In Conversation With - Rebecca Keen: Co-Founder and Director of KEEN Cyber

Join MindHug CEO Chitraj (Raj) Singh on the MindHug podcast series on change, as he chats with Rebecca Keen: Co-Founder and Director of KEEN Cyber, who is driven by a passion for human connection and disrupting the tired status quo of recruitment.

In this episode, they discuss the intertwining relationship between humans and technology, managing relationships in business to maximise positive change, and how historical insights are shaping humanity's path toward a better future.

Transcript

Raj: [00:00:00] Rebecca Keen: a psychologist, she's worked in recruitment and people, and now 'KEEN Cyber'.

Rebecca: Change for me, is about an opportunity to grow, learn and build on what's gone before and what you can create moving forward. 

Sometimes you need to let go of some of the things that have happened before to evolve into where you want to go but actually sometimes it's the society which is the enabler of change and the enabler of improvement and getting better 

Raj: Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of MindHug: 'We Got You'. This is our series on change and today I've got a very special guest, someone I've known for a fairly long time and a fairly serendipitous meeting we had, but Rebecca Keen and Rebecca is a psychologist. [00:01:00] She's worked in recruitment and people and now she's working within organisational change and cyber security, so very, Topical given change more generally in the world, and we're going to talk to Rebecca in a minute, and, and I will give it to her to just introduce herself, and you've already met, one of her colleagues, Tony, so Tony was on our podcast earlier, Rebecca and Tony are now part of Keen Cyber, and, and that's a cybersecurity consultancy, and Rebecca obviously brings the people and psychology know how and Tony brings his work with logic, law, defense, all of those nice stuff.

so I'll give it over to Rebecca. Rebecca, you want to just. Introduce yourself to the listeners.

Rebecca: Thank you so much. You did a great introduction for me there anyway, Raj. So I really appreciate that. and yeah, we did have a serendipitous meeting, but it's when two worlds collide and create, a wonderful set of, I was going to say [00:02:00] fireworks, but bouquet of flowers. because it's been great getting to know you and indeed getting more involved in MindHug as well.

So my background is yes, people related. So recruitment, and that side of things. I also have a psychology background as well. So with an undergrad in, psychology, and then specialised in forensic psychology for my master's. So I'm really, passionate about how, the worlds collide in terms of, people, their psychology, their behaviour and technology, which is my, technology and cyber, which is my, my other businesses.

so yes, I, also am founder and director for a community, group called OxCyber. So we're based in the Thames Valley, and this is a membership group for free to be a member, but we offer resources to enable businesses and people to better understand cyber security. No scare factors, and I'm sure we'll probably talk about some of that in terms of change as well.[00:03:00] 

and yes, I work with Tony in KeenCyber. Tony is a fantastic security consultant who really, believes in people first as well. So that's how our values align. And, yeah, so we do amazing things together in terms of helping others with their cyber.

Yeah,

Raj: lovely. And it's your journey is very similar, although you might have started at a very different side to me, but using psychology to, to change organisations and cybersecurity became a huge part of what we do at MindHug as well. Looking at the psychological barriers to change, for organisational change more generally and social change as well, but cybersecurity in particular.

that kind of brings me to an open question which we ask everyone, Rebecca, what does change mean to you?

Rebecca: such a big word and I think I can imagine a lot of your listeners are either waiting or with bated breath as well. This is going to be a powerful statement or probably in fear of actually, I don't really like change. So I'm not interested. So [00:04:00] for me, it's about growth. Any area where we see change or we're evolving in some way is an opportunity for growth, whether that's in business, personal relationships, an opportunity to grow, learn and build on what's gone before and what you can create moving forward.

for me, It can be daunting, but it's equally, exhilarating. So what you get at the end, you don't necessarily know, but there's always some sort of rewarding qualities that you get from enabling that change. and you can't grow without leaving some of those things in the past. And that's a sort of a true sort of psychological statement there in terms of when you're working on yourself or your individual person.

sometimes you need to let go of some of the things that have happened before to evolve into where you want to go. So, yeah, it's all about growth for me, I would say. 

Raj: That's amazing, because, at MindHug we always say there's, basically two [00:05:00] things, that human beings are seeking. Actually, one fundamental thing human beings are seeking, and one is a subset of that. I think human beings are seeking is experience and connection.

And, and really they realised that one barrier to that was sometimes safety. and that's where the resistance to change comes because everyone starts focusing so much on safety, they forget that was just a barrier that we had to overcome to actually get to the stage of growth. Right. and, and you mentioned right in the beginning, which was. around, some people will have resistance to change, in your view as a psychologist, what do you think is driving that resistance to change?

Rebecca: It's, it's a really big topic and it's really unique for, I would say every individual or business or a sort of entity. And, it really does depend on, [00:06:00] that individual. But for me, I feel like, as, humans, we are wired for routine. So even from an early age, and you'll see this in sort of a parenthood, is that you start nurturing your baby into a routine.

So they'll become in a sleep habit. They become in a feeding habit. So all of those, excuse me, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, we, from such an early age, we're, indoctrinated with routine. So as soon as that routine changes, that can cause, problems and that's where the resistance comes up because we're so used to doing something.

We're not always wanting to, to change things. We like predictability almost. And as we try and look at the resistance, it's different for everybody. We have people who are more likely to be risk takers and then people who are completely the opposite. But what that can do is that resistance can create a level of stress, anxiety.

we start thinking things like, what if I can't handle this? And [00:07:00] we start doubting our own abilities. But it's really the fear of the unknown because we don't know what comes next and that change. What is the effect of that change? We've only got a small space where we can predict. I know that So technology is enabling us to predict things a lot easier.

we've got the use of AI and all these wonderful tools. but actually in the long and short of it, we have no idea what happens after that change. And yeah, it's really crucial to really look at that resistance and why people resist. and it's not as simple as just, change that idea and it will all be fine because as humans, we just don't know we haven't got that.

that glass, magic ball that will tell us of the future, which is a shame because, I think a lot of us would really, appreciate that. there's also the sort of the social impact of, of change as well. So how, socially it can affect people. for example, if [00:08:00] we're talking about personality and things like that, embedding that kind of change within your personality is hugely difficult and a lot of people are resistant.

I'm going to also pick on things like addiction. So addiction problems, people becoming resistant to abstaining from those as well, because the fear of not having those is so great. and also the social impact as well. So how do they fit into society once they've created that change? So there's a whole host of, wonderful research around how to enable and help those people who are particularly resistant.

And don't forget, okay. change for those on who are neurodivergent is an absolute crucial factor. So those that do, lend themselves to some sort of spectrum of the neurodiverse, there's lots of different challenges within that spectrum, all different ways of why change isn't the forefront of their mind or something that they're going to be enabled to do.

And [00:09:00] so there will be resistance in that.

Raj: Yeah. And we're going to talk about this in more detail as well and addiction as well. And you touched on that, you touched upon neurodiversity. In fact, I think the world is now saying we're all neurodiverse. It's neurodivergent is the term because everyone is so different because they're all processing things so differently.

And, we're going to touch upon this and, how addiction even is, really boils down to psychological fears, as you mentioned, and, and, the substance is actually not the cause of it And obviously you've seen this as a forensic psychologist, I'm sure as well. And, we have this tendency to paint someone's behaviour a particular way.

And. almost be judgmental about it, which, which, which actually stops change from happening at a more broader social scale as well. Because you don't know what fears are behind some of that. What behaviours, learned behaviours, what genetics are some of that [00:10:00] as well. but it's interesting that. We keep going back to the term, and you mentioned it, I mentioned it, which is fear, right?

And, and we live in a world where fear has taken over. and unfortunately, and we know this through brain scans, that the minute you're in a fearful state, your, rational state of mind, so whether you cause a prefrontal cortex or whatever, it shuts down, right? You can biologically see this.

And, and, we think we are acting from free will, but we actually acting from autopilot at that point. And the problem is we behave in ways in which we, our autopilot behaviour is our way of seeking safety, which sometimes is in fight mode, which means you put someone else's fight mode and you get into a spiral where everyone's an autopilot and everyone thinks.

People are doing something to them when it's actually life [00:11:00] happening for that kind of, yeah, it's a very unusual thing that happens, but people need to break away from it. And it's difficult.

Rebecca: It's really interesting that you touched on the fight and flight area as well because absolutely. when, people are in fear, they do have a typical reaction. So it might be fight, it might be flight, it might be stay, it might be freeze. And, it's unique to everybody. And, you, could ask a whole host of people, what would you do in a situation if somebody was, attacking you, what would you do?

And then I'd run away, of course. And actually in that moment, this is the autopilot you're talking about, that although there's a majority of people that think that they would run away, but actually in that moment, they might freeze or they might actually react because you just don't know. And you evaluate the threats around you in such quick, succession.

it's really like nanoseconds almost of that evaluation. And a lot of that processing is, you've been stored over years, [00:12:00] and it could, there could be some sort of faulty storing as they've gone along. So previous experiences may, make you more likely to run or more likely to fight, for example.

And, I think going back to thinking about the fear, and this is particularly for, technology and cyber security as well. there's a lot of fear mongering around some of those aspects. so the, the fear that, the cyber threats will come and get you, the dark web and things.

And yes, while that's very serious and there is a lot going on and, that hackers do exist. I think there's a really good way of us being able to, perhaps look at the rhetoric around what we're doing and how we're framing this because the fear mongering isn't going to enable, that, safety.

and it's in fact either going to make you fight or flight or freeze. if we're thinking about, particularly cyber security and the security within our sort of technology. [00:13:00] the fear mongering isn't going to help. We're not going to get the right results. We're not going to see the right innovation and that kind of thing as well.

yeah, so fear for me is a huge factor in most and what we're doing.

Raj: And the fear is also being bred by the CS strangely enough.

Rebecca: Yes. Yeah.

Raj: because, we did some research talking to people about cyber security and why privacy is important, which it is, don't get me wrong, privacy is very, important. But very, often the answers we got was not always about identity theft and someone taking money. It was about if my information comes out, I don't know how it's gonna be judged. And, so, there's a fear that people are going to judge you and judgment itself is an autopilot response that society has developed. where, why as MindHug, we focus so much on non judgment is exactly what this, is, because, people behave [00:14:00] particular ways because of autopilot reactions, because that's how they've been trained and if we are going to.

Judge ourselves and judge others based on. Those autopilot reactions, we're going to get into a completely unsurmountable spiral and that's dangerous. It's also the rhetoric around why cyber security is important, is also, is also something that needs to be looked at more from a technological, but as well as from a social and people perspective is what I feel.

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. And our lives are so intertwined these days. So you can't really separate the human from the digital aspect anymore. It was back in the day, people were going to school with a pen and paper, or depending on how old you are, a quill and some, some parchment.

and now, We're all walking around with effectively our computers in our hands, and it's all there in inside those phones that we've got now. We've got our bank cards We've got our id our health [00:15:00] records are all stored in Digital capacity. So literally everything we're doing now is all digital And so whilst we would buy a lock to lock our front door to keep us safe, we now need to start thinking about the types of locks that we need for our digital house.

and, the fear mongering around it just won't work. You won't see change and you won't see people adopt those attitudes of how do I keep myself safe? I think it's, Enabling people to, digest the information because there's so much jargon out there and they like the, in any industry, you get your acronyms and things like that.

Just simplify it. And this is what OxCyber does as well is we're trying to give information so people can, take the information without feeling like, Oh my goodness, I'm going to be hacked and having that fear and anxiety and then implement what they need to do. So simple things like, looking after their passwords or changing them regularly, two factor authentication, which should be an absolute compulsory, [00:16:00] mandatory thing in any technological device that you have, quite frankly.

It's about ensuring that we're thinking about how we ask people to adopt these good practices, good attitudes to keep themselves safe without that fear mongering.

Raj: Yeah, no, absolutely. And, You talked about the devices we have. the really interesting thing is this, thing over here. All right. It has, it's, more advanced than the technology that was used in the Apollo 11 moon landing in 1969. 

 100% - 

Rebecca: I'd say mine's more advanced than myself, what I've got in this little machine is probably more advanced than me, evolutionary. and yeah, that in itself is a huge breakthrough, isn't it? A huge innovation.

Raj: Absolutely. And let's touch upon this because you've spoken about, you've spoken about the technology, you've spoken about the social side, you've spoken about adoption, which is obviously, [00:17:00] MindHugs bread and butter right now, which we work with a lot of, we work with the government, projects.

We work with organisations on adoption of organisational change in particular through a psychological lens, which obviously you've helped with as well. And, so the question I have is. And let's, break this down. Why is digital security so important right now? And you've touched upon it. If you had to summarise it, why is digital security so important?

Rebecca: is a really great question. I've got so many different reasons why it's important. But I think the main thing is just like I mentioned earlier, when you're locking your front door, you may not just lock your front door, you might have a security alarm now or a ring doorbell. And that advancement that we've got that those capabilities are there for using, right?

but with all of that comes the vulnerability and the risk. And the aim is to keep you safe, but also they are another way another entry in for people that are smart. So it's [00:18:00] how can you, adopt the mindset that okay, I've got my security features.

So for example, I'm just going to throw out Microsoft, loads of people use Microsoft, for businesses for personal and whatever. And actually Microsoft has some really great security features and a lot of them you wouldn't even know about. And why, aren't we engaging with people to teach them on those, aspects of, security and why it's so important. 

Everything that's kept on your phone, for example, you should definitely have a password on it. So a lock password, but again, is that going to be secure enough? Probably not. So make sure you've got your face ID on there as well. And so you will, person would need your face. So it's just simple measures to maximize the, the security and the, process that you've got around what your estate is, or if it's your, personal, and yeah, that constantly thinking, how else can I make this safer?

Raj: Yeah. two things. it is [00:19:00] about minimising risk, right? And that's interesting. you mentioned Microsoft, which is really interesting because, we know what happened with Microsoft recently,

Rebecca: absolutely.

Raj: All the investments, despite everything, despite them having state of the art, ex-military through CrowdStrike, the world came to a standstill.

so the point is, it's about minimising risk. And minimising risk doesn't mean there's gonna be a zero failure, right? And we need to, studies have now shown that 50 to 80% of, of, digital security leaders have said that at some point. they have had some sort of breach on their

Rebecca: I think that percentage is probably higher by now as well, than 

Raj: Correct. Correct. And, so I expect everyone will at some point get breached, right? The point is, how do you minimise the risk of that happening? And how do you minimise the psychological impact

Rebecca: Yes.

Raj: as well?

Rebecca: Yes, absolutely.

Raj: that's really, important. Because you feel, like you said, [00:20:00] it's like a break-in, right?

Rebecca: Yep. 100%.

Raj: The same psychological element that you have with a break in, you feel vulnerable, you feel exposed, and that's the same thing with a digital security attack, right?

Rebecca: It really

is. 

Raj: and that boils down to not only how the individual deals with that, but also how society helps the individual. through those, and, and helps them realise it's not that big a deal.

even if it is, we're there, We Got You, in the name of the podcast,

Rebecca: There's definitely, there's some really great resources out there. So if people have, had a breach or they've been hacked or they just want a bit of advice, I think there's a cyber helpline, which is staffed up. So I think it's a number that you can call and just ask for advice if you're needing some help.

So I think it's about us all collaborating together and building together to, to make sure that people do feel safe and you're absolutely spot on, that the effect of, your house being broken into and your things stolen is the same, it's the same [00:21:00] feeling and emotion as it is on your, phone or your, any of your devices.

And that's what I think people forget. They just think, oh, it won't happen to me because it's So far removed and actually it can happen to anyone like Microsoft. It happens, right? CrowdStrike, all of the different big brands that we think are there to keep us safe. They have breaches too, right?

They have issues. and so it's about, yeah, minimising, minimising that risk, knowing that there are organisations out there to help you and to give you advice if you need some help, and yeah, and making sure that you're emotionally resilient to, if something was to happen, how you react to that. So your resilience is key for that, area.

Raj: and resilience is, an individual and social thing, right?

Rebecca: Agreed.

Raj: as you said, it's individualising. You have to realise sometimes that what we think is so catastrophic [00:22:00] that it's the mind's way of dealing with threat. But I think there was a study done on this, that psychologists have actually traced for a small, reasonably large sample of the fears that people had versus what actually

Rebecca: Yeah,

Raj: And they found between 85 to 90 percent of the fears that people had never materialised.

Rebecca: yes. Yeah. 

Raj: But I think we've discussed this study in the past

Rebecca: I think we have, and I'm one of those people. I always think what's going to happen, like the worst outcome. And I assume that's what's going to happen. I don't know. There's a whole host of reasons why. And then

Raj: it's confirmation bias

bias 

Rebecca: Absolutely. And I will seek out the confirmation to make sure that I'm right. Cause I like to be right.

and, I'm not always right, but I do like to be right. And yeah, that in itself is a really difficult, emotional behaviour to change as well. so getting out of that habit of assuming the worst all the time.

Raj: And this is a really, this is [00:23:00] a really good point. To actually discuss information more generally, right? Why do we have confirmation bias? and okay, and this is, so in my head and in all the research we've done at MindHug, the reason for confirmation bias fundamentally boils down to the abundance of information we have, right?

So just from this perspective, we say this a lot. in 2020 or 2019 when the study was done, it was estimated that we had created more information in the previous two years than all of human existence. Okay. We know today information is doubling every 12 hours. Okay. So, we have more information than we've ever had to deal with, which obviously means digital security becomes very important, which is part of the reason why digital security is important.

But why is, what does this do to human beings generally? And this is, this impacts not only adoption of digital security measures and organisational change measures, but life more generally, right? People cannot, filter through so much information. they [00:24:00] build shortcuts, heuristics as it's called in social science, right?

one of the heuristics has been to focus on safety. So just look at, look out for threats, right? And the problem is when we keep looking out for threats, and we see this because the mind is like a muscle you can see neurons thickening, the more you use them, and it's like my right hand when I pick up this mug of coffee, I'm gonna use my right hand.

I'm not gonna go to, my default position is gonna right hand. My brain knows that's the most, that's the stronger arm, right? And, and it's the same with confirmation bias. The more we start using the threat mode and the more we start catastrophising,

 the more the mind keeps looking at the world through a checkbox

Rebecca: Absolutely. Yeah.

Raj: because it needs to filter through that information. and it's saying that information is predominantly threat, which it's not, but it just tells it and it just looks at threats. Which means we get into a spiral of catastrophisation [00:25:00] because this confirmation bias happens the confirmation bias reaffirms that neuron, gets stronger and we get into a negative spiral

Rebecca: Yes, absolutely.

Raj: and it's autopilot. It's autopilot.

Rebecca: And also, yeah, on the confirmation bias, you're right. So it's the negative, but it also can work in the positive as well. So it can go the opposite way. and just going back to your psychological safety is that we're constantly as humans seeking that feeling of comfort and safety.

Even if it's in a negative experience, we will still go and seek out whatever we need to justify why we are in that position. Oh, and it can be from any source. social media is probably the quickest way that someone can justify where they are to help them feel safe, even if they're in a negative space.

And it's difficult for people to understand when, and I'm just going to go back to the addiction. So if somebody doesn't have an addiction, looking at those that do and understanding that they, they're validating their behaviour all the time. It's really difficult to get them to change when everywhere they look [00:26:00] and it's usually their social circles.

They're having a drink or they are, they live near a pub or whatever, which is constantly, giving them those cues that they, that's to stay in there and, psychological safety, and confirmation bias, for me, are hand in hand, they are skipping down the road together. come on, if you want a bit of this, you need a bit of this.

and it's, it's. really difficult to even try and comprehend whether it's on the negative or it's up to you as an individual to decide where you're at, and figure out whether it is the negative or the positive.

Raj: and absolutely. And I actually think all biases in the world are subsets of confirmation bias.

Rebecca: Yeah. Agreed. Yeah.

Raj: I know the world talks about whatever, some talk about 27 biases, some talk about 50. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Raj: different people, the different number of biases that they're talking about. I actually feel. It all boiled down to confirmation bias.

And I remember my, my, you'd, know that I went through [00:27:00] quite significant mental health challenges for a long time, including psychosis. And I actually feel my psychosis spiral because of confirmation bias, because I was just confirming fears that were within. my psychotic episode, right?

and, and it just went out of control. And that's what, and it was reversing that. As you said, there's a reversal which can get you out of it as well. and that reversal had to come when I realised the conditioning that has shaped all of us as human beings and, and, the, judgment that we put on ourselves and others

 After it starts feeding that confirmation bias.

And, and that comes from a place of fear I've said this in previous podcasts as well. There's a very, interesting interview by Mike Tyson, where he talks about a very dark period that he went through in the nineties, as we know, he, and he was, not a very liked person in the nineties and, Mike Tyson said something and he's I look back at that time and he's I was just [00:28:00] afraid. And if you ask me why I was afraid, I don't even know. and, and I, that was a very, powerful interview for me.

Rebecca: I bet. I would be really interested to hear how far he's got with exploring that idea of, what he was afraid of back then. hearing what his thoughts are as a, an adult, because it will be very different to how he's experiencing the memories, which were back then. So he's got a different lens to, to look on that.

And it'd be interesting because his, background, he's got such an interesting story. And whether you like him, you dislike him. It doesn't matter. He's got a very interesting story and he's got one that we could definitely learn from as psychologists themselves and particularly because he was in the ring as well.

one of the major sports along with like rugby where actually brain injury is absolutely critical to those. And they, if your [00:29:00] brain's getting knocked around so much, for me, it's inevitable, something's going to happen. And to be able to study perhaps, Mike Tyson and understand what his sort of, his learned experiences through, through his years would be fascinating.

Raj: he, and he comes across as a very, lovely person now, all right. You see him, you see it's almost a philosopher level. 

Rebecca: He's got time though, hasn't he? He's got time now to really think about who he is as an individual, whereas back then the pressure was on, was really on.

Raj: And it was an autopilot response. Now that doesn't take away from the fact that he's the first to admit it, that he did hurt a lot of people in that process.

Okay. and. and that's where I think we need to look at this as a society is we need to figure out how people stop getting hurt, period. Okay. And help people who get hurt. Okay. Now that does not mean you stop blaming individuals and start dealing with that, but that [00:30:00] doesn't mean you don't help people who are getting hurt as well.

because that's, what's going to lead to change at an organisational level, a social level, an individual level at a wellbeing as well.

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. And the change will take time, right? So whilst IT technology is evolving at a rapid speed, us humans are still evolving at a rapid speed. We're still rapid speed, but we're still evolving, and we're a lot slower than the rest of the things that are there. And, and I think over time, we're starting to see really good change in our societies, for example, embracing diversity, embracing culture, race, there's still pockets of issues And it blows my mind because I was really lucky.

I got to grow up in a place where I, I wasn't a diverse, I say diverse, I'm still in the UK, right? So it wasn't, I wasn't in London, right? So it wasn't that diverse. but, I'm able to, see past all of those. And that's what my teachings were, my learnings. but yet there's still [00:31:00] pockets of, places where there are, still huge changes that need to happen, all the, different biases.

And again, the confirmation bias comes in, right? So they see something that they don't like, so they'll go and seek out, i. e. find on social media, posts, that will validate that behaviour, those attitudes. And for any meaningful change to happen is we've all got to really club together and try and drag the, those that don't want to, live in a society, with where we look after each other.

We keep people safe, and, help them change.

Raj: Absolutely. And, and, you said some people are not able to come out of that. And that's what I. I was discussing the other day that my mental health illness was not a punishment, it was a privilege.

Rebecca: wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Raj: was a privilege because it had to literally pull me out of autopilot

 I had no other option, right?[00:32:00] 

it was a luxury to go through that. And it was a luxury to have the support that I had, which gave me the freedom to fail in so many ways. And the freedom to fail continues today, which some people don't have,

Rebecca: And I think the failure as well is a lot of it is in the individual. that, that fear of failure and it could be the upbringing and things. and actually we need to embrace. I think some of the big, some of the big brands, I think Googles and things, really do try to embrace that, keep failing because we keep failing.

I think it was Edison and the light bulb as well. He's failed how many times and just using that analogy when you can apply that to yourself. And, I really love how you've, taken your experience and, you've moulded it into something that's safe. and feels comfortable for you to be able to move on.

And it's great to be able to share, firstly, share that with you. And you're open to share that with us as well. but it's about, [00:33:00] applying how you did it and understanding the intricacies of what went on for you and sharing that with others who might be in similar positions so that they, don't feel, feel that it's a bad thing to have a psychosis, although the media would tell you it's bad and people go, Oh, it's bad.

And, or even when people are in the current flow of psychosis, it can be very difficult to sit in their space because people don't understand and it's scary and it's, what's going on. I can't predict what they're going to do. And, just enabling people to sit in their space. sit in that space so long as, there's no harm to, either person, but sit in that space, you might not understand what they're saying.

You might, they may not be coherent, just being there with them and holding that space for them. And, yeah, and helping them come out with it, with a wonderful reflection on where you came from, if that makes sense. A very positive way

Raj: I appreciate that Rebecca, but the truth is it's, a, it's not, it didn't happen in silos, right? If I had [00:34:00] not had a support network, if I hadn't had my parents, I hadn't had my friends, family, past and present, it would have been a very, different situation and, and it was everything.

I had psychosis, depression, anxiety, OCD, and it came within a blink of an eye. was sudden. and the problem was, and the interesting thing was these learnings helped me. once I had these learnings, everything started dissipating. 

Rebecca: Yeah. 

Raj: Everything dissipated. it was like, the underlying reasons were just the thought patterns I had developed, they needed to be rejected.

and, and these were just manifestations of it. And we do look at this, right? We do look at this because we do look at the evolutionary reasons for a lot of mental health issues and, yes, there are chemical reasons, there are traumatic reasons, and there are some seriously, major things that we do need to look at, though there are studies that trace it back [00:35:00] to an era of pre language and how, heightened states of emotion, depression, anxiety, all of these were, ways in which we communicated pre language.

and, the tribe would then use this as information with which they would help you. And once you would help you, you would, come down to a baseline state. and what's happening right now is, the tribe isn't coming. hence why we have my tribe over here.

the tribe isn't, the tribe isn't coming and, and the, tribe isn't coming not for a lack of desire because, but it's because the tribe themselves are fighting their own battles and the tribe doesn't recognise. The battles you're facing, and also we're just living more and more isolated lives.

Rebecca: 100%. 100%. And, long gone are those tribes where, the grandmother would be at the top or the elders, and what, their wise words, like feeding down through the generations. And we don't have that. there's [00:36:00] some. are places in the UK where you can still see those families that live together.

which is great. but it's very few and far between. It's very few and far between. I know my family is scattered all over the UK. when we get together, it's like maybe once a year if we possibly can. And a lot of it's on the phone. So they wouldn't even know if I was going through anything unless I spoke up.

And actually when you're going through something, the last thing you want to do sometimes is speak up.

Raj: Absolutely. And it's really interesting because there were studies done, albeit this was done in the 70s. on serious mental health issues such as schizophrenia, et cetera. And they actually found that the prognosis of those with serious mental health issues was actually much better, in developing countries than developed countries.

indeed there was a slight difference in, it being accepted at first, but once it was accepted as an illness, the prognosis was significantly better [00:37:00] and they linked it to social connection and 

acceptance.

Rebecca: Yeah, Absolutely.. They've got different treatment over there though. So for certain things, and where we would call them a depression, like in India, it's slightly different. They, have a different And then also in, in Africa, it's completely different. It's, almost like they've spiritual, possession and things of why someone would be melancholy and stuff.

And, their treatments and the way they do it is also different, but that's what I love about humans. I love. how diverse people are and in our sort of western world where we've got western medicines we'd probably treat with a medicine and we can't understand but actually sometimes it's the society which is the enabler of change and the enabler of improvement and getting better so and I love those examples.

Raj: Absolutely. on that note, let's talk about society and now, and particularly the cyber security So [00:38:00] how do we change the psychological side within organisations, to help with not only just being better organisations, but also just adopting, measures of change that are needed?

Rebecca: it's a really big question. and if I had the answer, I think I would have solved quite a lot of the world's problems and I don't have the answer and it's a not a one size fits all approach either. So every organization is different, very much like family structures, organisational structures, they're all very different. 

and some have been moulded over years and years so we've got some really big institutions. the government, for example, and the, public sector, those institutions, and we typically know that they are, not maybe, I don't want to use the word resistance, but they are very slow to change, and things can take a very long time, whether it's You know, in the private sector, I think they've got a bit more choice to change.

but I think, setting examples. of how [00:39:00] you want the change to happen. And when we know that people and some people can be resistant to change, but when we know that change is a really difficult thing to, to build in and overcome, make plans for that.

don't. It's not gonna happen overnight. realise that it takes time very much like society when we see societies change. thinking back, to some of the laws that we had, for example, some of the laws need to be changed for us to enable change in organisations. And I think Businesses need, and indeed people as well, they need, to realise that change is inevitable.

So if you want to grow and evolve, change is inevitable. And I hate to bring in the AI concept, it's here, right? It's here. been here for a long time anyway, but now, people are embracing it in their everyday lives. They don't see it tucked behind the databases in their products anymore.

That is in front of them. They can log on [00:40:00] to a ChatGPT and these changes are changing everything and we need to embrace them. We need to understand them first and how they apply to not only ourselves, but our people, our organisations and make a plan to factor them in, because people like plans, people like to be checked in with as well.

Ask the question, how do you feel about this? And, what's the impact on you? And what can I do to lessen the impact? Or, for those that are a little bit more resistant, and I would probably say older generations, are more set in their ways. So they've had a whole host of changes throughout their life that they've had to deal with.

And I'm just thinking about my parents really, particularly my dad, he's very resistant to change. He will not change for anyone. And he would tell you that. And I'm just thinking about if I was to, oh, and I do try and talk to him about his cyber security and keeping safe, don't [00:41:00] click on those, links, dad, and don't do this.

And, but he's resistant to it. Yeah. It's almost like he, he doesn't, it doesn't compute for him. but it's about being softly, and you just, keep on, right? You just keep it. Okay, let's try this and let's try this. trying to facilitate a seamless, Change. he's got a MacBook now and that was me forcing him to do it.

And that's as much of a change that I've managed to do so far. yeah, I think, embracing, the change, doing it slowly. Think it out, plan it, and check in, regular check ins.

Raj: No, absolutely. and linked to that is your other business, which is your hiring business, your people, how important is it getting the right people? I don't want to define what right people means, but I don't think there are ever wrong people, but there are people that, fit the culture, that [00:42:00] people who fit the mission, that people who are on board, because I find if you bring people who are talented and skilled, but they are not motivated.

Or they're not the mission or the leadership team. They're going to be in a constant state of threat mode because there's going to be a kind of a feeling of an imbalance of power, right? Because there's no empowerment and when you're not feeling empowered, you go into threat mode and you're less likely to, want to go with the company or see it as a joint mission.

or you're going to increase conflict with the organization. And we, our own organization, when we bring people who are lovely, people, very talented, happily go to the pub and have a drink with them, but, they just don't fit where we're trying to go with MindHug and then it's trying to put a, square peg through a round hole,

Rebecca: Which 

doesn't work.

Raj: that just doesn't work. And that doesn't mean the square peg is not useful. It is useful But It's it's just not right to fit through the hole. So how important is finding the [00:43:00] right people for this? And how do you keep them going so they are with you and they see it as a joint mission?

Rebecca: Absolutely. and know, I love that you've asked that question because it boils down to values. So what are your values? Get really clear on what your values are. And so when you are going through interviews or you are looking at applications, it's always good to have something around your values in there and see how they, they respond to those values.

If they hold those values as well. The likelihood is that there'll be, a cultural fit of sorts. And then from those values, make sure you're really clear on your mission, whatever your mission is, make sure you've got that statement and, and use that whilst you're either interviewing or you're doing your screening.

and within that, it's like, how do you see, what do you see your role is? on this mission and get them to answer that question. because it's great. You can tell people we're on a mission. You can come along with us, but it's like actually get them to think about how they can embed [00:44:00] themselves in that mission as well and get them really talking about what's important for them.

And usually, you and I both know each other anyway, but I'm a culture first person anyway, you've got to have the right culture, the skills, some skills you can teach. and, but if you haven't got that right culture fit. It's always going to be a long and difficult journey because you're going to jar that said, there is a huge wealth of research by having diverse teams.

but again, I'm still going to say that you can have diversity and you can build diversity and because you don't want the same of you. Otherwise, you're just going to have a business, which is just you. And it's just one stream. You want those ideas. You want people to be different. They can still share your values. what I'm not saying is, just go for people that are like you, which is typical for humans. We, typically will see things in people that we identify. Oh, they're funny. I'm funny. oh, I like you. And actually it's the, values that underpin all of those [00:45:00] personality traits.

and that is in diversity. Diversity as well. we all share sort of different values and some are more stronger than others. And it's, we're getting really clear on those and then asking how they see themselves, where they see their role in that mission to where they want to achieve. And then to get them to stay, you encourage them on their journey, enable, them, give them the tools, give them the resources that they need.

if they want to go off and do a course, find out a way that you can implement that course and blend it into what you're doing. Because when you empower your people and you give them empowerment, you get, an excellent return, obviously. But what you do is you get great engagement and teamwork, and you get people that are invested in working as a team and not off on a sort of a silo and things like that.

so empowerment is really, key. And Making sure that you're checking in regularly and your visions and your values and your missions are still aligning. [00:46:00] and as a leader, particularly as CEOs, directors, you should always be asking like, how can I help? what can I do to support you?

What do you need from me? and just asking those simple questions. Usually you get the right answers to enable them to, do what they want to do as well. 

Raj: Yeah, and I think they both go tandem and in fact they go step by step, right? You have to first hire the right people and build culture of empowerment. The challenge I find with a lot of SMEs and startups in particular is they hire very quickly as you said on instinct. they don't have enough time.

They just need help, right? They need whatever help they can get. They'll hire an equity, they'll hire on and they'll make some terrible, decisions on hiring. And what that means is not only are you getting people who are not fit for the business, but then the barrier, the gap between where they are and making them feel empowered.

Is all that much 

higher.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Raj: [00:47:00] Whereas if you get people who are in line with your mission, the gap that you need to fill between them feeling empowered and remaining empowered is just that much more smaller. It's a, it's, bizarre and we see this and then you just get so much more work done.

and 

Rebecca: And just touching on, you were saying about the small businesses that are quicker to hire,

and they usually are because there's either, it's a, it might be a cheaper option and that, but actually, once you're clear on those values, don't be so quick to hire. appreciate that you need a job, but don't make sure that those values align because, it is more expensive and it will take more time once that person is, in the culture.

And then what happens with, if that person isn't the right fit, it's quite toxic for the rest of the team. And I'm not saying the person's toxic, please, don't. But it's the combination of those elements, which, create explosions and actually that doesn't lead to a success [00:48:00] and growth.

in my view and in my experience, if you do need somebody quick, you get in a contractor. Get in a contractor, they're there to do a job and they're really good. They know that they're a contractor. So they are in to fly in, do a job and then an out. And what, you find, I can't put percentages on it, but, a lot of times the contractor starts at the role thinking that they're going to be there for a certain period of time.

They're a little bit more expensive, but it's less expensive than when you have to say goodbye to an employee that didn't work out. And when they, they fly in and do a piece of work, sometimes they really love the environment. You love them. And there's a real sense of synergy that actually, let's do perm.

So it's like a try before you can buy. but take your time. If you get an opportunity to work with people that, like recruiters or agencies or hiring agencies that, are almost trained to find that cultural fit that really understand the culture of the business [00:49:00] using those can mitigate quite a lot of, issues and decision making because as humans, we, particularly leaders want to fill a role quickly, do it at cost and whatever.

And actually sometimes that's not always the best, the best option.

100 percent and I agree. And this is something we've changed as well. We. Even for contractors, we hire

Slow, yeah.

Raj: we do testing, we do everything in testing. we don't look at the scores just as a score, right? We look at where the gaps are in the team, right? So if someone is low on one thing, but we've got someone who's high on that, then we, we don't mind that.

So it's, like you said, diversity matters and diversity, by the way, matters in more senses

think. And This is something you've seen in some of our workshops. We actually show our realities are different, right? Not only our emotional and psychological realities, but the way we physically see the world, hear words, so really, it's not only just seeing different viewpoints. in the philosophical sense, but it's [00:50:00] actually the literal sense you're seeing different view viewpoints. and that's really, important product design and product sales, et

cetera. 

Rebecca: yeah, 

Raj: so, this is, this is really important and this was something that we did on you and I had discussions around some of.

what we wanted to do as MindHug and some of the past challenges we've faced with people et cetera, and that's been part of why we even changed some of our, recruitment, processes And it's making a difference and it's not to say, and again, to reiterate, it's not to say the people were not good workers or they were not able to deliver.

It's, just, they were not. Able to deliver in the environment that we wanted

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Raj: it to be delivered. and, the philosophy we've had, and, we always wish them well, and we say if

future things change, we're always open for conversations. and, and we do see people coming back as well.

 One, one last question before we close up in your [00:51:00] role as, chief exec of multiple businesses over many years. Is there a miss or a near miss that you look back and you say, I wish I did that differently.

Rebecca: Oh, wow. Wow. That's a big question. do you know, I'm obviously from a psychology background anyway, so I've trained myself not to, to reflect back and see the learnings. So whilst they look like near misses or there were misses back then, they're not because I've seen a path from what had happened where I thought it was, Not right.

And I've actually gone, Oh, okay. So my decision making, and it's critical when you are leading businesses, your decision is critical to what's going to happen. And if there are certainly employees in your business as well, it's what happens to them, etc. Yeah, I guess I've probably, I'd say I, in terms of near misses, I've probably had heaps and heaps, but [00:52:00] I'd probably call, them learning, points, or, I've had loads and loads of failures, but learning points.

And I think one of the key messages, I might have made a decision on hiring, for example, and, I may have misjudged, and maybe hired quickly because it happens to me too. So yeah, decisions with who you partner with and, because on face value, sometimes you are thinking, okay, this could be a great partnership.

And then it just doesn't fit for whatever reason moving forward, but see them as. learning opportunities. We're all learning. We can't know everything. And, and we're still evolving over time. yeah, so those near misses, but I've had some really, great successes as well.

and do you know, all the successes are down to the team that I have around me. and it's by working as a team, that I can, share these successes. It's great to be successful on your own. It's even better to be successful when you've [00:53:00] got people around to share things with. And I have such a fantastic team and, The success of the business is, down to them.

I would say I'm literally just a sort of at the surface level. like I'm part of the team obviously, the, a lot of the stuff that they do is, what keeps us, going. So I'm truly grateful. So yeah.

Raj: Thank you, Rebecca. And reframing is what I'm taking away there, which is

Rebecca: yeah, definitely.

Raj: Reframing and the reason for the near misses was a ocean of information that we were trying to navigate, which is difficult to do

Rebecca: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah,

Raj: and sometimes we make instinctive decisions, which are autopilot. So if you feel safe in decision making, you feel informed, you probably don't think you would make a better decision. So I'm summarising and I'm trying to bring this into the MindHug approach, but this is so so so but correct me if that's not what I'm taking away something incorrect.

Rebecca: no. That's 100 percent [00:54:00] correct. And, the, MindHug is, and I think every organisation should be embracing the MindHug because with, within your platform and your workshops, it enables us as leaders. to help our people to work as a team to make sure we are being the best versions of ourselves as well.

and, and yeah, that's definitely a success, for me. 

Raj: I appreciate that. thank you for your time. Rebecca. That brings us to a close before we go. Just for our listeners. Is there something you want to give them? A song, a book, a

Rebecca: Oh, wow.

Raj: that has helped you, that has helped you with change or helps you feel safe, when you're, things feel a bit overwhelming

Rebecca: Yes. and I suffer from overwhelm a lot and I say suffer. I try not to sit in that overwhelm, but obviously being a leader, a number of businesses are people that you need to look after as well. so I guess. It's just a bit of advice really. [00:55:00] for me it's when I'm feeling overwhelmed and there's too much, I get organised.

So I start writing things down so it's out of my head. Because it's only because it's in my head that I feel overwhelmed. So write it down and only look at the things that you can control. So the, aspects of life that are important to me. Or it belongs somewhere else. I don't need to address those in such a way where I feel overwhelmed.

so focusing on those, focus on the things that you can influence, focus on, how your attitude is. So even just to getting up in the morning and you're feeling like, I don't want to face the day, actually finding those, those points in your day where you are feeling overwhelmed, those things that you can control, crack on, get that, get them done.

but those, you can't just put them to one side until such time that you can, you can look at them.

Raj: You heard it there from a psychologist and an organisational change expert. So well, [00:56:00] thank you, Rebecca, for being on 'We Got You'. Wish you a pleasant week ahead and 

Rebecca: thanks Raj, take care.