A Principal's perspective with Sandy

In this inspiring conversation, Debbie sits down with Sandy, an experienced educator, former principal, and current leadership adviser with the Ministry of Education. We congratulate Sandy, as she has been recognised in the New Year's honours list as a member of the New Zealand Order of Merit for her services to education. Sandy shares the remarkable journey that took her from growing up on a farm in Ōamaru to leading schools in Auckland and now supporting principals across the region.

Sandy reflects on how she entered teaching almost by accident, the years she took off to raise four children, and the unexpected opportunities that led her into senior leadership. She offers a candid look at the realities of principalship, the pressure of decision-making, the importance of strategic thinking, and the weight of responsibility that comes with leading a school community.

Throughout the episode, Sandy highlights the power of relationships, trust, and culture within a school. She speaks openly about the challenges leaders face, the need for support networks, and how principals can manage the complexities of change while keeping student well-being and learning at the centre.

Now working as a leadership adviser, Sandy shares how meaningful it is to stand alongside school leaders, offering guidance, clarity, and a listening ear. Her reflections are grounded, wise, and full of heart, a valuable listen for teachers, aspiring leaders, and anyone passionate about education.

Hosted by Debbie Ross
Find us on Instagram & Facebook: @nurturingeducators

For more information, guest recommendations, and sponsorship opportunities 
or to chat, please email: nurturingeducators@gmail.com or visit  www.nurturingeducators.co.nz

Thanks for listening! 

Transcript

Debbie: Hello, everyone, and welcome to season two. Today I'm so excited to introduce our special guest, someone I've looked up to for years. I met Sandy back in 2013 when she offered me a job and from that moment on, she's been more than a leader. She's been a mentor, a role model, and the most supportive principal I've had the privilege of working with. Known for her open-door policy, unwavering support, and of course, her iconic fashion sense, Sandy led with heart, strength, faith, and style. Today we're diving into her journey from teacher to principal and what she's learned from the years of leading a school. Let's get into it. All right. I. So welcome, Sandy. It's so nice to have you, round two.

Sandy:Thanks, Debbie. 

Debbie: I had a bit of a technical glitch last time, so I'm really glad that you were able to re-record this. I appreciate it. So to start off with, would you like to just tell us a little bit about yourself?

Sandy: Well, first of all, I came off a farm at the back of Oamaru, so I spent my childhood on a farm, went to a local primary school near the farm and then went to a boarding school for my secondary education and then on to Otago University.

Debbie: Amazing. My dad's from Oamaru, so I know it well. Great area.

Sandy: It is great area, lovely ring country. And then after university, I met my husband in Dunedin, and he thought it would be appropriate to bring us back to Oamaru, and I didn't realise he'd got a job in Oamaru, so that was really interesting. I was a bit perplexed for a start about going back to where I came from.

Sandy: But it was a great place to bring up children, and we had four children. When they were little, it was quite a lot of freedom and we lived on the edge of the town. It was good. And then we moved to Thames. In between that, I went to Teachers College in Christchurch, of course, to do teacher training and started at a school in Oamaru—and then after a while, I did some science advising work for Otago.

Debbie: Was this all while you were still mumming?

Sandy: Yes.

Debbie: Wow. And how old were the kids by that stage?

Sandy: First of all, better to tell you, I had 10 years off to have four children. And then, so I taught for four years, had 10 years off, and then I went back part-time for a couple of years and then ended up as acting Head of Science, and then I did that, then I became Head of Science and then I was doing that for two years, and then I became Science Advisor for Otago, which was sort of as secondment and I did that for a year, and the next year I got a job at a Deputy Principal and a Assistant Principal first in a co-ed school in Auckland, and I was that for a year, and then became Deputy Principal at that school.

Debbie: How was the move up from Oamaru up to Auckland?

Sandy: Oh, it was crazy. People at that stage were actually coming down from Auckland to Oamaru and Dunedin in the South, shifting.

Debbie: So you did it the other way?

Sandy: We did it the other way round, and Otago Daily Times did an article on our family moving north, which just showed you how unusual it was at the time and how crazy people thought we were shifting to Auckland. It was the best thing for our children. They certainly had lots of opportunities here in Auckland in terms of being able to stay at home and go to university. Our oldest daughter still went to Otago, but the others stayed at home.DebbieSave money.SandySave money, yeah.

Debbie: And back then, it wasn't so common as well to go off to university like they do these days.

Sandy: Oh, yes. Yes. They were the days of, yes, they could accumulate quite a large student loan by going off to university. And I guess there's still the case, but hopefully it's better these days with at least one year being fee-free, that would be so helpful, I'm sure.

Debbie: So what led you into education?

Sandy: Well, that's an interesting question, Debbie, because I don't think I set out to be in education. I was doing a chemistry degree and then I was offered a position in postgrad to do some research at Otago, and I was very keen to do it, but I was at the stage where I was sick of not having any money. And in those days, you could actually get a studentship.

Debbie:Oh, wow, what a great opportunity.

Sandy:Yes, and get paid to go to university, but in response, you had to actually pay back that studentship by doing a year of teaching. So that's how I fell into teaching. 

Debbie: But then you loved it and kept going?

Sandy: Absolutely. It's been a fantastic career. It's been so rewarding and worthwhile and just shows you sometimes you can't plan things, if they happen and they're great, it's important to go with it.

Debbie: That's wonderful. So you started off teaching and then ended up working your way up. When did you decide that you wanted to head into those leadership roles?

Sandy: I think I just fell into them, Debbie. That's terrible to say, isn't it?

Debbie:No, not at all.

Sandy: When I went back part-time, and then there was—they needed a Head of Science at the school in Oamaru because the Head of Science was going on leave, and they said, "Oh, you should do that." And I was only teaching two classes at that stage.

Debbie: So it was just a natural progression?

Sandy: Yeah, and I thought, "Oh, okay, get ready to go. I'll give it a go." And then the same for Science Advisor, and then the same. But I guess it was a conscious decision when we moved to Auckland, because my husband was a lawyer and he said, "Will you get the job?" Because in those days, I mean, and I think still now, if you move on promotion, you get quite a lot of your expenses paid.

Debbie: It's a great incentive, yeah. Did you do any like, now these days, most principals have to do masters? Did they have to do that back when you were moving your way up the ladder?

Sandy: You didn't have to, but I actually did. When I was at the co-ed school here in Auckland, as well as being in senior leadership, I took on Masters of Educational Administration.

Debbie:Amazing. And what university provided that?

Sandy: That was Massey University, and I used to go to lectures after school. They were during weeknights and then spend the weekends writing assignments, sort of shutting myself into the bedroom to try and get some peace and quiet to do this.

Debbie: A lot of multitasking then, eh?

Sandy: It was, and I finished the Masters in my first year of principalship when I became principal of an all girls' school. And I was able to do my research project on teacher expectations of a principal's leadership.

Debbie: Wow. That's a fascinating topic.

Sandy: It was. It was very helpful for the new role of being a principal, what teachers expect a principal to do and what they would like them to do. So I found that really interesting and helpful.

Debbie: That's excellent. And so did you find that having that study as well as being in the role was really beneficial?

Sandy: It was beneficial, but it was full on, trying to learn to be a principal. And I didn't go to the beginning principals—they had just started a beginning principals course then—but because I was trying to finish my masters and be a principal, I didn't—I didn't take that on as well.

Debbie: You already had a lot on your plate. Yeah. How great. So what did you find that you really loved about when you became a principal?

Sandy: I guess the difference was I loved the opportunity to be able to make a difference, a significant difference. It's not to say you can't make it as a teacher and a senior leader, you can, for certain. But it was good to have a strategic view of what was happening in the school.

Debbie: Sure.

Sandy: And I think I love, I love the strategy. I love the fact of being really clear about what I wanted to see for the students, and therefore, in every decision you make, I think you have to consider the big picture and think of the consequences of a decision. Even small decisions can really derail what you want, the best you want for that community if you're not careful.

Debbie: So a lot of expectations and can be a lot of pressure on your shoulders as well.

Sandy:Definitely. I think the hardest thing about being a principal was knowing that you're it, so in terms of decision making, you can't pass it on to someone else and say, "Oh, it was their fault." It's actually your responsibility, and it's taking that responsibility. I think it's important.

Debbie:So you would have relied a bit on God to help you make those decisions, but also what did you do to go, "Okay, I'm just going to have to stick with that"?

Sandy: I think you have to have a bit of confidence in yourself, but you also have to be prepared to say to people, "Look, I made a mistake," you don't get it right. But I think you need to be able to make decisions. I think it is difficult to be in a school where decisions are not being made and not being made appropriately. I've been lucky with the principals that I worked with prior. And I saw one in Oamaru who was an absolute relationship builder, and I saw the importance of building relationships with your colleagues, with the students, with the community, and parents and boards. And the other principal I found that was really significant was the principal of the co-ed school in Auckland, who went to no end of trouble to make sure he had the right people teaching in the school that were in line with what the culture of the school was and what the vision of the school was for the students.

Debbie: It's so valuable. 

Sandy: Those lessons really stood me in good stead.

Debbie: I personally experienced working with you, I remember back in COVID days when we had all those trips planned and I just, in the moment, it was so hard for all of us who had to cancel these trips. I was seized, but looking back on it, we just realised like that showed true leadership because you were there to support us and explain why, but you also looked at the bigger picture and and knew it was the right thing to do. So yeah, I think you did a great job of being very personable and helping with the pastoral side of things, but also when you needed to make that decision, you were very good at doing it and then saying the reasons why. So we really appreciated you for that.

Sandy:Oh, Debbie, I love working with my wonderful colleagues like you because, I mean, I think that if you've got the trust in each other, I think that's really important. In a staff, the staff have to trust sometimes those decisions are made strategically and also the principal needs to trust what they're hearing from the staff and being responsive.

Debbie:that's great. So what were there any major challenges that you had in your time as a principal? Anything that sticks out? I'm sure you had plenty, but.

Sandy: I had lots of challenges. Those are the tough times. As the principal, when you're really challenged and you have to make a decision that's a difficult decision and that can keep you awake at night. Having a supportive partner, having great friends, that really helps. People outside of the situation that might give you a bit of balance. Otherwise, you can go around in circles sometimes about the decisions you have to make. But being able to bounce ideas off somebody that can keep it confidential and is completely divorced is great.

Debbie: Yeah that would be great. So, obviously, juggling so many things, what did you do to kind of support your own well-being?

Sandy: Oh, I was probably not as good at that as I should have been, Debbie, but I did try and get out for walks, enjoyed gardening, catching up with friends, doing family things, of course. And when you've got a family of four, they seem to take precedence when you got home. So I don't think there was any way I could have said, "Look, just wait you go," because I've got to do this or that. When you're being able to shut the door at school and go home, you immediately are in the moment of what was important for your family. That's a great way of being able to switch off from your troubles at school if you had any or the things you need to do.

DebbieYeah, that's such an interesting point. You don't really think about that, but it is, you're doing, switching from one role to another, aren't you?

Sandy: Definitely.

Debbie: And what about now that you've given up your principalship and you're in a different role? Have you got more time now to to do the things that you enjoy?

Sandy:Well, I've taken up Pilates.

SandyReformer Pilates, and I'm a bit of an advocate. I really enjoy it and I enjoy walks, enjoy gardening, enjoy going to the movies and catching up with friends. All of those things are great. And you're right, it's a different pace of life, not being a principal, certainly. I'm a leadership advisor and it's such a precious opportunity to actually support others when I've been supported throughout my career.

Debbie:Tell us a little bit more about that new role. What kind of things do you get to do?

Sandy: Well, It's schools saying, "Can you come and..." For principals in a job, it can be lonely, so sometimes just talking things over about decisions they're making.

Debbie: Yeah, amazing.

Sandy: That can clarify things or maybe you can actually get some help from them from somebody else that's more an expert in an area and act as a conduit. But being able to just be there and walk alongside them when they need you is a privilege.

Debbie: Yeah, and so that role is through the Ministry of Education?

Sandy: Yes. So I'm employed by the Ministry of Education. It's a new role. The last two years. This year, they've had 16 leadership advisors throughout the country and next year they're expanding it to 32. So they've seen the benefit for schools in particular, for school leaders. It's so important having somebody on the end of the phone that will listen and just help them come to good decisions.

Debbie: That's helpful. It's so important. So do you mainly deal with schools in Auckland?

Sandy:Yes. I've just been in the central and east really, but also because I'm the only secondary person at the moment in Auckland, I've also been involved with some schools out of the Central and East Auckland area.

Debbie: Oh, great. Well, they will definitely be using all your amazing skills, that's for sure.

Sandy: I don't know about that, Debbie. It's just being there for them, really.

Debbie: Yeah that's awesome, Sandy. So what were some of the things you did to support your staff through tough times?

Sandy: It's really hard being a teacher sometimes when things are not going well, because in the classroom, it's performance, isn't it? It's an act from the moment you walk into a class and what you're going to do with that class, to help them learn things and achieve. It's really important that staff feel good about being there and things are going right for them. So if a principal's job is, I think, to make things as easy for them as possible as it is possible to be. There's lots of change in education, and sometimes, as a teacher, if you're trying to unpack that change, if it's not made simple for you, it can be really hard because you're busy trying to do your other day job is actually get on and teach, but you're trying to unpack what's going on, the change. And if that can be done in a way that is doable and in chunks, that's the principal's job. It's a principal's job to make it smooth. I think it's the principal's job to ensure that they have a school culture that is conducive for teachers to teach and for students to learn. And that way everybody wins and it becomes a place of strong learning institution, really, if you can get those things right. So I think the principal has a role in supporting staff, and that way, making sure that they have good conditions to teach and, making sure they're supported when things go wrong, making sure you've got, It's important to have an open-door policy. So staff feel they can pop in and say, "Look, this is going on in my life," and you can actually respond appropriately, where you can to support them. What I've seen, it's often things outside of school that really are difficult for staff when they've got to come in and teach.

Debbie: Yeah, that was one of the things when we were chatting about it with our teacher friends the other day and reminiscing was that you had that open-door policy that we always really appreciated because, you know, family gets certain, things happen and it was always so nice to know that we could actually just pop in and let you know and you were always there to help us with relief or give us some guidance or whatever. So we really appreciate that.

Sandy: Thanks, Debbie. I knew what it was like.

Debbie: So how do you balance relationships with accountability?

Sandy: Where it is difficult sometimes as a principal, and that's where it's really important to have that strategic view and to realise that what is most important you're there for is actually to ensure the students in your care have the best education possible. And sometimes that can be at odds with what perhaps staff want or what parents want or what a board might want. So you're an advocate, really, to ensure that students do get the best deal. In saying that, I've always had supportive staff and supportive boards and supportive parents.

Debbie: Which is great.

Sandy: Which is fabulous, because that means it works.

Debbie: Yeah. Makes your job easier. That's for sure. So was there any leadership moments that stood out for you the most?

Sandy: There's lots of leadership moments. You feel a sense of pride when you see a student achieve things that they didn't think possible, and that could be in sport, it could be the academic, getting a scholarship to a university that they never dreamed that they would be able to attend, or it could be a learning support student who has just learned to make something and they come in and proudly show you. It could be, could be a board that have achieved a great building program and are proud of it, and you feel that sense of pride that they've been able to deliver something to make the community better. Yes. I think one thing stands out as an absence note I got once from a student. She had the opportunity to make a wish. She was a girl who had been quite sick in her junior years at school and unable to take up the Make-A-Wish Foundation's offer. In her year 12 year, she actually was able to go overseas and meet Barack Obama in his office in Washington with her mum. And when she came back, for a start, it was her mum rang up to see if she could have the time off to do it, which it was the beginning of the year, to which I said, "Of course." How could you say no to that? And then the following year, Barack Obama came back to New Zealand to speak at a conference and he was so taken with the student that he asked her and her mum would they like to go to a very incredibly fancy dinner or meet him at his hotel. And of course, the student, who is very relational and such a great person, said, "I'd rather meet you at the hotel, so that I can talk to you one on one." So she did that, and she was dressed in her school uniform and he said to her, "Now, where are you going now?" And she said, "I'm going back to school, of course." And so he said, "Well, I guess you'll need an excuse note, because you're late." And she said, "Yes." So on his card, he wrote, "Dear Mrs. Presley, please excuse so and so for being late for school, but she was visiting her friend, me, when I was in town," signed Barack Obama.

Debbie: Wow.

Sandy: And that was, That sums up people's lives and the preciousness of being a principal, you're in people's lives. And you share moments like that, you share sad moments when things happen and you also share those wonderful moments when things happen right for them.

Debbie: And you can. Pretty special place to be in.

Sandy: Oh, it is. And the same with staff when they get promotions or and the excitement, or they have babies or or they get married. All of it is just part of that journey, isn't it?

DebbieYes.

Sandy: And it's precious being in a community like that. And we—I've been lucky with the sisters that I've been at two older schools, and the strong support those people have given me, the sisters who have established those schools, and just really, they're walking beside you and that's made the difference. As have the boards that I have been lucky to have. The board chairs have been superb and the boards have just been very supportive, and you can't do it on your own. And if you know you've got that support there, it does give you confidence to do your job.

Debbie: Yeah, it's definitely all about community, isn't it?

Sandy: It is, Debbie.

Debbie: So for those of who are thinking of possibly moving into studying to become principals, is there any advice that you would give them?

Sandy: You've got to know exactly in yourself what you believe in in terms of education and what you want to see for the students in your care. You've got to have that strong sense of your purpose. Because if you don't, I don't think it works that well. Again, it's that through the purpose, the decision making, the strategy that you have to employ to actually ensure what happens. So it's understanding your deep beliefs about what you want for students. And I think it's always been that education can take you so many places and it empowers you for your life. So if you imagine that every student, you want that for every student, for them to have something in their back pocket that will see them have a good life and be part of a community and be part of the community that contributes and supports and not only themselves, but also everybody else and has responsibility to other people as well as themselves.

Debbie: Yeah, that's excellent advice. Is there anything that you wish people understood more about the role?

Sandy: The one thing that I've seen that shocks people is that responsibility. I think as a senior leader, you perhaps get a different view, but when you become the principal and you are responsible for everything, it does give you a really different perspective. But it's such a privilege and such a great job.

Debbie:You knew you did it for how many years?

Sandy: 23 years.

Debbie: Wow, that's so amazing. What a legacy. And so what is something that you are most proud of in your time as principal?

Sandy: What I'm most proud of is when I see and hopefully can contribute to a place being a strong community that the students feel that sense of belonging, it's their school and they're confident and they can take risks and they grow in confidence and you can see it throughout their school life. They come in shy as Year Sevens and then when they leave as Year 13s, they've got a sense of purpose. They have deepened their faith in the Catholic school and they have got a strong sense of knowing that they can make a difference to others' lives as well as their own. I think that it's also important that staff feel it's their school. That's not the principal's school, it's not the board's school, it's not. It's their school as well, and they have got a role in shaping that community and that school and they play an extremely important role. I think teachers are a school's best resource and a school is so lucky if it has fabulous teachers. It's so important. And I think the boards feel it that they've got that sense of belonging. I take my hat off to board members, they do a lot of work behind the scenes.

Debbie: They do a lot of work behind the scenes and they're very generous with their time.

Sandy: Yeah. And I don't think sometimes the parent community realises, but they do it in a relatively unseen way, I guess, but they are very important. And the parent community supporting that school and feeling it's their school and feeling like that sense of belonging as well, so that they can come in and share if they've got concerns or they can come in and share when there's success and feel like they're listened to and it's really important.

Debbie: Yeah, oh, that's awesome. So one last question to finish up. Where to next for you? What's the plan?

Sandy: Oh, Debbie, well, I'm going to do this leadership advisory role for another year and I'm thrilled about that because it gives me an opportunity to meet more people and hopefully be of some help to them in their principalship.

Debbie: Yes, definitely.

Sandy: I miss the students and staff of the school I left, but, you know, you've got to move on sometimes.

Debbie: On your journey.

Sandy: Yes. And it's good to be involved with family things and friends.

Debbie: Time with your grandkids, too.

Sandy: Yes, 12 of them. They're fantastic.

Debbie: They'll keep you busy.

Sandy: I love them. 

Debbie: How wonderful.

Sandy: Yes wonderful.

Debbie: Oh, great. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Sandy, and sharing a part of your journey, I think, you know, from stepping into leadership, guiding a school community and now supporting other principals, is such a great thing and your insights and stories and wisdom are such an amazing thing. So it's been a real privilege to have you on the podcast today and I wish you all the best in your new chapter.

Sandy: Thank you, Debbie, and the same to you. All the best with your career.

Debbie: Thank you very much.

Disclaimer: This transcript was generated by an AI assistant and may contain minor errors or inaccuracies in punctuation, speaker identification, or word choice. It is provided for convenience and reference purposes only.