Acupuncture: The story of a big bang for a little needle

Dr. Carey Williams, of Rutgers University, and Dr. Kathy Lackey, DVM and certified acupuncturist share their thoughts on which horses can be helped by a little needling.  From subtle behavior changes to routine maintenance, or finding hidden pains - acupuncture may be a tool to considered in your tack box of tricks to maintaining horse health and well-being.

Transcript

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Kris Hiney: Welcome to Extension Horses Tack Box Talk series, Horse Stories with a Purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney with Oklahoma State University, and today we're going to be talking about the use of acupuncture in horses. 

Kris Hiney: So, to discuss this with us, we have a… one of our returning guests, who is a horse owner that has regularly used acupuncture, so welcome back to the program, Dr. Carey Williams!

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Dr. Carey Williams: Hi, everybody! Thanks for inviting me!

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Kris Hiney: And we have her acupuncturist! So, Dr. Kathy Lackey is a first-time guest to the program, and she is an equine veterinarian with certification and specialty in acupuncture. So, welcome to the program, Dr. Lackey.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Thank you for having me.

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Kris Hiney: So, I'm gonna start with Carey. So, Carey, you said, you have been using acupuncture with your horses, so…

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Kris Hiney: I'm playing this, pokey game with your own ponies.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Yeah, so that was kind of a fun track back in history, so I realize it's been about 18 years when I first called Dr. Lackey to look at my horse, Mickey, which, if you are regular podcast followers, many of you have heard the stories of Mickey.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Now, Mickey, this year, has turned 28, so that would make about, 10 years old when I first called, Dr. Lackey.

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Dr. Carey Williams: The beauty of what Dr. Lackey does is she also does a lot of, chiropractic. So, we had some, muscle and back issues, so I had her out for both chiropractic and then, some acupuncture stuff, because Mickey was starting to get really cold-backed.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Every time I would go to mount and sit on her, she would scoot out from under me, which was not like her at all. This happened kind of suddenly.

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Dr. Carey Williams: And I had a friend go, oh, I have, I have this, you know, acupuncturist, she works wonders.

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Dr. Carey Williams: And in comes Kathy Lackey, and has been with me and my numerous horses for, yeah, 18 years.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so we would say, then, that you do have an existing veterinary client relationship. Oh, absolutely.

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Kris Hiney: So, Dr. Lackey, so we're gonna talk about acupuncture, and so I would presume that most people in general know what, what acupuncture is.

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Kris Hiney: But maybe jump in with why you got an interest in using acupuncture in your equine practice, so just kind of why you kind of started doing it, and then we'll get into some of the nitty-gritty details.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, sure. So, I was a racetrack practitioner, and of course, we see a lot of soreness in those horses. Sometimes, lameness exams don't reveal

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: a problem in the lower limbs. So, when I first started doing acupuncture, it was in the late 80s, and we didn't have a lot of upper body diagnostics readily available.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And I thought acupuncture would help me not only diagnose, but treat those horses. So, I went and became certified, and started using it right away in practice.

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Kris Hiney: So…

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Kris Hiney: Again, most people kind of know what acupuncture is, so I'm gonna be that silly person that's like, okay, are you poking it into, like, specific muscles? Are you targeting nerves? Like…

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Kris Hiney: you know, I've seen it done on dogs, small animals, like, horse is a big animal. How specific do you have to get in your points for what you're placing needles?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: We want to be as specific as possible, and we use landmarks on the body to find our points. Usually there's a depression where you find an acupuncture point, so you use your landmarks and then you palpate.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: For that depression, or whatever landmark you're looking for, you try to needle the middle of that point.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Because that's where you'll get the most effect.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Does that help?

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Kris Hiney: Sure, so… so give us a break, like…

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Kris Hiney: what happens? So when you place the needle in the acupuncture point.

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Kris Hiney: Is it doing some electrical signaling? Is this cell signaling? What?

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Kris Hiney: happens when the needle is placed in that point, that… that we're going to talk about these greater, more global effects, but can you give us a novice person's, like, breakdown into why does this kind of work?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, so you have the Chinese theory, that's, traditional Chinese veterinary medical, explanation, is that when you needle an acupuncture point, you're actually…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Kind of opening the point on that meridian where the energy travels the body.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And, it's kind of like flipping a switch, so if there's a blockage of energy, you open the meridian so the energy moves more normally through the body. Now, that probably doesn't satisfy the Western mind, so…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: There has been quite a bit of research as to what happens when you place a needle specifically into an acupuncture point.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And most of those points are near where blood vessels and nerves come superficial in the body, so you are working with the nervous system and actually

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: the immune system. So you create a very small injury, and the body responds appropriately.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. So it is sort of chemical release, as well as maybe nerve transmission that's… Yes.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Yes, absolutely.

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Kris Hiney: We probably don't need to go any deeper than that. Where people will be like, oh, this is getting complicated, so… So, so I'm gonna go back to Carey. So you said she… you had used it very specifically because,

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Kris Hiney: Mickey was starting to show, some behavior changes relative to you, riding her. So, first, kudos to you for recognizing that a behavior change…

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Kris Hiney: Probably means something's wrong. So, but what other things, you said you've used it a lot for your horses, what other things kind of make you think, like, oh, she needs this, or is this part of your general care routine now?

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Dr. Carey Williams: So, it's become part of my general care routine with all of my horses, but I think the primary reason and the things that I really see, and again, I always use it in combination with the chiropractic care, but is specifically stiffness along the spine.

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Dr. Carey Williams: And stiffness in the lateral work. So, just for reference, for those of you who don't know me, I do a lot of dressage, I do some jumping. Previous life, I was more of an eventer, now I'm more of a dressage rider. So there's a lot of lateral work we do, a lot of bending, a lot of flexibility.

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Dr. Carey Williams: And I see when my horses need to have an appointment with Dr. Lackey, is they become stiff, they become grumpy, they become less able to move, be flexible, be more supple. So I always kind of get the sense, and I try, especially in the show season when I'm working consistently.

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Dr. Carey Williams: To work on sort of an 8-week…

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Dr. Carey Williams: cycle, I guess, so every two months, depending. Granted, when Mickey was really bad, we were doing, I want to say it was every two times a week, every week, until she got better, because she needed it. I think it's kind of like anybody, you know, going to a chiropractor or acupuncturist.

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Dr. Carey Williams: But now, just for regular maintenance, and especially now with Palmer, my new horse, so he's just turned… er, turning 9,

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Dr. Carey Williams: He has a history of being very stiff, and I can tell he is super expressive, and he will let me know when he is not feeling well. He gets extremely grumpy, you know, anywhere from girthy to just behind the leg. Even goes to, like, raise a leg and get a little cranky when I ask him to canter.

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Dr. Carey Williams: And usually that's related to, okay, I know I'm due for an appointment, and I need to call.

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Dr. Carey Williams: It seems to work itself out and go away after the appointment. So, I like to call it magic, because I don't… even my science brain can't wrap my head around exactly what the acupuncture's doing, but I've been through it with enough of my horses to really see the benefits of it, especially when used regularly.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Might not see anything after one, you know, one treatment, but regular treatments, I do see a value in.

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Kris Hiney: How quickly do you see the behavior improve after treatments?

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Dr. Carey Williams: I usually try the next, so I don't usually ride them right after. I always try to, you know, ride them before, and then it would be 24 hours after. I try to do a long and low, light ride, something very stretchy. But I want to say I usually find more stretching and more flexibility, even 24 hours later. Then we can go, like, 48 hours later, really back to work. I can go on a lesson, I can collect them up.

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Dr. Carey Williams: even go to a show. And I just find, behaviorally, especially with Palmer, because again, he is very expressive in his feelings.

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Dr. Carey Williams: I feel like it's within a day or two, he seems to be feeling better.

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Kris Hiney: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: So, Dr. Lackey, what kind of candidates, or what horses, would you say, or, you know, if you're an owner and you're seeing some things, right? So, what maybe are some…

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Kris Hiney: Flags or… or things that an owner should maybe consider reaching out

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Kris Hiney: to an acupuncturist, slash chiropractor, and I might dig into that a little bit, but, like, yeah, what are the things that fall into, like, hey, I think this would be helped by that treatment?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, well, as Carey said, behavioral changes. Maybe you notice discomfort while grooming?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Or crankiness while they're being groomed. Difficulty with canter leads, or maintaining canter in one direction or the other, or even both. Difficulty with, lead changes,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: head tilt, of course, any stiffness, as Carrie was talking about,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Reluctance to go forward. If there's a lameness associated, Yes, chiropractic and acupuncture.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Can solve some lameness issues, but generally, It's… Preferable to have your…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Regular attending veterinarian, check the horse for a conventional lameness exam first.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Because sometimes the upper body is actually secondary to a foot, or a hock, or something like that, which needs to be addressed as well. It doesn't really matter what order you do it in, but I think it's less confusing to have that diagnosis first.

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Kris Hiney: Sure. So, so essentially the chiropractic and acupuncture is… am I gonna generalize here? Muscle-related versus skeletal, or is that…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: No, because.

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Kris Hiney: It, it's…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It certainly can be skeletal as well, because the chiropractic is actually addressing,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: joints in the skeleton that are not moving full… through full range of motion. But that is limiting

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: What I've just said is limiting somewhat, because acupuncture can be used to address internal medical issues also, such as heaves. I've had some good success with heaves and horses, and a lot of success going for acupuncture myself for some very,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It's severe asthma, actually.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, interesting.

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Kris Hiney: So how do you, like… okay, alright, so… so clearly you do this, right? Because you practice acupuncture. But what do you say to, like… so you said there's, like, a little bit of that Western medicine divide. What do you say if somebody's like, no, no, acupuncture can't help with asthma or heaves?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Well, if they want to try it, I offer it, and I… it is true that the more internal the condition, the more treatments are needed.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And so, it's a real commitment if you're going to do acupuncture for anything internal and particularly chronic.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. So, it, it does come with that.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Kind of caveat.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Yes. Can I… can I also

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Dr. Carey Williams: interject something, because I know, Kathy, we kind of played with this, I think, a little bit on maybe Pinky and Palmer?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: But, gastric ulcers as well, I know every once in a while you mention, oh, I don't… or I feel the ulcer point, or something you always mention and talk.

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Dr. Carey Williams: about. Can you address that, too? Because I know we've had several podcasts on ulcers through the years as well.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, sure, I think that…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: That is always a rule out for a cranky horse, or, you know, anything with a

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: signs of… of ulcers, and sometimes I do find ulcer points diagnostically.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: on horses that are not even suspected of having ulcers. And we all know from the statistics in performance and racehorses, you know, that the incidence is high, even if they're mild.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So I think it helps diagnostically. I think as far as treatment goes, I always recommend the Western medical treatment for that.

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Kris Hiney: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: So I… this is a comment I actually had from a student in class yesterday, so I figured, hey, maybe I'll ask you this. And so they had asked me…

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Kris Hiney: if a horse… if a horse is girthy, is it always pain? And I just said yes.

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Kris Hiney: Would you agree with that statement?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Well, pain or remembered pain. You know, horses that have maybe been tacked up really quickly, you know, ride or always in a hurry, you know, may just… that may just be behavior.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: it always bears looking into. And I should back up a little bit on the ulcers, because there are herbal treatments that some people find quite successful. I think, at least with the population of horses I see, I think that a horse with an active ulcer

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: does need treatment with our GastroGuard, or sucralfate, or Misoprostol.

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Dr. Carey Williams: So, I can jump in there on that, too, Kris, because, you know, I bought Palmer as a 3-year-old.

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Dr. Carey Williams: he was… he came to me girthy. He was always girthy. Finally, a year ago, you know, so I've had him 5 years.

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Dr. Carey Williams: It really went based on the location. If, you know, I tacked them up at a trailer, and we were going on a trail ride or at a show, not girthy. Tucked up in a stall at the farm, or a particular farm.

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Dr. Carey Williams: girthy. Every once in a while, if I tack him up in the arena, and I grab the girth, girthy. But every once in a while, not. So finally, I go and get him scoped. He did have ulcers. They weren't, you know, grade 4, oh my god, ulcers, but they were there. We took 2 months to treat him.

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Dr. Carey Williams: I never saw any less girthiness, any less… any behavioral changes that way. We re-scoped him, he was completely clean, absolutely zero ulcers, but his girthiness, his little

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Dr. Carey Williams: naughty little attitude, I like to call it, never really went away. So what my vet who treated the ulcer said is, this is now a learned response, and since he's done it for so long, and since he started as a young one.

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Dr. Carey Williams: He just might always do it, because it's just something he's always done, regardless of the pain.

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Kris Hiney: I think, so maybe we can chat about that a little bit, because that was one of the addendums I said to my 100% yes answer, was that it can be,

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Kris Hiney: learned, right? So I have learned that this thing is uncomfortable, and so you have that anticipatory response, right? Because nobody walks into the dentist and be like, this is gonna be great! So, because if you've learned something.

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Kris Hiney: has been unpleasant. Your body is, you know, going to be protective about that.

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Kris Hiney: So, and maybe, Dr. Lackey, you could jump in there.

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Kris Hiney: How does an owner try to navigate that…

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Kris Hiney: active pain versus remembered pain, because I do believe remembered pain is absolutely a real thing, but how does an owner figure it out?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Right, and I do agree with that. So, sometimes there are other signs, weight loss, or maybe there's some mild colics, especially around feed time.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: A lot of times not. There might be other signs, such as reluctance to go forward in their work.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Changes of hair coat, it… sometimes it's more the degree of pressure, you know, so if you…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: make sure that you're girthing them up, you know, first loosely, and then, you know, one hole at a time, walk them out, and finish girthing them up, you know, right before you get on, or even after you get on and walk around for a little while. You know, all those things help, but ultimately.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: The gastroscopy is unfortunately what tells you.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: The whole story.

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Kris Hiney: And I definitely want to get back to acupuncture, but now, like I said, this is my rabbit trail little brain here. So, one of the things that maybe is not in the vernacular of the horse folks as much as it is other species.

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Kris Hiney: But that, of what we're talking about, girthing or something like that, essentially develops a conditioned emotional response, right? A negative one.

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Kris Hiney: Relief?

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Kris Hiney: The only way to change that is to flip the switch, right, to turn it now into a positive conditioned emotional response, and that takes time, it's doable, but it's not quite, I think, in the vernacular for more horse people to think about changing the emotions about something.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: That makes sense, yeah. And I guess the other thing I should say about girthiness.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It can be also in the physical. So, horses with bad saddle fit, of course,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Or horses that may have kissing spine, or are uncomfortable through the wither area will sometimes be girthy, and then acupuncture and chiropractic can help with that.

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Kris Hiney: Right.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, something else to rule out.

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, and again, I don't… like, we're definitely gonna get back to acupuncture.

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Kris Hiney: Yes, girthiness can be from so many other things, right, than just…

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Kris Hiney: an ulcer, right? If you're jamming on a poorly fitting saddle, I'm not gonna be happy when you tighten that thing up, or if every time I'm ridden, it's terrible, right? Like, yeah, I don't want that saddle. So, like, there's a lot going on there, that I think people need to really think about why the animal is doing… doing that. So, alright, I'm gonna get off my behavior stump speech,

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Kris Hiney: back onto… to acupuncture. So… so Carey was talking a little bit about, like, routine care, frequency, so…

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Kris Hiney: how does it work? And again, not, like, super science-y, but, like, what is that, like, frequency versus interval use of this technology?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: depends on what you're treating. So, kind of back to the heavey horse.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I find it works best if I can see the horse a couple times a week for several weeks, and if it's seasonal, preferably before the season starts, because it's much more difficult to stop

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: A reaction like that, you know, especially the allergic component,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It's much more difficult to stop it than prevent it.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And then you tend to, once the horse is pretty stable.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: back off maybe to once a week, once every couple weeks, and, you know, if there's an off-season when the horse isn't usually showing clinical signs, maybe once a month for maintenance. So, for body soreness, performance horses.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Generally need treatment less often.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Anywhere from maybe once a week in racehorses when they're training in racing.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: To once a month, once every 8 weeks.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Occasionally, I find horses that are just pretty stable and lower limb sound and don't have a lot of problems, but benefit from a little maintenance once or twice a year.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, varies highly with the horse's job, any other issues they may have, and their work routine.

Kris Hiney: So, Dr. Lackey, do you prefer that owners just keep their horses kind of on a regular schedule with you, or wait until, like Carey said, she sees kind of some behavior changes, with her horse?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, either works. I find… I feel like I do…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: a little more effective treatment if the horse Is actually needing it.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Prevention is fine, and I guess it stops them from going way backwards, but I think…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: The worst thing is to let it go too far, you know? Don't let him be cranky for a month.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, kind of at the beginning of when they show signs is probably ideal. And actually, horses that are worked with pretty regularly, we kind of know when that is, and adjust the schedule for that horse.

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Kris Hiney: So, what kind of things, then, because we talked about girthiness and kind of a little crankiness, what other signs and things should owners be looking for? And I guess my other question is,

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Kris Hiney: How do you decide whether it's acupuncture or chiropractor? Is that on what you feel, or what the horse is showing you?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, that's pretty easy, because whenever I… well.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: there are exceptions, but when I go to see a horse, I usually…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Do the acupuncture scan, and see which points are reactive.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And from there, it kind of guides me to what they might need chiropractically. So I then follow with a chiropractic exam.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And, adjust what I find, and then follow up with acupuncture, you know, according to what I've found and what I've corrected.

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Kris Hiney: So when you're talking about… oh, go ahead, Carey.

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Dr. Carey Williams: Sorry, I feel like this is an appropriate time, too, to talk about the, when and when you don't also use the e-stim, or the stimulator, on them, because I know most of the time when you do acupuncture on my guys, you're doing that. Yeah. Is there ever a time you don't?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Yes, on horses that are super reactive to the needles, because I think that the stem in some horses is just too much.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, you know, it bothers them, and they have to be restrained, rather than enjoying and getting the benefit of the endorphins and, you know, the further stimulation that the electro gives. It doesn't really matter how you stimulate a point. I mean, I can inject B12,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Or either other, you know, other possibly, sterile solutions. But…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: as long as you're stimulating the acupuncture point that you want to address, you can use dry needles, electro, or injections. Moxa is an herbal that we sometimes heat.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: you know, acupuncture points with, warm the points, especially in weather like we're having right now. And acupressure does, you know, help as well. And laser.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, we might have to go back on some of those, and maybe just explain them, so… because I was… as I was thinking, like, if you have not seen E-Stim, most people wouldn't know what that is, or what's the difference between a dry needle… and then when you said inject matzah, like, soup?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: No, not…

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Kris Hiney: I have to back up.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: No, no, actually, it's an herbal that you heat points with. So they have these little cones, and you can put a needle through the cone, and then light the herbal. And it's… it's very warming, you know, to the horse. Horses with cold backs. I don't use it as much, maybe, as I…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: could, because I don't really like… Burning things in a barn.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: If I had a clinic, you know, and we didn't have hay straw and horses being stabled there, I think I would use it more often.

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Kris Hiney: So, so I was right. When you said, like, light it, you… like, candles on the horse? Is this…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It's in verbal, so…

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Kris Hiney: Right?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It's… it's an herbal, and they come in cones.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And you actually light the herbs on the horse's back, or there's moxa of sticks, too, that kind of look like a cigar, and you light the stick and hold it near the point, or over the needle while the needle's in the point, and just kind of keep your hand on the needle so you don't warm it too much.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so you're not holding a lit fire on the horse, it's… the fire is getting close to the needle. Is that the picture in my head correct now?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Pretty much, you can burn these moxa cones. You light the moxa, the herbal itself. You know, it's a plant material, and they make it into little cones, and you can light those cones while the cones sit on the back.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Of the horse.

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Kris Hiney: I'm gonna have to just Google image search this.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I'm sorry.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It's, it's not actually a flame that…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: you're using, but it's… the Moxa, you light the moxa, and the Moxa burns on the horse.

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Dr. Carey Williams: I'm envisioning, like, incense.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Yeah! I'm sorry, I should have said that.

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Dr. Carey Williams: You know, isn't it? I mean, I… That's great. my college days, I was big into incense, and they have little incense cones, right?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Can you… yeah.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Hit, can you guys see me? I don't know what… No.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Oh, okay, okay, I was gonna get one out of the back of my car and show you. I don't know how to make myself seen.

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Kris Hiney: That's okay. I think both Carey and I will probably, when we're done with this, be doing some image searches to be like, I need this in my brain right now, because what I… again, and I'm picturing the incense sticks, I'm like, surely not?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Yes, that's right, and then you light the stick, only it's small. Okay, okay.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, we got it.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Good, Carey!

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Kris Hiney: Yeah, so this has gone a whole different direction for where… Okay, now I remember my question,

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Kris Hiney: So, you said that you do a scan of the.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: horse.

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Kris Hiney: So, again, in my head, now I'm picturing, like, Beverly Crusher on Star Trek Next Gen, like, waving the medical detector over him. Is it a device? Is it your hands? What is…

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Kris Hiney: Acupuncture scan.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, so it could be my hands, but I find it kind of saves my fingers if I use just, a needle hub. I don't… the needle's not in it, and I just apply pressure. First light pressure, and then I often go back over with a little more pressure at each point.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And just watch for reactions.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, so if they react at that point… at that…

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Kris Hiney: point, or not a meridian, because that's the lines. At that point, then.

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Kris Hiney: Something is not flowing through there.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Correct, yes.

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Kris Hiney: Yes.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And there are…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Diagnostic points, sets of points, that can help lead you, say, to a sore knee or a sore hock, you know, something that might be going on elsewhere.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And they're what are called alarm points, which are more for diagnosing problems in the internal organs. So, that is…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: in addition to the sternum, also what I'm looking at when I go looking for ulcer points in the horse.

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Kris Hiney: So, have you ever, like, been doing a scan on one of these diagnostic points, and you're like, oh, hey, you should go get that checked out? Yes. And then it was like, ding, ding, ding, oh, tell me a.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Frequently. Frequently.

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Kris Hiney: Okay, I want some examples.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Well, easy one is… Feet come up a lot.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Now, we already know that as veterinarians, right? Statistically, there's, you know, 90-plus percent of lameness are in the feet.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: But maybe it's a foot abscess cooking, and they'll say, no, you know, this horse is perfectly sound.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: the next time, you know, they ride it, say, a few days later, the horse is a little off and pops a foot abscess. That has happened to me repeatedly.

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Kris Hiney: Come on!

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Kris Hiney: So… Yeah.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: It can be confusing, too, you know, because every point has, local significance, you know, to whatever structure it overlies, and something, you know, that it might be associated distally or not near the point.

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Kris Hiney: Okay.

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Kris Hiney: So, what other, big take-home messages would you have for an owner, right? So, if they haven't used acupuncture, like, maybe who should they look for?

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Kris Hiney: like, because you said you're certified, like, who should they reach out to maybe have this service done? Should, even if their horse is not showing them anything, should this be something to try out? Or… yeah, what should the average owner do about trying to seek acupuncture care?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Okay, so…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I think the average horse likely would benefit from acupuncture. There's very few horses I go over and say, there's nothing here.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So it might just make a horse that's going well, you know, help that horse to go a little bit better, or stay a little bit more healthy, because that is something actually done in human medicine. Sometimes people go for an acupuncture checkup.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And there might be something that the acupuncturist can find to kind of help balance out the energies in the body.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: What was your other… the other part of the question?

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Kris Hiney: I guess, like, who should they seek out for a practitioner? Do they need to, like, is there some credentialing that would say this person is maybe better at it than somebody else?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Right. First of all, the person should be a veterinarian.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: And the certification courses… I was certified by IVAS,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: which is the International Veterinary Acupuncture Society. A lot of people also go to Chi University in Florida, and they have an excellent certification program.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I think Colorado State is still doing a very science-based…

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Acupuncture program offered to both veterinarians and their senior students.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: So, you know, from one of those

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: At least in the United States, I'm… I'm sure other countries have their own certification programs as well. IVAS is international.

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Dr. Carey Williams: So, Dr. Lackey, is this a practice that you have to be a veterinarian to do? Unlike, you know, like dentistry, I know you can get, you know, non-veterinary dentists, but you do need to be a veterinarian to be certified in acupuncture, is that correct?

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I can't speak for other countries, but for the United States, most states require

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: that you be a veterinarian. There may be an exception in a couple of states, but those states would at least require that you be certified in… or licensed in human acupuncture.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: I, I think it helps to be a veterinarian, because I think you… Ideally, should be,

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: very familiar with diagnosis and treatments available, you know, in Western medicine as well.

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iPhone (4)kathy lackey: Say you're familiar with the, you know, whatever it is you're treating.

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Kris Hiney: Okay. Well, I think this has been fun, so hopefully people may have some confidence in reaching out to an acupuncturist if their horse is having some behavior changes.

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Kris Hiney: Again, I'll go back to preaching my, like, hey, if you have a behavior change, or if your horse is not acting right, there's something probably wrong, right? So we need to give the benefit of the doubt to the horse.

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Kris Hiney: And this is a great methodology to, to kind of maybe put into your horse management protocol. So, Carey, again, any last testimonials on what you've seen with your herd of horses that have, had acupuncture?

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Dr. Carey Williams: Yeah, I think we definitely go back to, you know, just comfort level. You know, I've had some horses that really haven't had problems, but I just…

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Dr. Carey Williams: feel, as I'm riding them, I feel like they're more comfortable with the regular care. I don't do it as much in the winter, because, you know, as Dr. Lackey said, it's, like, sub-20 degrees right now in New Jersey, so it's not all that nice.

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Dr. Carey Williams: But, you know, my horse also has been on layup for other issues, and now he's coming back into work, so I'm starting to get him, you know, more treatments now as he's coming back into work, and I just feel like it helps him be more comfortable, so…

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Kris Hiney: Well, I really appreciate both of you guys taking your time out of your day to, kind of talk a little bit about acupuncture, maybe take the mystery out of it a little bit, and again, encourage owners to really think about their horse's health more holistically, using behavior as a guide, and finding practitioners that can help with some of these more subtle things that may be going on with your horse.

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Kris Hiney: Well, again, thank you, and this has been another episode of our Tack Box Talk, Horse Stories with a Purpose.