Grandpa Is Him
A general microcast about everything and nothing in everyday life. True short stories, family fun, some true crime, anything that I find interesting. In short, it is about everyday life, as lived by every day people, presented a fun and entertaining way.
Grandpa Is Him
How To Transform Your BBQ Skills for Delicious Results
In this engaging and mouth-watering episode, we explore the fascinating world of smoking and grilling meats, guided by the expertise of our guest, Michael Waller. Listeners will appreciate the distinctions between grilling and barbecuing, illuminating how each method contributes to the deliciousness of our favorite meats. The conversation kicks off with cherished family memories of Thanksgiving, grounding our culinary pursuits in the love of food shared among generations.
Throughout the episode, we shed light on the Maillard reaction, a pivotal process behind the golden crust found on cooked meats that enhances flavor and aroma. Michael shares his hands-on experience and essential tips, helping listeners utilize tools that enhance their barbecue game, potentially transforming novice cooks into confident pitmasters.
We dive deep into the importance of temperature control, discussing common challenges faced during cooking and offering practical solutions to ensure juiciness in every bite. This episode is not only informative but also emphasizes the emotional connections we forge through cooking, as we encourage listeners to bring their families together over warm, hearty meals.
If you’re ready to take your grilling skills to the next level while embracing the cozy traditions of family gatherings, subscribe, share, and leave us a review! Join the conversation and share your cherished cooking stories as we continue our journey through the delicious landscape of barbecue culture.
Welcome to Grandpa Is Him. Several years ago we decided to spend Thanksgiving with my parents, so we picked up some of the grandkids and we drove down to their place in central Utah. It was a beautiful, clear fall day in central Utah. It was a beautiful, clear fall day. We were enjoying the changing leaves, the scenery, even the cool air, and we were enjoying the smell of the burning leaves as we drove through some of these small towns. We drove through one small town where one of the homeowners was burning his leaves and my grandson in the back said Mmm, this smells good. It smells like Sunday dinner at grandpa's house. He learned to equate that smoky smell with good tasting meat and Sunday dinner. So I want to share with you some tips and experiences on smoking meats.
Lynn Dimick:This week we're going to be talking about smoking, grilling and barbecuing and what some of the differences are. One of the things that happens when we cook food is something called the Maillard effect or the Maillard reaction, and what this is. It's a chemical reaction that occurs when proteins and sugars are heated. The result is brownness and the development of complex flavors and aromas. This is what makes food taste good. This happens on every kind of food that has sugars or proteins, for example, bread. The crust is bread and what happens is that when these things are heated, it creates a different flavor that is very tasty. So actually, if you want good bread, eat the crust. The same thing goes with meat. If you want good tasting meat, eat the outside. That's where the real flavors come from, but that's just the precursor to what we're going to talk about today.
Lynn Dimick:I am happy to introduce to you Michael Waller, my son-in-law, who is an avid smoker. He knows what he's talking about, and we're going to talk about smoking and grilling today. I hope you enjoy. And I's talking about, and we're going to talk about smoking and grilling today. I hope you enjoy, and I know that by the time we're done, my mouth is going to be watering. All right, mike, thanks for joining us. First of all, let's start off by talking about what got you interested in barbecuing.
Mike Waller:Well, you're my father-in-law, so you got a feeling to be honest For Sunday dinners and having steaks and everything else like that. I just decided that I felt like I could increase the taste profile from just the meat, to add a seasoning and doing things a little bit differently.
Lynn Dimick:Well, that's not a bad way to start it. I'm dealing with the handicap, or the challenge of having some people that don't like the extra flavor and they think that the meat's just fine the way it is. Yeah, all right now, briefly, what in your mind is the difference between grilling and barbecuing and smoking?
Mike Waller:so I kind of feel like grilling and barbecuing is the same, just grilling is with propane, barbecue probably it's going to be more of the you know, the charcoal briquette. And then smoking is anything to do with wood. Okay, what is your preference? I prefer smoking. I tend to team up my smoker with my grill. I'll do something low and slow and then I'll finish it off on the grill as a reverse sear.
Lynn Dimick:When it comes to the steaks or chicken, Are there times when it works better to go hot and fast if you will like a grill or a barbecue versus smoking. What kind of meats work better with the hot and fast?
Mike Waller:Hot and fast. I prefer burgers that way, maybe chicken breasts over chicken thighs, sometimes a thinner steak, something that doesn't have as as much meat to it like a london broil. It's really a top. Sirloin is really good on a grill. But when you get to the the low and slow I've found you know anything to do with pork, that low and slow is a way to go. Or a big cut of meat, say a tri-tip or a brisket. Those are the main ones that I tend to go with for low and slow, but I do use my poker a lot for chicken thighs. I'll set it about 350 and let it cook with the smoke what's the advantage of low and slow versus hot and fast?
Lynn Dimick:I remember one time I went to the grocery store and I picked up a nice tri-tip and the guy behind the counter brought it out and said here you go. He says that'll be great low and slow. And I said, uh-uh, this is hot and fast and it turned out really good. But I found that at one point low and slow does come out better. What's the difference in how the meat cooks?
Mike Waller:I feel like low and slow. It allows the juices, the internal juices of the meat, to soak in Hot and fast. It's just making it brown.
Lynn Dimick:You know you're right, because what we do is we try and smoke the meat at somewhere between 225 and 250, maybe 275. Now, for those of you science majors or non-science majors out there, water boils at 212 degrees and so what we're doing is we're heating the meat to just above boiling so that the water is not leaving the meat as fast, so it tends to be more tender and a little bit slower and a little bit more flavorful, because we're not cooking or boiling out all the flavor. We've talked a little bit about the differences of the grilling and the barbecuing, and what do you think are some of the essential tools that are needed for barbecuing? Let's say, well, we've got a couple of friends in common that are in their 18s to 20 year old. They're going to be moving out sometime in the future. What would you recommend that they start out their barbecuing adventures? With what equipment? So you're saying barbecuing? Well, okay, let's go with smoking.
Mike Waller:Whatever you think. You know, I don't suggest that someone starts out with a smoker. I feel like the best thing to start out with is just a propane grill For someone you know younger age moving out on their own. You can get one of those little tabletop barbecues. You know grills propane grills that run off of the little Coleman propane tank. I think that that's the best way to start. Then from there you probably advance to a charcoal grill, one of those little black dome ones like the little shuttles yeah, the little kettles and then from there you you start to notice the difference in taste and then you want to explore some things. Or, if you live in Texas I lived there for a while you don't do anything without a smoker. I mean, you get some great they call it barbecue there, but you get some great smoked meats that just intrigue you and you want to just do it better.
Lynn Dimick:Now the only. I don't want to argue it, but I think I think we need to let them know that if they get a small charcoal, one like a hibachi, where it's a rectangle, they can put the coals on one side for the hot side and then still leave the other side free for the cooler zone. What do you?
Mike Waller:think I've seen that done. I've never had great success because of the fact that the circulation of that heat doesn't happen throughout the entire grill. On those, if you do one side hot and one side on cold, with no coals or anything there, you tend to get a sear on just half of that meat and you're always having to constantly move it and it fluctuates on the. You know the doneness.
Lynn Dimick:What other tools do you think they need, besides just a grill of some sort?
Mike Waller:I sound that a good you know. Good meat thermometer is key. Once I learned to not grill or smoke by look and started probing the meat, trying to check temperature across multiple zones of the meat, that's when I started realizing that I was making much better food.
Lynn Dimick:You know that is such a critical point that I don't think people understand when they start out is that you're not cooking for the outside color. You're cooking for the inside temperature. Why the temperature? Because it doesn't matter what color it is. It has to be up to a certain point for it to be safe and for it to be done. Do different meats cook or do they require to get to a different temperature?
Mike Waller:Well, I mean, yeah, so beef has the tendency that you could cook it at a rare temperature. Cook it at a rare temperature, you know, 115 to 130, and it's perfectly safe to eat when chicken poultry you want to cook that at least to 165. I don't even when I'm smoking chicken on the smoker or grilling it, I don't pull it off until it's at least 175, 180, just to get that extra little bit of heat into the meat and have whatever fats in there start to render.
Lynn Dimick:and this way, it's so critical to be careful with your cooking temperature because it may burn before you can get up to that internal temperature. The outside skin can be completely blackened and you're still dealing with something that's pink and runny yeah, I mean we, we've had that problem before, right, like we've had some.
Mike Waller:We've had some chicken early on that may have been a little bit frozen in the middle and we're trying to cook it on the grill and put stuff on it.
Lynn Dimick:Well, and you and you bring up an interesting point. Because chicken is cooked once it is 165 to 170 internal, but because they're selling smaller and younger chickens and they're growing faster, they may be 165 degrees, but still peak in the middle even though it's 165.
Mike Waller:That's a great topic right there that I want to touch on the mass produced chicken in the world right now. If you know what goes into getting those chickens to size, you know what goes into to getting those chickens to size that you probably wouldn't want to ingest. That I've been kind of leaning toward trying to find a more organic approach.
Lynn Dimick:one of the other concerns I have is that anytime you buy any meat from the, from the grocery store, particularly poultry, it's going to be so injected with crap, I mean 30% water and everything else and all these other things that may make it look good, but it kind of fights the process of smoking.
Mike Waller:It really does, because you know you get some of that. You know the chicken breast or a whole chicken from the grocery store. It has so much water in it that as you're smoking it you're fighting the internal temperatures the whole time. And then once it actually gets to temp you know 165, 175, it's already dried out in the middle Then it becomes, you know, not as enjoyable.
Lynn Dimick:And nothing like eating charcoal that tastes worse than what you started cooking with. Now, the other problem with the first time griller is keeping the temperature under control, because I don't know about you, but I have never yet seen a thermometer on the outside of a barbecue or a grill that I would trust. Yeah, so how do you? How do you control the temperature? How do you know what's right?
Mike Waller:or do you bother with it, or you know, on a on a smoker, it's one thing. Right, I have a one of the higher end smokers in a rec tech and it has constant monitoring monitoring through a wi-fi signal to my phone. But when I first got it I didn't trust it, so I I went in there and I broke it and I and I actually found the hot spot in my smoker first off right, there's always going to be a hot spot in it, and so I found that hot spot by trying to not put anything on there unless I wanted to cook faster.
Lynn Dimick:You know you bring up a good point and that is the idea of hot spots. Even a smoker has hot spots because normally what they do is they've got the pellets on one side, they seed them through into a hot burning area because you've got to burn the fuel and anything over that pot, where it's burning the pellets or whatever it is, is going to be hotter. So you do have hot and cold spots on a grill, no matter what kind it is.
Lynn Dimick:Yeah, I mean on your Camp Chef you probably have that, that hot spot over the pot. I do a little bit. It seems to be more towards the back left just a little bit not quite centered.
Mike Waller:Okay, mine, mine's on the front right corner of my grill gets the hottest, but mine also has a an airflow dam through it that pushes the heat all the way through and that's first major turn in it.
Lynn Dimick:We've talked a little bit about the meat. Now let's start talking about getting the right flavoring. Is there a particular fuel or flavor of fuel that you prefer, and how does that affect the taste of the?
Mike Waller:meat. So it depends on what you're making. So if I'm making pork I tend to go with something that has like a fruit wood, so apple or cherry, something like that. I've had some success with adding. There's charcoal pellets out there, adding a little bit of charcoal pellets and apple wood while smoking a pork butt. It adds an extra layer of flavor. But for steak, for beef or for chicken, I really don't see a huge difference in the type of pellet that I use. But I don't know, I guess I don't pay enough attention to that. My rubs and seasoning that I use, you know, overpowers that Okay.
Lynn Dimick:You talked about rubs, and that's our next topic of conversation here. Do you have a preferred recipe for a rub that you like?
Mike Waller:so my my favorite rub. I don't make any of my rubs homemade, I buy produced ones. Um, my favorite family rub that we have here is called casey's butt rub and I put that stuff on everything. It's made for pork butt but we put it on chicken, we put it on beef. Everything that we put that on on everything. It's made for pork butt but we've put it on chicken, we've put it on beef, everything that we put that on it comes out absolutely amazing. My kids ask me all the time to make butt chicken, chicken breast on my grill coated with some of the Casey's butt rub.
Lynn Dimick:When you put a rub on what are the ingredients you look for in particular, Do you just go for that one can.
Mike Waller:No, I have quite a few different spices that I run.
Lynn Dimick:The main thing that I'm looking for is no MSG, don't go there with me because that stuff is nasty, and there's people that deny that it does anything and they're wrong.
Mike Waller:I get horrible migraines from it. I just thing in the wrong. I get horrible migraines from it.
Lynn Dimick:I just I cannot have it in anything that I have. Okay, you talked about spices and herbs a little bit there. Normally, for poultry, you're going to want to look for something that's got parsley, sage, thyme, something that's a little bit more forward with that. For beef, you're going to be looking at something more along the salt and pepper line. For the pork, you tend to look for the fruit type flavors, not just in the wood but in the rubs. Now, salt when you're cooking with salt, it does two different things. Number one is when you pre-salt meat, it opens up the pores and draws the water out. The reason for drawing the water to the surface is that it moves it around a little bit better. It makes the meat more tender. And then there's also the concept of using salt as a final flavor, and you don't necessarily taste as much salt if it's pre-salted than if you put it on afterwards. So I just want to get that out of the way. Do you do a lot of pre-salting before you cook? I find that really unusual, even me.
Mike Waller:Very, yeah, that's where we vary. I do not, I do not free salt anything. What I do is I take that rub that I'm going to be using, um, and, to be honest, a lot of times when I'm smoking something, I'm using a couple different rubs that I have and they vary depending on, you know, the sage and herb stuff. I prefer more like a cayenne, chili pepper, salt and pepper kind of mix, almost a Texas type rub, yeah, with a little bit of sweet, right, so some sugar. But what I'll do is I'll put a light layer of that on and I'll pat it into the meat and I'll let it sit up for about 20 minutes and then I'll that on and I'll pat it into the meat and I'll let it sit up for about 20 minutes and then I'll go in and I'll coat it heavy and then, if I have the time, then I'll let that sit, hopefully overnight, and then put it on the smoker. That's the best that I've found.
Lynn Dimick:What's the number one ingredient in most rubs Sugar, and then salt or salt. So, in a way, you are going to end up pre-salting, and that's what I wanted to bring on. Next is the problem that people like me are going to have is, if you pre-salt the meat and you get a nice coating of salt on it and then you throw a rub on it which is mostly salt, you've over-salted the meat, yep. So I think that your way might be a better way to go. I have to do some more experimenting with that.
Mike Waller:There is a difference, right. Like I've had your steaks where you've pre-salted your steaks tend to come out a little juicier than mine. Like you can cook a perfect medium rare steak on your grill or on your stoker and it's so juicy and so delicious where when I cook mine I'm hard to get it to that medium rare. I cook it to more of a medium and that's where I can get the juiciness. So I'm wondering if salt has anything to do with locking in that those juices.
Lynn Dimick:It might, but I find that I think the difference is is that I don't I don't do as good of a hard sear on the at the end as you do, because I'm I'm afraid that if I'm going to do a good hard sear and I use a blow torch for my heart for my final sear, I literally have a cooking torch and I'll just run it right over the meat until it blackens up the outside. The problem is is that if there's any rub left, it burns the rub. Yeah, so I lose a lot of the flavor from the rub. If I do it that way, I'm not going to lie.
Mike Waller:One of the best steaks I've ever had you made. You've got it down to science. I think that I just have more. I have more of the Texas style. How would you?
Lynn Dimick:describe the Texas style.
Mike Waller:Low slow salt pepper and over-seasoned.
Lynn Dimick:They love to use their oak with the wood it's. The other thing that's interesting too about cooking is that a lot of people will use like charcoal to start it and get the base fire going. So they set the temperature that way and then they'll put two or three pieces of wood on there, whether they're oak or cherry or something else, to get the smoke you know, that's something that I do want to try.
Mike Waller:Like, I want to get one of those little kettle grills and get that. You know that nice 225 from the charcoal and just throw a couple chips on there. See what that turns out like. Okay, I do put the charcoal pellet in sometimes when I'm cooking stuff and I just don't feel like I get all that charcoal flavor, which I love.
Lynn Dimick:Yeah, I love that too. It takes me back to my childhood. That's the problem they have with the barbecue competitions is that what they're cooking for is for a one-bite judgment. A judge takes one bite and it's not the kind of thing that they serve at their neighborhood barbecue. They don't serve it to their family that way. It's a very different thing. So I don't like the barbecue competitions because people think that that's the best barbecue, but it's not. It's the best single bite.
Mike Waller:My ward has an annual barbecue competition and I've had some people over and made them the smoked tri-tip with the reverse sear and they love it. One of the guys his name is Greg. He's like my dad. I've adopted him as a family. He actually took my method of the slow and slow and then reverse sear and he perfected it and turned it in and he he won unanimously with it that that was my method.
Lynn Dimick:I didn't have time well, and that's the beauty of this is that everybody can share and everybody can do their own thing. Now what's the best way to apply the rub? You already talked about putting it on for 20 minutes and then trying to do it overnight. How thick do you put it on? Because I see some of these recipes where they say use a quarter of a cup. Well, crap, if I put a quarter cup on it, it's going to have a quarter inch all the way around it of nothing but spices.
Mike Waller:So I think again, that's where we vary, right? Like you're following a recipe, I'm following touch and feel. If I can feel that meat and I can feel that it has a good amount of seasoning on it, I just leave it.
Lynn Dimick:What does that feel like? Is it? Is it, is it muddy, or is it dry like sand?
Mike Waller:it's almost like I tend to go with, like a 180 grit sandpaper feel okay, right, it has some texture to it. You know that there's something there, but it's not super rough, super coarse. But on a it's a different, different, it's a different beast.
Lynn Dimick:There I go real heavy on a brisket because it sweats it all out okay, I've only done the one brisket and it turned out great, but you do a good job on your briskets. In fact, there's more than one time in the last month that I've wanted a bucky's brisket sandwich. What's that? You and me bowl. We had a girl that moved here moved from california to texas about a month ago, and we told her listen, no matter what you do, I don't care if you die on the road. Go to a bucky's first and get a, get a brisket sandwich. And she says what's bucky's? I said I can't even describe it, but just get one. And she got one. She texted back says oh my gosh, now I know why?
Mike Waller:yeah, I mean that. That brings us to another topic homemade versus store-bought seasoning.
Lynn Dimick:Right, I tend to buy most of my seasonings every time I go to bucky's because they have such well and you've got a good store just up the street from you, but it seems like their hours are so bad I think they close at five most times, so I I can never make it there.
Mike Waller:Yeah, the thing that I like about Barbecue Pit Stop here in Lehigh Utah they let you taste everything, so you can taste all of the seasonings and what you want. So, depending on what I'm making, I'll go in there and I'll taste 20 different seasonings to find out what I want.
Lynn Dimick:This may be where we start the world on fire. Let's talk about pork ribs Right now. There's two major thought processes here. One is that you cook them partway and then you wrap them with foil and finish braising them, and then there's heathens like you that say no foil.
Mike Waller:Explain why I do it both ways. I mean, I've tried both ways. Right now I am on the. I'm not wrapping it in foil and I will wrap it in butcher paper. I don't like the foil because I feel like all of the juices and water that's coming out of it takes away the bark of the meat. It absolutely does, because you're sopping it up. Yeah, so me personally, if I could get it down to a scion, I would probably just cook it straight straight through, Okay.
Lynn Dimick:How long does it normally?
Mike Waller:take to do a rack If I don't take it off and wrap it about four hours. Okay.
Lynn Dimick:The common method that I see these days is called 3-2-1. You cook it for three hours at 225, and you baste it about every half hour with apple sauce or something I'm sorry, apple juice Then you wrap it for two hours and then you finish it off for an hour. Now, during the time it's wrapped, you would normally well. What I do is I put the margarine on top of the ribs inside the foil to add some of the fat back in, and then I'll put a little bit of brown sugar and maybe a little bit of honey, because that gives it just that little bit sweeter flavor. But, as you said, it does kind of take the bark away but it makes for a sweeter rib. And then for the last hour you unwrap them and let it go with some barbecue sauce and you smoke that until it's gooey. Yeah, I find that the three hours before the wrap makes it cook too fast.
Mike Waller:Yeah, when I do that method I do a 2-2-1 method. So two hours, you know, unwrapped, and then I'll wrap it. I do not baste it though at all. When I start my rack, I will put little chunks, you know little flats of butter on top of it and I just let it go for the two hours. I don't touch it, I don't open the lid, I don't do anything, I just let it cook. Then I'll pull it off, I'll put it in into foil or butcher paper and I'll pour just a little bit of juice in there. You know some apple juice with a little bit of apple cider vinegar, and that's it. I'll add. Sometimes I add a little bit of seasoning into the bottom, but I don't do the sugar do you, I think.
Lynn Dimick:I think your ribs are more traditional in mind in that you leave it, so there's a little bit of a bite. You got to bite and pull a little bit more to get the meat off the bone. In our household here they prefer to have the meat falling off the bone, so that's why it might go a little bit longer. I think that's the big difference. Yeah, the other thing is is that there's three different kinds of pork ribs. There's the St Louis, the full rack and then the baby back, and they cook at different times, different speeds, because they're different. They're not necessarily different cuts of meat, but they're trimmed differently. Do you have a preference for that? Which ones?
Mike Waller:um, I I strictly do baby back ribs. I don't, I don't do the st louis or the the full racks of ribs. Uh, one of the things that I do want to try is I want to do some dino beef ribs at some point alan king does those, he does those and, um, I was, they were good, but they were, I don't know.
Lynn Dimick:In my mind they were overdone a little bit because there was no. There was no pink left in them at all, and so it's kind of like eating, it's so like a hairy brisket. This would have felt like a furry.
Mike Waller:I mean, it's a science, right. So we had in texas. We had this little barbecue spot in katie, texas it's called jd's barbecue and they sold the dino ritz. It would be first come, first serve and they would sell out within two hours. That's.
Lynn Dimick:That's the place on the other side of the airport. We went to that that night.
Mike Waller:No, oh, not that one okay no, every time we tried to go there, when you were there, they were already sold out I just remember the night we went up for rids.
Lynn Dimick:You wanted to be there at about 2 30 in the afternoon for dinner. You talked about cooking pork a little while ago and and one of the things that people like to do is cook the pork butt or the pork shoulder, which is basically the same thing. The name pork butt does not talk about where it comes from. It comes from where it fit within the process of processing pork. What is it about the pork butt or pork shoulder that you like? What do you use it for?
Mike Waller:So I mainly use it just for pulled pork sandwiches or pulled pork. I did pulled pork nachos that a couple of weeks ago. That ended up just amazing. But I tend to go for the boston butt over shoulder. I don't want to mess with the bone.
Lynn Dimick:All right, shoulder hat the butt doesn't really. You don't like that bone, see I that's. That's how most people tell that it's done is if they can pull that thing out without tearing the meat apart.
Mike Waller:Oh man, my meat probe tells me that it's done all right, so let's talk about the meat probe.
Lynn Dimick:The first time you cooked the shoulder or boston butt or whatever it was, did you run into something called the stall?
Mike Waller:explain what it is oh, you're cooking at such a low temperature that as the meat starts to heat up internally, it gets to a point within within that meat that it's trying to break through that, that temperature range, so it could start rendering fat. And sometimes what happens is you hit that and you don't have enough heat currently to get it to push past that. And it's called the stall for a reason because it can. It can stay there for, you know, 45 minutes, or it could stay there for three and a half hours all right now, let me.
Lynn Dimick:Let me interrupt you right there. And while people are saying three and a half hours and it doesn't look like it's doing anything different, it's got to drive you nuts. How long does it normally take to cook a pork like that?
Mike Waller:so I have it down to a science. I cook it in about anywhere from 20 to 22 hours. I usually will throw it on about eight o'clock at night and I'll babysit it through the night and then I can pull it off right around four, four, five o'clock, depending on. You know I've had some that that cooked a little faster. Again, it's all about the temperature, not the time.
Lynn Dimick:Now, when it's going through the stall, what do you do to try and overcome the stall? Do you just wait it out, or do you?
Mike Waller:wrap. I found that what I like to do is I just leave it alone. I have a wireless, you know, meat thermometer that is inside the meat that I can look at it and I just go out and I check on my pellets to make sure that I have enough fuel going into it. I do not change it, I do not take it off, I don't wrap it, I don't do any of that.
Lynn Dimick:So you just touched upon one of the key things about a smoker, a pellet smoker, is that the temperature is consistent and as long as you've got fuel, it's really easy to maintain, to maintain that temperature, whereas you're cooking with charcoal or stick burner or something else. You have to monitor that and you have to add fuel which is going to raise the temperature and do goofy things. Now, during that stall process and when it finishes, what it's trying to do is break down some of the connective tissue in the pork and that that connective tissue becomes almost like a gelatin and when it starts to melt down, it's it's magic. That's the only way to describe it. It's magic because you get this sweet. I don't want the slippery super flavor, rich content on the meat, for lack of a better description, and that's what you're looking for especially on a pork butt.
Mike Waller:I know some people that pull it off at 200, some people that pull it off at 205, some people that pull it off at 198 and wrap it and throw it in a cooler and let it go through its process. I pull it at 230 degrees and I will pull it and I will throw it into foil and I will put it in a cooler for a good hour, letting it just sweat out all the juices and then soak all the juices back up and then I'll shred it.
Lynn Dimick:You know you bring up a good point when you talk about letting it sit there and resting, because what happens, or what I found, is that if I take a piece of meat off the grill and if I cut it immediately, the first thing that happens is all this nice pink juice just gushes out and I end up with dry meat. By resting it, you allow that juice to be recirculated within the meat to let it adjust. The meat seems to plump up a little bit, and the other thing that happens is that there's some carryover cooking that goes on so that you might pull it at 203, but it might go up to 205 on its own. But you've got it right where you want it. I do know of people that have kept those. I will take those and I will wrap them in foil, put a towel around it, put it in an ice chest and I've had those sit there and stay, stay at about 200 degrees for a good four hours and they taste just as good after that four hours as they did coming off, if not better.
Mike Waller:I mean, I used to make it for a job for a bunch of my employees and I would smoke it all night and throw it in a cooler. I'd be able to pull it off. You know, first thing in the morning, 6 am, I just throw it in a cooler and then I wouldn't serve it until 12. And it would be still just completely juicy, flavorful and still warm.
Lynn Dimick:It wasn't hot, but it was warm. Now, do you worry about the marking of the meat, whether it's prime or choice or anything else Do you consider?
Mike Waller:that? No, I really don't. I think that it's just marketing.
Lynn Dimick:I have to agree, I think there's a lot of marketing in it, but I also find that I'm just going to get something cheaper. And one of the purposes of barbecue, particularly smoking, is you're trying to break the meat down. Now I do need to cook like Wagyu, different than you do things like tri-tip. What do you say? Wagyu? Okay, you know what, I'll have the pocketbook for Wagyu. You okay, you know what? I have the pocketbook for wagon.
Lynn Dimick:I remember one time I decided I wanted to send our friend you know who I'm talking about, I think who lives, who used to live in san antonio, that passed away last march and um, I thought, well, I'm gonna do something nice for him, because he's always done some very kind of things for our family.
Lynn Dimick:So I went online to, I want to say, snake River Farms and I sent him two Wagyu filet mignons and these were two four-ounce medallions and I think the price was $150. Yeah, and they're very, very good, but there's no meal in the world worth $300 a pound. No, not at all. I do remember seeing a show called Texasxas law where they follow around the rangers on whatnot the game wardens and they were investigating a case where somebody was shooting across the property line and the neighbor's herd was behind them and the the ranger didn't seem to be too excited. He says, well, if they kill a, they owe you a couple thousand bucks. And the guy says, no, these are Wagyu steer. It's going to cost them $25,000 if it kills one of those, which is just insane.
Mike Waller:I don't understand what Wagyu is versus a regular. It just doesn't make sense to me.
Lynn Dimick:The Wagyu has got a lot more small marbling throughout so it's and it's a little bit different flavor, so it's almost like butter. So it melts at a lower temperature and it's got that sweetness growing into it that you don't normally get from the rest of the cows. All right, unusual meats. Have you ever smoked anything that was?
Mike Waller:different. I did an elk roast one time. I tried to smoke that and it it did not cook like I thought it would. What did you think it would do? I thought that it would turn out more like a beef roast, Like if you've ever smoked a beef roast, you know they come out and you know they're really good. It's actually a cheap cut of meat that you can serve, basically shaved beef off of Right. But I cooked it and I cooked it to the 165 internal temperature and I pulled it off and it was it. It was like beef jerky. It was horrible because elk doesn't have fat to it. Same thing with deer. Yep, yeah, that was. The main thing that I didn't recognize at that time was that I needed the fat to replenish the juices within the meat.
Lynn Dimick:Yeah, for venison or something. I don't think I'd take it over 130, and even then I'd be really careful I might just take it to 125 or so and then let it slow cook on its own. Some game eats are tough.
Mike Waller:I tried steak and it still was awful because it just doesn't have anything. I tried doing steak wrapped in bacon and bacon burnt and you know I just I haven't had a lot of luck in the wild game side of cooking your smoking meat did you have a?
Lynn Dimick:did you have a drip pan underneath it with some water in it? Yeah oh, I would have thought that would have helped, because that would help keep it a little bit moister. All right, here's a question for you. Have you ever tried smoking cheeses?
Mike Waller:it's on my list to do. I've had smoked cheese, but right now it's. I probably need to do it here soon if I'm going to do it, because it's still cold out here, but I just.
Lynn Dimick:It makes me nervous, to be honest I tried it here once and the problem is is that out in the sun, my barbecue, just from the metal cover and the sun will top 100 degrees, and for smoked cheese you want to try and keep it below 80 degrees or 70, so you can put it into an ice bath.
Mike Waller:I've heard about the ice bath. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that. Just what I found is I can put if I want something with a smoked cheese flavor, I'll just take that cheese and put it in a dish and smoke it and have it melt.
Lynn Dimick:The other thing that you will absolutely hate is if you smoke cheese and you try and eat it that day.
Mike Waller:you're going to eat it it tastes like you're licking a charcoal briquette. You can't. You definitely cannot with cheese. I had co-worker that got a brand new trigger and wanted to do it. He did a really good job, but he brought it in the next day and it was pungent. It was horrible. But then he brought in the same some from the same batch, like two weeks later and it was amazing. Now, have you tried?
Lynn Dimick:No, we don't do seafood in this house, that's not seafood, that's fresh water, we don't do fish, salmon, smoked salmon with a maple syrup and orange marinade is amazing.
Lynn Dimick:Now, have you tried smoking bacon? Yeah, okay, I've done that a couple of times and you get a pork belly from the store which is inexpensive Okay, I've done that a couple of times and you get a pork belly from the store which is inexpensive. You have to trim off that real thick fat cap you know that gooey like skin fat, yeah. And then you marinate it for I want to say three or four days with some curing salt, and then you put it on and smoke it and that is some of the best bacon you'll ever have, because you can control the flavor a little bit more. Mine tends to have less of a salt flavor than it does off the shelf, so it's a little bit milder that way. And then you've got the the maple syrup running through it, so it's pretty good and there's a lot of people that'll do, like pepper and some of the other flavors, yeah what's your favorite meat to barbecue or smoke?
Mike Waller:my favorite thing to cook is probably a whole chicken. It just, it turns out amazing. You just want to say that word spatchcock. I cut the backbone out of it and then lay it face down and I cook it about 275 and just let it go low and slow and it comes out. It's just, it's to die for.
Lynn Dimick:I've got a small turkey in the freezer that we bought last Thanksgiving. I think it's about a 12 pounder. That's sometime maybe for Easter. I'm going to spatchcock it and smoke it. For those of you who are curious, just look up spatchcocking. It's not at all what it sounds like. You literally are removing the backbone and breaking the bird in half. That's probably the best way to describe it. The advantage you have there is that you are cooking the meat and it comes out more evenly because you've got the breast, which has a different temperature than the thighs. Thighs and the legs have to go a little bit hotter.
Mike Waller:And you don't have that dreaded, you know cavity in the middle that trap seat and then doesn't allow parts of it to cook and parts of it to cook seat and then doesn't allow parts of it to cook and parts of it to cook. You know, I I've found on, at least on my whole chickens I actually try to remove the ribs, oh really, yeah, I found that it actually cooks a lot better and that my breasts become like come out a lot juicier I have to try that now.
Lynn Dimick:the one thing I hate more than almost more than anything else, is this idea of these beer can chickens. Are you familiar with that?
Mike Waller:Well, all right, tell me about it, and I'll tell you why. I think it's dumb, it's freaking amazing. It's so good.
Lynn Dimick:All right, so tell everybody what it is, and why you like it.
Mike Waller:It's called canned chicken, but I haven't had it without beer. You take your chicken and you put it on this tube. Basically, that tube is filled with a bunch of liquid. What happens is, as it cooks, all of that liquid evaporates and it goes through the meat. The meat comes out extremely juicy, extremely flavorful, whatever that you put in there for the liquid, it just it really comes through on the meat.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, here's. Here's. The thing I don't like about that is is what temperature does it boil? 212 degrees.
Mike Waller:Yeah, but you generally cook those at like 350. All right?
Lynn Dimick:See, I've never heard of that. I've always heard of it doing low and slow. And if you do it low and slow, you never get it to boil and steam the meat.
Mike Waller:No, every time I've had it it's cooked at like 300 or 350. So a higher temperature rank.
Lynn Dimick:Do you recommend that over a spatchcock bird or just different? It's just different.
Mike Waller:I like the spatchcock bird because I can really get in there and put my rub all over the chicken, basically.
Lynn Dimick:I know your family loves that because for the Thanksgiving and other poultry you guys like to put the rub and the stuffing underneath the skin and all kinds of stuff. I think you buy your Thanksgiving stuffing by the pound. So where the rest of us are looking for these small little four-ounce cans, you guys are saying let's go to Costco and let's double up.
Mike Waller:I give that. I give that to my wife, you know she she found a really good recipe for a rub for a turkey and I came into it into the marriage hating turkey, and she found it and now I love turkey Now now, one of the things about turkey and it's the same thing with poultry is the secret to making it juicy is to leave the skin on, because the skin has got so much fat in it.
Lynn Dimick:when it heats up, it melts the fat into the meat.
Mike Waller:But there's a difference there, right? Like just taking a turkey out of the wrapping and washing it and stuffing it and putting, you know, butter on the skin. That doesn't do it. You have to pull that skin away from the meat, you have to separate it in order to get that those juices to stay trapped in there.
Lynn Dimick:In fact in competition cooking. When they're doing the barbecue they'll do. They'll do thighs because the dark meat's got a lot of flavor and they literally will take the skin off of the thigh. They will scrape all the fat off because they don't want to try and deal with the inconsistencies there and put the skin back on, and sometimes they'll use a toothpick to anchor it. And it does make for some skin that you can bite through and the meat's good. But again, they're cooking for one bite, not for the meal. All right, on our way out. Real quick question If you could barbecue for anyone in history, who would it be and what would you make? And I think I know the answer to this. But go ahead, Cook for my dad. I knew it, I knew it.
Mike Waller:I got you. What would you cook him? Probably make him a reverse sear tri-tip.
Lynn Dimick:There's something about a tri-tip that is just beyond amazing. It's easy to do, it's quick, the results are always wonderful and if you ever get in a situation the very rare situation where you got leftover, get some sourdough bread, put some mayonnaise on one slice, chop the meat up small, put a little bit of horseradish on the other side and it's heaven.
Mike Waller:Oh, no, no, no, no.
Lynn Dimick:No, absolutely not, and you can see why we get along so well with the smoking. All right, what's your favorite side dish to pair with barbecue? And do not tell me mac and cheese with panko on it.
Mike Waller:No, you can't put panko on mac and cheese. It dries it out. But in our family lately I've been smoking veggies. I take broccoli, bell peppers, asparagus, zucchini and I will douse it in some olive oil and then lightly season it. There's a Cosmos seasoning, it's like garlic butter seasoning and I'll put that on the veggies and I will smoke the crap out of those things and they get gobbled in my house.
Lynn Dimick:See, the thing I don't like about that is the same thing I don't like about the cheese, and that's that. The initial bite is just all smoke. I've tried to make salsa and I have never liked the flavor of it.
Mike Waller:My veggies don't come out with that strong smoke flavor. They they come out just like they're almost like perfectly cooked. They're still there's a little bit of char on them, but they're still soft and they just have really good flavor to them. Another perfect side dish is do baked potatoes on the smoker.
Lynn Dimick:I've done that before and I'd love them better that way. Don't wrap them. Don't bother to wrap them. You want them dry.
Mike Waller:You don't wrap them. What you do is you poke them whole, brush them with olive oil, and then you put salt and pepper over the top of them, and then you just let them smoke, and then you pull them off, you let them rest and they're they're amazing there's.
Lynn Dimick:Yeah, everyone here except me likes to wrap them in foil and to me all that does is steam them and you don't really get the.
Mike Waller:The potato cells don't really burst and give out their flavor I mean I I don't lie, I'm not going to lie I do like a wrapped baked potato in the oven. I don't like the super dry skin. But on the smoker you can't wrap it because you have to poke a bunch of holes in it so you get that smoke flavor to come through.
Lynn Dimick:And if you don't wrap it, the potato will explode. It does that in the oven because there's nowhere for that expanding steam to get out. It becomes like popcorn. All right, is there one last hint, trick or piece of barbecue wisdom that you want to share with our?
Mike Waller:listener, don't be afraid to try it. Just go for it. Whatever you do, you're gonna mess something up, but you're gonna end up perfecting it to the way that you want it, and it's really worth the journey.
Lynn Dimick:Thank you for your wisdom. I found that to be absolutely true, and it's something that, no matter when you start, you may never get to the point where you think it's perfect. There's always something that can be better, but everybody's telling you how great it is.
Mike Waller:Yeah, this guy that does this podcast here got a smoker because someone else had a smoker.
Lynn Dimick:Yep podcast here got a smoker because someone else had a smoker. Yep, you had one. First I had the barbecues and I was doing the hot and fast and I thought, well, I'll try this low and slow and see what happens, and I'm sure glad I did. All right, mike, I'll let you get back at it and we'll talk to you again soon, and I expect to have some barbecue next time I come up there. One thing you may have found out about grillers and smokemas masters is there's a little bit of a competition going on. It's unwritten, it's silent, it's friendly, but everybody thinks that they have the best recipe, the best technique, the best secrets and the best methods. And so, to settle some of these arguments, I will often ask the grandkids who makes the best meat or barbecue. Let me share with you some of the feedback that I received from some of my grandchildren. We'll start off with Blake, and I asked him what do you like about my barbecue? Tell me about it, do you like it?
Mike Waller:What about it?
Lynn Dimick:Do you like it?
Mike Waller:Yeah.
Lynn Dimick:Is it the best you've ever had?
Mike Waller:Yeah.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, what do you like about it?
Mike Waller:Everything.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, what's your favorite? Kind Steak? All right. How about the meat your dad cooks? 10 out of 10.
Mike Waller:It's good as yours.
Lynn Dimick:Ooh, bad question. His dad has home field advantage. Okay, that's fair. All right, I just wanted to get some. What?
Mike Waller:Especially his burgers.
Lynn Dimick:Oh, he makes good burgers. Next up, we had Luke. Luke is one of Mike's sons, so I knew these answers would be a little interesting. And again, mike has home field advantage, which becomes obvious with how long it takes Luke to answer the first question. Hey Luke, what are you doing bud?
Mike Waller:Yelling at my little brother to stop singing.
Lynn Dimick:All right. So who makes a better barbecue, your dad or me?
Mike Waller:I don't know, I just found.
Lynn Dimick:On what.
Mike Waller:On what you're making.
Lynn Dimick:Alright, who makes a better, who makes better chicken? I knew what the answer was going to be and I figured I'd give Mike an easy one, because my chicken game Needs to step a couple of steps.
Mike Waller:Um, I'd say my dad.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, who makes better steak?
Mike Waller:Um, um, I'd say my dad. Okay, who makes better steak? Um, there's A1 sauce than you.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, how about hamburgers?
Mike Waller:Um my dad.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, and what is it you like about your dad's cooking?
Mike Waller:He seasons it.
Lynn Dimick:What kind of seasoning do you like? And there you have it. Just as Mike was emphasizing the importance of a good rub, his son was noticing that it does change and improve the flavor. All right, right now I've got Caleb Smith here with me and we're going to ask him Caleb, what's your favorite dinner?
Mike Waller:Burgers.
Lynn Dimick:You like burgers. What burgers do you like?
Mike Waller:The cheese and meat ones.
Lynn Dimick:Your dad's or mine?
Mike Waller:Both.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, and what's your favorite Sunday dinner?
Mike Waller:I don't know.
Lynn Dimick:Oh, I thought it was steak and everything else.
Mike Waller:Yeah, that's it.
Lynn Dimick:Yeah, you like my steak.
Mike Waller:Yeah.
Lynn Dimick:Okay, thank you On more than one occasion. After Sunday dinner, which usually consists of tri-tip and vegetables and some homemade rolls, we will have dessert. After dessert, the grandkids will usually ask for more meat because they enjoy it and it tastes so good. Thanks everyone, we'll talk at you soon. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Grandpa Is Him. We hope you enjoyed our discussion and stories and maybe even found some inspiration for your own family adventures. Now we want to hear from you. What questions do you have or what topics would you like us to explore in future episodes? What stories can you share? To share your ideas, simply visit our website at grandpaishimcom and fill out the submission form. You can also reach out to us on email at grandpaishimcom, at gmailcom. We're always looking for your thoughts and experiences, so don't be shy. Join the conversation and help us create the content that matters to you and your family. Until next time, keep laughing, keep sharing and keep those ideas coming.
