Faithful Founder

Faith, Business, and Authenticity: The Bold Choices of a Christian Founder

• Jamie Cain • Episode 2

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How do you honor God in business while navigating the challenges of being a founder? In this episode of The Faithful Founder Podcast, Jamie Cain sits down with TJ Russell, a talented designer, entrepreneur, and unapologetic follower of Christ.

TJ shares how his faith guides his work, from including “Friend of Jesus” in his professional bio to integrating biblical values like honor, patience, and self-control into his design business. Jamie and TJ dive deep into what it means to prioritize God in business decisions, balance family life as an entrepreneur, and embrace the blessings and struggles that come with putting faith first.

Whether you're a seasoned entrepreneur or just starting out, this episode will inspire you to live out your faith authentically in every aspect of your life and work.

Thank you for tuning in to The Faithful Founder Podcast! If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other faith-driven leaders.

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Ultimately it's it's you're you're the most satisfied when you're working at that place of passion fulfillment. And when you're doing that, you're way more likely to reach your potential. You know the highest points. Faithfulness is at the core of me being a founder. Good business values and ethics comes from the Bible. Lead with the relationship with Christ. Lead with your knowledge of the gospel to die. So I think what's going on, everybody? This is Jamie Cain with the Faithful Founder podcast. I am joined here with TJ Russell, the man, the myth, the legend. TJ is a man of many talents. Like for real. Like your incredible man has been awesome to work with you. But, thanks for coming in and sitting down. And thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. Can you real fast or people who don't know who you are, what you do. Give us a real quick recap of TJ. Yeah. So I do a lot of things, but I do I would say mainly for work, business stuff. I'm a designer. So that mainly the categories of graphic design and web design. So that's kind of my bread and butter. That's what I do. And then to kind of go along with that, I do search engine optimization and dabble in some marketing stuff. That's awesome man. Yeah TJ I met TJ, because you did our logo. Like he helped us. I did a really rough version of our logo, and TJ cleaned it up real nice and made it available to be trademarked was the big thing. So and then he also did our website how it goes down I if anyone was to go there, but it's, great website he call that. But it's interesting because when we started working together, well before we started working together, you kind of gave me a call. We went over some things, you know, and I went to your website, and I went down to your bio and, and the, the about Me section, and, you know, read over your experience, everything that you had done. And then in your bio on your website, it says friend of Jesus, you know, and that really caught me because even if people are Christian, they're not putting that on their websites and they're not putting their professional profiles, you know. Yeah. Why did you feel like you needed to do that? I think I just reached a point where I'm, like, not worried about what people think. Where they're all right, everything's over, dude. Because, like, I, I think, I don't know, just to kind of. Throughout my life, I've learned that, like, the most important, the most important opinion, you know, is God's opinion. And so, for me is just like, and I have like, I had a season where I fluctuated like, like, should I even put that on there? Should I not like, I probably had 2 or 3 different my own websites over the years. And yeah, I never really put that on there. Mentioned it. Or I would mention it in a very like politically correct way or some way to kind of like sugarcoat it a little bit. But I finally, like reached arcade came to the conclusion that it was like, God is the one who provides for me and he's the one he's going to sustain me. So, like, why would I be afraid of, you know, putting him first in every area, you know, especially work, you know? So I was just like, yeah, why not? What's the like? Am I the only person that, brought that up to you? I can't imagine so, No. So I emailed you, like. Well, yeah. Yeah. And then, like, I feel like we're going to go with you. I sent an email saying I literally screenshotted and circled in front of Jesus. And I said, and I love this. You know, I want it to appear like that. You are working with a Christian as well, that, you know, I mean, on our website, like you asked us, I did think of some quotes that we want to put on our website for the three founders of Help Girls. Right. And my quote was a C.S. Lewis quote. Right. You know, aim at, you know, aim at heaven. You'll get earth thrown in, aim and earth and you'll get neither. Right. Was a quote, right? And that I felt was adjacent to business as well as spiritual and, and, but I wanted to be able to understand, like, yeah, I am a Christian and I'm leading this company. Right. So. Yeah. But anyways, you know, when I saw that with you, I really just was, like, happy to see that. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because it's just not. I've worked with a lot of people, a lot of designers and freelancers and stuff like that. And, you know, whether the Christian or not, they don't typically put any kind of details like that on the profile, you know. Yeah. No, it's just like, it helps me feel more, okay with myself just being genuine and putting that out there because it's the most important thing to me. So it's like, you know, I'm going to put it out there, so go. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Here's a question. Was I the like so you've had other people bring it up to you? I'm not that specifically. But they're interesting. I have had people mention just do conversation. Like meeting with a potential client. Yeah. I'll even bring up Jesus, you know, in those meetings and stuff. Yeah. And I'll kind of just follow the leading of the spirit where if I feel like I need to mention something, or they ask about my kids and then they get into whatever gets into any, like, type of personal life, which I'm a strong believer in making personal connections with people. Yeah. Even if it's like an interview thing where if we want to work together. Yeah. Because I'm just a very normal, down to earth guys, like, I'm not gonna be flashy or business here. Like, this is my skill set. This is what you get. So you get. But also to go along with that is like, yeah, I don't know. I just love people and value people because I believe they're created in the image of God. And yeah, so I kind of I try to just weave in that side of or just try to weave in the Lord into even those types of conversations. So it has gotten brought up in conversation. But sure, I don't think necessarily someone mentioned it specifically from my website. Do you do you feel in those sorts of conversations? That's a evangelist opportunity or like, or you just feel like, as a disciple, this is such a big part of my life that I, I'm not evangelizing to them. I'm just stating who I am. It's the authenticity of it. Yeah. It's just kind of like, this is. This is who I am. Yeah. If this offends you, then you're probably not going to work. And that's how. That's how we feel. I mean, like, that's I mean, at least for me, we you know, we've said internally, obviously on the Faithful Founder podcast, we've talked about that like help ghost is inherently a Christian led company like our internal mission. And Hope ghost is to glorify God's name through what we're doing at the company. Right is to use help goes is an offering to him. Right. And people may say, well, that's kind of, God doesn't need your company, right? Like you're kind of just using that as an opportunity, like, you know, a Christian opportunity to prop yourself up or whatever, you know, and nothing. No one's ever said that to us. And I'm a person that I have a lot of arguments in my own head with myself. I challenge a lot of my own views, you know, which I think is important to do. But for me, it's this is something I've wanted to do anyways. Like, I've always wanted to be a founder. I've always wanted to get into tech and SAS and and that's just been my dream since my sophomore year of, college. I realized that's what I wanted to do. Right. Cool. And when I, when I was on the verge of, founding help ghost, I told our founders, I'm like, we're going to do this anyway. And if we're going to do any way, it's going to be to the glory of God's name. Yeah, right. It's not. I'm not, you know, it's, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen, with propping up the name of Christ, with propping up the name of God and showing people. Yeah, we were unabashedly a Christian led company. And and more importantly, it's. And I would like to ask you about this as well. Our values are Christian, right. Like like our first value that we put down, for how it goes is be ethical. Right. And that comes from the Christian viewpoint of doing the right thing by loving others as you love yourself, as you commanded by Christ to do. Do you find that, like in a business setting or you. I'm sure. I mean, having worked with the you have, like it seems like your Christian values come through in your work because you definitely go the extra mile you did with me, you know, working with me. So yeah. I think like having that relationship with the Lord should affect your work. It should affect every area of your life. And, yeah, good business values and ethics comes from the Bible. Like there's no other way to put it. Yeah. Like even reading through Proverbs and all the wisdom that the Bible has about, like being faithful with the little things and being consistent and just all the, the wisdom, it's in there. You know, it's. Really smart to include that into your business. It'd be really foolish not to, honestly. So, yeah, a lot of the values and the ethics and things that come into play when it when you're running your business, if you're if you're being faithful with that, God will bless it so much. And yeah, it's. A you have two questions. I guess the first thing is, I'll say both questions that, I want to ask where God is. Bless you and your business. But we'll answer that one second. No. I'm okay. I forget that question because I will. The first one is, what values specific, have you imply? Like what biblical values have you put in the Sun Bear digital. Right. Yeah. I would say I can't necessarily point to one specific one, but I would say. Trying to really manifest the fruit of the spirit. And so that's like love, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control. There's a bunch more in their faithfulness. Sure. So, yeah, the nine fruits of the spirit. So, trying to actually manifest that, in my life. Do even, like, in my work. So when I'm firing up my computer and getting ready to dive in, like, making sure that I'm not wasting my own time, wasting my client's time, and, making sure that I'm being treating each client with honor. You know, I think honor is probably a big. Yeah, value that, comes up a lot because as a business owner, I understand. Like, this is how I feed my family. There's a lot at risk when you're running your own business. You know? So I want to treat other people's time with honor, their business with honor, and giving them. I want to give them my best because if I honor them, I feel like they're worth my best. So. Now. Doing, like, approaching it that way. And sometimes, even if the client is not, you know, the ideal client or or it's someone who's like, I don't really have the budget for this. Sometimes I will still just, like, out of a place of honor. And, What do you mean by to honor? Like, what is that like when you say it? I mean, you know, I feel like there's a lot of different ways to say I'm honoring this person, right? Like, I. And it's cultural to, like, honor is different things or places from the Christian perspective. Christian business owner perspective. Right. Like, yeah. What does that mean? I would say for me and I don't even know, like if this is, one of the definitions or not, but for me, honor looks like seeing someone the way that God sees them, in that value chain of value them in the way that God value. So. So when I look at someone, from the world's standards, where maybe they're not this huge, successful company, or maybe they're not. Yeah. You know, like, deserving of honor in the world's eyes. But, the maybe the way God sees them, though, is they are worthy of of that respect and that honor. And, they're a faithful husband or, like, they're a good dad. It's like, yeah, oh, those things matter, too. So just trying to look at people through, the way they, God would see them rather than like, the world's standards. I love that for what? Because my mind is like, that's the greatest form of honor is to look at people, that the way that God looks at them, to treat them the way that God would treat them like, I don't think there's any other way to I mean, there's other ways to honor people. I don't think on the, you know, the, the pedestal of honor. Right. Like at the top of that would be the what you're saying. Yeah. It's a loving us. God would. Which is incredibly difficult. Like that is not an easy task to see them as God would or I like. That is a to me, that's a that's a lifelong pursuit. And here's what I know. For me. Like I look at people and you know, like, you know, you two guys are in the room with me right now. I see God in your eyes, you disciples of Christ. They there's evidently they're right. And then when I leave here and the guy that cuts me off in traffic, he's the son of Satan, you know, so it's like I, it's, you know what I'm saying? It's hard to be consistent with it. It's so. Hard. Yeah. How do you consistently honor people? Because I'm sure you, in a business like in a Christian founder's sense especially, or yours is such a that you're working with the choir a lot like with us, when we have a client on board, like, whoa, whoa, you know, speak to them every once in a while. But they're really, you know, working within our platform, in our product. Right? Whether you they're working directly with you or a day to day. I know with us, we work together a ton. Yeah. Do our projects right and and we'll continue to do so with the harder clients though. Yeah. So I think I can I can honor people, but also still have respect for myself and have boundaries, which has been a huge learning thing for me. So where I would, you know, I would go above and beyond and I would be like super gracious and like honor my clients. And, but some clients would take advantage of that. So, you know, after a while, I kind of was I would wrestle with that a lot. And, But realizing it's like it's actually good for them and for me, if I have strong boundaries and I stick to those, because it shows that not only am I having respect and honor for them, I'm also honoring or respecting myself. And that's just as important as honoring and respecting other people. Yeah. Where it's because you're also creating the image of God, right? I peony yeah, I know for myself I don't like you. I can't speak for you. But I, it's easy for me to say. Yeah, other people create the image of God. It's easy for me to say as they are children of God. But I forget that of myself. That I'm also a child of God, that I also have the image and likeness of the creator in me. Yeah, right. And and for me, like, you know, nation, I were, you know, talking about this the other day about self-respect, right, and self-confidence. And we had a really interesting, you know, conversation of it's not you take the self out of that. It's just confidence and respect for God's creation. So good. Right. Like that. That's really what it comes down to that because I my entire life I've, I've struggled with self-confidence and self-worth, you know, but I feel like when we were in the in that conversation, we took out, like I said, the self part of that. Yeah. Do I have do I see the worth and and God's hands. Yeah. Which I am right. Do I see, do I have confidence in what the creator has made, what she made me? You know, so it's no longer confidence in myself. It's no longer the worth of myself in seeing the worth of the creator is the thing. The worth of God the Father and and so much worth and so much value that he sent his only begotten son to be hung on a cross, and to suffer for us, and to be risen from the dead for us. Right? Like dads are, where that confidence and value come from. I don't know your thoughts on that. I love that, and I just think even the phrase of saying like removing self, that's isn't that kind of the goal? It's like you're getting yourself out of the way because we get in our own way most of the time. And yeah, 100, you know, it's like. Yeah, I guess so. I can speak from personal experience. That's it's almost always myself, you know. Yeah. And it's in a lot of that, like, insecurities and like, self-loathing or not feeling good enough. Not feeling worthy enough. A lot of that is rooted in selfishness and just in introspection. But when we get outside of ourselves and we look at it from like, what you were saying, I am God's creation and God doesn't make junk. He's the greatest designer and creator who's ever lived. So like, he's the he he he even says he's like, you're fearfully and wonderfully made and you're made in his image. So it's just being able to get out of our own way so that we can see ourselves the way that he sees us, and that comes back into like honor as well. So it's just. Yeah. Do you feel like it's, it's. I had never thought about this until just now. But you like this idea of honor? I think in the coffin, it's in the worth of the creation, which is yourself. Right? You're honoring the creator, right? Like, if you look at, like, a potter and he's made this beautiful face vase for some people up, it is evil. But, you know, there's a base, right? And you look and you're. And you're honoring, like, this beautiful. Well, that vase isn't created in and of itself. It didn't disappear. You're honoring the vase. You're honoring the hand. The person that molded the vase. And that's what the work in, right? Yeah. I never thought about to like. That's how you know. Yeah. That's, I mean, I. Know that's that's spot on, because even when it comes to judging people or judging ourselves or, Yeah. So, like, similar to you, I also had the comparison thing or it's like, I'm not good enough. I'm not doing enough. Yeah, I'm not enough. But looking at it from your perspective of the potter and he is our he's he is our potter. He's a master potter. And. Yeah, it's it's actually dishonoring to him to, to say that about ourselves. And so I think. That's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah. When you look at that, because it's like once again for me, I, I lately I made a concerted effort. I have a pretty good temper. Right. And so I would I have a short temper. I have my entire life. Right. Okay. On Battalion and Irish, you know what I'm saying. So I had zero chance at temperament, you know, that's good. But. And yeah, neither one of them, you know. No I have a I have a bad temper and it's or you know, but typically it's shorter lived. You know nowadays. But then in my youth, and I've made a concerted effort over the last year or so, like I've seen that probably one I, I might not probably. I know it may not be my biggest weakness, but it's one of the biggest weaknesses. Right. And I find myself, having to, you know, restrain that. Obviously I'm working to restrain that. Right. And, and, you know, we're talk about the creator in his hands and we're talking about what he's it's also, I think when you let, the worldly, you know, I'll say passions, right? Like the world I think I was anger was born of passion. Really? Yeah. Right. And lust is born of passion. And, you know, and covet. Coveting is born of passion and pride, right? So, you know, pride, I guess, is the first great sin, right, that we've, we've all heard, but and is with all that, it almost feels like, you know, you're perverting the creation. Yeah. You're disrespecting the creation, which is of yourself if you're not honoring it, which kind of comes back to you like you're honoring your boundaries or telling people, no, I, I've set these things up. I, I do have love for myself. Not that I, not that I put myself above anything else, but I have love for the creation of love for the image of God that is in me. Yeah. Respect the potter. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. Do you, going back to that question, I actually didn't forget, but. So here we go. I slept, I guess. All right, last night, but, the blessings of the Lord in your business. I'm a very, I push back a lot against, I guess, what they call the prosperity gospel. Oh, yeah. A lot. No, you know, it's Christ doesn't promises prosperity, actually promises suffering and pain. But he also promises that he's overcome that. Oh, he's overcome the tribulation of the world for us. You know. Yeah. And he probably also promises life because of him, you know. But with that being said, he's also the author of all Things that are good. Yes. You know, and so the blessings, you know, trying to push away from the idea of prosperity gospel. Yeah. But also recognizing that God does bless those who do glorify his name and that do love him right? I don't know about your experience in that, but. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Like his faithfulness is never ending. It's he's so faithful. And it might be up until that last minute where you're like, all right, Lord, I need a project. This one's wrapping out. And then sure enough, every time comes through like clockwork. But we, I think for a lot of people and say blessing and prosperity, they just think money. Yeah. And, yeah. Like having a wife trying society for sure. Yeah. In the work. Yeah. But Jesus, he had really interesting views on money. He could pull money out of fish, so he did. I know he said Uffington, right? Yeah, exactly. So. But for us, like, we get wrapped up in money and he said very clearly like you can't serve God and money. So the blessings they have been financial at times but other times the blessing is oh, I don't actually have that much to work on. So I get to spend a long weekend away with my family, or I get to work on my house and get all this stuff done that I wouldn't have had time for if I was in the hustle mindset and I was just like grinding and grinding and grinding, even if I didn't have work. So sometimes the blessing just looks like peace, but I can rest sometimes a blessing looks like I have, you know, I can work 12 hour days because I have so much work to do. And it's like there's grace on and it feels right. And then sometimes the blessing looks like, being able to travel and like, work from wherever. So the blessing looks like a lot of different things. Sometimes a blessing looks like like my kids can come into my room and just, like, sit on my lap while I work. Yeah. And there's just so many different ways that he's blessed. It, even today, like, I sometimes I just kind of pinch myself. And on paper, it's I'm probably not. I'm I'm definitely not the most, like, wildly successful. Successful designer out there. Right. But I feel sometimes I feel so blessed and successful because, like, just the fact that I can, like, today I was able to work in the morning and then I felt like I wanted to, like, work on making a new desk. So I got to just stop and go out in my garage and start making a desk. And there's a lot of people that can't do that. They can't leave their 9 to 5. Right? Right. Go. Yeah, like a desk, let alone visit their kids for five minutes, you know. Exactly. So I just I'm so grateful and thankful and I can see, all the, just the different blessings, and the way that it's affected my life where, but. Yeah, going back even even monetarily, that's probably been, like, the biggest stressor and probably everyone's biggest stressor. Stressor is money. Absolutely. You know, paying bills, feeding your family, running your business, all that stuff. But going on this journey of learning to trust him is such a crazy roller coaster. You know it is. And like sometimes I feels, I feel like I forget so fast and so easily. Yeah, it's like every time something dries up, he brings something new. And that's just been the way from the start. That's just that's how it's been. And I'm not saying that that's how it's going to be for everyone. Yeah. But for me, in my experience, that's how I have experiences. That's what I've seen. Out of that, I think, I think I so that for me is as founders, right. It's, you know, entrepreneurs. It can be we measure success. Really only one way revenue production. Right. Like that's the point of a business is to produce revenue where, you know, just on paper, I should say. Right. Like, that's not the sole purpose. Right? But I find it really interesting because most founders I know, myself included, think that way, like, we've got to produce dollars, you know? But I love that what you said is you recognizing the blessings as a as a Christian founder, is not just a monetary. No. It's everything that comes along with that. Like, I it's funny, man, because when I saw it go, I took a pretty big pay cut. So I go, you know, I go I was like, it just it's, I mean, I'm, I'm talking significant. You know, we're making a lot less than we had for a long time, you know? And yet I'm happier. Yeah, I'm still. Stressed out, don't get me wrong. Oh, yeah. I was on my wife the other day. I, like you, could give me triple what I was making before. I still wouldn't take it. Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just happier. I'm getting to do something I feel fulfilled in doing. And I also get to walk out my office and go hang out with my kids for a couple minutes. You can go in the backyard. And you know what I'm saying? And like and or like you said, like my daughter over the door. She comes in all the time and the says like something to do it all. Yeah. My son was on my chair last night and freaking out. You trying to grab my stuff off my desk, but I just felt like I last. I knelt and I was just, like, watching him play on my chair. I'm like, this is awesome, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, I get to I get to be here and see them even when. And there's been weeks, even though I work from home because we were a remote first company that I don't, I feel like I don't get to see my family a lot, which is kind of crazy that I'm home, you know? But then it's also I get to I get to have the moment of clarity of that's my choice. Like, I can still walk. I can take a minute, walk out, and I don't have to be, business productive. I can be dad productive for a minute. Yeah, I can be husband productive for a minute, or I can stop and read my Bible. You know what I'm saying? I can stop and say a prayer, right? Those are things I've been trying to work on as well. You know, and adding those. But going back to that, I think that's a really important message for because our podcast is, is centered towards Christian founders, but Christian founders that are the midst of it, not guys that have already made it. Yeah. And faithful founders about being a founder, which is a gritty word. Yeah. It's you're slogging through it, man. You know what I'm saying? Like, for some reason, I just thought of the swamp where Yoda lives right now, but that's the image that popped in my head, you know, of, like, that's what it feels like to be a founder, man. We're trying to balance on the rock. And this frog man's yelling at you, you know? And and you're trying to make it work, you know? But that's it's an important reminder for guys that are there, you know, whether what stays there until like maybe they're older or the younger. It's like the blessings come in different ways. When you're a Christian founder, don't measure your blessings by the monetary by the client that comes to the door, I and I and I think, yeah, it's a beautiful sentiment, you know. So how have you seen God provide for Son Bear Digital? So I kind of just tell a story or tell the story of how everything started and where I'm at today. But, I started doing Sun Bear as a side hustle because I was working at a Birkenstock shoe. Store that is, you know. Feeding people with sandals and making, I don't know how much money, so little. And I had just moved to California, married my wife and, not from California. No, no, we went to Africa. And then I was born and raised in Detroit. Okay. We're going to talk about all that. Yeah. So we met overseas. She lived in California, grew up in a, like, a small mountain town and then moved to the coast. The inside of out there, we got married. But, yeah, it wasn't until we had our son, our son, Abner, that I was like, all right, I can't just work at Birkenstocks, you know, as, the shoe guy, like, I need to. I need a career. You know? So I've always loved design, and I always loved, art and things like that. So I actually originally went to school for graphic design, but then my teacher kind of taught me that the only way you could use is like designing soup labels and, like, food labels and things like that. So I was like, I don't want to do that. So I never really pursued it after that. But anyway, so I started getting into branding and I had friends and, they had businesses or things like that. So I would do logos and took some online courses, YouTube University, all that stuff. Right. And just kind of took what I learned, all the fundamentals at school and, and blended that with new stuff that I was learning and eventually like, figured out that I have a knack for it and, kind of just fell in love with it and started growing my business. And, and I was in, I want to say 20, I think 2017 was when it really started picking up. And then, I kind of kept it on the side for a long time because I didn't really feel safe, you know, diving, you know, head on, just full, full time. The big jump, man. Yeah, yeah, it's a scary jump, you know? Yeah. So it wasn't until, It happened I can you. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. No. You're good. It wasn't until I want to say 20. It just, 20, 20. I want to say it wasn't until 2020 where I actually went full time, and then it was because I had reached the point where I had so many is actually with search engine optimization. I had so many clients that I was just running out of time and I was started making pretty much as what I was making in my full time job with the clients that I had. So I was like, all right, it'll be less money, but it'll give me the bandwidth and the brain space to even scale more and take on more clients. So, ended up doing that. And it was great. Like, you were. You like, were you praying this whole time? And obviously, you know, you're obviously a Christian, but like, this was it was this, subject of your prayers of I really want to do this. Help me figure this out. I think it was it was it was more of a desire. Yeah. And it was a desire. And I had frustrations with the 9 to 5 and, that sounds bad, but I had frustrations with having a boss. I know, I feel, you. Know, it's like. Yeah. That's when I realized I wanted to be entrepreneur because I had to. Working for other people. Yeah, yeah, I was. Being real about it at all. But so being in a position where it's like you're taking orders and even as a, as a, as service, you know, you take orders from clients in a sense, but not being able to, I know, have a voice and have I know. But yeah. So when full time somebody, loved it really got into it. But then I started getting started feeling the stress of, you know, being the only person responsible for your income. And it's like. Your wife stand out like this. All on me. Yeah. So huge. Another blessing. My wife has never had to work. Yeah. So we just we celebrated our nine year anniversary in December. Yeah. So that's been a crazy blessing. The. Biggest blessing for me and my wife since we had our children is still working. You know, it's been a I don't think there's I that's probably the biggest blessing. See that, you know. So good for you, kid. Yeah. On real sense. Sorry. I've lived in Iraq. No, no. Yeah. Guys, that, So I did that for a while, and then I think just, I, I think because of how smooth the transition was, I didn't have to my, my faith or my trust. It hadn't really been tested up to that point. And, it wasn't until I got to say 20 late 20, 21, maybe early 22, where I just started feeling the fear and the stress of like, what if all my clients leave? What if, you know, projects stopped coming in and I didn't really have, like, a reason to doubt or to to not trust in the Lord, but it just kind of crept in and, yeah, at that point I just got kind of obsessed with how how do I find new clients? How do I do this? How do I do that? Not that any of those things are bad to know, but, like, I was just coming at it from a place of fear. Yeah, I was and say, is that do you feel like that was led because of a loss of trust or not mean a loss of trust, but maybe I holding enough trust. That's where the fear crept in. I think it was just not really putting enough trust in, you know, it. And, I feel that, yeah, I just allowing especially when, when life stuff happens, if there's medical bills, if there is, you know, you know, the car needs work. Yeah. All that stuff, you know, you get hit with, like, I didn't know I didn't really know about taxes and I didn't have anyone guiding me through that. So my first time paying taxes, it was like, holy cow. Like, yeah, it's yeah. You know, not not paying over throughout the year and just getting that one big thing at the end. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's like, man, yeah, I need to have some more kids to help. Like, counteract this. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So I think the fear crept in, and then I actually got, an offer for a job from my friend, the company that he was working at, and I was like, oh, this is great. Like, I get to work, like, I'm going to work with a team, and it's at this cool company and they make games and like all this stuff that was going to be their marketing guy. And it was, they gave me like almost what I was making. And, you know, you got the insurance and all the stuff that comes with it, all the benefits. But it was over in after Eagle Road, so, you know, it was it was getting into, like, I would have to drive, you know, have is like a half hour in the morning and the hour to get home at, you know, in the traffic. So I'm from California, though, that's got, it's not too bad, right? Yeah. But we were actually in a smaller town in California, so this was not right. Oh, I don't know. Yeah. No. Yeah, I no, I couldn't do that. Okay I understand that like, yeah. The honor thing in that kind of traffic I would be at a big I see your challenge. Yeah 100%. But yeah I know. So I ended up working at that company and, just started feeling so not happy. Distract it, go away. Because eventually they started laying people off, because the economy and, I mean, I survived four waves of layoffs, which is lame. Yeah, it's scary, but it was like the when I think when I got hired, there was 60 people. And then when I left, there was eight people. So it's just like, that's wild nuts. Yeah. I live in that kind of fears. Yeah. Tough man. I get Ariel and I, you know, fear and stress affects me physically. Like I have physical or, you know, responses to it, you know, and so it's it's, I think it's under, miss, that I was in misunderstood, but it's definitely, people not talk about it enough, like how that, can really affect you and your mindset and your health and, you know, living on edge. It can affect your family life and everything that comes along with that, you know? Yeah. So it's like, yeah, that's so true. I was I was getting my paycheck every couple of weeks, you know, drug positive money in the bank. It was just there. But that fear, that stress still didn't go away. And that, now instead of having to, like, trusting God, it was almost like I had to trust in the economy and I had to trust in that. The leader, the boss of the companies making good decisions and, you know, but so it was just like it was it was weird. And my wife, she's amazing. And the whole time she's kind of reminding me, she's like, why did you even take that job in the first place? Why didn't you just keep doing what you're doing? Like what you were growing. You were successful. Like, yeah, you had clients. But I think in the back of my head I was like, this taking this job is going to be safe. Yeah, this is going to be safer for me. Yeah. And for our family. Yeah. Because I'm going to get a like paycheck every two weeks. But that was just kind of an illusion really. It's it's so many people got laid off the and the economy, the things. And it's just there's no guarantees, you know, but at least so yeah all that to say and it was quitting, at the end of. Whichever way you quit, like after all of these I know are still there, like, we literally saved your job. Well. You know, and it it had gotten to the point where it was like they didn't really need a marketing person. So I actually ended up doing, like, music stuff for some of their games as a musician within my family. And yeah, we've done music a lot, but, started doing music stuff. And so they're kind of using me for like, odds and ends. I wasn't really doing marketing, and it just it became this messy thing, and it was like, I don't know what they're going to try to use me for next, but I just I'm going to quit and do like and, and their thing was I felt like God was like saying like, all right, are you are you done? You know, like, are you ready to move back out on your own again? It always felt like, like if you, like, moved out from your parents house, you were independent, grown up, and then you moved back in. And it's like depending on your living situation is probably not the healthiest environment. Yeah. So then you get to the point where, like, I need to move back out. That's kind of what it felt like. Yeah, sure. So I was like, all right, I need you to go back out on my own and just be free and be able to, like, run a business and do it the kingdom way and just trust in God and not have to trust in, like a man or. Yeah. You know, the decision. I love the idea that as a founder, you're that's who you're putting your trust in. Yeah. Because you really are, man. Like, yeah, you got on your own. Let's say you're not a believer, right? You're agnostic or whatever, you know, and you can just putting your trust in yourself. You know, you kind of need luck. A lot of it. Like yeah, luck goes I mean, I've heard it a million times that, you know, there's a lot of luck that goes into being a founder, you know? And for me, you know, when you look at God is the arbiter of my success. And his success may not look like what I want it to. But even as a from an earthly perspective, the success of that, it'll be up to him to provide those things for him, because he's the author of the good things that come right and good may not always be what we believe is good. Obviously we we know a lot of times that, but we think we need is clearly not what we need and what we needed to be humble or to to suffer, to have hardship, whatever it may be. And that's the best thing for our souls, our purification. Everything comes along with that, right? Yeah. But going back to the idea that I just love that there's you stepping out on your own was the catalyst to put more trust in the God and say, yeah, okay, you're the one that I'm answering to now. Yeah. Not a guy in an executive chair, you know, whatever it may be, you know? Yeah. Some tech wannabe who's. Sorry, I don't know. I don't want. To put that out. Yeah, I don't want to talk bad by anyone, but. Yeah. See, it's hard to stay down. It's hard on or all the time, I'm telling you. But I would just. Yeah. So once I was, I quit that job. I pray that that company does well, like I really do. But once I quit that job, I took the whole month of January off, and, I was starting essentially, I'd kept, like, 1 or 2 clients on retainer, just kind of, and not even and just kind of an hourly, like, as needed kind of thing. Yeah. So I kind of was starting from scratch. Yeah. And God just started bringing people in my life, and I didn't tell anyone that I was looking for work. I didn't tell anyone. I didn't do any outreach. Like, I just I don't know which I'm not recommending that people like. Sure, definitely reach out to clients, like trying to find work either. You just jumped in, you said this is it, but I just quit. I was like, all right, Lord, I just need to have some time, have some space and get back to that connection. Because I working at that job definitely affected my connection with the Lord, too. But yeah, started it and then, finished. We were building a tiny house for my mother in law and our property. So finished the tiny house in January. And she was like, hey, I want to pay you for the work that you're doing. So that kind of became a source of income. Yeah. So I was like, oh, that's a blessing. That's cool. Getting to work with my hands and and do all that. And then it sounds like a mental reset because it's so much. Oh, he has you had been doing. Yeah. Point. Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So and then once February hit, I started yeah. Just doing, work just started coming in actually. And then, project started coming up and. Then was it referrals or something or like. Yeah, it's my work has been it's been 98% referrals. It's awesome. Word of mouth. Yeah. And I that goes back to just doing everything with excellence. And yeah, I feel like if you're good at what you do, people are going to want you. People are going to tell other people about you. Yeah. If they trust in your work and they trust in you as a person, where it will spread. Yeah. I think it's like a secondary blessing of living the Christian life is that there is. Look, I mean, there's a lot of opposition to Christianity and Christians in the world, right? Like, it's I, I think in the West, we're kind of sheltered from that a little bit, you know, because it is such a Christian, you know, heavily populated area. But, I mean, even today you see more and more people leaving the faith or not believing in anything. Right. And there is a lot of opposition in America to Christianity. I, I truly it's a different kind of opposition of what you see across the world with people getting physically, you know, attacked and those sorts of things. But yeah, today it's more of a mental, more of an emotional attack. It's a, you know, of words of putting down, yeah. You know, just, you know, all sorts of things. I mean, Christians, we don't really I don't have to explain that. We we've all been through it, and we all see it, right? Or, and even some cases, depending on where you're at, it could get as far as, like, try to shut your business down. Yeah. That's true. You know, say like, you know, you're trying to stand up for what you believe in and stand up for what you believe is biblically true. And then people could come in and try to burn your business down, smash your windows, or get you shut down, get you sued and like paying all these fines. So yeah, I mean, there's definitely some legit, some legit persecution. But yeah, we're not being, you know, murdered for our faith, but very true. There are people who are trying to take away livelihood and, like, ruin your life, essentially. And there's there's one of the blessings I got, I got some there's opposition to being a Christian, but there's also, I think a lot of people I know, I you know, I've seen it, I guess, as a Christian, you know, and and knowing people that aren't, you know, Christian, maybe they're, you know, or even the same denomination or whatever, you know, but it's like when you see people live by a set of values and ethics and morals, you want to work with them that much more, right? And they may not look at you and say, I want to work with him because he's a Christian. But the reason they do want to work with you is because you follow Christ, right? So what you're living outwardly is an expression of your faith. Therefore they want to work with you more. And that is a second, I would say a secondary blessing. Right? But like the main blessing is just knowing Christ. Oh, and what comes of that is, you know, things like that, you know. Yeah. So true. Yeah. Do I, one of the things I popped in my head where you're talking about, you know, recognizing the Lord's will in your life, like, do I think for me, doing what I'm doing now with help goes with Abel founder, I like it. It was a recognition of the Lord's will in my life. Right. Yeah. Then the. How did you write? Because you said you felt like that was a call back to that. How do you recognize it? Because I know a lot of Christians that struggle with recognition on the Lord's will. It's one of things I've struggled with the most accessible. You know. It's tricky because sometimes in this case, I just felt so disconnected. I felt disconnected from God. I felt disconnected from my family. I just kind of felt disconnected from everything. Yeah. And then just being completely transparent, like slipping back into old sin habits that, you know, where that kind of stuff started creeping back in. And once I felt disconnected from God and disconnected from family, that's kind of the theme that follows. That and the natural cycle of things is in creeps in, you know? And then the next thing you know, you you hate your life. You don't know why. Yeah, sure. But essentially, like, they kind of go so good. And so yeah, by the sunlight, read the Bible and you might feel that better. Yeah. Maybe because it trails over here and you're over here, the door and in the weeds do like rolling around like an animal. We are the arbiters of our own suffering many times, you know? Yeah. We just throw ourselves off the trail, right? Yeah. Why am I suffering? But that was definitely a red flag indicator where it's like, I should not feel like this. I just feel wrong. Something feels off, and lots of times that could mean that you're just out of the will of. God, like, unsettled with that being. Unsettled? Definitely. Yeah. No peace. No. Like feeling unfulfilled. Yeah. Like unsatisfied. Like as as my general demeanor. Yeah. And it's okay to have I think it's okay to have little moments of that. Sure. That shouldn't be your your base. You know, that shouldn't be how you always feel. Yeah. So sometimes you won't know for sure that it's the will of God until after you take action. And once I quit the job, I felt so much peace. I felt so much freedom. I felt so connected. I felt so good about everything. Yeah. So that's interesting. I feel like sometimes, like you said, you have to make the action. You have to take the action to know if it was a right decision or not. Right? Like God doesn't take away the agency right? He he created us, as free, you know, to have free will and to be, to act right in our honor on our quarter, whether it's right or wrong, you know, and I find it really interesting that even when he manifest as will to us, we can still make the opposite decision. And I love what you said. There is. I feel like a lot of times you'll know pretty quickly that this was not the right move. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? And then other times you kind of feel like you're like, it's like the Israelites are lost in the wilderness a little bit and you're like, I'm just going in circles for 40 years, you know, it's holy. I'm on the right path. And I think that's actually one of the hardest. Oh, to me, that's one of the harder places you can be in your life is when you when you when you feel like. I feel like I made the right decision. I feel like, I mean, I'm in the Lord's will, but nothing is happening. Yeah, nothing is coming to fruition, right? Like you're you down the question and as a Christian founder, like there's been a lot of times that I very I mean, we've been out of this for about a year now. Right? And it's like, man, there's a lot of doubt that comes in like today. I was experiencing that and I'm like, I am, I have I and I may for this guy do this. Like, am I making the right decision here like it's it's. And yet I still feel like I'm on the right path. But there is sometimes the the man is not coming. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. It's not falling from the sky. And you're starting to feel the hunger a little bit, you know? Yeah. So I think. Yeah. Go ahead. In those situations because I've felt that a lot too, where I feel like God's telling me to do something and I do it, and I'm like, this kind of sucks, actually. Like, did I make no wrong? Yeah. Did I not hear you clearly? Yeah. But the thing that I always the thing that I noticed was that how I think about how do I feel when I'm actually in the presence of God and I'm connected with him? What is my heart posture? What is what do I feel about that situation when I'm not in the midst of the crappy part of it? You know, because if as long as I can. Have baseline how you feel once today, then you're foundational. Is that what you're saying? Like I'm saying, like when I'm in prayer and when I'm in worship and I make, like, feel like I'm in his presence and I'm feeling him, I'm experiencing him. What is what is it feel like at that moment when I think about my business, when I think about the choice of like, whatever his will is, whatever he's called me to do, do I have peace with it in that moment? Do I do I feel, excited and like, all right, like this was a good choice. Like, even though everything's not looking right, and right now this was the right choice. I always look at how I feel when I'm. When I'm with him, as opposed to when I'm just like in, the Hustle or in the thick of it. Yeah. Because it's it's it's really hard to try to have that because because we get so busy in our minds that we get so busy that we miss that little whisper. Yeah. And so a voice is competing for the attention, right? Yeah, yeah. Then we started looking at YouTube videos of like, how to fix this issue or yeah, how to learn this, how to do that. And when it's like, it's like, take it before the Lord in prayer and see what he says. Get his opinion on it and like, really get our hearts dialed into what what he is speaking to us in that moment in. Yeah. So I try to go based on what I feel then and usually when I'm like, God kind of has a way of making us feel like superheroes, kind of like a good dad would do with their own. Yeah, child, you know, it's like he can do this, like, this is right. Yeah. Or sometimes it's like, yeah, no, this is like, yeah, it's variance. Yeah, yeah, you should stop this or you should, yeah, you should quit or you should do this. Yeah. That's I feel like a lot of times people think of maybe some Christians I, you know, I don't know, but I know a lot of, friends that I have that are, you know, nonbelievers, right? You know, love them to death. You know, they're good people, but they they view God as like a grandpa. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, let's see my dad, my kids. It's like it's, you know, they're never doing anything wrong. There's no discipline. It's like we can do whatever you're doing. Fine. You know? It's, you know, it's. That's not how God is a father. He's having a grandfather, right? It fathers, they celebrate the wins. They teach hard lessons. They discipline. Yeah. They're supposed to tell how it is, but they love you. Yeah, I absolutely, and I know, like, I view myself as a dad. Right? And I'm like, my job is not to coddle my children. No. Like, if they hurt like they mess themselves up. I feel like my son died the other day. Oh my gosh, dude, he took a head. He took a dove headfirst into the bookshelf the other day, and it swooped him out of love and, you know, kissed on him and got a zero icepack on stuff and, you know, figured it out, right. And 100%. But there's other times, man, where he just trips and falls or my daughter or, you know, and and they cry and they whine, but they're totally fine. Like, now you got to get up, man. Yeah. Let's go for the teaching. That's what my daughter. Right. She's on a stage now in her life. She's very defiant and and, it's very difficult for my wife and I at times, you know, and, and it's just like there's those teaching moments of, like, look, I want to be loving towards you. And I know that you take the love away. I shouldn't say that, but I. I want to be kind or whatever. But in this moment, I have to tell you, I the discipline. Yeah. And I have to say, look, it's time for a timeout. It's time for you to go sit in the room and take a breather. Right. Or this time for me, you know, maybe it's just time for me to give you a hug and say the way you're acting right now is not appropriate. But I still love you. Yeah. And and this is how you should be acting, right? So I feel like anyways, I, I put all of that. That's what the law does with us essentially. Oh, absolutely. More loving level. You know, and all those things when it feels like as a punishment, but a reprimand or a disciplining or a no, this is what is best for you, right? It is all out of love because God is love you. You know, that's the thing I struggle with. For a long time I was thinking like, God really is like he is the essence of love. Because. Because you look at people and you ask them if they don't believe in God, say they're atheist or not, where's love come from? Is it just a chemical reaction? Because they can't explain it? They can explain love. They can't explain consciousness. They cannot explain it. There's no scientific explanation for that. Right? And to believe that everything is materialistic is, I think, ridiculous. Yeah. And I'm somebody that believes like I believe the scientific method. I believe that science is there to show us, you know, how the world works and know how the creation was made. I got I don't deny science by any means. No, but to believe that it can explain everything, like love and consciousness is is a joke, honestly, right. And I think. Yeah. And morals and moral explain the objective morality of people. Right. Exactly 100 hours a week ago. It's a whole different conversation. They're the reason I bring that up, though, is that that love has to come from somewhere. Right? Right. And he is the author of that love. Yeah. He's the direct source of that love that we feel. You know, I think about, I really got into studying, near-death experiences. And these are cool. Really interesting stuff. And, like, 98, you know, you know, there's a, there's a book called imagine Heaven. John Burke is the name of the author, and he wrote a book, obviously called imagine how I just said that. But, in his he, he interviewed 1500, and, you know, near-death experiences and, and, but like, quantifiable like, this was not like, just talking to them, like I had to be like, prove it and go there like this. He's an engineer by trade and went through all this stuff. And 98% of them, I believe, is 98% purported when they died and they would float above their body, like almost all of them. They'd see and they would go through this experience of travel and they would be brought into this presence, and they would know immediately, I'm in the presence of God. And all I feel is this love that I cannot explain. Well, it's immediate. This love just overlaps, you know, and to know going back to our conversation, right, that that love is with you in those moments. Yeah. The stress and the fear and the feeling of like, I don't know where I'm going or what I'm doing. I feel like I'm following your will. And even if you're not following the will, and even if you're messing up and you're living in sin, that love is still present. Yeah, we're just the ones that tickets the step back from it. Yeah, not the Lord. Yeah, right. That's so true. And it's kind of. We need to, And this is why community and having, like, mentors and godly men and women in your life. Yes, because. Sometimes our radios are just so out of tune. It can be. Lonely. As a founder, I really I can absolutely. It's even with co-founders, it can be a really lonely journey. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. So the idea of community is something I don't think we talk about enough as founders, you know. Yeah. Where it well where you can bring stuff to people because sometimes I'm not hearing clearly and I'm not in my right mind. But when like we, we get direction from one channel on our radio, you know, we're over God knows where. Just all over the place. Just like, crank and dial. This is like, how do we get to where was it? So we have other like, even our wives or our friends, whoever it is, where we can, like, talk to me like I'm struggling. Like, this is really difficult. Yeah. And they're like, all right, let's pray. Let's they help us get back into that, find that channel again, get in tune with what did God say? What? Where do you really feel that peace. Like, ignore the situation. Where do you feel that? Pieces. Yeah. That. Is to me the probably the number one indicator that you're doing the right thing, like Augustine or I, early Christian philosopher or writes in Augustine. You have big fan of this works. He said. There's a quote I think I said before in another episode of our hearts are restless until they rest in you. And that's that piece he's talking about. Right. And Augustine actually struggled a lot with all the different temptations and struggles. And he writes about them extensively, you know, and that was his, that was his point of near. I've been restless everywhere. Everywhere I've searched everything I've done into arrested in you. Yeah. And then that piece is what, you know, has sustained him, you know, and that's for me. That's if I would have any advice on, you know, I'm sure he'd say the same thing with a Christian founder, you know, a faithful founder, right? If you seek the peace, the like, the joy, not the world. And that the the the worldly happiness, right? Not the worldly joy, because the world doesn't really offer joy or seek the peace of the Lord that goes beyond the we know, as Paul says, beyond all understanding. Exactly. You know, and I would say just expanding on that, that peace is not this thing that's floating out. Peace is Jesus. It's the person of Christ. Two he is. The Prince of. Peace. So you're seeking him. And that's we. We talk about the will. We talk about our callings. Like I'm called to be a missionary. I'm called to be a musician. I'm called to do this. The only thing Jesus called us to do is to follow him. That's our calling. And those are the things will come along with it. I love that you know so and it's it's Matthew, so true. 633 I think it is where is like seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. So we get hung up on the stuff and it's just about the person. That's so true. Yeah, yeah. That's a I'm a big believer in finding the truth, you know what I'm saying? And for a long time, like I identified as Christian, but I didn't really I don't feel like I knew what that meant. I know I didn't know what that meant. Yeah, I thought I did. You know, and, Yeah. Same. And I just, like, I got really into like, stoicism, right. And philosophy, which I think those things are fine. Like, I'm not saying but I it's. And there's truth in those things. But what you quickly realize is that truth stems from the ultimate truth. Who is Christ? I am the truth, the way and the life. Really? Yeah. You're looking for the, You know, you hero. That's. I'm looking for my way. I'm looking at you. Don't say I'm looking for my truth I hate you. Yeah, I shouldn't say I really dislike moral relativism as a philosophy. I think it's very dangerous, you know? Definitely. I'm looking for my truth. I'm looking for my way. Right. You ever hear. I'm looking for my light, but, you know, like, you know, it's you, but you like. No, you don't need to look for your way. Yeah, you don't need to look for your truth. You need to look for the way. Yes, for the truth. And you will find the peace in the person of Jesus Christ, you know. And that and I going back to the will thing. I recently learned this. It was on an Instagram I can't know the guy's name, but it really resonated with me because this is like a couple months ago. I still think about it now. I think about the idea of will and following, like we've talked about following the Lord's will and finding the will for yourself. And he was talking about that as well. And he was like, I really searched this. And he was like, it came to me in his thought, this idea, this thought. Right? And he said the thought said, which I believe obviously. And he said it was a spirit. Right. Whatever you can do that leads you to love me more than anything, to love me fully in that thing that is my will. Yeah. It's good. You know what I'm saying? That to me, they really resonate. I'm like. Like, boy, that job that you had, that was you were really struggling with that. Clearly you were able to love the Lord with all your heart. My mind and soul, where you were and you leaving and doing what you're doing now as a faithful founder has like, it's been great that you've been able to supply for your family and you feel fulfilled and you feel happy and you're like, I don't work for this place I don't like anymore, you know what I'm saying? But from what I'm hearing from you, is that it led you to love the Lord. Our minds and and strength and full heart. Right. And that's what the. The Lord doesn't care what you do. Exactly. You could be a garbage man, which we need. Job, by the way. They marry what you do. You can be a soldier. Or was. I was a long time ago. A founder, a teacher. Doesn't matter. An employee. It just doesn't matter. Are you able to love the Lord fully in that vocation you have? No. You're not supposed to be there. That's right. That is the will of the Lord. So true. Yeah. You know, day. That's good. But. Yeah. No, but it's all right. Yeah. I think that's my job to. Explain this until you make your. I think it comes down to like what is important in life because it's so we get so caught up in the, the stuff of life and careers and goals and we're very goal driven and accomplishment driven people. Yeah, in our society especially. But I remember a story from one of my, mentors in Africa, he talked about this old man or this man in Africa who just lived his whole life under a palm tree, and he would kind of eat the food that came in, would work odd jobs here and there. But he just sat on the beach in, like, would chill under a palm tree, relaxed. And then he said, over across the on the other side of the world, you have these, this man who went to ten years of college and worked 80 hours a week so that when he turned 65, he could retire and sit under a palm tree on the beach. Yeah. So it's just like. That's a great parable, as in that we. Just get so caught up in the stuff. And I feel like if we really tried to seek first the kingdom and do things the Jesus way and live the Jesus style of life, it'll just look so much healthier and so much better than what I think society could ever offer us. Now, I think that where everyone searching for like, oh, what's healthy for me? Like what's, which I think is important, you know, but the Lord is a great physician. He's a great healer. He's health. Yeah. Yeah, he is true. He is, he is. And we we wrap up. I want to ask you one more question because you talk about ambition and goals. I think in order to be a founder, you need to be ambitious, goal oriented. One thing that I've been struggling with right now, maybe that's trying to wrestling with the idea of like, how do I harmonize my ambition and wanting to be successful with what the Lord has said, you know, and, and, in, in living a humble life. Yeah. And and, you know, and if someone asks for a story, give him your cloak as well, which, I actually just learned, a lot of history in context behind that parable, which is really interesting. I would love to hear that after the. Yeah, for sure. But, anyways. But, you know, balancing ambition with, you know, your love for the Lord. I mean, I'm not sure if you've ever thought about that, but yeah. I think it's so important to, like, be a person of action. And for me personally, I found that I get so much more done and I'm so much more productive when I'm not stressed out and when I'm not operating out of fear or, striving, really. And I feel like there's a difference between working and striving. And I when I am stressed and I'm in my work mode. No, I shouldn't say work mode, because I do have a good there's a good work mode and a bad road. Yeah. Where, when I'm working out of a place of stress and anxiety and, like, trying to grind and hustle and, like, force my way into something. Yeah. It's different than when I am being driven by. There's. There's almost like there's a grace on it, and there's, just a different energy that comes with working out of a place of knowing this is what I'm supposed to be doing, as as opposed to working out of a place of, I need to do this so that I can achieve this thing. Like, it's that you're filling your which are called to do like that. Yeah. And. Yeah. And I'm working. It's it's good to work out of a place of I'm contributing and I'm doing something that's productive and like, this just feels right. As opposed to, I'm doing this thing because I'm lacking. And, it's there's almost like a negative focus to it. Yeah. So when I'm, when I feel secure in my identity and when I feel, at peace, when I feel it's almost like working out of a place of rest. Yeah. Which is awesome. Where do you feel like, turning out a phrase? This question like, I believe one of the purposes, obviously the the ultimate purpose is to know God through his son, Jesus Christ. Right? And to follow him and to be with him again. Right. That that is the purpose of, of our lives. Right? And to grow in Christ. But I feel like one of like the sub purposes, I guess, right, is to is to fulfill our binge like God made us with potential, like, almost unlimited potential. Yeah, because we are. He calls us children of God. He adopts us right into his, you know, into his family. And he is the creator of our souls. Right? And we know that God is limitless. He is our nation on the power. You know, you know all those things, right? He is unlimited. He is the thing that was before all things that created all things and cannot be contained. Right? Yeah. And so if we're created by a God is amazing is he is I feel like our potential is almost limitless, right? Oh, hell yeah. Because we're I say almost because we're not God. Clearly. Yeah, right. And we do have a limit, right? Because of our of what we are. Right. You know, with that being said, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that of of feeling potential. And I guess going back to honoring the creation is it's a you made that vase. Well, now it's time to fill wine or. Yeah, the flowers and a and to, to fulfill its potential or I would. Say just humility. Yeah. Is probably the number one thing I feel like pride hijacks so many people's potential and then the Bible so clear. God is so clear. He gives grace to the humble. And I think if we if we're and then go back to a work thing like I think having ambition and goals is like amazing. It's a great sign that, you know, like you're not being lazy. You know, it's like. Yeah, but the Bible talks about soulfulness, right? So band. Right? Yeah. It's terrible. There's a clearly a balance, right? Yeah. But then I found the phrasing I was looking for. It's like working at a place of passion and fulfillment. You get so much more done, you're so much more productive. So it's like we need to find that place of passion and fulfillment. And then obviously we're not always going to feel like working. You know? Very sure. Yeah. But even in that, it's like, I, I know, like, kick myself in the back a little bit, like be my own boss, make myself work. Yeah. But ultimately it's, it's, you're, you're the most satisfied when you're working at that place of passion fulfillment. And when you're doing that, you're way more likely to reach your potential. You know, the highest points. Yeah. Because if they're not, God can fill the bass. He's the one. Yeah. Or zealot or he's the one that puts the the flowers and. Right. It's not us. Right. It's. Yeah. The creation. Yet he fills us. Yeah, yeah. And it's like I mean it's probably a terrible image, but it's kind of like the stock market is it's it's a journey. If you, if you put an investment in like 15 years ago, you know, you might have a few heart attacks along the way. But if you check it now, it's probably way higher than it was. And you hopefully, you know, maybe. Yeah, if it was made in the right thing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So if you have a peace with God it, it's like all right. Yeah I really feel it. And I really feel like this is our blockbuster. You know, let's say that's, we avoid. The. The blockbusters are from the devil. Yeah. You know, Apple and Tesla. Eyes from the Lord. All of those. Yeah. But I think just being just also having a grace for yourself to where if you are feeling burnt out, if you're feeling discouraged, take a step back, take a breath and just remember it's a journey. And you could just be in a really low place right now. But a year from now you could be at a super high point. You just gotta stick with it. If you feel like that's what God wants you to do. I want to. I feel like I need to say this as we end today to the the Christian founder, the faithful founder that's listening to this is, I believe that a part and maybe the most important part of being a faithful founder is a transformation that takes place, like allowed a transformation to occur, because there's a lot of suffering, a lot of hardship. Being a founder. There's also a lot of opportunities to be prideful. And you need to humble yourself and, and, and bridle the passions and find the balance. I there are so many. It's like a microcosm of life and being a founder, you know, the highs and the lows, the hardships, the blessings, right. All of those things. And it transforms you. It changes you. It has to. If you're doing it right, you will walk away a different person, right? Yeah. But when you're doing that, when you've yoked yourself with Christ in that journey, that transformation is to serve an entirely higher purpose. Right. And that would be my message to any faithful founders to embrace that transformation, as you have. Clearly so good, awesome. One of that day, TJ, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having us. Ali. Your brother, if you don't know Jesus, get to know all it's worth it. Rather.