Jeffrey Deskovic on Law School, Justice Reform & Advocacy

Miguel sits down with first-generation lawyer Jeffrey Deskovic to discuss his wrongful conviction at age 16, his exoneration through DNA evidence, and how his experience inspired him to found the Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice. Jeffrey shares how his nonprofit has helped free 15 wrongfully convicted individuals and supported nine criminal justice reforms. He also reflects on his decision to attend the Elisabeth Haub School of Law, offers practical advice for succeeding in law school, and discusses the challenges of nonprofit leadership, criminal justice reform, and how others can support the mission.

00:00 Welcome to First Gen 101

00:31 Wrongful Conviction Story

02:07 Freedom and Advocacy Path

04:41 Why Law School at Pace

06:59 Preparing for 1L Success

10:43 1L Reality Check

13:55 Study Groups and Support

15:33 Finding Mentors in Law

19:57 How Law School Changed Him

22:51 Inside Deskovic Foundation

24:49 Running a Nonprofit Daily

28:53 Policy Goals and Active Cases

32:26 Advice for Future Advocates

35:24 Lessons and How to Help

41:11 Final Advice and Farewell

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Transcript

Miguel Sanchez 0:00

Hello, everyone. This is the First Gen 101 Podcast, where first generation graduates share their stories and career tips. Today we have a first gen lawyer who is doing amazing work in the nonprofit sector. Welcome, Jeffrey.

Jeffrey Deskovic 0:15

Thank you, Miguel. Pleasure to be here.

Miguel Sanchez 0:18

Jeff, before we get into your experience as a law student And you work at the Deskovic Foundation. Tell me about your experiences with the legal system

Jeffrey Deskovic 0:31

I got interested into wrongful conviction because that, that happened to me. So I, I was arrested when I was 16 for, in Westchester County, Peekskill specifically, uh, for murder and rape, which I didn't commit. The victim was a high, a high school classmate that I barely knew. I ultimately was wrongfully convicted despite the DNA not matching me, uh, based on a coerced false confession, prosecutorial misconduct, fraud by the medical examiner, a terrible public defender. I was charged and tried as an adult. I was sentenced as an adult. I was given a 15 to life sentence where I was sent to, was sent to a men's maximum security prison. Along the way, I lost seven appeals. I got turned down for parole largely because I maintained my innocence rather than expressing remorse and taking responsibility at the parole board. Ultimately, I was exonerated through further DNA testing through the DNA data bank that not only proved my innocence, but simultaneously identified the actual perpetrator, whose DNA was only in the data bank because, left free while I was doing time for this crime, he killed a second victim just three and a half years later who was a school teacher and had three children. So my charges were dismissed on actual innocence grounds. He was subsequently arrested and convicted. So that's why I got into, into wrongful conviction. I feel a strong moral conviction within myself to do whatever I can in order to free people in the same position that I was in. You know, and, and to prevent what happened to me from happening to others so, hence doing advocacy work. What that looked like for my first five years of freedom, I used to speak or I was a columnist for the Westchester Guardian. I used to do, meet with elected officials, and I would do television, radio, print, and ultimately new media interviews. Supplementing my informal learning, doing, which I did at the same time as my advocacy work with formal education. I finished a bachelor's degree, as I had obtained a GED and associate's in another year towards the bachelor's while in prison before funding was cut. So I got the bachelor's on the outside. Didn't get into law school, didn't do well on the L- L- LSAT, but then I decided to get an, further education. I got the master's degree. My thesis was written on wrongful conviction causes and reform. And I felt like the extra credential would make me a better advocate, which, which it did. Got compensated, started the Deskovic Foundation, continuing that work, but being able to free people, which is something obviously beyond the scope of what I could do as an individual. And then at some point, I got tired of sitting in the front row, so I used a portion of that money. It's a public figure, so I donated a million and a half dollars of my money to start the organization to free people. So, you know, um, I'm... I ma- I make sense of everything that happened to me in a kaleidoscopic way. I know I'm doing what I'm supposed to do in the world. Doing advocacy work, it's healing. It's cathartic. It makes a- a difference. It makes my suffering count for something. And with that, you know, I, I have a sense of inner peace doing this work. Mm. Maybe the last thing I'll mention about this part of it is, you know, I'm not an angry person. I want to enjoy my life as much as I can. I can't do that if I'm angry or bitter. Mm. If I was to be angry or bitter, I, I would really be the only loser in that scenario. No- it's not like I'm impacting the other, other people that had a hand in, in what happened to me. And I lost so much already as is, so I don't wanna lose even more. And the vehicle allows me to actualize that as I take that energy that I feel, and I channel it into the work.

Miguel Sanchez 4:01

Some people would come out and be bitter and angry, and maybe take their life in a different direction. But in your situation, you took that and have now turned that into good, helping people. But what I really liked about is that, you know, that's what gives you inner peace, because I'm sure that there was a lot of loss, life and opportunities while you were in prison. And so reminding yourself, "This is what gives me peace," I think is really remarkable. We can be angry and upset for many things, and I'm not trying to, to compare the two, but really maintaining that inner peace and channeling that energy in a way that's positive. So on that note, let's talk about your law school experience. So I met Jeff when he was a law student at the Elisabeth Haub School of Law at Pace University, So let's start there, Jeff. How did you decide you wanted to go to law school?

Jeffrey Deskovic 4:58

Well, I, I run a nonprofit agency, and our mission is to free, innocent people, who are in prison for crimes they didn't commit, and also pursue policy changes, which is designed at making the system, more, more accurate. Mm-hmm. And so after a while, after founding the organization, which we've freed 15 people, helped pass nine laws, somewhere along the line, I, I got tired of sitting in the front row of the courtroom. I wanted to be able to sit at the defense table, represent some of the clients, make some of the arguments, hence wanting to go to law school. I selected the, Elizabeth Haub School of Law at Pace University as my preferred choice, because i- it's the only law school that's located in Westchester. There's a special connection to my story regarding White Plains, this was the only law school that would allow me to continue living in my home, continue my life, my friends, my advocacy work. My whole world is here. this is a short commute from my home to the school, about a half an hour. The other law school was four hours away, but it might as well... and it, it might as well have been in another country. I d- Right I, I would've been leaving my whole life behind, which I would've done rather than not go to law school at all, but why not have the best of, uh, of, uh, both worlds?

Miguel Sanchez 6:09

The location is important. You may need to go to a law school that's within a few miles because you might have other, responsibilities that you need to take care of. And as you're deciding where to go to law school, most people, they have sort of names in mind, which is great, but location might be one of the things to keep in mind to help you be successful. Um, so just, I just wanted to highlight that 'cause I think that's really important, especially for first gen listeners. So, uh, for many first gen, they don't know what they don't know. They don't have a network. They don't have, family members who've, can share their experiences. Tell me about how you prepare for law school, because it's not just like going to college. It's a whole different process. How was your preparation getting ready for law school?

Jeffrey Deskovic 6:59

Well, it, it starts out with the mental preparation, law school has a reputation of being difficult. I'm, I'm here to tell everybody that, yes, the reputation is well-deserved. it's at least three levels up from undergrad work. I dare say it's a level and a half, possibly two levels up from, from master's level, where I have a master's degree also. It's at a much higher clip. the mental preparation, knowing, look, this is gonna be a bear. It is a wonderful thing I'm gonna do. I'm arming myself with a great credential. I'm gonna be able to help a lot of people, so I have to keep that in mind. But to do that, to... The path to heaven sometimes runs through hell, so I had to set my mind, I'm gonna be doing an awful lot of work here, and law school needs to be my first, second, and last obligation, along the way. And look, whatever it's going to take is going to be, is gonna be what I do. Pace Law had this great, e- opening event before the semester actually starts. I attended that, and they had a lot of great speakers. and one of them in particular, Dean D'Agostino, one of her comments really stuck out and, and, and I took it to heart, which is she said that, she made a statement to the effect of, living in the law library. Hmm. And I did that in my... And so I just made up my mind, when I'm not in class, I'm going to be i- in, in the law library. not just in between classes, but even after. I often closed the law library down, And then when it closed and the staff left, I went upstairs to the, to the, second or third floor where there was another computer lab, and there were regulars there, and I often was there until 11:00 or midnight. But that, that's what I needed in order to be able to pass the classes and, and ultimately, excel. So deciding to do that was another aspect of, preparing. But that, that's heading in. But once I got in, other tactics I adopted along the way, which I think will be useful for the listeners, 'Cause I always took, I was full-time student, so I always took four classes. maybe half the time I took five. So one of the ways I tried to make things manageable is I would print out the course syllabus ahead of time before the semester even started, and I would start making my outline for one, maybe two classes before the semester even started. I would pull the cases, cross things off, made sure I jotted down the rule, what's the exception to the rule. And then after writing it, then I would return it to my own question. So I got my question, I got my answer. So now I've touched 'cause I've, I've typed, I've, I've read, so I, I saw. I I used to have people ask me questions, so I have my hearing. So I'm using multiple senses. So by the time the semester start, it, I already knew the material for one, possibly two classes, so that the lectures were really more of a reinforcement rather than learning in the first instance. And so it almost felt like I was only taking two classes or three because the learn- I didn't have to learn everything everywhere all at once.

Miguel Sanchez 9:46

I wanna unpack a few things. One of them is, and you might agree with this now as a practicing attorney and running a foundation, that the hard work will continue. So law school in some ways prepares you to have that mental focus, um, that, resilience, and I think it's very clear in your 1L year as you're going through that process. I love the idea of develop- developing habits early and creating a routine that's gonna help you in law school, and I think that can look differently for some people because you might not need to be in the library all the time, or you might have to be in the library all the time or read ahead. So one of the takeaways here is really figure out the system that's gonna work for you and really stick to it with discipline and having that focus of looking ahead. The thing you, you mentioned, your... You mentioned all these habits and all these, uh, systems you put in place for yourself. What would you say was the most shocking, experience during your 1L? Or in other words, what was it about 1L that really shook you and, and made you think, "Okay, I'm really at a different educational journey"?

Jeffrey Deskovic 10:59

I would be remiss if I didn't, uh, share, uh, the importance of the website Quimbee. You know- Ah so you, so you go on Quimbee and then that you, you can type the cases in there and, you know, they, again, they give you a, a short like, uh, half paragraphs, uh, backstory, the facts, and then a, and then a- again, another like half paragraph to a paragraph on the legal principles, and they have questions at the end of each chapter. And so I would do the questions, and I would keep doing it till I got all of them right. Then I went to the next section, and I would keep going till I got all the questions right. Then I would do a cumulative, and I have to get all of them right before I move to the third. So it's a reinforcement. So that's one tip that worked well for me that I wanted to share. And the other thing is that to the extent that some of the listeners would be non-traditional students, older students, which I certainly was, I was in, I was in my, like my 40s. I wanna say maybe 44, 45 approximately. So I had the advantage of, being more intentional. So I wasn't there by default. My parents weren't making me. I wasn't doing it because I didn't know what else to do, so I wasn't gonna be prone to any of the dis- any of the, distractions. Now, coming to Hmm ...your, question now, uh, what made me really shake me and realize I'm in a The amount, the sheer volume of work that's required, It's a lot of reading. So that part shook me. But then also, uh, it's, it was, a, it's a lot of pressure being in law school because of the fact that a good 90% of the classes, everything, I mean everything, everything, everything is riding on the final, okay? There aren't tests or quizzes or book reports or any, any- anything, any written work. None of that. It, everything's going to be based on the final. So if you have a bad day on the final, if you get hit with some questions you weren't prepared for, that's gonna be a, that's gonna be a disaster, okay? So you have to be prepared so that you're, so that you're not, not surprised. I overprepared as a way of, having my confidence there. Only in a handful of classes would they have a midterm, and only even less classes than that, did class participation even count for, anything. So- Those things made me realize, hey, the workload here is extreme. And last thing I'll add is that we're, we're in a very real way, we're all in competition with each other because law school is graded on a curve. You're either gonna be pulled up or down, depending on what the highest score is and what the, what the most students are doing. they in effect rank you, and that impacts the grade. So that's another, that's another important thing to keep in mind

Miguel Sanchez 13:31

for many incoming students, it's going to be a new experience having to, depend on your final, So I appreciate you being clear about being prepared for your final. And again, it goes back to what your future will look like as an attorney or whatever you decide to do with your law degree. You have to be prepared because you are doing meaningful and, and rewarding work at the same time. I also wanna highlight the, the competition. A lot of listeners will often ask me, you know, "Is, is Pace Law," in this case specifically, "Is Pace Law, competitive?" And sometimes I think there's this negative connotation that people are against each other. One, there is a competition, like you mentioned, within students from a grading perspective I think law school is competitive in nature. But what's, I think, unique, and you might agree or disagree with this, that at Pace, there's no malice. People are not out there trying to hurt each other

Jeffrey Deskovic 14:28

want to agree with that and just say, just to highlight, to further emphasize, you know, uh, many students, not everybody, but a good amount, I certainly always did, we, we form study groups. Mm-hmm. You know, two, three, four people and we, we would study together, off, hours. We had a little system which I'll share real quick. Sure, please. So one person would be like the teacher, and they would be writing thing, asking questions and writing things on the whiteboard. Another person was almost like a stenographer ty- taking notes, and the other two of, the other two of us were trying to answer questions as, as best as we can. and then, and so in doing it that way, I feel like we, we taught each other, and we also reinforced and double-checked our understanding. And then we also would take pictures of the notes on the board at the end before we, erased. So that was an example of the, of the camaraderie. "Hey, you gon- you wanna study later?" So yeah, we're in competition from a grading point of view, but there, if there was malice, nobody would be studying together.

Miguel Sanchez 15:24

That's true. No, and, and I thank you for, for sharing that example. I think that really highlights the point. you talked about study groups and camaraderie. let's talk about mentors, 'cause I think they're really important in law school. w- who were or who are still, some of your mentors that you met in law school, and how those relationship built? what would you recommend to law students in finding mentors in law school

Jeffrey Deskovic 15:47

So Professor Mushlin one of my one of my favorite professors he brought his former student Chris in uh in the Civ Pro class and Chris played he played the character of uh Paul PopUp right Who was like a litigant whose whose uh son got injured by playing playing baseball with an adult And throughout the whole semester Professor Mushlin kept mentioning different When we talked about other case law he would always mention you know the application in the Paul PopUp fictitious thing But you know from that you know when I saw Chris in in the in the law library computer lab you know we we were friendly and we we talked and then we we just clicked and we just started talking throughout and he volunteered himself He said Look if you need any help tutoring on anything or if you have any questions or whatever it is And he gave me his he gave me his phone number And in fact I did call him and at different times when I was preparing for finals or I was stumped about one assignment or another I'm somebody that when when I need to like When I'm writing something and this is one class where it is involved in writing so this is when you're I forgot the technical name of it but it's pertaining to legal research and writing and you have to write a brief Okay okay uh for the for the class So I'm somebody that when I write I I have to envision what what it's gonna look like what are the general points what are the order in which I'm going to do it in and what are my transition sentences gonna be So when I was having trouble envisioning that you know I remember I consulted with him And so we con we continued that uh not just during that oneyear overlap that we had but but I also remained in touch with him postlaw school career and you know he helped me study some in in regards to the to the to the bar exam and we're still in touch today I mean as it turns out by coincidence his father lives two and a half blocks from my house Wow And so Chris lets me know when he's gonna visit his dad and you know they're r they're He invites me to come over there and we all I I come we visit we all talk and chat and everything So he's definitely was uh was a mentor And I found that a lot of thirdyear law students were willing to be that for firstyear law students And when I eventually was a thirdyear law student I did the same Uh they also had the the Dean's Scholar Program Mm which people that are on the dean's list uh you know I think in second second and third years are actually in effect teaching classes in between classes so that I did that as a reinforcement Many of them were were friendly Uh last thing I'll mention in terms of a role role model uh I had uh uh Professor Gershman one of the founding professors uh considered to be the country's leading expert on prosecutorial misconduct uh he and I had a relationship that predated my tenure as as a student We were both in the It Could Happen to You coalition doing uh policy work around criminal justice reform So we were very friendly and his door was open to me always and I always used to uh I used to consult with him about like what classes should I pick and you know sometimes um on one study topic or another and he'd give me a few tips And he always kept up with how I was doing generally I couldn't wait to get get to his office and tell him about my grades You know that would even be like after s semester when he had his hours I'd come in Hey you know I got this you know my grades here And he would always be really happy you know And and you know he he was very instrumental in my even getting into the law school you know so I I always felt proud to bring him good good grades And you know we're s we're still colleagues now Same thing with you know Professor Dorfman Adjunct Professor Ro Robin Frankel I still have professional relationships that have like a friendly side to them also even postlaw school So I think that that's a very valuable a aspect of of law school

Miguel Sanchez 19:21

I've seen this with other alums where they meet in law school and I think Dean Anderson has mentioned this during his orientation introduction where he talks about your peers will become your network So it's really important that as you go through law school that you're also intentional in how you develop relationships and really continue to build them through law school but even after law school Because I think Jeffrey would agree that e especially in New York in the type of work that he does people will see each other regularly So it is a small world where you will see your colleagues over and over so really be intentional about developing your mentorships and and with professors It's when I worked in the clinic where I met Jeff for the first time um professors have this large network right of alums and so if you're looking for an internship or a job it's very likely that alums will go back to faculty and say Hey I'm looking for an alum uh I'm sorry a student for an internship or et cetera So really be intentional about developing those relationships because they'll be able to to uh help you that way too Um I wanna talk about the Deskovic Foundation next but before I do that just to close this part of the of the episode How did law school transform you Jeff

Jeffrey Deskovic 20:44

It's changed the way that I think I'm I'm I'm a much more precise a and linear thinker

Miguel Sanchez 20:52

Mmhmm

Jeffrey Deskovic 20:52

You know like so sometime a lot of peop times people talk about things just in a general conversation nonlegal way where as long as the gist of what you're saying is correct that's that's good enough But I don't I don't think that way anymore I I'm really really precise and down down to the down to the T So that's that's that's part of it And another thing is that I think that in my effort to get a as be best grades a as as I as I as I could you know you know I would often like even on the fly when I'm writi and a lot of the questions for law school not everything is multiple choice Often you you're given topics and you have to like write many many paragraphs So I would always like double check and and improve And I'm like that in in all of my writing not just my my legal writing but even in emails I I check things a second sometimes a 13th thing and I find one thing or another to refine and or or say in a in a different in a different way or a clearer manner That's definitely a holdover effect from law school

Miguel Sanchez 21:55

That's terrific It is true that law school's help you think differently But I I like how you say about being precise and and it's funny you say that because when we talk to prospective students we we tell them Hey your application before you even start anything your law school application has to be clear and precise And I think that really separates a lot of the uh uh students who are just applying to see what happens versus the ones who have like you said in the beginning this intentional purpose and it and it goes back to precision Now many listeners wanna go to law school they want to practice law Some of them want to start a notforpro a nonprofit And before we go into the details of what a nonprofit is and how to how it's run and et cetera let's start off with tell us about the Deskovic Foundation

Jeffrey Deskovic 22:51

So our It was founded by myself and our mission is to free people who are in prison for crimes that they didn't commit and also to pursue policy changes aimed at preventing those injustices from happening in the first place So since opening our doors in 2011 uh we've been able to help free 15 people We've been able to help um pass nine laws as part of our policy work we engage in a in a fair amount of public education as well So my role as the founder of the organization is is is part of it is to be the public face of the organization Mmhmm So that means I do speaking engagements across the country some international I certainly do a lot of traditional media television radio print media Mmhmm but also uh new media for example you know po uh podcasts so that's part of what we do And we also do a fair amount of training Mmhmm So all lawyers doesn't matter uh what kind of lawyer judge if you have a law license and you're practicing law you must keep your license Yes current and active and that means you have to complete a certain number of credits called continuing legal education So I'm very diligent about that I make sure I take the classes but you can al you can teach also So I I teach a lot of like ha handson how to so that that's part of it And I've also gotten in front of like appellate courts as well the the the the staff interns court attorneys the judges themselves to to to teach And I've also um different law enforcement circles so I was a instructor in a police academy let me on the ethics like twice a year for 10 10 years coteaching I've been in front of different district attorney offices and prosecutorial groups So definitely the law license has added to my credibility and my already fairly large body of work heading into law school And so I'm I'm given opportunities to to make an impact and to teach and to share and to improve in in a myriad of ways

Miguel Sanchez 24:49

So it sounds like you're doing and correct me or give me maybe a better idea It sounds like you it's like playing tennis right Where you're doing all the running and doing a a lot of the work yourself which is a great way to keep engaged with the community and with the work that you're doing but in all that from an operations perspective because a lot of people who are thinking maybe about starting a notforprofit you know you have this great like the Deskovic Foundation this noble vision and and the mission you're doing day to day it leads up to that But from an operations perspective what has been the hardest thing of running the day to day of the foundation

Jeffrey Deskovic 25:29

Two things without a doubt the first thing is raising money Mmhmm So the theory of a nonprofit a nonprofit says I'm going to provide a service for a population that can't afford to pay for it and to cover the cost I'm going to raise money from third parties whether that's large donors mediumsized small donors whether it's crowdfunding whether it's grants from the government whether it's grant from other nonprofits that are not direct service providers whether it's a gala In reality it it should be something of each So that that really is the is is the hardest thing which is why a tip I'll give uh to people most founders myself included okay All all we're thinking about when we're contemplating starting the organization is the service we're providing but that's actually backwards Mmhmm You should be thinking about the financial side because if you don't have the operational funds to carry out the mission you know no nothing else is gonna is gonna is gonna matter so you know having board members that have you know h they're able to give or get a certain amount of money That means each year they're responsible for bringing in X amount of dollars whether they're gonna write a check themselves whether they're gonna introduce you to other people that are gonna write checks But they're responsible for doing that They need to meet with They need to they need to board needs to meet like four to five times you know a a a year but they're also credibility transfers Well I know Miguel is on the board of this organization so they must be legit because I know Miguel I don't know them but I know Miguel so if he's there they're legit So the credibility transfers are supposed to give some advice They're helping you with uh big picture things But also they're providing a an oversight aspect also too I mean the nonprofit has a is given a special tax designation so people who donate they're given a tax break as a way of inducing them to want to contribute But in exchange for that the you know the the government the g the government wants to make sure you're following the the rules and so the board members have to provide that that uh oversight So that's the biggest challenge the the the raising money part of it Um second a a close second is that I'm not just an attorney there but you know I I'm I'm I'm the I'm the president of the organization and so we raise enough money to hire an executive director By default those functions you know come to me So Mm uh I can't I I I only get to spend maybe like 30 35 of my time actually working on cases which is where my passion is The other part of the time yeah some of it's the policy work but the administrative I have to make sure everybody gets paid When grant applications are wr and I have to reread them and proof them and there's always one minor thing or another that you know one nuanced twist that isn't quite exactly the right way that I that I have to that I have to fix I have to send like you know photos and information to our our social media uh you know person So there's a lot of administrative and other things that I wish that I didn't have to do but

Miguel Sanchez 28:30

Mm

Jeffrey Deskovic 28:30

you know at but at the moment you know I I I have to cause there's no one else to no uh no one else to do them So I think that most founders just think about themselves carrying out the mission but that's it's a lot more to it than that if you're if you're the founder If you don't have an executive director to manage the daytoday that's going to be the founder's job So thinking about all all of that i is a is a key

Miguel Sanchez 28:53

you talked about the impact What are some things that you're looking ahead that really are exciting that really are sort of your motivation to keep doing the work that you're doing

Jeffrey Deskovic 29:06

So de definitely some of the some of the policy changes So coerced false confessions have caused wrongful convictions in 29 of the DNA proven wrongful convictions Uh and so three There's three pieces of legislation that we're working on um passing and that are that are bills in the New York State Legislature Um so one of them would be uh mandating that the police record all custodial interviews So current law requires them to record but there's exceptions for homicide sex offenses and drug cases So we wanna get rid of the exceptions Record everything Let's just be more transparent And by the way that's better evidence and it protects honest cops from false allegations of coercion there's a bill called a Police Deception Bill which would ban law enforcement from lying to suspects in interrogations because that that's inherently coercive And uh the Youth Interrogation Act So that's a bill which if passed would give 17yearolds and kids younger a nonwaivable right to counsel They would have to speak to a lawyer to explain to their right the rights to them so they could then decide if they wanted to waive their rights or not So that's exciting to me because youth are particularly vulnerable to coerced false confessions and many youth and even many adults for that matter really don't understand what our Fifth Amendment rights are And so that would try to breathe some life into the into the Fifth Amendment So I'm looking forward to that another thing is we're we have 11 active cases so we're waiting for decisions in in approximately nine of those either from court either from courts or from conviction review units So a conviction review unit is a is a unit within the district attorney's office themselves that's walled off from the rest of the unit and they investigate allegations of wrongful conviction So we either file applications there and you jointly reinvestigate cases So um we don't always run to court to litigate If we can do something cooperatively you know that that can be a better a approach for the client because uh if you're going to court you have to have enough evidence to win but i in an adversarial you know proceeding So you have to If you're gonna argue your client's innocent then the evidence you have for that has to reach the level of what they call clear and convincing evidence Mmhmm It's like a 70 Or if you just argued newly discovered evidence you know that evidence has to be enough that it probably would have led to a different outcome So we can think of that as like a 51 But that's if you're going to court filing postconviction motion okay We don't always have enough So for a conviction integrity unit conviction Same thing conviction review unit you don't have to have enough to win You just have to have enough there to suggest that something might be off something might be might be might be wrong And in the course of that reinvestigation additional evidence may come out that then is enough to overturn a conviction And look at the end of it if the if the unit decides they they might decide that they agree the conviction should be vacated So if both sides go to court and are a asking the judge to overturn the conviction you know there's an extremely high high rate maybe 98 of the time then then you'll then you'll that you'll you'll win And if it turns out that at the end that they don't agree to vacate you still might have found some evidence that you wouldn't have had otherwise So you know that can be part of uh you know your motion papers and and and you litigate

Miguel Sanchez 32:26

some applicant's motivation to go to law school is to advocate for criminal justice reform So tying the work that you do with your foundation, and if you were advising a, either an incoming law student or a law student, if they wanted to get into the specifics and really the m- um, the, the heart of the issues, how can they develop that? Is it through just going to law school? Should they may be doing, should they be doing internship at specific places? How would you advise them to get a better sense of what wrongful conviction looks like and how they can make an impact?

Jeffrey Deskovic 33:04

Well, I would, I would definitely advise them to do a internship at, at a entity that's doing innocence work. So in New York there's, you know, the my organization, Jeffrey Deskovic Foundation for Justice, uh, the Exoneration Initiative, which is in Brooklyn. New- New York, New York Law has a post-conviction clinic. There's the Innocence Project. So I would look for an organization that's doing... there's a coalition group, It Could Happen To You, which I'm advisory board member of. So I would look for an organization that's, that's doing the work, uh, to, to, you know, volunteer, be an intern. That's certainly one part of it. another part of it is when there's events, when there's speaking events, whether keynote speaker or, or a panel discussion, uh, I would go to it. Same thing if there's, you know, there, there's galas. A lot of organizations will offer like a student, student rate. so I would go to as many events as, as you, as, as you can. A- again, build it- building your network. Uh, I would study-- you'd learn, you'd see a lot, a lot of, uh, the organizations doing the work have first person advocates that are either doing the work or gonna attend, so you'll get a chance to talk, to, uh, talk and speak with them. And those connections are gonna be important later on. You know, if you, when you do graduate law school, you get your law degree, you apply for a job, someone being familiar with you 'cause you're already moving in those circles, you're gonna have an edge versus somebody else that's applying that do- hasn't been moving in those, uh, moving in those, uh, moving in those circles. A lot of documentaries Yes And there's also lot, you know, there's also, uh, there's also movies as well. So, uh, those, and then, you know, then learning. The National Registry of Exoneration has a lot of, uh, has a lot of information on it from a statistical point of view, but also the case summaries. Same thing on the Innocence Project's website for the DNA exoneration. So reading about the cases. They're only, like, a page long, a nice summary, but get- getting a flavor of the, of, of the cases is not just educational, but I think is inspirational.

Miguel Sanchez 34:58

I agree, and I would also highlight, Jeff didn't mention that, but in his website, at the Deskovic Foundation, you can find many, resources that Jeff has, uh, either produced himself or he has participated, interviews, TED Talks. I mean, you can learn all you need to learn about wrongful, wrongful conviction just by visiting the Deskovic Foundation. So I want to make sure I give a plug to that. And as we're coming to the end of this episode, Jeff, um, what have you learned about yourself through your work with the Deskovic Foundation?

Jeffrey Deskovic 35:36

A, a re- a reinforcement of just the tenacity. I mean, look, I, I... When I set a goal, I, I, I just don't quit. I, I don't stop. I'm, I'm going to look for a way to, to win. I'm gonna pursue that, and if I have to alter my strategy a little bit still to, to get to the promised land, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm go- I'm go- I'm going to do that. You know? It, it's, uh... When in the course of doing legal work, I remember, like, when I worked with my, like my paralegal, I remember I, I called him once. I said, "Look, I know you're gonna kill me. I know we finished our fourth draft, but I have another idea to put one more thing in. I'm gonna bring this idea over here to you." somebody, somebody's freedom, someone's life is on the line, and so we're going to go, uh, the extra, we're gonna go the extra mile. So I would share that. And the other thing is that a- as I, as I mentioned, you know, I review other people's work, but, but I'm not afraid to have other people review my work. The title, the formal education really doesn't matter, or, or who, who the idea is comes from doesn't matter. It's, it's the merits of the idea, and we think about how something's gonna play, how it'll be taken. Is there any possible way that this thing could be misinterpreted? Uh, because if it's, uh, uh, this meaning is applied to it rather than that, could that mean that we'll lose? 'Cause if so, we're gonna reword the wording so we're gonna be completely clear. Professor Gershman told me once, one word, can change your whole argument. It, it could make you win or lose, so being very intentional and, again, precise again

Miguel Sanchez 37:08

I love how you mentioned that there have been times where you've had to go to your paralegal and say, "Hey, we have to, in some ways, redo our strategy." But you also mentioned there's someone's life at stake. Always keeping the goal in mind. Even if you have to do rework, it's all worth it because it's not the work, but it's the outcome that's at stake. So I really love how you mentioned that. I think that's really good for anyone who's listening who, who's running a company or a not-for-profit. Always keep the goal in mind. And so Jeff, to end, how can our listeners support the work of the Deskovic Foundation?

Jeffrey Deskovic 37:47

Sure. So we do have a Patreon page on the, on the website, Patreon. Just go to Google and just type in, you know, uh, Patreon Deskhavik Foundation. My dream is what if, what if there was 25,000 people who were willing to sacrifice $3 to $5 a month on a recurring basis in order to free innocent people? I mean, who would miss that from their pocket? Mm. But if there were 25,000 people doing that, that would give close to a million dollars, so we could hire additional attorneys, paralegals, other essential personnel, and we could work on freeing, uh, even more people. We could work on pursuing policy changes beyond just New York, Pennsylvania, and California. My ultimate dream is to have a chapter of the Deskhavik Foundation in each state. Mm. Ultimately, i- in each country. But that, of course, will be when the public financial support, uh, is there. So the Patreon campaign's one thing. I mentioned my biggest challenge was to raise money. So, you know, my biggest challenge in doing that is, is that I didn't- I didn't come up in the ranks of business 10, 20, 30, 40 years. I wanna be able to have a short 10, 15-minute conversation. "Here's who I am. Here's my education. Here's my body of work. Here's the organization's mission. Here's our track record. Here's the metrics we could meet if we had additional funding. Is this something that appeals to you? Can we talk about it, uh, further?" So I need those introductions. If people are working at a corporation that does corporate philanthropy, just I ask just to put us on, on their radar. I do do speaking events. You know, I, I get honorariums for them. Those are always made out to the foundation as a minor income stream for our innocence work. So again, just floating us to the idea of places that bring speakers in. we, we do have internships, so I'll give a plug. Would love to have a few more, Pace... We've had a few over the years, but would love to get a, a few more, Pace Law students, so people can intern, for us. People can volunteer. If you're a retiree, would love, would love-- you wanna do something meaningful, you know, with some of your free time, would love to have you. People can reach me through the website, www.deskovic.org, D-E-S-K-O-V-I-C. There's a web form there. I, I answer the emails. follow us on, on social media, Deskovic Foundation on Instagram, Deskovic Foundation on YouTube. We have speaking, speaking events, galas. there's even some legislative testimony that I've, uh, that I, that I've given are there. Plenty of, new media and new media interviews. Lots, lots to learn that way. follow us on, Facebook as well. So those follows can-- are a way of actually helping us as, as, as well. The bigger the audience that we have, the more people see our message. And hey, maybe, maybe at some point our following will be so big that it could be possible that, you know, places would give a sponsorship in order to promote whatever service or product that they're, that they're doing. And that's the last thing I'll end with is that, you know, if you are, are-- if there is a service that, that you do provide, and you can see where there would be an application to that for a nonprofit organization, if you wanted to donate some services, that, that would be, uh, that would be welcome as well. So it's many people that work together for people that get wrongfully convicted. We need many people on many levels to help undo them.

Miguel Sanchez 40:52

Thank you. Thank you, Jeff. And, and definitely, think about that it's not the money you're, you're donating, whatever amount you believe it's in your heart to, to donate. it's, it's about helping people who really need it. Jeff, is there anything else you'd like to share with our listeners? Is there anything else that you would like to add to our episode today?

Jeffrey Deskovic 41:10

Yes. If you're thinking about law school, and I go back to myself, I debated within my own head for about three years, you know, did I wanna stay at the master's degree, you know, did I want to go to, go to law school? Did I wanna get a doctorate degree? You know, uh, my inclination was to go to law school, but then I think, well, look, this is gonna be three long, hard years. The overwhelming majority of the subjects in law school I'm gonna be studying are ultimately going to have little, nothing to do with the area of law I wanna practice. You know, so that was kind of a, a debate in my own mind. And, and I, I remember I attended an event I spoke at at the Judicial Institute, which is actually located on, on, campus, and I was chit-chatting with, Judge, Judge, uh, Hines Radix, uh, at the end, and she said, "You know, Jeff, you know, you know some of these subjects better than some lawyers, even better than a few judges. That's why we had you come in and speak to us. You know, why don't, why don't you just go get the piece of paper? Go get Why don't you just go get the, the official credential, you know?" And so that ended the debate in my mind. So a lot of people are thinking about the long three years and then, you know, the difficulty. The, the It's intense prep for the bar exam. Mm. But I would encourage anyone on the fence or who has those concerns, do it. I'll say this line of reasoning, that, you know, three years is going to come and go, right? And you're still gonna Provided you're still alive, you're still going to be here. So the only question is, are you gonna be further along the line on your goal? You know, are you gonna have graduated law school by then, or are you still gonna be stuck in the same place because you're worrying about, about the, about the time? So with that, so many doors have opened for me and also for many of my classmates. I mean, I, I even have a pair of former classmates that I refer cases to. I do a quick vetting, and then I refer them out, and then I help maintain the client rapport. We get a referral fee, but I'm also sending business to, you know, to clients that they wouldn't get, other, colleagues that they wouldn't get otherwise. So again, the importance of the network. All those factors are all reasons why you definitely should go to law school, for sure.

Miguel Sanchez 43:22

I would only add one thing, and I think just to tie everything Don't live with regret. If you have a goal, if you have a, a, uh, a dream, pursue it. The worst thing that can happen is that you learn something from it, whether it's the actual goal or something else. So Jeff, thank you for this conversation. I really appreciate you sharing, being open and transparent about your experience and how the, um, the, uh, Deskovic Foundation is making a real impact in our society. I really thank you for your time. And for our listeners, definitely connect with Deskovic and make a donation or get involved. Thank you, Jeff. Thank

Jeffrey Deskovic 43:58

you.