Mixed Bag with Stephen McNamara

Deniese and Frank chat with CEO of Paralympics Ireland, Stephen McNamara

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Mixed Bag is currently sponsored by Refined Barbershop Main Street Granners. You can follow Refined Barbershop Granners on Instagram and a big thank you to owner Shane. So every episode we have the conversations with sports guys and stories of sports and the ISU and now Paralympics Ireland. This man has made an impact wherever he works. Ireland has enjoyed great success at Paralympic Games, and I'm sure he's already looking forward to LA in two years' time. And Frank was talking just before we started recording about you and him with the aviation. So I could just imagine like, is this like top gun kind of style?

SPEAKER_02 1:04

I think it's more survivors unite. I think anybody who's I first of all, look, let me just start by saying thank you so much for inviting me on. Uh it's a pleasure uh to be with you and congratulations on season three. Uh no small feat. Uh I look forward to another successful season for you guys. Um, but yeah, just turning just turning to aviation, yeah. And I I I do laugh. Uh it and I think Frank will probably attest to this. Aviation is such an amazing industry to work in, but it will chew you up, and if you're not careful, it'll spit you out because it's it's so the work is so magnetic in it. You want to be at the forefront of it, you want to be uh involved in it in it, um, that you actually kind of completely lose track of the number of hours. I I would say the number of people working in aviation and putting in you know 70, 80 hours a week without even realizing it is absolutely uh huge uh because it's just so exciting to work in, and and I'd say for you to probably feel the same.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

100%, but you don't watch Stevens as well, and it's not that we're shorter age or anything, but we probably worked in aviation when it was probably a bit more relaxed in some ways than it is now as well. You know, it was sometimes like a well, we were involved, like I remember first time I ever flew like on a buddy pass, you know, as an extra traffic controller season done. Is that is that in the jump sequence to crew, you know? Yes, like the the air says part you're free drinks because you were in air traffic controller and now like you probably need you know, you need different medications to get anywhere near play, you know. But we we probably came from a much more relaxed time even in some ways, a much more fun time, Stephen, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Well, I I'll agree and disagree, Frank, if that's okay. Because firstly, fun, absolutely. It was the ride of my life working in Ryanair, but relaxed, I cannot say it was relaxed enough. No, it was um but you know the reality is, and anybody I mean, I've obviously I went to work in in Ryanair and worked directly with Michael. And you you've got to know what you're getting into when you take a job like that. And you get a huge it it was the job that set me on the course for the rest of my life, and I knew that going into it. Um, but I got good advice going into it. And that, you know, uh I actually my my former boss who who was going to try and keep me from moving to Ryanair, but then said, you know what? If I was your age, I'd go and do it. It's gonna be phenomenal. But he gave me some really great advice. A guy called Ray Gordon, he said to me, look, give yourself a time frame. Like, no, you're going in there and you're gonna you're gonna be there for three years. So my goal was three years, but I actually loved it so much I stayed for five. Um, and I only sort of moved out of it because I felt that in some ways I was kind of being left behind in some areas. Because when I was in Ryanair, it was very much a traditional media model we were following, and we were really, really good at it, but we weren't great, and and it wasn't the right time for Ryanair to be looking really at socials. Now there were great people in there. Michael himself was knew that we would eventually go down the road of socials. There was a guy called Dara who's still with Ryanair, actually head of marketing at the time, and he was mad keen to get into socials, and so was I. Um, but we it just wasn't the right time. So I just had a fear that if I didn't move sort of quick, I'd be left behind in that new media space.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Um, Stephen, would it be fair to say in some ways how Mike himself was built for social, really, wasn't he?

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I think Michael, I I think Michael, Michael's certainly the best communicator I've ever worked with. And um there is, and I and I mean this in a really respectful way, I mean this, and it it can be taken as a disrespectful way, but he's a great communicator in in the same shape I would say as Donald Trump is a great communicator. They're very different people, their messages are very different, but they know how to cut through and get their message across to stay on brands, to stay on message. Michael, I think, is uh is is uh I'd say a case study in a lot of universities. Actually, a few people have said to me that they'd studied various different parts of the Ryanair model, and uh, you know, my time in it has come up because we went through so much. We went through the Ash Cloud, we tried to buy Erlingus, like all of these crazy things that were just like brilliant to work in. Um but it is, it's definitely, I think now the the personality that that Ryanair has on its socials is very close to Michael's.

SPEAKER_00 5:34

But you know what, isn't it? It's very I was gonna say to you, Stephen, uh, would you be as witty and smart and sarky as because everyone says that, and I've noticed Dublin Airport as well has kind of moved into that too, and some of their answers to people absolutely brilliant. And even with Scotland and Ireland and the rugby, they're having the bit of crack with the IRFU and Edinburgh Airport. But the Ryanair tweets on that, so many people message me and send me them. Did you see this? Like whoever does it, absolutely brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yes, it it is brilliant, and it and there's uh I'm not sure who's doing it now on the socials. I know there was a few changes there a little while back, but the reality is is that and and this is why it works, it's because that is the culture of Ryanair, that is the voice of the CEO. It's it's irreverent, it it's still respectful. But the best thing, and the thing that I always an awful lot of people don't realize this about Ryanair, and Michael used to say it all the time. Michael apologizes all the time for things. If Michael gets something wrong, he'll hold his hands up and he'll say, I got that wrong, and he'll move on quickly, and you know, it in itself will become a story for a while. But there's kind of this suggestion that they don't apologize for things, and when when you're in a fast-paced environment like that, you you know you move quick, you break things, and you get on with it, you know. Uh and sorry, Stevie, do you not think nothing but respect for it?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Do you not think though that the Ryanair Twitter account and their social medias they're Ireland really? Because I was over in Scotland for a few days and we were slagging my mum and we're having a bit of crack, and like I said, it's an Irish thing. We have banter, we have the crack with each other, and I think it is the Irish banter, and you have to get that way.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

We absolutely you're totally right, Denise. And I suppose that was really typified for me when so I used to travel every week to one of the destinations that Ryanair flies to. Um uh, you know, we'd fly in and we'd do a press conference, then we'd fly in somewhere else on the way home, we'd do another press conference, and it was all just to build publicity into the uh sales for the for new routes, and to if there was an areas trunk, wherever we I wherever we showed up, you can bet your life, that's where the the routes were either being launched or weren't selling, and we were there to you know uh to try and get them moving, and they always did. But in doing that, there would be situations where, for example, Michael would make a quip that in the UK and Ireland we would know was completely you know a joke. But in in Germany, for example, they take it really seriously. And I the one that really sticks in my mind at that time was the stand-up seating. You know, we were going to start charging and we're gonna start getting Boeing to adapt the planes, to put up stand to put in stand-up seating, and we'd get, and Michael is brilliant at this because he talks the business model of it. You know, we get X number of extra seats, we we get X number of revenue, it'll make the flights, and he'd always get back the number one message. It will make the flights cheaper for everybody. And they lapped it up. But I spent a year down kind of leaning into the joke, but also saying to people, because look, it's aviation, and the the number one thing Reiner will never joke about is safety. So I would lean into it, but also say at the end of it, you know, I don't think it's gonna happen. I don't think we'd ever actually get regulatory approval for this. And it's not something that Boeing are actually developing. So you still needed to like outline to people that like there's a nudge nudge wink wink about this, but we'll take the publicity, thank you very much, and make sure to make sure to let everybody know that the seats are just a five participant.

SPEAKER_01 8:47

The safety thing is really it's really interesting, spin on it, Steve, because I think that's spin on it, that's unfair to say the safety thing because my career was an aircraft controller, so safety, all regulation, that was our meat and drink. But what people didn't realize was oh, at that time I would have felt all Ryanair needed was one little safety glitch. Yeah, and the share price would have dropped because what I mean, are it not all airy later, cowboy? What would you expect? Yeah, well, it just fed into that. So safety had to be paramount, hadn't it?

SPEAKER_02 9:20

Well, Frank, you're totally right. And that for me is and that's the number one thing at the back of White Cloak. Anybody who works in aviation and an airline has uh prep like there's there's manuals for the preparation for crisis communications, there's manuals for you know, it's taken extremely seriously, and the best airlines in the world, like Reiner, would never take a chance with safety because they know that taking well, first of all, you're you're risking people's lives. And I think Irish people and Michael in particular is is uh very much on that side. First and foremost, it's a passenger is a human, you know. We don't do cargo or we didn't do cargo. So that was always the first consideration. But ultimately, really, I was working with people like Mick Hickey, who was who was on uh on on the safety side. And you know, like when you know these people, and we used to bring Mick out the odd time, you know, uh if there was ever an issue. Um, when you know these people, you know, flying with the safest airline in the world. Like there's there's no doubt about it, and they have an amazing record. But you did always in the back of your mind, you know, when you saw an incident elsewhere, think to yourself, Jesus, imagine that was us, and that's that does keep you awake at night, you know, it does. But also, Frank, and you know this what the public don't really realize, and what the media love to talk about is things like go-arounds, bird strikes, and actually, yeah, they happen a lot.

SPEAKER_01 10:43

Oh, they're they're they're they're uh they're standard operating procedures, Stephen Hardy. You know, a go-around in the standard, but it's funny what you say about cargo, actually. The one airport that cargo was in uh, believe it or not, Stephen Young is was it knocked. And it was the transport of bodies back.

SPEAKER_02 11:01

That's right. So that was an agreement that he put in place. And again, Michael had a huge affinity to Knock, actually, didn't he?

SPEAKER_01 11:08

He had to absolutely I I always said what Michael, he always remembered when nobody was kind of really back in the model senior, and Nock kind of bought back his model a little bit and put her put her with whatever little bit of weight they had behind him. And I don't think Michael ever forgot that either. He always seemed to have an affinity and a little bit of a soft spot, even even to this day, like outside of kind of Dublin, but Nock is about the only place where Reiner staff actually do the handling and all that kind of stuff. And we're else he sublended for it, but he he had a little soft spot for the West of Ireland, didn't he?

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah, he does. And look, Michael is fiercely proud of being Irish. Like he's still and and I and I love this about Michael, he still lives in Ireland, his family are here in Ireland, he's put money into the horse racing industry, he is very active in his community. This this rugby is a big passion of his as well, Stephen. Big passion is, yeah, big passion it is. He loves the rugby and he's been very good to Mull and Gar rugby club, uh, I believe. Now that Michael is uh Michael never wants any plaudits for anything like that. So a lot of those things usually uh you know they happen without anybody knowing and he and he doesn't he doesn't pick himself up about or anything like that, but he is he's a he's a great he's a he's an all-round good guy. Is he hard to work for? Absolutely. Is he an unbelievably focused businessman? Unquestionably. But that's there's we're just lucky that actually was in the name of loyalty in him too.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

If you were lying to him, he was loyal to you. Absolutely. I mean in Reiner all day long for you as long as he knew you had his back.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

That's what I'm saying. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. We had the there's a famous weekly meeting that we used to have every Monday, and and ever somebody would get the uh hairdryer treatment every Monday. It was uh it was to be expected, it was part of the if you like, it was part of the game. It was you know, his way Michael was a great leader in in that he um he made people always know that he knew that there was more in you that you could do better. And he did that in a strange way, of kind of he would I wouldn't say you'd go as far as um every say month or so he'd he'd have a go at you over something, but it was time. Like he would definitely know I need I need to I need to make him better again, I need to push him harder again by having a go at him over something. And and if you got something wrong, he would have you down the banks on it, but then he would forget it.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

But isn't that something, Stephen, that makes you as a person is I know you don't want your boss to kind of come down on you, but it also makes you stronger, it makes you know what. And if a boss does that with you, you know in some ways that they actually believe in you.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Well, that's exactly it, Denise. And what it really is, and it does translate into support. I think what you're seeing at the moment in in relation to Arsenal is that that's a team that's afraid to make a mistake and to lose.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Don't mention Arsenal to Frank.

SPEAKER_02 13:54

Yeah, well look, I mean, I I I I I think the premiership this year is is is hugely fascinating. And do you know what? Who do you support Stephen? I I I I'm a Man United supporter, but I'll whisper it. I will whisper it. I'll say, I actually wouldn't mind if Arsenal won it this year. Now, if it stops City from winning it, which by the way is my O'Leary's team, then then all the better. But but what you see there is, and what Michael did and what the good leaders do is they ensure you know they don't want you to make a mistake, but if you make a mistake, it's absolutely okay. And I think Andy Farrell has probably got that formula right in the Irish rugby team at the moment as well. That's a team of players now who know if I make a mistake, I'm not gonna hear about it for like, you know, three days afterwards. Um and I love that about Michael. You could genuinely make a mistake, it could be a huge mistake, it could be a costly mistake. But once he had it out with you in the office and you went back out to your desk, it w it was done. He never ever bore a grudge, he never brought it up again. Um, but he ensured that you knew that he'd have your back.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

Now, what we try to do in sport all the time as well, create that culture to create a race to the top rather than a race to the bottom.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

I think it is that. But it's only that's only possible when you 100% believe in the calibre of what you're working with. Or, and this is also true, and and and there's a place for this, if you're getting the best out of what you might feel or know, are maybe limited in some respects. And I suppose in that respect, what you would look at is the Jack Charlton years. You know, we had a fantastic group of players at that stage, with a lot of them playing at the top flight. But actually, Jack was able to get the best out of those players. They weren't they weren't the best team in the world. They weren't there was some there were some of the best players in the world when you think of the names that were there. When actually he brought them together as a collective and was able to get the most out of them. And uh I think probably at the start of Joe Schmidt's time in the Irish rugby team, I think he had to do the same thing because I think we had a great group of players who had you know proved themselves and then doubt set in.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

And when doubt when doubt gets into a team, and the Irish media love this, you're up or you're down, it's a feast or a famine. You know, and the amount of times that you know, uh probably Joe got something extra out of players by actually knowing them knowing that he believed in them, but actually he was giving them the formula. If you follow this formula, we will win.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And uh Isn't it all about psychology though, Stephen, isn't it? When you look at it, and even now with the Gaelic Games, Frank, and you probably have noticed it over the last couple of years, and we're no longer time when we won our first cup in 2003. Alan Matthews had Ender McNulty and talking to them, and I know that um Limerick have a psychologist, and I know that um Armah had one too, and everything is a very good thing. This is the this yeah, this is this is the big thing now about about psychology because I think as Irish people, yeah, we believe in ourselves, but we still have that little bit of a doubt, don't we, Ray?

SPEAKER_02 16:49

I think that's true of all sports people, actually. I think even you know uh and you only really find that out from them when they retire. You know, um I think that the best that I've seen, or probably the most surprising, and it's caught us all off guard that I've seen over the last number of years, is somebody like Daniel Wiff. So Daniel has come out and he said, I'm gonna win. Not um not only am I gonna win this race, I'm gonna set a world record. And as Irish people, we're like, oh gee, no, you pull it back in a bit there because we're worried for him. Because if it goes wrong, we you know, you'd be like, oh geez, if it goes wrong for him now it'd be terrible. But actually, that's part of his psychological breath, I'd imagine. If he doesn't believe that of himself, then how can he go and achieve it?

unknown 17:28

And I love that. I'm just an argument that left Stephen then out on the street with that as he did.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Who'd that he think he was? That's that's exactly what we all hold from our school days and and the whole fundamental.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

That's it, yeah. Oh, look at your man over there, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Exactly. There's probably something in the background of Daniel's family and Daniel's psychological safety growing up, maybe even the fact that he was a twin.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Well, you know what, that's he he's definitely used to ups and downs if that's the case. But but it's interesting that theory as well that you you were talking about, Stephen. I remember like, and you'll know this from your rugby days as well. Clive Woodward talked an awful lot about that with the English rugby team, didn't he? But the whole synergy about the will of it the will of the team is greater than some of the will of the individuals within the team, you know. So and it's so it's so true.

SPEAKER_00 18:24

But look it through Frank. You know, and I'm now analysing you because Frank was a m well, Frank is a manager, but Frank, I got to know Frank Stephen when he was manager of Longford Thurlers, and he was telling me about these guys and that they were both he was going to win a Lori Marr with them and all this, and I see us getting thumped over in Warwickshire and I see Warkshire hammer us in the in the Lorry Marr final, I was thinking, Ah, this chap now really has and he got us. He got us and we got we stayed up and all because of Frank.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

We I didn't it wasn't because of me because I did I didn't walk across the line. I didn't feel the smack of the ash and the back of my hand, but we we built it's kinda like, you know, and you see this, I bet you all the time in in even in Paralympics Ireland, cul you only realise how important culture is, Stephen, when you don't have opportunities, you know. You only realise how crucial culture is to an organization or a team or a sport when when you're in a place with a bad culture or a place that doesn't have any kind of culture. But that is that a challenge for you then in in Paralympic Ireland, like bringing that culture. I think or is it there and you only need to home in that more?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

The funny thing about working in sport is there is it's almost unsaid that of what the type of culture is that you expect to have in sport. And if I look back at my time, the the culture I had in Reiner was very different than the culture that Philip Brown would have had uh when he was leading uh rugby and when I was working in the rugby. And then the culture that when I was moving into Paralympics, what what I wanted to do was to bring an element of both of those things. And actually, when I went in there I in into Paralympics, I realized that actually a sporting culture really needs to have that space where, and and I'm really big on this, and actually, Sport Ireland, even yesterday, Una May was saying, you know, it's not all about medals. If it's all about medals, then the culture is is wrong. It leads you an athlete up and at least a bit about it. And actually, if it's it's all about medals and the culture doesn't do that, and I'm gonna say this very carefully, then there's actually something wrong within the systems because if it's all about medals, then it it then it has to be ruthless. But actually, sports can't be like that because even uh you know, even when you look at the challenges that a sports might have to overcome, their culture is what gets them through it. And if you look at what rugby had to go through with the concussion, and by the way, like you know, when I was in the rugby, I was getting data in and we were straight out to say, right, we need to talk about this, we need to get out, talk to young players, talk to like um, I can't remember you guys uh back in the 80s, there was a slogan in if I came out of the UK to do with drugs, if you don't talk to your kids about drugs, somebody else will. And I remember saying to Eddie Wigglesworth at the time, if we don't talk to kids about concussion, somebody else is going to, you know, basically leaning into that idea that we have to control the narrative here because actually we can tell people, first of all, we were concerned about it like everybody else was, but also we know that we can make the game safer by by monitoring by and we worked with Rod McLaughlin on that in the IRFU, who was just phenomenal at the time. But the culture in the IRFU at the time was absolutely we have to do this. It wasn't, oh God, don't mention that now because Kate might stop playing rugby. It was this is the right thing to do. Uh we were given out, we were given out concussion cards at uh Leinster School Cup finals, uh, under 20 matches. And people some of the people were saying to us, hey, are you crazy giving these eggs? You're gonna you're gonna scare the parents. And we're like, no, no, we're not. We're gonna educate the parents. And actually that's more important. Like if we educate the parents and a kid, a kid is the best thing that could happen. And I remember Rod McLaughlin saying this at the time. Rod Rod was the medical director in the IRS here. I think he's still there actually. Um, and he said, We will know we've changed the culture in rugby when people applaud the player for coming off with a head injury, not for going not for going back on. We need to get rid of that hardman approach. And in fairness, the players, people like Brian O'Driscoll, really leaned in and bought into that.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

You know, the idea numbers playing the game, Stephen now. Amanda, my friend, she plays it now when she comes in with knocks, and and it makes her more determined every time she comes home with a knock or something like that, that she wants that she does want to play the game. The IRFU, what was it like working there? I know it's changed so much, and um I love Schmidt and I love going over to pr and I remember you know going over to launches with Eddie O'Sullivan and then Joe Schmidt, but um I'm a rugby league fan, I'm a massive rugby league fan. So with Andy Farrell yeah, Andy Farrell being there, um then I was absolutely delighted. In the last number of years, you've seen how much it has grown in all aspects. I know unfortunately England are just one step ahead of the women in but even the women's game, how much it has improved over the years.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

Yeah, well, you know, and a lot of a lot of that growth happened in the time that I was there. There were there were challenges, and specifically, I would say, in relation to the women's game. My KPIs when I started in the IRFU, I I sat down with Philip Brown and uh Pork Slattery, who who I still think works with them in the comms area, and we talked about a couple of challenges that I saw that were there. You know, the the concussion thing was coming down the road, we need to get on top of that. You know, the IRFU were very uh were very interested in trying to build a profile of the women's game. It it really didn't have a profile, I'll be honest, when when I started there, and that's not from the IRFU's point of view, it was just it just there was no interest from the media, there was or TE hadn't broadcast a game, it was you know, it wasn't getting any interest. And it was the same across all women's sport at the time. And I think actually, kids that are growing up nowadays, like my nieces are active in sport, they don't realize it was like that. They it's almost like, what were you thinking? What were people thinking? And we're like, they weren't. That's the reality, they weren't thinking.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

That's in the recent past goes well, Stephen. Is it that's not in the distant past? Like, that's in I I think you know lady football would be a huge thing. Yeah, I I think one of the game changers for ladies, but ladies' football, Stephen, was Little coming on board in kind of 2015, 2016. And suddenly you had this huge similar to Ryan, you know, a really slick marketing department that did Little putting their weight behind ladies' football and putting their, you know, suddenly we were walking down George's road, go to Crook Park, they were seeing uh, you know, posters advertising ladies' football and and making we saw it under tellies, and it was an absolute game changer, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 24:50

It really was. And that that whole and I remember the way they launched their first thing, something to do with having a pink ball, or it was yeah, uh and they really leaned into the controversial elements of it, and they've done really well since. But what I would say in relation to that sponsorship, and as the market matures, and and sponsors need to look at this as well, and I'm and I'm not specifically speaking about little in this respect, yeah. Being being involved and being and and and promoting the women's game is is is really where it's after the sponsors nowadays. They want to be seen to be involved and they're spending an awful lot of money on the activation element of it. But actually, the dial will only really change when, for example, the players and the organization, be it the FAI, the IRFU, the GEA, or whoever, are also getting a sponsorship revenue that's not necessarily the same as the men, because there's still differences there, which we could speak forever about and probably disagree on some things and agree on other things. But until the actual values go up from the sponsors into the games, then there's still that unlevel playing field. Like there really is. You know, if if you're if you're looking at uh, you know, what actually goes into the the organizations, the governing bodies directly from the sponsor as opposed to what they spend on activation, that's a that would be a really interesting metric to try and understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, and and and this is something that I need to say label football as well. Yeah. And also I think we have to get to a point as well where, and we talk about this a lot on the podcast where people are not going uh I go to that match to support the girls. They're going to the game to see high performance female athletes playing in a really, really good sport in a really good sport spectacle. Not, you know, and I say say with Ireland they're in the next com, you know, and over 9,000 people there, you know, we should be going to support Ireland as high performance female athletes who can win a triple crown, who can win a grand slam. Not Harold, we better go there and, you know, give the old girls a shout, because that's very condescending, Stephen.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Frank, the best game the best game I have seen in the last number of years, guys, and I've covered a lot of Gaelic football, uh, men's and ladies, was a junior schools game down in Elfi. Myself and Desi Dolan from Westmead said it was probably one of the best, it was football the way Frank, it should be played. You had your backs, you had your forwards, you had you know wanted to play, whatnot to play with the ball. And it was absolutely, and I said, you know what? If you want to showcase our game and show what it's all about, show that these are the type of players, this is the type of game, as you said, Frank. And some of the ladies' games I've been to in recent years have been just as good as the men's games.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Well, some of them are better. If I I think probably apart from the games that I've been involved in, obviously, if I've been there, you know, with the Irish team at the time and we, you know, win a grand slam or whatever, obviously, you know, you're or if you're in Twickenham and you win, it's brilliant. But actually, the one of the best rugby matches that I was ever at, and part of because it was hugely emotional as well, was when we had held we hosted the World Cup here, the Women's uh World Cup, and the England New Zealand final of that was a game of rugby that I don't think I will ever see the likes of again. It was phenomenal, to the point where actually you just enjoyed it from the spectacle of sport from your physical physicality.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

What sex would play and you actually watched it as a game, yes.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Exactly. The athletes on that pitch were not thinking I'm female, I'm male, or nobody in the fans were going, are these great female players?

SPEAKER_01 28:26

They were just going, This match stuff that happened in that game was phenomenal. But doesn't that lead us into Stephen, you know, the whole the whole area of equality, be it equality between, you know, a paralympic athlete and Olympic athlete or a female hurler and a female footballer, and a you know, we've that whole, we still have to kind of move into that debate as well. And if it it's a country, don't we? Stephen, you know, that's that's a big bookbear of yours, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 28:58

You're 100% correct. And actually, well, I the language that I've used as I moved into Paralympics is and and and and I do it intentionally because I'm also because I'm showing that it can be done. It can use language.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

Yeah, and people understand when you're when you're able to explain something by comparing it to something else. So the journey that Paralympics and and disability sport needs to go on in the next 10 years is the journey that women's sport has been on for the last 10 years. Now, within that, there are obviously different parameters. There's women are 50% of the population, people with disability don't have that same, you know, that same uh number uh uh in in terms of uh the population, so you know, the expectations around what that is. But what we're actually saying within that when we say that is, and I remember when Ellen Keane came home, Ellen Keane came home from the Paralympics, and she be she she 100% beautifully captured it. Ortie had done a phenomenal job uh of the Paralympics, there's no doubt about it. But it was still very different than the way they presented the Olympics. And Ellen and Ellen commented on that, and a lot of people kind of leaned into the well, she's a little bit ungrateful there, you know, or kind of went on the Well, no, but Ortie did a great job.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

But what she was saying.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

But she wasn't being ungrateful. Ellen was so grateful for the coverage that the sports had got, but she was still saying it, but it's still different, and and it is, and actually the the tipping point for women's sport was when men obviously, you know, some men were already on the journey, but others went, you know what, actually, I do need to, particularly the male players in different codes, you know, like what why isn't there a woman in this photo shoot? Not just the PR person at the sideline going, you know what, actually we're we've a jersey lunch, we should probably have a woman. The players were starting to say, Well, actually, we should have, you know, we should have a woman and a man, and we should have a junior player. And when when that happens, when you start getting people who become ambassadors for the sport, then that's really important. And what I'm trying to start saying now, because we're on that journey, is actually all of those women who've been at the forefront of getting the space for women's sport also need to come on this journey with us. So and and actually they are phenomenal. When I look at the the athletes, whether you know, over the last number of months and the last year or so, been at a lot of different award ceremonies, and people like Kate O'Connor speak to people like Orla Cumberford, and they see each other as peers, and that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 31:33

But did you not find that, Stephen, though, even with the Paralympics, and it's only in recent years that it has really been so old because it was always kind of the uh the second part of oh, I was extremely lucky, and I tell you, Frank, if you ever get the chance to do it, and please God, we will. We have so many things we want to do. Go to a Paralympic Games, go and see these athletes. Like I was so lucky. I went in 2012, I got involved, I know March, and that's how I know Stephen, and I was here with Michael McKill won his um Olympic medal in the Olympic Stadium, and here I'm being there, and I got to meet so many people, Jason or the barrier every day back to the Irish house, and you mix with them and everything, and it's just absolutely they're just incredible athletes, they really are, Stephen, and that's how I came to love a sport, and that's why a boccia, I absolutely love it, because I have made friends for life out of it. You've got fantastic athletes, they're not just fantastic athletes, they're coaches, the people behind them, the parents, the likes of yourself too, Stephen.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

Well, yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think for me, really, and look, Paris was without a doubt the professional highlight of my career. Here there were times where I was standing, I couldn't believe that I was part of it. I couldn't believe I was kind of like sitting thinking at times, how did I get so lucky? How did I get to be involved in this thing that's bigger than all of us? And I mean I don't mean that in the pies, you know, bigger than all of us, but like it is important. Sport always has the ability to change, whether it's I remember during COVID, like the government were very were very much leaning into the sports organizations. Can you guys help with the messaging around, particularly young people, you know, stay at home, wash your hands, whatever it was. And we did. And the reason is that is that the power of that sport has can make a difference and can make a change. And that's what inspires me about you know the the Paralympic movement is it's fundamentally based on performance and it's based on, you know, and it's tough, I'll be honest, it is still tough.

SPEAKER_03 33:30

Like, you know, the the the best the best get to go.

SPEAKER_02 33:33

A lot of people are disappointed. It's high performance sport, it's very, very hard for uh you know the personal journey of people.

SPEAKER_01 33:41

I would have thought maybe one of the highlights of your professional careers of persuading people to pull there was actually in Paris, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

What I said earlier that I used to fly around Europe with Mike and I didn't actually say any of the destinations because if had I, I would have expected you to say, well, you didn't really go to Paris nice, even you went to Boeing. But but but no, that's exactly that's exactly the same principle. So what you what you've identified there, and what the principle of that is, and what the principle of sport is, and a lot of people don't know about perception, yeah. But it they're all products, and actually people don't think of people don't think of sport naturally, they don't think of sport as a product. But when it gets to the serious level, when it gets to a Paralympic Games, when it gets to the IRFU, you know, Six Nations, when it gets to the women's the women's game in the Aviva is currently at around 20,000 tickets, all right? So the IRFU are doing a phenomenal job there because they are treating that as a this is a product that we need to sell. And you can bet your life they've had targets. Poric power, one of the best in the business, will have grown that target campaign on campaign, year on year, knowing exactly what you said, Frank, that no matter what he does, no matter what any of the people working in the organization do to try and say to people this is available, it's actually on the players on the pitch to put in the performances that convince people do you know what? Actually, I'll go along to that.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It's like the women's soccer team. They've actually become they've actually become fashionable now. Like you know, when you see little girls going instead of saying, Who's your favourite player? Oh, well, it's TriPirate or it's such a way, oh, it's Katie, oh Serchia. Now we were very lucky that we had um Sir Shanoon on the on the podcast before, and I got to know Search, and I love watching her. The fact that she's playing for Celtic just is absolutely brilliant as well. But it's great to see young girls now are looking up and saying that their favourite footballers are these ladies. And even for the I was looking at Longford that had uh pen pictures, you know, of of the Longford team, and you know, every one of them was saying who their toughest supporter was but who their biggest influence was. It was all it was, you know, all these little female athletes or female players that we know.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yeah, absolutely. Steven though there, because you had brilliant role models like in in parallel, you know, Ellen Kay, Arnold Comfort, Michael McKilleb, Jason Smith. You know, you really had brilliant role models to you to kind of start building that on. Well, fantastic athletes and fantastic people, and really said it, but then about the athletes, Frank.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

These are brilliant people.

SPEAKER_02 36:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That that's exactly it. I think I think the reality of what it is, and sort of just I know we're we're jumping from one thing to the other, but this is this is our podcast.

SPEAKER_00 36:26

We have we have no we have no running harder.

SPEAKER_02 36:29

But this is what's brilliant about your podcast, is that it's actually a conversation and and and life is not linear. You you you take things with you as you go along, which is why like even you know, if we lean back into um if we lean back into you know the time that the IRFU held the women's rugby world cup here, like that was a phenomenal opportunity, which probably in hindsight, the team probably weren't ready for at the time. And look, there'd be some people that say, well, the IRFU hadn't invested in them or whatever, but the IRFU that was completely in line with his strategy of trying to grow interest in the women's game. And and if you like, you know, put the the the product on the plate and say to people, please, you know, and that's where funnily enough, we were kind of saying to people, come and find out about women's rugby. And and Irish people did, and a lot of them stayed. And and they stayed because the product was good.

SPEAKER_01 37:20

One one of the things we talk about on the podcast too, there, and I think it's really interesting there, but we're talking about the language and all, but TJ Catter as well, I think, has been a game changer in terms of female sport, in terms of sport. Because it's in love with what TJ Cather has shown rugby. It's just rugby po is what it's called. And it can be men's rugby, women's rugby, club rugby, under 12 B rugby, it's rugby PO, and that's what they call it. I think that just sums it up really the same. You know, like to do to do a tremendous job in terms of of promotion of sport, not just lady football, but lady lady sports as well because of TG Car championship, but also rugby, all the sports, you know, the short sport because of sport, not because they have well, we better get a gender quarter right here, we better show it the show sports because people love sport.

SPEAKER_02 38:09

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. I think I in fairness, I think uh TG Car have done a phenomenal job there. There are some there are some things, I'll be honest, I do question. You know, I I do wonder sometimes why because Australian uh now I know there's a lot of people don't even don't even get us started.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

We're not big we're not big fans of it. We're not big fans of it.

SPEAKER_02 38:30

Well, I I I tell you what it is, and and and and probably what it comes down to, and it's a little bit for me. Look, I love football. I have I have the Jack Charlton signed jersey up in my wall frame that I met Jack and the boys years ago with the city.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

I'm learning so much about Stephen McNamara.

SPEAKER_02 38:45

But but what I would say in relation to that is all right, RTE should be covering the rough the the World Cup, the soccer world cup from you know every game, etc., if the Irish team is in it. But they they should they shouldn't be investing as much into it if the Irish team aren't into it, because there'll be a basketball match on at that stage that won't get on the television as a result. There'll be kids jumping into the NAC Aquatic Centre and doing great things for Ireland that won't get on. And and and there's a there's an unfairness there. And and the reality of what that is, and I and I feel it for RTE is that's a really easy product for them to buy. They sit in a studio in Dublin, they take the fees, they've got commentary. It's probably very popular in fairness in terms of the numbers. Some of the lower games, probably not. But if if there is no Irish team in it, why is our national broadcaster showing more games in that Rugby World Cup than the BBC will show when England are in it? So that so we've got to look and say, and this is not to challenge or to say it's wrong. It's what it's to do is to say is how, and I was part of the future uh media commission um who looked at this whole area for sport. How is sport presented in Ireland? And actually, is that appropriate? Not just that it's interesting, like that the soccer world cup is going to be interesting, but actually, would it be better for Irish sport if other things were on at that time? And I don't mean GEA by the way. Yeah, I think the GEA has actually been I think GEA has lost itself in the debate around I think GEA Go and what GEA RTE did with GEA GO was phenomenal, but actually it's it became uh it became a crisis moment for them because everybody in Ireland wants to see everything for free. It's mad. You know, there's more GEA on the television, and RTE do a phenomenal job.

SPEAKER_00 40:29

I think Stephen probably the best game of the weekend was not on the television, and that was meade than West Mead because people think the Leicester Championship is off, forget about it.

SPEAKER_02 40:38

Well, and that's it, and but but the the quandary for RTE is but they can't show everything. Yeah, that's exactly not everybody's interested in GEA.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Some people want to watch, you know, fest with Frank.

SPEAKER_02 40:52

Yeah, exactly. But but there's just and and this goes all the way to in political terms and everything.

SPEAKER_00 40:57

Stephen in many times have I seen that, you know, there's uh Ireland are playing that on First City or something that's been cancelled, and and people will go mad because they like having their first city, but yet it's cancelled for a match or it's cancelled for the Eurovision or something like that. So speaking of the Mara, seeing that you are involved in Paris sports and obviously like your your your soccer and other other sports, like what else would you would you rugby league now? I know you're involved in union. What do you think of rugby league?

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Is it his I'd be honest, I'm one of those people who who would who would watch anything and get in engrossed in it. Like rugby league. I like my mum actually as well. Yeah, I got into my mom's house and my mum loves the rugby, and you know, when it goes onto a paywall like Premier Sports, whatever, she she misses out and things, but she'll get her fixed by watching rugby league. And I frequently go into the house and she's sitting watching a rugby league game, uh, and I'll sit and watch it with her, and it's phenomenal.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Oh, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 41:48

Because when again, when the product is good, when you know you're looking and you're seeing look at just sport at that level, sport at paralympic level, sport at rugby league level when it's on the television, you know, the mask level when it's on the television, the Irish, like most people can't ever get to that level, and that's actually what intrigues us. You know, the reason why we go to concerts is because most people can't sing the way these people sing, or most people don't have the charisma, or they you know, they never dance. Most people can't dance like that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:18

99%, 99.9% of the population, I would believe, like, couldn't even stand the intensity of being in the dressing room before a GA championship match, Stephen, or before, you know, just that raw intensity, you know, we've all been there, and 99.9% of the population would probably go outside the door and get thick, to be honest, which is just in the narrow circumstrator. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

The intensity at the start, but you know the cruelty in sport, and and and and and and it's phenomenal as a viewer, but it's hard when you're there. You see, when a team loses and you're knocking the change in room door to say, like, stop crying, come out and do the media.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

You know, like I hate doing that. I hate doing that. And that's hard, you know, that's hard.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

And then you've got somebody from the tournament saying, you know, your players need to be out there in five minutes, and you're like, that's when you have to say to them, it hold on a second, there's a human person in there now is upset, and we get them together and we bring them out and and you stand with them.

SPEAKER_00 43:17

You know, it's a part I hate Stephen. It's like when you're doing an interview. Now, I had a great time, great photograph of myself and Frank under the Cusick stand, hugging after Longford won the Larry Mark, but then there's times when I've you know had to text you because I don't want to talk to you, or just give you a hug after a game and say, you know, you're okay. I remember um Longford were beaten in an end star under 21 final in 2013. We'd beaten Dublin in the first round, and Eugene McCormick, the Longford manager, because Longford came so close to winning that first title, and he got you know, he started getting a bit emotional. And I got emotional win him. And I think it was probably one of the best interviews I've ever done because the two of us had emotion, and I I knew it was because I promised I had that's what you have. to do and I I I notice with a lot of media now is they lack that empathy. I know that I wouldn't want that. And I wouldn't want another person. I would say to a person afterwards, hey okay to do the interview, I'm sorry, I'll have a bit of a chat beforehand. But a lot of them want that big story, they want to have the the kick in there, the final dig or something like I can't do that.

SPEAKER_02 44:20

I think you've hit the nail on the head again, Denise and I think that's exactly what the view so there was a couple of high profile flashpoints in rugby a few years ago where in in in in English rugby where the the players weren't doing well, Eddie Jones was under pressure. And some of the postmath interviews became big debates then and and the person in question the journalist in question came out and said well look I'm a journalist that's my job to do that. But actually what the journalists missed and I I completely agree with that. I and when I was working in and I'd come down and I'd help uh you know Dave O'Shea Khan who used to do the the the the media management with the Irish team I'd come down and help out and he'd give you know he'd give us you know bring this person there bring that person there. I think the thing that the Irish journalists always realized is first and foremost you're standing in front of a person who's devastated here. So they'd always ask and Claire McNamara is really good at this she'll she'll ask questions that are probing but they're not attacking. Yes and that nobody sitting at home really wants to see Owen Farrell attacked when he is literally still standing on the pitch probably being a human being yeah he's a human being and at the end of the day and we've got to remember this it's just sport.

SPEAKER_00 45:30

Yeah it's just sport you always say that Frank always says that Frank Frank has had a tough time in his life and he will always say that about about sport you know that there is worse things and I was disappointed the other bit day about something and then I looked at a memorial card that I got recently and of a young lad and their family and I said do you know what that family went through something. You know I can forget about things but that you do realize certain things in life do bring you back down to work don't they?

SPEAKER_01 45:58

You know yeah I don't know Stevens I was I was there like I I've been following the Mayo the Mayo football journey you know and look at some of the lads involved and you know what I learned when I hear people about the team and all but winners and losers always personally I remember I think it was maybe 2013 all Ireland and we were in Co Park and Mayo were beaten. I remember Keith Higgins is a really good friend of mine. I remember looking out just as a final I was sitting beside his mother and I remember looking out and Keith was on his knees, you know and there were seven eighty thousand people in the stadium there was probably two quarters of a million people watching it live on television. But for that 20 or 30 seconds he, you know it was personal it was really people saying you know for him it was he was there and all this man wanted to go out and do was give him a hope in mind.

SPEAKER_02 46:43

And that is the emotional sport that we love isn't it it it it it really is and I think within that actually is and we've got to be very careful because within that and I think that pressure and that 20 or 30 seconds and that person is on the pitch and it'll always be the same because there's always that you know when you're striving for something there's a loss if you don't get it. There's always win or losing yeah but I do think that actually it's getting harder and I think yes what what it is really and I think even some of you know some of the some of the way some of the sponsors present the sport I think leans into it as well. It's almost like you know this is tribal or you know this is the toughest and all that. There's really no need for that because actually the underlying message of that is is is is almost saying that it's bigger than it actually is. At the end of the day it's it's a group of uh men or women face another group of men or women trying to just you know achieve something that gives the people in the stands a lift you know that's really yeah we we touched on language day you know one of my book bears is you know uh triaparites a penalty is a tragedy in the game of football the tragedy is three people being killed on a road in a crash at four o'clock in the morning that's a tragedy tri a parrot is a penalty it's disappointing sport it's not a tragedy you know sport means what create memories that's exactly it yeah I mean because there's a loss there for sure like you know I uh you know are God I'm of that age now where my uh I don't have any kids myself but my friends' kids are saying my god is this what it was like during World Cup 90 and and they do that that it's and as they say it's the hope that kills you you know so I understand the loss that can be associated with not getting to a particular but actually when you bring it down yeah you can't have people attacking players online for losing a for losing a football match now I'm not a big fan of Ernest Lost but his children now are getting abused on Twitter and social media and we're thinking oh my god like it's a game of football at the end of the day or it's sport at the end of the day we probably we could probably talk about social media for three hours Stephen and poor poor Frank poor Frank has to go off but you know what Stephen we could talk because I never realised now when I've known Stephen the last number of years obviously through bocce but I never realised I'm gonna say this now Stephen what an interesting person you are thank you so much I think that that is a compliment compliment but I just say it out there Stephen I never really got a born fake yeah she couldn't really say that though at the end of it could be easy enough I never knew he was a United fan.

SPEAKER_00 49:16

I never because we just talked botch and that and we never really kind of had whereas now I've seen this my gosh this is see McNamara you know we'd have a bit of crack with Frank on a night out. Now I don't drink but we'd have a we would have a bit of crack with yay.

SPEAKER_02 49:28

You're not yeah yeah but but look that that's what it's about and sorry and I'm not sure if you're if you're wrapping up but just I want to make sure I get this in before we do wrap up. Denise I just want to say for you and and and and the listeners probably mightn't even realize this because I know you're you're not one to big yourself up but you're involved in so many things and you volunteer and and that culture of volunteerism in Ireland is hugely important. And actually it can come with a lot of grief for volunteers at times but but it's people like you Denise that we need more of and thank you so much for all of the time all of the work that happens in in Botcha and and will continue to happen Botcia is because of people like yourself.

SPEAKER_00 50:07

Oh thank you so so much.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

But definitely we have to catch up again with all this we're gonna have to just call this this episode the Stephen McNamara Love In you know Yeah yeah give me a couple more years everything in sport is timed you know it you you're yeah but you know you're up you're down um and uh even if even if we're down at some stage and you want me to do uh a a piece on the podcast I'd be like music Stephen sport is that mad that I'm actually supporting Westmead now like that was unheard of that was unheard of here Denise Tots and prayers though I'd never turn to the dark side and support Rangers are united but well it's more you know you're playing Rangers but I'd never kind of go that far you know but yeah look at because Frank is Frank is Frank's a busy man.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

You know we're we're not as busy as Frank though Steven so Frank has to scurry off so I try to be an absolute an absolute pleasure thank you so much for your time really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

Yeah thank you so much you take care of yourself thank you by the way