Kicking the Door Down with Carolyn Larue: Exploring the intersection of life coaching and construction

Summary

In this conversation, Debbie and Carolyn discuss Carolyn's multifaceted career as a life coach, electrician, and building automation engineer. They explore the challenges women face in the construction industry, including misogyny and the need for allyship. Carolyn shares her experiences and insights on empowering women through coaching, the importance of education, and the impact of societal norms on gender roles. The discussion also touches on the backlash against gender equality and the role of media in perpetuating misogynistic attitudes. In this conversation, Carolyn and Debbie explore the persistent issues of workplace culture, particularly regarding gender dynamics and the challenges women face in male-dominated industries. They discuss the importance of coaching and empowerment for women, the concept of the spoon theory as a metaphor for energy management, and the necessity of compassion in personal growth. The conversation also highlights the need for addressing emotional triggers in the workplace to foster a healthier environment for all employees.

Takeaways

Carolyn has a diverse career as a life coach and electrician.
Misogyny in the construction industry is often covert and unrecognized.
Women are socialized to keep the peace and avoid conflict.
Coaching can empower women to stand up against misogyny.
Education is crucial for preparing future generations for workplace challenges.
Chivalry can undermine women's capabilities in the workplace.
Backlash against gender equality often follows progress.
Media can perpetuate misogynistic attitudes through humor.
Men also suffer from rigid gender norms and expectations.
Creating a supportive community is essential for women's empowerment. The workplace culture still reflects outdated attitudes towards women.
Women often feel like the negative element in professional settings.
Flipping the narrative can lead to better accountability.
Support systems for women in the workplace are crucial.
The spoon theory helps visualize energy management.
Compassion is essential for personal growth and understanding others.
Emotional triggers can hinder workplace performance.
Practical tools are necessary for managing stress and anxiety.
Coaching can empower women to advocate for themselves.
Addressing emotional well-being is key to improving workplace dynamics.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/carolynlarue/

https://carolynlarue.com/

Kicking The Door Down

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hi, and welcome to Kicking the Door Down. And today I am kicking the door down with Carolyn. Carolyn's a life coach, electrician, and building automation engineer. She's someone who has absolutely lived it and she now supports other women through it. And Carolyn is in Australia, so I'm up well early and this is your night time. How are you doing? It is, I'm doing good. Thanks for inviting me, Debbie. It's my pleasure. I've been following you on LinkedIn and then I found out you were following me. So we had a little follow-off. And it was yeah, I did I uh I was because there's so much about your career that is fascinating to me personally. Starting off with the Australian bit, because I love ours, there's no secrets there, everyone knows I do. But I also love how when people make an assumption that ours is the same as us the same as the UK, but just hotter, and it really isn't. It really isn't. Different policies, different uh culture, different social norms. It's fine, it's it's it's really interesting. But then also your history with being an electrician resonated with me as well, with a lot of engineers that I've known personally, and the building automation side, which is a change in industry even now, is fascinating. And then what we're gonna go through a bit later on in the call is the life coach, but also the fluid art. Wow. And again, you're wearing a fluid art piece on your your neck. Yes, this is one of my pieces.

SPEAKER_02 1:38

Yeah, I've had quite a uh winding journey that I I tend to surprise people. So sometimes when I tell them my story, they're like, What? Really? Like, yeah, very surprised. But yeah, so I'm very passionate about what I do and it all intersects and comes together again, which is really kind of what's the word, serendipitous?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Oh, that's a what that's a word for early in the morning for me. That's a word. You've been built you've had all day to build up to that. Serendipitous. I love it. Might title it serendipitous. But you spent years, was it 12 years in the construction type of industry? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

I uh left school when I was 16 years old, and I went to become an electrician. So I did my apprenticeship with an electrician. And after four years I had my license and I got recruited into building automation, and then I spent most of my career in building automation. And yeah, I absolutely loved the work. It was so challenging and satisfying and it gave me a real sense of purpose. I used to at towards the beginning of my career, I used to jump out of bed at like 5 or 4 a.m. or whatever it was and just be so excited and ready to go. And yeah, I'm sad to say that slowly over the years that kind of chipped away, partly from, you know, life getting normal and doing what life does best, but also from just years of having to prove every time I met somebody new that I had an idea what I was talking about. It's like, yeah, I've been doing this for years. I I still remember this one time when I was on a construction site. I was seeking out this other tradesperson. I had the plans in my hand. I was asking all of the questions, and this tradesperson would answer my 18-year-old apprentice. He wouldn't answer me, he wouldn't even look me in the eye. It's like, really? Are we really still here?

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Wow. Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Yes, we are, unfortunately. And it's interesting, I wonder how that the apprentice felt about that. They probably felt a bit awkward. Did they even notice? I don't know, it must have been weird. Yeah, honestly, I never spoke to the apprentice about it. I probably should have. But I was fuming after that. Yeah, I bet you were. I bet you were. And like you say, that wouldn't have been the first instance as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's one of the things. That was was that one of the pivotal is that sorry, was that one of the most pivotal mo one of the pivotal moments you thought things have got to change?

SPEAKER_02 4:07

It was definitely it added to my list of all the examples of there's something not right here. Like this can't surely we're past this. Surely something can be done to change this and make this better. Because I guarantee, if you went and spoke to that guy who did that, he wouldn't count himself as a misogynist. He wouldn't think he he probably felt shame or uncomfortable that he was talking to a woman or genuinely thought he was doing the right thing. I and that's kind of the flavor of it, is it's often denied and not seen for what it is. I think that if you go, if I was to go back and ask all of the people I ever worked with if there was misogyny in the industry, probably 80% of them, maybe even 90, maybe even a hundred, would say no, there isn't. And I bet you half of those guys would even say that they're allies. It's like you're not an ally just because you don't say horrible things.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

So Yeah, I I I agree, I agree. It's this hidden toxicity and this hidden misogyny that seems to be the flavour of the day right now. And you're absolutely right, you're not you're not, you can't say you're an ally just because you don't join in with the verbal attacks. And I'm not saying attack like it was an attack, but you know, it's it it's one of those thousand cuts, isn't it, that kills a woman's career. And you know, an example can be for those listening of that is you know, if if there is something that's said by a guy to a female that is not appropriate in front of other guys and the other guys don't chip in, don't either defend or don't put that man right and just go silent, they are actually complicit in the behaviour. Just because they have not joined in and said anything, they are complicit and they can't call themselves allies in that moment because they're part of it, they're part of the problem. And this is this is the issue with that situation there. If there was other men, really what I mean the apprentice was 18, so perhaps not enough life experience.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

Two other adult tradespeople in the in the room in at the time, they were not exactly part of the conversation, but they were giving us their attention, they were watching what was happening. None of them said anything, did anything, or reacted in any way. Yeah, and just said something instead of leaving it with me.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that and it's not right that it should just leave and sit with you, because in most occasions then as the as the woman, if you'd have pointed it out to him, which you could have done, but if you'd have pointed it out to him, it then falls into the double burden, the double burden debate where you know, as women we have to think well, we don't have to, but we do without thinking about it, we tend to overthink what is that person gonna think if I say this? How are my words gonna land? How is their emotional state gonna be? What damage could I possibly do going forward if I point this out? And therefore we we naturally um in those situations undermine ourselves just to keep or just to help the status quo, or or just to defend that person's own personality or make them feel better, which is not right, but that almost uh kind of describes the situation that you're telling me about there.

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Yeah, yeah, and also as women, we're socialized very much to from from a very young age, we're socialized to be good girls, we're socialized to keep the peace, to not be a burden. If we show anger, then we're being bossy, like if we if there's so many examples again and again and again that we get trained as women that we are the peacekeepers, we are the sponge, we absorb. So we naturally go silent in those situations. Like we we tr we are trained to not not cause waves, not cause a fuss. And I used to really have a hard time at my with myself after the fact where I would blame myself for not doing it better or not having a better script. So, like say somebody made a a misogynistic joke, like, or whatever, the best that I could come back with was you've crossed a line, or that's not appropriate. And it's like I didn't have any scripts to come back. And then afterwards I would blame myself and shame myself of oh well clearly I'm not quick witted enough. And yeah, it's um so disheartening when they That's so true.

SPEAKER_01 8:31

Why do we do that? We really do blame ourselves, don't we? We go away and we're thinking about it and it's constantly going around in our heads. Why yeah, because we are trained from a young gauge, you're absolutely correct. So we we can't exactly pull out from our own little pocket of scripts to read from.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Yeah. But through my coaching, I absolutely help women be able to ground and be able to have that strength and have those pre-thought out scripts that when those events do come up, they do have something to say. So they're not left alone in it. And also the crazy making of am I making this up? Am I am I making this a big deal? Am I making this bigger than it needs to be? Am I just being too sensitive? And yeah, when you have someone that you can work with that can echo back to you and and even a community of people that can reinforce, no, you are not crazy, you are not the problem. It can help us be grounded in the moment so that way we can have better, better stances and ways of approaching these situations.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

This is exact this is something that resonates again because I noticed something on LinkedIn this morning, actually, it was somebody talking about trying to get more how you know, how do we educate younger girls that are coming through education about the world in construction? How do we attract them? And there's a lot of stuff about attraction still. We won't I'll come on to how we maintain women in this world a bit later on. But the the talking about it at school is great. I think we're, you know, everybody is is showing much more about what's available in the world of construction and engineering now at school. I genuinely believe things are changing in that. It's not great, but it's much better. But this piece here you're talking about is what is still not really talked about. And, you know, I think we should be preparing kids at school for this because, you know, they might choose this educate, this this career path, land themselves in a world of construction, and then f and any industry, by the way, and then fight face exactly what you've just talked about there. And no one's told them about it, or no one's prepared them or coached them through it, and not just the females, but also the boys. No one's coached the boys on actually this is how you should be creating a safe space for yourself and other women entering the industry.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

Yeah, and these are the differences and these are the similarities. Like, I remember I just wanted to be treated like one of the boys, and I often found that when I worked with somebody new, it would be like I was an alien. It's like, oh, what do I do with her? Like, I don't know how to work with this person. It's like just tell me what the job is. I'll grab the ladder of like of course I'm going to do my job. Like, just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that I'm going to be like, oh, I can't carry the the cable drum. Or it's like, no, it's my job to carry a ladder and and a cable drum and a drill. And like, I remember people used to look at me backwards when I'd walk down the city carrying literally a drum of cable on my arm, a drill in my hand, a ladder on my shoulder, and a tool belt in my other hand. It's like, yeah, they they'd be like, what is this girl doing? What is this? Yeah. So I mean, we can we can do just as much as any any guy can do. We might not be as strong as some men, but we can we are still as capable. And something else that I always found surprised people that I worked with was because I wasn't as physically strong, I was forced to engineer ways of doing things that were more ergonomic and were more helpful for me. And I used to do things like um I used to put a stick of conduit. If I was having to wheel like a big drum of um of cable or something like that for a long distance, say through a car park or whatever, I'd put a stick of conduit through it and wheel it like a wheelbarrow. And the guy used to look at me like, who taught you that? I'm like, I don't know, I made it up. Like it makes sense. We come up with these things when we need to. Yeah. And going back to the misogyny piece, one of the most covert misogyny things that happened to me was it it leaves you confused at the time when it happens because it on the surface it looks like it's genuinely a nice guy thing to do. But I remember being on a site where I had another tradesperson that was showing me where I needed to go to do the work in the panel. And he refused to allow me to carry the ladder, to carry my ladder to the site that I was working on. So he carried it for me in front of all the other guys. And guess what happened? I suffered from that for the rest of that job. Because guess what? She gets she gets handouts, she gets looked after, like she gets it. Well, how come I don't get someone carrying my ladder? Thanks, guy. And I kept saying to him, No, this is my job. I don't want you to. And I ended up giving in after like three or four rounds of Wow. Yeah, it almost it becomes undercover bullying.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yes. Because that's she was like, So I paid the cost, I paid a price for that. You did, you did. And this is this is where this is this is really interesting because it is like covert bullying. And maybe you didn't mean it, but underneath maybe you did. I don't know. You know, we're never gonna know we're never gonna know that.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

But until until businesses start to look I think in the moment he was genuinely trying to be chivalrous, he was genuinely trying to look after me as a woman. But the thing is that that kind of chivalry, it puts me down. It says, I need to take care of you, I need to protect you. And it's like, no, I need to do my job, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I I need your respect, not your caretaking. That's a really good point. Respect, not caretaking. That's that's a good topic for that's a good topic for a whole podcast, actually. Respect not caretaking. That's it is because it does show how in that moment that guy was just trying to do his best. Um so you know, we don't want to shoot him down because he was just trying to be a nice person and probably doing what he was brought up and trained to do from a young age as well. But actually, it in that that signpost there is exactly where people, you know, guys need some help and some coaching, because then they get confused as well, because you the feedback you get is all we don't know what our place is anymore. If we're not meant to if we're not meant to help or be chivalrous, what what are we meant to do? Well, just ask, actually. You could just ask or you know, or just wait to be asked. Um, but they find that uncomfortable. And I I get it, I totally get it, because this isn't about you know battering them, but it is about just opening up the world and saying, hey, this is this is what we really want. Yeah. And I I bet that that guy would have been one of the people that would count himself as an ally.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

He would have that was him helping me.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, and that a countering ally.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

Yeah, so this this goes back to that education piece that you were talking about. Yeah. How can I actually be an ally? How can I actually help support someone?

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Maybe it's it's uh a point that they need more ally role models around the industry that are talking yeah, that are talking about it. I was doing some not deep dive research, but I was since talking to you, I was looking more into the keynote speakers that are available in Australia, and there seem to be a lot more women than men that talk about this. There was one guy that I found that was really interesting, but there was much more women that are talking about this now than than men. Whereas in the UK, there's a lot more men that are coming out talking about being an ally.

SPEAKER_02 16:05

That's great. That's really so important. And one of the things that isn't really as obvious is that men pay the price of this too.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

They do.

SPEAKER_02 16:15

So one example of that, so speaking about those messages that we get, so one of the things is don't be a sissy love, like toughen up. So do you do you have the saying over in England of have a spoon of cement and toughen up? No. No, that's a big one in Australia. And so if ever you show any kind of I don't know, vulnerability or anything like that, y it's really seen as negative. Yeah. Whereas we've got different sayings, just not that, yeah. Yeah. Whereas to grow a pair or to man up, so being more masculine is apparently a good thing. Whereas being a girl or being there's a few other words there that I'm not gonna say on a podcast, but but usually the negative connotations are referred are referring to being like a woman, being a female.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Exactly. So we get those. So we get it's normally referring to a female's genitalia. Yes. So yeah, that's it. So we get that. And and also the sad the sad thing as well is um there's the negative connotations are either, you know, referring to don't be a female or don't be homosexual. That is a that's is still an undercurrent that you hear in the UK, and you know, that our communities here have fought for years and years and years to push back on that. Say, well, hold on, why why is that? But and then it doesn't help with I don't know if you've seen the new lace hap hui vis that seem to be hitting the high streets and so ridiculous. They're not they're not even meeting a proper standard for for what they are, basically. But they've they've hit because they they somebody has designed these, uh I think they've started being sold on Sheen and places like that, but they're all over now, and it's uh they in my opinion they should be banned. But these these high visas, like I say, they don't meet the spec, but they're lace. And there was a big debate about it on LinkedIn not too long ago, and one some someone from a construction site it was a manager on a construction site actually openly admitted that they use these high visas as uh as as what's the word, punishment for the guys, and they make them they make them wear them so that they can be a woman, they're basically known as a woman for the day. So the punishment is to be a woman for the day for the and he openly put it on there like it was funny. Yes, he got slated, and so he should have been, but he posted that. He was so confident in the moment to post that, he posted it on his own platform, you know, with his job title, the company he works for, yeah. Construction site, that would have been landed as a hero joke. Exact yeah, and that's what he thought. And you you think you've just that you've put that onto a professional networking platform, you're that confident that that's okay, and probably and therefore it tells me all about the culture of the company is in and everything else, and he he wouldn't even have thought about that. That is a massive, misogynistic, I don't know what else to call that person.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

Yeah, well, and see one of the problems and one of the reasons why this has such a cost for men as well as women is because it causes so every man and every woman has feminine traits and masculine traits.

SPEAKER_03 19:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:30

And when we are told that for a female you have to get rid of your masculine traits, and for a male, you have to get rid of your female traits, we're living as half humans. Yes. So no wonder we have such a high suicide rate in construction in men.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Because they're not allowed to have their feminine, which is negative, side. But it's part of a human.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

It's true, it's true. Construction still gets this really hard wrap, doesn't it? And e even more so, the different trades within construction, because I think when people when we talk about construction, people often think someone's just driving around in a dig out or laying some bricks. And there are so many fascinating trades within construction that are amazing. Um when I've been on site and just it your mind can just you can immediately sort of silo the different trades, but they're all getting on, they're all working and doing what they need to do to build the most amazing, amazing constructions, and but they all get their own rap as well within their own trade. And I've noticed there's a growing trend on social media. We're going off piece now, but I've just remembered there's a growing trend on social media where people are taking the mick out of the different trades, and they've done it with the different militaries as well, I've noticed, but they've done it on the different trades, and they're and they have the electricians as as what was the the electricians are sort of working half a day, taking a load of money, and then going home. The bricklayers will only work in the sunshine when it's not raining, and then they have the scaffolders that are walking around beating people up, and and this really negative stuff that's hit social media, and it's very similar and falls under the manosphere type of thing, and you think, my word, and what have they got? They've got plasters doing somewhere else, and they've got another part of it that is very feminine, and you think, Oh my lord, so it immediately, and they're calling it straight out the misogynistic values of those of that industry, and you think like it's a hero, like it's funny, and they've created and they've got thousands of clicks, thousands of likes, thousands of followers, and it is just another version of the manosphere, but it is literally attached itself to a whole industry. That's what we're fighting against.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Yeah, it's disgusting. So, speaking of of that, that kind of hits on something else that I wanted to talk about today, which was around every time that gender equality hits a new goal or a new target or a new milestone, every time throughout History since gender equality has become a thing, there's also been something called backlash. Yeah. So we hit a milestone and then there's a wave of backlash, which is essentially fear of the unknown and fear of change.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

And usually the message is some covered up version, but essentially goes back to women belong in the home, raising kids, that's where they'll be happy. Yeah. And and the reason why women are so unhappy now is because they're working, because of this liberation, which is so wrong. But but every time it happens. And so when I see things like the manosphere and what you're talking about even, I actually see that as an indication that we're growing, that we're getting to the next level.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:48

So I try to spin it in more of a positive way because there's so much negativity out there. But the truth is we are moving the we are moving the bar. We are getting further and further. And that's exciting to me.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

It's true. I love that you put it like that because actually that makes me feel like I want to fight more. Right. That's yeah, that's what's in people like you and I, isn't it? It's like, oh, this is getting interesting. This is this is let's get the popcorn out. You know, the emoji with the popcorn and the thing, let's get the popcorn out. And let's stir it up some more. Because we are the change makers, and the people listening and the people getting involved now are the change makers, and that's what this is all about. And you're right, because there's there's there's a I was chatting with Mika and Hattie who run Stopcocks here in the UK. Started years ago, and it's for women plumbers and heating engineers, and it's moved on to all trades now. It's fascinating. But you know, they they were on uh they're not on it anymore, but uh there is a a radio show here at that that is here, that is live, that obviously has to follow you know the UK laws for broadcasting, etc. etc. It doesn't. It thinks it can do what it likes, but it has been always able to, and they and it's also backed by two of the biggest uh sort of retailers here that can that that go for the trades. And they look after the trades, but they also look after anyone that's going in to do their house talk. So they're a bit of a mix between the two. Two of the biggest ones are let people figure out who it is, and this radio channel is played over their speakers all day long for anyone coming in, whether it be families or tradespeople. And the jokes that are on this are a hot or misogynistic. They're all the one, the one, and then they're taking the clips, like the magic clips, like we do on the podcasts, and putting them on their social media, so it's on Facebook. And I did a very, very light touch deep dive to send it off to one of the retailers to say, is this appropriate? And I did a whole piece on it, never got a response, by the way. So I'd call them out for that. But they there were jokes about prostitutes, jokes about going into women's uh houses that are looked after by women, jokes about what it's like going in and into that female house, and you think, what? Jokes about wives? Oh, jokes about wives, and they're like this was okay, but you're right. Actually, the reason they're doing it is because is because this trend is growing for for women are breaking through now and they hate it, and that brings up fear. It does, doesn't it? Good.

SPEAKER_02 25:18

Yeah, I I still remember countless times, so many times, being on a construction site and having one of a similar radio station playing and having there be these misogynistic jokes while I'm there doing my work. And the message was quite clear as a woman, time and time again, is that I'm the problem, I'm the one that's making people uncomfortable, that I'm not one of the boys and that I'm not going to ever fit in. So you find sorry. I remember going going to sites where they'd have a like more permanent sites where they'd have a like a site shed or whatever. And like they'd complain about how they had to take down all of their posters and all of this stuff. And they'd complain about how on Fridays they couldn't go to the uh to the strip club anymore, we'd have to go to some other boring restaurant because I was there. What why why were they why were they I mean, there's so many things wrong there, isn't there? It's like why So I'm hoping that all of this has changed, because that was ten years ago now. So maybe the industry has moved since then. Um I really hope so.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

I walked onto premises the other month with a calendar up, the other month. So not so sure. I'm not but with it's it this mentality of the strip clubs and stuff as well, and being okay in the work environment. I heard about from a professional side of things, this happening from a business perspective, just because a bunch of people were over in Vegas with work on an exhibition in a corporate setting, still went into a strip club for a business lunch. And you think it's still happening, it's still happening. Why is this still okay? Okay, they're still running, they're still going, these places are still going. That is not the debate here at all. What the debate is is that is not a business setting, does it have to be? Yeah, and is it your fault just because you're there?

SPEAKER_02 27:09

You know, you're it's also set to that so that when there's the woman, so when I was there, I then became the thing that was stopping them from having this this enjoyable event. They had to give up this thing for me, this thing that's actually inappropriate in that space because I was there. So it sets up that every time that there's a woman that works, they are automatically ousted and feel like they're other than even though everyone did the right thing and took the posters down, it's still there. It's still there.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Women are constantly used or seen as the the negative element then, aren't they, in that situation? They're the conduit for everything going wrong or the bad you know, th them taking their toys away, basically. And there was I was watching I was watching something over the weekend actually, and it was a really interesting clip uh about how women were treated during a period of time when there was uh a rapist on a school campus in America and and it's I know it's it's the extreme here, but actually it's not. It's really not because it's the same theme. And the women were all told, don't leave the house. And we hear this all the time. Even even I've heard it myself when there's been lots of stuff happening when I lived up in my old place in Birmingham. The police went round telling everybody, don't just don't leave your house. Can you just stay at home? Don't go running, don't go out on your own. And it was all the women that were then repressed and put back into the home. They couldn't leave. The guys could carry on doing what they want. But then for this particular thing, they flipped it and they said, Right, can all the men stay in? Can all the men stay in? And it was it was chaos with the feedback, the arguing, why are we getting our rights taken away from us just because of one man? Well, isn't that hilarious? What? We're perfectly fine with it being the other way around. Yeah, perfectly fine. In fact, it was the you know, the other way around was the first go-to solution by all the authorities and everybody put the women back in the put the women back in the homes and the men can carry on doing what they want. Switched it and they went crazy. And you think, actually, that's exactly what should happen every time there's one of these people on the loose, put all the men in the house and then they can't they can't do it and hold each other accountable. Yeah, let's flip flip the narrative and see how it goes. But it was really interesting, but I know it's the it's kind of the extreme, but actually, is it because when you've got that scenario there that you've just given out there, that they feel like they've had their toys taken out toys taken away from them, and it was your fault as the woman because you were there.

SPEAKER_02 29:46

So this actually segues into another story I wanted to share around. I remember one time when I was working on a construction site and I was working with another tradesperson trying to fault find an issue. So I was working with the other technician that was there, and there was an apprentice that was working near us, and he was constantly trying to interrupt to get my attention and to uh try and pick me up. And I just kept saying, Sorry, mate, not interested, I'm trying to work. And it got to the point where the guy that I was working with turned to the apprentice and said, Look, mate, she's clearly not interested, let it go. And he still wouldn't really listen. He's calmed down a bit, but he still wasn't really listening. And I just absorbed all of that as like, you know, whatever. Well, what am I gonna do about that? And kept focusing on my work. The person who I was working with ended up going to the builder and reporting this apprentice. The apprentice was given a formal warning. From that day on, nobody on the construction site would look me in the eyes, nobody said good morning to me. People wouldn't talk to me unless they had to. They would only talk to me about work stuff. So once again, I didn't report him. I had this negative thing happen to me, and I'm the one who beared the major cost of being rejected from the community.

SPEAKER_03 31:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Wow. So because even when even when the system is trying to do what it thinks is right by me, trying to protect me, it actually has a cost. So how can we do this better? How can we support women better that women can advocate for themselves so that men can be better allies? How can we do this better? There has to be a better way.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

And that brings in your coaching, because it you know, you it definitely brings in your coaching. So if if some if there's a woman going through this or she's about to enter the market, she reaches out to you, what happens in that process? Do you is it online, is it face-to-face? What what and do you offer support for businesses as well?

SPEAKER_02 31:43

Yeah, it's online. I haven't offered support for businesses yet, though it is an area that I have been very interested in considering working in. But yeah, for right now I'm working on supporting other women and giving them the support that I didn't have that I desperately needed.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Because I know how isolating it is, how when I was in that situation, I didn't have anybody that I could talk to that would actually get it. Like people would hear my some of my stories and they'd be like, oh my gosh, that's terrible. But there was nobody that actually got the weight of it or the crazy making of it. It's like, am I too much? Am I taking this too seriously? So being able to offer that support to somebody else in a way where I can understand and connect with what they're going through, but then also provide them with the tools that they can use any time of the day, with me or without me, so that they can then strengthen how they show up. And so that these things can be water off the duck's back. So these things can help empower them without eventually eroding them away with Death by a Thousand Cut.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

And if they can respond in a way going through this coaching pattern with you, that will help educate everyone else in that environment as well, I imagine.

SPEAKER_02 33:01

Yeah, well, see, one of the things is that so any group that's suppressed, any group that's been taught to be less than, to absorb, to maintain, to to do these behaviors, we've internalized this. So this the system of suppression requires us to buy in. It requires us to believe in that message. So when we start to counter those beliefs, we start to not play the game anymore. And when we stop playing the game, the people around us wake up too. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

That's that's so valid. And it's it's really important that we have those sessions available for the women so that they can Well, they're coming to you because they probably are starting to realize that they need help as well. Yeah. And do do you open these sessions to everybody? Is it male and female or is it just women at the moment?

SPEAKER_02 33:54

At the moment I'm specifying I'm focusing on women or people who are not who don't identify as men. Like so naive, yeah, however that shows up for them.

SPEAKER_03 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

And yeah, one day in my career I would love to open it up to men as well. But at this at this time, at this moment in time, I'm working with women and people who identify as women or as non-binary or gay.

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I think yeah, exactly. And I it it's really, it's really important because there's so many, as you touched on earlier, with the high suicide rate in construction, much of that will be because people are suppressing, as you say, their own personalities, and that covers any of the minorities.

unknown 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:36

Yeah, I t I totally agree. And I think you've probably got you've probably got a portfolio full right now, opening it up even for other we'll keep you a bit busy. We'll keep you a bit busy. But I do I it's it is such an important space to talk about this because you know, the more you know the governments are saying we're, you know, I hate using the phrase tick box, but they're kind of oh, you know, we're opening this up, yeah, we are going into education, yeah, we're encouraging people into these spaces, but are we? And are we doing it in the right way and are we protecting them when they're there? And are we educating? There's there's there's you know, there's an element here where people there's recruiting people, isn't there, putting them in their place. But if you don't make that environment safe for them by educating the people that are already there, it's not gonna fix the problem because they're just gonna leave.

SPEAKER_02 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

And then when they leave, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

And without making attempts to address the culture and to call out the misogyny and educate people about it. Like what is covert misogyny? I didn't know what that was until years after I left the trade and started researching and learning about gender equality and all these things. I started to really that's why that felt that's why that was so hard to take. That's why that situation was so whatever it was. Or and starting to when I was in the industry, I really took everything on as me. Like I knew that there was gender inequality, I knew that I was the only woman, and I knew lots of different things. And I always wondered, is this because I'm a woman? But I also internalized, it's like, oh, I am too much, I am doing this, I am doing that. And it's like, yeah, I do need to toughen up. So I I made it about me, and I really tried to fix myself to fit in the trade, instead of allowing the trade to open up to accept all of the talent that I had to bring.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

So you're trying to suppress yourself, and also you you spin in negative language in on yourself as well, which is horrible. You must have felt terrible. But this is why we need you to be able to coach, coach people that they don't have to do that. There is a way there is a way around it, and you know, we can't wait for businesses to change. Yes, through it, apologies. Yeah, um apologies, it is through it, and we can't just wait for businesses to change or governments to change. It's changing yeah, we've got to just do this. Yeah, we've got to just do this. Now, I when we spoke before prior to the call, you talked about the spoon theory. Yes. I love this. Yes, it's explain to the yeah, explain to the listeners what the spoon theory is.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Yeah, so spoon theory has been around for quite a while. I'm not gonna try and claim it, but I do love it. It's a really good way of visualizing and making something tangible that's intangible. So the spoon theory goes that uh through any given day, we're given a certain number of spoons in the morning. And we can use up those spoons throughout the day so that we can uh, I don't know, go to work, we can do this other thing, we can go out to dinner, we could make dinner, we could clean up. So we use up our spoons with all of the activities that we do. So the spoons are kind of an analogy for your energy. Yeah. And so something that I love to ask my clients and myself is how can you get more spoons? Because sleep isn't the only way to do it. And the answer lies in your childhood. What were the things as a kid that brought you joy? What were the things that you lost yourself into the flow of it or the excitement of it? For me, I very much so was into animals and into art, and these were things that I could just lose myself in for hours. So one of the things about doing art, I use it as a tool for many different things, but one of them is to give me more spoons because I get back. And something else that society's kind of really embedded, at least in me, is this idea that play and creativity are like somehow luxurious or like excessive too much. Like it's not really valued, but play and creativity give you more spoons so that you can do more, so that you can be more, you can fill into who you're supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Um I love it. I've been thinking about it the whole time and really pouring into the analogy of what gives me more spoons. I I just it's really it's it's given me a bit of a wake-up call, actually, Carolyn. It really has. Yeah, it has. It's given me a wake-up call because you know we talk about being your being your most authentic self and being in your happy place and all that sort of stuff, but actually, what is it? What does that mean and why are we doing it? So it was it was it was it really helped me link the two together. So I appreciated that. And actually, it when we talked about it before, that's that's what led us in, I believe, to your fluid art and how you, you know, because you are an incredi this is lovely. This is an incredible piece of what you offer as well.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Yeah, so for me, I very much incorporate or encourage my clients around the creativity and play space. I want people to be able to reclaim what it is to play and be creative, but it's also, I mean, particularly fluid art is a beautiful tool for letting go of control and letting go of perfectionism and going with the moment, letting it be. So it's a really great way of embodying these things because if you try to control fluid art, you will get mud. It's not gonna look good. So, and and one thing about fluid art is that it's accessible at any level as well. So it doesn't have to be. I mean, there are professional artists that do like science-level amazing stuff to get beautiful techniques, and you can go there, and I love going there personally. I can geek out on it all day, but you don't have to. Anyone, even like little kids, you can do fluid art with just paint and water if you want to. And you can create some beautiful techniques, some beautiful effects and beautiful artworks. So I I really love using it, and I also love using it as a way of getting familiar with different emotions and really embodying and and building acceptance and building resilience while doing the painting, while creating the art. Like what colours feel make you feel this way? What movements, what what expressions? And it kind of really helps people like dip into their bodies and dip into grounding into that.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Do you find that being able to because it's the same with movement, isn't it? It's a similar, similar thing. It's like unlocking the boundaries of years of boundaries that have been applied to us, being able to do the fluid art and start to tune into what feels good and start to tune into your emotional, emotional part, being the emotional part of you starts to pull down those barriers and unlock those doors that have been solid for years and years. Is that part of the the vibe?

SPEAKER_02 41:35

Yeah, well, so when we engage our left and right brain in a process, our learning, our memory is strengthened. So when we're trying to shift a belief or when we're trying to embody something new, it can really help us take that learning and that experience deeper. Yeah. And particularly when I have an artwork that I'm really trying, when I make an artwork to express something that I'm really trying to embed, a new belief that I want to embed, I put that artwork where I can see it every day. So when I come in and I sit down at my desk, I can look at that artwork and and like connect with what it felt like when I created it. So it really, really helps me ground into that work. So yeah, so I I also use um simple drawings and other things in the heartwork journaling style of coaching that really help people get perspective and be able to have more compassion for themselves through different situations and be able to get, yeah, just a different perspective and a different angle on on what the issue is.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

You touch on compassion there. I think that's such a big thing that people need to forgive themselves a little bit. And as we we you spoke about it earlier, how you felt when you didn't have an answer all the time for people on site, and then we beat ourselves up about it afterwards, don't we? So actually having compassion for yourself is really important.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yeah, absolutely. Nothing grows in toxic soil. We can't we can't shame ourselves into growing, we can't criticize ourselves into growing. We have to love ourselves and hold ourselves with compassion.

SPEAKER_03 43:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:11

That's when we grow, that's when we change.

SPEAKER_01 43:13

Yeah that must be a big key element to your coaching is how how people can learn how to be more compassionate.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah, and I actually find that um the more we learn to be compassionate to ourselves, the more we can hold compassion for other people, even when they're doing things that we don't like. Like me holding compassion for that guy that insisted on carrying my ladder. It's like, okay, I can I can forgive him and I can forgive myself for that for what happened. And it's okay. And I can do something differently from a place of power instead of falling into those same same potholes every time.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

That's what it's about, isn't it? That's what it's about. It that that's the moment. How do we change it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah, so I I help women get the results that they want. So instead of Doing the same things that we've been because if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. So let's and and how's that working for you? Like let's try something new, let's try something different. And these things are proven, they these are things that have helped countless clients before, helped countless people before. They've changed my life personally. Um and they do work. And there's lots of different tools as well. I wanted to share that not all of my clients are into the arts. Not all of them want to do that. And that is perfectly fine. They don't have to do those they don't have to use the tools that doesn't work for them. What what kind of other tools would be available for your clients then?

SPEAKER_01 44:41

I use a lot of different tools, but I use things like um mindfulness and I've noticed on I've noticed when I've uh during conversations before, there's been a lot of mindfulness, a lot of breath work, a lot of thought processing. And I know with your coaching tools as well, the questions that you use will extract different types of behaviour through previous through previous incidents that that person might have been through. So it's very deep on the psychological perspective of it to get them to drill in and understand the foundations of their thought processes through their own core beliefs as well. And I think that is such a massive tool that they won't even know that they're using on themselves once they've left one of your coaching sessions. I think that that is fascinating because it's educating them on how to coach themselves afterwards as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:36

Yeah. And I I also teach my clients very practical tools that even so I help people so that if you're in that moment where your palms are getting sweaty and you your your chest is getting tight, you can't breathe properly, your face is starting to flush.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:53

I help people know what to do in those moments. I help people know what to do when their head is racing and they needing to come back. Like I remember I used to go to the bathroom and just like cry and be like, like, hope that nobody could hear me. And it's like you can reset your nervous system that can help you in the moment get through so you can resurface with strength and drive the results that you want instead of being at the mercy of your nervous system and at the mercy of the people who you're engaging with.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Carolyn, can I just say I love your honesty on this because there's so many, there's so many times you hear people say, you know, we in that moment, these are the tools we're going to give you, and therefore you're fixed. Crack on. And that's not how it is at all, because you have to practice, we have to hit these walls to have the examples to practice on. Um we have to continue putting ourselves out there in these situations of psychological danger to learn and practice these skills. So we have it's not a case of we learn the skill and then go back into the workplace and everything's fine. That's not this at all, is it? And actually, you're being really honest about it, and we need more people that are being honest about it to say this is what's happening, this is this is the reality of the situation, and these tools that you're giving people are arming themselves as well. And the more we try and fluff it up with designer language, the more we're actually covering it up, and the more we're belittling the situation, and and and by belittling it, people are then wandering around thinking, oh, it's not that bad. It's not that bad. What are they on about? It's actually not that bad. The results are getting better. Well, okay, let's look at the reality. Otherwise, fluffing it up is not going to help anybody. So I really admire the honesty of this because there's going to be so many women out there, then so many people out there, uh, or the minorities that are thinking, well, that you know, this this fluffed up language is not the experience I'm having. And maybe it's me, maybe I'm being too oversensitive, and they're not. So no. So I admire the honesty here because we have to be to to break through these extra barriers, we have to be honest about it and and call it and hold a mirror up to what's happening. Yeah, I t I think that's wonderful. And if if you had five minutes with an MD, what would you tell them if their business was doing this? Apart from getting a cattle prod out.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

So once again, I'd say if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got.

unknown 48:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:27

And if that's not working, try something different. So this blur, my mind is going in so many different directions to answer this question.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

I've given you a fluid art uh question, haven't I? It's all going off on the pages, because you know, from from from uh an MD's perspective, they often think about the the cash flow. But yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

Well, and so something else that I'd say is that we like to think that we're logical beings that have emotions, but the truth is that we're emotional beings that can think logic.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

So we need to be able to learn how to work with our brains because our brains, we have a mammalian brain, a a reptilian brain, a mammalian brain, and then there's the prefrontal cortex, which is the part that where we think and we have our logic. The thing that I didn't know until I went off and started studying psychology is that when we get triggered, when there's a perceived threat, we the the reptilian brain gets triggered and all of the blood flow goes away from your prefrontal cortex to your mammalian brain, to your um to your limbs so that you can run. It goes away from your stomach, your heart starts racing faster. So when you get triggered, you cannot think. You logic goes out the window. That's why we do crazy things sometimes, and then we look back and go, what what happened there? Why did I do that? This is why. So learning how to regulate your nervous system, learning how to master your mind, learning how to address these thoughts that get you unhinged are actually the key to being able to get those better results. If you have a result that you want to earn more money, if you have a result that you want to hit some target, then what is getting in the way of you getting those results? How can we break that down? And yeah, relying on logic alone fails because we're not logical beings.

SPEAKER_01 50:24

That's exactly it. That is that is exactly what would sell that over to an MD because you think, well, you know, or any business leader, and I know you're not in that space, but I think you will be for sure, because you know, you know, ultimately their job is to accelerate business growth, whether it be on a construction site, an engineering company, it doesn't matter actually. It doesn't matter. Any business leader is there to do the job as efficiently as they possibly can. But if you've got emotional reactions that are happening that are slowing this down and it's suppressing the talent that's on in that particular area, there's the problem. That's what needs fixing, and they need to die, they need to do the due diligence to find out what the problem is. And it's people like yourselves and and other other areas of expertise that can do that diagnostics for them efficiently and properly. Yeah. And it's more sustainable.

SPEAKER_02 51:19

I actually offer an overthinking reset kit on my website if anyone signs up, where it will send practical tools to be able to get the ball rolling. Yeah, and to help people be able to do to be able to address this in the moment so that they can actually have tools that they can use real time.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

Yeah. And that's what we need from from somebody in the experience of having, you know, diagnosed with mental health in specific areas. That toolbox is hugely important. And that's what it's called. It's a toolbox. It's a it's what it's what it it that's what it refers to. That's what we need. So I love the idea that that's been on there. I mean, really, what you're offering is a toolkit for people, a practical toolkit as well. Absolutely. Yeah. And guidance on how to use it. A hundred percent. You can't, you can't, yeah, it's it's not, it's not just a case of downloading a pack of cards and giving it a go. This is a hundred percent needs a bit of guidance because we can all try, and I think that's great when people do, but the guidance is really what's needed, and just having somebody to talk to as well in those moments, and somebody like yourself with proper lived experience is really important. And when you know, when I've spoken to you and I've heard what you've been through, you're so open and confident in the vulnerability of what you've been through as well. You can talk about those from a point of not just experience but also the emotional experience that you went through during that time. Carolyn, we've gone over the hour. Can you believe it? My gosh, we have, I know, we have neither of us are drunk, and neither of us are drunk, and this is this is a story we'll have to tell people after. It's but it's so true. It's this has been such a fascinating, and we could have gone on. We've got a whole lot of a thing. I t I warned you this would happen. So, listeners, before we come on, Carolyn Carolyn was a little bit nervous, and I said, Don't be nervous, because we will just chat. So, and there's so much to talk about because of your lived experience, it's fascinating. So, maybe we should get Carolyn back for an epit a second episode. I think so.

SPEAKER_02 53:28

So that would be wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Carolyn, thank you. Honestly, it's been wonderful listening to you today. Thank you so much. I will have to stop it there. Thank you so, so much. I am for those that are listening. I I'm gonna put Carolyn's website and her details in the bio that will appear on the podcast, and also uh it will appear on the advertisements for this particular podcast episode as well. But if you want to get in touch and you don't find those details, you can always reach out to myself or Carolyn Direct on LinkedIn. So thank you very much, Carolyn. You should have a lovely evening. Thank you so much, Debbie. Been my absolute pleasure, thank you.