Tack Box Talk
Tack Box Talk
Stepping back: The story of when it is time to do less with your horse
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this personal episode, Dr. Nettie Liburt and Dr. Carey Williams share their stories of when they knew their horses needed to step back in activity levels. They discuss the importance of truly tuning into your horse, and allowing them to have a voice in their activity level. They also stress the importance of keeping those seniors moving. Plus, we get updates on ET and Mickey!
Kris Hiney: Welcome to Extension Horse's Tack Box Talk series, Horse Stories with a Purpose. I'm your host, Dr. Kris Hiney, with Oklahoma State University, and today we're going to be talking about the subject of how do we know when it might be time to maybe step…
88
00:08:04.700 --> 00:08:23.739
Kris Hiney: from competition, lower expectations, or even retire our favorite long-term friends. So, with us today, returning guests, with stories that you guys have, heard about their horses in the past, so Dr. Carrie Williams, so welcome back, Carey.
89
00:08:24.120 --> 00:08:26.309
Carey Williams: Hi everybody, thanks for inviting me back!
90
00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:29.569
Kris Hiney: And Dr. Nettie Liburt! Welcome back, Nettie!
91
00:08:29.570 --> 00:08:32.240
Nettie Liburt: Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.
92
00:08:32.659 --> 00:08:46.519
Kris Hiney: So, we're gonna get updates on, on Mickey, I believe, as well as ET, and see what they're up to, and kind of decisions you guys have made along the way. So.
93
00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:54.079
Kris Hiney: Who wants to get started with your journey of lowering expectations, or, you know…
94
00:08:54.480 --> 00:08:57.260
Nettie Liburt: What was a Saturday Night Live skit a million years ago?
95
00:08:58.170 --> 00:09:03.349
Kris Hiney: Yes, it was. We should revisit that. There were some good ones.
96
00:09:03.880 --> 00:09:07.680
Carey Williams: Nettie, why don't you go ahead, since you're jumping on from there? Sure.
97
00:09:07.850 --> 00:09:21.760
Nettie Liburt: Sure! So you may recall E.T. from some of the other adventures in wound healing and recovery and rehab. So, E.T. is my 26-year-old, appendix.
98
00:09:21.920 --> 00:09:22.770
Kris Hiney: 26?
99
00:09:22.770 --> 00:09:32.279
Nettie Liburt: I've had him… Yeah, he just turned 26 in March. I have had him for a little over 20 years, so I've had him since he was 5.
100
00:09:32.970 --> 00:09:33.640
Kris Hiney: Wow.
101
00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:47.820
Nettie Liburt: And, he… actually, I just moved him back to the farm that I basically grew up at, and where he was when I first got him, and he's quite happy there. But yeah, so we did…
102
00:09:48.060 --> 00:09:54.079
Nettie Liburt: I mean, and I use this term loosely, hunter-jumper kind of stuff, which was really mostly equitation and…
103
00:09:54.290 --> 00:10:01.529
Nettie Liburt: you know, the jumper classes we did were low level, you know, just kind of for fun.
104
00:10:01.690 --> 00:10:11.019
Nettie Liburt: And… yeah, he's… I call him semi-retired now. We mostly take nice, leisurely walks around the farm.
105
00:10:11.020 --> 00:10:26.020
Nettie Liburt: And if he feels like trotting or cantering, we trot or canter a little bit, but if he doesn't, we don't. And you might say, well, how do you know, beside him being a very spoiled horse, which has figured out this game?
106
00:10:26.540 --> 00:10:31.009
Nettie Liburt: And I'm happy to dive into that story if you'd like.
107
00:10:31.860 --> 00:10:45.750
Kris Hiney: Yeah, so let's see. I want to get an age update from… from Carey to see where we're at with Mickey, and then we'll kind of go back into when we started to slow down a bit. So where… how old is Mickey these days, Carey?
108
00:10:45.750 --> 00:10:47.409
Carey Williams: Nikki's 28.
109
00:10:47.900 --> 00:10:51.050
Carey Williams: I bought her as a yearling, so I've had a…
110
00:10:51.050 --> 00:10:51.560
Kris Hiney: Hi!
111
00:10:51.560 --> 00:11:09.549
Carey Williams: 7 years. Yeah, I know, the longest I've ever owned or done anything. There's not been anything longer. So, yeah, she… she's had a little bit longer of a story, so for those of you who remember, Mickey was my event horse.
112
00:11:09.560 --> 00:11:11.790
Carey Williams: Took her up through preliminary.
113
00:11:11.930 --> 00:11:19.660
Carey Williams: And then she suffered an eye injury. So that was kind of the first step down, is that very long eye injury story.
114
00:11:19.660 --> 00:11:33.069
Carey Williams: And if you want to look back in episodes, I think it was one of the originals. It was, yeah. We had a very, very long recovery of the eye injury. We did save the eye, but the vets are like, yeah, she's probably looking through a cataract.
115
00:11:33.290 --> 00:11:44.490
Carey Williams: So, it got me a little worried that horses aren't great with depth perception anyway, so I didn't know that I really wanted to be galloping at, very solid, almost 4-foot fences.
116
00:11:44.620 --> 00:11:53.429
Carey Williams: So, I decided that it was probably time for me to retire her from competition, because at the time, I wasn't looking ready to step down, it was her.
117
00:11:53.460 --> 00:12:05.220
Carey Williams: So, she ended up getting leased out to a couple of people at our barn, and my trainer, helped with that step down, and basically only hand-picked the people
118
00:12:05.220 --> 00:12:23.849
Carey Williams: That she was leased out to. They did end up doing little beginner novice events, and jumping, you know, competitions, and like Dersaj, and she loved every minute of that. So she kept going for quite a while, until my trainer's mother, who is actually one of the people leasing her.
119
00:12:24.180 --> 00:12:28.950
Carey Williams: She asked me if she could move her closer to her home, because she was about an hour and change away from the barn.
120
00:12:29.070 --> 00:12:46.259
Carey Williams: And she loved Mickey just about as much as I do, if not more, and I said, yes, absolutely. So after she moved her to her farm, they stopped eventing, they were mostly just doing, like, dressage and, you know, very little cross rails, and it was apparent that
121
00:12:46.350 --> 00:13:05.229
Carey Williams: you know, Mickey's eye, every once in a while, would play tricks on her. We kind of felt like she was getting a little spookier than normal, lighting changes were a little weird, and… and the lady just wasn't as comfortable riding her in different scenarios, whether it was, you know, trail rides, over jumps, that sort of thing.
122
00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:17.409
Carey Williams: So, you know, little by little over the years, we have stepped down. I will say she's not fully retired yet. We have had these conversations as to, I'm not sure, maybe it's coming, maybe it's close.
123
00:13:17.410 --> 00:13:26.869
Carey Williams: She's had bouts of EPM, she's, you know, went through the whole lameness, up-down, sideways cycle. She's managing her on,
124
00:13:26.990 --> 00:13:28.060
Carey Williams: Adequan?
125
00:13:28.170 --> 00:13:41.550
Carey Williams: And if she gets her regular Adequan, she seems to do great. There's days where she's, like, you know, feels like she's 10 again. I'll go take her on some trail rides, because, you know, I think that's still fun, and Mickey's still, you know.
126
00:13:41.690 --> 00:13:57.269
Carey Williams: chugging along, all excited to be out, out back. But then there are days where she's just really tired, and just apparent, she doesn't want to do it, and the good thing with the lady who's leasing her now is she really doesn't have an agenda.
127
00:13:57.270 --> 00:14:16.959
Carey Williams: If she's doing great and wants to go for a ride, she will. If not, she doesn't. So, you know, that's kind of been the… the short story of it. But yeah, still being ridden just very lightly and kind of only on the days where she feels like it, and I guess that's kind of what Nettie said, too, with your guy, so…
128
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:17.600
Nettie Liburt: Nope.
129
00:14:18.180 --> 00:14:27.520
Kris Hiney: So, so, easy question first, and then we'll ask harder questions, and then kind of go back to… to Nettie. So, how old was Mickey when she had the eye injury?
130
00:14:28.790 --> 00:14:35.219
Carey Williams: So, eye injury happened when she was 12, so…
131
00:14:35.220 --> 00:14:35.970
Kris Hiney: really early.
132
00:14:35.970 --> 00:14:44.439
Carey Williams: A long time ago. Yeah, so she did that, and that's when she stepped down from the major competitions.
133
00:14:44.550 --> 00:14:52.320
Carey Williams: She was competing probably a good 5, 6, 7 years at the lower levels that whole time.
134
00:14:52.390 --> 00:15:09.359
Carey Williams: I would still go out and ride her and jump way more. They actually would call me out, and they're like, can you jump her? Mickey's getting really sick of us, and needs someone better. So I would hop on, and I would do, you know, I would take a jump lesson, and we'd do, you know, 2-6-3 foot stuff.
135
00:15:09.360 --> 00:15:14.039
Carey Williams: And then the next couple days and the next little while after that, the…
136
00:15:14.040 --> 00:15:28.209
Carey Williams: the people leased her were like, oh, she needed that, because now she's settled down. But it just, I think she just got a bug up her butt and really needed to do something fun, and then I'd go out and do it, but I haven't done that in a long time, and it's clear Mickey's kinda done with that part.
137
00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:30.779
Carey Williams: So, yeah.
138
00:15:30.780 --> 00:15:43.499
Kris Hiney: Yeah, and at 28, I would… I would get that. So… so we'll go back to… to Nettie, and… and both of you guys can kind of weigh on this, because you were talking about when they feel like it.
139
00:15:44.180 --> 00:15:53.710
Kris Hiney: And how can you tell… That they want to participate in that activity and opt-in.
140
00:15:55.080 --> 00:16:03.490
Nettie Liburt: Well, here's how I deduced this, and it starts a few years… more than a few years ago, probably…
141
00:16:03.830 --> 00:16:09.910
Nettie Liburt: 8 or 9 years ago. And I was riding ET regularly.
142
00:16:10.560 --> 00:16:12.840
Nettie Liburt: And… he was…
143
00:16:13.290 --> 00:16:28.929
Nettie Liburt: pretty much any rider knows this feeling, right? If you're riding your horse, like, I would ask him to trot, and he would almost suck back, like, he would feel my leg on to ask him to go forward, and he would almost want to go backwards.
144
00:16:29.270 --> 00:16:37.440
Nettie Liburt: And, yes, this could be indicative of a million things, right? Ulcers, or sourness, or soreness, or whatever, and it…
145
00:16:38.260 --> 00:16:40.789
Nettie Liburt: Suffice to say, it wasn't any of that.
146
00:16:41.010 --> 00:16:49.370
Nettie Liburt: And I thought, alright, you know what, you're just being a little lazy, come on, let's go. And this went on for longer than I…
147
00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:50.970
Nettie Liburt: Want to admit.
148
00:16:51.220 --> 00:16:59.730
Nettie Liburt: And I said to my vet, look, I need you to do a lameness eval, because something is up, like, there… he's not overtly lame.
149
00:17:00.180 --> 00:17:19.080
Nettie Liburt: you know, x-rays were clean, everything's good, and long story short, it turned out… he was turned out in a fairly good-sized paddock, but there was a hill on that paddock, and I mean, a pretty steep hill, not just like a rolling sloping thing. And just like a little kid, he loved to run up and down this hill.
150
00:17:20.190 --> 00:17:24.020
Nettie Liburt: So, it turns out he had a torn meniscus.
151
00:17:24.140 --> 00:17:28.250
Nettie Liburt: In his right hind, like, stifle area.
152
00:17:28.560 --> 00:17:43.339
Nettie Liburt: And my vet finds this after doing, you know, her evaluation, she at least located the area of where he was sore. And me feeling like a horrible human being, we treated it with PRP. He healed beautifully.
153
00:17:43.340 --> 00:17:58.839
Nettie Liburt: And was perfectly happy and sound once all of that healed, we just kept going as usual, and everything was fine. So, fast forward a few years, and fast forward me reading Dr. Sue Dyson's Equine Pain Ethogram, and having that in my head.
154
00:17:59.190 --> 00:18:01.630
Nettie Liburt: And…
155
00:18:02.070 --> 00:18:06.650
Nettie Liburt: Kind of trying to be more in tune to his behavior and what he's trying to tell me.
156
00:18:06.770 --> 00:18:15.339
Nettie Liburt: He started doing this behavior again, and what I'm… in a couple ways. So once, I would put my leg on him, and he would suck back, not want to go forward.
157
00:18:15.450 --> 00:18:25.319
Nettie Liburt: He was at, you know, a different place, no hills. I don't believe he has another torn meniscus, I haven't investigated that, but he's telling me something.
158
00:18:26.470 --> 00:18:27.030
Kris Hiney: Great.
159
00:18:27.030 --> 00:18:30.230
Nettie Liburt: So… also…
160
00:18:30.600 --> 00:18:46.069
Nettie Liburt: we would do the thing where, you know, we would trot around, canter around, doing very… at this point, still very light work on the flat under English tack. Tack that fit, saddle has been fit… saddle fit is another story in another podcast, but everything fitting.
161
00:18:46.070 --> 00:18:54.789
Nettie Liburt: And, you know, at the canter, he would be bucking and leaping when he really shouldn't be at age 24. Like, there was… at the time, there was no…
162
00:18:55.000 --> 00:18:59.260
Nettie Liburt: overt reason for him to be doing that, so I'm like, okay.
163
00:18:59.260 --> 00:19:16.059
Nettie Liburt: some things up. And I was willing to do the usual stuff, right? He has a hitchy stifle, you know, we could get the stifle injected. We could look at the hawks and do some of that. And I don't need him to be injected so that I can trot around a ring, right? I would inject him so that he could be happy and comfortable. He was also
164
00:19:16.060 --> 00:19:17.570
Nettie Liburt: when I observed him.
165
00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:28.129
Nettie Liburt: And this is a horse, when you turn him out, he would drop and roll in mud, like, instantly, and I was watching him roll, and he would start to go and stand up, and start to go and stop, and I'm like, mmm…
166
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:32.459
Nettie Liburt: Immediate video, panic call to the vet, please come, please come.
167
00:19:33.070 --> 00:19:50.559
Nettie Liburt: So, you know, did a few things here and there, seemed to be better. So, all of this to say that I'm piecing these things together, I wanted a few more x-rays. X-rays did not show anything remarkable for, I'm sorry, a 26-year-old quarter horse, his x-rays are pretty darn good.
168
00:19:51.110 --> 00:19:57.819
Nettie Liburt: And we did find some arthritis in his cervical spine, C2, C3, but to be honest, it's probably been there.
169
00:19:58.210 --> 00:19:59.349
Nettie Liburt: For a while.
170
00:19:59.460 --> 00:20:15.759
Nettie Liburt: And I just said, alright, when you know better, do better. He's 20… at that time, he was 25, right, when this started to really start to manifest. And I thought, this horse does not have to do anything. We're not going to the Olympics. Sorry, LA, 28, we're not going to be there.
171
00:20:16.190 --> 00:20:25.869
Nettie Liburt: he doesn't need to horse show, he doesn't need to lesson at this point in his life, I just want him to be comfortable and happy, and if I can ride him a little bit, great, and…
172
00:20:25.960 --> 00:20:42.089
Nettie Liburt: you know, being one who studied senior horses and kind of knowing what I know, I'm like, well, you do have to walk. We have to do something. So he seems to be… I just tried to take all of those pieces of his behavior and getting to know him over 20-plus years.
173
00:20:42.090 --> 00:20:59.429
Nettie Liburt: And just try to learn from my past experiences, because he is stoic, like, he doesn't tell you these things. So I still am not sure exactly where something is bugging him, and some days he feels great, and he's like, yee-haw, and he feels everybody, like, my former trainer is like, ET act your age!
174
00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:03.760
Nettie Liburt: Not… sometimes he does gymnastics.
175
00:21:03.860 --> 00:21:14.829
Nettie Liburt: But I don't force him… I don't force him to do anything, so I just… that's sort of my long-winded answer to… to that question, but I just… I'm trying to listen to him and do better, and I don't have expectations of him.
176
00:21:15.480 --> 00:21:31.169
Kris Hiney: Right, right. And I think that's, you're talking about their behavior is super important, right, for people to kind of clue into those changes, because that's the only way they can to articulate, you know, what's wrong. And I guess the question, you know, when you're doing a lot of diagnostics.
177
00:21:31.230 --> 00:21:46.980
Kris Hiney: So, philosophically, does it… does it really matter where he hurts, right? Because is there any intervention that you could conceivably do now, right, to pinpoint this is the thing that hurts, or…
178
00:21:47.210 --> 00:21:51.140
Kris Hiney: you know what? Just, like, all of the things.
179
00:21:51.140 --> 00:22:00.440
Nettie Liburt: Right, right. Well, I mean, he is maintained on one Equiox per day. He also has PPID, so he gets his medication for that as well.
180
00:22:01.550 --> 00:22:14.699
Nettie Liburt: But in my mind, I was like, well, if he needs something to be comfortable in his life, fine. Like, that was kind of where I was coming from, from diagnostics, and I'm asking them, I'm like, should I do this? Should I do this? And they're like.
181
00:22:15.550 --> 00:22:21.360
Nettie Liburt: So, and, you know, I have some pretty awesome sport horse vets, so…
182
00:22:22.130 --> 00:22:27.990
Nettie Liburt: It was more… my primary concern was to make him happy, and be comfortable, to…
183
00:22:28.500 --> 00:22:47.830
Nettie Liburt: act how he… to be how he is, and I'm pretty sure that he is, you know, because he's… his personality is not changed. But yeah, it's… from that point of view, if he was… if he needed something to be comfortable and happy, yep, fine, do it, whatever, I'll figure out a way to pay for it.
184
00:22:47.930 --> 00:22:54.729
Nettie Liburt: In the sense of, do I need to do it so I can go to a war show? No, absolutely not. Not from my perspective.
185
00:22:56.250 --> 00:23:02.630
Kris Hiney: So both of you had 20, 20 plus, year relationship with these horses, like…
186
00:23:02.920 --> 00:23:17.370
Kris Hiney: how do you feel about this stepping back and retirement? Because this is gonna be a… I mean, it's a little personal as… as well. Like, I just retired one of my, dogs, and, like, it's…
187
00:23:17.520 --> 00:23:25.130
Kris Hiney: It's a little tough sometimes to think about that, so how have you been dealing with it mentally?
188
00:23:25.400 --> 00:23:31.320
Carey Williams: And, you know, to go back just a little, I think Nettie did really nail it on the head, you gotta know your horse.
189
00:23:31.430 --> 00:23:42.850
Carey Williams: And, I mean, yeah, even though I don't, you know, know Mickey every day like I used to, you know, really it's about their behavior, and really knowing who they are and what their normal behavior is.
190
00:23:43.150 --> 00:24:01.750
Carey Williams: And when something's off, you know, look into it, it was really hard for me to stop competing her, when I ultimately decided that that was the plan. Because she was young, and I had just really kind of gotten established
191
00:24:01.750 --> 00:24:11.260
Carey Williams: We actually got established at prelim, had to take a step back and figure out some confidence issues, and then we were… we were back, and we were good, and we did maybe 2 or 3, and
192
00:24:11.260 --> 00:24:26.040
Carey Williams: she was just amazing, and then the eye hit, and it was early in the season, actually it was before the season, and I was so… I spent all winter getting ready for the next season, and I was so excited to come back and have a great season.
193
00:24:26.040 --> 00:24:31.849
Carey Williams: And, you know, I just remember all the rollercoaster of that march to…
194
00:24:31.850 --> 00:24:51.810
Carey Williams: September of dealing with that eye issue and never getting to computer again, that was hard. It was very hard. But you also have to look for safety, and really, in the end, that's what I looked at is, look, if she can't really see these fences very well, I don't want to be on that. You know, I was… I was not…
195
00:24:52.190 --> 00:25:05.810
Carey Williams: I was a lot younger than I am now, but, you know, I wasn't a teenager. I knew I would break and not bounce, like I used to. So, while it was really hard for me, you know, I just kind of…
196
00:25:06.060 --> 00:25:16.960
Carey Williams: Chalked it up to, you know what, she's still got people that love her and will compete her, and she's still doing what she loves, she doesn't need to do it at, you know, a potentially dangerous level with me.
197
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:28.239
Carey Williams: And I think that did help, really having a lot of support around me. My trainer loved her to death, and that's why… that's ultimately why her mother ended up leasing her. Her mother thought she was crazy, that…
198
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:33.780
Carey Williams: You know, as old as she was, then getting on this horse that's gone prelim, and she's like, you're insane.
199
00:25:33.780 --> 00:25:47.900
Carey Williams: But she knew Mickey would take good care of her, and Mickey did take very good care of anybody who rode her and leased her, and she had several other, you know, half leases at the same time that my trainer's mother did. And ultimately now, you know, my…
200
00:25:48.050 --> 00:25:56.589
Carey Williams: trainer's mother has had her for 15 years now, and it treats her like she's her own. And that's now much easier for me.
201
00:25:56.590 --> 00:26:16.999
Carey Williams: to trust her to say, you know, look, when you're ready to completely retire her and say you no longer want, you know, control, and she should no longer be ridden anymore, you know, I'll help with that decision, but, you know, ultimately it comes down to her safety, just like it did mine years ago, you know, in terms of stepping down, when do you think it's unsafe?
202
00:26:17.320 --> 00:26:29.070
Carey Williams: I can still go out there, and there's days where, I can throw her the buckle, I can hop on, and we can ride for half hour, 40 minutes, an hour, whatever.
203
00:26:29.070 --> 00:26:41.960
Carey Williams: and just enjoy the sights and sounds, but then there's days that I go out there, and believe me, I need my seat, I need my reins, and I need to be like, oh, okay, she feels good today, and let's go see what you got.
204
00:26:42.250 --> 00:26:52.590
Carey Williams: And, you know, I don't mind playing that game of, what do you want to do today? Because, you know, I know when she feels good, let's use it, and when she doesn't, it's…
205
00:26:52.590 --> 00:27:02.399
Carey Williams: like Nettie said, they don't… they don't owe you anything at this point, other than, you know, a happy ending, and whenever that is, let's try to make it pain-free, so…
206
00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:15.539
Carey Williams: And yes, Mickey's on all the same things. I think she's on an Equiox as well, she's on, you know, Pergolide and all of that stuff as well, but, it's very well maintained. I never have to worry about…
207
00:27:15.540 --> 00:27:24.549
Carey Williams: her care where she is now, and I think that really, really helps the… this decision of… of where they go when they're, you know, in the process of retirement.
208
00:27:25.280 --> 00:27:30.919
Nettie Liburt: Yep. I had that experience this weekend. We were trotting and cantering around the ring, and the next day, he was like, nope.
209
00:27:35.890 --> 00:27:49.859
Kris Hiney: So how did… how did you feel, like, stepping back, or… I mean, Kiri, you had some… probably some expectations and goals for your horse. Nettie, did you have to kind of shift what your thought process was?
210
00:27:49.860 --> 00:27:59.139
Nettie Liburt: Yeah, I mean, I… I really wanted to keep kind of going to some shows here and there, but…
211
00:27:59.250 --> 00:28:04.109
Nettie Liburt: where I live in the Northeast, it's expensive to keep a horse.
212
00:28:04.460 --> 00:28:06.480
Nettie Liburt: And it made it…
213
00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:14.860
Nettie Liburt: So, I have one. So for some of the listeners that are home, like, oh, I have 10 in the backyard, I have one. And that's what I…
214
00:28:15.030 --> 00:28:30.010
Nettie Liburt: can financially handle where I live. So, I am fortunate that I'm able to take lessons on my trainer's other absolutely wonderful school horses, but in that process, it's like, well, this is…
215
00:28:30.820 --> 00:28:37.659
Nettie Liburt: my horse that I have to ride, and… or this is the only horse I have to ride right now, and what…
216
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:48.669
Nettie Liburt: really is best for him versus me. Like, yes, I wanna, you know, ride, and I wanna do some jumps, and go to some shows, but that's not where he's at anymore.
217
00:28:48.910 --> 00:28:55.230
Nettie Liburt: But… I also felt that I mean…
218
00:28:55.810 --> 00:28:59.869
Nettie Liburt: Again, it was important to keep him active.
219
00:29:00.070 --> 00:29:12.530
Nettie Liburt: And not necessarily in the same way how I used to define him being active, whereas, you know, we're gonna lesson every other week, or we're gonna ride 3 or 4 times a week. Like, literally putting on the saddle, going for a walk.
220
00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:21.969
Nettie Liburt: you know, maybe I'll do some lateral stuff with him at the walk to kind of try to keep him flexible, and he seems very okay with that, right? I don't get…
221
00:29:22.690 --> 00:29:33.529
Nettie Liburt: So, it was… it's not easy, especially when, like, okay, this is the only horse I have to ride, you know, what's best for him. So I tried to find that medium in what is still good for him.
222
00:29:33.570 --> 00:29:46.270
Nettie Liburt: But also makes me feel like I still get to ride a little bit. And if I had any indication that he… and I still look for it, like, if there's any indication that he is not comfortable with me getting on his back, then I'll stop. But…
223
00:29:46.270 --> 00:29:54.000
Nettie Liburt: For now, he seems to be just fine with that, but it's hard. It's very hard, especially if it's your only horse.
224
00:29:54.280 --> 00:30:04.730
Carey Williams: Yeah, I will say that that did help me. One, the fact that I could lease her out and not have to… and it was a free lease. I didn't make any money on the leases.
225
00:30:04.730 --> 00:30:15.109
Carey Williams: You know, some of you out there might think I was crazy, because I've heard of paid leases, and I was like, how does that work? But never did that, but I at least didn't have to pay her bills.
226
00:30:15.110 --> 00:30:22.170
Carey Williams: They were, you know, we were under the agreement that they paid everything, but they didn't pay me.
227
00:30:22.170 --> 00:30:45.169
Carey Williams: And then I was able to get another horse, so that really did help. I had one that I could bring up and compete. I got it off the track at the time, one or two, and now I have a young horse. Even though I've still owned Mickey, I'm still sole owner, need to make the hard decisions, and if there is anything, you know, surgical, it's on me, you know, we've agreed that end of life is on me, you know, so that's still all on me.
228
00:30:45.170 --> 00:31:05.939
Carey Williams: But I don't have to day-to-day care, so it does allow me to have another horse. And yeah, Nettie, I'm… we're not all that far away in terms of geography, so I'm right there with you in terms of it being not cheap. But having those other possibilities for me as a rider were hugely important. Yeah.
229
00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:25.920
Nettie Liburt: It has definitely been helpful. I mean, I've kind of gotten back into it in the last year, year and a half. I just was in a schooling show this weekend, and it… it… I… people have said to me, oh, just send him down south, or send him somewhere where it's cheap to… I can't do that. I am a helicopter horse mom. 100%. I need to see him all the time.
230
00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:26.850
Nettie Liburt: That's…
231
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:36.060
Nettie Liburt: I can't do that. Personally, some people can, and that's fine, but I can't. So… but being able to at least, to…
232
00:31:36.260 --> 00:31:50.999
Nettie Liburt: have the opportunity to ride some of those fantastic school horses and be able to do that has, has been helpful for me mentally, for sure. Because, you know, we're horse people, we're riders, we want to take care of them, and be around them, and enjoy them, and…
233
00:31:51.730 --> 00:31:52.910
Nettie Liburt: All that stuff.
234
00:31:54.160 --> 00:32:06.189
Kris Hiney: So we've kind of been doing, like, personal stories, so now I'll let you off the hook and maybe put your educator hat back on a little bit. So, for those that,
235
00:32:06.320 --> 00:32:20.789
Kris Hiney: have, you know, maybe getting indicators that the horse can't do what he used to do and step it back. But… and I don't want to give the answer away, or maybe just ask your opinion, like, how much… how much exercise…
236
00:32:20.980 --> 00:32:29.600
Kris Hiney: Should we still… Goal try to do with our horses as we back down.
237
00:32:30.410 --> 00:32:50.249
Carey Williams: Well, I can say, you know, horses with arthritis really need to keep moving. So, I mean, I think that's why Mickey's been able to go until she's 28. You know, if there were a point… and I'll step back to COVID, their barn closed completely during COVID, so what was that, 5, 6 years ago now?
238
00:32:50.250 --> 00:32:55.469
Carey Williams: You know, so Mickey was still in her 20s, she still needed to get work, she did have arthritis.
239
00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:13.529
Carey Williams: the lady who leased me leased her, said, you know, can you take her? If your barn is open, she needs to stay riding. And that was probably the best idea she had, and the best thing we did, because I was able to keep her moving and keep her going, because if she were to just…
240
00:33:13.850 --> 00:33:33.069
Carey Williams: stop, I think she would have been done. I don't know that after 6 months of having a closed barn and no riding, that Mickey could have come back from that. And that is the big thing that I think everybody needs to look at as well, is if they do need some downtime for one reason or another, whether it's an eye or lameness,
241
00:33:33.230 --> 00:33:35.780
Carey Williams: How hard is it for you to get them back?
242
00:33:35.850 --> 00:33:55.670
Carey Williams: And, you know, the older they are, the harder it is for them to return. So, you know, work with your vet, work with your trainer, if you have one, you know, get some outside advice, too, so that you can… it is very personal, absolutely, no matter what, but you might need help making that decision.
243
00:33:55.670 --> 00:33:57.020
Nettie Liburt: And that's okay!
244
00:33:57.220 --> 00:34:00.419
Carey Williams: It is okay, absolutely okay.
245
00:34:00.520 --> 00:34:10.349
Carey Williams: But, you know, I think you have to look at that, too. You know, try not to give them downtime, too much downtime, but also try not to push them.
246
00:34:10.350 --> 00:34:25.839
Carey Williams: Outside of their… their comfort, you know? Learn their… you know their behavior, it's been a while, so, you know, hopefully you know their behavior anyway, and take those subtle cues, and I think that's one thing where… where Nettie and I basically have… have…
247
00:34:25.889 --> 00:34:31.419
Carey Williams: Agreed a lot on through this podcast is just to know their behavior and listen to them.
248
00:34:31.839 --> 00:34:45.019
Nettie Liburt: And I want to follow up on something you just said, too, Carrie, about keeping them moving. It's one of the reasons why I do continue to put a saddle on and take him for a walk, and it… I mean, it's weight-bearing for him.
249
00:34:45.049 --> 00:35:01.669
Nettie Liburt: But one of the other rare benefits that I have at the farm where he lives is they will turn them out at night. Which to some of you listening might go, yeah, well, duh, my horse lives outside. But again, in our geographic region.
250
00:35:01.759 --> 00:35:06.529
Nettie Liburt: That's not a thing for a lot of places. So…
251
00:35:06.529 --> 00:35:23.049
Nettie Liburt: you know, the paddocks aren't huge, they're small, the owner lives on the property, so they're not kind of out on their own, but they can come in, have their dinner, and then they go back out at night. Now, if the weather's bad, obviously, you know, we will keep them in, because there aren't shelters in all of the paddocks. But I think…
252
00:35:23.569 --> 00:35:35.189
Nettie Liburt: pretty quickly, I feel like I saw some benefit. He doesn't go out every night, because he does like to sleep, and so when he does go out, he comes in the next day completely very tired.
253
00:35:35.519 --> 00:35:53.419
Nettie Liburt: But I do think that that ability to move around all night and not necessarily be in a stall, even if it's a few nights a week, or occasionally. Now, as the weather is getting nicer here, that's gonna happen more frequently, I think, even in the short amount of time that that's been available to him, that his… that it has made a difference for him.
254
00:35:55.350 --> 00:36:02.659
Carey Williams: Yeah, absolutely. Mickey's in a run-in where she's got full-time in and out, and rarely do they stay in, and that does help out a lot.
255
00:36:02.660 --> 00:36:03.469
Nettie Liburt: That's awesome.
256
00:36:04.300 --> 00:36:19.249
Kris Hiney: So, question then, I mean, so, Carrie, you had… you had Pinky, I think, at the time, or bought Pinky, so of all the stories of… of your horses. And Nettie, it sounds like you at least had some other options provided to you, but what about…
257
00:36:19.300 --> 00:36:34.330
Kris Hiney: the owner that maybe still has a younger horse? Like, how do you balance, like, time? Maybe you don't have the answer for this, but, like, you know, this is my show horse, how do I keep this other guy, like, if there's only so many hours in the day?
258
00:36:35.810 --> 00:36:50.249
Carey Williams: Yeah, and that's why I went the lease route, because I don't, I, you know, obviously have a full-time job, as we all do, and, and, you know, family, you know, four legs and fur, family and a husband, but,
259
00:36:50.390 --> 00:37:04.819
Carey Williams: But, you know, I have other things, and, you know, horses weren't my full-time, you know, they were my hobby, not my job. So, so having others be able to help with that definitely did help.
260
00:37:04.820 --> 00:37:11.510
Carey Williams: If it were just me, I probably would have had to step away from some of the competition of my other horse.
261
00:37:11.570 --> 00:37:27.800
Carey Williams: Just to allow time for both, because, yeah, nights were getting late, work was… was work suffering? Probably not. Probably the horses were suffering more than work, unfortunately, at that time in my life, but now it'd probably be the other way around.
262
00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:48.030
Carey Williams: But, but yeah, it gets hard. Time management is really important. You know, I pride myself in being, you know, not the procrastinator, but I'm pretty good at getting things done, that need to get done, and then moving on, and, that sort of thing. So, but yeah, everybody does, you know, work, life.
263
00:37:48.030 --> 00:37:58.719
Carey Williams: you know, horse balance a little bit different. But it would have been very hard for me to have a full competition horse and a full retired horse that I wanted to keep
264
00:37:58.850 --> 00:38:01.969
Carey Williams: Active, along with family and a job.
265
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:21.760
Nettie Liburt: Yeah, that's… all those things are true, and, you know, neither… neither one of us can only have children, so, like, our four-legged creatures are our children for sure, so I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who can very much relate to what you're saying, and I mean, one example, so on days that I have a lesson.
266
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:31.739
Nettie Liburt: I don't always have time to ride two horses. And again, I use the term loosely ride, like, I'm like, yeah, I'm going riding when I take E.T. for his walk, but…
267
00:38:31.740 --> 00:38:45.360
Nettie Liburt: you know, that doesn't mean that I can… that I ignore him, right? I'll just bring him in, I'll give him a grooming, give him a, you know, a carrot or something, so, you know, I still, you know, see him and interact with him, and of course, he…
268
00:38:45.460 --> 00:39:01.779
Nettie Liburt: he's the jealous type, so he feels like he's getting that, but I'm not necessarily taking the extra time to tack up and ride and do all of that. So, you know, with the show horses that may have a more rigorous training schedule,
269
00:39:02.020 --> 00:39:06.869
Nettie Liburt: You know, what days might you have more time? Or sometimes you can dedicate, alright.
270
00:39:06.870 --> 00:39:22.829
Nettie Liburt: Saturday mornings, I'll have extra time at the barn, and we all know what barn time means, but, you know, during the week, I may only have time to do one, or I may not be able to get to the barn at all, and I think… and I struggle with this, too. You have to give yourself a little grace if you can't get there.
271
00:39:22.830 --> 00:39:33.229
Nettie Liburt: It's okay. You know, and sometimes I'll try, like, again, my lesson days are Fridays, so Friday, I still have a full-time job that I have to work, so I…
272
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:43.139
Nettie Liburt: can't… if I… unless I want to be at the barn till 9 o'clock, which I wouldn't complain, but other people in my life might. You know, it's okay if I don't ride that day. If I don't ride…
273
00:39:43.190 --> 00:40:00.100
Nettie Liburt: ET that day. You know, that's why I went out and I rode early this morning before works, because I knew tomorrow's a lesson day, so he'll have tomorrow off and all of that. So, as you said, it's all personal schedule and what you can do, and you can only do what you can do, and that's okay.
274
00:40:01.050 --> 00:40:11.970
Kris Hiney: But I think, you know, Carrie, because you mentioned the lease option, and maybe for those, those people that may know others, you know, horses are expensive, like you both alluded to.
275
00:40:11.970 --> 00:40:21.360
Kris Hiney: But maybe leasing that horse with experience, right? So you still have control over them, but somebody else has the opportunity to interact with a horse that has experience at
276
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:34.310
Kris Hiney: a lower level, a little safer, or a little low-key, might be some… some good alternatives to keep these guys moving and getting a lot of attention from somebody that… that wants to give it to a horse, so…
277
00:40:34.310 --> 00:40:37.420
Nettie Liburt: Yeah, and when that's not an option.
278
00:40:38.650 --> 00:40:49.339
Nettie Liburt: You do what you can do. I'm trying to convince my trainer, I'm like, you could use him for, like, the little kids that need to learn how to do a two-point and do around the world. As long as they feed him a cookie, he'll be fine.
279
00:40:50.440 --> 00:41:05.089
Carey Williams: Yeah, and that's where, you know, I really, really appreciate my trainer, and, you know, she really helped facilitate those, those leases. And there was always a half lease, so, you know, there was usually two people that did, you know, two to three days a week.
280
00:41:05.090 --> 00:41:10.979
Carey Williams: And, you know, she did mon- make sure that, you know, she wasn't getting, you know, jumped
281
00:41:10.980 --> 00:41:25.870
Carey Williams: 5 times a week, and, you know, she really took the role of kind of maintaining that, and, you know, when she needed a day off, she made sure it happened, and that sort of thing. So, because she knew I wasn't able to be there all the time and manage that, and manage the leasees.
282
00:41:25.870 --> 00:41:31.930
Carey Williams: So she really did a lot of it, but she was also getting paid to give the lessons, so she treated it as.
283
00:41:31.930 --> 00:41:46.180
Carey Williams: not her lesson horse, but, you know, she gave the lessons to those that are leasing, so really, in kind of a way, it was her lesson horse, so that was a really big help. And I know, actually, kind of to go another route, my barn right now, where I have
284
00:41:46.180 --> 00:41:54.709
Carey Williams: Palmer, and some of you have heard him already, has… is very active with their leases. She actually owns several horses.
285
00:41:54.730 --> 00:42:11.660
Carey Williams: Which are kind of school horses, kind of the same way, but she does part leases on them. And it could be 2 to 3 people that lease them, and they'll either do, you know, 2 or 3 days a week. And that is a very big part of her business, is with lease horses, because, yeah, horses aren't cheap.
286
00:42:11.660 --> 00:42:30.380
Carey Williams: You know, and hay, and grain, and fuel, and everything is going up. So I think it's become a very good option for people that are busy, that don't have full time for a horse that might have two days a week, and want something regular that they know they can go out and ride on every Monday, Thursday, or whatever, so…
287
00:42:30.380 --> 00:42:31.250
Nettie Liburt: Exactly.
288
00:42:31.790 --> 00:42:34.990
Carey Williams: That's probably a whole other topic for a whole other podcast.
289
00:42:34.990 --> 00:42:35.689
Kris Hiney: They say take a look.
290
00:42:35.690 --> 00:42:41.420
Nettie Liburt: A little bit of that, that, you know… Horse mom guilt away, right?
291
00:42:41.420 --> 00:42:52.380
Kris Hiney: Right, right, because, I mean, I just picture there's a lot of people that would like the opportunity to spend some time, but not that full cost of full ownership, so… okay.
292
00:42:52.760 --> 00:43:12.320
Kris Hiney: Well, thank you, ladies so much for kind of talking with us about your… your journeys of, you know, with some… some pretty, pretty older horses, right? So it sounds like they're doing amazing, and you're taking really good care of them, and, you know, maybe in 5 years, you'll be like, and now they're doing this, so…
293
00:43:12.860 --> 00:43:13.579
Kris Hiney: Oh my god!
294
00:43:14.690 --> 00:43:15.200
Kris Hiney: Absolutely still.
295
00:43:15.200 --> 00:43:17.059
Carey Williams: I had her for another 5 years.
296
00:43:17.210 --> 00:43:23.919
Nettie Liburt: Yes, I hope so. I… yeah, my horse saw the exact same personality, so, like, to think, like.
297
00:43:24.100 --> 00:43:28.180
Nettie Liburt: The personality and the physicality, like, aren't matching anymore.
298
00:43:28.290 --> 00:43:31.560
Nettie Liburt: It's another challenge, so…
299
00:43:31.560 --> 00:43:46.460
Kris Hiney: I get it, so… Well, again, appreciate your time in giving us updates of E.T. and Mickey. Glad they're still doing so well, and that they've educated us on so many things, so that's always really helpful.
300
00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:47.529
Nettie Liburt: Sure have.
301
00:43:47.530 --> 00:43:56.569
Kris Hiney: You bet. So, I'll let you guys go, and this has been another episode of our Tack Box Talk, Horse Stories with a Purpose.