Tack Box Talk
Tack Box Talk
Ouch My Stomach Hurts: The Stories of Pinky and Pippa
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Dr. Carey Williams, Rutgers University and Dr. Krishona Martinson, University of Minnesota share their stories of horses with ulcers. They discuss how they knew their horses had ulcers, how they treated the ulcers and changed their management strategies to help their horses cope with what can be a very painful problem.
For More Horse Information: extensionhorses.org
This is Tacbox Talk, and this is Horse Stories with the Purpose. Who are we? We are Decoin educators, but we are owners. We are judges. We are competitors. We are coaches. We are volunteers. We are moments.
SPEAKER_01We are horse owners just like you. And we want to share our horse stories with a purpose. Welcome to Extension Horses Tack Box Talk Series Horse Stories with a Purpose. I'm Dr. Chris Heiney with Oklahoma State University, and with me today is Dr. Carrie Williams from Rutgers University. Hello! And Dr. Krishona Martinson from the University of Minnesota.
SPEAKER_02Hello.
SPEAKER_01And today they're going to be sharing their stories of Pinky, who you may remember from our Thin Horse podcast, and Pippa and their experiences with ulcers. So Carrie, um, could you tell us a little bit again about Pinky and how your story with ulcers with her started to develop?
SPEAKER_03Yeah. So Pinky's an off-the-track thoroughbred. Uh, she raced until she was five years old. I bought her about a year after she came off the track. So she wasn't fresh off the track, but um, you know, I I bought her after a little bit of training. Um, didn't have any issues with her the first year. She was great. She was, you know, really well behaved. We were uh doing some local shows, everything was really uh going really well. So um into the I guess the second season of showing, we were doing mostly Dersage shows, um, I decided I wanted to start to um look towards doing a year-end championship um or doing the regional championships. And I qualified and we were en route and going to go to the uh region one championships. So that was about eight-hour haul from me. Uh keep in mind, uh, I guess here in New Jersey, most of my shows are 30 minutes away. We're really lucky. I can show, uh, you know, I don't really have to go very far to do much showing. Didn't think anything of it, was, you know, headed to the show eight hours later, the day before competition, we get there, let her settle in, really big show venue, different than um than we had ever done that year. And, you know, a lot to look at. She seemed okay, you know, was kind of settling in, but I started noticing she wasn't eating her evening or morning grain meals. She was picking at her hay and eating her hay, but she was leaving all the grain behind. So I started worrying about, you know, colic and is she drinking enough? And I gave her some electrolytes and I started doing, you know, as much as I could. And then I, you know, I called my trainer, my trainer said, Oh, how's it going? I said, Oh, everything's good, but you know, Pinky's not really eating. And she goes, Well, you might want to run to a tech shop and get some uh get some ulcer guard. And I was like, Really? I it never occurred to me, because I've never had a horse with ulcers in my life. I've never it never occurred to me that that might be her problem. So I went and grabbed a uh tube uh ulcer guard and gave her the tube, and wouldn't you know it, the next morning she had cleaned up everything plus some and had a great appetite and everything was fine. Fast forward, I guess, uh another, you know, month or so. And you know, once I got home, she kind of continued with the really finicky, picky, not finishing her food, and that was new to me. She had not been like that the whole year and change that I owned her, and I really started to think I needed to do something more. Um, and I really needed to get down to the bottom of it.
SPEAKER_01Do you think then that that that trip to that regional show and the eight-hour trailer ride that was a big enough deal for her that really kind of set her off? Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I mean that there was really nothing else that I had done in the year and change that I owned her up to that point that was anything remotely like that. Like I said, I mean our our shows were really close, very small venues. You know, even though I was doing recognized shows, they were very low stress. And this between the, you know, the eight-hour trip and the venue being massive, six, seven hundred horses there, uh, you know, new barn, multiple days. We were there for, you know, four or five days. You know, the different rings and and the announcer and the loudspeakers going all the time. I, you know, she is, granted, off the track. So I assumed she's been to races, she's fine. She's been traveling a lot. But, you know, one of the reasons she retired, she retired sound, but um they retired her because she I I think the stress of of the racing got to her. She just basically shut down and stopped running. So I have a feeling that was uh a lot of the reasons why. And she probably had ulcers while she was racing. Um, it was just once she got turned down for the year before I bought her, um, everything kind of went away and then resurfaced during this big show event.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting that there can be that much mental stress with that kind of environment for her. And and then hopefully, you know, I'd like to say we can rule out that you were that bad of a driver.
SPEAKER_03Well, let me say my husband met with me and he drove.
SPEAKER_01So it wouldn't have been me. So, Krishna, tell us a little bit about uh Pippa then and how you got started with ulcers with Pippa.
SPEAKER_02Sure. So Pippa is actually my daughter's speed event horse. Um, we purchased Pippa after her pony died of colic. So Pippa had big shoes to fill. And a lot like uh Dr. Williams, Pippa started out her first show season. Um, my daughter was just getting to know her. Um, Pippa did not know all of the patterned events, so it was mostly kind of an easy lope trot. Um, but as we started stepping up her training and she became patterned and we were asking for more speed, it was very evident that Pippa's personality, she was a very nervous horse. You know, we had ruled out, you know, we went, I think it's just her personality. We had ruled out does she have back pain, does she need chiropractic? There's no lamenesses. She was a young horse. Um, I think when we bought Pippa, she was maybe only six. So she really had no reason. But if you ever just looked at a horse and they're just kind of a higher strung, more of a nervous personality, like she was always kind of up on the bit, and she loved to run. And Pippa got to the point where I thought some of her behaviors were getting dangerous, especially for a child. Uh, and Pippa is a very, very sweet horse, but I think she had pain, and you could tell when you brushed her, when you saddled her, when you went to get on her. So my veterinarian comes out and does my annual spring vaccines, Coggins, the whole work. And he goes, You know, Pippa has that personality where she could just be an ulcer horse. And I thought, you know, I should know that. So we put her on um two weeks of uh of a uh an ulcer medication, and it was night and day, sort of like what Dr. Williams described. She went from not being able to be brushed on her sides, you could now brush her, you could now saddle her without issues. She was oh she is still a little bit more of a nervous horse, but I think that is just her demeanor, her personality. But um, now during the show season, which our associates in, we usually start in April and go through November. She is on a daily dose of an of an ulcer um medication. And if you take her off of it, you will see you, you will see a bad reaction, let's put it that way. So I I do I do feel badly that I didn't recognize it early enough, but I think some of her nervousness was pain related from the ulcers. Um, Pippa is never box stalled, she's on 24-7 turnout. She has a round bale, it is grass hay, not alfalfa. So I didn't think that my management scheme warranted a horse with ulcers, but I think we underestimate that some horses are just very nervous, and maybe their personality or their demeanor predisposes them to being more you know susceptible to ulcers.
SPEAKER_01Right. So it sounds, you know, from both Pippa and Pinky, you guys were doing the best you can on their care, but but recognizing individual horse personalities and what they like, dislike, or looking for those changes that maybe those subtle changes are really important for owners to understand.
SPEAKER_03Pinky, she is a very sensitive horse and always was when I had her, you know, just just very sensitive and very reactive. But, you know, just attributing that to being not just the way she is, you know, she's thoroughbred, thoroughbred mare, you know, freshly off the track. Uh, you know, there was some of those things that I just, you know, was accepting. What I didn't accept was you went from uh, you know, having everyone comment on the barn what an amazing appetite she had. I mean, she would clean up everything and and really was a good eating horse. And then all of a sudden stops eating and pretty much after that show was really picky with grain, any sort of grain. We tried different types of grains and you know, we tried a little bit of everything and just went from being a really good eater to not. And and that was the big thing to me that that said, all right, I I need to get this figured out. And the good thing was um I actually have pinky insured. And uh when I talked with my vet about what to do, she said, Well, you know, ulcers are one thing that insurance will pay for. They'll pay for the scoping and they'll pay for the medication to get it cleared up, and then they'll pay for a follow-up scoping. So I actually went ahead and did just that. We had her uh gastroscoped. Um, we found grade three ulcers, so we knew that that was definitely her problem. And then we started her on a regimen. It took us 30 days with a tube of uh gastrogard every day, along with twice a day um sacral fate. Because what the sacral fate does is it actually adheres to the ulcers and it aids in their healing, where the gastrogard actually shuts down some of the acid pumps, so it'll decrease the acidity of stomach. So the combination of the two works really well. So then 30 days later, um, we scoped her again and her stomach was perfectly clean. We didn't find a single ulcer in there. Um, so I was lucky that it only took 30 days. Some horses they say takes uh, you know, 60 days. I've even had some friends that are are on 90 days, but now I am very, very careful. Um, my barn doesn't have a whole lot of turnout, unfortunately. So she stayed on a regimen of sacral fate, um, especially when I ride. But then when I show, I also give some of the ulcer guard, which is the daily ameprosol product that you can give. I don't have her on it daily, um, but I do have her on it during shows because I don't want to start it over again. I don't want that problem. And since she's been clean, she has, you know, she's still, Dr. Martinson, like you said, she's still a very reactive horse. That's just her. She's very sensitive. That hasn't changed, but she is a very good eater again. You know, her her conditions come back up. Um, she's not, you know, as ribby and she's not as sensitive to touch. So she did go through a little bit of uh, you know, girthy and sensitive. It wasn't terrible. Um, but you know, that definitely has gotten better as as well. So I I'm very cautious to always have hay in front of her. I'm I'm trying to get her as much turnout as as the barn will allow. You know, in the summers we at least can do some night turnout, so they're they're out a little more often. I I am very, very careful to manage it now so that they don't come back.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha. So you said Pinky was insured, and so they took care of essentially all of the diagnostics and the treatment. Um what what is it now? Like what can I ask what it costs you guys to kind of handle and manage the ulcers with your horses?
SPEAKER_03Well, for Pinky, um, when she's inside, um, like in in the summer, and like I said, we don't have a whole lot of turnout. In the summer, she or in the winter, I'm sorry, she gets four hours a day turnout. So I have her on um the sacral fate uh twice a day, AMM PM, and another ulcer product scientifically proven because you know that that's what we do. So probably in total, it's about$200 of sacral fate a month and about sixty dollars uh for the supplement a month. If I had her on turnout and she was able to be on grass full time, I could probably eliminate one or the other. Um, depending on, you know, her appetite and how she looks, I would have to make that decision based on that. But it it's not cheap. Um, I know my insurance paid for probably, I think it was fifteen hundred dollars worth of medication during that time, and then each scoping is about six hundred dollars. Keep in mind those are all New Jersey prices. But the only problem is now if they come back, they won't pay anymore. So that's why, you know, they any insurance company now has that exclusion, so ulcers are excluded now. So that's why I am very, very careful that they don't come back because I don't want to go through all that all over again to get rid of them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so with um with PIPA, um, we we never did the scoping because we saw such a dramatic change. We just assumed that that was the case. In hindsight, we also changed some bits, we made sure the saddle fit, like we did some other things as well, but I definitely think it was um the ulcers. Pippa is on a daily omeprazole product. I don't know what it honestly costs because for me at this point it doesn't matter. I either have an unrideable horse if she's not on the medication or a high performance horse when she is. But I want to say a container is several hundred dollars, and we maybe go through a few containers during the show season. Now, during the winter months, when Pippa isn't under that pressure, um, you know, being in Minnesota, I do not have an indoor facility to ride in. Oh, I mean, I could trail her, but not at my home where I keep my horses. Um the horses kind of have the winter off, and so my mind, there is no reason to maintain her on the ulcer medications because, in theory, she has 24-7 turnout, she has hay in front of her, she's not being asked for form, so the stress should be low. And then about a month before we start showing, we do put her back on the Omeprazole product to help her with her ulcers. To me, I mean, I'm sure it's fairly similar to what Dr. Williams has, maybe a tad bit less, just because of my ability to manage my horses at my house being at a boarding facility. And I think there's probably a tad bit of price difference between New Jersey and Minnesota. But in my mind, it's worth every penny because we go from having an unrideable horse, in my opinion, to a good performance horse.
SPEAKER_01So, Kieran, Chris, I'm gonna maybe ask you a hard question now. So it it seems that the the lifestyle, perhaps, that you've chosen for those horses doesn't always agree with their system. Have you ever thought or would you ever counsel somebody to seek a different uh career for that horse or uh re-home, find a different horse? That is a difficult question.
SPEAKER_03Um, and I had actually thought a lot about this um, you know, with my horse, and maybe not to the extent of, you know, stopping showing, but to relocate and and find a barn, find turnout. You know, she would do best if she had, you know, as much turnout as possible, if it could be even more than a half day, um, and on grass where she could eat 24-7. Because I mean that's the big thing, just keeping food in their stomachs at all time. Um, and and you know, having pasture, I think there's it's priceless, really. Um, so uh to me, that would be the biggest recommendation if someone was really, really struggling with it. You know, you have to take a hard look at the housing management. And yeah, Chris, uh Christiana, I think you're you're really lucky that you're able to manage your horses that way. Because, you know, I think every day, is it gonna would it be worth me buying a farm and then being able to uh you know have some pasture where she can be out? That's always been a thought in my head.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I I I also agree that I am fortunate that I'm able to manage my horses at my property, but there's still some limitations. So I think as academics, we always say, okay, here are the best recommendations. You feed some alfalfa hay, you know, for that buffering capacity, you have maximum turnout hay in front of them all the time. Um, and the the list goes on and on. But the reality is we have constraints because I'm feeding a group of four horses that are all performance horses, I feed them a round bale. And I'm very fortunate that my horses are very easy keepers. And if I fed them an L for round bale, they would become so morbidly obese, even with extensive riding, that I could not ride off those extra calories. So, you know, they have free choice grass hay. Is that perfect for Pippa? No, but it's perfect for the other horses that she's housed with. So there is that give and take between an academic, you know, recommendation and a reality, but I think that's what makes all of us really good at our jobs is that we are academics, but we are also horse owners. So we can, I mean, we we we get it that we can't always do exactly what the book says because there are limitations in every single situation. You know, I have five horses and I have three acres of pasture, so my horses' pasture is a treat, right? They're not housed on the pasture during our short summer months in Minnesota. So, but they're always in a large dry lot. So, you know, it is what it is. Um, we we do the best for Pippa, we give her the medications, she seems happy, she performs well, she eats, you know, and now my daughter loves this horse, so this horse is not going anywhere like ever. Um, and you know, I don't even know, you know, I think Dr. Heine, your question is a good one. Would Pippa be better suited in a less stressful environment? But I think even if somebody were to trail ride Pippa, she is just a more reactive, a more sensitive, a more energetic, a more nervous horse. And I think even on a trail, she would exhibit some of those personality traits. So I'm not sure, even if you were trail riding Pippa with no expectations to perform, you know, quick, fast, pattern maneuvers, you'd probably still have to have her on some type of ulcer medicine just to make her, you know, a joy to ride on the trail. So I think it's a management scheme, and we do the best that we can.
SPEAKER_01Well, I think that's it's great advice. And um, you know, maybe the big message that I'm taking away from this is we we do have to do things to accommodate the different personalities of our horses and to to not discount any of these changes in behavior or personality, that there may be a physical reason why our horses act the way that we do, and sometimes we don't give them credit for that. So, um, any, I guess maybe some broad tips you guys going forward? What what other specific things you might tell owners to to look at? I know we talked a lot about, you know, the more time they get to relax and keep chewing and having food in front of them is helpful for them. But any other um tips or tricks that you would suggest owners try to do for their horses to either prevent, stave off ulcers, or to maybe help down, help calm down that um more nervous personality.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, Dr. Heine, actually, there's one thing that I think is really important to mention that you know, I we kind of just glazed over, but it's the number of ulcer prevention slash treatment supplements that are on the market. It is mind-boggling. And I get asked as an equine nutritionist every day pretty much what my recommendations are. Um, and you know, that could be a whole nother podcast, but really uh I just try to educate owners to be an educated buyer. Look for the research that's out there because there are a lot of things that are not research proven that your neighbor might go, oh yeah, try it. It's great. Um, but you know, really it it it might not work for every horse, and unless it has some research behind it, um, I wouldn't bother wasting your money. You know, there are there there's um Louisiana State University has done a lot of research on some of these ulcer medications and ulcer supplements. And any company that has these products will tell you the research that has been done. So I I think owners really need to be vigilant um and be educated buyers when they're looking into these products.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and I think uh Dr. Williams has great advice. And like you said, Dr. Heine, I I would not discount changes in behavior because even though both Dr. Williams and I knew better, ulcers wasn't the first thing that we thought of. We thought it was something else. So I think you need to really watch for those small changes in a horse that is otherwise fairly consistent and fairly healthy. You know, I I can't echo enough the importance that Dr. Williams mentioned about just reading and educating yourself. So as an academic, I also go to a lot of conferences and I'd been watching a there was a feed company that was have spent the last six years developing a um supplement that you feed prior to riding your horse or having them perform that kind of drops um. The pH in their stomach just momentarily so that when you work them, you don't have that splashing of that acidic stomach content in their stomach. And you know, it was 40 bucks for a bag, and I thought, well, it's feeding one horse, let's try it. And we have noticed some visual differences also, just further helping Pippa. And again, that was a research-based product that I had been keeping my eye on and thought, you know, might as well try it. And so far it works, and that bag will last her a long time, you know, it will last her quite some time. Pay attention, keep reading, and you know, just do the best you can within the circumstance that you're given for that horse.
SPEAKER_01All right. Well, thanks again, Carrie and Krishna, and sharing uh your experience with ulcers with uh Pippa and Pinky. And I hope everyone has enjoyed our horse stories with a purpose.