Kicking the Door Down with Rob Bennett: Why Curiosity Matters More Than Grades

Empowering Future Innovators: Rob Bennett's Mission in STEM

Discover how Rob Bennett inspires confidence and curiosity in youth.

In a world where curiosity often takes a backseat, Rob Bennett is on a mission to ignite passion for learning in the next generation. In our recent conversation, Rob shared insights from his journey and his commitment to reshaping how young people engage with STEM subjects.

The Power of Curiosity

Rob grew up in Cornwall during a time when learning was less structured and more exploratory. He recalls,

"School got in the way of learning... it was an interruption in my day."

This idea resonates with many who feel trapped by traditional education systems that prioritise rote memorisation over genuine curiosity.

Embracing Failure as a Learning Tool

Rob emphasises the importance of reframing failure. He believes that failure is not the end but rather a vital part of the learning process. In his workshops, he actively encourages students to embrace failure:

"If I did a workshop where everything was easy, you wouldn't learn anything."

Confidence and Collaboration in Learning

Interestingly, Rob has observed a consistent trend in his workshops: female teams often outperform their male counterparts in engineering challenges. This achievement, he notes, often stems from their natural inclination towards collaboration, while male teams tend to compete.

"The only thing that you lack is confidence," he tells young girls in his workshops, reinforcing their potential for success.

A Call for Change in Education

Rob challenges the conventional wisdom that university is the best path for everyone. He advocates for apprenticeships as a more viable route for many students, urging a shift in how we perceive success in education.

"I would say apprenticeship is by far the best route," he asserts, highlighting the need for real-world experience over academic accolades.

The Role of Industry in Education

As our conversation unfolded, Rob expressed a desire to bridge the gap between education and industry. He believes that businesses must play a more active role in mentoring young people.

"Industry is saying we want this, but schools are saying this is success, which is exam results."

Rob's insights remind us that the future of education lies in fostering curiosity, confidence and collaboration. As we continue to navigate the complexities of learning in the digital age, his work serves as a beacon of hope for a brighter, more innovative future.

For more of Rob's inspiring ideas and strategies on nurturing the next generation of innovators, listen to the full episode.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/robbennett-inspiration/

Kicking The Door Down

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:11

Hi and welcome to Kicking the Door Down. And today I am kicking the door down with the one and only legend, Rob Benny.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

Good afternoon, Ebby.

SPEAKER_04 0:21

Hello, Rob. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 0:24

I'm all right, I'm alright. I'm really, really thrilled to be here. I I'm I honestly it's the most exciting thing I've I've done, particularly for us to be able to have a conversation that other people will hear. Because I think we have some fantastic conversations and other people definitely need to hear them.

SPEAKER_04 0:42

We do, don't we, Rob?

SPEAKER_02 0:43

Yeah, we do.

SPEAKER_04 0:44

We don't. You make me laugh. I normally there's normally a message that pops through, and you seem to have a sick sense of when I need cheering up as well. And I open my phone and I see a message from Rob. It feels like a little Christmas present. And I see your name pop up.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

There we are. Chestnuts racing on an open fire. Not today, it's too hot. It's too hot.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

It's too hot today. And it's just we've just just so everybody's listening. I normally have a five to ten minute call with uh the guests before the show, and we've done 35, 40 minutes. We've covered quite a bit. So we have, we have. But I've been looking forward to speaking to you, Rob, because you know, I want the world to know about what you do because it's really special how you introduced our next generation into the world of STEM. And I'm totally in awe about what you do, Rob, and how you got there and what you did. So please tell the audience all about it.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

Well, as other people, and I've I've listened to some of your fabulous podcasts and they've those brilliant guests, and Karen was the last one from our friends in Oz. And uh just talking about those winding journeys, you know, uh, we don't curate our career, it just happens. Well, it's better if it just happens, and opportunities come up. And I've had just opportunities, you know. The growing up in Cornwall, um, learning for me was school got in the way of learning, really. I I it was an interruption in my day uh between learning and going to school, and um being around where I could be curious and explore and engage and have the freedom to learn in a world where there was no interweb, there was no mobile phones, nobody worried about me, and I went home when I was hungry. And I talk to kids like and I explained that to them as part of my story, and I say, Well, what do you think, year nine, or what do you think, year ten? And they go, Oh, that sounds so cool. And unfortunately, Pandora's box has been open, and they don't have that experience, that same level of freedom, and they can't have that, and it's not their fault, but I absolutely try and get them to catch some of that passion and enthusiasm and curiosity for learning that I've cultivated and fed most of my life, and um work for me now isn't really work, but I had to do a lot of hard work to get there, and you'll understand that. So, doing different things sometimes, uh whether that was working in a band and leaving school and having two CSEs, because I'm that old, it's before G CSEs, and that was art and music, it's not, you know, maths or science, even though I love science, but it wasn't anything to do with that. It was the fact that I wasn't very good at learning temporary facts, so I was a failure at school. And you would think, you know, 40 odd years later it would be different, and it ain't different. It's still the same, it's still the same system. If you're really good at learning temporary facts, you're really good at being compliant, you're successful, or even talented and gifted is another phrase that you hear. And yet, if you're not good at those things, you're seen as failing, you're seen as stupid. And yet, I have conversations with young people and say, I can tell you so many people that you've heard of that left school with no qualifications and have gone on to change all our lives, and yet they don't really frame it that way. And I talk to kids about work and what kind of things an employer really looks for, and the skills that employers need, the character that people are looking for when they employ you, because you've done stuff, and then I have a child say I'm doing a career's day, year 11, and they'll put their hand up and go, I ain't got time to do the things you'll say, like be in a youth organization or do charity or voluntary work or be in a school club. And I go, So why can't you? Why can't you do that? Are you like chilling with your mates or chatting on the phone or whatever or listening to music? And they go, No, I'm a carer for my mother. And I meet a lot of those, and they don't realize that they are employable and even more employable than many of the young people they sat next to in the classroom because they're demonstrating all those skills that an employer would look for. And framing things differently is trying to give kids opportunity to see that there is another way and there is a future. And I'd see now, sadly, in the last probably five or six years, the level of confidence, genuine confidence, and ability to really be curious is becoming less and less. And those who I see who have immense ability and demonstrate immense ability in the workshops that I run are the ones with the least amount of confidence. And and yet they're the ones that will always win. And the ones that always win, and I've done loads, and I've done primaries, secondary, home educator groups. Uh it doesn't matter. By a country mile, female teams win engineering challenges. Always. I mean, rarely boys, and if it's if it's if it's male teams that win, they're they're they're that like, oh, they've got they've got special educational needs. Like, well, that's a nonsense phrase anyway. You mean they just see things differently. So with the girls, I'm finding this year particularly, Debbie, that I'm having conversations with them that say the only thing that you lack, and I look them straight in the eye, the only thing that you lack is confidence. And because I've kind of fostered that honesty, and I wear my heart my sleeve when I go out and I do these workshops and I talk about myself, then they believe me. Because the only reason I'm in the room is because I believe in them. So the kind of experiences that I've had of being bullied at school and also bullied in particular workplaces as well, I have to be honest, and not really feeling that confident in some of those situations to the point where I was so stressed, so stressed, that I I had a nervous breakdown and lost my job, which at the time was horrendous, but in actual fact opened up the opportunity for the best thing that could have happened to me, but I couldn't see it at the time. And um there'll be those who you know and I know that might be really, really struggling, really, really struggling in a job that they feel that's the only thing they can do, it's the only thing they can see, the only thing they know, and yet it's the worst place for them, but they can't see another way, and therefore they can't break through. And often the opportunity happens because of you know, some kind of disaster. And then for me, that then over the last 15 years or so has opened up tremendous opportunities, and and now sort of I'm I've decided that the best person I can be is me. And again, it's another conversation with children, and you know, I would say children, anyone between zero and sixteen is technically a child. Um is you know, the believing yourself and learning to believe in yourself and reflect on what skills you need to develop and what you're good at will mean that you have a unique selling point because you're you and nobody else can be you. Whereas most the influence that they're under from a depression. Why not be is saying to them you're not good enough, you're a failure, you're not tall enough, you're not short enough, you're not wide enough, you're not thin enough, you're too ugly. That's all that will do, and it will just erode your confidence. That's all it will do. So, you know, put it away in a drawer, see what you're good at, and then actually look at the kind of things that really would let you shine in your skills that you can bring. And I have fabulous conversations with three-year-olds because they haven't had the curiosity beaten out.

SPEAKER_04 9:33

Do you think that's where you know you mentioned earlier about the confidence? Is that does that come when the curiosity is also beaten out, not beaten physically, but Yeah. You integrated out of them.

SPEAKER_02 9:47

Yeah. Because they're not seeing that curiosity is a benefit.

SPEAKER_03 9:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:53

And and the problem is we live in a society where grown-ups are intellectually curious. We accept what people tell us as being true. And we don't question it. Whereas I'll question everything. I like for example, a fantastic example of that would be the sense of um electric vehicles. So electric vehicles are sold to everybody as the the the wonderful cure to you know carbon emissions and um it greenhouse gases, so we'll all drive electric cars. And you you don't have to think for like three seconds to go, not everyone can afford an electric car anyway. Oh, hang on a minute, it's heavier. It's it's also causing pollution. It's tire degradation is quicker, brake degradation is quicker. If you have an impact or a collision with an electric vehicle, it's horrendous. A friend of mine's a crash detective, but people don't talk about that. And there are other solutions that everybody would benefit and the whole planet would benefit from, but we won't do that for political reasons. So the confidence comes from the curiosity. Because if you're really curious, then you're really going to go down the rabbit holes and we're going to find out the truth. And in finding out the truth builds a foundation that you've then actually got some authority to actually have a conversation about something and go, I actually know this, as opposed to here's the exam question, I've put it into Chat GBT, it's come out with an answer, which by the way is wrong.

SPEAKER_04 11:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

Because it's telling you what you want to hear. You don't know what the sources are, you don't know where the information has come from. And by the way, do you not think your teacher's done the same thing so they know whether you're plagiarizing? It doesn't make any sense. But so there's no confidence, and therefore they stop asking questions because they feel they'll get the wrong answer and they'll fail. And they don't see failure as the way we learn. And I will actively force failure in a workshop to say, there you go, now you learn it. If I did a workshop where everything that we were doing was easy and you knew what to do, you wouldn't learn anything. You need to be able to learn to fail and then learn what you do with that failure to then build success. And then I point around the room and go, look around the room, millions of hours of failure. And resilience. Otherwise, nothing in this room would exist. It's just training things differently.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

Yeah, I was just thinking, because when you and I went through school, I wonder if there is a distinct difference then between then and now and maybe over the different decades as well, where you know, we we would because we didn't have everything at our fingertips, we had to we had to be more curious, we had to we had to fail to learn, yeah, basically. In everything we did. Even even if we you know when you went home, you were cooking, you were doing something else. Yeah, we went through probably the same era as being latchkey kids at some stage, so you went home, you you defended for yourself as well. Um so we had to learn, but actually now there is a different, there is a different uh instant gratification that kids have because of social media, the internet. Yes, we've now got AI, and there does seem to be a fear of failure, as if failure is a really personal thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

Yeah. Because we don't see it now. I love the stuff the way NASA is visualizing and uh filming the Artemis 2 Artemis program. I've said Artemis 2, but it's the Artemis program. So, for example, um in April, they wheel out the SLS system, which is the rocket system they're gonna uh put four fantastic um astronauts on, all over 40 by the way, which I was thrilled about. Um, and um they're they're showing everything in real time and they're videoing it, and they go, oh, hang on a minute, we've got a leak. And then there's like news. It's like, oh, they've got to leave, they can't launch. No, no, we've got a launch window, we take that, we fix it, we come back, and we try again. Because that's the engineering process. So if you don't see the process, you see failure as a bad thing, as opposed to going, hang on a minute, nobody gets anywhere without failing. If we don't learn to fail, we're not learning how to learn.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

So if we can see represented on social media or whatever media, failure or the learning process, then we begin to understand that that is how things work. Whereas the reality is we go to a shop and buy it, or we see a quick fix online of a thing, or a YouTube video that someone who's done whatever they've done to a thing and they've got all the kit to do it. I don't have all the kit to do it. My ain't never going to be like that, or I'm never gonna be like them, because of course I want to be like them. And you go, whoa, why do you want to be like them? What's so brilliant about a social media influencer? Well, I often say two kids, we do not need more social media influencers, we need more machinists, we need more fabricators, we need more engineers, we need more designers. We have serious problems to solve, and it ain't socializing on YouTube or on TikTok, come out with a better cat video. What I need is someone to deal with the environmental issues, true sustainability, engineering solutions for problems that will impact those kids in the Congo who are mining the cobalt with their bare hands to pay for the bits that go into your electric vehicle and you don't see them, so it's out of sight, out of mind, and how wonderful am I because aren't I agree? Do you see what I mean?

unknown 15:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:53

You've got to take it as far as it goes, and when you do, it starts to uh unravel, the whole thing unravels.

SPEAKER_04 15:59

But I think actually because you're you're using these examples to our younger generation as well, you're actually educating them because they're not stupid.

SPEAKER_03 16:10

No.

SPEAKER_04 16:11

They're not stupid at all. They just need the world opening up to them, and so you you're talking to them like people rather than just sort of drip feeding information to them that is only relevant to a certain exam time in their life.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 16:26

Yeah. And I think critical yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Critical thinking, because what I will do is create an environment for learning, give them a problem, give them some stuff, and if you need help, come and ask me.

SPEAKER_03 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

I'm not going to tell you any answers, even if you do come and ask me. I will simply come over to you and go, okay, well, tell me what happened. And I've just asked them different questions.

SPEAKER_03 16:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

Because I know they know the answer, they're just not confident. They can't think of pathways to find a solution because they're taught there's only one. There's only one right answer. But there isn't. And in the real world, you ain't got that kit. You've got to find another way to find a solution. Because you've learned how to learn, you know how to. If that doesn't work, I'm going to go down this road. If that doesn't work, I'm going to go down this road. And you're going to collaborate and work with other people, which is another thing that I see. Definitely, definitely, definitely, definitely see. And this year, again, it's like ping. So the two things, one is female teams, the only thing they lack is confidence. That's and the other one is natural inclination of female teams is collaboration.

SPEAKER_03 17:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Natural inclination of male teams is competition. That's my observation. Nothing more, it's not a scientific study. It's simply my observation of doing something like 85 activity days in schools every year. It's what I see.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

I can see that in the workplace as well. Over over many, many years of coaching teams, sales teams, customer service teams within the environment that I've been in.

SPEAKER_02 18:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:13

Snap.

SPEAKER_02 18:14

Yeah. And always like, oh, hang on a minute. Who are they then? Um, they're just kids who're just a bit older. Why could they change their behavior? Unless you're instilling those positive messages and reinforce those messages at a very early age, they'll just revert to time. You can't you can't greenwash things, you can't make it look inclusive. It is either inclusive or it isn't. And I've you know very clear about what inclusion is. Because inclusion, whether it's male, female, whatever the color of your skin is, whatever your um your impairment is, physical or or invisible, the the issue is is not kit, it's not fancy kit, it's not a ramp or a poster or a colored handle, it's an attitude. You make the space inclusive by your attitude, and you either have that or you don't. And you have to think beyond yourself, and you have to do more listening than you do talking, and that that is completely different. Um, kids aren't taught that way. They're they're taught in a way of um, right, learn this fact, and then that's there's the answer. That's the answer. You don't have to think. We're not teaching you how to think. So often if young people decide to go to university, which I think is a bad idea, by the way, unless you're maybe the top, you know, 10%, maybe 10-15% of kids, yes, it going to university is a good idea. But there are very, very few per professions now where that is the best route. I would say apprenticeship is by far the best route. Um, and I would include teachers in that, by the way, as well. And I I pretty much guarantee no teachers are gonna watch or listen to this podcast because they're not on LinkedIn, they're not on social networking, because they're in the education world. An education world has only educators in it. Um, and um so they're not gonna hear it. But I would say the best route is leave school, go and do a proper job, banned from teaching until you've done three years in a real job minimum, and then go into teaching because you've got nothing to talk about. All you're gonna do is perpetuate the model which is not delivering what the UK or globally what we need, which is curious problem solvers, to come up with better solutions, working collaboratively to do so. You know, you you think of those uh leaders, I mean political leaders, but who are female, their style is completely different. Completely different. You know, think about uh New Zealand during COVID, supreme leadership.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Yeah. Yeah. Didn't she go shouldn't she have a baby during COVID as well? Correct. Primary sick, yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

For about three months she didn't tell anybody she was pregnant, even though she was suffering from morning sickness.

SPEAKER_04 21:18

Yeah, just cracked on.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Just got on with it. But it is that how do we do things differently?

SPEAKER_02 21:27

We have to start young. But equally, we've got to do something with the facilitators of learning, whether that's a teacher or a parent, if they're home educators, because they like the confidence as well, and they'll perpetuate the problem if we don't do something about both. Same with if we're gonna try and encourage you more young people through the apprenticeship route, um, we've got to get the parents in the room because parents are the biggest influencer kids. And they're their armour spy, you know. Oh no, I'm gonna do what my friends do. Yeah, well some of you will, but most of you are totally influenced by your parents. In terms of your options and choices.

SPEAKER_04 22:09

And you're right there about um not going to I agree. Not everybody should go to university. And I think the apprenticeship schemes we need more of them. But you're absolutely correct. It's how we facilitate them and how we how we how how we attract people into them but also then how we train people that choose those apprenticeships as well.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

Because there is there is or in my opinion there does seem to be a lack of skills of those that can educate those that go through apprenticeships as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah absolutely because I cannot make an assumption because someone in a business is running apprenticeship schemes that they have appropriate people who will appropriately facilitate that apprenticeship.

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Because if if they're if they're a bigoted misogynist and they're running an apprenticeship, oh guess how we're going to train up that young young lad.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

Precisely they're not ready in the workforce for them at all.

SPEAKER_02 23:13

No. So it's a whole different thing. And one of the things that I would love to do nobody's asking me yet but what I would love to do is I want to be able to do that that kind of level of training in industry that they're they're using appropriate language that they're appropriately mentoring and supporting and coaching and facilitating learning in those environments because industry is saying we want this schools are saying this is success which is exam results. But right here right now I bet most businesses out there have no idea what letter or number on a GCSE grade means I wouldn't know anymore. No, because they change it all the time.

SPEAKER_04 23:58

They've changed yeah I have no idea people don't I think is it numbers now?

SPEAKER_02 24:02

Or I don't know what the numbers mean so again no idea they're a separate world they're not actually feeding pipeline into employers. So employers don't know you know don't know what that means anyway so why am I going to employ you? Kids are seeing successes getting those exam results they don't focus on any of the other important things and in actual fact it's why we call transferable skills foundational skills competences in schools they call it soft skills. To me that is the worst possible explanation of what is the only thing that will last your lifetime is your transferable skills your competencies it's not your exam results. I I tell them you know and teacher can be in the room I'll say look some of the stuff you're learning today is going to be out of date in five years.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:00

But if you work on your skills and you're working on your resilience your communication your teamwork your goal focused if you're on your own and uh problem solving skills they're going to last your lifetime we're always going to need those.

SPEAKER_04 25:17

Yeah it's and and again that touches on the confidence level doesn't it as well because if you're working on those that builds your confidence anyway.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

Of course it will yeah and then it'll go and again it's the conversation of all right well you're not very good at that so what are you going to do to develop those things?

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:38

What do you need to do? You you need just need to put yourself in those opportunities. And I always say to young people whatever setting they're in is when someone says do you want to do this or do you want to go on that trip or do you want to take part in this always say yes even if you don't know whether you're going to like it.

SPEAKER_03 25:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:55

The worst scenario is you'll know you don't like it but whatever you do don't say you don't like it if you've never done it.

SPEAKER_03 26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

And then I use the example of Zaki home educator nine years old set up his own charity because he lost a friend of his at seven years old from a genetic condition and he wanted to raise awareness about it and run funds for the charity and last year received um a certificate of merit from the High Sheriff of Nottingham for his charity work.

SPEAKER_04 26:27

He's nine he's nine what a fantastic thing he's done more than I've done.

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah great supporting him great behind him supporting him. But I think the point is kids limit what they can do because the environment limits them. Instead of opening up possibilities and they should be infinite possibilities because your questioning can take you anywhere. Your imagination shouldn't inhibit you it should be fueled so that you can imagine things that I can't imagine and think of things I can't think about because everybody's different. So I say to kids all the time again it's like can I learn from you today? Some of them say no and it's like I can learn from you. You have a different life to me you have a different background to me if you're three I can learn from you. We don't we have this transactional thing about what learning is but learning is learning from each other. We can all learn from each other and the beauty of a three maybe you know three year old four year old is that they are really blue sky tinkers so when NASA ran a competition to look at space exploration in the future the only genuinely uniquely creative ideas were from four year olds and below everyone else had been socially conditioned.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

What what could be done what couldn't be done that's interesting isn't it because that's where you start to see that gender split as well.

SPEAKER_03 27:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:59

That's really interesting. And I do you know I want to pick up on um what you said there about going into the workplace because doing what you're doing for the kids and you work with kids of all ages as you say they're up to is it 16 or beyond?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Could be beyond because um sometimes there's um opportunity of feeding into apprenticeship programs as well. I don't limit what I can do it's simply who asks me to do stuff. I've worked with undergraduates so yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:27

And and going into the workplace you know you've really touched on a a topic there that I wasn't going to touch on but I think it's really important and it's something I'm passionate about about is making sure the workplace is right for new for when you're onboarding somebody. Onboarding somebody is the most important thing regardless.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

You know get that right and that training period for them but a new person straight out of education or apprenticeships it's not that it's more important but it kind of is because that's their first experience of that environment and it's and the thing is it's it doesn't make it doesn't matter where it is it's the the the way psychology works it's the way our brains work. So if someone if I said to you or you said to me Marks and Spencer's is rubbish as an example. The reason you're saying that is because an individual encounter with a sales operator person or whatever it happened to be has colored your view of an entire company. Therefore the entire company is rubbish.

SPEAKER_03 29:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:36

Or thoughtless or careless or didn't care about I need. And we make that judgment all the time. So therefore that first encounter in a place of work that young person is incredibly vulnerable and at that point they are a sponge as long as we've set them up to be curious and and you know be humble enough to go I'm here to learn and what they are taught within the first three months six months twelve months will shape the rest of their career in work not just you as an employer because they'll they'll perceive other employers as being the same as their first one because that was their first work experience. So it's in it's a massive responsibility to do that and to get that investment right.

SPEAKER_04 30:22

Because the other thing of course if you get it wrong and they leave it costs you a fortune let alone the impact on that individual even costs financially the company enormously um it does and reputationally as well absolutely because you know what word of mouth is like um and that will happen as you as you demonstrated there with you know that the Mark Suspencer's other supermarkets are available. Absolutely um but just as an example everyone but it's true that is the prime example of a reputational risk there which could also span to be legislation um litigation apologies not legislation litigation risks because it's it that once that spreads and if something happens and it goes wrong it can snowball actually having employers go through some form of onboarding training for apprenticeships is imperative. I've not heard of anything out there that does that there must be something Lab you reckon there isn't there's gotta be something I would I would say on the basis that I never make assumptions is it isn't there.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

There are things that do it better because they they have much more of a training focus. When I worked for Boots the chemist it was much more of a training focus um they leaded the way on not only customer service training but vocational qualification training and I was involved in that as a store trainer eventually.

SPEAKER_04 31:56

When was that just out of interest?

SPEAKER_02 31:58

So that was in in the um so that would be coming sort of late 80s into late nineties so I was one of the first people to get an MBQ because they had really good reputation back in the day for training even I remember because my training mid-90s I was at BHS in their cash office and brilliant training similar type of stuff it was followed the same yeah do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 32:30

Similar principles.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Yeah so if you think about it then and it was because all of the things that we now think of as being oh look we've got this fantastic device that does stuff means now that we don't do effective training. Yeah all it does now is here's a screen here's a bunch of questions here's a video nobody's interacting with you nobody's engaging with you nobody's observing you you just tick the boxes and that's suitable training. It's never suitable training. I need to observe your skill if I'm doing training and I do health and safety training I still do.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

I was just going to use that as an example.

SPEAKER_02 33:08

Yeah so health and safety training I have to observe your competence I cannot assume that you know because you've seen a video or we've had a conversation and I've demonstrated some information to you and we've talked about that information and you nodded politely when we get onto the shop floor I go okay now lift it.

SPEAKER_04 33:26

Now move it now I'll say one thing induction on-site inductions to get on site where you guys sit there for half an hour watching a video. Yeah as long as you remember it and you do the tick box you're on site.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah but it's like what is suitable training and suitable training has to mean competence. So if that person at the end of the training isn't competent or I haven't assessed their competence they haven't been suitably trained.

SPEAKER_03 33:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Because it doesn't matter you can put a poster on a wall and assume that everybody's read it because they've signed a book or signed an electronic pad that doesn't mean squat how many times do I go into school and I have to scroll through like six pages of health and safety and safeguarding information before I'm allowed to get through the door I mean I know those things but any person would just I just want to sign in nobody's saying can I can I just check your understanding just press a button. So I think some of the things are good but there are definitely some of the things that we think because we can do them more efficiently and quicker they're better and that doesn't necessarily mean better. Yeah at all and so so for example the stuff we do with makeuk where they do a a level two apprenticeship the foundational level in manufacturing is they all need to know how to use tools and I mean hand tools. Before they get onto you know pillar drills or lathes or turning I need to know how to how to use a a hammer how how do you use a file how do you use a vice and I need to observe it and you will have a you know drawings and we talk about what engineering drawings are and you need to make things you need to fabricate them using different materials and I need to see it.

SPEAKER_04 35:20

It can't be some electronic thing is that is that not maybe maybe it I remember going through CDT do is it called CDT when you were at school craft design and technology C D when I was so we had to do all I had to do all that then. I was the only girl that chose that class then design but you had to learn it.

SPEAKER_02 35:49

Yeah you had to yeah you had to learn it all woodwork metal work guess what DT departments are closing because schools don't want to make the investment in equipment and it is the only subject area that demonstrates competence across the curriculum in different subject areas. They're shutting down and they can't get DT teachers. Now a friend of mine Deanne who I work for do workshops for she's training DT teachers at Warwick University and uh Chester University. But a lot of schools are shutting them down because they they've got very short-term goals and it's like well if that's going to cost me money to fix that bit of kit we're gonna shut the department do you know that's really sad that's really sad. Because of course we don't need more engineers we don't need more designers do we that's really sad.

SPEAKER_04 36:43

It is mad then I didn't know that I didn't that's a bit of a shocker actually because I I remember I remember being in class and um you know I'd look up and randomly my dad would turn up um and not just because he'd wander around the school obviously but he'd he used to work for the fire service and the um fixing the engines essentially that's what he did um and the fire service would always donate the spare metals because the school wouldn't pay or couldn't pay whatever the terminology is but would take the donations um so he'd always be bringing bits of metal in as long as it was fire engine red of that but it was it was gratefully received but even back then they think wow okay yeah maybe it was starting then and I just didn't realise.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

Yeah. Whereas Well late 70s early eighties you'd have woodwork departments departments.

SPEAKER_04 37:41

That was right separate classrooms because you had separate separate materials, separate tools do you remember the smell?

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Oh yeah yeah I loved it yeah it had a corridor yeah the tech the um craft corridor it always had different yeah different smells yeah and I love doing um technical drawing when it used to be installs I loved on the desk none of this computer like you'd be drawing proper desks yeah yeah and I and I think that touching feeling that uh kinesthetic way of learning a lot of young people learn that way but they're not given the opportunity to do it so much. So there's it's much more you know visual and auditory yeah watch this PowerPoint and now by the way teachers aren't even allowed to amend those slides on the PowerPoint you just have to deliver it that way. On the hands of time really um but you know a piece of paper a pencil and and I say to kids okay well I literally did a workshop one day and the school remained nameless but I did a workshop one day where I had half of them in the morning and half of them in the afternoon but I wanted to do a whole day experience. So the ones in the morning did one element of the activity and then the other cohort in the afternoon did the other half of the activity and the ones in the morning had to write a standard operate procedure. This was a technical school right so they needed to write a standard operate procedure on a piece of paper what what this does, how it works how it's going to interact with what you're gonna make in the afternoon. So there was communication between the two but they couldn't see each other. So they had to write it down on a piece of paper. My goodness you'd think I'd I'd I'd ask them to to to eat cats I was literally saying to them look you need to use a pencil and you need to write down instructions. Yeah I have to well how are they going to know what to do and they should write down how it works or do some drawings of what what what it does and how it works. They're just so far away from it they're so on the device and are for are losing some of those skills that are just you would think of would just be fundamental skills but they're they're being eroded whereas we're still going to need a pencil I still need people to come up with ideas and because you haven't got a computer doesn't mean you can't come up with an idea. You can't come up with a solution. What? Because you haven't got a laptop I just need your imagination you know and and I often hold up a piece of paper and I go what's this what's this and they go it's paper set. I said no this is potential it's a double sided sheet of potential I need you to get your ideas down on here. I have no idea what you're gonna do I don't really care I simply want you to be creative and use your imagination and come up with a solution. I've now stopped showing examples I don't give instructions because that's what happens all the time is kids are given instructions. Follow these instructions and this is the result. Even in chemistry I mean how is that a science experiment? You use this quantity of this material in this way for this long using this amount of heat or whatever it is and this is the result. Well may as well some schools are doing that.

SPEAKER_04 41:15

Chemistry don't even have like uh I heard bunts and burners were off.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

Oi watch the YouTube video.

SPEAKER_04 41:23

How can you do chemistry in that without actually smelling smelling it yeah smelling it not necessarily you want to put your hand in it but at least looking at it. Yeah I mean how and creating it I mean that was half the fun wasn't it getting the Bunts burner out with the gauze and the little pot of boiling whatever yeah it was brilliant.

SPEAKER_02 41:42

Yeah and that and it's this like I say it's not everywhere but there is these signs. There are these signs. It was a panorama program a couple of weeks ago and looking at a particular Academy trust um that had a very very draconian um authoritarian disciplinary approach just happened to be kind of Devonham Cormel area it's now disbanded but it was literally the kind of the fulfillment of the prophecy if you carry on doing this this is where you'll end up kids couldn't even look out the window they would get a mark against them 30 degree angle literally that 30 degree angle away from the teacher you know when they could lift their pencil when they could put the pencil down complete silence was was this like now this is now this was two weeks ago panorama program where it's all about an academy trust wow I would have done watch that it was terrifying but to me it was the the ultimate of exactly where it's going unless we do something about it. There are absolutely good teachers absolutely and I've met them and they are brilliant they are the people that I remember they are the Rob Tinsons and the Martin Davis when I was at school I will never forget them. Good teachers you never forget them. But it wasn't because of the subject they were teaching it was the way they did things and the way they communicated and the way they engaged with you and they opened up possibilities. And there are still those good people out there and I support them wherever I can but professional teachers who've done nothing other than go to school doesn't fill me with confidence for the next generation it just makes the efficiency of doing the system more and more efficient to the point where the child itself is no longer important.

SPEAKER_04 43:43

I wonder if that's cursed because I'm you know what I'm listening to what you're saying now going back to when I was at school and I remember the career career advice which was pretty rubbish actually and the career advice was um for the exams obviously I didn't listen to it quite clearly But the the exam choice they wanted me to take was either child education, cookery, textiles, and then from a career perspective, they said go into teaching. Why? I mean, that's never going to be me, obviously, but also I never chose any of those subjects quite on quite obviously. But that was literally, you saw the the classrooms were then flooded from sort of post-GTSE.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:32

Girls all went one way, boys went the other.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

Yeah. Based on the going on to higher education, so then you'll get sort of uh, you know, got no exams, right? You'll go to this college, and then the girls will do hair and beauty, and the boys will do bricklaying. So why?

SPEAKER_04 44:53

Why? Yeah, why, why? You because you're right, there has there is a lot going there. And also when you look at social media, the the the the uh the beauty industry is massive, isn't it? It's absolutely massive. Um, and uh so perhaps that's the influence from there.

SPEAKER_02 45:12

It's not helping. No, it isn't. So a lot of the videos and where I can opportunity to get apprentices who are engineers who happen to be female, uh come along. You know, if you can't see it, you can't be it. Um, the Royal Academy of Engineering do a whole platform, web platform with a whole load of case studies and videos that I also use. Um, this is engineering, showcasing um ethnic diversity and gender diversity, young people in all kinds of creative engineering roles, and again, show all of those. And if I'm talking about space, I'm talking about Catherine Cott, who's traveled further into space than any other woman in history, more um spacewalks, more more hours in space, and is the only person that could fix the toilet on the Orion space capsule.

SPEAKER_04 46:06

Do you know, Rob, um and this this it to the point of when we first very, very first started speaking to one another. It was about you being uh a male ally, and actually, I just want to point this out at that point because you you talk about her and you talk about inclusivity and diversity. The reason why you I believe you're a true male ally is because we've got to nearly you know 45 minutes in this call without actually saying it, yet you've demonstrated it all the way through. I think when somebody has to say they are, that's when there's an you know what I mean. It's like honestly I am, you know what I mean? And yeah, and I I learn from you every time we have a conversation, but your honesty and integrity with it is just just shines through. And I I love that because you that's what you're demonstrating to these kids that are coming through, that they can, it doesn't matter what sex they are, it doesn't matter how they represent themselves, just be a good person, and this is what's open to you.

SPEAKER_02 47:16

It's working on important things like character, and we don't talk about character, um, and I see it all the time, and I will I will pick kids out. I might have 60 kids for a day, and then I will pick them out, and I say, you, you, and you, you can come and work for me tomorrow. You've already demonstrated the skills I'm looking for. And I would say it's very, very rare that of of those, I would say it's gonna be 75 to 90 percent going to be female. Yeah, they've lacked that assurance, no one's believed in them in that way, you know, had that conversation. Um, it it really hasn't happened. Um, it it just hasn't been their experience at all. Um, which makes it very sad, but it's it yeah, it's I just value the opportunity of being able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 48:12

Yeah, yeah. And you know, it tails on into then the work environment, which would be the you know the other end that I pick up on, because you know, employers talk about culture a lot these days, um, and that's that's a big thing that everybody wants to work on, is you know, uh corporate culture, core values, etc. etc. Um, and it's just another word for it, but actually, behaviours and attitudes, if they're not correct, they have to be pulled up somewhere. And I do t I do find that to touch on the fact that females are far more collaborative in how they work together, and to touch on what we talked about earlier, but the males can be really competitive. Um, but when you challenge that, the reactions are can be quite aggressive actually, yeah, and defensive, um, and you can and and and almost like they've never been challenged before.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

And it could be that that is the case, but in in truth, bullies are ready challenged.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Because you're not going to challenge a bully because they're gonna push you. And that goes all the way back to school. And it's because of their own insecurity, of course it is. But it's very difficult to change attitudes. You have to walk it, you've got to walk the walk yourself. The problem is, is um if you're a female and you're the one who's the one with the voice trying to change the culture, you still need to have a male ally who also walks the walk so that males can also see, oh, that's what it looks like. Do you know what I mean? Otherwise, it's just you'll be banging on a drum. Whereas what we also need to see is, oh, I get it, I see how it is. I can see someone else walking it out, and it's it is it's instead of it's almost like you don't need to say it, you just need to do it. Because if it's part of who you are, it's just the way you do things, it's just the way you see things. In my mind, I see it as like health and safety is no different, is it? So lots and lots of business, they'll have all kinds of fantastic stuff on their website, policies, and all the rest of it. But you look around and you go, they've got it. They have a health and safety culture, or they don't. They either are adding health and safety on to the list of things they have to do with a big sign going, oh, do I have to? Or it underpins everything they do. And you can see the difference. You don't even need to talk to anybody. You just walk around a site and you know. You've just known. And it's exactly the same with this. You can see it. It is it's as obvious as you know, the nose on your face. You can absolutely see it. Um changing it is really hard.

SPEAKER_04 51:16

But this this is why businesses, um, organisations, corporates, wherever those apprenticeships are going, this is why they need somebody like you to help create that environment for them. Because not every business knows how to do this.

SPEAKER_02 51:31

No. And they don't know where to start because they don't understand the underpinning principles. And and that kind of morality and culture is n you can't impose it. You aren't gonna change somebody because they put a different coat on. It it's got to come from the inside out, and that has to be you're gonna have to keep doing a thing for quite a long time before it changes habits. But if you're not starting with your your new inductees um as they come through the door, you've got no chance because they're just feeding the fire of the existing culture, because they're being told this is how you behave. And they don't even have to be told it's what they observe, it's what they observe by the coffee machine, it's what they observe in the office, it's what they observe on the shop floor, it's what they observe in overhearing conversations on the telephone, or who's in the office and who's not in the office. Everything about it will tell them what the culture is.

SPEAKER_04 52:29

It's like you said about safety. Again, it's the same thing, it underpins it. It's all of our responsibilities to do this. And that's the same thing when you go through safety, isn't it? It's everybody's responsibility.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Yeah, that's right. And it it is the same. It's it and it's the how do you do that? So I I work on a very, very simple premise. So I work on the premise is that everyone's value is intrinsic. It's not governed by what you do. You are valuable, end all. You have breath in your body, you're valuable, and I can learn from you. Whoever you are, I can learn from you. So if those things are, you know, your basic premise, then you are gonna be prejudiced. Because you're even if someone's struggling with things, why are they behaving that way? You've got to think about what's led to that. Because whatever that is, something's happened to get to that point. And unless we deal with the thing that's led to that, then it's gonna happen again.

SPEAKER_04 53:33

And that goes back to being a curious, curious leader, yeah, curious curious engineer, however you want to put it, that goes back to the curious bit.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Yes. And the that that genuine curiosity, and that comes to genuinely looking and genuinely listening.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Um and we don't like to do either because it's like, it's not my job. So I don't want to get involved. It's gonna be too difficult. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 53:59

Yeah. But some people just don't want the extra work, the extra burden, then don't know how to handle it, don't know how to manage it, or simply won't get any reward for it as well. It seems to be that selfish.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah. I mean, it's a thing like so, for example, you almost want to be able to have a culture where you have near miss reporting for those other things, not just how to take these. So a way of someone to report those things without getting their ass kicked, so to speak. So we can pick up on it. And we go, these things are coming up all the time. We need to have a conversation. We need to understand what's going on, why is this happening?

SPEAKER_04 54:40

What's do I think some places are working towards that? Some places are good at doing that, and those should be led as examples for other businesses to follow. Um, and maybe, you know, you know, when some companies do things like the great place to work schemes and wherever they are, then that should be an element that's called out and praised, that part of it as well. Because at the moment it's not. Again, it's turned into uh this is the score that person's got, this is how therefore how much this business is available is is worth.

SPEAKER_03 55:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:15

Rather than that element of it, and you know, the places I've worked at that do focus on it have generally got a good leadership team, good HR, um, good talent team.

SPEAKER_02 55:30

Because it goes back to the recruitment as well, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_03 55:33

Yeah, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_02 55:33

So when we're looking at the role profiles, are we thinking about those things? Are we thinking about what what does that look like? It's not just the professional, because professional is also to do with your conduct and behaviour, not just your output. So what are we doing about that as well? When we're even at the point of promoting roles, how do we define a role? Um, is there some subtlety within the definition that leans towards an age or leads towards a gender? Because age is another thing.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

Yeah. Age is another thing. See, this type of stuff within work is something I could go on and on and on about because it's something it really again, that that really puts me that really gets me on edge when it's not done correctly by leaders in in work.

SPEAKER_03 56:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:30

Um because I find it just lazy management, basically, when it's not done correctly. Because a lot of I've in my experience, and I have to be honest, in my experience, a lot of people shy away from it because it's too hard to do, or it's an uncomfortable conversation that they have to have with a fellow adult. Um so they just don't do it.

SPEAKER_02 56:49

But then what they're not doing, yeah. They're not doing the thinking, what happens next. If we do something about it and we change the culture and we make it an inclusive space and an in genuinely inclusive environment, our productivity goes through the roof. We suddenly have genuine creative thinkers who can bring their whole self to work, all of their creativity, all of their imagination. They're accepted, included, and involved, and we suddenly are out the box thinking on stuff we never imagined, coming up with way better solutions than we would have ever done unless we collaborated with those people on the margins of our business because they're quiet, or because of this or the other. So that's the potential outcome if we do something about it, is nothing but good for the business. The opposite, it it could just cave in on itself, and all the good people will leave. They do, they silently check out or whatever it is, and they'll leave. And they may end up going self-employed, or some other company is gonna benefit from their experience, but it won't be you.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

And that do you know that's it in a nutshell, what happens? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:10

Ultimately. Again, going back to back to the point that you know, if we're gonna invest all this time, money, and emotion into um apprenticeships, then employers need to be ready for them when they come in because you're doing all this work with the younger generation, which Rob, I wish I'd have had. You know, it doesn't sound I think I think I had some good good schooling years with the technology side of stuff, to be fair. I think I'm maybe I was one of the last ones hanging on into it, but yeah, you'd you're you're you're helping them see a bigger picture of what's available to them, but also bigger than that, you're helping them to see that being curious is not the same as failing. And actually, failing is not a bad word. It's to start it's a it's a construct, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 59:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:01

Society has created the word failure to be bad.

SPEAKER_02 59:05

Yeah. Whereas Winston Churchill describes failure as going, well, actually he described success, his definition was going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm.

SPEAKER_04 59:21

Well, some of it up, doesn't it? Yeah. It sums it up. And some of the best places I've been at, part of the progress is based on a culture of failing fast.

SPEAKER_03 59:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:32

Or, you know, I used to call it grazing your knees. Just graze your knees and get yeah, let's let's learn something new, move on. Yeah. It's and that's it. There's no uh ridicule in there. It's just let's just move on and be honest about it. What have you learned? What have you learned? I I much prefer to have conversations about what somebody's learnt after something.

SPEAKER_02 59:55

Yeah. Reflection. What if you left that experience? What would you do differently next time?

unknown 1:00:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

It's the same conversation I have with seven-year-olds. It's no different. Because if you can instill those principles in at seven and they apply that every day, think where they're gonna be at 17.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:12

I've got a question for you, Rob.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:15

Is this how you got your gold blue Peter badge?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:18

My gold blue Peter badge. Yeah, that's concerned.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:20

Just so everyone knows, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

Well, it's yeah, it's uh it's a pin badge from the um Institute of Engineering Design is an honorary fellowship. So um, so I received this madness um because of the work that I do and recognition by a professional institution, you know, kid that they've school with two CSEs. Um because it's not about anything to do with your exam results, it's about what you do and the impact and effect that you can have on others and the influence that you can be on others. And for others to recognize that um is just bulkers to me. It really is. I can't even get my head around people talking about me when I'm not in the room, saying positive things, let alone them coming up with a you know, they have to come up with a reasoned argument as to why they should give me this honorary fellowship, and then they have to judge and they take a vote on it. Which is just bonkers to me.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:26

I talk about you all the time, Mom. I didn't know you felt like that in a lovely way. And I know just to just add the cavity. But yeah, that's that's yeah, well, that's your humility, isn't it? I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:37

Well, I just I just do what I do because I love doing what it what it what I do. And I believe it is the right thing. And I think once you understand what it is you should do, and you believe it's the right thing to do, then just keep doing it. Just someone to stop.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:52

There's gonna hurt I've got this image of these these kids. They'll be going on in their mind thinking, I learnt how to create a rocket that's gonna take me to Mars.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:02

Or wherever it's gonna go. And in their mind, that's what they're thinking. Yet they woke up that morning not realizing that that's what they were gonna learn.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:11

Yeah. How could I do that? And even here in the thing, you know, I'd I might be in the Midlands and I'll say, Look, this is like the end of the day, and I might say, Look, I drove two hours today, and the only reason I'm here is because I believe in you. And for some of you, you've never heard that before. And you can see from the expression of their faces, they never have. No one's told them that they believe in them. And that it's a privilege for me to be able to be in that position, but it's incredibly sad that in society we are not building confidence and encouraging kids to go and change the world. Because they're never gonna do it unless we give them permission. And everything around society blocks the opportunity to do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:59

I I yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:01

I wish I'd have met somebody like you doing that as a kid. So and I to touch on when you mentioned about some of the kids that are caring, and there seems to be more and more kids in that thing at the moment, for them to hear somebody say they've done that because you believe in them, to give them that mental respite for a period of time as well must be huge. And I didn't I didn't think about it. You've made me really consider the fact that they feel like they haven't got time to do all of this extra stuff. Not that it's loads of extra stuff, but they haven't got this time to be curious because they've got those other what are adult responsibilities.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:47

But they're demonstrating transferable foundational.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:51

They are, and they don't realise it, do they?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:54

And and the schools aren't highlighting it to them as seeing it as fantastic employability skills because they've got brilliant evidence for it. Even the fact that they do all of those things and they still manage to get to school.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:08

Yeah. No, they're the biggest problem solvers out there, really, aren't they? With emotional intelligence.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:14

Yes. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:17

I'd employ them immediately.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:20

Ditto.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:21

Yeah. Yeah. Because for me for me, if somebody can demonstrate emotional intelligence, especially in a sales role, which has been my arena for years, or customer services, you're 90% there.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:36

The rest of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:37

I don't know why people don't get this, is people don't buy stuff or services from an organization. They buy it from a person.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:47

100% they buy it from a person.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:49

And companies that switch in everything off by way of customer service are you people, so you can't talk to a person, then everything's gone online, are totally missing the point. The point is people invest in relationships with people, and if you can establish those relationships, you have a customer client.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:09

Yeah. And I'm seeing more people want people investment now.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:14

Customers are seeing more, buyers are seeing more. Um, I'm seeing it more from that because they're missing out on this human interaction where they can ask a human question.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:25

Um, and boundary test.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:29

What the responses are, because they want to find um a solution or a person that they can trust as opposed to it's not just you can you can have the same piece of kit everywhere. Many manufacturers make the same piece of kit these days, but it's the trust that the person wants, and that trust comes with the human interaction.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:51

Unquestionably.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:52

Yeah. Um and that is why those type of people there that you've you've met are I couldn't wait. I would love to meet them. They they would if any of them if any people like that are listening, they're the ones that workforces are after. Do you know what's really interesting though? Um AI is now that I learned recently, AI is filtering out those type of CVs. So those individuals are challenged even further because AI will filter it out if they try to go for jobs.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:27

Yeah. Which is, you know, my algorithm is being fuelled by a system which has all of the prejudices in it.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:36

Yeah. Yeah. Already built into it from years and years and years.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:40

Correct. Why people think it's intelligent, I have no clue, because it isn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:45

It's basically a mirror for what's there.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:47

Yeah. It mirrors society.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:49

It's not going to come up with a beautiful, moral, clean system because the person programming it doesn't have that moral compass. The system isn't suddenly going to invent it. It doesn't do that.

unknown 1:07:01

No.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:02

Therefore, we're going to lose the talent and those genuinely different thinkers, whereas in reality they're the people we need.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:10

Yeah. They are they absolutely are. Because AI will only learn from those that are using it, but if there's only a certain demographic use in it, it's just a vortex of the same information. The very people who you know you want to be putting into it haven't got access to it half the time. Most of the time. Why would they? So, you know, AI is doing a naughty job in filtering out naughty makes it sound too nice. I'm just worried about filtering my own stuff out if I press sensitive content on the podcast. I could swear all day long of how I feel about it, but it's filtering out the wrong people when it comes to recruitment. And we need, whereas people are relying more on recruiters now, which I understand, and I'm, you know, they want to call themselves different things these days, absolutely fine, they're prerogative, but we need them to pick up on this because if employees are too busy to go out and recruit their own, fine, get a recruiter in, but those recruiters need to be not using AI, and they need to be not being lazy on the people that they're looking for, because filtering out these people is a travesty.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:21

Yeah. And it's happening. There's much more benefit in to my mind of running um assessment days.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:29

Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:30

Yeah, set guarantees, have a problem, you're gonna work with a bunch of people you don't know, come up with a solution, and I'm gonna serve you. Do you know I used-real, it's honest.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:40

It is. I used to j shout out for a good company when I was at Vodafone many, many moons ago, they'd do assessment centres for their what was deemed call centres, but they were far more professional than what that name suggests. They were wonderful. The training was brilliant, they had what they called like a university area for about six weeks before you could actually hit the floor, as they called it. But the assessment centres were incredible, and you had to pass a certain level as a team leader to be on them. They've been run by the HR people in there. It was just brilliantly done. Very, very uh professionally done, sensitively done, and it meant you got a whole selection of individuals through those doors, different skill sets, um, all based on the company values as well.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:35

So you were your appraisal system started at recruitment.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:40

And you knew what it was.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:42

It knew what it was, and I can I can honestly say that I mean so I was 21 when I went through that. So a few years ago now. I've never been through a business that's done it as well as they did.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:56

I can honestly say that from a recruitment perspective. Very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:02

I echo you, uh, but maybe I could comment we could come and do some we could do some assessment centres together.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

Love it too. Give me the role and we'll find the right people.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:12

Let's do it. So I think I think at one hour and ten Rap plus plus our chit-chat beforehand about Dalfader and Goonies, the Blues Brothers.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:24

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:25

I know that everyone's listening has missed out on that. So if anybody wants us to do a session, like maybe we should do a car, we should drive somewhere and just record our chat in the car rob.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

As long as we can do it in a DeLorean.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:38

As long as you don't go to 88 miles an hour.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:41

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:41

Because I don't know where I'm gonna end up.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:43

I know.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:45

Well, just saying that as long as we end up somewhere together, I think we'll have a right laugh anyway.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:49

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'll certainly um certainly tackle the challenge, whatever it happens to be.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:56

Together, whatever we do, we'll do it together. We got this.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:59

Oh, but Rob, what I'm gonna say to him, thank you so much for this evening's conversation. And for anybody listening, I'll be putting Rob's details in the bio uh that will appear on the podcast um as well. Um, but please reach out to Rob because he's an award winner, not just because he's got his Blue Peter badge, which I'm obviously from childhood so impressed with. Um, but you are an award winner at what you do. Um, and you are to me as well, because it's fantastic what you're doing for the new generation coming in.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:35

Thank you, Debbie. And thank you for the podcast and and the work that you do as well. Kicking the door down is it's crucial, essential, and sadly still very relevant.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:47

We wish it wasn't, don't we?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:49

I wish it were I wish I wasn't relevant. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

Yeah, I know. We we want to make ourselves redundant, but unfortunately we can't yet.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:57

No, we can't do it yet. That's why we'll do it together. We'll tackle these things together in Adolorean.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:02

Yeah, good claw.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:05

Right. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:07

Thanks, Stephen.