Supplements 1: The story of how not to be overwhelmed

Dr. Carey Williams of Rutgers University and well known speaker on all things supplements, shares her advice on deciding whether or not your  horse even needs a supplement.  In part 1 of a series, we talk the basics of when they might be warranted on how to choose the best product for your horse.

Does my horse need a supplement: By Dr. Carey Williams

Transcript

Welcome to extension horses tack box talk series horse stories with a purpose.
 I'm your  host Dr. Kris Hiney with Oklahoma state university and we have one of our very favorite guests coming back to us today so Dr Carey Williams from Rutgers University welcome back Carey 
Hello everybody thank you for the invite.
 So we're excited to talk to Carey today because this is what she's kind of known for her specialty across the nation so she gives a lot of talks on the supplements so we're going to be digging into supplements with Carey today and hopefully answering some questions for for folks so I guess we'll get started Carey there are so many supplements that are marketed to horse owners that I think it can be just dizzying so how does one know like do I need to get that supplement subscription service as a horse owner does every horse need a supplement?

 That's a great question and one that I definitely feel needs to start off any supplement conversation regardless of your a horse owner or trainer educator cetera and my answer to that is usually always without knowing anything about the horse if there's two things if your horses on a balanced diet and two does not have any specific problems then most likely your horse does not need a supplement so why are there so many of them then he because they are being marketed very very well if I can be blatantly honest on it yeah that's why we're here honesty is good
and yeah I mean there there's so much good marketing and I mean there's also so those two blanket statements I just said the balance diet and that you know if you want it lack of better words and I'm for those of you can't see me using my quote my air quotes a normal horse you know there's so much question mark behind both of those statements that a lot of course people out there feel like maybe I'll just cover all my bases because I don't know if my diet is balanced and well I have a young horse and I don't think he has problems but let me use a supplement just in case there's something that it could cover so I think there's so much gray area that there is probably a lot of question mark in people's minds so let's start with the the balance diet you know for it for us is nutritionist it seems pretty straightforward and easy for us to think about a balanced diet for that average horse owner that may be a little bit tougher or more challenging so how does the average person know if their horse has a balanced diet yeah and and I'm glad we started there as well because being a nutritionist that's always what I look at is tell me what your horse is on what is your diet look like and I mean the first thing in the majority of the diet should be forage so what kind of forage is it is a good quality forage meaning if it's a hay is it an immature hay that has lots of leaves not as many stems or not any large seed heads does it or are they on pasture your ID pastor for a few hours of the day and not like a brown pasture that's all dirt but they actually eating grass so you know what is the forage look like in is it the majority of their diet it could be a hundred percent of their diet or you can just be a majority of their diet and then from there we'll look at okay now what activity level what are they doing and it you know I'll try to pair up with the class of horses if they you know are on a good for age and maybe need a little grain supplements on top of that then more than likely it's balanced but I think forage is kind of the first place to go to when looking at at that so an owner though can't really look at their horse though and tell if it has a balanced diet right not necessarily because a lot of the deficiences really hide themselves until it's too late pretty much like a lot of the mineral deficiencies and I'm the first one to admit to that you know mineral nutrition is probably my hardest class as a graduate student because there are so many mineral interactions and that's the thing you might have aid magnesium deficiency but it didn't come from the fact that there was low magnesium they came from the fact that there was something else that was high so it really gets very complicated to look at some of these vitamin and or mineral deficiencies and a lot of times you won't see classic signs of clinical signs in till it's too late yeah so it's a little different than just saying Hey there get enough calories which we can generally pretty much easily on the calorie side too much or not but but beyond that like even protein and and I don't want to get too into the weeds but I amino acids or everything but that's disguised for a time if a horse actually has a deficiency yeah that is correct you know any individual amino acids to are really hard because it'll first come out as a I you know the low level of protein overall then you have to find a word is that lies a just a straight up level of protein problem or is there a specific limiting amino acid does become a problem so I know as nutritionists we always recommend well one forage base because that's healthy is for the gut of horse and then typically the next thing out of our mouth is did you have your forage tested but a standard forage test is not going to tell you everything you need to know depends on the level of testing you get because some of them only give you calcium and phosphorus as the two minerals and you don't get the rest of it but if you do pay a little extra you can get the whole package but then the question becomes okay I have the levels of on the test but what if does my horse needed are these levels actually high enough for my X. y or Z. horse whether it's a pregnant animal growing animal exercising animal etcetera and that's really when I think working with your nutritionist comes into play and I'm not even gonna say veterinarian because this is way more than they even usually deal with on a daily basis and so probably the key to at that if you know a nutritionist they like math that's how you can tell us
yeah Hey feed math
so they may be if you know if you're worried about it you might want to actually consult with somebody if you wanted to go to that level but I think you had mentioned it you know we talk about for ages and then a lot of horses also get grain and so we generally is that going to contribute to that horse have enough balanced ration and that's another great question because yes I see a lot of people saying well you know my horses on X. Y or Z. grain I think great okay well you know we've already talked about their forage grain they know what is the grain unless they there on a half a scoop of blah blah blah and okay what size is your scoop and how much is that and they're like well I don't know well it eventually I can make them go back and figure out how much it was then they can tell me it was four pounds of whatever companies whatever feed on then I can go back and look at the bag and what the bag recommend well if the bank recommended eight pounds for their particular type of horse at the activity level there in the weight then they're only giving half of what was required recommended on the bag well the way companies make recommendations on the bag is based on the amount of nutrients other nutrients vitamins minerals like etcetera that's in that feed compared to two percent of your horse's body weight in acts for x forage so yeah there's a little bit of assumption going on there but if you're only feeding half of what is recommended my guess is they're probably missing something they might be finding calories but there might be some other things that they are missing because you're not eating the recommended amounts to and so that's kind of you if you're feeding according to manufacturer's recommendations good quality forage you generally assume that my horse is going to be pretty good on on nutrients so hopefully I'm not going to end up there but again there's a lot of other types of supplements that aren't zinc coppers selenium right the standard things we think about and feed what about all the rest of those so and there is and you know Hey maybe we can save that for another webinar I can go know on no on and we could talk for hours on the different classes of supplements joint supplements health supplements calming aids digestive aids you name it in yeah a lot of those don't have what we call our classic nutrients in there they might be nutraceuticals are you know the joint supplements chondroitin sulfate glucosamine and those sorts of things so that's when you're starting to look at the horse overall and this is when I would bring the veterinarian into the picture does your horse had a clinical joint problem that might benefit from a joint supplement does your horse have a you know something where they might need to digestive aid or or some of those things but again you really need to be careful with buying the supplements because not everything out there is based on research or based on science and you know you know it's very well as I do you know a lot of our answers especially with all of our colleagues are based on science and it's really hard for me to recommend make recommendations if there's no science mmhm so and this is always yes it's kind of bothered me too because there's so much out there that doesn't have a lot of science behind it I mean I'm gonna ask you the question why are there so many things that that have never honestly even been tested a horse but I mean I go back to my other comment to great marketing because they're selling the product so why bother finding out if their product particularly works if they're already selling it because research is extremely expensive I mean I've done a lot of research for companies I've done it very cheaply compared to what it probably should have been done but yeah it's it's really hard for a company to spring you know hundreds of thousands of dollars on the supplement if in one day they are making you know a tenth of that maybe ten days to sell that much our product so it so I think that maybe it maybe we should reiterate that to say there are a lot of products we're not even talking about a few there are quite a lot of products that haven't found been tested in horse right and that that is true and and you know a classic example of a category a supplement category along those lines of the herbal products there are very few herbal supplements out there that have been actually tested in horses a lot of where the theory on the supplements come from is either human or small animal they'll look at the clinical trials and small animals or humans and they'll say Hey look what it did in humans so therefore let's add a little of this to this supplement and it's going to do the same and horses and there are no guidelines to say that that is illegal they can do that they can add yucca to a product and say it is going to help their horses joints because anti-inflammatory but yeah it's never been tested to show that that actually works in in the horses I will say however if you are looking for a research based product the companies that have done the research will let you know that either they have done it before they've had a university do it and that's where I've done some STIS are supplement studies for companies and they will use you know Carey Williams at Rutgers university has shown that block
but I always you know the follow the due diligence I guess if you're if you're on on that because I've even seen some companies that will allude to something that I happen to read the paper on and I was like ummm I don't think that's what it's
exactly exactly so it doesn't really daunting for the average horse owner to to weed through all of that yes if I can get out there I mean because it really can get pretty mind boggling
and that's another good reason to have a have a nutritionist in your pocket to be like Hey what do you think of this have you heard of anything and I will say I get those emails or calls on a fairly regular basis and I will say most of the time I I haven't heard of it or there is no research out there
what I do know is that if if you do look at the ingredients label and you see something that says proprietary blend study by blah blah but yet they don't follow up with that they don't tell you what is in that proprietary blend of they don't tell you what the study was like they don't take it any details of the study that should be your first red flag like I want to know what I'm feeding my horse I want to know what's in that act specially some of these herbal products there is a lot of toxic herbs out there and a lot of these herbal supplements have the minute St John's ward is a great one St. John's Wort is toxic and it does show up in a lot of the herbal products it just boggles my mind that people actually would be
so then maybe you can help us in explain this a little bit so some of the trials it maybe Hey it worked in it and a human what worked in our in a rat model why does that not mean that it just will automatically work in a horse or does it mean I think can go both ways so it's always a great place to start if you're doing a research model hate it did this in mice and but let me use one example because I did this as a graduate student I found lipoic acid and some of you out there might have heard up or know lipoic acid it is a very high potent antioxidant it's fat soluble and water soluble it is been used a lot in Europe in humans and has done I had a I had a lot of small animal or or they are testing so I found a lot of the theory in other animals to say okay here I presented it to my PhD advisor and I wanted to look at it in horses and I came up with a good enough case says yes let's do it did it in horses actually work it did everything however I needed
way more product in the supplements that I was feeding to my horses that anybody's pocketbook would actually want to pay for I mean it would cost hundreds of dollars per month for that supplement for that amount to be effective in your horse that is a great point because I've seen that too there's a lot of products it things that we know so I'm just throw biotin out right so we there's some papers out there that says biotin does help with hoof growth but you have to read the literature to know how much it takes and I'm you definitely find products that just say it's included and I think the owners like then then that's what I need when I exactly exactly that's is the same thing with joint products you know the glucosamine and chondroitin sulfate or needed at such high levels have a lot of companies put in trace amounts just so that they can add it to the bag or to say this includes blah and it's not near the amount needed to you're wasting your money on a product that's had the price increase because it's in there but not enough is in there and that that I think that's another another area where you know you need to find someone who knows what's in there or what they the horses actually need so that you can be the educated buyer and find a product that really has the amount that you need and more than likely it's going to be more expensive so that's another thing I always tell you get what you pay for with supplements you really do so why did they make it so hard so I mean honestly I think that's a problem for a lot of consumers is that ingredient list is is daunting and companies do just list of things sometimes as it as a marketing sales point but they but that doesn't tell you any information about how much of it is in there yeah and and if you do really read the labels closely for the most part you can find some of that like especially some of the active ingredients granted obviously unless they say proprietary so I think there's ways to find it it's tricky
so let's go back to looking at our horse again there's be a lot visible there's not going to be
a lot of readily available information unless you're working with a nutritionist on vitamins minerals etcetera there's all these other lists of things so how might I think my horse would benefit from a supplement or might need one given all of these categories
so I think starting off it you know it and I obviously I'm horse owner to so there's barn talk right you know you got your trainer you have your friends you have you know your Ferrier and and all these other people that are like Hey you should try this obviously I'm not gonna say don't listen them at all if yeah I do listen to them yet again don't don't put a blindfold on in going blind you know if you want to try a product great try it but to critically evaluate your horse and a lot of the supplements you can you can see what you have I mean I I we do joint supplements and you know it's the number one class of of supplements out there but if you're using it for a problem and it it you know let's go back to my old horse Mickey because why not right because I thought it well you know she's she's twenty four years old and she's got a little hitchy gate well they've tried some products and and the ladies rider now like I don't notice anything I don't notice anything and I was like well give it a month or or the container that you bought and then stop buying it like don't waste your money if you really feel like there should be a difference and there's not well we tried this one product okay weaker to close by and she goes back you gotta come rider because I don't this she feels amazing and you know she warms up so much quicker and and you know you one thing after another and she was happier and jumping and I'm like that's the proof you need to you know your horse well enough you should be able to see some signs of them getting better for whatever it is you know if there that is the call these calming aids you know you should be able to see something you know if they if you haven't seen that they're quieter on the calming aid then why bother and and with that I guess there is a whole lot of placebo effect right because doesn't think human owner come into play on this absolutely and like I said you know your horse you should be able to see it well maybe it stuff you want to see and you wanted to think that it's doing its job well Hey whatever works right
and believe me I don't own supplement company I get nothing from these companies so I you know I we say whatever makes you and your horse happy as long as it doesn't throw off the balance of the diet and I will say there are some supplements that could and I would be really careful especially some of these high vitamin a supplements the high magnesium supplements you know some of these mineral supplements that are just so high in some of these minerals I really get worried that when you start adding on even along with you know good quality forage enough high grain diet and then all these other supplements you're really starting to throw off the balance of the diet so you're probably doing more harm than good and again that's when you should work with a nutritionist yeah because it's Carey said that I mean there's so many mineral interactions that the average horse owner doesn't even realize that these things like talk to each other within the animal's body yeah absolutely so a lot of times people maybe looking for a supplement because their their horse maybe isn't winning or competing at the the level that they wanted to is this something the supplements can fix
at the million dollar question is it yeah and maybe I will the supplement
the answer to that one you know I think there's so many levels to that you know performance problems can start
anywhere you know I mean it they might be nutritionally related but they might be that there is an underlying veterinary problem in there somewhere you really need to pull in a vet as well on it you know working with your vet your nutritionist your trainer all those levels I think I'll help you come up with that but you know I think just like in that human weight loss market everybody wants that magic pill everybody wants that magic drug and yeah if if I came up with a supplement that said if you feed this to your horse to win the Triple Crown
and you were anti Belgian draft horse yeah okay my I would make a lot of money but I don't think there's that magic pill did you really do anything maybe if your horse as an underlying problem and it can be addressed by supplementation yes but but there's such a broad spectrum of problems that that could be the underlying cause I wouldn't start with the supplement I would start with getting your horse's health checked first right yeah because I think it it's easier to reach for something off the shelf rather than veterinary or training or the person themselves right because humans can get in the way of horses is performing a hello I mean you have saddle fit in bridle fit up I didn't even know that was a thing until my new horse yeah I love funny in is bridle was bothering them I mean you know there's so many other things and then just training and behavior conditions as well so there's an awful lot to look at
so ticket and we're not getting into specifics on this I will say that for some other time we'll talk some specific supplements but you definitely said that you know look for and if it could have some research behind it we definitely would prefer that yes they were should be it now is that right they should be more expensive so
they should be but don't don't look at your list of supplements to go this one you know a dollar cheaper days so let's get that one without looking at the level of the ingredients that are in it because the reason why it might be a dollar less days because it might have a tenth of the ingredients that are needed in it and then it's not doing anything so even if you're paying twenty cents versus a dollar twenty a day you're still wasting that twenty cents because it's not doing anything so so yes I did say you get what you pay for but depending on on the amounts that are in the supplement you might need to spend a little bit more to get the same benefit if that makes sense yeah so does it matter you know it again in you alluded to it it's a lot of this is it is marketing and that's their job and they have professionals that that help market these things
so do what do we now like if if it's used by a high level and three day eventer or show jumper that does that mean that it is more effective because it's used in fancier horses Hey
you would like to think right right the companies would like you to think that as well I'm not necessarily because they have different courses then you have they have a very very high level athletes Olympic level or or race level athletes you know I'm I'm training level dressage rider and my horses just going training level now doesn't need the same sort of things no if I the same sort of things do know win everything no I don't want way to go for any of that so so yeah a lot of these are endorsed by high level riders because they feel that works in their horses and they get a lot of the products of but it doesn't mean it necessarily is right for your horse
so any final thoughts about what horse owners should do when they get that magazine available choices a online and they see there is that one million hits for or whatever they search for you know just just don't don't have a trigger finger don't click on the first purchase button that you come to it ask around at your barn your trainer your vet your farrier you know ask around and then and then look into things spend the time and I know it time is money can't right you know we we all have that problem but just spend the time out at some things and and you know it might not be a bad idea if you do have a nutritionist or your extension specialist or even county specialist some of these guys do you have that sort of expertise reach out it doesn't it doesn't hurt and I think you're horse probably a pocketbook will be happier yeah I absolutely because that pocket but can get pretty lean on the supplement game absolutely well thank you so much Carey I think this is been a great introduction to the world of supplements and we're definitely going to have you back to get into the weeds on some of the particulars I'm looking forward to it all right Sir thank you so much and that has been our Tack Box Talk horse stories with the purpose