In Conversation With - Daria Illy: Coffee Culture Director of illycaffè

Join MindHug CEO Chitraj (Raj) Singh on the MindHug podcast series on change, as he engages in a thought-provoking conversation with Daria Illy: Coffee Culture Director of illycaffè and CEO of Mitaca.

In this episode, they explore the rich history of illy coffee and its legacy of innovation, discuss the modern day benefits of multi-tasking vs. single-tasking, and share actionable ideas for creating a brighter future.

Transcript

(Intro)

Raj: Daria Illy. On the board of Illy Coffee and the CEO of Mitaca.

Daria: Innovation comes from having that boldness to make the change. And that’s where Illy was totally crazy.

Raj: Conflict costs workplaces £1000 in the UK per employee.

Daria: We need your very conscious way of seeing human beings in life, which I hope we can spread with the MindHug model.

Raj: The MindHug SURE Model: Safety, Understanding, Reframing and Experience. How do we get people to understand and get them the information to make them feel safe?

—

Raj: Welcome everyone to our series of change at MindHug. 'We Got You' - our podcast series on change. So today with me is very special guest, Daria Illy. she is first and foremost on the board of MindHug. So welcome, Daria. But more crucially, the reason she is on our series of change is because her life's been about change.

Her ancestry has been about change as well. So Illy Coffee. That black liquid that everyone has every morning, the first thing to get them out of bed. The reason we have it today, a lot of that boils down to what I call the first family of coffee, which is Illy coffee. And Daria will talk to us about that and how, there was a whole concept of change and, that, that actually underpins this because people always associate [00:01:00] Illy coffee as one of those Italian brands, right? But there is, it's, the story is actually traced back to Hungary, right? So we're going to talk about that, but more crucially in your journey, Daria, you also went on and did a lot of work, presumably on, not presumably, you did a lot of work on nutrition and coffee science, and that also taught you a lot about how human beings use nutrition, which is a kind of information, to help, help them change and develop, in ways that they need to develop.

So I want to talk about that. And then I want to talk about your more recent, guys as obviously not only as on the board of Illy coffee, but also, as, a CEO of Mitaca, and also as a coach and someone who's very big into diversity and inclusion and empowerment.

I'm going to get you to introduce yourself as well in a moment. But before we do that, what does change mean to you, Daria?

Daria: I [00:02:00] Remember, when I started to work for a bigger company and not anymore as an entrepreneur, on my own with a few collaborators, the first thing I said is, “Please can I not do the same road to get to work every day? Can I have a job where I am needed in many places with many different cultures?” So change is about variety.

Some people, there's this famous book from Edward de Bono ‘Who stole my cheese?’ I'm born to change. I define myself like, are you Italian? I don't know. Where'd you live? I don't know. My house is on my back like snails. I think change is, is exciting because it always moves you from a comfort zone.

Sometimes it's a change in [00:03:00] better, apparently, and sometimes it's the change which brings you to test yourself in a different way. So I've always. I always embrace change, maybe because of a cultural fit with this, or because I really think that's when you can… I have this stupid challenge with myself every day.

I need to do something every day, at least one thing, which either I never did, or somehow scares me, or I loathe, like I hate that thing. I gotta do one of these things every day. Probably comes out from my roots and the discipline that Austro-Hungarian family gave to me. But that's my way to, to think of life.

If I could change You know, also the attachment towards material things. I could change house, wardrobe, everything. I wouldn't change my kids, of course, but I could easily change almost anything if I knew that this was for [00:04:00] the best in my mission in life or in the trace that I need to live. So change is growth.

Raj: Yeah, change is growth. I buy that. And the thing that you just said right now, that try something different right now, we have the MindHug rule of one, Which is just do something, because the mind cannot distinguish between the idea of something and the actual thing, right?

Because the mind uses shortcuts as we call it. So the only way you can actually train your mind to not deal with the idea of a thing and to actually deal with the actual experience, which is actually what's going to give you meaning in life. A not the fear that comes with the idea is you have to do it.

Otherwise the mind cannot distinguish between the idea and the thing.

Daria: And one thing I forgot about is it's a luxury for us to decide to change. When you get lost and you don't know what you want, it traces back to the first [00:05:00] era of Robbins, which I think we all know as coaches, Anthony Robbins. When you stop understanding what you want and what you need, that's when you get lost and you get frozen, and you cannot change anymore.

So change will definitely have a harder time walking towards you. Coelho says “When you really want something, the whole universe will be in a chorus for you to have that thing.” But this is about willpower. It's not only about magic, the law of attraction or magnetic field, however you want to call this.

So, being so lucky to have the chance to change, is already luxury. But the point is tracing back is how do we check up upon ourselves? Do I still know where I'm going? Do I still know [00:06:00] what I want to do now?

Am I sure of my principles? Cause they change. They change continuously in life. They're never the same. Our values change and the actions that we need to do to get to satisfy those values and our personal success, they rotate. So that self checkup that should be done. Periodically, when you forget about that, then is the moment where you might get into a change which you wouldn't want to achieve or which you're unsure of.

That's when you drop into things. That's when life decides for you and you're not deciding for yourself. Because that's the point. If you don't decide, something else will,

Raj: So let's talk about, before we get into the Robbins model, because you just touched upon that. And I want to get into that in a moment as well. And I want to then use that as a model to also, and actually not use that as a model. Use the what I call the model that [00:07:00] we have at MindHug, the SURE model. Which as you know: Safety, Understanding, Reframing and Experience, but before we do that, do you want to just tell the listeners, they heard it from me, do you just want to tell the listeners about your life story a little bit?

Daria: Yeah, thank you. You did a nice, you rolled out so many things that I thought, Oh, God, am I so old I did so many things, or did I have a condensed life? I actually started working when I was 18, to be able to pay at least the gasoline in my car. I took three degrees. I used to be a professor at university.

I'm a teacher. I work at school. I am a manager. I'm an owner of part of a big company. I do detergents. I'm an actor and I'm a model sometimes. 

Raj: You're shooting a film right now. we should, Hollywood style film, right? Which is going to be on the red carpet. So we do have, [00:08:00] we do have Hollywood style actresses in the MindHug family well. Yeah.

Daria: No, not yet. Not yet. Not yet. We'll see, but it will be presented in Venice next year

 And, and it's been great to be part of this. and this is one of the things. That happened, but I can tell you that I had 16 years of one career, and it's always been dedicated to improve other people's lives somehow. I had this magnet on my fridge. It says, to teach is to touch a life Now, I would not be so self referential to say I'm a teacher. I am a professor, I have the titles, but a teacher is like a leader. You will remember what someone says when his charisma or his way to project the message to the audience [00:09:00] is so impactful that you'll never forget it.

It's not about how much you studied. my son is a born businessman. At eight years old, when I was a CEO in Mitaca, he asked me, “so how many capsules per day does that line produce?” I said, “are you a monster, man?”

He had a hard time doing two plus six in school. And we know how many American CEOs have dyscalculia. Now this is a new term for saying we're f***ing lazy. We don't care about algebra. We're on proportions. We all, we're all distorted somehow. 

Raj: I actually want you to talk about that. I actually want you to talk about that because this boils down to information, the abundance of information we have and how we can use it to our benefits as well. So, go on, actually, this is a good, this is a good time to talk about

Daria: Yeah, this is the point. Everything is [00:10:00] very fast, extremely fast. And our, the generations now, and we just We're just, we just rode that wave where we still saw a cabin and a phone, but these guys haven't. For them it's ancient history and everything was so quick. we used to say that multitasking is a Must for SEO.

Hell no! We need to single task and nobody can do it anymore. We're done with multitasking, It's over. It's not trendy. It's, like a bad word. We need to start single-tasking again, we cannot. Cause when you do that thing and you think you're so smart that your phone is in focus mode. Okay, there's someone else's phone, which is going to ring or there's WhatsApp on your phone that's working with your computer, which you forgot [00:11:00] you had connected to. So something's always going to happen. It's, a mindset thing. And this brings me back to the last pages of my new history. After 16 years being a teacher, a coach, a nutritionist, a personal trainer, an entrepreneur, I went to work for this big company, I met my grandfather, and a series of things happened together, and they made a change, which was really hard for me, because I was proposed to start in this company with what I'd Actually, usually achieved in a weekend.

And I said, man, is this serious? this, I'll get this in one month? I gained this in a weekend? Are you sure? Did you look at my CV? And it was very hard. But it was so interesting. Because I job rotated through the company. And I gave heart, soul, and blood again. For [00:12:00] another 16 years. Then what happened is that I decided that I was mad at time, wanting me to be his slave.

And I said, no, I've been an entrepreneur. I'm writing books. I'm a spokesperson. I did this score. I had this bonus. I had this achievement. So what's your next step? And I told myself, Daria, your next step is to make small changes, which will last in time. And my original plan was to be with my kids when they would turn 13 or 14, and this would be, we cannot all afford it.

But what I told myself is, I love to clean. I make my own detergents. I'm not scared to go clean stairs, but to see my kids in their eyes every time they come home. To have. one [00:13:00] cake at the end of the year. And I think they're happy. I, they tell me you're the best mom in the world. And this is the only thing I needed from life to give me.

So the point is I wanted time to be my slave and this is why I changed again. And I want it to be a service at service and a different way to the world, to my kids, to, to culture, to my next degree, To anything that can really lead to a small change, but that I can decide every day how to drive.

Now, did this work? No, it's worse than before. It's worse than before. So do not think I'm a good example. It's working now after two years, but being alone and setting your own schedule holy God, so difficult. And especially, as you were saying, [00:14:00] you get attracted by so many things. And I have noted, I noticed how much I went worse in time.

Where did I really make a difference? I think I made a difference. The Christmas day, when I asked my guys to work and not be with their families, and I f***ing drove four hours to get to Milan and give them panettone and tell them, you're doing something wonderfully well, and you sacrificed your time because of a miscommunication and an over demand, and I really thank you because you're on a mission.

and then I drove back. That day, I collected so many, fast driving, fines that I think one month of a monthly wage will [00:15:00] not be enough to, pay all those fines. Because I had to be back home to my kids

Raj: So that's a couple of very interesting points there. so, firstly, you talked about the miscommunication. That made people work on Christmas when they shouldn't have been working on Christmas, that drove some of your desire for change. but you realise that in the moment itself and drove down to give them, the Christmas treats.

so, you, did do that. There is something you mentioned, which is very interesting. and you and I have chatted about this, about, multitasking versus single tasking, and I, think. what we need to clarify we're not telling everyone to live a uni dimensional life, right?

We're saying, in fact, you need more variety in your life so that you can actually, Develop neurons that can actually help you deal with a variety of things where we have an abundance of information now. But what we are saying is expecting to do all of those various things in a [00:16:00] workforce can be very demanding.

and so much so that you actually don't have energy to actually do the diversity of experiences that you need in a real life to actually develop as a human being. and I think that's, that's an important distinction to make, over here because people will be listening, thinking they just have to do one thing in life.

In fact, we're saying the complete opposite. we're saying, saying need to do a lot in life, but wasting all your energy at just multitasking at work. So you have no energy to do anything outside of work is not the way to do it.

Daria: Exactly, in my neurodiversity, I have this problem with perfectionism. And I think the post COVID, really stimulated this. 74 percent of the population worldwide had a burnout.

Okay, so how do we, how did we all get out of this? We have this big recitement time. So how do we give ourself a rule? As you say, single task is. For [00:17:00] every task, let's not do one thing. Single task on that task. And, sometimes, stop and smell the roses. I saw the difference compared to where I'm living now.

I can see the sea. But I've lived on a, in a house with a view, when I used to be a full time manager, for two years, I think I never even looked at it. I hardly sit down. because I am impatient. I am, time is never enough. I'm not rich, so I don't have a thousand people to whom I ask it. Can you do this or that for me?

Or can I have this or the other thing? And I like to do stuff. Once upon a time, we had to prove ourself being efficient by doing so much in a small amount of time. I think that now, or. Like you were saying, the less is [00:18:00] more concept is, can you go in depth to do one little thing of all the piece of cake?

But the point is, how in depth can you go with everything? And how motivated are you to do that

Raj: Yeah, so I think that's an interesting point there because, I think the problem right now We are used to going in depth, but we're not used to the amount of information we have right So we expect that we're going to go in depth into everything. And as a result, we're overwhelmed, right?

Because we can't do that conceivably, but when we start doing something else we get pulled because we're like, we haven't done that thing well. Okay. And then going back to your, your Robbins model, which, also goes back to the MindHug SURE model. You get into the state of. Freeze because you're like scared.

You aren't doing anything right. There's a saying that we have in MindHug, which we, use [00:19:00] a lot. Life is lived in the pauses.

Okay. Life is not lived in every moment because in most moments we're working from autopilot. Life is only lived in the pauses. Right and you don't have those pauses because you know the numbers we use that we have more data in the last two years Okay, then all of human existence before that Okay, and we're dealing with this data in the same way as we've dealt with everything in the past But the whole paradigm has shifted.

Okay, but we think we can still deal with the ocean of information the same way as we've dealt with it in the past So maybe it's a good time for me to also. Talk about the MindHug SURE model, which obviously you know about being on MindHug, which is again, just to reiterate for the listeners, safety, understanding, reframing and experience.

And our whole emphasis is that we, look, use shortcuts and there's a reason for it, right? Because it goes, it traces back to, time, in Memorial when, [00:20:00] we, You said you were a slave to time, right? We've always been slaves to time more so now than we were in the past, but we had to have adaptability built into us to actually deal with the time.

And one of the adaptabilities we developed was using shortcuts or heuristics, which is using bits of information to actually figure out what we want to do, which is why, for instance, in politics, people don't necessarily take a lot of interest in finding out what the policies are or changing their family political party, because it's easy to do that.

And it keeps them safe to having to do that. So we use shortcuts and because we use shortcuts, we have automatic responses to And very often the shortcuts we use are threat based shortcuts, right? So it's like we had a Sabre-Tooth tiger. And when we saw a Sabre-Tooth tiger back in the day, we would basically To remove all energy from all key parts of the body and focus on getting away from that Sabre-Tooth tiger.

But that's happening again in today's world. And that means our [00:21:00] rational side of our mind shuts down. And only when we actually find this safety, can we actually understand why certain things are happening? It's not biologically possible to understand these things when you're in acting from autopilot and shortcuts based on right?

And then you have to reframe it. And then, as you said, you have to have those experiences to actually. Show the mind. Which is that these assumptions are not helpful. And these are the assumptions we need in So using that as a basis, Daria, and using, your training as a coach, why do you think change is so difficult in the world today in the corporate world, in the organisational world?

Daria: You circled back in your excellent Raj style as usual, 

but, 

Raj: I try. 

Daria: Not everyone has, you're very, we call this consciousness, you're very self conscious. And [00:22:00] I think that people need to be, to start speaking this language more. You said three things based on our model, which is the SURE model.

You said change, you said data, you said pause. Now, the way to circle this back is, Not to do more of the same, you need to try to understand what are you doing and how are you doing it This is why in most of the companies who call themselves B Corps or ethical companies or whatever, there's no HR manager, there's no growth.

People, are not nurtured. This is why companies are basically dying. this is why we only work from everywhere. This is why there's no office anymore. This is why we have, black swans and green swans Because we act flat, as you say, the autopilot, because we stopped asking [00:23:00] ourselves questions.

So that famous check that we need to do upon us. I think it's even harder for people who don't have responsibility for other people, or communities, or kids. Because then you really don't owe anyone something, unless you're really an aspirational person. consciousness leads to be brave enough. To ask yourself the right questions, to make the change, and to pause to give yourself the right answer.

And that's when you can start again being safe, and reframe, and give everything a root, a sense. Even if it's, okay, I'm frozen, I'm gonna stay frozen for a bit, let me freeze. I never froze in my life, can I freeze? For, freaking one week, can I freeze? you're talking to yourself. You're [00:24:00] listening to yourself Which we don't have time for anymore. Which leads to the model of the autopilot and the flat solution And the problem solving, which we read on the perfect manager's book. Which doesn't work anymore. Because artificial intelligence will just blow everything except one thing that we need to model very well before we leave it and that is the way to treat human beings and that's what we used to call HR.

Now they're fancy called the happiness manager. They became a centre of cost which talks to the CFO and just exchange numbers and stuff to each other. But where's the growth in people? How are we Really giving a sign for a company to live for a long time. And this is not a humanistic or a very generous way of my thinking This drills down [00:25:00] to the basics of the economics that you see at the end of the year. You don't care about your people. They're not going to care about your strategy. Their pace is going to slow down because they're not motivated. They don't believe in what you're doing. They're going to drop their pen at five.

And it goes back to your very conscious way of seeing human beings and life, which I hope that we can spread.

The more and the better with the MindHug model and with The fact itself of building a model over taking care of other people, of understanding that people need help and they need it now because now they realise it and maybe tomorrow they won't. They'll go into autopilot again.

Raj: And that's important, right? Tomorrow they won't realise it. And. That's why you, need external people to do that because once you're an autopilot, you're an autopilot, you can't come out of autopilot. That's the whole definition of autopilot. [00:26:00] and the problem is, and here's a very, interesting challenge.

And you talk about HR, and when we have this statistic left, and centre on our, webpage, Daria, that, conflict costs. Workplaces a thousand pounds in the UK per employee, just conflict. Forget about anything else. Okay. We're losing a thousand pounds per employee in the UK just because of conflict.

Okay. And the whole purpose of the whole reason in my head for conflict is whether it's personal or interpersonal is the fact everyone assumes we're not on autopilot. So we just keep putting. Everyone else into threat mode and everyone goes into autopilot and we're not able to break it because we assume people are not an autopilot.

Someone who is seeing someone's autopilot threat response will react in a threatened way. Okay. Reaffirm that person's threatening, threat response. They will then [00:27:00] threaten the next person or the same person who, was initially triggered and the threat response just continues. Okay, so so in order for this to change you actually do need Outside help.

You do need very simple solutions. You need people to understand the information that people have access to. And everything is information. We've spoken about this. Yeah. The human experience is all about information, food, DNA, whatever you look at, whether it's data, food, DNA, anything, that's, all information that we're trying to process a right?

So you do need that outside support to come in and get people out, out of that autopilot mode who understand that there’s an autopilot.

Daria: Yeah, definitely. You need that, signal to help you stop and raise your head and see,

Raj: Correct.

Daria: where was I going? Why?

Raj: correct.

Daria: Sometimes that's a shake, no?

Raj: Yeah,

Daria: Comes from people, it comes from a sentence, it comes from a music, [00:28:00] it comes from a smell, it comes from, places where we wouldn't expect sometimes, no? It comes from a memory.

Raj: and, talking about smell, we know for a fact, one of the most comforting smells, at least, at least in many parts of the world where, coffee is popular is the smell of coffee in the morning, right? Because it, you associate it with something comforting, right? And we've seen this discussions, you have over a cup of coffee.

are, better. Then if you had it without a cup of coffee, why do people have dates over coffee, because it's it's just triggering that happy place and it's not only coffee. Coffee is a much more recent association we can go back to the genetic associations or why we find lavender calming and we've done that Done plenty of research on this at MindHug, which is, lavender, was, something we used to keep snakes and scorpions and other, other threats away.

So we were genetically programmed to feel safe when we smell lavender and that's been passed down genetically [00:29:00] Which by the way, is another shortcut, right? Genes are another shortcut as well. So the question is, how do we get people to understand that we're processing and actually get them the information to make them feel safe?

Daria: we don't, I, don't think we can be, Processing everything and you just made the right example. No, this is a, the cognitive side of things that we smell and they take us into a safe place. Coffee for some cultures family waking up, being social,

 and it starts from the experience of your smell and the sight and, the touch and, then what happens into you. It might be placebo. Okay. Studies tell us that things happen in your brain and your body 

Raj: there's nothing wrong with placebo, right? There's nothing wrong 

Daria: Exactly.

Yes.

Raj: we look at, placebo at MindHug as epigenetics, right? We look at [00:30:00] placebo as epigenetics, purely. I think we've associated placebo as a negative thing. The placebo is just the mind actually, creating activity, whether it's nervous system or genetic activity, that is leading to a certain state of being, right?

coffee does that and great. and there might be a historic, reason for it. And there might be a reason because it, you associate it with social, as you said, people all around the world have associated with sitting together as a community, drinking coffee.

And that association gets triggered with that smell. So it could be plenty of reasons.

Daria: Many pieces of art or theatre or very important scenes were driven by coffee or they have coffee as a Characteristic as the main protagonist, let's say. The, I agree with you. I think placebo is actually great. And I have two grandmothers, I had two grandmothers. Now one [00:31:00] could not go to sleep without having a coffee before going to The other one could not drink coffee after five. Because in her mind, it would keep her awake. Now, coffee was, accused of being, poisonous, of being, magical, of being detrimental for the heart and for your stomach. it had something esoteric, as, the whole picture comes out from. And then it was absolutely kicked off as, a recipe for long living by the science As a scientist, I read a lot about placebo. I gave you the example of my two grandmothers and we know how much we can drive ourselves to think something or to, really experience that thing if we convince ourself about this. is what we should turn around [00:32:00] every time in positive, no?

Raj: And we don't, actually, I don't think the world appreciates just how much Important the Illy family has been in the coffee story in the world. The way we get coffee today the vacuum sealed coffee boils down to Illy coffee the coffee machines, you know that i've just had my coffee from it, it boils down to, the patent, the Illy patent was the letter, right?

The letter, the first, the first coffee machine, and, 

Daria: was the first 

espresso machine, 'Illetta'.

It's, it dates, 1933, and the big discovery about it was that my great grandfather understood how to make espresso, And the secret was in a different boiler. So the hot water was separated from the hot water that did the extraction of the coffee because it used to be burnt.

Instead having two different temperature, you could raise the [00:33:00] bar and have this wonderful Elisir with this beautiful cream, not foam, cream, glossy cream, which lasts a lot in the cup and having, this. drink full of body coming out was all because he separated the boilers. He understood how the hot beverage could be damaged by too much or too little. Even though I think I was the one in the generation who helped Illy understand that we had to listen to the demands, not force the world to drink espresso.

Espresso is the most magnificent and hard beverage. expression of coffee out of many of different preparations. But still, people also drink instant, American coffee. And I think [00:34:00] that's when we really opened our minds and became consumer centric. And I think that the most radical innovation that my grandfather, Ernesto Illy, and at the time, Riccardo Illy, who was managing marketing, he brought marketing into the company.

The most, we know we have different kinds of innovations. Some are disruptive, some are incremental, some are, made to do some kind of an improvement. So restyling innovation. Disruptive innovation comes from having that boldness to make the change And to wear it proudly. And that's where Illy was totally crazy. Out of many different blends of coffee that didn't cost very much. They had an excellent marketing, but still they don't stop buying one blend and producing one blend in [00:35:00] different rows with no compromises and being obsessed by size, quality, quantity, and buying campaigns and having a direct relationship.

With the growers. Now this is with what we call consistency, but the moment where consistency paid back is where the story that marketing was telling was a real story 

Raj: it's a good thing to also tell. Take the listeners back to something you started with, which was unifocus, but diversity of experience, right? So you're focusing on the same blend, but through that blend, you're giving the world different experiences based on what they wanted, right?

So you're allowing them to experience more with the assurance that they're going to get a good quality product, right? So that's, interesting. So the unidimensional over here. Does not mean just doing one thing. It means actually doing multiple things, but you've actually just used that uni dimension to keep the consistency in whatever experiences had.

Daria: Yes, [00:36:00] it's the, difference between the shades. It's getting used to, it's not only black or white. It can be grey, it can be, mocha, it can be tea, it can be cream, it's not white. And that's the flexibility where we're having a hard time to, to write in these days because we're also afraid, all of us, to be, to get distracted 

Raj: and I think this boils down to People being afraid of change right generally in the in the past. They've been afraid of change I don't think it's a coincidence That Illy has been the company that has innovated. I think if you hear the story of Illy, your grandfather after World war one, great depression moves from Hungary to, to Trieste falls in love with a woman.

and as an immigrant, by the way, [00:37:00] so the world should know this as an immigrant. not only innovates and builds something phenomenal, but builds one of the largest coffee empires the world has ever seen. I don't think people will be ready for innovation unless they're willing to embrace change.

And that doesn't mean people can not change And that doesn't mean anyone can not become an innovator I think they just need the tools to help them change but until they get that muscle All right. Innovation becomes a little difficult at that point because everyone assumes things have to be done a particular way. It becomes your cultural identity. So Italians have a cultural identity with coffee, but I guess the fact that your, roots also are Austria-Hungarian, and also fact that there was innovation was at the core. You were able to. overcome that I come from a.

food culture, I'm Indian. I grew up to 12 years in Delhi, which is one of the food capitals in India And very often you will hear people talking about food, Indian food and saying, no, you can't do [00:38:00] this.

You can't do this. You can't do that because there is a certain pride and that pride comes from being part a community but sometimes it's very, nice to put some fusion into that and I think you need that because that gives you new experiences and those new experiences allow you to change.

And that, I think. In my head is what kind of drove the Illy, coffee success. I don't know if you agree with that.

Daria: Absolutely. The being brave enough to embrace change is the only way to innovate. All our life is about trial and error. I The end. Learned about innovation in Stanford. I, studied design thinking and I grew up with a father telling me, stop having ideas. People has, who have many ideas, they just fail.

Everyone think they have great ideas. it's not true actually. Some people do have great ideas but maybe out of 50 ideas, five can be [00:39:00] tested. And maybe no one of them will pay back. You can start over. Embrace change, understand what the world needs, understand how you can ride that change, and how you, you're giving a contribution somehow. you, cannot enforce change. You can inspire change.

Raj: . And I think it's really interesting talking about inspiring change here. Okay. Because this is a person from another country who moves to Italy and sets up one of the largest coffee conglomerates in the world.

The world has ever seen and he comes at this, as with just a curious mind and a military training And he brings

 The people of Italy along with him

with For this change. So much so that,

Illy is the crown jewel of Italy now Okay. So, tell me, what do you think [00:40:00] made this happen? 

How did he inspire that change? 

Daria: So you're asking about, about something that is much discussed, and I have been writing pretty much about on LinkedIn As you know I'm a journalist, I like to write my thoughts, but when there is a scientific evidence about what I say, I like to reference what I think on certain type of channels. where this is required.

So what can we learn What can we not learn? it's the famous definition of the difference between a leader and a manager. You can do whatever you want. You can do the best business schools and MBAs and take all your doctorates. You won't be a leader unless someone recognise you as such.

So leadership and charisma are recognised. And that's [00:41:00] where inspiring change happens. And usually this happens when you like to listen,

when you do more thinking than speaking, observing than doing, inspiring what to do, not how to do So that is charisma. You don't learn charisma. No school will teach you charisma. But you can change a lot of behaviours. You can learn to an excellent executor.

You can learn how to manage your time. And I'm not saying this is wrong, because if I think about our lives and how much I, meet myself, I am a learning devourer. I like to put in practice everything we discuss on our boards as well. I like to try models. I need to model my life sometimes or to model projects.

I [00:42:00] need a change in some behaviours or some practices,

But this does not mean that this makes you an inspirer of change, which is the difference between me and Mandela, He didn't have to do much His presence was enough to inspire. A smile, a shake of hands. This was my grandfather, Ernesto, for example. Everyone speaks about how much he was interested in how people were and how their families were doing. He would recognise 10 years in the company, 20, 25, 30, 35. I've worked for a company who lost a very important leader This leader had them eat and made them grow. He was spike of change and the perfect execution who made them fly. [00:43:00] This was a family company, by the way. not based in Italy. Where are we being grateful? How are we saying thank you And this is where leaders make a change. This company was in the end bought by a fund. I think they had to go out of stock market to save themselves and they became one of many.

So how do you not become one of many? When you have uninspiring change leader at the top. You, Raj, You had a great idea. You were rewarded for your ideas, and now life is rewarding you because you're, making a snowball effect on something that no one sees as a trend.

Though we did ride a technological trend but the change has been inspired by a leader who put [00:44:00] himself on the table and said, Guys. I had a problem and I know people have problems. Who does not have problems inside here? Who does not have issues? So how can we make the change? There are so many kinds of inspirational ways to be a leader, but you don't decide them.

You don't read about them. Yes, you can read about example. Again, it's the difference between me and Mandela. I'd love to be Mandela. If only I could change the way the world is reverting. and, coming against us because all we did, I'd be, I'd do anything to leave that trace. And in our small pieces of life, each one of us leaves that trace.

Raj: But I think charisma can, everyone is charismatic, they just need to find what they can be charismatic [00:45:00] about.

And sometimes they're not able to find what they can be charismatic about because they are stuck in autopilot and not loving what they do, right? I mean I'll look at my life before and now at MindHug, completely different I've had different phases in my life where I've loved life and I've not loved live. You know I've had a mental health breakdown as well as we all know, And it's very different now, right?

and i'm really enjoying what I do, and I know I have the freedom to fail because of this The strong support

the strong support network that I told you about.

And I think what your great grandfather did Was not only find something within himself to have the freedom to fail, and you can tell me what that was, But also be there for people to say look I've got you, and I will take you with me.

Daria: There's always something that you say that I write down and then I will remember the next days. And this is where you make a difference.

You're a knowledge [00:46:00] person, but you're never a You never make this be heavy on anyone. You have your studies, you're a natural born phenomenon, you did so many things, you're so wise, you're a super young CEO, and you're obviously growing.

Raj: My head's growing. Daria, my head's massive right now.

Daria: Yeah, I know, but the company's growing, people that stood with you, were probably left by you. They didn't leave you, So I think that this is an example of overcoming fear. And sometimes I talk to this as a coach to people. So what is fear? And you said something wonderful before because you said we are all charismatic and you're so right. 

I try this business. I try to do coffee. What happens if I do it wrong? The coffee is going [00:47:00] to be terrible. Okay, so? Is that going to kill someone? No, they're going to spit it. Okay, if they spit it, okay, they're going to say that this brand sucks. Okay, so? Am I going to be killed? Are my people going to be killed for this?

you ask yourself the worst questions. Fear is a matter of being prepared to the worst. And if you live it, and you rehearse it's done. You're already over it. Very easy to say, very difficult to

Raj: that is a great line. If you live it, I think the problem the world has very often is they act from the idea of it. They don't live it to see how trivial that fear can be. And allow people around them to feel like they don't need to fear that sometimes that community feeling goes. I often use this example.

And I've been cooking since I was about three [00:48:00] years old. Yeah. and maybe one day I'll bring my parents onto this podcast and they'll tell you the since I was about three years old. I love cooking. I love cooking. I cook all sorts of cuisines - and one line I use, very often when people say, Oh, they're not good cooks.

I said really the, ability for someone to get food really wrong is near impossible. Okay. It's, near impossible. Everything to some extent is, going to be edible and edible at a reasonable level. It's just the fear. People think that, they can't cook and they get very, touchy about fish and things like that.

but the fact of the matter is, we all can cook, We all can cook, but we just have that fear that we can't cook. 

Last question and then we will leave the listeners with something that you want to give them to takeaway, takeaway home, either a book, a song or something.

But last question, [00:49:00] how's it working with MindHug? 

Daria: I like the adventure. 

I felt pressure in myself to make it grow fast and be the first in Italy and face competition earlier but then it was okay because our texture is different. Every good idea attracts competition so okay let other people go before.

There obviously would have been someone before after COVID thinking of we need this. But I think the purposeful mission of MindHug, which took a lot of time to be generated, to go through the beta and the alpha, and all the tests that are abinated, and all the specialists that you decided were okay, then they weren't okay.

We have [00:50:00] prototyped, tested, re prototyped, tested, re tested, re prototyped. And that's the only way to, to give birth to something that wherever we start from, there is a hard shell. you're not throwing this kind of an important service into people's homes. There's there are commercials here, everywhere.

I called you very, I was worried. I said, God, Raj, they started in Italy. They're starting already now. I, have no idea about the quality, but I know that they can spend, obviously, 'cause they're shouting this in radios. But I stopped worrying. I think MindHug, is a milestone for the next generations. It will probably save

 a lot of lives.

Raj: I hope so. I hope so. the turning point for MindHug was when we said, we're not about building a product for the [00:51:00] sake of product, we are about building change, and that happened middle of last year. And that's, what's really changed everything for us. We went back to our roots. 

 Because we started obviously few days before COVID hit, which was the worst time to start a business so we really didn't start for a few years after that.

And we tried to ride everything and change our ways, and try and be sexy for venture capitalists and everything. but then eventually we went back to our roots and said, we are about change, understanding the mind and implementing change. And I think that was the biggest game-changer for us as MindHug 

Daria: Maybe COVID, you said it was the worst time to start MindHug. 

I think in the end it turned out to be the best time. 

I think you build, we all build so many relationships and important business have grown during COVID.

Otherwise, talking at each other or speaking over a podcast, I never made so many friends. [00:52:00] worldwide as in the period of post COVID and COVID. And I hear them every day, or every two days, and maybe I never met them. It's just as if. And I know we say all this stuff about, being in person, but COVID did teach us one thing, not to be scared of technology and being open to change, at least listening about change.

Is it so bad? Is it so terrible to speak over a phone and not being there over coffee? It's gonna be great to be over coffee. Fine. Still, it's great to have a piece of your time. Because time is, in the end, the real luxury that we all have. 

Raj: last parting thoughts, Daria, before we, sign off any book, any music, any playlist, anything

you think helped you through a period of change that you want to share with the listeners? 

Daria: [00:53:00] If you want to feel a bit lighter and sometimes we need to be lighter at heart and stop thinking so much, I would travel to Portugal and I would listen to Jack Johnson. I would learn how to do something new. Mental breaks are so much more important than vacations because we're on the autopilot. Don't go walking. Go surfing. Learn how to surf. Go. perfect your swimming style. Don't do stuff that is automatic. Learn something totally new. Go to cooking school. Go to kaizen. Go to karate. You gotta take your mind off of everything and deep dive into something new, totally new, and break the rhythm at least 20 minutes per day. 

Raj: 100%. a 20 minute rule. Do something for 20 minutes for one year and you'll be better than 95% of the [00:54:00] world at it. And you will enjoy life to the fullest. I picked up the guitar about two weeks ago, after about 25 years. Used ChatGPT, used technology to learn things that was never taught to me in the one month I picked up guitar, which is why I gave it up. And now I'm obsessed with the guitar. Thank you, Daria.

Thank you for, coming on. We got you. I really appreciate your time, I appreciate your insights. And I'm sure the listeners will get a lot out of it. thank you Daria. 

Daria: Thank you Raj, 

thank you for having me.