#BringOutdoorEdBackIn with David

In this episode, I talk with David, Programme Coordinator for the Bachelor of Sport and Exercise Science at Wintec, to talk about the power and importance of Outdoor Education in Aotearoa. David shares his journey from high school teacher to tertiary educator and why outdoor education has been a life-changing force for both himself and countless students. 

We explore how outdoor ed builds resilience, leadership, problem-solving skills, teamwork, and mental wellbeing, while also providing authentic ways to connect with te ao Māori and Aotearoa’s environment. David highlights the life lessons you simply can’t teach within four walls and shares inspiring stories of students whose lives have been transformed through the subject. 

With current government proposals threatening to downgrade outdoor education in schools, this conversation also shines a light on what’s at stake, why we need to protect this pathway, and how teachers, parents, and communities can take action. 

If you care about the future of Outdoor education in Schools in New Zealand and believe in the value of learning beyond the classroom, this episode is a must-listen. 

👉 Visit eonz.org.nz
To learn how you can support the movement to protect outdoor education. #BringOutdoorEdBackIn

Hosted by Debbie Ross
Find us on Instagram & Facebook: @nurturingeducators

For more information, guest recommendations, and sponsorship opportunities 
or to chat, please email: nurturingeducators@gmail.com or visit  www.nurturingeducators.co.nz

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Debbie: Welcome, Dave. Would you like to tell us a little bit about your background? 

Dave: Yeah. Kia ora Debbie.  So I, yeah, my background, I started my journey into outdoor education in South Auckland, Rosehill College. I had amazing outdoor ed teachers there, James and Merrick and Glen, and that made me think, okay, well, what can I do with this subject? And I went to study at AUT and did my diploma in outdoor and then my bachelor of sport and then my graduate dip in teaching. And much to the surprise of my year 11 teachers, I became a high school teacher and was able to just, yeah, try and transfer some of the passion that I've developed with outdoors onto others. 

 And I've taught at schools for 12 years and different, different things, PE departments and outdoor ed and health and everything. And then five years ago transitioned into higher education. And now I'm a tertiary educator and I'm the programme coordinator at Wintec for the bachelor of sport and exercise science. 

Debbie: Awesome. That's really cool. So why are you so passionate about outdoor ed? 

Dave: Yeah, I think for me, outdoor education it's obviously labelled as a subject, but it's just more than that. It's a part of my identity really. It's just changed so many lives, including mine and just changed the trajectories of where so many are going. And it's just, it wasn't for me, it was an escape and the connection at the same time, if I could just escape the busyness of my head, but then connect to where I was and I, yeah, I, I mean, I did struggle with some of the more traditional subjects at school, just more with the regimented aspect of it. 

 And I feel like outdoor education was an environment for me to just be me. And it showed my skillset in a way that I had not been able to really demonstrate before. It kind of made me in a weird, funny way. 

 Like it made me feel smart for the first time. 

 Debbie: So what's a life lesson that you have learned through outdoor education that you can't get taught in the classroom?

Dave: I think outdoor education, it's just, obviously there's that front end of the curriculum and the context of learning that gets you out into the outdoors. And I guess it's the justification of being out there, but it's just that back end of the curriculum that is really adds those extra powerful layers to the subject where students are learning about just becoming a whole person, you know, their mind, their body, their interpersonal skills. It's just problem solving, just learning simple strategies to cope with the environments that they're in. 

 Yeah. And yeah, and I mean, Aotearoa, we're famous around the world. We're shaped by our ability to just, you know, take swings at things and just conquer huge, ridiculous achievements and for such a small nation. 

 And a lot of that stems from our connections to pushing ourselves in the environment. So yeah, I mean, outdoor ed is actually, even though a lot of people don't think so, it's a rigorous academic discipline, you know, like there's a lot of really strong fundamental academic roots to its core and it's just surrounded by these extra layers of how you implement, I guess, what is deemed as academic. 

 So yeah, the life lessons that are really difficult to teach within four walls, I guess, or in a classroom sense, although as yeah, adapting to different environments, planning and preparing, like, you know, like they actually have to figure out the weather, what's that, what implications that's going to be. They need to, if someone's having a hard day at how to pull them up, how to just get to camp, you don't, you want to click your fingers and have food there, but that's just not how life works. You know, you've got to put an extra layer on and start cooking and then that meal will taste better than anything you've ever been given. 

Debbie: I tell you that. Yeah. It really does build resilience and leadership in students, doesn't it? 

Dave: Oh, definitely. It's that grit, you know, and you see that grip development and yeah, the kind of the only way to really foster that in the students is getting them environments where they don't have a choice to just, maybe just going to have to dig deep and leadership. I think leadership is so many different forms and types of leadership. And I think outdoor education is one of those special subjects that actually promotes all forms of leadership. 

It may not be leading from the front being the loudest person, but it could just be taking someone's pot out of their pack to make it lighter. It could just be giving someone a rub on the shoulder if they're not doing so well. It could just be putting someone's tent up for them. 

It could be just doing the background on logistics to make sure your group's got what it needs, you know, like, yeah. And I think it's, it's just, it promotes all of that and, and values everything that people can potentially bring to the group. Yeah. 

Debbie: What about things like teamwork and problem solving? Do you see a lot of that in outdoor ed? 

Dave: I definitely see a lot of that. I mean, there's different ways to approach teaching outdoor education, obviously. I think more recently people have shifted a little bit to the more connection to place and Ako style learning, where you're removing yourself as the facilitator where you're just the vehicle to promote students being in charge of their own environment. 

And that really sees them have to like, you know, take ownership of their learning and step up and problem solve and, and figure out how they're going to do things. So yeah, any good problem in the outdoors needs to be solved by a team. So, so, you know, it's just, it's just really providing those opportunities. 

Debbie: Yeah. It's amazing. So those opportunities, for example, engaging students who, as you said before, are not particularly smart or academic in class, how does it kind of engage that group? Yeah. 

Dave: I mean, those, those students that just are hands on learners that just really thrive in experiential environments, it just gives them an opportunity to showcase what they bring to the table, you know? It's, it's just, yeah. Like I was one of those, those students I was pretty hypo, but chatty and fast and just kind of a bit hoa really, but it's just because I just needed to like express some energy first or just calm myself. Cause I just wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't know how to learn when I was 16. 

Like I hadn't learned to learn yet, you know? And it takes some people longer than others to figure out their way to learn. But as soon as I was in the outdoors and I see this in many students I've had, you know, I've just, yeah. Everything just seemed to make sense and I was able to, to not just like, yeah. 

I mean, I just felt calm in class, even though class had no walls. And that was the best place for me. But yeah, I mean, outdoor education, outdoor activity, whether it be, yeah. 

PE out on the field, whether it just be sitting amongst the trees, having your lunch, walking home via a more scenic route. Just there's, there's quite a lot of studies that show that two hours of exposure to the outdoors and nature a day dramatically improve performance in all subjects. Amazing. 

Debbie: It also brings in the whole mental health and wellbeing, doesn't it? Being outdoors and connecting with nature has such an important part and just being well mentally and feeling good about yourself. 

Dave: Definitely. I mean, there's again, so many countless studies that show that nature connection reduces stress and anxiety and depression. And we're seeing increasing cases of that in our whānau ākonga. 

Yeah. It builds, it builds just that, not just resilience, but it builds a recognition and importance of, of I guess like that wider, that connection of yourself and your spirit and who you are to, to an environment just helps you just remain in control of the things that may trigger you. Yeah. 

There was actually a UK research showed that, yeah, again, just backing up, there's those two hours of outdoor learning didn't just boost performance, but it just improved wellbeing and satisfaction at school. And yeah. So I think that's, that's just as important, you know, like if someone's, if someone's wellbeing or they're feeling satisfied and they're feeling okay, they're going to perform better and they just, they just interrelate. 

Debbie: And how do you think it connects young people to Aotearoa's environment and our culture? 

Dave: Yeah, obviously a little bit biassed about outdoor ed, but it's, for me, it's like the one subject that really has a more organic platform to, to embed Mātauranga Māori and te ao Māori into, into learning because so many of the values of outdoor education and te ao Māori synergise so well, they just interrelate. So it's kind of hard not to incorporate, I'm sure in outdoor ed, even if you tried, you know, it's just, you're just surrounded by those connections. 

I just recently did my dissertation on how Pākehā can authentically embed Mātauranga Māori and te ao Māori into their practise. And most of the research came back to the fact that we're so lucky to have a comfortable platform where, where kāiako can just start that journey. 

Debbie: Why do you think the government wants to remove it as a subject in our schools? 

Dave: Well, I think I've got, I've got to at least put their hat on right now because I'm trying to get my head around it, to be honest. But I think what the, the message that they're promoting is that they don't see it as an academic pathway. They, they see it as a vocational stream. 

So they're, they're pushing for fewer and narrower, traditional academic pathways, and just focus more on them and how they link to industry and, and higher education. They believe that NCEA is too flexible and want a more kind of succinct and measurable subjects. Yeah. 

But again, like I just think that's a little bit ignorant to the fact that we were talking before about how outdoor education indirectly would, would boost performance in those other areas. Exactly. So yeah. 

I think, yeah. The consultations that they've had with the people that they've approached have had much more of an agenda and the sub, the more traditional subjects. So that's the voice that they're getting to make their decisions with. 

Whereas I think if the voice was wider. And really make sure we're promoting it. Yeah. 

Debbie: So what do you think schools will lose if outdoor ed is downgraded?

 Dave: Yeah well schools,  if it's not as strongly linked to curriculum that they can, there's more chance of them just dropping it as a subject. Yeah. 

From pressures of other departments and things like that. Yeah, exactly. And if that's not in the front end of the curriculum, there's not going to be money and resource development on the subject, you know? So, so, so all of that side of everything's gone. So yeah, I mean, all of the students will lose connection to their local environments. They, they will. Yeah. 

In turn, all of the things that we talked about, the pros of outdoor ed, that will dissipate. And they'll, they'll, they'll lose that, that chosen path, that proven pathway for neurodiverse learners and learners like we talked about that may just struggle to engage in four walls. There's opportunities for them to celebrate the way that they learn and who they are. 

Not to, not to mention, obviously the, the, the flow on impact of the career pathways that are going to be impacted, you know, in our industry, the, the guiding, the outdoor guiding industry, which adventure tourism, which is one of our biggest marketing aspects as a country and our economy, because we don't have natural resources. Our resources is to tie our nature. So we need qualified, trained people to take people into those environments as well as all of the links to conservation. 

And which again, you don't want to go into environments if we have no, no bird life, no wildlife and, and, and yeah, we've just got to look after it. Also even local council workers and looking after council based outdoor education areas, environmental education. If you wanted to be an outdoor education teacher. So many pathways over there. Yeah. 

And I think that one of the other things that's not really always considered because the government seems to be focussing on really clear, succinct, direct pathways, but if you study and do outdoor education, the interpersonal skills and the way you learn how to talk to people, communicate and, and all of those other skills that we talked about, those are going to help any job. It doesn't matter what job you do, those skills, these life skills, these interpersonal skills that you develop in outdoor education, they're going to help everything. Yeah, that's so true. 

Debbie: Do you have a special story of a student and how they've succeeded in life through outdoor education that you'd like to share with us? 

Dave: Oh, yeah. That's a hard one. So many. Not to boast, but I've got so many, because obviously you spend so long in this, in this industry, but also just. Yeah. I mean, you teach a hundred students a year, you know, you, you just get, there's just so many incredible students that have taught, definitely taught me more about myself than I've taught them. 

Debbie: That's what they say, don't they? Teachers are actually the ones that end up learning the most. Because we are always learning from them. 

Dave: Yeah, definitely. But I will share one, one of my students, Caitlin, she, she was definitely one of those students at school that I was just kind of struggling to figure out who she was, you know? Yeah. Just lacked a bit of confidence and always questioning herself, but outdoor ed was that one subject where she felt she could kind of explore who she was. And then, yeah, just, had a, you know, not the easiest journey through life and then just said, but for her, I think outdoor education became that one constant grounding for her to just, yeah. 

Just keep her on track, you know? Yeah. So she now has, has been working in outdoor education and it's been pretty cool to see how she's used her experiences and her lessons and her journey or hiding it to, to influence other youth. And so it comes from a place of learning, growth and empathy, as opposed to just like teaching everyone hardcore knots and, you know, like throwing them off mountains and stuff like it's, yeah.  Yeah. Which I think is more important. Amazing. 

Debbie: Yeah. So, so yeah, that's probably how to connect with them. 

Dave: A hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. 

Debbie: That's really cool. So what do you think us as teachers, parents and students out there can do to fight this change? 

Dave: We just need to be loud. We need to be vocal. We need to take action. You know, they've given us such a short consultation period, I think a little bit on purpose there. So we just need to jump on the Aeons, which is Education Outdoors New Zealand website. 

There's the tab on the homepage says take action now. So you can click on whether you're a parent, a teacher, a student, a principal or someone in the sector or industry. And then there's some, you can make a submission there. 

And the more submissions we have, the bigger voice we have, the more, yeah, the platform we have to advocate against this change. And again, just sharing with people, if you're just standing in a car park and conversation strikes up, slide it in, you know, share it on your social medias, if you've got them. Yeah. 

Just like, share, don't be silent. Just let's just make a big fuss because it's not, it's not a good idea. It just isn't. 

And we need to make them understand why and at least go through due diligence of a proper, proper consultation. Yeah. A hundred percent agree. 

Debbie: So if the Minister of Education was here listening right now, what would you say to her?

Dave: Erica, I would say, have you seen that there's over, you know, there's at least 89 principals that have signed a petition against this and that's growing and growing and growing. So, you know, can you please take a look at all the advocacy that's happened so far and hopefully that'll just open your eyes a little bit more just to get a bigger picture. I'd also really like to see the evidence in the specific research to show that outdoor is not a viable academic or rigorous pathway. 

I would invite her to go on a trip, like an outdoor trip and be a fly on the wall and actually see firsthand the learning, the resilience and the growth that's happening. Yeah. And like, and maybe just, outdoor is not a political football. 

It's not, it's, it's, education, sorry, is not a political football, you know, and outdoor education shouldn't, shouldn't suffer from that. It's, yeah, it is a, it's going to shape lives for generations to come. So, yeah, go on a trip, do some research, consult widely, take a breath and search if this is really the right thing. 

Debbie: Yeah, I agree. And it's so sad because we live in Aotearoa, which is a country that is surrounded by bush and water and mountains and places where we can go and explore and outdoor education makes it safer for everyone because we learn those valuable schools that we need to be able to go and explore our backyard. So yeah, closing that off would just be such a bad, bad idea. 

Dave: It's yeah. It just baffles me that we're here to be honest and yeah, it sucks. Just something that we've seen, we kind of fly the flag for as a nation and as identity is, is at risk of being diminished in such a way that it'll be, it'll impact generations, you know? And if it does get moved into this academic, this vocational stream that they're, that they're talking about, who knows even what that's going to look like or what that is, you know, they're going to remove a lot of the contextual unit standards and create this new hundred point yeah, a hundred grade system. 

And that may not be relative to local context and environments. We don't even know what that looks like yet. That's not even looking on the agenda to be explored to 2026. 

So there's just so much unknown. So if you're a school and you're trying to set your pathways and your curriculums and there's so much unknown, no, it's not helpful. No, he had not an attractive option to promote. 

Yeah. And that uncertainty will flow onto parents and they're the ones that help guide their students decisions. So, so yeah. 

Debbie: We just, just need to prevent this from happening. 

Dave: Exactly. 

Debbie: All right. Well, Dave, thank you so much for sharing your insights and passion for our education. I think it's clear the way you've talked us through today, that it's not just about outdoor activities. 

It's about building confidence and capable young people who are connected to the land and to each other. So if you're listening and want to help get over to eonz.org.nz for all the details, templates and ways that you can take action and let's work together on hashtag bringout.ed back in. And thanks for all the amazing work that you're doing in this area, Dave, and let's hope that we can make the difference we need. 

Dave: Thank you. That's good.