Kicking the Door Down with Clare Nash: Retrofitting Architecture: Sustainability, Women in Architecture & Building the Future

Kicking the Door Down: How Retrofit Architecture Can Transform Our Spaces

In this insightful episode of Kicking the Door Down, host Debbie is joined by Clare Nash, an architect specializing in retrofit architecture. Together, they explore the importance of retrofitting in the architectural landscape, particularly in the UK, and discuss the unique challenges and opportunities it presents. If you’re curious about how retrofitting can not only preserve but enhance existing structures, this post is for you.

### What is Retrofit Architecture?
Retrofitting refers to the process of modifying existing buildings to improve energy efficiency, safety, or aesthetics without tearing them down. As Clare explains, the UK is at a critical juncture where retrofitting is not just beneficial but necessary due to the increasing demand for sustainable living solutions. This approach not only extends the life of buildings but also aligns with environmental goals by reducing waste and promoting sustainability.

### The Journey into Architecture
Clare’s journey into architecture began with a unique blend of art and mathematics, encouraged by a teacher who recognized her talents. Growing up in a farming environment, she gained hands-on experience in construction, which demystified building sites for her. Clare initially ventured into interior architecture, realizing its potential but also the limitations placed on the profession, particularly in the UK. This realization led her to pursue a more comprehensive architectural education, ultimately culminating in her specialization.

### The Need for Change in Architectural Education
One of the most significant insights from Clare’s experience is the disparity between architectural education and real-world practice. In the UK, the path to becoming an architect can take up to seven years, with many students feeling unprepared for the practical challenges they face in the industry. Clare argues that while design skills are essential, understanding the practical aspects of construction is equally crucial. This gap in education can lead to frustrations among new architects who find themselves ill-equipped to handle the realities of their jobs.

### Addressing Gender Disparities in Architecture
A vital aspect of the discussion revolves around gender disparities in the architecture field. Clare highlights how women often face additional challenges in their careers, especially when balancing family life and demanding work schedules. The industry can be unforgiving, with long hours and high-pressure environments contributing to a significant drop-off of women after they enter the workforce. Clare advocates for a more inclusive and supportive workplace culture that recognizes the contributions of all architects, regardless of gender.

### The Impact of Mental Health on the Architectural Profession
Additionally, Clare sheds light on the mental health challenges prevalent in architecture. The pressure to perform and the blame culture often found in traditional practices can lead to burnout and stress. By fostering an environment of collaboration and understanding, Clare’s practice seeks to combat these issues. She emphasizes the importance of normalizing mistakes and creating a supportive culture where architects can thrive without the fear of blame.

### Conclusion
Through her passion for retrofit architecture and dedication to creating a positive work environment, Clare Nash is reshaping the architectural landscape. Her insights serve as a reminder of the importance of sustainability, inclusivity, and mental well-being in the profession. For those interested in learning more about the transformative power of retrofitting and the future of architecture, Claire’s work offers valuable lessons and inspiration.

Want to delve deeper? Watch the full conversation with Clare Nash on Kicking the Door Down, and explore how we can all contribute to a more sustainable future through architecture.

https://clarenasharchitecture.co.uk/

https://www.linkedin.com/in/clarenasharchitect/

Kicking The Door Down

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Hi and welcome to Kicking the Door Down. And today on Kicking the Door Down, I am joined by Claire Nash from Claire Nash Architecture. Hi Claire, how are you doing? Great, thanks. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's absolutely my pleasure. I appreciate you coming on the show. I've been really looking forward to speaking to you today, especially after our initial conversation that seemed like ages ago this has been this has been definitely on my radar for a bit because architecture is so special. And yours is really special because you also specialise in retrofit architecture as well. Um tell me about how you got into this.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

So I um was quite good at art at school and maths, and um I had a teacher who was an architect and then became an art teacher. So he kind of suggested this might be a good idea. Uh plus I had a farmer's uh a farmer as a dad, uh, and lots of bodging going on around the farm. Like you have to be a builder as well as a farmer. Yeah. Um, and then he had gone away and studied to become a charter surveyor, went into estate agency, hated being in an office, went back to farming, but then he used that knowledge to convert barns later. So I grew up on building sites. I'd do pointing in my um some holidays and help him do, you know, on the concrete mixer and that kind of thing. Um so I I yeah, so I guess I was never intimidated by building sites, which is helpful. Um, but even so, I I thought seven years was way too long. I didn't think I was particularly academic. Um so I started um as suggested by because I went to art college, they suggested I do interior architecture, which I thought, okay, that's three years, I can manage that. And if I want to carry on, there are other options. I absolutely loved it. Just if it's something that just clicked with me, and uh, I just took off. I seem to find it easier than other people. Um yeah, and um so that yeah, anyway, but then I got a job and realised there was a ceiling for interior architects. People kind of thought it was fluffy cushions and stuff when it isn't. Um if you work on the continent as I did, I worked in Germany for a couple of years in Liechtenstein later, that uh in an actual interior architecture practice, they're the same all over Scandinavia, lots of places on the continent. I think it's only Britain that doesn't get what it is, and it's refurb.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

And it's interesting, isn't it, that we don't, because we were talking about that, how um in Europe I'm familiar with the term, but when I've spoken about it here in the UK or I've heard it when I've been doing retrofit for the industrial uh gas detection and stuff like that, it's not called that. It's really interesting, and I I don't actually know why, because it makes sense to call it that.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Yeah, I don't get it either. Um, but you know, in the end I decided, okay, I'm back here, so I might as well kind of barrel to convention and uh to yeah, and I was I was talking to you beforehand about once I was working in a bar uh while I was at uni and somebody said, Oh, it's just cushions and curtains, and they're very sort of they just kind of discounted me at that point, and I've I was like, oh, there's so much more to me than cushions and curtains. I was really fed up with that flip, flippant statement. And I realised there was a pay ceiling as well, partly because we don't get it here. Um yeah, I partly for other reasons, probably. So I was like, okay, I'm but I was working at a good architect, so I was really enjoying the experience I was getting. I didn't want to stop it um because I was getting out on site all the time. They were letting me run things, it was brilliant. Uh so I said, Can I do part-time study as well as working? And they said yes, which really surprised me because actually they're it's really blooming hard to get part-time work in architecture. Uh, but yeah, and then I did that. So I didn't lose out on my experience, but I gained all the extra qualifications and useful bits. Um, and that moniker, you know, that nobody can take away from me unless I do something illegal.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Uh, which is really helpful, uh especially as a woman, because people uh there's this instant respect you get from that label, which is very helpful.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah, definitely. And and going back to the work on the retrofit, um, because it's it is really important here in the UK to have that work done. And I know from an industrial point of view, there's more and more retrofits that are happening where we have to go back for new safety regimes, new remits, but also if we're not building as much, we do have to work on those retrofits. And and I guess that covers also residential areas as well. So you're you're in need, you're very much in demand with those skills. So it is strange that the UK hasn't picked up on that.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah. I think uh in general, architects like to think they can do everything, which which you can, but they don't like that there's these other subsectors of it because it kind of takes away from the the point of the seven years, which is under contention anyway. I personally think it's far too long on the continent. It isn't as long. It's not like architecture's rubbish in Germany or Austria or wherever, at all. It's um and the student debt issue is just horrendous at the moment. So something is changing and will change.

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Um seven years is a long time, isn't it? It is, and especially on top of the three, so ten years in total, uh, without all the other stuff you would have done around the side of that, which there's going to be a lot of it. I thought, isn't that the same amount of time that somebody trains to be a vet or something like that? So it's very yeah. Yeah, so is is seven years is a long time. So you're you're saying that's possibly longer than Europe?

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yes, it is, yeah. In Europe it's five or four, depending where you go. I think the argument is that dealing with buildings, you you are also dealing with public safety. There's huge risks, uh, which is absolutely true. But if the continent can do it in less time, then and there's also a mismatch between what you're taught at university, which is often very, very heavily design pushed, which has benefits because British architects are sought out the world over because of those design skills. But on the other hand, when you start work, most of those are a bit irrelevant and you don't actually know how to design a building that can afford to be built, uh, that someone actually can build. Uh, you know, all these really boring but very practical things, um, that I I feel like there's not enough of that as a contrast.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

No, and I've got a bit of a thought process that's come here, and you can tell me I'll um tell me if I'm wrong or an idiot or something, but I I was talking to somebody recently about careers, um, and they'd gone through their education, um, you know, gone through their education, finished their exams, then it takes a while to actually get a job or set up what they're gonna do. Um, but then, you know, their equivalent male counterpart, if you like, that did exactly the same. If if she then had a baby, she would have to have that time off and then go back. But the male counterpart by that time had carried on in their career, but then when she came back, it's almost like she comes back behind the times. Yeah. A little bit. So imagining that on top of 10 years education and then getting to work, it's like it's a lot, it's a it's a lot to put down to then have to pick back up again. So yeah, I wonder if there's a discrepancy of me male females in the industry for that reason as well.

SPEAKER_01 8:08

I'm not sure. I um there's a huge drop off. Uh I think it's it's actually biased towards women in um now in for the degree stage, and then it drops off quite considerably. Once people have had a year out in practice, they're like, oh, okay. Like I always think women particularly are thinking further ahead. If they do want a family, they can see that the long hours culture isn't compatible with that. Um, and and it's very high responsibility, lots of pressure on you as an individual. Uh when I've worked in practices, it tends to be quite blamey. Um, you're at fault rather than let's work together and sort this out because of the fear basically of being sued. Because we have this part of money behind us, which is our insurance, which everybody, the whole industry knows is there. And subcontractors will play dirty and push you and so that they can claim. Um, you learn all about this before you even start, so you sort of wonder why bother.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I'm very familiar with those type of contracts, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah, yeah. Um, and then you have clients on top as well, you know, and they are understandably upset when costs go up and want someone to blame and or things that are totally out of our control because we're the ones at the end with the pot of money, even if it isn't our fault, it's still our fault. So there's all this stuff, uh, which is very off-putting. And you wonder why why you'd bother. And I think a lot of women quite sensibly think, do you know what? There are easier ways to make money, and I could actually work part-time doing X, Y, Z instead. Um, whereas men are naturally more competitive, don't mind that so much. Uh, I'm not saying this is all men at all, because I know plenty who don't fit that mold at all uh and find it just as upsetting as I do, you know, that kind of atmosphere. But um yeah, and that's definitely something that doesn't happen in my own practice. Like we all make mistakes, and I've normalized that by talking about my own, and uh so that everybody else feels that they can talk about theirs, and then we work on it together, because that's how I think it should be. We're not competing with each other, we're working as a team to get stuff done, and that's how I like to work on site as well. It's not like oh, who did what? You know, everybody will make a mistake at some point, we just need to get through it.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

I agree, and that's how you're pushing to change the way an industry behaves, and and you know, and if we all sat back and just went, oh, that's just the industry we're in, which I've heard a million times about various different things, then that nothing will change. But actually, one brick at a time, you're making those changes, and that's exactly it. And I I wonder if it's because some of the research I've read suggests that, and it's a generalization will suggest that um, you know, males might be less risk adverse um and and go for things, which could lean into what you're saying there about women thinking more ahead. And again, it's a generalization, but there's enough data to suggest that that could be one of the reasons for it, and that's that's just that that's okay. We're different, we are different people, but actually by you saying how you manage your consultant your your practice, and then it's it's a very different uh way of thinking. I love the idea of removing the blind culture as well, of removing that.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Yeah, yeah. Uh well, I I just hated it. I've you already if you make a mistake, you feel already dreadful. You don't need someone else to lay a whole load of other stuff on top. Um, that's always what I've thought about it. And no intelligent person is going to make a mistake on purpose, but all humans do, it's just how we we are. Um yeah, so I that irritated me. So I thought I'd change it. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

And why not? That should be your mission statement. That irritated me, so I changed it. That's why that's why we should run the world, I think.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, it's also where my practice, uh everybody works remotely and flexibly, and we meet up once a week in real life, and the real life part is important. Um, but when I I started this well before COVID, um, and people like, what how can you trust your staff to work without you breathing down their necks? I was like, well, A, that's horrible. And B, why would you employ people you don't trust? Um, and um, but also there's this thing, you have to always be on and ready for the next big idea and collaboration and stuff, and it just comes from that big male ego, you know, the starchitect. You have to wait for my amazing idea. And if it appears at 3 a.m. while I'm in the bath, well, so what? You have to crack on with it. I've heard real life stories of this, by the way, I haven't made that. The starchitect. That is it's just oh, it's so insane. Uh yeah. Whereas the rest of us, mere mortals, just you know, get on with it. And if we have an idea at 3 a.m. in the bath, we write it down and then tell people about it in normal hours.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Yeah, what what where is this? I mean, this, and you're so true. That's so true. I have I the same, even from a sales point of view, or engineer. And I remember the old way being on the road as well, the old way of um ego was how many miles you'd done in a week. Almost like that proved your worth. Um, what it did was burnt rubber, basically. It wasn't actually doing anything, but you know, yeah, like that that and the feeling of always being on for me is just going to create a burnout mentality. It's horrible.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

It is really horrible, yeah. Um, and I I think the mental health situation has really helped change things at university because now because that long alcohol culture came from university, pulling all nighters is very normal.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Really? Yeah. I didn't know I didn't appreciate that. Oh, I'd hear that.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Um, and um uh yes, uh which it you know is something I tried once and it didn't work for me at all. My brain just switches off, so I didn't do it again. But yeah, that's where it comes from. Um, and of course they can't promote that because it creates a really awful cycle. I remember there was one student I was teaching because I used to teach regularly at Oxford Brooks, and they were really good actually for saying go home, have a social life, all that stuff. Uh but even so people got themselves into negative cycles of ending up with more and more nighttime working, which meant they were sleeping during the day, which meant they were missing out on their peer groups and socialising, they were making problems bigger than they were because at night time you always do that. Um it was a horrible, horrible cycle.

SPEAKER_00 14:46

Um really sad, isn't it? Especially for somebody going through education. Yeah. Um, you know, no matter the age, if you're going through something new, you're learning something new, um, and going into a new world, and you think, is that what it's going to be like all the time?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. So I I do think that's really helped the industry because uh, you know, to put it bluntly, you just aren't allowed to do that anymore. It's illegal, isn't it? To well, I don't know if it's as strong as that, but it it's almost illegal to cause mental health problems. It's a it's a serious thing. So they can't be seen to promote things that that contribute to that.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

No, no, absolutely. Working hours, pressure, um, the way we well, it's brand values, corporate values, all that sort of stuff pulled into one, isn't it? And yeah, that's that's horrible. And I guess really when I look at your website, which I would really recommend anybody looks at because this is different for an architectural website, it feels welcoming and nice and light and friendly. Um whilst very serious, it feels welcoming. Um, but I love the section that says why we do it, because that is that sums it up. Love we love architecture, but we also strongly believe that um designing homes with the environment in mind does not mean sacrificing beauty. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. That's what it says on the top. I love that. It's it's nice. Yeah, that's definitely us. Yeah. And what what a great thing to do for people as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, yeah, it it gives us a lot of joy. Uh, and uh, and still absolutely amazed when stuff looks like my drawings. I arrive on site and it's like, oh, yeah, I don't know why I'm surprised, especially this many years in, but it surprises me every time. Does it ever get emotional, Claire? Yeah, yeah, it's um I I don't know. I I mean, I'm one of those people who tends to move on quite quickly, so I have to try really hard to really appreciate what I've already done. Uh so yeah, and that takes a bit of doing. I want your job.

SPEAKER_00 16:57

I want your job. This sounds I I think this is like such an amazing area to be in, an amazing space. And I think, you know, when I was going through school, I did art. I'd have loved to have thought about architecture. There was not there was nothing at my school, it was a case of um, oh yeah, you can do art, so you what you do art, be an art teacher, or go and learn child studies, because clearly I was going to have kids, which I never did, so I disappointed someone. But what why are we not? I want more of this in schools, it's brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Yeah, I I do think it's generally better now. I I don't my son's eight, so he hasn't quite got there yet, so I I can't vouch for it actually being better. But I I was very lucky. I had some, I had a a wonderful math teacher and a wonderful art teacher who just saw something and and encouraged me. And then when I went to uni and did interior architecture, I had an amazing course director who was passionate about sustainable architecture, and he just fed me books because I loved it too. Um see part of it's luck and part of it's just taking people up on what they they'll give you.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah. And also your background of of growing up in that farming world and helping your dad doing the pointing as you were saying and stuff, that that takes away some of the mystery when you've done the foundational stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

Yeah, yeah, and also I wasn't afraid of working with men because of my dad, essentially. My dad's quite a feminist, uh, although he probably wouldn't describe himself like that, but he had a very strong mum and sister. Um they you know, they were quite involved on the farm. It it wasn't um like he never thought women weren't strong, kind of thing. Like he never said to me, You can't lift that, for example.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah. Um Is he a role model? It sounds like he was a bit of a role model to you.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Yeah, yeah. I mean his brain is very much like mine. We're both very entrepreneurial.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

So I learned that from him, definitely. But also just having a go at stuff and not worrying too much about what happens afterwards. I've definitely got that from him. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I love that. That's brilliant. He's got he's got a lot of credit then in you.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

From you.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, he was yeah, he was he was good.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

And I wonder with your entrepreneurial spirit then, that's what set you up with the actual business with Clay Nash Architecture up, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Yeah, well, I was pushed really into that. Uh, because um I got the opportunity to do some research abroad. Um, I really wanted to do it, um, and it meant six months abroad. And um, at the time it was the credit crunch, uh, which we'd survived uh in the architecture practice I was working for, um, because we didn't do much housing. Uh, and then Cameron cut all funding, all public funding, and our major projects were all public, like prisons, schools, universities, healthcare. I remember that. So that just, you know, stopped. Uh, and they made three rounds of duncies, which was horrible to witness. Um, and then they said if we don't want to make a fourth round, if somebody wants to disappear for six months, um, that'd be great. Uh, and I thought, here's my opportunity. And I hadn't yet got a mortgage or anything particularly tying me down. So it I felt like it was now or never. So I went to uh all around South America, Papua New Guinea, um China, looking at um all different types of dwellings, so like cave dwellings in China, mining relocation housing in Papua New Guinea, earth dwellings in um South America, to see how we could take elements of that and put it into modern sustainable housing. And um I wrote in the end I wrote a book about it, but that came later. But of course, I came back six months later, things weren't any better, and I was easy to lose them because um my jobs have been given to other people. But it was the nicest possible redundancy. They're really good to me and helped me get um job interviews and stuff like that. Um and uh yeah, at both job interviews I went to, they went for the other person. I was in the final two, and they went for the other one. I was like, oh, something telling me something here. Uh so I freelanced for a bit. I didn't like um not being in charge of what came in and when. Um, because you're like you're either really busy or you weren't, and I never knew which one it was going to be. Uh so I started putting postercards in local shops. I worked as a dinner lady to make ends meet. Um yeah, built it up from there, basically. Um I started getting good at telling people I was an architect, which I hated doing because it felt like I was boasting. Um, but of course you get jobs then if you tell people. Yeah. Uh yeah, and I built and and then a few about two, three years later, I was like, okay, I've done lots of extensions now. Which by the way, I had to learn how to do those. People assume all architects know how to do them, but I'd only done really big stuff before. So an extension was quite a challenge. And so I what I did was I read Home Building Renovating magazine and learned out how to do it from that.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

You're definitely a natural at this, by the way. I'm not sure everybody could just pick up a magazine and go, Oh yeah, go on, I'll I'll I'll have a go. I did have my training and many years experience behind me. It wasn't just You're so humble, Claire. It's so fun. I just had a go. You didn't just have a go. You knew what you were doing.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Yeah, it did kind of feel like I was blagging my way through a bit, but yeah, I delivered in the end. But yeah, I thought, okay, I started reading about marketing. I think, okay, this is a thing. But I worked out if you niche, then you can mark yourself out as the expert, you can charge more money. It also attracts people to you more easily because people don't get confused. So I thought, okay, what should I niche in? And then I came up with barn conversions because of my experience, but also because I like being in a field.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

And um, yeah, those were the two main drivers. And I got a barn conversion project, uh, and I got planning permission in a quite an unusual way. So I wrote about that, and then three months later, Google caught up and said, and somebody rang up and said, Oh, you're the expert on barns. I need you to do mine. I was like, Oh, I've literally done one and it's worked.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Fantastic! Yeah, the power of the internet.

SPEAKER_01 23:25

Yeah, so that that was it. Then I was off. I'd and now I've done many, many, many barns. Yeah. But it really does help specializing in something because people still ask you to do other things, but you it gives you that confidence and and you know what you're saying. And um, when people come onto your website, they're like, Okay, I'm in the right place, they don't disappear. Um so I found it to be really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

But even then with your website, because people, the architecture using the same word of a website, and you mentioned you'd built to yourself before, and now your new one you'd use somebody external to create that. But the architecture of a website has to say what you do as well. I always believe it's the win it's your shop window, isn't it? To you, and yours does do that, and it does make you feel that you've landed in the right place. So whoever you're communicating that with gets that space as well. But you would also have had to, for your first two, go away and learn about that. Yeah. And it it's it's a yeah, it is about putting stuff together.

SPEAKER_01 24:31

Yeah, oh, definitely. I read tons of marketing books and spoke to lots of people about marketing. Anything free I could grab my hands on, I did it. Or, you know, cheap. Yeah. Because I was bootstrapping at that point. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Um and why not? Because now, you know, you've got a business, you've got people that work for you, you're an employer um rather than an employee. Um, so what you're doing is providing income as well for other people. You know, so it you've got your own community around you now. Yeah. So yeah, it is important to do the bootstrapping first. Because what you're creating is fantastic, and it's not, you know, it's not just you anymore, you've got a team around you. I can see them all on the uh our team page. Yeah. I al I always love seeing, I've got the website up for everybody listening, and I always love seeing these pictures because what's really nice about these, if everyone looks at them, is they're not the normal corporate um sour face, uh, just a white wall sort of face. It's nice, they're in a field, which is what you said, or it looks like you're in a field. Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I always say that whenever we get photographs done, we have to be outside. Trees, very helpful, definitely field vibes, yeah, that kind of thing, because we're not just about the built aspect, we're also about the outside. Um, yeah. And and it gives that rural feeling because we I mean we do do um eco-retrofits in Oxford, but that's our only urban thing. Everything else is all in the middle of nowhere or villages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Brilliant. And do you find do you find it's mainly uh residential or business that come to you or a mix?

SPEAKER_01 26:21

Yeah, it it's mainly residential, uh, with some commercial developers. So we'll do multiple houses or barn conversions in one site, uh, which I do like because you get repeat work then, um, and which is more secure. So that is something I've diverted into over the years because the trouble with individuals, much as we love it, is they don't tend to need another one for another 20 years plus, if at if at all. Um it means we keep having to find new people, whereas developers obviously repeat, do things landowners also because they own multiple barns or space that needs things doing. Um so I've been targeting them for a while on purpose. Um, and then I diversified into garden design. Um, I've been doing it unofficially, just as an add-on to existing clients without publishing it um for years, and then in COVID, we'd just lost half our workload overnight, and I was like, oh um, and um what to do about that. And the flexiferdo hadn't quite appeared, it was just the really strict one where either everybody was flat out and stressed or twiddling their thumbs, and um oh, it's horrible. Yeah, it's a horrible time.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

I was flat out stressed, I was one of them once.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Me too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, and um anyway, uh then um what was I gonna say? Uh yeah. Yeah, I realised everybody was looking at their gardens with extra time, not knowing what to do with them. The garden centres were open, so I was like, okay, sod it, I'm gonna put this out as an offer. Um, a kind of DIY thing, because you couldn't at that point get in landscapers and do big stuff. Um yeah, it was really popular. I got great feedback and I thought, okay, this is a thing. So then I put a proper page on the website. Um yeah, and it's just grown from there, really. Um, and I'm not officially qualified as a garden designer. I don't want any more qualifications, so I feel like architecture, that was enough for me. Um, but I've got a long history of my own planting knowledge. I'm a bit of a geek on plants, uh, and interest in wildlife ecology and all that stuff, plus a big designer background. So I put those two together and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

That's fantastic. And and again, that is a natural skill set that you're not you're you're so humble about because if I touch anything, it dies. So it's and it's I would I would love that skill set, and you're right, I even I did it. We sat down in COVID and went, well, we better sort the garden out then. So we were one of those. Um and it's it's yeah, that's true. And you turned your hand to it because being able to pivot in that situation is as you say, is very entrepreneurial.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah. And also necessary. Yeah, it was. Because you've got to pay the bills, yeah, and the people.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

It's definitely sink or swim for a lot of people at that time. Yes. Which which what what it was. And and and when I look at your because on your side, you've got your services guaranteed, which I would I would also link these two core values. Would that be fair?

unknown 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I think so. And what I love about it is one of them is warm.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, we're not we're not cold and hard like some I think some practices come across quite corporate and very kind of snobby, like it's my design way or the highway kind of thing. Uh whereas we like to come from what people want first and we'll absolutely guide and make sure it's functional, of course, and facilitate, but we're not gonna say, ugh, you can't do that kind of thing, because that's just snobbery. And uh, if you've done anything in art, you know that it's subjective anyway.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:14

So yeah, that uh but of course people are attracted to what we've done before because we present stuff that we want more of, so you do kind of filter it that way anyway. Um but yeah, I've always thought it architecture can be so snobby as an industry, and I don't like it.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

No, you're right. Well, if you if you um you know, from my point of view, if you look at other, you know, websites, it or or i in in my history when I've come across this sort of stuff with working with maybe external designers and stuff, you normally see a picture of Canary Wharf or something like that. It's almost, you know, it's the it's the photo stock images you can get from the internet, yeah, as a as opposed to a real life scenario. And I know if I was looking, especially for my home, that's that set of values there makes me feel secure, um valued. It's definitely put in, it's definitely customer-centric as opposed to you know just shoving what you do down someone else. You know, it's this is about the person and would make you it builds trust, doesn't it? Yeah, it builds trust. It does. Yeah, that's the plan. Oh, I love it. No, I did it's so it's so different, it's so different. So what what if somebody was coming into your industry, how would you what would what would you say to them would be the steps to go and find out what to do if you know going for if they were studying, for example.

SPEAKER_01 31:43

I think in the in the first instance, try a lot of things. Uh I was very lucky um one of the practices I worked for gave me a really wide range of experience. So I got to try all stages, all bits. Um, and only by doing that do you think, oh actually, I'm not very good at that bit, or that bit drains me, and this bit really lights me up. Um yeah. Uh if you don't try it, I don't I don't know how you'd know. Um so go for a good all-rounder, I think, rather than chasing the glossy Starchitect things, um, which yeah, um I think you're paying for a name rather than experience quite often, because you know, some of the stuff that you actually end up doing is like designing the loos. Whereas the the smaller practices that do the do, you know, like everything gets built, which is really something. I mean I mean the first practice I worked at, only 50% got built, which is depressing, to be honest. Um yeah, uh yeah, and then you really learn your craft then because you get a lot of opportunities to do different things. Um yeah, so I'd I'd definitely suggest that. Um and when you're at university, assuming you go, um, because to be honest, if I was starting again, I'd probably do an apprenticeship route now to avoid student debt. Um, but if you get the opportunity, then try, make the most of all the free stuff. Like I did sustainable workshops where you get to build cob walls and green roofs and learn how to thatch. That's really helpful because then when you're drawing stuff and you're on site and talking to people, you've actually literally done it with your hands. You're not starting from nothing. Um, and it it's very intimidating going on site for the first time because you feel like you do know nothing. Even me with my background, I did feel like that. Um but you the more you go, the easier it gets. Um, so you just gotta stick yourself in there at the deep end and clo crawl out.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

We all yeah, and we'll we'll we all have to start from somewhere, and I think you you're right. I know from my point of view as well, if and any engineer I've spoken, it's the same. You've got you've got to try it yourself, it's gotta be in your head. Otherwise, how do you know? And how do you how do you know how to do it? Design it afterwards, but like you say, how do you know what you like and don't like? That's really important. Yeah, that's that the yeah, that and you're right about the apprenticeships as well, because we briefly touched on that. Because if somebody's studying for 10 years, that's one hell of a student debt that they would have accrued. Yeah, it's about 80 grand now or something ridiculous. Oh my god. Yeah, I know, and they've changed, haven't they changed the is it the bracket of what or the salary that or the point at which the students uh you know, once they've left, they start paying it back as well, I think.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

Yeah, they have. And the um like when I took out student loan, it was always gonna be at inflation, and now it's more than that, it's interest and inflation. That makes it such a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um I mean you they're already in debt by the time they've left. It's just yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it yeah, it's not not nice.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Um, no.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

And I think every every industry needs more apprenticeships now. Um I know when I've been talking to um some of some of the um some of the governor, some of the bodies that I work with, um, like building people, ingenuity, etc., they're all trying to push employers for more apprenticeships and they're trying to do their thing, but until until until it's more readily available, I think, for employers, it's going to be difficult. So you definitely need more apprenticeships.

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Yeah. There's always been a really good route which I used to examine on at Oxford Brooks. It's called uh Reba Studio, which isn't an apprenticeship, it's it's different. Um, but it does it means you can work full-time. So uh and then you come to present your work every so often. It's it's a slower route to get there, but it makes it possible for people who've got families and a job already and a mortgage to pay, all that stuff. That it means they don't have to miss out if they want to get there.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Yeah, I was just about to ask that actually, because it's not always just about students coming out of education, is it? This is adults that can switch career if they have that opportunity as well. So that's available too.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yes, it is. Uh as far as I know, it's only at Oxford Brooks. Um it's a special programme. Uh, and there's lots of international people do it as well because of the prestige of having a British qualification. Um, but but even pe lots of people from all over the UK do it. Um it was great. I thought it was a really, really good, well, it still is, uh, a great route to get in. Um yeah, uh, because you know, even things like um one of my friends uh was a carpenter for many years and realized his back had a limited time. And um so retrained as an architect, he's extremely talented.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Yeah, he's really good at it. Um and when I was in Austria, uh for a long time the the university fees over there were prohibitive for the majority of people. Um so very clever people went into the trades, which is why partly why you get such amazing buildings then, because they knew how to do passive house before architects had even heard of it. It was just they just get it. Um really clever trades. Yeah, yeah. Um uh yeah, so I met quite a few people who later transitioned into architecture because be you know, the the fees changed at some point, or they made their money first and then they went back to uni and did that. Uh so there are multiple carpenter slash architect combos over there, which is why it's so blimmin lovely.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. I was just thinking it must be really interesting because then by but by encouraging people from different um demographics and different ages, you've got a whole different diverse, like a tapestry of people, then haven't you, with different experiences that are bringing it to architecture.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Makes it really interesting and really, you know, um um accessible for normal people rather than it being this far-flung thing just for special people.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

Well, I didn't know that. I did I thought, you know, I had this image again, this image in my head of you'd have to go through as you went through, you know, through years of education. I couldn't if somebody said to me you've got to go through seven years, I'd be like, A, I couldn't afford it, and B, seven years is way too long. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:36

Yeah, see I again I was fortunate because uh the student loan thing was cheap when I started my degree. And then because I worked part-time and studied part-time, I paid for my own fees, which were absolutely ridiculous. Like my fees were £750 a year because it was part-time.

SPEAKER_00 38:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:54

Just unbelievably low. I could so I pay for everything out my own salary, even though it was low, my salary. I didn't get into any debt after the initial degree. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:06

I mean, so it's slightly different now, but I think uh can you use your could you like a little channel on how people can do this? That that's another service.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah, yeah. I uh sadly part-time fees aren't as cheap as that anymore, they're more in line with the the rest of it, but um they they cottoned on to that, they did eventually. But um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:30

Yeah, well, by that time we'd got Claire Nash through the system, so we're okay. We're okay. And I I've got I'm looking at what you offer because it's I like the fact that it's whilst you offer a lot, you keep it specific. Um, have you got a favorite thing?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I love the design part. I j I I've I I really find it it's a natural thing. Uh stuff just comes out of me without me really having to try that hard. The hard bit is getting it to actually work and getting it delivered. Um and then it's really exciting at the end when it's when it's there and it's happening and wow. Although it's also very stressful because when people yeah, if a builder rings me, I'm always like, oh god, what's this gonna be? But usually it's just like, oh, we can't find this in the shops. Is this one gonna be okay? But usually it's that, but occasionally there's like oh, oh dear. Or it sometimes it's oh a client just uh has said, Oh, can we just move this bit over here because of XYZ? Oh that oh god, because if you just move one bit, then that has repercussions on multiple other bits. So it's not just that one bit, which is hard to explain to people you haven't worked on a building before, but you can't just move that one thing.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Yeah, the knock-on effect, yeah. I just move this door, well yeah, but now it's like now it's in the middle of the chimney breast. I can imagine it, yeah. And we can't move that because it's attached to the chimney.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

I can imagine, and I know I dr dressed, I jest, but I can imagine some of the yeah, yeah, and we we always try and make stuff work, and most of the time we it it happens, but occasionally we we explain that you know, yes, you can, but you're gonna be 10 grand lighter, and then they go, Okay, it's fine as it is.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Amazing, yeah, amaz amazing. But I get I guess that is just part of the communication because you know, one of your values is communication, obviously, and that is about the communication because people talk about that a lot, but actually what I'm reading, what I'm reading from you and from what you do is it's not just about communication, it's education as well.

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Well, like I mean, this is it's like anything. If if you don't do it yourself, then you don't know. Yeah. Um, yeah, so we just explain why. Because if people know why, they're like, okay. It's not just a no. It's uh yeah. Um, and then that helps future decisions too, because then they come back to me and go, Oh, Claire, I remember you told me this before about XYZ. So I'm guessing we can't do this, but maybe we could do this. Oh yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah. I love that though, because you you're taking people on a journey with you rather than them being treated um as if they're daft, really.

SPEAKER_01 42:38

But people aren't daft, are they? They're just no they're very clever at the thing they do, which is I would be daft at.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

Exactly. There's there's a saying, if you uh I think you've probably heard this before. I know excuse me if I really, really mess this up, but it's if you if you ask a fish to climb a tree, it will fail. Yeah. And it it will it's the same thing, isn't it? But I know if if for example I said to you Claire, I really want to have an extension, or not an extension, I really want to have a barn conversion in the middle of my garden, which I wouldn't do because the garden's not big enough, but I'd be completely intimidated by that conversation. And I would be, yeah, I'd be nervous, I'd be I'd feel on the back foot, I'd feel stupid, I'd be asking lots of, you know, those questions where you go, Oh, sorry, I've got a stupid question. But by you educating and bringing people in, it takes away that intimidation.

SPEAKER_01 43:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the plan.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:37

There's always a plan. I can I can I can tell there's always a plan with you, Claire.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

Yeah. Yeah, I tend to think about things quite a bit. Uh I try not to overthink. I prefer to learn by doing, definitely. And um yeah, because then you get real life feedback.

unknown 43:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

There's no harm with being a reflector.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

There's n there's No harm with that at all. And then I notice here you've got business mentoring as well.

SPEAKER_01 44:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:06

That's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 44:08

Yeah, so I run uh groups and I do one-to-one as well for people in the built environment who run businesses.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Um, because we're all very similar, trying to do the same things, same problems, um, trying to manage cash flow in an industry that's project-based, which means it's very up and down, lot with lots of delays caused by other people, namely the plumbing system.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah. Yeah. So it's tricky. Yeah. Um and we're not taught at school, at architecture school, I mean, or school actually, how to run a business. I mean, we did do like a brief module on it, but it's just so dry, it's so dull. And until you have a real life reason to do it, you don't really learn anyway. Yeah. So it's it's it's kind of a combination of teaching business with help with the real life situations. Uh we see that together. Peer support as well.

SPEAKER_00 45:04

That's brilliant. And is that um small, mid, large business, does it matter?

SPEAKER_01 45:09

It doesn't matter really.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah. Because we big and small, we all have the same problems.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

We do. We do we we absolutely do. I think a lot of the times small businesses try and do it all on their own because they think they've got to. Um and you and and in that case, they need help even more because they're more likely to sway towards the what they enjoy and kind of try and brush what they don't enjoy under the carpet, which a lot of the times is either sales, marketing, the numbers.

SPEAKER_01 45:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yeah, it's it's the numbers for me.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

It is me. It is my I've been in sales for years, but if someone still talks to me about eBit DAR, I'm like, oh, that's boring. I just want to go out and say, yeah, it hit because it is, it's boring. I just yeah, I wanna uh yeah, I wanna go and do the fun stuff. I'd be the one on the thatch roof. Yeah. Having a play, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Exactly. But you do need if you're not gonna do it, then you do need somebody who does know how to do it to support you. And that took me a while. Because you tend to think when it when it's just you and you're bootstrapping, you you tend to think, I can do that, and then you don't realise what you're missing out on by doing that. It uh, it takes you longer because you're crap at it, and b because you hate it, and and then but also uh it's all that time you could have been doing the thing you're really good at, and then excelling in that and promoting that and making more money doing that, which obviously we'd all much rather do work on our strengths all the time and make money that way.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Yeah, 100%. And I think this feeds back into your your your your brand is your actual brand logo as well of the bird's eye view, because to be a good um leader, you know, business owner, CEO, whatever, you have to have that bird's eye view of everything. You don't need to be the expert in everything, yeah, but you do need to have that bird's eye view, and actually by you mentoring them and allowing them to feel like that and give them that it's almost permission sometimes, isn't it, for business owners.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Well, that's why I call it the business space. It's literally a space every um month to work on your business, and uh because it it happens online, it means you have to do it. Like there's a you know, you show up, you work on your business, whereas otherwise it's just client work takes precedent and you never get around to doing that thing you wanted to do a year ago.

SPEAKER_00 47:34

No, no, yeah, it's a bit like you you you you know, often we say you should work on yourself, it's the same, you should work on yourself just as you should work on the business. Yeah. Totally agree. Yeah. I love that. I think that's a really important message. Would you say that was one of the most important messages you'd say to business owners?

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Oh yeah. It it all starts with you. Yeah. Especially if something keeps happening, then you're like, okay, it's not the rest of the world, it's me. Yeah, you're the common denominator.

SPEAKER_00 48:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:12

Yeah. But fortunately, there's lots of help you can get for all the different bits that you struggle with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

I bet there's a lot of people out there that have been really grateful for you and what you know, the service that you and the team are offering. Thanks. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So Claire, before before I wrap this up, is there I I would very much like to say to people, um, you know, please get in touch with you. Um, and I will put your website on the bio. Is there some messages that you'd love to give to the audience that are listening in today?

SPEAKER_01 48:49

Cool. Um yeah, I feel like um at the minute people are probably a bit worried about the economy and stuff like that. I don't tend to worry about that very much. I don't listen to the news on purpose because it's just all doom and gloom. Yeah. I prefer to stick with what is true for me and the facts. Um and I believe like if you're if you're a business owner and a bit worried, there are always clients. Always. It's just a case of making them realise you exist. Um and if you're a homeowner or somebody with land thinking about building, I I really think you can't. It might look like it right now, this specific second, but in building is a long-term thing to do. It's I I feel like homes under the hammer has a lot to answer for with their flips, which by the way, they make up the money on those. It's uh it's never as cheap as they say possible. Um yeah, it's an investment. Yeah. Investment in yourself and the building and your future.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

I do know, and I will reiterate that and underline it and put a rubber stamp on it because I hear it a lot from um people that are corporate worlds that are making excuses for maybe other failings where their sales are down. Um, and you can't just continuously blame the economy or what's happening in government or what's happening in America, for example, or for other things, because there will always be something. Yeah. And you've touched on that just in our very, you know, our short conversation. We've gone through the economic crunch, we've gone through COVID, we've gone through all these different um, you know, educational changes, apprenticeship schemes, we've gone through all these different things that would effectively be an excuse to some teams. Yeah. Um, there's always something, and you've managed to pivot on every step of the way. Um, and that's what is a direct correlation between yourself and other successful entrepreneurs and business owners that have pivoted. Um, so when somebody says the same to me, oh, we've not done well this year because America's done this or whatever's going on. Well, there's always something going on. Yeah. Always. So what happened? Yeah, what happened when you had a good year then? There was, you know, the world wasn't a happy place when you had a good year. So yeah, yeah, we can't say it. So I totally agree with that, and I want to underline that for everybody. So if somebody is listening and they say, Well, I've had a bad year because of whatever, well, is it? Yeah, or do you need to get on the business mentor scheme with Claire Night? Because that's what you need.

unknown 51:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:36

Totally agree. Totally agree. Yeah, totally agree. Cool. Well, I will put that information in there, and I think you know, everybody, you know, listening that is interested in getting into this world, please research what Claire has done and her website. Um, but also those already in the world that would need some business mentoring, I would definitely click on that link. 100% sure. Brilliant. Thank you. No, thank you, Claire. Thank you very much for being on kicking the door down because well, actually, we don't want to kick the door down, we want to build the door, don't we? Yeah. Uh yeah. Okay. Let's not kick cle look let's not kick it down. We're building the doors today with Claire Nash. So thank you very much, Claire. Um, and I appreciate you coming on the show today. It's been lovely. Yeah, me too for me too, yeah. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.