The EFF Word
Exploring the world of "Extremely Fast Females" with Host Championship winning 16 year old "Racing Driver Daniella Sutton". No other series like this offers a personal insight into incredible women of different professions. Series One all have the same thing in common ! SPEED..
Series 2 will be a more diiverse as Daniella looks at "Formidable" Female champions in all walks of life. From Boxers to Olympians, TV Personalities and business leaders these women excel right at the top of what they do with a never say die attitude. Buckle up and get ready to tune in.
The EFF Word
RAF Fast Jet Pilot Mandy Hickson
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"Women were not allowed to be Fast Jet Pilots" - Mandy Hickson a true trailblazer. RAF Top Gun Pilot interviewed by racing driver Daniella Sutton. #The EFF Word
Hi and welcome to the F Word. I'm your racing driver and host, daniela Sutton, and I'm exploring the world of extremely fast females. This episode I'm delighted to introduce Mandy Hickson, who is an ex-RF pilot fast jet pilot. So, mandy, can you tell us a bit about yourself?
Speaker 1Certainly so. Hi, Daniela. Firstly, I love the title of your podcast, which is great. I mean, who would have thought it? The F word actually with a clever spin on it, so to speak, which is great. So a little bit of my background. I was in the Royal Air Force. I served for 17 was in the royal air force. I served for 17 years as a in the full-time reserve and then eight years as a reservist flew the tornado gr4, which think top gun, it's a fast jet, sort of a little bit like the f-15 equivalent, um and yeah, and I sort of saw active service over flying over iraq as well during the gulf war conflict okay, so you mentioned iraq.
Speaker 2So, um, my dad was actually um on operation telic in 2003 in iraq. Um he served, which is quite close to my heart. He served in the logistics corps and um obviously around that time. So can you tell us a bit about, like your experience being on the front line in warfare?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's different for everybody and, I think, depending on where you're based and what you're doing. So I was over there from 99 to 2003. Just when Gulf War II started, we had just come back. So we missed Gulf War III, sorry, gulf War Three. We missed Gulf War Two, which was Operation TELIC. So when your dad was out there, I'd have just come back, unfortunately. So we actually missed in that one.
Speaker 1But what we were doing was defending the no-fly zone over southern Iraq. So we were based in Kuwait and we would fly on a daily basis, either as a show of force or we were sometimes targeting missions, perhaps if to suppress their build-up of their enemy air defenses. Basically, um, and yeah, I mean it was. It was a very interesting time period. I mean, I was shot at by surface to air missile on one occasion which, uh, locked onto the heat of my engines. It was sent up in a heat seeking mode. Fortunately, otherwise I won't be here to tell this the tale I managed to evade it.
Speaker 1Um, and, yeah, we were. We saw some pretty dangerous missions that we were involved in when we were due to head up, but much further north, perhaps just south of baghdad, where we were due to target, um, a fiber optics building, because they're about to basically put all of our intelligence under the ground by then developing their fiber optics telecommunications systems. So, yeah, we had a whole range of different targets. Uh, and that was my role out there as well that and reconnaissance as well um so how long did it?
Speaker 2obviously, because that sounds like quite a lot it's obviously must have took quite a long time to train for that. Um, so were you during that basic training, were you trained specific for, specifically for that, and how did it work and everything?
Speaker 1yeah, so I can talk you a bit through the training. So, um, for anyone that's interested in doing this, I started off flying when I was 13, but at that stage of life women weren't allowed to be pilots in the air force. So I'd chosen a career that didn't exist, but I chipped away at it. I took every opportunity that was available to myself at school, every leadership position from you know prefix up to head girl. I was a real joiner. I joined all the different clubs outside. So I was in the Air Cadets, I was in the guides which led me to become the Rangers. I did my Duke of Edinburgh award scheme. So I did all of those sorts of things because I felt it would put me in a good position if they did change the rules. And I gained a flying scholarship From that. I got my private pilot's license. So I'm now 17 and I can fly an aeroplane before I can actually drive a car.
Speaker 1And then I went off to university and I joined the university air squadron, which is like a continuation of the air cadets, and I continued the university air squadron, which is like a continuation of the air cadets, and I continued to fly with them. And it was my second year at uni they changed the rules and I applied and I eventually got in. I failed all the tests initially, but again perseverance got in and it took me nearly four and a half years to reach the front line. So it's a little bit like doing medicine, you know, a five-year degree type thing. So that was the sort of time period that it would be taking. It can go up or down dependent on how many people are going through the system at the time.
Speaker 1And you start by flying something that goes at about 120 miles an hour For myself that was called the Firefly and then you progress.
Speaker 1After that, when you would go on to myself, it was called the Tucano, it's now the Texan. That goes at double the speed, so 240 to 300 miles per hour and then, if you pass that course, you will be streamed to fly fast jets and you would then go and fly the Hawk, which is based at RAF Valley in Anglesey, and the Hawk is what the Red Arrows fly so many people have seen those displaying at air shows and that now goes in the sort of speed range of 420 to 500 miles an hour. Um, and when you pass that course, then you get streamed to fly the fast jets that are on the front line. So for the people now that's the typhoon or the f-35, the lightning and um, and they're going at a lot of well, let's just say, faster than that. Even so, the tornado, I think you it's going, it can certainly fly up to, you know, mach 1. And you're breaking the speed of sound, and the jets that are around at the moment are certainly doing that quite easily.
Speaker 2That sounds quite interesting. So what's the quickest? You've actually been, then, in aircraft.
Speaker 1It was actually in a T f3, I hate to say, which is the fighter variety and I was on a training sortie with a colleague and we were sort of fairly low level over the sea and we basically explored the envelope. We went up to about 1.2. So, um, 1.2 mac and the the bizarre thing is is that you know people sort of hear this big boom and they think you know, like, think about the Concorde days and hearing this, you know breaking the sound barrier. When you're actually in the aircraft and you're flying it, you only have one indication that you've broken the speed of sound and that is the Mac meter and all it does is that you see it's gone through Mac one. You don't notice it because that boom is happening behind you. So it's not like you get this bolt and you know, and you're shaking or anything like that. Um, you're simply, yeah, going pretty damn fast, yeah, so it's quite interesting.
Speaker 2So of course, you experience quite a lot of g-forces when pulling um, like vertical maneuvers and stuff um. So f1 drivers can experience around 6Gs under deceleration, braking and cornering, and I've read that fast jet pilots can experience around 9Gs sometimes in some scenarios. So what's it like to actually experience that?
Speaker 1Well, 9g is pretty brutal. So fortunately for the Tornado GR4, which was the one that I flew, you wouldn't really be experiencing really you experiencing really huge amounts of G-force, particularly because you were often carrying weapons, fuel tanks and all of those things that hang off. It limit how much G you can pull. So I think a typical turn you'd be basically pulling up to about 4G. Now what you're wearing is a G-suit, which I don't believe they wear in Formula One cars, and the G-suit is basically like a pair of cowboy chaps, if you can imagine like they're sort of like these trousers and you wear them on your lower half.
Speaker 1What we did in the tornado, in the um eurofighter, in the um typhoon and eurofighter the um sorry, oh gosh, complete the typhoon. They basically wear a g-suit on their upper body as well and what it is is these tiny pockets of air, these like cushions effect, and when you wear them it's plugged into the g, the anti-g system of the air for aircraft, and as you pull g-force, these little pockets of air expand and they compress around your arms and around your legs and they prevent the blood from pooling in your extremities. So if they're stopping it from getting into your legs and your arms. It's keeping it in your central position and therefore keeping it more likely to be in your head. Because if you don't wear those and you suddenly snap a huge amount of G-force, what often happens is you go into G, g-induced loss of consciousness.
Speaker 1So g-lock which can be really really dangerous if you're flying and I've experienced that once before, but 9g is, they say it's your body becomes the same weight as a formula one car. So that's how heavy you are because you aren't quite literally pinned in your seat. And I was doing some trials where they kept on putting me in this spiral down turn. We were hitting like constant 9G and I was there again and just look over your head. I was like I can't move my head. I'm literally like stuck in position, really worried that you're going to strain and damage your neck actually.
Speaker 2So it's pretty tough um, so do you train as a fighter pilot? So in f1 the drivers train extensively for their fitness to actually withstand the forces of the g's. Um so do you have a specific fitness regime that you stick to as a pilot, or?
Speaker 1well, they've got much better at that now because, to be honest, when I was flying them which I qualified 25 years ago on type, which just makes me feel so old Actually there was nothing really around. You know, there was. There was sort of like oh, you know, some of us were into our fitness I was always into my fitness but there was definitely nothing. For let's go to the gym and if you watch what they're doing in the gym now Formula One drivers, you know they're doing sort of weights with their neck. They're actually sort of strengthening the muscles around the neck. We didn't do anything like that. We have this annual fitness test which was like a bleep test and it was like and with a few press-ups and sit-ups thrown in and it was like crack on um.
Speaker 1But no, they've got much, much better than that, because quite a lot of people, of course, suffered from neck injuries as a consequence of pulling g-force. And if you, it wasn't quite as bad for the pilot because you knew what was coming, because you're flying it. But if you were sitting in the back seat as a as a an observer or weapon systems operator or navigator and your head was down looking at a map and then suddenly the pilot in the front pulls a lot of g and if you're in the wrong position, you know you could be seriously um damaged, you know, from your neck and your back. So you have to be really careful yeah, of course.
Speaker 2Um, like you mentioned, with the weights and everything. Like I go to the gym as a racing driver and do a lot of cardio fitness just to withstand, yeah, um, whatever gets thrown at me, because, uh, if you're fitter in your body, then you can be fitter in your mind when you're racing yeah, completely.
Speaker 1And and you know how much sort of g-force would you um experience in the driving?
Speaker 2that you do so in karting. I think I've seen someone pull up to about two d's around a racer, which is, I think it's probably more than what we pull in cars, just because we have suspension in cars, um, yeah, that cushions the, the braking, acceleration, the impacts and everything like that. Um, but in karting there's no suspension, it's just gosh, that's quite bumpy, isn't it yeah?
Speaker 2so when you're going over um curves at like 70 miles per hour in a in a car, it's a lot less than going over a curb at 70 in a in a car. Um, what's your max speed then that you would do in a in a car?
Speaker 1it's a lot less than going over a curb at 70 in a in a car? Um, what's your max speed then that you would do in a cart?
Speaker 2uh, so in a cart I've, I think I've called around 70 to 80 miles per hour um in a car um around 110 miles per hour um on a track. Uh, yeah, so I think uh, 110 miles per hour on snettetum okay, has the longest straight um in the uk, um, so you go down and it's just like it takes forever to get down that straight, but especially if you're behind another car, then you can pull about 110 miles per hour. Um, uh, also at froxton as well. That has actually. I might tell a lie.
Speaker 1I think froxton might have the longest straight, but it's not very straight, it's kind of then I used to fly froxton actually, and used to watch them all racing around the track beneath me. Actually I was flying. Where were you based then when you flew over, uh, boscombe, boscombe dam? So we weren't that far from Thruxton, so I used to go flying. We had a contract there and I could go flying with them. But I did a race day the other day actually.
Speaker 1It was my son's 21st and so I treated him to this three-car racing experience and we went to an old, disused airfield to do it. And I can't remember the name of the car I'm terrible but um, I think it was a Mazda of some sort and it was really unusual. And the guy said, and I was going down this straight and, um, you know, and I was like really like laughing, oh my god, this is great fun. He goes. No, no, no, the turbo's not kicked in yet. And I went what I mean we're already doing like plus 90 ish, hit the turn. He just said keep it, keep your foot depressed.
Speaker 1And this turbo kicked in and I was like thrust back and I said, oh my god, he goes. Yeah, apparently it's just like taking off in a fast chair. And I sort of went yeah, it's not that dissimilar and he went what I said, oh, you supply them. He was like, oh, my god, you could have told me. So it was really funny, but my god, I couldn't take the smile off my face. I mean, it's very different doing that sort of speed on the ground compared to in the air yeah, of course, because you have all the um, the bumps and everything on the road.
Speaker 2Yeah, of course you do. Yes, um, so is there like? Um, obviously, you see in like top gun and everything. There's a hard deck, so, um, you can only go like a certain speed, um, when you're at a certain altitude. Is it similar to that in actual flying?
Speaker 1yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, if you're doing air combat, which is what you would see them doing in in top gun in the films, where they're actually like one aircraft that is like 1v1 or 2v1, you know that that hard deck is really, really important. That's your safety base and it's basically as if saying, you know what we're going to put in this false hard deck of, say, 3 000 feet and we want you to imagine that that is the ground and if you go below it, you know you potentially, because what you need to give yourself is a pull out. And if you're doing, you know even aerobatic maneuvers and things like that you'll have these what's called gates. So you could be up at 5,000 and that will be your gate which will give you enough height to pull out of that maneuver. If you and that will be your gait which will give you enough height to pull out of that maneuver if you're on speed, um, you know, at that height, you'll know it take, you'd, say, 2 000 feet to pull out that maneuver.
Speaker 1So yeah, it's very we do talk a lot about um, we have a safety altitude. So if you're ever doing any aerobatics or anything, we we use what's called the safety altitude, which uses the height of the ground plus potentially, say, 2000 feet, depending on what you're doing. If you're spinning, you might add plus a bit more as well. So, yeah, we do build in and factor in, so it's incredibly safe to be doing what we're doing yeah, so um, and obviously the speed.
Speaker 2You can't break the um sound barrier over um as well, can you?
Speaker 1no, and, and, to be honest, you don't normally do that anyway. I mean, I've done it to give you perspective. In 25 years of flying within the air force, I've only done it twice, you know, and it's just because we could um, so it's not something that you would do ordinarily and you're, you're limited to certain speeds. I mean, if you're flying low level, for example, excuse me, um over wales, you'd be limited and say you know, you can't go faster than 420. You can accelerate up to 500 knots, um, because we're, of course, talking knots, which is similar to miles per hour, but you can add a little bit more, uh, if you convert it. So, um, yeah, I mean, you're normally not going much faster than that, but if you're doing flying, perhaps in canada, in more deserted areas, then you can, you know, actually go a bit faster as well um, well, where's where's like the furthest you've been from the uk like based.
Speaker 2So obviously you said you were based in in um, iraq, um, and you've just mentioned canada as well. So were you based in canada at any point?
Navigating Male-Dominated Fields
Speaker 1yeah. So you will do detachments all over the world, basically because there's only so much practicing that you can do. Flying in the uk's green and pleasant land, you know if you're fighting a in a war in a hot desert average. You know very hot temperatures, it's got you know very different sort of dynamics when you're flying. You need to practice in those areas. So we would deploy to Arizona desert to and a big exercise called red flag, which is flying out of Nellis Air Force Base, which is just outside Las Vegas. Tough job, someone had to do it. And then we would also do what's called operational low flying. We would deploy over to canada, where it's got a much, much less you know inhabited areas, so you could be literally flying over forestry and you would not see another building at all. So you're not disturbing anyone to do that sort of practicing because obviously the uk's got, you know, a lot more higher density of population as well. So yeah, and then I've flown out in Iraq as well and Kuwait. So yeah, that's that.
Speaker 2You mentioned before as well earlier on, that females actually couldn't get into the Royal Air Force as a fast jet pilot when you were younger and when you started flying at 13. I assume it was always your passion. So what's it like being in a male dominated workplace? Because obviously, racing is male dominated as well? Um, do you have to like approach things in different ways, or how does it work?
Speaker 1yeah it's, it's a really. So. I talk a lot now and I do a lot of keynote speaking. I speak to a lot of schools as well, and one of the things I say is you know, it's really important, and the biggest lesson I learned, I think, throughout my entire career, was be unapologetically yourself, because it's so easy just to, if you're in a very male, dominated environment, to completely mould who you are, to change your behaviours to perhaps, you know, give up on some of your values, and actually that's not what we want to.
Speaker 1We don't want more people just to blend in.
Speaker 1We want people who stand out and who are happy to be themselves themselves, because there is a gulf between fitting in, which is where we constantly morph, and belonging.
Speaker 1And I think when we talk about, you know, culture, culture has shifted so much in society as a whole as well, because people are willing to stand out.
Speaker 1And's why I'm just so thrilled that we embrace that and we've got so much more positivity around different you know different people, be it their gender, be it their cultures, whatever it is, their belief sets, and I think that's so important because, you know, if we got a more diverse population, then we're going to get different results as well. And I think if you just only recruit the same sort of people into, say, like the air force, then you're only going to ever have those same sort of people working there with the same ideas. Um and so, yeah, for years I did try and mold into being one of the guys and then actually I realized I was never going to be that happy if I did that. But it takes a lot of character and you've got to be quite strong in your own you know, in your own beliefs and who you are on confidence to say actually I, I'm happy to be me.
Speaker 2I said in one speech I think I'm happy to not be a man and be a Mandy. I like that quote. So in Top Gun as well we mentioned Top Gun earlier Maverick pulls off, he hits the brakes and flies right by. That's one of his famous quotes by Tom Cruise. So does anything like that actually happen? Is that a legit manoeuvre or is it just Hollywood?
Speaker 1I've never really seen anyone hit the brakes and they fly right by, but you know there are. I mean, a lot of the flying scenes are quite realistic. It's what sort of training that you do do? I did meet Tom Cruise. There you go. That's my name drop. Training that you do do I did meet Tom Cruise? There you go. That's my name drop. In fact, yeah, surprisingly, that's my pinned post on Instagram is me meeting Tom Cruise. But no, it was great and I was chatting to him.
Speaker 1And when I went to see the movie, it was so funny because I went to see it with my son, who was 19 at the time. He just said Mom, it's not a documentary, can you stop this running commentary? Well, that happen. Well, that's not right, um. And I said to tom, um to tom, because he and I are obviously best friends now, um, I said to him you know, it's a shame that you won't ever be able to make another top gun, maverick, because you've you've ejected too many times and you're now grounded in as far as the air force is concerned. He said I think you'll find it's called hollywood otherwise. Yeah, that's fair enough. Okay, I'll get back in my box. You're like um, but uh, yeah, no, a lot of the flying scenes were just brilliant. I mean, I absolutely loved it, um, you know, and it has, of course, got the sparkle of Hollywood on top of it, but that's fair enough, I think.
Speaker 2I mean, my dad introduced me to Top Gun, the original, which is actually my favorite film of all time. Um, when I was younger, when I was probably about six, he used to watch all the old films with me and the ones that he was younger, um, so like Rush, um, which is a racing uh film, yeah, and um, he'd watch all of these old films with me. So actually, um, I wanted to be a fast jet pilot in the RAF. Um, it was my dream to be a fast jet pilot. But the RAF, it was my dream to be a fast jet pilot, but because of my juvenile arthritis, which we talked about earlier, that's a disqualifying factor. Yeah, medical grounds.
Speaker 2So obviously I don't complain because I'm now a racing driver. So I still get to go quite fast speeds on the ground, which suits me perfectly. Speed is in my blood. I just get to go quite fast speeds on the ground, which suits me perfectly. Speed is in my blood. I just wanted to know has there ever been any setbacks that you've experienced and influences in your life that led you to keep persevering and have that determination to carry on and lead your life?
Speaker 1Yeah, absolutely Well. Role model wise, my grandpa was was very influential to myself when I was growing up and actually he'd been a pilot in the second world war and he shared his stories with me. Um, and then my mum encouraged me to join the air cadets and and that's when I sort of flew for the first time and loved it. And I think when I spoke to the pilot I said to him excuse me, sir, to get paid for this, he said it's my job, my career, and I it's the first time I'd sort of put two and two together that you could actually do something as a career that you were passionate about, not just something that you had to go to work to get paid. And I think that's what really sort of you know, lit the fire to follow my dream as well. And also Top Gun as well was round as well, in sort of what was it? 86, which you know I was 13 at the time when that was out, and so all of those coming together.
Speaker 1And then when I applied to join the Air Force, I failed initially the medical, because I was told I had an obesity problem, because the height charts for women only went up to five foot eight and I was six foot tall, and so they said, oh, I should be nine and a bit stone or something. And I was like what? And they said, yeah, how are you going to remedy your obesity issue? And I was thinking, and I was like what? And they said, yeah, how are you going to remedy your obesity issue? And I was thinking, crikey, I had to lose three and a half stone. So I did it. I lost three and a half stone in weight, cut a leg off, I think basically was the only way. But I did that with a brutal diet when I was doing my A-levels Lost the weight, got the flying scholarship, put the weight back on thank goodness Be. And then, when they changed the rules and allowed women to join, I applied and I failed every single one of the aptitude tests.
Speaker 1So if it hadn't been for the boss of that university squadron saying, hold on a minute, mandy's quite a good pilot, why can't she pass the tests? He didn't look at the tests and say, well, she's failed, so she's no good, he decided to challenge the Air Force on my behalf, and so you know, I had people who were behind me so much of the time as well, and you know my mum would always say and I think it sounds like your dad's been probably one of those supporters for yourself is that you know, if it's going to be someone, why shouldn't it be you? And if you're doing all the right things, you know, yes, there might be a little bit of luck that's needed on the way, but ultimately, why shouldn't it be you? And I think it's about having that belief that you can do things and you know, and if you can facilitate that by doing things that put in place the steps to make it easy to achieve those goals. And so, yeah, I was very lucky to have that and, as I was going through flying training as well, I had some brilliant course mates who really helped me out as well.
Speaker 1So that whole teamwork thing's really, really important. So I think it's about surrounding yourself with people who inspire you, who believe in you, and you can do that. Vice versa, we would call it the trusted wingman, you know, or wingwoman, which is like I'll be honest, danielle, and you reached out and asked me to come on this podcast. I don't always say yes to them all and I thought you know, good for you. You know, you're meeting people, you're in, you're hopefully going to inspire other people and you're having the confidence to put yourself out there and do something different to hopefully reach a different audience, and you know I've got a huge respect to you for doing that as well.
Speaker 2Thank you and, as you probably know, that the UK has just built two Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and, although these are great assets to the UK, do you think that AI and unmanned aircraft, um will roll out or um will your own role as a fighter pilot become a dying breed at some point and the evolution of battle and the battle space will change to the point and flight will become unmanned in the future?
Speaker 1I think it's a really good question and I think it's. I mean, if you look at what we're doing perhaps in the Air Force at the moment under Space Command, we're looking at UAVs, unmanned aerial vehicles all the time the progression of drones. They're being used already in the workspace, in battlefield management as well, and so people are now recruited to go in straight away as drone pilots. So you're not even going in as a pilot and then saying, oh, would you mind flying drones? You know you are actually recruited, knowing you will never actually step into an actual aircraft and something that suits some people as well. So we're going to see more and more of that. Of course we are, but they're very much looking at perhaps sort of combined airspace scenarios whereby you have perhaps one manned vehicle and then almost a formation of drones with you so that you've got somebody that's thinking, you know, in that moment, in that exact space.
Speaker 1But I think of course we're going to see huge advances in unmanned aerial vehicles all the time, because we'd be crazy to not think that. And if you think you don't have to have a pilot who's a in danger and b, you don't have to put all of that technology of like the ejection seats, the weight and all of those things having a manned vehicle, then ultimately you're going to be able to carry a better payload and you'll be able to perhaps carry more fuel, perhaps more weapons and all of those things that actually are going to make a difference, and and you can fly those from the UK. You know, you often only have one person in a theatre who is there for the takeoff and landing. The rest of it is completely flown remotely from the UK or it was originally from America. So yeah, we will see more and more of that, but I think it's interesting when you read that across to the commercial world, would passengers ever be happy to fly with an unmanned commercial aircraft?
Speaker 2For now we still have, obviously we still have fast jet pilots and that's really exciting for people who want to get into that field. And obviously, here you are now and you're doing motivational speaking now, is that right?
Inspiring Youth in Aviation
Speaker 1yeah, that's right. Yeah, I mean, I've traveled the last 12 years. I left 12 years ago and for probably the last 10 years I've been, um, speaking all over the world um, really busy. I probably do two or three a week and, yeah, it's great. I travel a lot. I get to share my story, um, I have written a book which you know has sold about 35,000 copies and that's been great. So a lot of young people have read that and hopefully it's inspired them to follow their dreams, be that whether it's going into, you know, flying, or going into whatever, but just doing something different and having that choice that's now available is fantastic. So, yeah, I absolutely love the role I've got now.
Speaker 2Well, mandy Mandy, it's definitely been a pleasure to have you on this podcast and hopefully it can inspire more young people and young girls to feel a future in the Royal Air Force is for them. So thank you so much, and this is the F word. Thank you for tuning in and see you all next time. Bye.