In Conversation With - Nav Sawnhey: Founder of The Washing Machine Project

Join MindHug CEO Chitraj (Raj) Singh on the MindHug podcast series on change, as he engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Nav Sawnhey: founder of the grassroots social enterprise 'The Washing Machine Project'.

In this episode, they discuss the inspiration behind The Washing Machine Project, why life’s experiences hold different value to each of us, and how the power of community can drive meaningful change.

Transcript

Raj: [00:00:00] Nav Sawnhey of the Washing Machine Project. You've all seen him on those BBC stories, and we see you attend Downing Street all the time. You were at the King's Coronation. So you're clearly influencing the right people, and people are paying notice. 

Nav: I would take the toolbox out of the cupboard. I would just break everything.

You know, taking apart appliances, not knowing how to put them back together. 

Raj: You left Dyson, a leading engineering company. You now have an electronics company behind you supporting the Washing Machine Project. 

Nav: As 

an engineer you can really help or hinder humanity and I knew what side I wanted to be on.
 

Raj: Well, welcome everyone. This is another episode of MindHug's series on change: 'We Got You'. Today I’ve got a guest who is all about change really. Life, work he's doing, and a buddy of mine. Nav Sawnhey off The Washing Machine Project. [00:01:00] So Nav is very interesting. I mean you've all seen him on those BBC stories and you've seen Washing Machine Projects on all the hoardings everywhere including Waterloo as well, but there's a real story behind this and there's a story of change and there's a story of change of Nav influencing the right people. But there's a story of change in his personal life and the people he impacts as well and we're going to touch upon all of this, and i'll let Nav introduce himself But it's very, heartening to see where The Washing Machine Project's come from when we first 

 met.

the BBC documentary that you did

soon after we met, which was that blue drum, the plastic blue drum. You remember you took that, it was basically a blue drum with a scissor cut

out. You remember that? 

Nav: When did we first meet then?

Raj: That was around 2019, 2020, 

wasn't it? 

Nav: Yeah yeah 

Raj: And we're going to learn a bit more about you, a bit more about The Washing Machine Project.

Okay, we see you at 10 Downing Street all the time, okay? We see, I mean you got the Points of Light award. [00:02:00] Okay, which is the Prime Minister's award, you were at the King's Coronation. So you're clearly influencing the right people and people are paying notice.

And I want to touch upon this. So let's, start off. Why don't you tell the world a little bit about you, about the Washing Machine Project. Okay. And then we'll kick off to some questions.

Nav: Wow. What an introduction. Raj, thank you so much for having me on. And, I've been really excited to come on. And yeah, I really love what you guys have got going on here.

So, thank you for having me. And, I'm a massive supporter of MindHug. I think it's an amazing organisation.

I think, to talk about the Washing Machine Project,

it's really hard to sum up into a few words, but I want to try and take it back to where it all started in my childhood. And then maybe perhaps bring it into how it's taken me to where I am today. I think, this upbringing that I've had, here in [00:03:00] London actually, I was born in 

London and I was a child of parents that both have had displacement in their lives. My father was displaced during the partition. Lost everything, and my mum's parents also were displaced during the same partition.

I think the sense of loss, throughout their lives, and, throughout

Raj: just for the audience, we're talking about the India Pakistan partition,

Nav: Partition, exactly, yeah. 1947. 

 And 

Raj: we've just had Independence Day in both countries actually, 14th and 15th.

Nav: Happy Independence Day I think that, that has been passed down through to me and, definitely will be passed down to the next generation as well, that, that sense of, wow, we've lost everything.

So

that theme really ran

throughout my life and, when I switch on the news today and see displacement [00:04:00] and refugees losing everything,

I

can only, I can, it hurts. more than other things, because that's what my grandparents and my, dad went through over 70 years ago.

Raj: you also grew up in Southall, right? So that went through quite a

change in the eighties 

as well. 

 and I'm sure that kind of reinforced some of those

things that you were already seeing within the family as well.

Nav: I think it's just when you look back at it, it's inexplainable things that you couldn't really put your finger on at the time, but actually it makes sense as to why some of these behaviours took place.

Raj: And that's really interesting because that's the butterfly effect, right?

You don't know what small incident is going to manifest

Nav: have a 

knock 

on 

Raj: something bigger, right? that butterfly effect something as small as the flap of a butterflies can cause a typhoon halfway across the world.

right? 

there's a lot of that. And you don't even know if it's in this [00:05:00] generation, as we've said, some of that was happening from previous

Nav: generations.

Raj: Okay. it's, really interesting. You mentioned that, but go on. So talk about how it influenced your journey into the Washing Machine Project.

Nav: Yeah,

so that was a theme. my father was an aerospace engineer. He would, take me to airshows when I was a kid, seven, eight years old. And, I'd be obsessed with how these big objects would get into the sky. I would, I'd be inspired by that. And. And, I'd be very curious to know how things worked.

And I would take the toolbox out of the cupboard, and I would just break everything. taking apart appliances, not knowing how to put them back together. And that really pissed my mom off. and, I just really wanted to look inside, and that kind of curiosity and, figuring things out and how they worked was my engineering brain.

coming to fruition as a child, [00:06:00] which is my second theme. And my third theme is, a story of unfortunate heartbreak. My father, died overnight suddenly when I was, eight years old. And, my mom and my two sisters, raised me. so being in a single parent household, with my two sisters was a really, Really eye opening experience, and I knew growing up how hard it was for women in the household, in the communities that we were in, and how they Navigate life. And, I've

just got so much respect for them and other women that have to go through the same struggles in life. And so these three themes of displacement, engineering and women empowerment have followed me in one way, shape or form throughout my whole life.

And I went to university. I failed my first year. Which is quite interesting and I [00:07:00] graduated one of the top of my class in my last year So that transformation was very difficult but I joined one of the world's best graduate programs, and I was really just Lucky, I felt really lucky getting that job but if you fast forward three years into that role, I was really just fed up of making vacuum cleaners for rich people And, I wanted to use my skills for the betterment of humanity.

I knew that as an engineer, you can really help or hinder humanity. And I knew what side I wanted to be on. 

Raj: But I think there's a bit more than just being tired of making a washing machine for a rich person, because There was a certain level of curiosity. and there was A certain level of change you wanted. 

Nav: Yeah

Raj: But let's, delve a bit deeper into that, delve a bit deeper into washing machines, a bit deeper into change and a bit deeper into Divya as well, which is what the washing machine is called.

And [00:08:00] also the person who influenced What does change mean to you?

Nav: Yeah, I think life is change, right?

I think we're changing as we speak And I think the only inevitable in life is change and being taxed and death probably Those are the only three inevitables in life I think and if you ingrain your mindset into that then probably life is a bit better but humans and me personally,

I find it very difficult. I find changes very hard but I've always had a track record of not settling and always pushing myself outside of my comfort zone and trying to be different. I hate fitting in.

Raj: Oh, I know.

Nav: But I hate, I hate fitting in but I have spent my life trying to fit in so [00:09:00] it's a really interesting mixture of emotions there

Raj: Yeah, I remember that. And I have often introspected about this myself, about when I had my breakdown, which was obviously in some senses, the impetus to starting MindHug, once I did recover and it was exactly the same. we had these conditioned roles and responsibilities that we had to do, and I think, it's more so in the Indian community, as some of these things, seeking safety because of all the instability that

the Indian community has gone through for generations or, anyone generally, I think there was a particular feeling of needing safety, needing security, nearing, needing stability. But there was also the feeling of curiosity of what else is out there. And I think that is the underlying human condition, right?

We all seek experience. We are all curious. We're [00:10:00] born in a world. We're conscious. We seek experience and the only thing sometime that stops us from having those experiences, is a feeling of safety or a desire for safety or perceived desire and I felt that my breakdown was exactly that as well, that I was trying to fit in to a world that I wasn't giving me the experiences that I wanted.

Let's touch upon Divya here for a moment. Okay. Divya the person and Divya the washing machine. Okay, what struck you about Divya when you walked in?

Nav: I met this lady called Divya who turned out to be my next door neighbour. 

Raj: is when you were in India, right?

Nav: mean I got to India because I was fed up of making vacuum cleaners for rich people and I decided to quit my job.

 I Committed the cardinal sin. I quit my job without another job lined up and I went to go volunteer in India So I found myself moved to India with a year ahead of me [00:11:00] and Making cook stoves for people who use wood to cook their food and I met my next door neighbour. Her name is Divya Her English was amazing It was my first reaction because not many, women, especially Spoke english on the street And hers was impeccable.

She learned it in high school and This very practical person who wanted to work. but every time I asked her, why are you not working? Or if you want to work, just go and do some work. And she says, I don't have the time. and the reason why she didn't have the time was because she'd always spent hours and hours a day on unpaid labor.

She, from the moment she got up to the moment she slept, she'd, wake up at the break of dawn. And sleep really late and should just be constantly on the go constantly on the go and I think that Grit and [00:12:00] determination and hard work is just so inspiring to see Even though it's just wildly inefficient, but they're working with the tools that they have and just being very practical about it.

It's just a matter of fact. This is how I need to do it So i'll just do it But she'd always complain about muscle pain, joint pain, skin irritation, back pain when it came to hand washing clothes and I, I saw that and I thought this must change. Something has to change. Why, is it that this is the status quo?

Why is, why are people accepting this as their standard of living? and, yeah, that's when I had the conversation with Divya, I wanted to buy her an electric washing machine and she said, don't be so silly. I don't have a generator. So I don't have electricity I don't have running water all the time.

So it'll be hard to use an electric washing machine because it uses too much water and so I promised [00:13:00] her I promised her an alternative to hand washing clothes and at the time I had no clue how I was going to do that, but I felt inspired by her struggle to try and create a solution for her and then I came back home armed with that promise and I knew from that very get go that this is what I wanted to dedicate my life to and I wanted to name the machine after her the Divya washing machine

Raj: You handed her washing 

machine recently, didn't you?. 

or fairly recently? 

Nav: Yeah, so I mean if we fast forward six years, which is a fair time to fast forward over. We've now distributed, thousands of washing machines, impacted 30, 000 lives in 13 countries. I recently went back to Divya's house in April of this year. which is probably only three four months [00:14:00] ago and I I managed to give her a washing machine and it was a very emotional moment.

I came back with a few friends of mine That i've met along the way and to put it in perspective, she's probably changed the lives of many people not just mine but It was a very emotional moment. There's lots of tears, lots of laughter. And she said something very profound as we were packing up and leaving.

She said, Nav, there are millions of more women just like me around the world. Go find them because they need your support more than I do now. 

Raj: Wow, wow, but you needed to do that for yourself.. 

Nav: I needed that. 

Raj: You needed that . 

Nav: Yeah,

I think in the run up to that, I was reflecting on this just earlier today, that I took a couple of team members. We have a team [00:15:00] of 15 now And I I took a couple of team members who have really dedicated their lives to this mission as well And I was nervous at the time because I didn't know how the conversation would go how she would react and for large parts of this mission over the last six seven years people thought I was lying about the promise You but I was so glad that we got to go back and it was just so much relief on so many different levels.

Raj: Let's touch upon why the change didn't happen before the handsome man in the turban, walks in and takes over. And you've talked about, you couldn't understand she had joint pain, she had

 all of that

Why do you think change is so difficult?

Nav: Yeah, I think it's hard I often speak to many organisations [00:16:00] That have the skills and expertise to solve these issues within a year if they could But they don't because it's difficult. They have shareholders. They have product strategies they have people they have their own market fit and Divya is not in the market fit

Raj: Do you think it's as simple as that or do you think there's a psychological element here? 

Nav: Yeah, I think, so that's from a very practical level. I make a hardware product, so I think of that in that lens. But if you look at it a bit deeper, there's another ring. Divya is not a part of my life. out of sight, out of mind. The world is a big place. I'm very fixated in my own life. I haven't got time to, to think about people starving and struggling.

I'm struggling myself.

if you [00:17:00] flip it, where one us is your body. with

think if you flip it, we're not just surviving. We're thriving

Raj: Exactly. We're trying to experience. All right. That's exactly what we say at MindHug. We're trying to experience. That is all we want. there's one fundamental truth in life. That's my view. Okay. And I know you spoke about death and you spoke about change and you spoke about all of that. 

We, don't really know about beginnings and end what time is, et cetera. 

there, there's enough physics theories out there that talk about time not being fundamental. A lot of new quantum theories that are time independent. Okay. The block universe theory that talks about the past, present, future coexisting and us Navigating through it in a particular way. So we, don't really know about time or we don't know about a lot.

Yeah. Okay. But the one thing we are sure about is we are experiencing what [00:18:00] adds to that is this overabundance of stimuli and this overabundance of information that we have to Navigate to really make change Okay. And you spoke about, people struggling and you spoke about all of that. Okay. Is that something you saw? Because you've changed a lot of that change was possible. You're doing it.

Nav: hard change is hard 

Raj: yeah, right?

So I don't think, and I think you and I have spoken about it. I don't think the Washing Machine Project.

Is about the washing

Nav: No, not at all, that's just

Raj: it's about Dviya being an autopilot doing whatever she could Struggling in walks Nav on his horse, 

Nav, sees that and tells her we got you

Nav: Yeah. Yeah.

Raj: we got you

Nav: Yeah. I think, the caveat there is that, the [00:19:00] people that we, meet thousands of people now and I'm so grateful that, there's people out there that let us into their homes, give us feedback and really want to be a part of our, process when we come up with solutions.

I think that's important. I think there's a point of clarification that these people do not want sympathy. They want empathy and they want opportunity. And, I think that's really important. These people are some of the happiest people I've ever come across. And, they, don't want free handouts.

they wanna They have dignity and pride. they have a lot of pride and Dviya was one, one of those people. And I wouldn't position myself as a saviour or, I, was just at the right place at the right time. I saw this struggle. I couldn't ignore it. I had the skills and expertise, to try and fix it.

And. I also [00:20:00] have this Need to focus on this one thing. I think that's really important in this journey

Raj: 100%. And that is the human experience, right? we look at things from a commercial lens, we look at things from a money lens, but really where does the economy boil down to? It boils down to specialisation of labor. we were born in a world. We realised Nav is good with tools I'm good at baking bread. Okay. Let's, just make each other's lives easier. Somewhere along the line, it got complex because someone's good at chopping wood. Someone's good at doing other stuff. And we had to make a web that was intricate enough to allow all of this to happen. And we've somehow lost ourselves in that.

So what you've really done is come in and you've cut through all of that. And so I'm just here to do what I'm good at. Okay.

Nav: Yeah. it's very tempting to do other things and there's been so many opportunities that people have approached us with and said, have you tried this? And can you do that?

And there's this [00:21:00] problem, and then have you ever collaborated with this person? And I think in general, you'll have so much noise like that. And if, there's any advice for anyone listening or watching, I think the ability to focus, and just deliver on, The problem that you're trying to solve is probably the best piece of advice I could

Raj: Fall 

in love with the problem.

Nav: I think exactly I said that in the past a lot, which is, just Fall deeply and madly in love with the issue that you're trying to solve and just go deep on that

Raj: yeah, but look at it really from a humanistic lens, right?

Nav: Yeah, it has to 

Raj: Not just

at a surface level, right? there's a story about McDonald's, when they were releasing some sort of new range of milkshakes.

Okay. And, they struggled. They struggled initially, especially where they launched it. It's either McDonald's. I think it's McDonald's. Yeah, [00:22:00] and They try to figure out why it was not working. Okay, and it turned out that the way they were positioning themselves the people they were reaching They were trying to sell a milkshake. Okay, and what people really wanted when they walked was an emotion They're gonna be traveling You In the car for long distances, because this might've been on the highway or whatever. They needed something to take them along on that journey. And when they repositioned that they realised the problem was not really a lack of milkshake.

The problem was a lack of people having something they could take on a journey with It changed the sales altogether. Okay.

Nav: people want that experience.

Raj: People want that experience. something we keep going back to our mind. And you've alluded to it as well. At the end of the day, all we really want is

is experience. 

Nav: Good experiences, 

Raj: we can talk about how do we label experiences? Some people's experiences [00:23:00] that might be good, might be bad for someone else. there's, all those contextual things as well.

Okay

But you, what you're doing with the Washing Machine Project, giving back 75 percent of the time to over 5 billion people, well, that's the endeavour.

Nav: Wow. Yeah one day.

Raj: one day that's the endeavour.

Okay, and you're on track. I mean you're on track It's early days

Nav: We're very very small Yeah, no, not even a drop in the ocean

Raj: Everyone please get behind the Washing Machine Project Okay, I cannot vouch for them more. I'm sure you've seen the work they're doing. So please get behind so you're saving 75 of their time that gives them time to experience

Nav: experience true, Very true.

Raj: All right. you're also solving a Environmental issue of water

and they say the next world war will be fought over water You

Nav: Yeah Although that wasn't my priority. My priority was the empathy of the struggle but you know as we did more and the more the research they were struggling getting water 

Raj: Correct. 

Nav: which is you know, I think [00:24:00] it's The effort that some people get to go into to get water is just

Raj: And let's look at this from the butterfly effect, right? Okay. So you've got 75 percent of time being saved. How many hours would you say people are spending in a week? 

Nav: Up to 20 hours a week handwashing clothes

Raj: So you're giving them 75 percent of that back

Nav: Yeah, 15 hours

Raj: 15 hours 

back 

Nav: back Yeah

Raj: That's two days of work. Okay. Two days of work in the traditional sense

Nav: I have a, when I do my speeches around the world, I often ask the audience, what would you do with an extra 15 hours this week? What would you do?

Raj: Correct. And this is 15 hours that not only can you earn, but because you're not earning now, The opportunity cost is also just experience

Nav: Huge, 

Raj: Even if you go and have a good time in those 15 hours, you're, you are no worse off financially

Nav: You're not losing anything. [00:25:00] yeah, I, we, we, survey a lot and we, we try and understand our users needs and papers. And we asked this question, what would you do? And what are you doing?

And, It was a really interesting split, we have this very romantic, like lens

Raj: You are a romantic, so

Nav: We have the no, I think just in life people have very romantic lens when it comes to Giving away aid to people. They're like, oh they're gonna use this and they're gonna rest and they're gonna go to work and they're gonna go to school But actually, people just want to rest And spend time with family 

Raj: this is the whole labor market and economics. I'm an economist and the whole labor market is founded on a curve, which is, which is work versus leisure

Nav: Yeah exactly

Raj: and actually the leisure curve, it starts, increasing at a rate, at a point. Where it becomes much more valuable

Nav: True. That's so so interesting, I'd love to see 

that 

Raj: but the point is people Are not even able to get to that stage, even though they [00:26:00] might desire it because it becomes a point if we don't do this Whatever little we're experiencing Could go away as well 

Nav: Yeah, Yeah.

I I think we're seeing this in the middle class right now this expanding middle class. There's this, desire for experience At all costs, right? So that's why you see a boost in the service industry Lots of the people that I know in this you know this class this middle class, adopting services like maids and assistance and things like that to, to allow them to have time to experience things.

And I think that's, really interesting because that was seen as a upper class thing to, to adopt and use. And now that's seeping into the middle, growing middle class.

Raj: And that also goes back to how we define experiences as well. 

Nav: True, 

Raj: Walking down the river is as pleasurable for me as, as, [00:27:00] going to Disneyland.

 Right? It's just we've associated a particular level of value to Disneyland over walking down a river.

Nav: Yeah. I always find, I think it was quite an interesting experiment during Covid where actually we, a lot of people struggled and it was very tragic for many people.

But like I, there were times where I really enjoyed being at home, doing nothing, because there was no expectation to, do anything else. Everyone was denied the same experience. So it's, there's an equity in everything, whereas when we open our phones and scroll through social media, people are having different experiences, which makes you inferior to them.

Raj: Yeah. but that's because we, do as human beings, Tend to judge our own reality based on other people's reality.

Nav: Correct,

Raj: Okay. But the fact of the matter is, and this is something we show in a lot of the workshops we do, that it's not only our psychological and emotional realities that are different, but even our actual physical realities terms of how we [00:28:00] perceive the world, colour, taste, everything is actually very, different.

Yeah, 

But then the interesting thing is in a lot of people in the West,

Nav: Yeah.

Raj: when they're living in the commercial hubs, are like, I just want to go and find a patch of land somewhere secluded

Nav: It's the opposite,

Raj: and live that life, right?

the funny thing is we're judging each other on our different realities.

And it becomes very interesting at that

point.

 there's a, huge. Level of, positives that can come out of that as well in terms of what Washing Machine Project is doing, you, saw the pain and you knew the pain you felt at one point and you were able to change that.

but from a psychological perspective, there's also a lot of downsides that come with that and that's something we need to be mindful of. it's something that we, we, put front and centre in the mind, our approach, which is understanding the assumptions that are shaping your reality [00:29:00] and especially because you mentioned this as well, this, abundance of information,

Nav: Yeah.

Raj: this is abundance of information , and the way you process that information is completely based on your assumptions, which are completely environmental

Nav: yeah just getting here. I probably ran past and shoved like five or six people because I was running late and I had to jump in a meeting and That was just my circumstance and my reality at the time and I probably spoiled many realities Today 

Raj: but 

you were acting in autopilot at that point that's the point and I think people need to realise that in all of our realities which are individual, have different autopilot responses as well Okay? We think that we live . The same reality. And we think we have the same autopilot responses in those realities.

and, human beings, as we know, heuristics and economics is taught over and over again, and politics as well.

but also in psychology, we, learn about shortcuts, [00:30:00] right? We use shortcuts to, to process this

Nav: Yeah.

Raj: And sometimes in processing using shortcuts, we shut down rational thinking.

Nav: True. it's when you're on autopilot, you blinkers on tunnel vision.

Raj: Let's just go back to Washing Machine Project for a moment here, okay? . compared to when we first met you're getting a lot of attention, right?.

Nav: The team are doing a great job.

Raj: They are, they are, and so are you, and, you're always traveling, I think last time you sent me a message from 60, 000 feet above or whatever it was. and, you left Dyson, a leading engineering company. You now have an engineering company. Or a washing machine company electronics company behind you supporting, the Washing Machine Project.

Nav: I left an engineering company to create my own, humanitarian engineering company.

I think, Everyone wears clothes. Everyone has to wash them. And everyone [00:31:00] doesn't like doing that. It's a chore. And for some people it's harder than others. And I think it's just a very universal thing. And I'm lucky that this is a solution. Or this is a problem that is, that touches many, everyone across the world.

And, It's easy to explain. I cannot explain to you AI or ar augmented reality. I can't explain to you, you 

Raj: you did a pretty good job last time discussing AI

Nav: I cannot explain to you these interesting, startups that have really complex products, but I can explain to you that. Today, there will be, over a billion families that have to go to a river, stream, or wash on the floor with buckets, using cold water, causing back pain, joint pain, and skin [00:32:00] irritation.

And I think that's such a clear value proposition of where we can help, which is probably pretty universal.

Raj: Yeah, firstly, can you also find a solution to that missing sock that goes on in the washing

machine as well?

I don't know where my socks, I put in two, one comes out,

So if

if you can find a solution to that as well, that will be great. Yeah, I'm sure there's an, there's a mountain of missing socks lying somewhere.

Yeah, so, if you find them, let me know as well. Okay. Yeah. 

Nav: It's like a hole.

Raj: Black hole.

Nav: Yeah, A black

Raj: Two go in, one comes out. Yeah. Okay. Okay. But, but I think it's a little bit. More than that. It's not just about washing clothes. It's not just about it's you know, people get it this I think

Nav: I think there's a point of storytelling. I really, we have a new start in the team, social media manager. And I said, I was introducing them to, to the Washing Machine Project and I was taking them through the process. Presentations and videos and [00:33:00] this person started crying when I showed this video and I was like, you know this feeling that you're getting right now This is the feeling That we need to tell the world and show the world that this is how you move people and I think for me personally conveying Divya's message and Divya struggles is what I do every single day and I just The storytelling piece is so important in our line of work and how people struggle and how people can benefit from our solution.

 And, it's a continuing art.

Raj: it's an art that you haven't only use traditional things to do. the traditional way people generally, it's not, there's no right or wrong, but the traditional way, a lot of people say that a business like you, a social impact business should be storytelling is using emotion and you do use emotion, don't get me wrong, but you do also use humour, 

right? Like

you trying to wash Boris Johnson's shirt. You

Nav: . 21, yeah.

Raj: [00:34:00] you taking your clothes off, was it, did you take your clothes off and wash them at Trafalgar Square? 

Nav: My socks, 

Raj: yeah you took socks out yeah? Probably one of those, my socks, probably lying there, who knows, yeah? But, you did that, then you also went to the Thames,

Nav: True.

Raj: and there's a few other funny things like that which you've done. So you're actually engaging with the full human experience of comedy, emotion, all of it together. And I think that's working,

Nav: Yeah. I think as an entrepreneur or someone that, started this organisation, I just want to do more and speak to more people and I just feel like We're not there yet.

But we just continually have to find innovative ways to get to them and some of them you've, mentioned. And I think. You know in this information age cutting through the noise and getting to the hearts of people And moving them in any way shape or form you can then that's probably the best way

Raj: cutting through that noise in a very humanistic lens, right? [00:35:00] You don't have to. Be a woke left wing, emotional kind of person. we're all humans, we, like humour, we like banter, we like all of that. And, you gotta, bring all of that.

all of that, right? 

Nav: Yeah. It's surprising how unifying the Project is. We have supporters from the right wing, the left wing, the centre. And all walks of life. It's amazing if they only knew what the Washing Machine Project doesn't and where they distribute.

it was interesting. I think back in 2020 2019 one of our first ever articles was talking about was done by the daily mail talking about our distributions to Iraqi refugee camps And this is a historically quite a right wing newspaper And I think it's interesting that you said that

Raj: It's also very interesting that people automatically have these biases about left wing and right wing

And I think innately everyone does want to help people I think they come at it from different realities, different perspectives, [00:36:00] and what happens is we don't judge them on

On their reality, I mean there's I keep mentioning this study There's studies done that when you ask people for help irrespective of their ideology race gender you're actually doing them a favour by asking for

help,

Nav: True.

My mum always says that. You might never deny the opportunity to make someone feel useful, because you might just make their day.

Raj: we're innately programmed for that

right probably

reason we probably cannot do that sometimes is, as you said, we have this overabundance of information and we're just trying to get by,

we're just 

tired as you said, right?

And we just don't have the ability to think. So actually, when someone doesn't help, strangely, it's more an indication of their wellbeing rather than it being an issue about them not wanting to help

kind 

of thing 

 and that brings me to Very nicely into the next question, because you, and I've chatted [00:37:00] about this and you came out on a podcast recently and said, this, spoke about ADHD.

Nav: Yeah that was actually the first time I ever spoke about I was surprised about how many people were interested in that By the way full disclaimer I'm not diagnosed with it, but i'm very sure

that I have it, and I only realised that in recent times, And I'm, interested to know why I haven't gone to the doctor to diagnose it

Raj: entrepreneurs are, as we know, 11 times more likely to have neurodivergence than non-entrepreneurs Okay. and it's a superpower as well 

Nav: Oh, yeah massive

Raj: So it's not,

Nav: Yeah

I first realised that I there's something wrong in my mind when I just physically could not concentrate on anything for a longer period of time that some things I wasn't interested in so When i'm trying to read something I don't particularly like my mind will drift off [00:38:00] automatically after the second sentence And I'd just find myself drifting off, and it was only when I became really close to friends outside of my family group that they said, are you okay?

That's, not normal 

Raj: we just had a conversation about this before, right? You asked me a question and you didn't even wait me, wait for me to answer. You just went on to

to.

 but that's humour. I see humour in that and, there's obviously an element of neurodivergence.

The story, you know that I tell people very often about You and I is when I sent you that message, should we catch up for dinner?

Nav: Oh yeah.

Raj: And w didn't hear back two months later. You say, yeah, let's do

Nav: But

Raj: like, bud, it's been two months. All right. so what are you doing for your mental wellbeing and wellbeing generally, cause it's all linked.

Nav: Yeah, I think, you know when you're when you're so engrossed into a mission, [00:39:00] and also a good mission, that has positive impact in the world, you just want, it's like a drug, you want to do more of it.

but this is a marathon, not a sprint, and a marathon is 26. 2 miles, and I think we're on mile one, so there's still a long, way to go, and I want to be here at mile 26. 2, still with the same amount of energy. And I think I learned that earlier on, into the entrepreneurship journey.

And, I have a great team now, so I can, travel less, even though it's still a lot, we can spread those, responsibilities. And I think for me, keeping myself humble and still. When i'm not on the move with the people that I love And I care Around me. I think for me.

That's the best feeling in the world

Raj: [00:40:00] And like I said, right at the beginning, when you walked into the BBC studio with that blue drum and a scissor cut it door. And now when you walk in with the latest model and you had those interim models as well, it's the same story. It's the same Nav, and that's, really good to see.

And I think that also is the reason you're able to influence people as well. And.

Nav: Yeah maybe it's an imposter syndrome, but I wouldn't say that I am an influencer or influencing people.

I, I just want to make sure people like Divya have access to an alternative to hand washing clothes.

Raj: But you have, do you have to live at 30, 000 machines?

Nav: We have yeah impacted 30 000 people. Yeah, and we want to do way more so

Raj: you've got Whirlpool behind you.

Nav: Whirlpool Foundation

yeah 

Raj: got them behind you. I just want to touch upon that influencing skill. All right.

 Imposter syndrome aside, all entrepreneurs have imposter syndrome

we all have it. What do you think [00:41:00] is your secret power or the washing machine's secret power, storytelling aside

that has enabled you to influence people the way you've influenced them

Nav: The power of community, I think, one of my team members, told me this story and he said that this is exactly how you operate, which is, it's about this old man who, Needs to find the ingredients to, to bake a cake. And he knocks on the door of the first house and says, Do you have any flour?

Says no. The first house says no. You go on to the second house. The, Second house says, yeah, we have flour. But we want to come with you and see if you get any eggs. And then you knock on the third door and no one's there. And the fourth door and the fifth door and sixth door someone has [00:42:00] one egg and, but they want to say they want to come on the journey too.

And I feel like, I have the ability to, bring people on the journey and to build a community of people that are also equally as passionate about solving this problem. It

Raj: It sounds a bit like the Jago ceremony in a Punjabi wedding, where you take that pot and you go around knocking on people's doors, asking for flour and eggs, and then the whole village starts coming with you,

Nav: Correct. Yeah, I feel like it does take a village For these types of things and I think I learned that very early on that. I can't do it alone And there are people in the world that are equally as frustrated in their day jobs as I was And they want to help And I ask for their help and We continue to ask for their help every stage every single day ask

Raj: so before we get onto where Washing Machine Project is going and that's, that will be probably where we'll end this, but

Nav: Hmm

Raj: have there been any [00:43:00] misses or near misses that you look back at and say, I don't know why I did that or why I didn't do that.

Nav: didn't do that?

 And I really do give the benefit of the doubt to the people that we work with. And very early on, we took on a R and D engineering consultant and, they really messed us around. they delayed the, washing machine projects design by six months, didn't deliver and. And by the end of the six months, we, had nothing.

And then they held us to ransom with what they did have. And,

Raj: When you say held you to ransom do you mean they said we'll give you this 

Nav: yeah, we'll give you, unless you

Raj: But that wasn't a complete product anyway. Yeah. No, we've had issues like

Nav: Yeah, and I think, that was very early on into the journey. I think it was in year one or [00:44:00] year two. And in hindsight, I felt like we did everything that we could.

We got testimonials from other people that used the service. we did multiple, calls with this person before we instructed them to do anything. But I feel with a bit more experience, I might have went to go visit them before we paid for the service, and there's other things that we could have done, but Yeah, I think those luckily at that time we could pivot and Find time to do other things I think if that happened now, we would really That'd be really bad

Raj: but then you do also have all this other support now

Nav: Correct. Yeah, and loads of people that have got way more experience than I have And I always revert back to them because I don't have The skills and expertise to do this at scale. Yeah. But I know people that do.

Raj: [00:45:00] Yeah, Steve Jobs said that we don't hire good people to tell them what to do We hire good people though, so they can tell us what to do But they need to be aligned with your vision your mission So very often good people come in consultants

 who think they are and they probably are they know a lot more about the space, but they just aren't aligned with the vision They're aren't aligned with what you're trying to achieve.

So They can be the best at what they do But if they're not delivering it in the direction that you want to take it, it's it's it's not worth it

Nav: Mm 

Raj: where does Washing Machine Project go from here now?

Nav: I think we're still very small there's 30, 000 people that we've positively impacted.

There's still 5 billion people that, don't have access to electric washing machine. So the gap between where we are now and. The overall end goal is so astronomically huge But yeah in the interim [00:46:00] we're hoping to Manufacture closer to the users that we distribute to That's going to require a whole set of skills and expertise and I think in 10 20 years time when I come back On the on the MindHug podcast and I talk about our mission vision.

We'll be laughing at the time we only made washing machines. 

Raj: no, absolutely. but just, on that, you do recognise the journey you've been on, right? 

Nav: My family keep me so humble. I remember the time Where I was, invited to the Prime Minister's coronation lunch. And I was having lunch with so many interesting people on, at 10 Downing Street, on the street. And my WhatsApp family group was buzzing and it was because my, , Nephew said his first words and they couldn't care less the fact [00:47:00] that I was at 10 Downing Street and they've lost so much interest in the next news feature.

All they care about is my happiness and our family's happiness and they'll be here. After the Washing Machine Project, they were here before and I think that's so important, to be grounded.

Raj: and you spoke about humbleness and that's something I've always seen in you. and it's something I tell a lot of entrepreneurs that sometimes you have to force it, right? It's, hard to get carried. it's easy to get carried away rather

in

in, in the life you're living as an entrepreneur.

and what that does is then you start getting. You start getting your drug from the validation rather than the work

Nav: Yeah. We do this all the time where, it's maybe unappreciative, but I'm really not interested in the good feedback about a product.

I, literally just filter on the bad feedback [00:48:00] because that's, where you get your improvements from not in the echo chamber of how well you're doing.

Raj: and, with a lot of these things, you don't even have to believe it half the time. You just have to force yourself, because otherwise the mind just becomes its own master, doesn't it, really? And takes you in that route.

 the whole concept of visualisation, et cetera, that people talk

about. Yeah,

it's really just training the mind.

Nav: Yeah. I have a very good friend who is a visualisation expert. Maya who talks about the slot and I've picked it up and I think it's very powerful.

Raj: We look at this from a kind of a confirmation bias perspective

if you keep telling yourself something, you become that

thought, right? And

so even if you don't believe it, if you keep telling yourself something

that's what your mind will start focusing on. So sometimes if you find yourself going in a direction you're not happy about as a person, but you see yourself.

Going that way because it's like a drug to [00:49:00] you. Sometimes you have to push back and almost force yourself to say the opposite, Yeah, Okay. So last question on the information, because you just mentioned information, I was going to bring it up, but you mentioned filtering through that information.

Nav: Yeah.

Raj: What is the way you filter through that information so you can focus on Opportunity and not focus on what we started towards the, not started, but towards the beginning, we spoke about survival just being all over the place. How does Nav filter through all that noise to focus on the opportunity?

Nav: I can, it's just today, so we have some really pressing priorities, and there's just loads happening at once, but we always have to just focus on one thing at one time, and I'm getting better at it. Before I had this massive FOMO and I was just worried about missing the [00:50:00] opportunity. But I think it's a bit easier when you're a bit settled and you have backing, multiple years of backing.

So you have the luxury of saying, actually no, this is the number one priority.

Raj: That safety net, 

Nav: A safety net. I think trying to find your safety net is, the best way to, to

Raj: which is, the fundamental premise of MindHug, which is before you can go into understanding and reframing and experiencing,

Nav: Yeah.

Raj: you have to know you've got that safety right? That's why this podcast is called We Got You. Good place to end. Good place to end. 

One, final giveaway for the audience, people who will be listening. That one piece of book, the one book, the one soundtrack, the one playlist, anything that helped you through a significant period of change, positive or challenging.

Nav: For me, yeah, I have bought this book over 60 times For friends and family [00:51:00] around the world. I also the book has a quiz that I do in some of my keynote speeches With the audiences around the world and it's a book that's changed my life and my outlook on life and it's a book that Really addresses the biases that we have when it comes to data And interpreting data and what people are really truly going through.

And it's called Factfulness by Hans Rosling.

Raj: Cool. thanks for coming on ‘We Got You’, Nav. It's been great. Any parting words or good to go?

Nav: Fall in love with the problem because the solution will always change.

Raj: but go down to the bottom layer of that the human layer

Raj: , cool. Perfect Nav. thank you for your time and all the best to Washing Machine Project Please everyone support the Washing Machine Project. They're doing great work and they need all the support they can get.

Nav: Thank you very much, Raj [00:52:00]