 questions that lead to instant intimacy. We need help now finding that intimacy. And you look at the word intimacy, it has the word instructions in it, into me see. And these 12 questions are a great way for couples to connect with or without MDMA. And I think we need all the help we can get nowadays, and those things can really help a lot.

Kristin 41:31

Yeah, for sure. I love that. I love the training too. I'm gonna have to look into that. It could be something really cool to offer, add to like even my tool belt.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah, and in fact, if people want $200 off, they can use the coupon code off 200 and they'll get $200 off that training.

Kristin 41:49

Well, I'll put that in the notes and stuff too. Sweet. Anything else you want to?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

I have those two books, Ecstasy is medicine and egg or couples, and I deep dive into some of the exercises I use, whether you're exploring on your own or with a partner. And those are on audiobooks or Kindle or paperback. So there's a lot of ways to learn more about this. But I really think it's the future of therapy because would you rather spend a lot of money getting little results over a long time or little money spending immediate results in a way that's fun? That's not it's a no-brainer.

Kristin 42:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:23

Which is why me and most of the people I trained in this protocol are pretty busy doing this.

Kristin 42:28

Yeah, for sure. I feel like the psychedelics or MDMA or something like body base too. Yeah. Like even like combining those are like great. But yeah, just like the repetitive hamster wheel of talk therapy, which I think it can help, but not to the degree like what you're offering or insinuating too, or what I've even experienced in through personally. Whether it was body work or MDMA or ketamine, mushrooms, even too, but not these are all new tools.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

These are all these new tools that just work a lot better than the old tools.

Kristin 43:00

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:01

So let's sharpen them up.

Kristin 43:05

Thank you so much for coming on and sharing.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

My pleasure, Kristen. Great questions.

Kristin 43:11

Thank you for being here, love, for listening with your whole heart, for listening to the very end, and for walking this wild path with me. If today's episode stirred something in you, whether a giggle, a tear, or a full body yes, don't keep it to yourself. Share the magic, leave a review, drop me a note, or send it to a fellow sacred rebel who needs it. And remember, your story is sacred, your desires are divine, and your mess is part of the masterpiece. Keep showing up, keep feeling it all, and keep turning your life into poetry. Until next time, stay wild, stay tender, and stay true to that beautiful soul of yours. All my love, Kristen.