Not the Plot
Conversations about books, art and living a creative life.
Not the Plot
Brenton Cullen - On writing, reading, and staying the distance
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Brenton Cullen is a Queensland writer, bookseller and passionate advocate for children’s literature. He writes stories from the heart for all ages, with a particular love for picture books and middle-grade fiction.
He has written articles, interviewed authors and reviewed children’s books. His debut middle-grade novel The Prime Minister Problem is released in April by Riveted Press, and he has three more books coming out over the next year.
In this episode of Not the Plot Brenton chats with host Teena Raffa-Mulligan about his path to publication, finding a writing process that works for him, dealing with self-doubt, and spreading the word about the importance of reading.
He also shares his three top tips for aspiring authors:
Love what you're doing.
Find your tribe and get involved in that community.
Keep going. Don't give up.
To find out more about Brenton visit his website at https://www.brentoncullen.com/
or follow him on FB at https://www.facebook.com/people/Brenton-Cullen-Childrens-Author/61566492037896/
Thank you for listening.
Find out more about Not the Plot host Teena Raffa-Mulligan at https://www.teenaraffamulligan.com or follow her FB author page https://www.facebook.com/TeenaRaffaMulligan You can also sign up for her occasional newsletter at http://bit.ly/2gqsJz3
Hi, and welcome to Not the Plot, the podcast that seeks out the inside stories on the creative lives of writers and artists. I'm Tina Rafa Mulligan, lifelong reader, writer, sometime artist, and daydream believer. I've always been interested in finding out what inspires writers and artists to create what they do and how they navigate the inevitable highs and lows of their creative life. Let's find out what today's guest has to say. Brenton Cullen is a Queensland writer, bookseller, and passionate advocate for children's literature. He writes stories from the heart for all ages with a particular love for picture books and middle grade fiction. He has written articles, interviewed authors and reviewed children's books. His debut middle grade novel, The Prime Minister Problem, is released in April by Riveted Press, and he has three more books coming out over the next year. Brenton, welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Teena Raffa-MulliganHow does it feel to be on the verge of having your first release?
SPEAKER_01It's very mixed emotions. I think like very, very excited, but also very uh overwhelming at the same time because it's quite nerve-wracking to think it's going to be out there in the world, and how will people react? And people I don't even know are going to read it. So I'm really just looking forward to release day and sort of feeling that accomplishment that's sort of been building and building. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.
Teena Raffa-MulliganIs this something that you wanted to do from the time you were young?
SPEAKER_01I really think I was just born with this gene of loving books and loving writing and loving reading because I really never wanted to be or do anything else. From the age of six, I was, you know, writing my own stories and stapling my own books together and illustrating them. And it was when I was about nine years old, I started sending stories to publishers and to magazines and newspapers. You know, I I was very sort of precocious as a kid and I was very determined. And so it's always been writing, always.
Teena Raffa-MulliganWhat is it about writing for children that draws you to it?
SPEAKER_01I think because when I was a child, reading books was such a huge part of my life that gave me great joy. And I rem I remember the emotions of being a kid very strongly. They sort of fit right here in my chest, very close to the surface. So when I'm writing a story or working on a book for children, it's like I can put myself back at that age that I was, that the audience reading my book will be. So I I feel that I can tap into that emotion and that connection and that power that a book has on a kid's life because the books that you read when you're a kid are so influential. And if you ask any adult the book that they remember the most, it's so often a picture book or a chapter book from when they were a kid, and it really, really uh made an impact and influence on them. So I love that writing kids' books can have that power.
Teena Raffa-MulliganIt sounds like when you were growing up, you were surrounded by books that you had lots of opportunity to pursue your dream of being a writer. That's very young to have been submitting to publishers. So you would have had a lot of encouragement along the way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, my mum was always supportive, always encouraging. You know, she she bought me books. It was always books for birthday presents and Christmas presents, and she took me to bookstores and took me to the library, and my gran and my grandma were the same, uh, lending me books, introducing me to Anne of Green Gables when I was eight, and Agatha Christie books. I was, you know, very young and just a voracious reader because it was it was never seen as an anomaly or something different. It was just books were always everywhere in the home. At the school library, you know, it was just a place to go that was just second nature to me. And teachers, my teachers also really encouraged my creative writing. We always had uh, you know, great opportunities of reading aloud in class and reading stories to ourselves in silent time in class. So it was something that was always there. So I never thought it was different to love books or love reading or love writing because it just seemed so much a part of the world I was growing up in.
Teena Raffa-MulliganA perfect environment to nurture someone who's going to go forward and actually become a writer. Is there any particular writer who has influenced the way you write?
SPEAKER_01I think there's there's so many. I think all of the authors that I read as a kid really sort of shaped and moulded the kinds of stories that I like to read when I was a kid, and still the ones that I like to read now are like some of the main ones that really inspired me when I was growing up were Jackie French, Emily Rodder, Ann M. Martin, Libby Gleason, Duncan Ball, Sally Odgers, Wendy Orr, so many authors, and I liked that they wrote different types of stories. There were very emotional sweet stories and adventurous or fantasy stories. So I I love the diversity of that. Now I'd say there's so like I'm friends with so many children's authors, so it's hard to narrow it down now, but I love so many writers' works. But I'd say two writers who uh whose careers currently that really inspire me, that I sort of look up to as, oh, I want to write books like they do, are Kate Gordon, Peter Carnavis, and Sonia Hartnett. I love their poetic storytelling, their beautiful writing, their way with words, and they infuse their stories with authentic themes of true life and emotions and people and experiences. And so those three authors now as an adult are the ones that I think, oh gee, if I could write a book even a tiny bit close to like how they write one, that would be the dream.
Teena Raffa-MulliganThere are so many wonderful writers for children. And as a writer, it's very easy sometimes to think, oh, I could never do that. It can be quite daunting. Do you have times when you wonder and doubt your abilities as a writer?
SPEAKER_01Every day. Honestly, it is a constant balance between doubt and faith. And every time I sit down to write, I'm scared that it won't be good enough, that no one will like it, that I that I can't do it. And one thing I've I I've heard writers talk about this a lot is that you never learn how to write a book, you just learn how to write that one specific book. And I've found that to be true because with the Prime Minister problem, it's not the first book I wrote, it's about the tens. But all the books leading up to it had a different experience on each on each of them. And now that it's being published, and I've got a few others in the works coming out afterwards, I don't feel any more accomplished or certain of anything. I feel more doubtful and more anxious now that can I write the next book? You know, sort of the second album syndrome. Can I follow it up and can I still be good? Because it's there are supporters, you know, my partner is supportive, the writing community that I'm a part of is supportive. And we all have these doubts. So it's actually quite refreshing to know that you even though you feel, oh, I'm not a good enough writer, or oh, this story is not good enough, or the publisher, I can't get a publisher to pick it up, or I don't know what I'm doing, you're not alone. Every writer, I I know writers who have published 80, 90, 150 books, and writers have published one book or five books. There is no moment when you reach there where you've made it, where you don't feel doubt, you don't feel anxiety. Across the board, all writers I've spoken to on every level always have that doubt and anxiety creeping in about their work. So that's sort of comforting in a way to know that you're not alone. So when I sit down and start a new story or I'm halfway through a story, I try to just focus on put one word down on a page at a time, and you can get there in the end that way.
Teena Raffa-MulliganThat was going to be my next question. How do you manage that sense? And you've already told me. It sounds also like having a supportive community is really important to you.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I think any any writer would say the same that you really aren't anything without that community because being a writer is very different kind of life and lifestyle, as you know, many of your listeners will know. And it's not just a nine to five job that many people in an office hold. There's so many ups and downs, there's so many highs and lows, and very specific kinds of highs and lows, and specific ups and downs. So having your colleagues who are fellow writers or fellow illustrators in your corner is great because they do know what you're going through. They get it, they share that same experience, that same joy when you get a story accepted, or they celebrate for you, they celebrate with you. And when you have the down moments, they are there to comfort you and to support you and say all the right things in those down moments as well. And supporting each other's work on social media and in person is really important. And I think the Australian Kidlet community especially is really wonderful at supporting one another. Because we're so small here in Australia. Uh, I think it's very tight-knit. So it's finding your tribe, finding a supportive writing community, whatever stage of being a writer you're at is vital, absolutely.
Teena Raffa-MulliganI would agree with you there. It's gold having your tribe, your community who fully understand what it is to put yourself on the page and then try to find readers. You mentioned that the book that you've got coming out is not by any means your first publication. You must have had a lot of rejections along the way. How did you deal with that?
SPEAKER_01There was many different stages. I I think that there were periods where I didn't deal with it. It was very disheartening. You know, it was it could be quite depressing because it's like you're running up a hill, but you never reach the top, you never reach the peak, and you just think, am I ever gonna get there? Am I not good enough? You know, that that doubt creeps in again. And in hindsight, I think even though it's it's a frustrating piece of advice, and people said it to me when I was trying to get published, but it is true, is you do simply have to just keep going. That there is no alternative, there is no magic shortcut. It really is just believing in your work, keep writing. Remember why you're writing, I'd say as well. Because there were periods I went through where I was, I just want to be published, I just really want to get a book published. And that's the wrong reason to do it. You can't realize that in the moment, though, because it's got to be the act of writing that you love. And if you love the act of writing, that makes it easier to keep going. And getting this published might seem to some people, oh, you got that accepted, and then now you've got three others coming out. It all sort of lined up, bang, bang, bang, you know, one after the other. But behind it is I'm 29 and I started submitting when I was nine. That's 20 years, 20 full years of writing, probably 200 picture book stories, probably 20 or 30 novels over and over. So much of it was really rubbish, but just trying to improve my writing, improve my skills. And it it is hard. And it and it it I think it's important to share with people, share with aspiring writers that it's meant to be difficult in that it's not easy as it might seem. Like some people might seem, oh, that person got it so easily, or that person's having all this success. There's so much work behind it. There is no overnight success for anyone. So dealing with it and support from your community, the writing community, is a great way to deal with it as well.
Teena Raffa-MulliganThere's always a backstory, isn't there? Everything that goes on behind the scenes that people on the outside don't see. Any creative life is challenging. You're right when you say that we need to focus on the actual process of creating, whether it's writing or any other field that we choose to put our energy into. What is your particular writing process like? Are you disciplined? Do you write every day?
SPEAKER_01It really varies for me. I think in the past I was much more disciplined. It was sort of I've got to sit down at, you know, 6 a.m. in the morning when I get up, and I've got to write this amount of pages or write this amount of words. And I found that that didn't always work for me. And it led to me sort of feeling burnt out or pushing myself too hard. And I would then have small periods of time when I just I was too burnt out to keep writing because I was trying to have a writing process that wasn't meant for me because I had read other people had it like this, or other people did it like that. So I think I had to find my own way of doing it, my own process. So now what I what I do is get up in the morning, I try to go to the computer straight away and write 250 words. That's sort of like a warm-up. And then I will, you know, go have breakfast or you know, go take a walk, make the bed, do that sort of thing, and then come back. And some people do it as oh, I'm gonna write X amount of hours a day. I try to do it by pages. If I can get two pages minimum in a day, that's great. And often I'll go over that, and that's even better. But if I don't make it, if I don't make the minimum two pages, I don't beat myself up about it because that makes it worse. I try to let it go with the flow. You know, some days I have day jobs as well, so you're not, you know, mentally feeling very creative or or you're feeling too tired. So giving myself a break when it's needed is definitely part of the process. And also knowing that it doesn't have to be the nine to five set hours. I will often write that little bit in the morning at 6 or 7 a.m. And then I might do other things in the morning. And then at six o'clock at night, I'll come back and do a lot more work. It so I guess my process is quite loose, but there is something almost every day, at least something is written, or at least I'm thinking about things. The back of my head, my subconscious is working on story problems, so I'm always thinking about the story. But I think it's just making sure that I'm being kind to myself. That's something I'm introducing to my process more now.
Teena Raffa-MulliganI think that is probably a better way to go than trying to force yourself into a routine that doesn't fit. I always, now that I'm older and have a lot of years of writing under my belt, I usually say to anyone who wants to be a writer, find the way that works for you. And it won't be the way that works for someone else. You've found this truth quite early. Yeah. So that that's good fortune. And as long as it works for you, that's the most important thing.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
Teena Raffa-MulliganYou write across genres. What do you hope that readers will take away from your books regardless of what their age is?
SPEAKER_01Well, I hope they would I guess number one, in enjoy the story, whatever the story is. I hope that it will give them entertainment and joy and be able to escape from the real world for a couple of hours. I think a big thing that I'm interested in is the human condition and human experience, especially empathy. So if people can read any of the books I write and put themselves in a character's shoes that might not be a person who has the same life as they do, then I think that would be a really wonderful sort of you know, cherry on the top of the icing of the cake, is to have a bit of have more empathy in the world, learn about someone who has emotions or feelings or a different home life than than the reader does. And I that that would be wonderful.
Teena Raffa-MulliganVery much needed in today's world.
SPEAKER_01I think so.
Teena Raffa-MulliganYou're a passionate advocate for children's literature. What's your feeling about the loss of reading capacity that we're seeing in a lot of young people now?
SPEAKER_01I think it's heartbreaking because reading is so important. Reading is its own reward, and if more kids could discover the magic of stories and the power of stories, and adults as well, you know, many adults really need to read more. And I know it's so easy to say, but you can read for 10 minutes a day, replace scrolling on TikTok or looking at social media or whatever with reading for just 10 minutes, and it really makes a difference. And, you know, I see all the reports about falling literacy rates in schools and the cutting of school libraries and school librarians, the closing of council libraries and the you know, censoring of books. And I think about when I was a kid and the importance of books and the importance of reading, and especially for quiet kids or creative kids who really connect with stories, to know that there's kids out there now who don't have access to books that they deserve is really, really terrible news. And you know, nothing I'm saying is news. So many people say the same thing, so many people who have much higher expertise than I do, of course. But in my opinion, I just think modeling reading needs to come back, it needs to be treated as important and vital for the community and for the country as sports is. You know, literature is very important in Australia, and I don't think we celebrate and respect it as we should.
Teena Raffa-MulliganAgreed. What are you personally doing to effect some kind of change?
SPEAKER_01Well, what I like to personally do is encourage and support other authors and other books. I like to get the word out about maybe lesser-known books or lesser-known authors. Uh, I write review book reviews for several publications. I interview authors as well. I work in a bookstore. I've worked in bookstores for about 16 years and always a special interest in the children's literature section. So I really try to encourage when I'm at work in the bookstore, recommendations to Parents and grandparents and kids and school teachers, I give you know books as gifts to my niece and my nephew. And just showing that books do have power and they are special. And yeah, I think, you know, I haven't begun doing this yet, but I think if when I begin doing sort of talks at schools or at libraries, um, after my uh, you know, I've got my published books out, I think sort of trying to spread the word in my small way by speaking to the students uh in those uh spaces is you know something small that I can do. I don't mean to sound doom and gloom. I do think there is great hope because there are so many people in the Australian children's book world who feel the same way as both of us do and are spreading the word. And teacher librarians are amazing with you know, sharing with their students and authors visiting schools. And uh, you know, we have the Australian Children's Laureate, Andy Griffiths, now, and all of that is such important ways to spread the word about books. It might seem a bit slow, I think sometimes progress can seem slow, but it's really enthusiastic and really passionate. So playing a small part by the things I do and just trying to share the love of books is I think something that everyone could do. And I I think we will get there. I think we will we will get back to that really great place where every kid can love a book. They just need to find the right book and have adults in their lives who advocate reading.
Teena Raffa-MulliganSometimes I think it's too easy for us to underestimate how we as individuals doing our small part in our small community area can reach out and have a much bigger impact than we could imagine. So we just have to keep doing what we can, don't we?
SPEAKER_01Yes, keep going, keep going.
Teena Raffa-MulliganWhat are your feelings about AI? I'm sure, like so many of us in the creative fields, you have concerns.
SPEAKER_01It's very scary. What it's able to do is quite frightening. And I know you know so many books have been stolen by these AI services that uh, you know, use the author's work without copyright or anything. And it makes me frustrated because I think it's once again a sign of books not having the respect that they deserve, because it's seen as something that can be ripped off and you know used by these AI and chat GPT programs and things. I do worry about the future of books and the future of being an author in this country if it keeps going on. But mostly I do feel optimism because I just firmly believe that nothing will ever replace a physical book. Like many technological advances, they do seem to sort of ride a wave briefly and then disappear. But books have been around for literally thousands and thousands of years. I don't think AI will completely wipe it out. I think people want that human-made experience. They want to read a story that a person wrote and worked on, not a story that a robot wrote.
Teena Raffa-MulliganAnd there is such a difference in what I'm seeing out there now. You can tell straight away where AI has been used. There's something lacking in the content that is very clearly there when you read something that's been written by an actual person.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Teena Raffa-MulliganWhat next for you? Obviously, you'll keep writing, you'll keep spreading the word.
SPEAKER_01Keep writing, keep keep trying to spread the word. At the moment, I'm in between many projects. I've got two books I'm editing that are nearly at the end, and they'll be out, I think, in 2027 or 2028. A couple days ago, I began a new middle grade novel for primary school readers. And then there's a couple other ideas that I'm thinking of at the back of my head. So I'm working on that. Um I write articles and interview authors for Magpies magazine, which is a really great uh literary journal, the only dedicated hardcopy journal still for children's books in Australia. It's been running for 40 years. So I write several articles a year for them. So I've got some of that coming up. I guess the main thing right now is I'm on that sort of media marketing tour for the Prime Minister problem. And uh next month is the launch, and then uh at the end of May, I'll be going to Sydney for a bookshop tour. Later in the year, we're hoping to go to Melbourne and Canberra across uh hopefully South Australia as well, and just trying to spread the word about the book. But the best part I'm looking forward to is just getting back and writing the next story.
Teena Raffa-MulliganAre you finding that everything around promoting the book is taking away from your actual writing time?
SPEAKER_01At the moment, I don't think it's taking away from the writing time, but the mental space of it is, because I wrote this book a long time ago, and now I'm on to several stories later. But going back to promote it and talk about it is and like I'm filling out interview questions and doing QA's about the book. It's just sort of funny to think I'm not in the headspace of the book anymore, I'm in a different book. So that it's sort of jarring to jump back and forth between them. I'm happy to because I I think the book has important themes and it's an important story. So I obviously want people to know about it and connect with it. But I want to be a writer and I want to write. So the actual writing act itself, that's really what I love to do and really why I want to do it. So the media and marketing doesn't come naturally at all, but I understand it's an important part, and there are many enjoyable aspects, but when it's just the dedicated writing time, I think that is, you know, that's my favorite.
Teena Raffa-MulliganBecomes a bit of a balancing act sometimes.
SPEAKER_01Yes, it really is. Yes.
Teena Raffa-MulliganWhat would be your best advice for anyone who wants to become a writer?
SPEAKER_01I'd say first of all, remember your why. Why are you writing? Why do you want to write or do you want to just have written? Do you want to be a writer or do you want to actually write? Because it's very different. And like I had said earlier, I went through periods where I just want to get published. I, you know, I just want to publish a book. That's it. And that's when I was probably at my most unhappiest because I forgot my why. I forgot the joy writing gives me. And I got caught up with the product when I should have been focusing on the process. So I guess that's maybe the biggest tip I'd say is to love the act of writing itself. I know it's hard. I I have been there. It's so hard when everyone around you is getting a book deal and everyone around you is having success, and you think, when is it my turn? I trust me, I know the feeling really well. And so many people know that feeling. But you've got to love what you're writing, you've got to love what you're doing. So I'd say that's my number one. And I think, you know, as we've said before, find your writing tribe, find your community, be involved in the community is the next best thing to do. And thirdly, I'd say keep going. It's so easy to think, oh, I'm never gonna get there. I'm just gonna give up. But if you give up, then you definitely won't get there. But if you keep going, you might. You really might get there. I never expected I would finally get a book published. I I will just say, and I hope this brings comfort to anyone listening who's an aspiring writer or in a tough spot, is that just before I had my book accepted, I was going to give up writing. I was fully going to quit writing. I was uh planning on enrolling in a librarianship course at TAFE. I was going to do that. I just thought I hadn't written in months. I just thought it I'm not getting there. I've gotten literally hundreds of rejections. I can't get anywhere. And I just thought I mustn't be meant to do this. And then I won a contest. And then the prize was the publisher, a publishing company, would give you some feedback on your draft. And all I thought was, oh, maybe they'll like it, maybe they'll give me some feedback, and I can go away and fix up the book, and then maybe they'll say, okay, you can resubmit it, you know, and we'll see. No promises, but we'll see. That was the best I hoped for. And then I got on the call to get the feedback, and the publisher said, I want to publish your book. English became a second language. Honestly, I was just so speechless in that moment. My brain was fried. I couldn't believe it. I I really thought this is me who's just said I'm giving up. This is it's not getting anywhere. I hung up that call. One week later, I got an email. And my I had my second book picked up by a different company. Two book contracts in two weeks after years and years of nothing. So do not give up. You never know what the postman's gonna bring. You never know what the next email will be. I I implore you, if you love writing, you can get there. It might not look like everyone else's process or everyone else's journey, but believe me, it can happen. So I just say don't overall do not give up. Do not give up.
Teena Raffa-MulliganWell said. And on that note, thank you so much for joining me today on the podcast. It's been an absolute pleasure to chat with you and all the best with all of your forthcoming books. I hope to chat with you again soon.
SPEAKER_01Oh, thank you. Thank you, Tina. Thanks for having me. And uh that this is really lovely, and I definitely will love to be back.
Teena Raffa-MulliganThank you for listening to this episode of Not the Plot. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation and will join me again as I find out the inside stories on the creative lives of writers and artists. Until then, I'm Tina Raffa Mulligan, saying goodbye for now and happy creating.