The Burnout Types Nobody Talks About with Megan Winkler

Burnout isn’t just being tired, and most people don’t realize how many different ways it can show up. I’m talking with Megan Winkler about the real types of burnout, how to spot them earlier, and how to actually recover without making it another thing on your to-do list.

In this episode:
0:00 The different types of burnout most people don’t even realize exist
2:00 Why burnout isn’t just physical and how it actually shows up
7:14 Why women and creatives are more prone to burnout
11:00 The subtle signs you’re heading toward burnout before you crash
19:40 The simplest way to start recovering without adding more to your plate

Hang out with Megan Winkler:
meganwinkler.com
meganwinkler.com/book

Hang out with Deanna Seymour:
deannaseymour.com
instagram.com/thedeannaseymour

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Welcome to the Playhouse Collective podcast, where we hang out with all the brilliant business owners who are part of the Playhouse Collective and who really are seriously the people who make the Playhouse what it is. So today I'm hanging out with Megan Winkler, who helps business owners prevent burnout before it tanks their income, relationships, and decision-making capacity. She's got an MBA, she's a Reiki master, a practicing witch, and author of Breaking Up with Burnout. Her work is grounded in real-world leadership experience and intuitive wisdom with a whole lot of humor. Totally true. I've been friends with Megan for a few years now. I can attest to that. She's a blue dot Texan and spends her free time leading the book Coven, a witchy book club, and advocating for the LGBTQIA plus community and voting rights. Megan, I'm so excited to have this conversation. Thank you. Me too. Oh my gosh. Before we started recording, I was telling Megan that I just recently finished her book, Breaking Up with Burnout. And I was saying with with a with I was saying with a human, I mean as a human with ADHD, it is rare that I finish a book cover to cover. Sometimes I'll go back to them, I'll skip around, I'll do whatever. But I read this book cover to cover and it was very timely for me and how it was feeling. And so I was like, oh my gosh, we have to record an interview to talk about it. So thank you for doing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Thank you. I'm super excited to be here. And you know, I love chatting with you. So you know, might as well record it for everybody else to hear.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I love it. Okay, we're gonna like dive right in because I want this to be like jam-packed. Let's talk about the thing that really struck me in your book, which was that there are different types of burnout. Because I just like always lumped it together. I'm like, burnout is just me like collapsing. Also, I I think maybe, and tell me if this is right or wrong, like or if this is your experience. I think most people think of physical burnout as burnout, maybe. I don't know. That's what in my mind what it was. So when your book kind of went into these different types, and I would love for you to like kind of talk about those, I my mind was blown.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Tell the people about the burnout types.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Here we go. All the burnout types. So yeah, so the book came from my personal experience of burning out as a business owner, as a creative and spiritual person. Um, and because I am a big ol' academic and um I have to figure out like why things are working the way they are. Like, context is one of my top Clifton strengths. Um, so I started digging into it and I realized that everybody just kind of talked about burnout as like this one monolithic thing. And I remember being in a coaching call with um a whole bunch of other creatives, and I was a participant in the call. And so what I would normally do in these calls is I'll just pull out like paints and pens and like doodle and like kind of create these graphical notes for myself. And I actually created kind of this spider webby looking thing, and I was writing down the different types of burnout at the same time that all of this other stuff was happening, and I realized that is what was missing from burnout research was the very human aspect of it and all the different ways that you can burn out. So you can burn out socially, you can burn out mentally, uh, physically, of course, energetically, empathically, um, all of these different ways. And I identified actually six different types of burnout that women and creatives tend to um kind of fall into. And it's interesting that you mentioned physical burnout because all of burnout symptoms, all the burnout types, have physical parts to them, right? So we want to collapse at the end of the day, we have tension headaches, we have GI issues, you know, we can't sleep. So these are very physical manifestations of these different types of burnout. Um, but I found that for me, I tend to physically burnout because, you know, I do some moderate exercise through the week, but I'm not pushing it super hard. I'm not helping friends move anymore because I'm in my 40s and need to be paid and more than just beer and pizza. And um, so that's just not a thing for me. But for me, like energetic, empathic burnout, um, those really um apply to me and I found have really applied to creatives.

SPEAKER_01 4:37

Well, that's why I thought I wasn't burnt out because I don't really get like physically burnt out. Like, I mean, kind of the same as you. I like go on walks and do whatever like I'm just not feeling it as bad, like you know. I mean, maybe like you were saying, and I love in the book how you kind of like say how some of them are connected, you know, like sometimes this can feel like this, but also like this, and like how you just said a lot of them have physical manifestations of the burnout. But since in my mind it was just like burnt out, like collapsing, I was like, Well, I'm not burnt out, I'm just cranky. I don't know why I'm so cranky. Um right, and so that was, I guess I think when I read it, it was empathetic burnout. And I definitely consider myself to be a very empathic, I don't even know if I'm saying I'm like putting the wrong emphasis on the. Oh, you're good, you're good. Okay. Um, and so when I started feeling like just like snippier and meaner, like a little bit more judgy in my brain, I'm like, what am I doing? Uh is this what's happening? And then when I read your book, I was like, oh my God, I am totally burnt out. Um and I was telling you too, I thought I was like, uh with the Playhouse in in particular, I started feeling like I'm sick of talking about online business. Like, online business is so dumb. And I've had my like, you know, in 2020, 2021, my like getting mad at sleazy marketing, you know, we all kind of went through that roller coaster together. I feel like I was kind of over that, but then I just started being like, what's the point, even of online? Like, we're all just selling to each other. And I was just like so mad. I was like, the playhouse should be a place where we don't even talk about any business, like we're just gonna have fun. And then when I read your book, I was like, Oh, I think that also might be my burnout. I think I'm really mad. But I never even thought, like, I just thought I was like progressing. I was like, Yes, I'm so above, like, I don't know what I thought. I just thought I was like working through some stuff. And then reading your book, I'm like, oh no, no, no, no. This is totally burnout.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

So yeah, oh yeah, no, it happens to the best of us. I did the same thing earlier this year. I was just like, I'm tired of it all. And I actually went in and like created like this whole Discord server that I never shared with anybody. But I was like, if I was gonna create an online space, what would it be about? And I'm like, books and dogs and coffee and recipes and crocheting, and I don't even crochet. And then I realized I'm like, oh yeah, Megs needs a break.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

Yes, and that's I mean, I like the balance we have in the playhouse where not everything is about business. But I mean, towards the end of last year and the beginning of this year, I was like, we're not. It's like banned. We're not even gonna talk about business. Like, you know, and then I'm like, wait, wait, I have a business. Wait, I need wait, what? What am I talking about?

SPEAKER_00 7:17

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

So, okay, let's talk about maybe a little bit like you said, women and creatives specifically. Yeah. What kind of popped up for you writing the book in your research about why these demographics seem to be um like I don't, I'm gonna say targets of burnout, but I don't think burnout is like targeting. I don't know what I'm trying to say, but you know what I mean? Like what is it about uh that maybe makes us more susceptible to burnout?

SPEAKER_00 7:43

Right, right. So one thing that I've noticed in creative people that goes um it transcends gender, right? Is that creative people tend to look at the collective, the communities around them, the people around them, like they're creating art or they're creating um, you know, if you even want to get more strategic, business-y about it, they're creating, you know, transformational courses for their clients. So like they're very outward looking. Um, and then women in particular, you know, we're socialized from the time we're toddlers to be caregivers and to take care of other people. So we're always thinking about other people. So um, you know, for folks who I mean, on the one hand, I'm really glad I'm not one of these folks, but there are people out in the world that are just like they've got blinders on and they are just looking at what affects them, and that is it. And they don't get burned out in the same way that those of us who are really community and collective-centric do. Because I think 2026 is a great example, like all of the current events and political events, like that for me, that's what pushed me to create that Discord server, right? Where I was like, I don't want to do business, I just want to be cozy, I just want to be like safe with like my safe people, right? And so when we're we're taking in these larger contexts of our life and how it's a we situation and not a me situation, we're gonna burn out easier.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

This is funny because I a long time ago, before I even knew what what boundaries were, I mean, we're talking like maybe early 2000s, my New Year's resolution was to be more of a bitch. And looking back, I'm like, oh, I really just wanted to make boundaries. Like I just felt like, oh my gosh. And I've definitely sometimes thought I wish I could be like dumber, which is mean to say, but um probably coming from burnout when I'm feeling that like a dumber, I feel like vappac, like like, oh, just focused on you. But it's like that person you're saying with the tunnel vision, because you're like, wouldn't it be so much easier to just go through life and like not give a shit about anybody else? And like, I don't care if I'm like tricking people into buying my course with a fake timer, like I don't care if I'm like, I'm just like in it for me. And so I think I don't actually think those things, but I bet you anytime that I've been feeling like that would be a better way to live, I'm probably circling burnout. Would you yeah? That's probably true.

SPEAKER_00 10:16

Absolutely. Like anytime you have those extreme thoughts or extreme desires to like you were saying with the playhouse, it's like it's no business. Like that's extreme. That's one of those little orange flags that pops up and says, Hey, wait a minute, you might be going too far here.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah, I mean, but I like felt it. I was like, this is brilliant. This is gonna be awesome. Because I, until I read your book, I was like, I just thought it was like a new idea. I was like, oh my god, this is gonna be perfect. Why hasn't anyone built a business community that doesn't talk about business? This is brilliant. And it's like, oh no, wait, maybe not. So, okay, so kind of crankiness, yeah. Um, maybe extremes is something to look out for. Um, is there anything else that we could like kind of start to notice? Because I also liked in your book how you were saying you're never gonna break up with it permanently, but you're gonna like spot it coming a lot easier, you're gonna have better habits in place for trying to keep it at bay. And that felt like, oh, okay, so it you're not expecting perfection. Like I read the book and I will never be burnt out again. Right. But it like even having this conversation with you, it's like, oh, next time we start feeling really cranky or I start going to an extreme, I can be like, oh, hold on a second. What's happening?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's really important to kind of basically start a dialogue with yourself, right? Have this conversation with yourself and really talk to your fears, talk to your shame, talk to your guilt, um, and ask it like what it's protecting you from, what um, you know, it's trying to do to help you. And so you'll start noticing your own patterns. So I'll use myself as an example because what I experience may not be what you experience or somebody else experiences who's listening. So for me, I find that if I get start getting like a lot of tension headaches or like a lot of stiffness up here in my shoulders, I'm like, okay, this is an issue. If I start um like skipping meals, like forgetting to eat, I'm a foodie. I love food. If I'm forgetting to eat for me, that's a sign. Um, and also like having a lot more irritability. Like, I'm not an irritable person by nature. And as soon as anyone starts like just getting on my nerves, like right off, assuming they're not wearing a particular colored hat. Um, it's like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And I did identify a phrase that I say to myself, and I find this is so interesting because I think we all have these phrases, but mine is like, oh, everybody wants something from me. And it's like, that's not necessarily the case. Like sometimes it's just like my hair appointment saying, Hey, can you confirm your appointment? And I'm like, oh my God, why are you sending me a text? Who are you? Leave me alone. Why does everybody want something from me? And so, you know, and it's like, oh, okay, yeah, I I need to take a break. I need to, you know, maybe reschedule some things that are on the calendar and give myself some more space.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Mm-hmm.

unknown 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Oh my gosh, hilarious. I love that. You're like, how dare you try to confirm my appointment? Like, but honestly. And it can kind of like sneak up on you. I feel like um that was interesting to read about. And then also talking about shame. Because you were just saying, too, like feeling like you can spot what's happening, but also being able to kind of readjust. Like, I was thinking about this the other day too. Um, actually, the podcast that I recorded recorded right before this, the guest reached out to me and was like, wait, is this like a live in the playhouse kind of thing? Is this just me and you? Because I do lots of different podcasts. And I was like, Oh, this is just me and you on Zoom. And she was like, Oh, okay, I can handle that. But I was like replied to her probably because of reading your book. And I was like, Oh my gosh, thank you for emailing me and like being brave enough to be like, uh, I have realized that I don't have it in me to do this like big group thing. Here's what I can do, here's what I can't do. But um, I guess my my point of saying all that is like, do you think sometimes even if you start to realize it, like the shame of feeling burnt out can keep people from like getting what they need?

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Um perhaps. So shame was an interesting emotion. And so in the book, I outline like all the emotions associated with burnout, including excitement, right? We get in this honeymoon phase of a new job and we want to pour all our energy into it and we burn out. Um, shame was the one that stuck out though as more of like a precursor to burnout. So like we're shamed into acting a certain way and being a certain way, right? And so when we step out of those bounds, we're not honoring who we are authentically, and we're like trying to like fit ourselves into somebody else's box, and that can be really, really burnt burning out. Burning out, it can really burn us out. Um, so and and I do think that these days, you know, going to a therapist or going to a coach um is seen as something much more positive. And like I know I have boomer parents, and back in the day, like you didn't go to a therapist unless you were crazy, you know, like there was something really wrong with you. And it's like, no, you're human, right? So there can be that shame around seeking help. Um, but but shame is really interesting, you know, it really comes from our conditioning, and a lot of the ways we burn out and the reasons we burn out are praised, right? We're being productive, we're creating new things, we're hustling at work, we're getting the kids off to all the appointments and whatnot. And it's like, wow, you're doing an amazing job. And inside you're like, oh my God, but I'm dying inside. And there is shame wrapped up in that to say, I need help or I can't do this long term. So yeah, it's it's super complex.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Yeah. Okay, let's talk about the other emotions that you were saying. Um, excitement is one I was telling you that I've joked before because I really did think it was a joke. I didn't think it was real. But then when I read the book, I was like, oh wait, it is real that I've burnt it, burnt myself out on fun. Like I will get super excited. One year in particular, I did like an advent calendar for my kids at the holidays. And I was like so excited and I planned all these things. And then by the end of it, I was like, oh my gosh, if we have to do some stupid fun family thing, I'm gonna like pull my eyes out. Uh and then probably a little bit of shame around that. Like, oh my god, what's wrong with me? Like, it's the holidays, it's my family. Like, so um, I thought I was joking, but it's real.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

You're saying it's real, yeah, it's real, it's real. No, I mean, and a lot of a lot of people will burn out, like I said, from you know, coming into a new job, or like if you're in launch mode, oh my gosh, as a business owner, like you need to build space in there because I don't know about you, but I have seen so many business owners that are like after a launch, it's like they've depleted all their energy to actually deliver what they've sold. I'm like, girl, you're killing yourself.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

What are you doing? It's like, oh my god, all the people who gave you money are like, wait, what? No, yeah, there's nothing left for us. Wait, hold up. Was that me? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:27

And it's like, especially if you're teaching other people how to launch and then you burn yourself out launching. It's like, I don't respectfully, I don't want to learn from you because those are not good patterns there. So yeah, excitement is one of them. Um, anger is maybe my favorite emotion, which I realize sounds so strange, but I think I actually say that in the book. Because anger shows us where we have deep sadness. It shows us where we had a boundary that we did not realize we had. So um, you know, especially if you feel yourself just like suddenly in this moment of rage, it's like we need to stop and be like, why did this anger me so much? What is the emotion or the reason underneath it? And right now there's a lot to be angry about. Um, and I actually saw a post recently that said something along the lines of, My anger is so hot because it's rooted in love. And that just resonated so much for me because it's like, yeah, you love so much that you are angry about what's going on in the world. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

So oh my gosh. Um, okay, well, then here is maybe my final question, but new questions always pop into my head while we're talking. But how can we sort of start healing burnout without accidentally adding more pressure or like more perfection? You know what I mean? Like, oh gosh, now I realize I'm burnt out. I better be really good at not being burnt out because I know I'm the type of person who might accidentally fall into that trap.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

So yeah, yeah. No, that's a really great question because I found a lot of a neurospicy, and I've actually heard the recent term of neurosexy. I'm like, okay, I love that. So our neuro sexy people, um, a lot of times we will fall into the all or nothing kind of extremes. It's like, oh, I'm burned out. So then I've got to come over here and be like really good about not being burned out. And so that's just a different kind of burnout. Um, so and if you hear a groan in the background, it's my dog. So she she gets a little uh huffy when she's trying to take a nap in my office. And you're being so rude talking.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Oh my god, she's burnt out, be quiet. She needs some sight.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

She is, she is, yes. Um, but what I would recommend is kind of generally speaking, is don't try to add more to your plates. So instead of like trying to add in meditation or add in walks or anything like that, like I would really encourage you to block off part of your calendar for I love this video. Yeah, yeah. Like have these containers of time in your schedule where you don't have anything scheduled. So if you want to keep working on something, you can. If you want to go for a walk, you can. If you want to go do, you know, yoga, meditation, whatever, cool. Um, but a lot of times it's like with burnout, we try to like almost medicate it in terms of like adding another activity to our schedule. And a lot of times you don't need that. Um, and reach out to people that you love and you trust and who love you, um, you know, be it your partner or you know, have a very frank conversation with your kids where you're just like, look, every day mommy needs 30 minutes to herself. And so you don't need anything in this 30 minutes, or you put a sign up on your bedroom door or whatever. So it's just kind of creating that space because when you have that space, then you'll have time to talk to those emotions to also ask yourself, like, what burned me out? Where do I feel like I'm overextended? Because it looks different for all of us.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Yes. Okay, well, I love that because I do feel like sometimes it turns into like another thing to work on not being burnt out. And then you're like, oh my gosh. Yeah. And I like that. And then if you feel like going on a walk, you can, but you don't have to do the thing where I'll like be like, okay, you know what? I probably need to move my body more and that's gonna help me, or like I need to like be more mindful, or I need to start journaling. And then if I don't, then I'm like a loser because I didn't go on my walk or I didn't journal or I didn't do the thing, which is not helping any sort of shame or that I'm experiencing already by adding something and like failing at that too.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Right. And give yourself permission not to make everything productive, like not everything has to be productive or like multitasked or whatever. Like go on a walk, don't listen to a podcast, don't catch up on like whatever course you're in. Just don't. Um, you know, try to do just like one thing at a time. One of my favorite Buddhist teachers is Tik Not Han. And one of the little lessons that I try to share with everybody as much as possible is he's talking about. If you're eating an orange, just eat the orange. And so he would teach his students like you're peeling the orange, you're noticing the juice that kind of squirts out when you peel it. You're noticing what it tastes like. And as you chew it and as you swallow it, and you're experiencing just the orange. And so if you take nothing else away from this episode, just eat the orange.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

Just eat the orange. Not the frog. The eating the frog means you have to be productive. Eat canuts eating a frog. So eat the orange. Cool out. Um, I love that. One thing I noticed too, and I think reading the book helped me realize this, is I was also feeling like really rushed. Everything I was doing, I was like, oh my god, I gotta get this email out. Like, I gotta like you talked about walking. I will walk and boxer while I'm walking to like do like I was multitasking and I just felt like oh, there's not like I just felt like Jesse Spano in that episode of Say by the Bell, I was like, there's never enough time, like I was just hurrying. I was like, oh my god, I gotta get this email out, and I gotta eat my lunch, and I'm gonna like listen to this podcast while I eat my lunch so I can like and that was like driving me bonkers. So sort of being more realistic, also like you were saying, with my time of like it's okay if this doesn't all get done today, like what calm down. And I also like just got rid of some of the stuff I was doing that I was like, Do I even need to do that? Like, this is all specifically, usually with my business. Um, I think I was doing a lot of like busy work, even though I think I'm pretty good at not doing that stuff, it sneaks in when you don't really from excitement in the beginning, and you're like, Oh, this would be cool to do. And then as you're doing it, you're like, Is this actually still cool? This still feels cool. So checking it.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, and that's where the shame comes in, right? It's like anytime you start saying, Well, I should be doing this. It's like, should you though?

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Yeah, no, we're taking naps, we're putting signs up on our doors. The new plans, okay, awesome. Well, this has been amazing. I want you to tell the people where they can hang out with you on the internet for all the things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Yeah. So you can swing by my website, it's meganwinkler.com, um, and you'll find out all the different ways you can work with me, all of my uh services and whatnot. And then if you go to meganwinkler.com slash book, uh, you can grab a copy of the book for yourself. It is available digitally and physically. Um, and I promise you, my number one goal in writing the book was I am not going to write a book on burnout that will burn you out. So it is uh hopefully very digestible and all that. Um so yeah, and then I am I'm here in the playhouse and I am also on Instagram at it's MeganWinkler. Um, and you can come hang out with me over there or on LinkedIn, just search for my name. I'll pop up.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Um, and I just want to say one more time that as a person with ADHD who was definitely in the throes of burnout when I got this book. I mean, obviously, I was like, yes, I want to break up with burnout. Um, and you were coming on and you're in the playhouse, and I wanted to read your book because I love you so much. And honestly, I don't even know if I knew I was in burnout when I picked it up. To be honest, I think I was like, oh, okay, this makes sense. But it was like a really fun read. It was really, it was like I don't usually like if anybody's listening who's in my book swap, they know that I do not finish books and I usually just go for the snacks and the wine. They're gonna be like, Deanna read a book, that's crazy. So it's a good testimonial for you that I read this whole book and I loved it. Like, I think at one point, too, you were like, you probably need to drink water. And I feel like you wrote a line where you were like, no, seriously, go get go get some water. I'll wait or something. And I was like cracking up. I was like, oh my god, it's so funny. So it is a really fun read. It's it's not like textbooky at all, but it is very eye-opening in terms of all the different things that you name and and the ways to handle it. So that's awesome. Thank you so much. Yeah, okay, so we are gonna move in to our live QA for the people who showed up here today in the Playhouse Live, um, or for people who submitted questions beforehand. And so the replay of this special live QA is going to live inside the playhouse. So if you want to learn more about where we're hanging out in the playhouse, head over to jointheplayhouse.com and we'll see you there.