Why Faith Feels Shallow and How to Move Into Real Surrender, with Phill Tague

Many Christians believe in Jesus, attend church, and know the language of faith — yet still feel like something is missing. Why does faith sometimes feel shallow, controlled, or unsatisfying?

In this episode of Living Testimonies, Phill Tague shares his journey from growing up in a well-meaning but legalistic Christian home, through seasons of rebellion and questioning, into a life fully surrendered to Jesus. Phill opens up about how God radically redirected his life, including a near-fatal climbing accident that solidified the truth that his life no longer belonged to himself.

Phill also shares the heart behind his book, written for believers who sense there must be more to faith but have never fully understood covenant relationship with Jesus. He challenges the idea of “air-brushed Christianity” and calls listeners to move beyond safe, controlled belief into true intimacy that costs something — and transforms everything.

If you’ve ever wondered whether there’s more to following Jesus than what you’re currently experiencing, this conversation will challenge, clarify, and invite you into deeper surrender.

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Links to Connect with Phill Tague:

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Transcript

Israel Caminero 0:05

Before we jump into today's episode, I just want to take a moment to thank all of you who've been listening, sharing, and supporting the Living Testimonies Podcast. Your love, your prayers, and your encouragement truly keep this ministry moving forward. If you haven't already, make sure you like, share, and subscribe so you don't miss any of the powerful stories God is using to touch lives. And if the podcast has blessed you, I want to encourage you this year to share it with just one person who might need hope or encouragement. You never know how God could use that simple step to change a life. My goal for 2026 is simple: to reach hearts in places we haven't reached yet. New communities, new listeners, and people who desperately need to hear that God is still moving. With your help and with every care, we can grow this ministry far beyond what any of us could imagine. Before we begin, I want to speak a quick blessing over you, which is found in Philippians chapter 4, verse 7. May the peace of God which surpasses all understanding guard your heart and your mind in Christ Jesus. I pray this episode brings you hope, strength, and a fresh reminder of God's faithfulness. Now with hearts open and expectations high, let's step into today's story. Today's conversation is for anyone who's ever wondered, is there more to faith than this? This episode is going to challenge and encourage you. My guest today is Phil Tague. Phil, I'm excited to have you here. I'll let you introduce yourself in your own words to the audience.

Phill Tague 2:06

It's great to be here. My name is Phil. I'm a husband. I'm a dad. I'm both a biological dad and an adopted dad. I've been married 25 years with my beautiful wife, Stephanie. I have three kids, two adult kids, and then uh one uh 11-year-old. He's a little adoptive guy. 10 years later, God said, Hey, you're gonna adopt. So we joined that kind of adoption journey. I've been a pastor since college, pretty much my whole adult life. And uh church planter, uh, started the church I'm at now. I uh my wife and I founded it in 2009, and and uh it's been a great journey. I'm an author, a reluctant author, didn't want to write a book, but the Lord had a different plan for me. And uh more importantly than that, I'm just a follower of Jesus who grew up in a Christian family and also in a space where I just want there has to be more to Jesus than what I am growing up with. So that's a little bit about me.

Israel Caminero 2:59

And we can't wait to hear the rest of it. I know a little bit from what you wrote me, and I can't wait. So before we do that, though, I'd like to open up in prayer and say, Father God, we thank you for this space and this conversation. Holy Spirit, we ask that you lead, convict, and reveal truth today. Strip away anything that is false, shallow, or rooted in fear, and draw us into deeper surrender and intimacy with you. Prepare hearts to hear what you want to say, and give us courage to respond in obedience in Jesus' name, amen.

Phill Tague 3:34

Amen.

Israel Caminero 3:34

All right, Phil. So you said you grew up in a Christian home that was loving but very legalistic from what you sent to me. How did that environment shape your early understanding of God?

Phill Tague 3:46

Uh yeah, I mean, I I grew up, I was uh the third of four kids, third of four adopted kids, the only boy um in the family. And I was the only one in the family that just the way that I'm wired, I was sort of like the the performer, you know. I want to, I want to achieve, I want to excel, I want to do well at things. Even when faith was introduced to us by her parents, I had a desire to like to know God and to grow in my faith. You looked at your parents, and I had I had wonderful parents. I I don't have anything to complain uh about. My parents are wonderful people, they love the Lord very much, but uh our household was very much a carrots and sticks type of household. It was uh you're rewarded for the good things you do. Uh, and uh there's punishment if you don't live up to the standard, or at very least, there's comparison. Uh, why are you not more like your sister? Why are you not more like your brother? Uh, and definitely that took on you know legalistic tones when it came to faith. Uh, my dad had high expectations of us as kids, both in, you know, our participation in church things and in our behavior. Um, he did not always live up to those standards himself. He had a bit of a temper and great man, great man of God. But I just I learned a lot about how to follow God uh from watching my father, and and the lesson that I learned was that following God was about doing the right thing, following the rules, and being good enough. And that just didn't that didn't mesh with me as I got into scripture myself with the Jesus I was seeing in scripture. So that's a little bit about how that shaped my story.

Israel Caminero 5:26

Okay. Being that that was going on in your house, were you questioning your faith or anything at that point?

Phill Tague 5:34

Yeah, I definitely I I would go through seasons where I try really hard. Uh, and then, you know, when you try really hard in your faith, your faith gets really hard. And uh there I'd try really hard, and then I'd really mess up, and then I'd kind of beat myself up, and then I'd run away from things for a little bit, and then I'd try to get myself right and try really hard again. And it was always about whether I was good enough, you know, whether I was doing enough. And so I just went back and forth and back and forth, and it really did so sown some seeds of doubt in my faith, which, you know, really came to affect me later when I felt a call to ministry because I didn't want to be called to ministry. I was, you know, I simultaneously wanted to know God, but also wasn't sure I fully believed. I simultaneously wanted to do the right thing, but also wanted to get out of this legalistic uh rut I was in. And so when God called me to ministry, I I went to college to study for ministry. And uh also, you know, I was in the same year of college, my freshman year of college, I was studying for ministry and I was doubting my faith and talking myself out of my faith. And at the end of that year, I I walked away. I just walked away from the Lord.

Israel Caminero 6:45

So you were convicting yourself because of the way you probably got brought up in your house.

Phill Tague 6:51

For sure, for sure. And I was uh, you know, when I when I walked away, I mean, my my idea of following was following the rules, and so my idea of rebelling was breaking all the rules. And uh that's exactly what I did. I I just the whole list of rules that I grew up, you're not supposed to do these things. I jumped headlong into all of them trying to look for answers uh in in something else. And I didn't find the answers. I found a lot of heartache and misery and and uh I I came to a a point in my life where I had one particular night, I I ended up back in my house. I I don't I woke up that morning, I don't remember the night before very well. I don't remember how I got home. Um, I remember waking up and feeling very, very empty and realizing that the the life I was chasing uh had no fulfillment in it. And uh I was I was laying there in my bed, and it's the first time I can remember in my life feeling like the Holy Spirit was speaking to me, feeling like, you know, that voice inside you that's just guiding you, and and what the Holy Spirit said to me was something along the lines of why do you think the answer to hypocrisy is hypocrisy? It's the first time I realized that as much as I knew about Jesus, I didn't know Jesus. As much as I had grown up wanting to follow Jesus, I had I'd even prayed a salvation prayer, but what I'd never done is I'd never let him be Lord in my life. I'd never surrendered, and I'd never chosen him. Um and I did that in that moment, and it has absolutely changed the trajectory in my life.

Israel Caminero 8:31

Amen. Basically, you just didn't have a relationship with him back then, you know.

Phill Tague 8:37

Absolutely. That that was the that was a critical issue. I I had the I had the knowledge about this man, Jesus. I had the rules I was supposed to follow to be more like Jesus. I just didn't know Jesus. I didn't have a relationship with him.

Israel Caminero 8:54

So how did you know that God was calling you into ministry?

Phill Tague 8:58

Well, you know, I was at a camp and I was I was involved in church, you know, and at that time I was it happened to be one of the times where I was leaning in, not leaning out. And I was I happened to be playing uh bass guitar on the worship team, and and uh, you know, I I take back that that was the second time the spirit talked to me because the first time he talked to me was at that camp when I was playing bass guitar, and I felt like the Holy Spirit say, What are you doing? And I said, Well, I'm I'm playing bass guitar. And uh he said, No, I mean, what are you doing? They were doing an altar call for ministry. He said, No, what are you doing? That calls for you. And I responded to that call, but I was I remember being at the altar, knowing for sure this is what God wants from me, and not wanting any part of it, and just being at the altar, still wrestling with surrender. Uh, that's how my calling started.

Israel Caminero 9:50

Wow. Well, the Lord does work in mysterious ways, and obviously He didn't want you playing that bass guitar.

Phill Tague 9:58

Yeah, not in that moment, not in that moment. He had different plans for me, and uh my entire calling, my entire life has been maybe I'm stubborn, maybe I'm the problem, but so much of my life has has come down to surrender. It's come down to moments in my life where God says, I want this, and I say, I don't want that at all. And I I fight him on it, but inevitably it always comes down to I surrender to his will, and I am so much more blessed. You know, I didn't want to go into ministry, I didn't want to be in the first at the first church I was at in in North Carolina. I didn't want to leave youth ministry to work with adults and plant a church, and I didn't want to write a book, and and all along the way, God has called me into deeper and deeper and deeper levels of of surrender and deeper levels of relationship.

Israel Caminero 10:49

Amen. So you also mentioned that in 2006 you experienced a life-altering climbing accident. Can you share what happened and how that moment deepened your surrender?

Phill Tague 11:01

Absolutely. I was a youth pastor at the time, and we were at our campground that uh our denomination owns, and we were we were doing training on the ropes course, which exists uh uh included like ropes and cliffs and all kinds of different things. Um, and we had finished our training, and um I there was a there was a pulley that uh something was malfunctioning, wasn't right at the top of the 60-foot climbing wall. And so they asked for volunteers. I climbed up to the top and I fixed the pulley, and I was getting rappeled down, and we double checked my gear, and everything was good. And I came over the wall and was ready to start repelling. And the first time I pushed off, all my gear gave loose. It just we don't know to this day what happened, but I was free-falling from 60 feet. And uh I in the moment, in the moment, I mean it happened so quickly, but in that moment, my first thought I had was, I'm glad I have life insurance because I thought I'm I'm dead, and I'm glad my wife's gonna be my kids are gonna be taken care of. I had two little kids at the time. Uh, the second thing was the Holy Spirit uh kind of whispered to me, turn your body to the left and relax. And I thought, well, that's kind of weird, but that's what I did. And this felt like it was taking a long time, but it really happened in just a matter of moments. And I fell, and I fell, the doctors have looked back and said, I fell the only way I could have fallen and survived. I uh broke my pelvis in in half front and back. I fractured it five times along the left crest. I pulverized my left ankle, I got four spine cell fixations, and a bunch of my the when my bones broke, they went right up in between a couple of internal organs. And if they would have punctured one, I would have died. I should then when they showed up, they showed up with a body bang. They didn't, they just assumed I was dead. And uh I they put took me to my first surgery, giving me a 50% chance of surviving uh the surgery. And as I was waiting for that first surgery, I was laying in the hospital in more pain, more pain than I can even express. And again, I felt like the Holy Spirit uh spoke to me. And again, I'm in ministry, I've chosen my calling, I've surrendered to him, I'm following him. And the Holy Spirit said, Is it okay if I broke you and it's not about you? Wow. And I had been asking him, like, will you bring that scripture to my mind that you know I wanted something that was comforting, something that, and the story he brought to my mind is a story of the young man born blind. And everybody says, Well, somebody had to have sinned. Who sinned? Was it him? Was it his parents? Who sinned? Whose fault is it that he was born blind? And Jesus' answer is nobody sinned. Uh, this isn't anybody's fault. This happened that I might be glorified. And it was uh, it was a moment where I just, you know, I came out of that surgery and with a different perspective, and I began to look at the ministry that I had started, and it was great. It was a great ministry. It was just all about me. I it didn't work without me. It was centered around my personality, and I had to reboot everything I do and uh figure out how do I have power, how do I release, how do I pour into other people. And I I just feel like that was a point in my life where I had to surrender my life looking like I wanted my life to look like. He has a call for me, and his plan is better. And even in the, you know, I think of uh the story of uh Joseph and his brothers, they sell him into slavery. I just got done reading that in Genesis in my in my devotions, and it says in that story four times, it says, and the Lord was with Daniel and everything and blessed everything he did. But that was like while he got sold into slavery, while he ended up in slavery, while he was falsely accused, while he was in prison, and he did God did all of that so that Joseph might end up in the right place to save people through his dream interpretation and and uh his food provision. And you know, it was it was you know, 20 years Joseph suffered, but with God's bigger purpose. And all along the way it says God was never never with Joseph. So this was the moment that was my Joseph moment. That was my moment in life where I'm like ups and downs, whatever. What if God is with me, if God is um calling me to something, it's better than any comfort I could choose for myself.

Israel Caminero 15:31

That's right. That's right. That was deep. Yeah. Body bag and everything. And here you are to this day. How has that surrender shaped your marriage, parenting, and leadership?

Phill Tague 15:44

Yeah, I mean, the probably the most visible way that it shaped my life is the church I planted. I can I can look back at who I was before I fell and who I was through that refining process, which again was the most painful thing I've ever been through. And I can say without a shadow of a doubt, two things. One, my church would not exist because I would not have been in the place to be obedient enough to say yes to that call. And two, um, I can say, looking back, I would do it again. And I think, you know, it it it has shaped the the parent I have been for my children, it has shaped the husband I've been for my wife, in that I'm not first. I'm not serving God for what I can get out of it, I'm not married for what I can get out of. I'm like I am a servant of the most high God, and if he wants to use me through good and bad, that doesn't mean I don't have a bad attitude sometimes. It doesn't mean I don't struggle. Uh, it doesn't mean I don't get stuck playing like everybody with regrets or playing the comparison game. But if I keep my eyes fixed on him, whatever he wants me to do is best, even if I can't see it at the time. And that the way that affects how you parent, the way that affects your marriage and how you treat your spouse, the way that affects ministry is pretty profound. It is.

Israel Caminero 17:07

And the church you planted, what did obedience look like in that season when when you planted it?

Phill Tague 17:13

I ended up starting this church in my hometown. I never wanted to move home. It brought me into a season where um not only do I want to not want to move home because of some of the dynamics around my family, but we moved here and immediately God began to bless the church uh with with growth and and and uh just health and those types of things. And we planted the church in 2009. And uh in 2010, things with my family started going south fast. My my mom started uh showing signs of uh Alzheimer's. My I realized there was some bank fraud against my parents. I had to try to work through. My dad had had MS for years, and he started getting sicker, and then my best friend got cancer. 2013, my best friend died. Uh 2014, uh my dad died. 2019, my mom, she lingered with Alzheimer's for and dementia for a long time, and she finally died in 2019. All this time, the church is being blessed. And in 2019, my wife and I went, took a deep breath and went, maybe, maybe now we'll get to breathe. And then COVID happened. I found myself coming out of that season just broken and once again had to be, took a sabbatical and had to be reminded by God don't chase this world, don't chase certain circumstances or comfort. I've been with you this entire way. Just get keep your eyes on me, get your identity back in me. And the only success I want you to chase is chase is obedience. Because if I chase the success of this world, my life is going to be up and down and up and down. Uh, when I make obedience, the thing I'm chasing, on my best day, you know, we had a Sunday recently where we baptized 40, almost 50 people in one Sunday. And that Sunday I could lay my head on my pillow and I didn't go, look how great we're doing. I went, God, thanks for letting me be part of what you're doing. On the other side of that, on the worst day, when things are going really bad, when people leave the church, when people are angry, whatever's going on in culture, on my worst day, I can still say, was I obedient? And if I was, I could lay my head on my pillow, I can go to sleep because that's what I'm chasing. It's just obedience to him. And so it drives everything I do.

Israel Caminero 19:27

Amen. You know, obedience to God isn't about rules, it's about trust. When we stop chasing what the world says, it will satisfy us and choose to follow him instead. That's where real peace shows up.

Phill Tague 19:39

Amen.

Israel Caminero 19:40

Yeah. So you talk openly about Christians who feel faith is lacking. Why do you think so many believers reach that place?

Phill Tague 19:52

Um well, I'm speaking from my own experience here uh as a pastor, but also just as a Christian, you know, and you know, almost 20 years of ministry and uh over 20 years of ministry, having been on the journey myself, what I see all the time is I see people who want the benefits of a relationship with God, but none of the cost. And when that's your when that's your lens, this whole Christianity thing, either you're gonna adjust your life to his call, or you're gonna adjust scripture to your life. There's no other option. And I watch so many people who, you know, the word of God is full of grace and mercy and truth, but also some of that truth is really hard. And you know, I watch so many people say, Oh, that's antiquated, that can't, that that can't be true anymore, or God couldn't possibly expect me to to obey in that way, and they begin to reform and reshape Jesus into their image instead of reshaping themselves into his image. And so what ends up happening for so many people, the reason I feel so lacking is you know, you make promises to yourself as if Jesus made them to you, you know, but he didn't make them to you. It was an image of him you created in your own head, and then those promises don't come true, and then you're angry at a God who doesn't even exist, a version of Jesus that doesn't even exist for not keeping promises that you made to yourself. And there are so many people who because we can't surrender our will to his will, they're missing out. I uh in my book I talk a lot about I define intimacy as being fully known and still chosen. And you know, in my marriage, what makes intimacy deep is not the physical relationship we have. What makes intimacy deep is that as she gets to know me more and more and more and still chooses me, that increases the level of intimacy in our life. And the problem is people want intimacy with God, but they don't want the cost of intimacy with God. And so they settle for a cheap substitute.

Israel Caminero 22:02

That's good. You spoke a little bit about your book. What's the name of your book?

Phill Tague 22:08

So the name of my book is Jesus Be the Centerfold, Choosing Covenant Faith over Airbrush Christianity. And it's a it's a look at my own story. So I was exposed to pornography when I was nine. And I mentioned I was growing up in the church. I'd do the right thing and then slip into the wrong thing. Pornography was one of those things that had its hooks in me. One time I got busted by my dad looking at pornography, and he he confronted me about it. And he confronted me about the fact that it wasn't real. It was just an airbrushed picture. And I realized in that moment that I didn't care because I liked how it made me feel. I was willing to settle for a cheap substitute rather than do the hard work of actually having any real relationship because I liked how it made me feel. And this book is not in any way a book about pornography. It's actually a book about, it's a book about settling for less than all of who God is. But this has been just a perfect metaphor for me to trace. I think this is exactly what we do with God. I think we we airbrush a picture of Jesus because we would we want all the benefits of intimacy, but none of the cost, and we're willing to settle for a cheap substitute that we know isn't real, but at least he's palatable.

Israel Caminero 23:16

And I will have links to that book on the description of the podcast if anybody wants to go and check it out and read it and support Phil and his mission. All right, Phil, so what does true covenant relationship with Jesus look like compared to convenient or controlled faith to you?

Phill Tague 23:36

Oh man. I'm gonna use marriage as a metaphor because God often uses marriage as a metaphor. So every marriage I've ever done, uh every wedding I've ever done, I mean, when we get to the ceremony, they give me the uh they give me the contract, you know, that you're supposed to sign. And it always has a box that you check, is it religious or civil? And it's a reminder that there is a way to get married that is only viewed as a contract. And then there's a way to get married that's viewed as a covenant. In a contract, uh, you're just saying, hey, we are contracting with one another, and as long as you keep up your end of the bargain, I'm in on this thing. But if you don't keep up your end of the bargain, this contract says I can get out of this. A covenant, covenants are promises. I tell every couple that I do a wedding for, when you make this covenant, you're actually making a promise to God on behalf of your spouse. And the the difference between a contract, contracts are one-sided. They're they're they're written to protect me. Covenants are two-sided and they take mutual voluntary submission and mutual surrender. And so many of us approach the relationship with God as a contract, like, well, I will sign the dotted line, like, yep, I believe in Jesus, yep, I'm a follower. And as long as life's going the way I want, as long as things feel great, as long as things are beneficial to me, and that I can see the return on investment in this relationship with God, I'm in. But when God doesn't behave or operate the way I want him to, when he expects something of me, I don't like, when I read the scripture and I come across a rule and like he couldn't possibly mean that, he's not keeping up his end of the bargain anymore, and I'm out. And that's where people struggle with their faith. But what God is inviting us into is a relationship of complete intimacy and surrender, where he's saying, I'm giving all of myself for you. In fact, scripture says that not only does Jesus do his part, he does our part. He washes the bride of Christ, the church, with his own blood. And all he's saying is, I just want you to love me like I love you. That's the invitation of covenant. And so in a contract, I do all the right things to try to be good enough to live up to my end of the contract. In a covenant, I'm so in love with the one I'm covenanting with that everything I do is a response. When I take out the trash for my wife, it's not because I'm like, stinking wife has all these rules for me. She's gonna be mad if I don't do it. Uh, I take out the trash because I love her and I know she hates taking out the trash. And I know it's a way that I can honor her. And there are a thousand things I do in my marriage that are for my wife that all bring honor to our relationship, but they're all a response to the love that I have, to the covenant that I'm in. They are not, they're not a contractual obligation. There's nothing I do to earn my relationship with my wife. And in the same way, there's no amount of rules you can follow to earn your relationship with God. He's told us that, but his grace is freely offered, and all he's saying is, will you love me as much as I love you? That's the invitation.

Israel Caminero 26:44

It all starts with the heart, always. And a lot of people think it's easy when you give your life to Christ, and like you said, about the relationship and the convenience about I'm a follower of Jesus, but I'm going through some hardship. Let me just go to the bar and forget about that, or just forget about Jesus, period, when they go through hardships. So it's all about that joy and contentment that Jesus gives us while we're going through hardships that He might not change our situation, but He gives us the power to be able to deal with it in a different way.

Phill Tague 27:21

And it's so important for us to understand that. You know, when people approach their faith, and I mean you've heard this too, they get mad at God and they're struggling in their faith, and they're like, if God is so good, then why is my marriage struggling? If God is so good, why did my mom get cancer? Why did my husband get cancer? And their assumption is that God works in a certain way that he never promised. He said right in the scripture, in this world you will have trouble. But take heart because I've overcome the world. He he, you know, when when life goes the way we want, we're happy, but we forget that he said, deny yourself, take up your cross and follow me. And so when we have a mistaken notion of who God is, it can affect the ability for us to even maintain our faith because we're expecting something of God that He simply just never promised.

Israel Caminero 28:11

That's right. There's that famous line, why do bad things happen to good people?

Phill Tague 28:16

You know? That's right. Uh, which, and I mean, the simple answer, we blame that on God, but the simple answer is because good people make bad choices and because there's no good people. You know, Romans 3 tells us everyone has sinned, we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And if that's the standard, there are no good people. Uh, there's a gracious God who loves us, amen. Who says, no matter what you've done, you know, Jesus has made a way back to the Father. And that is the most beautiful, gracious thing. But uh, how can a good God if if God's good, why did good things happen to bad, or why do bad things happen to good people? They don't. Bad things happen to people, right? Because we're living in a broken, sinful world. But God is so rich in his mercy that while we were sinners, Christ died for us.

Israel Caminero 29:02

That's right. That's absolutely correct. So, what would you say to a believer who wants intimacy with God but is afraid of the cost?

Phill Tague 29:12

Uh, you know, I mean, this is an oversimplicid statement, and I don't mean for it to sound callous or anything like that, but uh, you get what you pay for. You know, I would say there is a cost to anything being great. There's a cost to my marriage being great. And that cost is I'm all in. And when I surrender fully to this relationship with my wife and she surrenders fully to me, the best marriages are formed when we go through the storms together, hand in hand. Doesn't mean everything's perfect all the time. I would ask people to say, what are you holding on to in this temporary earth that seems so valuable that it's not worth training for eternity with your Heavenly Father? What are you holding on to in this temporary earth that is so valuable that the cost seems too high to live in surrender? You know, so many people look at this life, and and part of the problem is we read scripture and we read the promises that God has made us for eternity and for what that's gonna look like. And we want that now, sort of like young people who want to own their parents a home as nice as their parents, right, when they graduate from college. And you're like, well, I mean, there's no way you can afford to do that, right? You got to count the cost.

Israel Caminero 30:34

Right.

Phill Tague 30:34

Uh in this in the same way. God makes us eternal promises, and we think we want the problem is we want him to turn heaven into earth, but heaven's not earth. Earth is this place that he said is full of trouble, that he said is broken by sin, where he gives us an opportunity to be forgiven of our sins and be with him in eternity, but where he also leaves us on mission to reach to seek and save the lost, you know? Uh that's what he's called us to. And that's not the life we want. We want our life to feel like heaven. We don't want to be on his mission here on earth. And and so I I would just say, what are you holding on to? You know, do you really want to take your 70, 80 years and just make it all about you and your comfort and not be willing to trade and be trade eternity for that? Or or do you want to get on mission with the Lord and say, hey, for me to live as Christ and to die is gain, like Paul says, and and uh reframe your perspective because I'm I'm living with an eternal perspective. In light of eternity, scripture says these are light momentary troubles.

Israel Caminero 31:41

Amen. I mean, at the end of the day, only what's done for Christ will last, everything else eventually fades. Absolutely. So Phil, we're getting ready to close here, but I have a few questions that I want to ask you. And my first one is when you're in a difficult season or phasing resistance, or not even that, is there a scripture that anchored you throughout your life, you know, a verse that reminds you who you belong to and why you surrendered, that you could always look back at and read and what that scripture is and what it means to you.

Phill Tague 32:20

Absolutely. I don't remember what version I'm quoting this out of, but it's what I memorized it in as a kid. Uh, Romans 8, verse 38 and 39 say, For I am persuaded that neither life nor death, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, neither height nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Israel Caminero 32:47

That's good. And what does that mean to you?

Phill Tague 32:50

There is nothing I can face in this life that can separate me from Jesus. There's nothing I can do that he's gonna stop loving me. There's nothing I can do to earn more of his love. There's nothing I can do that's gonna cause him to love me less. And maybe most importantly, I don't have to earn my way. I don't have to prove anything. When I wake up in the morning, before my feet hit the floor, I'm already enough for Jesus. There, there's nothing I'm gonna come up against that is gonna cause me to be outside of God's reach.

Israel Caminero 33:24

That's good. Thank you for that. Now we're going to my back to the past segment of the podcast. And what my back to the past section is, if you could go back and speak to the younger version of yourself, the one wrestling with legalism, rebellion, and questioning about God, what would you tell him now?

Phill Tague 33:47

I would tell him that the things he thinks have great value won't even be part of his life later in life. The things that the things that made it so hard to surrender, the things that seemed so much more important than this relationship with God. This relationship with God is still the thing that's bringing me joy in this life, and none of those things are even a part of my life anymore. And so I would, I would just, I would really challenge him to think about what's really important. I would also tell him, take God more seriously and don't take yourself nearly as seriously. You don't have to have it all together, you don't have to be perfect, you don't have to look perfect for everybody, you don't have to pretend like you've got it all together. And I watch so many people in church pretend like they've got it all together and they don't. I know things are falling apart. It's okay to be vulnerable, it's okay to be messed up, it's okay to admit that you're messed up, it's okay to laugh at yourself. Uh, I would say take God way more seriously than you do, and take yourself way less seriously than you do.

Israel Caminero 34:58

Not saying you would have listened, but at least you would have tried, right?

Phill Tague 35:03

That's right.

Israel Caminero 35:05

Well, thank you, Phil, for sharing that. Before we close, is there anything else that you might want to share with the audience? I know you shared about your book. I will have links to that on the description of the podcast. Is there anything else that you might want to share? Um, you know, I would I would just share if you feel isolated in life, in faith, number one, you're not alone, God's with you.

Phill Tague 35:32

But I would I would just say find find a church, find someone to talk to. Do not do life alone. You're not meant to be alone. God did God built this for interdependence, not independence. And I would say you're worth listening to. And uh find someone who who sees that. Find someone who could be a a friend, a mentor, a fellow brother, sister of Christ to walk with you because you're worth being listened to.

Israel Caminero 35:58

That's right. Can't do this life alone. That's what the enemy wants, is to isolate you and keep you by yourself. Absolutely. Still, kill, and destroy. That's what he wants. Amen. So, Phil, would you pray for us and the listeners, especially the ones that believe in Jesus but know deep down they've never really fully surrendered?

Phill Tague 36:21

Sure. Sure, let's pray. So, Father, for those who might be listening to this call right now who have maybe been part of church their whole lives or for a long time, and uh maybe afraid of prayer uh to put their faith in Jesus, but their life has yet to be surrendered and transformed by you. I'm guessing they feel it. I'm guessing they feel like their faith is overwhelming, their faith is hard, uh, that faith is an uphill battle, that faith is lonely. Uh, and in reality, uh you never leave us, you never forsake us, you're with us always. And so uh more than anything, I just pray you would show yourself to them today, uh, that you would be their peace and their comfort, and I pray that you would help them here today, that there is more to this relationship with Jesus, but it's on the other side of surrender, that they wouldn't they wouldn't go one more minute missing out, Lord, but they would turn fully to you, surrender to you, and experience you in the way that I did all those years ago uh that changed the trajectory of my life. We love you and uh thank you for loving us. Amen.

Israel Caminero 37:26

Amen, amen. Phil, thank you for your honesty, boldness, and obedience. Thank you for challenging believers to move beyond shallow faith and into real covenant with Jesus, and most of all for taking the time to be here to share your testimony. I know you're a busy man, but here you are on the podcast, sharing your testimony so someone can hear it.

Phill Tague 37:48

It's a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

Israel Caminero 37:50

Anytime, anytime. And if today's episode stirred something in you, don't ignore it. Lean in, pray, respond. Make sure to like, subscribe, share this episode, and leave a review so others who are hungry for more than surface level faith can find it. Remember, Jesus never called us to comfort, he called us to covenant. This is Israel Camanero, and this is Living Testimonies, your story, his glory.