Chiropractors:The story of pushing and pulling to make your horse feel great

Dr. Madelyn Melchiors, DVM and certified chiropractor, and Dr Betsy Greene, equine extension specialist, explain what horses may benefit from a chiropractor. We also discuss what certification your chiropractor should have, and how to tell if your horse is getting better.

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Kris Hiney: Welcome to extension horses, tack, box, talk series horse stories with a purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney with Oklahoma State University. And today we're going to be talking about chiropractic care for horses. So kind of a good follow up to our last Podcast where we were talking about Haynets and their effect on horses that was evaluated by a chiropractor. So what better to do than talk to an actual veterinary chiropractor so welcome to the show. 1st time, Guest.

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Kris Hiney: Dr. Madeline Melcher. So welcome, Madeline.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Welcome. It's nice to be here today.

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Kris Hiney: And we also have a returning guest, Dr. Betsy Green, from Arizona, and she is going to offer up our horse for the story of talking about her horse, Roper and his journey with chiropractic care. So welcome back to the program, Betsy.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Thank you. Great to be here.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. So maybe we should get started with even saying what a veterinary chiropractor is, because there's a lot of different routes, I guess, and maybe just for listeners, if they're choosing a chiropractor, is it a veterinarian? Is it a chiropractor that went to human school like? What should they be looking for. If you're going to choose a chiropractor for your horse.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, that's  a great question. And honestly, I had the same questions when I became a veterinarian and wanted to get more education so that I could get this chiropractic skill set.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so what I learned is that there are a few different colleges in the United States that offer a certificate. It's usually a 200 to 250 h program that either a Dvm. Which is a veterinarian or a DC. Which is a human chiropractor that can attend.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And at that program they learn animals in specific, because animals are not the same as humans. As we know, they stand on 4 legs, and so gravity pulls on their bodies differently. And so I attended a program just like that alongside with other veterinarians and other Dcs. And we got our certificate at the end of the very lengthy learning.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Then, after that, you can actually opt to go through a certification process. And there's 2 different groups that certify chiropractors. It's going to be the Avca or the Ivca, which is basically a certification program.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so you technically could be a veterinarian or a DC. And you could go out and start adjusting animals and advertising yourself. But as an animal owner I want somebody that's educated that I know that they've gone through all that they can

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Madelyn Melchiors: to learn what you need to do to keep an animal safe and not hurt them

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Madelyn Melchiors: so as an animal owner, I want to make sure that the person touching my horse or my dog

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Madelyn Melchiors: I want to make sure that they've gone through a class through a college and maintain that certification, because you do have to go through continuing education.

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Kris Hiney: So let me maybe ask this question. Is it

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Kris Hiney: possible? Then there are veterinarians that are chiropracticing that haven't gone through all of this training.

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Madelyn Melchiors: It is, it is potential. Yeah, you could have a veterinarian that's out there adjusting. But they don't teach you how to adjust animals in vet school, so I would have to say that at least out in the real world I more commonly see human chiropractors that are starting to work on animals on the side, or they're doing animals full time, and they've never achieved.

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Madelyn Melchiors: They've never gone to learn about animals in a continuing education sort of way. So that's why I want our horse owners to just be aware that there's a whole variety of options that are out there.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so and then, theoretically, if they have a website or something, they should have

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Kris Hiney: this listed that they are a such and such certificate holder.

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Madelyn Melchiors: They should. And the last thing to realize is that you know you're in Oklahoma. I'm in Arizona. We might have listeners elsewhere. Each State has a different law or rule on. If a chiropractor, a DC. Is allowed to touch an animal with veterinary consent or veterinary supervision versus, they just strike out on their own with no vet involved.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so, as an animal owner you, you're probably not going to ever come into any harm. But just be aware that there's different laws out there per state. So your animal chiropractor might say, Hey, I need a letter from your vet before I see your horse, and don't be alarmed if you hear that.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, all right. Well, I'm gonna jump to Dr. Green now. So tell us a little bit about Roper, and why you maybe thought, hey? Maybe I need to have somebody come visit with him.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Well, from his name, I'm guessing you might be able to guess his former life before I got him.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: I got him in 20

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: 15,

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: and when I came to Arizona, in fact, my friend went out and found him for me, and he's a roany pony that was a roper, a team Roper, and he's now like 22, and he's, you know, he's had the wear and tear that that competing team ropers have. I mean, that's a lot of

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: weight, especially if they're a header when you're roping a steer and then wrapping around the saddle horn, taking a sharp left, so your heeler can get in there. That's a lot of pressure and weight. And so.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: you know, he's he warms up. He's a little stiff at times, but warms up and out of things, and you know he's had had even a little bit of string halt when he at times when he's warming up and moving around. So I thought, you know, I've worked with Dr. Melcher several times across the State, doing a lot of work on the tribes up north where she's from.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: And so I thought, you know, she was coming down to visit, and she said, Hey, I'm going to be doing some chiropractic stuff, I said. You know what. Let's see what the old boy feels like.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so it wasn't any like sudden deterioration or performance or crankiness, or kinda just more like a little stiff these days, and and takes longer to warm up. So let's see.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: It was an opportunity. And I thought, You know, let's see what see what shows up when she comes down here, because I know, because I had confidence and in her knowledge and ability. And she was there. I said, Why not?

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Kris Hiney: So, Dr. Melcher, what? What typically do owners do they come to you with like, Hey, I've got something going on, or do a lot of owners just kind of incorporate chiropractic care as routine these days.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I definitely see both. And I have demand from a lot of different groups. And so, for example, a large population of horses that I work on are going to be your beloved trail horses, your beloved pet horses, that it's the 1 1 and only horse that somebody owns

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Madelyn Melchiors: but then you also have your performance horses that you know. Maybe they just don't take that 1st barrel like they used to, or maybe they're cross firing when they're cantering. And so they want a specific problem fixed versus, you know, someone like Betsy that says, You know, I love my horse, and I want to optimize how he feels. So let's let's come in and see if we can make him move a little bit better and make him feel a little bit smoother.

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Kris Hiney: Okay? So I have to ask. So you know, probably a lot of listeners have been to a human chiropractor. So the old bone crackers right? And so it has always seemed to me like man. It's a lot easier to yank a person around, you know, than a 1,100 pound horse. So how are you like? How are veterinary chiropractors manipulating these

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Kris Hiney: giant creatures? And is it the same as like that? Work like when you do it with a person so.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, that's a super common question. And one thing I do like to tell people is that a lot of times if you see animals on Tiktok getting kind of cracked around. That's usually a little more dramatic than kind of how I was taught how to do chiropractic, but

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Madelyn Melchiors: you can very easily move every joint in your horse's body if you think about it, if you place your hand on their neck, and then you gently push on the side of their neck. They're going to actually move their neck away from you, and you just moved that animal's joint.

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Madelyn Melchiors: You didn't have to sweat. You didn't have to hulk and use your biceps real hard. Same thing with chiropractic is that we're actually going to use physiology in our advantage to adjust these horses, and sometimes that means I stand on scary blue bales

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Madelyn Melchiors: to elevate my body so I can lean down over on top of them.

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Madelyn Melchiors: But it's surprising how little force you actually have to use.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: I gotta say I was kind of surprised on that, because, having seen the Tiktok, human and animal things, and it just looks like they're wrenching their neck off, or or dislocating their hips, or something like that.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: And of course, then the the animal looks back in surprise. You know there were, there was just a lot of okay, let's take a feel for this. And then, even having okay, if

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: if you hold this side, I'm going to put your hands here, and it was just a very minor move, but you could see, and you could see the horse respond to it, too. It was cool.

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Kris Hiney: So curious. What did you find? Or maybe you don't have your notes? You don't remember. But what did you find when you took a look at Roper.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Oh, I I got my notes here because I knew we should be talking about that handsome gelding

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Madelyn Melchiors: so I'd like to take a step back here, and just kind of let me just help our listeners understand what a chiropractic exam kind of looks like. I don't just jump in there and start pushing on his joints. What I like to do is I like to talk to the owner 1st and find out more about the horse, and then

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Madelyn Melchiors: what I really like to do is watch them walk.

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Madelyn Melchiors: because, believe it or not, watching your horse walk around, can really clue you in on what's going on with their body. And so, after I watched Roper walk around, I discovered that he kind of drags his hind feet a little bit. He just doesn't engage his hindquarters. So I'm already going to start thinking. Hmm! I wonder how his lower lumbar spine is going to feel? How's his pelvis and his sacrum going to feel, but also an old rope horse having some hock arthritis or some stifle arthritis is not unusual.

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Madelyn Melchiors: so I kind of get some clues, and then I'm going to use my hands to feel his skin, his muscles, and then his joints.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so I did kind of feel that he's just not using his hamstrings and his gluteal muscles properly.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so that's where we decided to start adjusting him. But I'm going to feel every joint in his body, no matter how he looks.

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Madelyn Melchiors: So let's see, I think. Here.

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Madelyn Melchiors: let's see, Betsy, you had said something about how sometimes he likes to back up against a hard surface. Was that correct.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Oh, yeah, Wendy was actually saying, he'll actually sit back and kinda kind of like he's leaning on the stall wall or something.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah. So I I take a little bit of that history, and it kind of points me to a direction. But I try to not let it completely cloud my judgment.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so, when I felt his hips, after standing on these tall bales, I would lean down and push on his coxofemoral, or his sorry, his tuber cocci, and his tuber sacrali, which are some bumps or some prominences on his hindquarters.

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Madelyn Melchiors: and I would push down on it, and I was like, Oh.

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Madelyn Melchiors: this doesn't move. It's stiff. It's like a rusty hinge. And I said, Yeah, we need to adjust that area. Then.

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Madelyn Melchiors: So then I would perform a chiropractic adjustment.

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Madelyn Melchiors: which is a quick, short thrust in the plane of that joint.

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Madelyn Melchiors: and that's what we did to adjust that joint, and then I'd move my way along to his spine, and he had a stiff old horse spine. So I adjusted some areas and we just kind of worked our way up that spine to get all the way to the front end.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: So could you see Dr. Green, how is Roper approaching this whole process.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Well, I mean, he actually really didn't blink twice at her giant

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: blocks, you know that for standing on standing over him and such and so that was great. He's pretty, he's pretty chill. And then, after, when she'd make an adjustment, you know, he might give a little like Ouch! But then he, whether well, her friend was actually holding his head because I was doing some videoing and stuff, of course.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: and are taking some pictures as well, and she's like, Oh, he's chewing, he's licking his lips and all that, and he did. He would. He would do that. She was very excited. It was kind of funny.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, some horses. They're very suspicious. The 1st time you do chiropractic adjustments on them. Because what the heck are these people doing, you know why is that human standing at a weird spot or bending me in a certain way, I find that usually by a second or 3rd chiropractic adjustment the horses really.

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Madelyn Melchiors: really relax and really get into a rhythm and understand what's happening. And if you've ever had chiropractic, you usually understand that you start to feel, feel pretty good afterwards. And so horses start to anticipate that. Feel good moment, too.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: So at this point in time, how much chiropractic work has Roper had.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: I would guess he had none before this visit.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so and what is this total? Now.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: One cause she was just down here not that long ago. So

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: so yeah. And you know, like, I said, he's 22, and he's just kind of as much, my pretty pony, because, as you know, you end up riding your computer in your car or vehicle more often than your horses when you're working in extension, especially the state specialist.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Well, and I was also telling Betsy a lot of my beloved pasture pet horses or ones that aren't ridden hard. They benefit from usually twice a year chiropractic adjustment.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so my recommendation for him was a follow up 6 months after his initial adjustment. Unless I had identified an area that really had me concerned or worried, or if Betsy said, you know, he fell down, you know he's running, and he fell, and he hurt himself, and I found an area that seemed like it needed more attention then I might have returned a month or 2 later, but for Roper. We'll see him again here in the spring.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah. And he had some some stiffness up in his withers that was pretty cool to see, you know, with very little movement, and you know not like the guy standing on the table jerking their neck out of the top of their shoulders, that you see on Tiktok. But he it was very. It was very cool to see. Okay, we're going to individual, you know.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: vertebrae and such. And it doesn't have to be a vicious, violent move, but yet you could see the change. You could feel it, and he could see him, and then, of course, her her Madeleine's friend, saying, hey, look! He's happy. It was actually kind of fun seeing that. And then I think he had some stuff up in his cervical area as well.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, I love the cervical vertebrae. They're so fun. So yeah, we adjusted a couple of different areas in his cervical vertebrae. And there's a couple of maneuvers where you hug the horse's neck to adjust their c 1, which is the 1st cervical, the Atlas

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Madelyn Melchiors: and C 2 your axis.

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Madelyn Melchiors: There's actually some people that focus more on c 1 and C 2, and then your Lumbosacral Junction at the hindquarters area. Some people, they'll just focus on those 2 areas. And they feel like once you help balance the front and the back. Everything in between will straighten itself out.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And that's a concept in the human world, too. So I really make sure that I pay close attention to the front, but it takes a lot of trust for a horse to let you grab them around the neck and squeeze them in the right direction. But he did. He did real good. He's a he's a good old boy. I see why you keep him around.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah. And it was funny, too, Chris, because, you know, we have typical of us. We're like, okay, trying to explain stuff to our clientele. And so the location of the cervical vertebrae as she was going through, and feeling we actually put some tape on Roper's neck to show how big they are and how that they're lower than most people think. You know. Most people think they go right under the mane

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: and not down in the curve that they make. So we had some fun playing with that for educational stuff, too, while we were getting my horse all nice and comfy, and aligned.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: So you said that for kind of these maybe more maintenance horses or light work horses, maybe only twice a year is necessary. If somebody has more of a performance horse, is it recommended that they do that more often, and then I guess I have a follow up question, and whether you want to tackle them one at a time. So what would be the owner straight, you know, if they were picking between like chiropractic or massage care right what? Which is the

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Kris Hiney: better option.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Oh, I love those questions. I sure do so. Some of my high maintenance horses I do try to adjust every 4 to 6 weeks, and that is definitely not wrong.

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Madelyn Melchiors: There is rarely going to be a reason why you should adjust a horse more frequently than 2 weeks.

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Madelyn Melchiors: and that's just part of their physiology. They're a quadruped, the way that they're

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Madelyn Melchiors: body moves and works. You shouldn't need to adjust them more frequently.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so

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Madelyn Melchiors: what was your second question.

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Kris Hiney: Choosing right between chiropractor and massage care right? So there's a.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Massage.

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Kris Hiney: Modalities, massage, care, acupuncture which we haven't talked about like.

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Kris Hiney: And we're gonna be realistic here for owners. They can't all go broke right. So like.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I don't know.

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Kris Hiney: Which thing is, is the better option to do.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I think. I think the best. The best option for your horse is going to be who is going to be the most

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Madelyn Melchiors: experienced and

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Madelyn Melchiors: knowledgeable

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Madelyn Melchiors: for your horse, because I think that a very knowledgeable and capable massage therapist can cause some wonderful things for your horse's body.

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Madelyn Melchiors: A very knowledgeable chiropractor that's performing adjustments in a very precise manner is going to be very effective with your horse.

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Madelyn Melchiors: If you are

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Madelyn Melchiors: a chiropractor, and you don't specifically know what you're doing or you're doing things improperly. The worst that's going to happen is that that chiropractor is just stretching those joints, and you get a benefit for one to 3 days, and then your horse is back to normal.

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Madelyn Melchiors: You're not hurting your horse, but you want to make sure that your chiropractor is performing a proper adjustment, and that's going to hold weeks and weeks and weeks

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Madelyn Melchiors: versus a massage therapist. If they're very skilled, they're going to find those very specific tight bands of muscle and trigger points and areas that are causing a lot of pain and discomfort. And they're going to work really hard to relieve those areas, and that horse may have benefits for weeks and weeks versus a massage therapist that doesn't identify those problem areas properly. Your horse has a nice relaxing massage, but they might still have some pain.

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Madelyn Melchiors: The best answer is, do them both, but you know.

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Kris Hiney: How can you tell? Right so? And I'll be honest. I so my horses haven't had. But my dogs get car parked and get massage care. And how do you know who is doing a good job, and who is just giving them a nice little

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Kris Hiney: fluffer? Rub.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Well, I do want to say, no matter what your animal is going to get a benefit from both, no matter what part of it depends on that animal's goals and what's going on with them. So Roper, for example, I don't know if he would have gotten a good benefit from massage. Only

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Madelyn Melchiors: I think that he would have gotten a bigger benefit of chiropractic because chiropractic is focusing on

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Madelyn Melchiors: the nerves and the muscles and the skeleton

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Madelyn Melchiors: neuromusculoskeletal system.

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Madelyn Melchiors: My best default, which I'm a little jaded here is, ask your vet

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Madelyn Melchiors: say.

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Madelyn Melchiors: hey, Dr. M. You know I think my horse needs some chiropractic or some massage. What do you think would be better for him? Since you know what his physical problems are?

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Madelyn Melchiors: So you know. My, it's my favorite default. Ask your vet they might be able to tell you like oh, well, he got that that stifle injury. So I actually think massage on his gluteals is going to be a little bit better right now versus Holy Moly. He fell down in the pasture during that snowstorm. You better get the chiropractor 1st and worry about the massage later. Okay.

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Kris Hiney: But then you still wouldn't know right? So if I'm an owner and just watching right, you can't see by observation whether it was effective or not.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, that's true. You should be able to see some sort of improvement. If it was worth your money, you should be able to see some improvement, but you might not know what to look for. So that's where I like to ask my chiropractor, or I might ask my massage, animal massage therapist.

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Madelyn Melchiors: hey? What are some ways that I can tell that my dog is better, or my horse is better so, for example, does he PIN his ears when I put on the saddle, and now he doesn't PIN his ears anymore.

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Madelyn Melchiors: or when I'm asking him to take that 1st barrel, he used to hesitate before we would slow down, and now he just sinks his hindquarters into the ground and turns faster. You got to figure out, what can you measure? And sometimes that's a really hard question.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I don't know. What about you, Betsy? What is there any anything that we discussed when we looked at Roper that I do feel like we talked about some tangible benefits. Do you remember what those were.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Well, I I mean, I think it was clear that he was. He was responding to the adjustments, for one thing, but then also it was interesting to me that you and and it's not that it surprised me, but I hadn't heard it from anyone else. It's like, Okay, well, make sure that you give him some time to get used to his new adjustment, and you know, don't. Don't just hop on and go gallop away. Give him some time, so that you don't undo what we did

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: or just, he might not be used to feeling in balance again when he's been out of balance for

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: so long as well. And then you also were talking about some stretches and things like that to help him maintain and or improve some of the things that you had done as well.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Is that what you're referring to, or.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, I think so. I just had another. I remembered another moment when we adjusted Roper. Is that we talked about how he liked to back up against those hard surfaces. So if I was going to say, Hey is is Dr. Madeline's chiropractic helping Roper, or is the massage therapy? He just received helping him out. I would

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Madelyn Melchiors: want to improve his backing up against a hard surface, because how many horses do that on a regular basis? Not many.

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Madelyn Melchiors: not many, that I've met.

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Kris Hiney: That's weird.

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Madelyn Melchiors: So if I was gonna say, Hey.

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Madelyn Melchiors: did this Dr. Madeline fix him up with her? Chiropractic or not, I would want to see an improvement in his backing up against a hard surface. You know. What is, what is our goal here to fix? You know it's are we trying to help him feel better. Well, guess what he's backing up against these hard surfaces being kind of funky. Let's see if one of these options

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Madelyn Melchiors: lowers the amount of times. I see him doing weird stuff.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah. Yeah. And I can't tell you if he stopped backing up against hard surfaces. But you know he's still happy as can be

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: got. It.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Get you out of your office so you can stare.

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Kris Hiney: It sounds like he has a pretty easy life, not gonna lie.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: He does. He's more like my pretty pony right now, and he's like, yes, you can come, groom me, that's fine.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: That's.

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Kris Hiney: Good. That's part of the.

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Madelyn Melchiors: That also made me remember something else that I didn't realize until I went to my chiropractic education. But we're affecting the nervous system in a major way, I got acupuncture training prior to getting chiropractic training.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And we talk about nerves and acupuncture, because obviously that's a major player. But

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Madelyn Melchiors: I didn't quite appreciate

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Madelyn Melchiors: how much we demand of our horses. And when you're doing a chiropractic adjustment, you're also changing their proprioception

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Madelyn Melchiors: proprioception is where they how your horse can tell where their hoof is in space, and so a horse that has an abnormal proprioception would be a horse that's stumbling around a little bit. He doesn't know where his legs are. He crosses his legs over in weird moments.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Chiropractic adjustments can make them feel a little funky proprioception wise for 12 to 24 h. So that's why I usually do not recommend doing a chiropractic adjustment at a show or at a race

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Madelyn Melchiors: is if that horse were to trip and stumble and pull a tendon or hurt itself. Then I wouldn't feel very warm and comfortable about that. The only time that there's going to be an exception is, say, your animal's regular chiropractic

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Madelyn Melchiors: provider is at that show, and you and the chiropractor know how your horse responds to adjustments, and that's fine, but I usually don't recommend our horses go romping around for 24 h, just because they have to kind of get used to their new legs.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Gotcha.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah. And and we were talking about some some myth, Buster kind of things, because I know that you like you said when you get on, Tiktok. You can see everything and what's real and what's not real. I was trying to remember some of those things that we had talked about

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: for mythbusters.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Oh, yeah, I I love when people ask me if I'm going to straighten their spine out. And I would love to have a nice

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Madelyn Melchiors: symmetrical spine, but I will say sometimes animals are born with bones that are not perfectly shaped or not perfectly symmetrical, or when that horse was younger, they had trauma that caused their pelvis to be slightly twisted. And so one myth, Buster, is that your chiropractor is not going to be able to put a bone back in place.

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Madelyn Melchiors: What we're doing is we're helping the joints move better. But I'm not going to put that vertebrae physically in a different location. That's what surgeons do.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: But you're just essentially increasing the range of motion of that joint you're not like. And then this rib will go over here.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, yeah, I don't translocate ribs from one spot to the other.

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Madelyn Melchiors: one myth, Buster, is that?

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Madelyn Melchiors: Oh, my horse's rib is always out all the time. Well, it's still in the right zip code. It still exists in the right spot there. But all your ribs tie up to your thoracic vertebrae. That's where they exist. And a lot of times it's actually your thoracic vertebrae that are having a adjustment challenge, not the rib itself. And so if you have a horse that's having a specific rib issue per se.

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Madelyn Melchiors: you got to make sure that your practitioners, also focusing there on the thoracics, which I thought was interesting.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah, and you and you did his legs as well. And I can't. I'm trying to remember. I think you did find a little bit of moving around and cracking in his hocks, and.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, yeah.

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Madelyn Melchiors: if you hear a lot of popping, though there might be a little bit too much force, you know. I was trained to be very gentle, very specific with my chiropractic adjustments, and so you shouldn't hear excessive popping all over the place. Audibles is what we call that.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Audibles are really common in the human world that you think of your neck. You think of your spine making those horrible noises, and those are called audibles

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Madelyn Melchiors: in the animal world. We don't have many audibles other than the legs, and so you can use. It's called the activator. It's the little clicky guy it's made out of metal. You can use an activator on horses legs. But that activator is made for up to 200 300 pounds.

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Madelyn Melchiors: So I'm not using an activator on the spine because most horses are a little heavier than 200 pounds, especially Roper.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Yeah.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Very good.

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Kris Hiney: Well, I've never watched any of these Tiktok videos you guys are talking about. So I'll just have to leave that a giant mystery.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Some of them are kind of scary, some of them. You think the dog is going to need one of those little back wheelchair things after they've adjusted it the way they adjust them.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I sure do love the response I get to animals, though with being a veterinarian I want wellness, and I want health, and I want my animals to feel the best they can, and I sure love the education I've gotten through my veterinary degree and the Chiropractic

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Madelyn Melchiors: and I enjoy teaching people, you know what's normal and what's good for our animals? Because, you know, our horses, they're pretty stoic, and horses are really good at compensating problems.

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Madelyn Melchiors: And so that's where people also ask me, you know, does my horse have to get adjusted by a chiropractor? You know he just stands around and gets brushed, and I said, Well.

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Madelyn Melchiors: you know you've got some aches and pains. I want to help reduce these compensations, because if you've got kind of a bad hip over here. You're going to have a sore lower back. And so let's prevent that lower back from being sore the rest of your life. Let's kind of work on keeping everything moving, because movement is what brings blood flow.

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Madelyn Melchiors: blood flow brings oxygen, and we all know our tissues. Love oxygen. That's what keeps them alive and healthy.

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Kris Hiney: Gotcha.

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Kris Hiney: So you said a little bit. I'm just curious with the sounds, or whatever. Maybe not, this is sound related. But

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Kris Hiney: is it possible? Just having watched animals react? Right? Does a negative reaction? Does that indicate that it was improper or just that that experience at that moment was not comfortable for that animal.

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Madelyn Melchiors: If I understand your question correctly, like, for example, if the animal tries to kind of bite or kick out a little bit, was that the chiropractor being a little rough, or are they just being a little sassy? A little bit of both? You don't want to go outside what's called the physiological range of a joint. So you don't want to stretch it too far. And so this is kind of like if you are pulling backwards onto your finger, and somebody's pushing on your finger really hard, and you're going. Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Ouch!

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Madelyn Melchiors: You don't want to go past that physiological barrier where you could break your finger, but you do want to stretch it.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Horses like to preserve themselves. So if they feel something that's kind of funny, they may react by jumping or kicking or looking at you. Funny. And so you may not, as a horse owner always be able to understand was that horse's kick

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Madelyn Melchiors: normal reaction versus scary reaction. But that's where having a conversation with the chiropractor in the moment, saying, Oh, was that normal? Was that good can kind of help. You understand what's going on.

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Madelyn Melchiors: But I will say as a chiropractor, and going through a lot of gentle adjustments.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I have some horses that squeal

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Madelyn Melchiors: the instant I just push on their joints. There's a little mare, little cutting horse mares. They're sassy.

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Madelyn Melchiors: You adjust the spine and she'll squeak every adjustment I make.

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Madelyn Melchiors: I can promise you that I'm not. I'm not pushing her beyond her physiological barrier. She just has it in her mind that she's gonna squeal every time I push on her a little bit.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Drama, queen.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah. And so that one's a little bit hard to judge as a horse owner of, you know. Is this person harming my animal or not, and that's where you do have to have a little bit of trust. That that person's.

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Madelyn Melchiors: you know, educated. And they're not going to harm your horse. Right? Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: all right. I think that's been very helpful. Is there anything that we're missing that we think our listeners should know a little bit more about chiropractic care for horses.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: Well, I mean, I think not necessarily, miss, but reminder that check and make sure. If it's a human or a veterinarian chiropractor, make sure they've done additional training, so that with the animals as she was talking about earlier because you want, I mean.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: you want the best thing for your animal, and you certainly don't want somebody just moving and knocking around, and if somebody has to do

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: complete

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: hard gyrations and twisting and pushing and things that just seem way out of

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: the

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: range of normal motion is probably not the one you want working on your animal.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: That's my guess, Matt, Madeline.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Yeah, I just want everybody to take away from this that there's different ways to help your animals, whether it's massage, chiropractic acupuncture. But at the end of the day you just want to make sure that the person who's touching your horse has gone through a little bit of education that seems sufficient. And so that's where I like to direct people to the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association or the International Veterinary Chiropractic Association, Avca.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Or Ivca, and they'll have a list of practitioners that are certified in your area, and that's a great place to start just because you're certified might not mean that that practitioner is perfect for your horse and your needs, but that's a great place to start to make sure that you at least have someone who's gone through all these hours of their personal time to get certified, and make sure that they are here with your horse's best interest in mind.

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Kris Hiney: Awesome. And I'm going to get just a little plug out, you know, for just that kind of care, because so often when people have horses that are stiff or a little reluctant to do something. Then the bits get bigger and the spurs get bigger, and that is not going to aid, discomfort. And so, if there's a pain issue going on that should be addressed, not just make punishment greater.

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betsygreene@arizona.edu: 100%.

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Madelyn Melchiors: Listen. Listen to our horses to ask them what they're telling us. Yeah.

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Kris Hiney: Absolutely

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Kris Hiney: well, I really appreciate your time today. So hopefully, maybe we've inspired

some listeners to go. And we'll put the these organizations websites just super easy in the show notes. You guys can click and look for a certified person in your area, but maybe inspired some people to seek out some alternative therapies that may actually make their horses feel quite a bit better.

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Kris Hiney: So thank you so much. Dr. Green and Dr. Melcher, for joining us today. And this has been another episode of our tech box talk core stories with a purpose.