Faithful Founder

Breaking the Hustle Mindset: Faith, Healing, and Purpose for Founders

• Jamie Cain • Episode 3

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How do faith-driven entrepreneurs break free from the hustle culture and step into purpose and peace? In this insightful episode of The Faithful Founder Podcast, Jamie Cain is joined by Jahmaal Marshall, founder of Listen Then Speak LLC, to discuss the deep connection between faith, healing, and sustainable leadership.

Jahmaal shares powerful lessons from his journey of overcoming trauma, battling burnout, and rediscovering rest through biblical principles. Together, they tackle the mental health struggles many founders face, offering actionable advice on how to prioritize healing, embrace rest, and lead businesses that glorify God.

Whether you’re a founder wrestling with imposter syndrome, burnout, or the pressures of entrepreneurship, this episode offers hope and practical steps for finding true purpose and balance.

New episodes release monthly. Subscribe now and join the growing community of faithful founders transforming the world for God’s glory!

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You talk about healing from your perspective. What does that mean when you sit down with someone you talk about? We've got to begin with healing. What do you mean by that? Whatever is not revealed will not be healed. And if you think about the very things that people come to you with, like let's say in the discovery call or the consultation, they're coming to you with symptoms, you know. Absolutely. Even before, years ago, 15 years ago, I went through counseling. I came with symptoms. You know, of what I thought? This is the problem. This is the addiction. This is the hold up. This is where I'm stuck. This is the cog in the wheel. Yeah. I came with the fruit. I came with a basket of actually, what seemed ugly to me, but actually looking very pretty. If you turn any apple tree upside down, it's actually really ugly. The uglier things were the things at the root. And so that's where healing comes in. And that's where it's not just healing. We're actually not just healing the heart, the wheel. We're also healing the brain because the brain has been turned a certain way and our development. Faithfulness is at the core of me being about. Good business values and ethics comes from. The Bible. Lead with a relationship with Christ. Lead with your knowledge of the gospel to guide you. And so we'll go and jump in everybody. Welcome to faithful founder. I got Jamal Marshall here. Jamal was, recommended to me by my good friend Jonathan Baer, who's also been on the show. JB the masses, he spoke very, very highly of Jamal. So, Jamal, it's I'm really excited to sit down with you and have this conversation about being a faithful founder. How you doing, man? Bro. Thanks for having me, man. I really appreciate you and Nathan bringing me on. And I'm strong. Well, I mean, I'm here with you. Happy Monday. Let's go with. Yeah good weekend. Good. I'm glad we finally got a break out here. Like it was like below. Like I was like in the 30s and we're. Yeah these and 50s over the weekend. So in D.C. around this time, you just always. I feel you in there. So I, I'm actually from Virginia originally. My dad is from Northern Virginia, right around the DC area. I grew up in southern Virginia and Roanoke. If you're familiar with Roanoke at all, so is. Yeah, yeah. I'm not a huge fan of Roanoke, but I do miss the Blue Ridge Mountains every once in a while. But, Jamal, also, if you wouldn't mind just real quick giving, us a real quick introduction to who you are and what you do. You got it. Those those are like, that's like my no, no question in DC because everybody said what do you do. I know, I know yeah. What are you about. How about that. Hey we go so hey what's that everybody I'm Jamal Marshall, CEO and founder of listen This speak LLC. So I tackled burnout, and stress at the root with proven methods to two extra time and maximize your productivity. I also do consulting, and I'm a podcast, my podcast host myself. My podcast is listen then speak. That's where you can find us. I love that. Why, why focus on burnout, man? Because it's so prevalent. Not just in the corporate community, but it's also prevalent, especially in entrepreneurism, unity. I don't I can't give statistic numbers, but divorce is actually higher amongst entrepreneurs and solopreneurs than it is even amongst corporate workers. And there's a high divorce rate there, not just for the sake of marriage. But I think that word, especially when you think about the mental health and wellness space, it can kind of get overused and people see the root causes that lead to it. But the focus is on that because we are literally rewired. I'm not going to say wired because I think we're wired by God to function a certain way, but we've been rewired by our by how we've been nurtured nature around us, this world system, and also the spiritual influence to just go, go, go, go, go. And we take that wiring and that wiring actually forms neural pathways and inform how we behave. And sometimes we will behave ourself right into a quicksand of not just burnout. Like I'm really tired where it actually is affecting our physical health. It's actually affecting our performance and we're not performing in an efficient, optimal level. So but more importantly, the focus is there because I started off as an addictions counselor. So I understand how the brain works, I understand neuroplasticity, I understand the clinical formation of what goes into that. And so actually addressing high stress and burnout at the root, because if you don't, you're really just wasting time and. And chasing your own tail. It sounds like. Right. It's interesting that you say that because I, we literally just cut off one episode and we jumped on a record with you and we ended it. I was so not that I meant to, but talking about neuroplasticity, well, I talked about the book mindset by Carol Dweck, which is, one of my favorite books of all time, all about neuroplasticity in the growth mindset. And we talked about, just exactly what that you said, which is really exciting that we get to dive into this with somebody that is an expert from a, a counseling perspective, a mental health perspective. Right. Because, I struggled with and not not even struggled with I struggle today currently with the if I'm not producing, if I'm not acting, if I'm not on go, go, go go mindset that I'm I am a failure, right? I've tied my identity into being the productive guy, being the go getter guy, the hustler, the hustle mindset, right is one of those things that I know. I think social media put a ton into that. You know, of the if you, me, nationally and a founder, you got to be a hustler, right? And look, I'm not saying you ain't got to grind. You got to work hard because if you're gonna be a founder, you absolutely do as you well know. But what you're talking about is, making time. It sounds like, for the more important things of your life, making time for mental health for your family on married, have children. Those things matter to me more than anything outside of my relationship with Christ, you know? So, you know, I guess my question for you is, how would you where do you start with entrepreneurs and founders, like when they say, well, I just said to you what I mean, talk to me. What would you say to me? Oh, I love this. We we get right into it. And we're entrepreneurs and founders. It's a little different. You know, I work with individual contributors, which obviously are, you know, CEOs and heads of businesses working in corporate with VP, senior leaders and middle managers is a lot different because there's already HR, there's already marketing, and there's already legal setup for them. You know, when you're an entrepreneur, you are it. Yeah you're it. I'm in a real fast I will say I don't interrupt you. But then my I was in sales before and so if the individual contributor part of it I definitely felt burnt out being there as well. So you're absolutely right. But it is the you said to your point there are resources for that. So I just wanted to confirm what you were saying. Yeah. Oh no. Yeah. Because the burnout so different. Like I work in corporate obviously I'm a business owner now and I've worked in the nonprofit space. And so I have reference for all three. So I know how to tailor my services. But what I say to you, it's not even so much like I want to go back to your question about like, saving time, because again, we want to get past like the little buzzwords or I just want to save time. I want to put value. My family, my community, my church, so on, so forth, what have you. Where is the time going and why? Let's ask the question why are we wasting that time? Or where is that time going? Why do I feel the need to be an object of productivity? And then we go back to let's take some history lessons. You know, for in this country, we're always talking about, you know, different things in history. And I'm not going to get controversial, but a lot of us don't understand history, even our family. Yeah. And let's go back to where we were in the industrial age. Like I had the opportunity. I won't say privilege, but I worked in a factory in the Midwest in 2010. And so literally, if if one cog in the wheel screwed up, it screwed up the whole line. And you best believe when those great bobcats came downstairs, someone was going to get chewed up. And so we were literally trained to be objects of productivity because productive people do what they just churn out more, they do more and they do more. What you want to do, even though productivity is a part of my profile, you want to learn to be efficient. How do we do the same thing? And actually, how do we get the same result? By doing less? And why do I believe that I need to do more? What has been hard, I want to say hardwire because that can connote finality, but what has been rewired into my brain that tells me what narrative ever I believe that's informing how I behave. So for you, right, it's like we will be literally going back. Let's go back before we go forward to where whether it was social media, whether it was parenting, whether it was schooling, we had to do that narrative. And have you taken it and ran with it? And where we need to address it as a root cause, we can play on the surface and say, hey, I'm giving you a gift card, go take your bubble bath, go to the amusement park. You know, sit around on a couch, you don't sleep away. Burnout. That's not even clinical or even biblical way to address it. Does that make. Sense? Absolutely. Yeah. We can't we can't go down that rabbit hole because that'll be, there's gotta be a lot of a lot of time and money that I don't have for you, unfortunately, but that's, No, I, I appreciate you saying that. And you said, Yeah. I mean, there's so many good things that you said there, but you said the biblical way of handling burnout, right? So you're you're a faithful founder, right, Christian? Oh, yeah. For sure. Right. Do your methodologies, do they stem from the Christian value system, from the teachings of Christ? Who would you say that? Name the ancient writings. Try seven times in the fire. Why would they not ask a. Hundred percent man? So when you say the biblical way of handling burnout, right, what does that look like? Because we are speaking to faithful founders. Okay, speak to your faithful followers. And I'm sure some of you guys are scholars. So you guys probably have a doctorate in seminary. And so you think about always go from an ag perspective. What is AG mean? The answers are in Genesis. So we know we only get two good chapters out of the Bible. It just goes downhill from there. Okay. So let's think about Genesis three, unfortunately where the curse came intact, right where that curse came in. We as men, you know, and nowadays as women were cursed to, to earn and to have prosperity from the sweat of our rule. Yeah, we typically tend to reinforce that curse when we get into a hustle and a productivity mindset, because we men began to remove God and trust our own ingenuity, our own smarts, our own marketing, our own teams, our own. Yeah. Our own, you know, virtual whatever those things is that are that we have set up. We begin to trust that and move away from the very person that called us to man the post. Understanding that man in the post also includes rest. You know, we forget if you think about I'm speaking to founders and people who who are outside of corporate. You know, people say, what's the I love sending that little GIF or Jif or whatever you like to call it, of, out there from now. We're getting controversial, dude. Yeah, that's that's not the podcast. I love sending that meme of her. What she says. What's a weekend? You know, because we we kind of live like there. It's like, man, I'm of here. I'm. Yeah. And we forget. That. Even in Genesis two it says God rested on the seventh day. This is the creator of the cosmos. If he rested, who are we to outdo him? And so when we look at biblical principle and we look at even Judeo principle of rest of Sabbath, many times we'll read and like, okay, that's good. We'll even teach and sit under a Bible study. We'll even put together studies on it, and then ignore the very principles there in our own lives and suffer as a result. Does that make. Sense? 100%? Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the principle that, Sabbath Sabbath was made for man, not man for Sabbath. Right? That and it's it's. Yeah. I mean, I make a point as best I can to rest on the Sabbath. I go to church, spend time with the family, try to work. Not always. Is that the case? I'm not perfect by any means, right. It continually happens where I fall into the trap of this is just got to get done. And then I was like, the ox in the mire. And he does just had to get done. But a lot of times it could wait to the next moment. Right. It sounds like to me I could be wrong. So tell me, it sounds like to me a lot of your, the principles that you teach off of in the methods that you use are based in healing. Right? And like you said, going back to the root cause you, I mean, going back to the root cause of humanity, which is the fall, right? Entering into the fall. Right? Rejecting God and thinking we knew better, trying to become, trying to become God. As Satan tempted Adam and Eve to do right. Oh no. Yeah. That's it. I'm not. I'm not a theology major either, but I know a little bit. So when you say healing, because that can mean all different things and and it's individual. Right. But when you talk about healing from your perspective, what does that mean when you sit down with some of you talk about we've got to begin with healing. What do you mean by that? Whatever is not revealed will not be healed. And if you think about the very things that people come to you with, like let's say in the discovery call or the consultation, they're coming to you with symptoms, you know, absolutely. Even before years ago, 15 years ago, I went through counseling. I came with symptoms. You know, of what I thought? This is the problem. This is the addiction. This is the hold up. This is where I'm stuck. This is the cog in the wheel. Yeah. I did not come. I came with the fruit. I came with a basket of actually, what seemed ugly to me, but actually looking very pretty. If you turn any apple tree upside down, it's actually really ugly. The uglier things were the things at the root. And so that's where healing comes in and that's where. And that's just healing. We're actually not just healing the heart, the wheel. We're also healing the brain because the brain has been turned a certain way in our development through whether it's an addiction, whether it's a mindset, it's been retarded, you know, through years of unaddressed issues that we've never taken a look at. And so it's hard to actually say, well, let me face myself down for where I've been, and not a way that causes you to bemoan your own existence. That's not effective, you know? But I believe that healing must first take place beneath the surface. The things that are presented, you know, and and their discernment is extremely important because no matter what a prospect or a client says to me, I have to be able to discern beyond what they present. So we actually address the root specifically and then develop a path forward, tailor to them so they get the results that matter to them. You know, why is it important that a founder goes on a healing journey? Because it would be really easy. Like, like, I'm not going to lie to you right now. My brain's like, I just got too much to do. Like, I don't have time to sit down and do the counseling and the hard work that because, like, the healing is, is hard work, right? Is that it is not an easy journey, like I've done the therapy thing, I've done like and it worked. It helped, but it wasn't easy. It wasn't pleasant. And to know that I have all these other things that I have to take care of, not only from a business perspective, from a discipleship perspective or a family perspective. Why should founders prioritize this? Because it's not just, you know, for me, it's the I think for a lot of founders, man, it's that if you're not if you're not moving, you're failing kind of mindset. If you're not being productive, which can be anti productive. I have found a lot of times because the busy work and the productivity isn't the efficiency. It isn't the best thing that you can do in that moment. You're ignoring the prioritization there really takes to be successful. Right. So why does the faithful founder specifically need to take these moments to heal, to address it, to address these underlying issues that may be a detriment to their founder journey? Yeah. I want us to all pause and just kind of lean in and really listen. Will your business grow to the degree that you do? And that is on period. One of my favorite quotes in one of the books that I do some coaching through is Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. And one of the. My favorite quotes in that book by Steve Cool is to begin with the end of mine. Now, I know I'm saying that and kind of visionary. And this is like, oh, don't run me those Campbell quotes. I just don't feel like me preach that right now. And we can only really see so much at the end. And so a lot of times, even some things that you and I are saying right now can file or people say is I want to speak as pragmatically and down to earth as possible. If you don't take the journey of personal development, you will literally sabotage your business and not understand why. Because there are specific trials. You know that and test that God is invited into each of our life to level us up so we can grow. One thing I tell each of my clients, for those who were around in the early 2000s and late 90s, God is more glean than al Gore ever was. He is a master recycler, and he will recycle those trials over and over again and take you around that mountain until you surrender and say, yes, it gets harder the longer we take. And so for founders say, I'm too busy to make that investment. For those people who aren't 27 and I'm one of them who will be turning 40 pretty soon, and who no longer have that brickhouse body and physique just by waking up in the morning. Any trainer will tell you, like when you make that investment, you know, with them, this is going to be hard. But anything worth getting or worth gaining takes hard work. And so you have to ask yourself, faithful founder, is this something that I want? Is this an investment I want to make now to accelerate my growth and set me up for sustainable success? Or is this something I want to just ignore until I run and hit a brick wall? Because you're talking to one who hit a brick wall? I don't do what I do just because I do what I do because of my story. Yeah, let's go into that. I mean, first of all, you know, nations in your by producers within you said your business grows, you know, to the point that you grow. And we both look at each other like, that's a friggin gold mine right there. That's, that's that line was there's so much truth to that. And I felt it in my soul because I have I've grown so much since starting this journey, as an individual, as a man, as a husband, as a founder, obviously. But I haven't looked at it as a lens of self-development. I haven't looked at it as a lens of I need to continue to get better. I've looked at it as the business needs to continue to get better, and I have fell into the imposter syndrome. So much of, you know, I know I'm a founder, but am I? Am I a CEO? Am I am I a CEO of a successful, you know, software startup in a very competitive field? Is that who I am? Right. Actually, let me ask you that before we get into your story, because I know a lot of founders that it sounds like you, you know, know this as well. The imposter syndrome is very, very real. Right. And I have found there's ways to get around that. One of them is action, right. Like actual meaningful action, you know. But what do you say to those who struggle with the imposter syndrome of feeling like, yeah, not enough in or if I ever can become who I ought to be to make this successful, to be successful. I'm gonna say something that's not pretty sexy. Let's remove that from Marvel category. Let's go back to ancient truth. Try seven times on the fire. Proverbs 23 seven as a man or woman, for the ladies who are listening thinks in their heart. So easy, so easy. And so if you think, well, that's what I think, well, let's change that. You know, what does God say about you? Where is he positioned to do anything that he's called you to? He's going to give you the grace to carry you through. I don't invalidate the fact that we go into some spaces with multi-millionaires, multi-billionaire, some of us, and it's just like, whoa, Emma, Emma on their level. Like, why am I even here? You're there because God qualified you to be there. Absolutely. And it's not like this false confidence, this false bravado. I don't know if you ever been into the inner city, but people can tell when you're not from the neighborhood. Yeah, I ain't gonna lie. Okay? He's. He's acting a little, you know, funny. He's looking around, kind of looking over his shoulder, you know, so there is a bit of a fake it. So you make it. Sure. Yeah. Act as if. Right? Yeah. Act as if. And it's like we, we learn even in Scripture, so to speak, those things that are not as though they were. It's like faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. It's like, you know what? This may not be actualized yet, but I'm gonna act like it's true. You think about anybody, even in an addiction, part of the healing process. Like when they're not feeling it, when they haven't had sobriety from drinking or smoking or pornography or whatever it is under their belt. They are literally doing affirmations and telling themselves, I'm healed. This is what I am, this is who I am. And so the very words we say are spirit. You know, even neurologically, the very things you face is life and death in the power of the tongue. And so the very thing you say is the prophecy you fulfill. And so going into these spaces, it's just like, this is who I am, this is what I am. And then remembering second Corinthians 1012, they compare themselves amongst themselves and they weren't wise. One thing I pray over every day is not compare myself with another entrepreneur, because we stood in a big circle and everyone put their problems in a circle. I'm like, you know what, take your problem back. I don't want it. And sometimes we compare ourself against a hyper curated image. People are putting their best stuff online. You know, you look like somebody who watches sports. I can guarantee you, as busy entrepreneurs, you are rarely sitting down watching a 3.5 hour football game. I can statement highlights on ESPN. Yeah, I don't have that type of time. Yeah. And so that's not including the the flags, the injuries, the red flags, the booster reviews. I'm not getting any of that stuff. I'm just getting all the pretty stuff. And a lot of that is what we see. And so that reinforces, you know, and our brains and our minds and our hearts, the impostor syndrome, where we think, I don't belong in this space. And the more we believe that our demeanor tends to exhibit that and then we behave in that way. Yeah. And so for those who are struggling in imposter syndrome, go back to truth. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. But practice it consistently so it becomes a party. It's like a nature. Yeah. That was yeah. Let's just end there. Right there. That was it. That was beautiful, man. Thank you. I, I mean, call me crazy Jamal, but what it sounds like you're saying is that, the Bible contains truth and ways to live. Yeah. It's, I find it, you know, it gets really old when you see people talk about how the Bible is just a, mythological fairy tale about, bearded man that lives in the sky. Right? You know, because that's. Look, there's opponents of Christianity, opponents of the faith, opponents of the Bible that act like there's no substance to what we believe. Like, I'm I'm very. I got really into Christian apologetics, like a year and a half, two years ago. Like, really into it because I'm like, I want to know that I've always believed that you should not just hold opinions, but you should know why you believe what you believe. And being able to articulate it clearly like you have done with what you clearly believe and know to be true. I not that I, I don't say that I find it insulting, but I almost I find it ridiculous when someone says there's no substance, there is just a fairy tale book that's, that has, you know, I don't want to kindergarten, but very low level education value is written by simpletons or people that just wanted to control people with fear or going hell or whatever it may be. Everything you said articulated clearly shows that there is wisdom that is timeless in God's Word. And what do you have to say about that, bro? I mean, before we move to the podcast, I mean, let's just keep it a stack some of the and speaking because I know these are probably brilliant minds that you were speaking about. Let's just speak from an entrepreneurship standpoint. Colby himself, Myron Golden Golden les Brown, to a lesser extent, Jordan Peterson, because I don't know where he really is. Virtually no one does a CEO. Yeah. Someone most brilliant minds, who have some of the largest business and brands referenced the Bible or Christians. And so if you think about even the, the standards of higher education, or at least what they used to be, such as Harvard, Stanford, Oxford, they started off as Christian universities. And so when people come with that argument, I can get into a thing and kind of go back and forth. One I've never seen a line that needed defending. And so I'm not going to defend. I'm sure, the. Lion of Judah, I'm going to trust the Holy Spirit to do what he does is to convict of sin. But also to challenge them on the principles that they live by and on morality. I remember I had a friend, who I was sitting across in science class when I was in college. I was just a boy. I was like 19. And I said, if I just jump over this table and slap you, what? I'll be well, she said, yeah, why would you do that? I said, what's the law? What makes that long? Yeah. And then she listed a number of things that would make that wrong and how cops will come get me. I said, you're listing a moral code that is biblical. You don't even realize it. Yeah. And so the more people go in on the Bible, I just say you're living by biblical principles without even knowing it. Because God has set eternity in the heart of every man. It's, there's a I heard a saying recently that said, you know, goldfish don't know that they're swimming in water. They're just. They just are. That's what we are today. Or more, we're moral individuals. I believe in objective morality, but we don't realize we're swimming in Christian waters. Right. And that's what it is. No, I do I want to go into your journey because your journeys, what's catapulted to where you are today. Right? Oh, the catalyst to, you know, what you do today. Let's talk about that. What what led you to this moment, knowing these truths. Because clearly, you know them very well and you know them because it sounds like you practice them. Like you're not just saying what you think is right. You're saying what you know is right because of practice and action. I can at least that's what I can tell. Well, spider man, and it took a long time to get to a place of real spiritual authority. You seem like somebody of discernment. And you can tell when somebody's just parroting what they heard. Or they went on Instagram and kind of got the latest tone from never spoke versions. Okay. Do they live this? Do they know this? This is in them. Yeah. And I can often detect when there is spiritual authority versus that person. Just know the right thing to say. So I'll start off as it started off as a little kid, I grew up in a house that was pretty balance. And so I didn't, you know, understand until I was maybe 6 or 7, you know, that I had one parent that was absolutely divine, my mom, and one that wasn't even it had to be Satan himself, and that would be my dad. And so he was an alcoholic and a heroin and crack addict. That created a lot of imbalance in our house. And he was very unpredictable at those times and even physically abusive at times. And so with that produced and he was a lot of fear, you know. And so I knew, okay, if anything can set him off, let me find every exhale to walk on to keep things really capacity. And now this may go over the heads of some people who grew up behind the picket fence. But I'm both familiar with this. And so growing up, you know, I made sure everything was excellent. You know, and band. I was first chair, I made straight A's. You know, there were a whole lot of complaints from teachers, you know, just in any place I was, I did everything perfectly. I never tried to kick up the dust or troll the waters, but it may have seemed excellent on the surface, but it was a trauma response is because that was my cloak. That was my way of protecting myself, because I did not feel safe. And so, you know, and I did not also feel loved because, you know, from at least from my father's perspective, I felt like I had to earn his love and do everything I could to not piss him off. And so you fast forward as a professional, you know, I was always the dependable one, the stud. You know, we can all depend on Jamal first to get to work last elite, you know, always ahead on the projects. I mean, I went above and beyond. It's like, let me just overdeliver on productivity and undeliverable drama. And I remember I had left, Department of Justice, you know, and I've gone through counseling myself as soon after they had asked me, you know, to be an intern. And so from there, I worked in administration, quality control, website quality control. Boring for anyone that does that. I'm so sorry, but you just put me to sleep. But I graduated and got my degree in counseling and psychology, and so they said, we want to actually put you to training. So that's when I trained with IBC International Association and Biblical Train Counselors, and I trained with two other associations. So we had multiple things that went into my certification. And then in 2013, they sent me to the counseling department and by 2015, our organization went through a split. And I mean half the staff, half the senior staff and half the other staff left. And so myself and the staff that remained had to really step up and responsibility. So that increased. That doubled my caseload and also became the head, the coordinator of our remote program. You know, through that program, I designed a whole curriculum for our counselors because we had people who were coming on staff who did not know how to take a student and a client, like through the process. And I said, oh, no, we can't do that on my watch. Not to mention I was also going into prisons in Indiana every Friday. And it got to the point where I was starting to hit a wall, but I didn't want to complain. You know, we had gone through a big split, and it's just like I was from my own. Even I had become a counselor, and I was churning out clients that we're having a life changing transformation. There was still remnants of my old trauma within me, and I remember one day getting pulled into the office of the the director, and he said, you know, we feel like some clients and people here don't have enough access to you. And I said, what I'm thinking I'm the first to get the word. I'm the last to leave. What is this guy you talking about? My thoughts were just riveting. And I said, was there some merit, you know, to what he said? I was just really ticked off and I was just like, I really worked my tail off. And it hit me that I spent most of my life just so concerned about what other people think, that I created this narrative, that they had that expectation that Jamal will or Jamal never needs a break. You know, and so fast forward, I had to even from there, take myself to some mastermind, some deeper counseling, some deeper mentoring, you know, to develop, you know, my renew you framework that I have today that actually the 12 weeks that I take clients through because it's like I want people to save all the time that I lost trying to be everything for everybody. Yeah, that's powerful man. I think. I know a lot of people. I'll be honest, I have never struggled with the yes mentality. I was raised to be able to say no. You know, to a certain extent, you know, my daughter clearly know that I say no to I can tell you that. But, yeah. She's. Yeah, she's pretty stubborn. But with that being said, I know a lot of people that struggle with that yes mentality that like, whatever you got, I'll take care of it. Don't worry about it. And I what I will say is that I really bought into the hustler mindset, like, early in my career. Like, I moved to Florida, I took a job and I was like, I'm gonna work my way up. I'm becoming like the VP of this. Like, I was all in, like I was listening to, like, every entrepreneurship podcast, every, like, just like, you know what I'm saying? Like every guru out there, I'm like, I was all the way. I was read all the books on the podcast. I was getting in at eight in the morning.

I was not leaving till 7 or 8:

00 at night, dude, like, just like you was doing it. Right? So I guess I wasn't good in saying no more when it came to my career. Right? When it came to that, I was like, I remember one time I left the office early because I was working my tail off, decided to go leave the office early. Like I said, I was leaving Florida. I was like, Maybe I'll go hit the beach today, go relax a little bit. I'm driving and then I get a phone call from my boss saying, hey, where'd you go? I need you. And I'm like, and I like, flipped to you. He was like, weaving through traffic. I had a Wrangler at the time. I literally went over a median to go there. I was all in, dude, I was gone, dude, because it was taken too long, you know, I was that I read, like, forever. So I go through, I get to the office and so I gotta figure it out. I was like, you got to be freaking kidding me, man. You know what I'm saying? So I guess I take back what I said about the MLA thing. You know, when it came to my professional life, I clearly did not, because I had bought in to the hustler mindset. And then I say all this because I want to bring it to a point of, and then it failed me. I went through a really hard. I haven't talked about this on the podcast yet, but we might as well, since we're talking on mental health today, I went through a really tough mental breakdown, like very difficult, with diagnosis and stuff and had to go through therapy, all those things. And I lost, like, I think I was 30 pounds in two months. I mean, I was pretty rough, dude. The only I could do was walk to make myself feel better and I, I walked like an average of like four hours a day. I would go I two, I was there Covid twos. There's a lot more time obviously and I and and then from all that I like utterly rejected everything that came with that culture, everything. And there are some good things with it. It's not all bad. Not everything's all. I mean, there's many things that are pure evil and we all know that. But like, there were some things I think about in that, that you can take and apply, just not everything. And in rejecting that, I found that I lost a lot of my internal motivation, a lot of my internal fire. Right. I actually gave up my entrepreneurial drive and dreams for a long time and just said, I'm this to be a really, really good employee. Make a lot of good money, get below the 41K, make some investments and call it good. I can't be the entrepreneur. I can't be the founder. I stopped reading as I listen to podcasts. I did all those things because I was so far bought in, and then I just failed and failed and failed and then finally had the mental break right. And I don't think I'm the only one that's ever experienced that. What what do you say to people that did that did buy into that, like you and I did like they're all the time and then experience like you. Sounds like you did as well. That break of just like this isn't working, man. You know. Bro, for those who are not seeing this on video or just listen to this in my head, nod at like 16 times what Jamie was talking because this like, he's like literally speaking my life. I've gone where I've left work and then came back. Or also I was in environments where you're on call and like, never turn it off. My walkie never turned off my pager, keeping teams on, keeping all sorts of things, devices on like a WhatsApp. Because I also work for a global community. So it's like, okay, it's it's freaking three in the morning. What am I still doing up working? I mean, I could I could tell you guys crazy stories. And so it, it really had to do with what I believed and also doing work that was not assigned to me, you know, worked for other teams. It's like, okay, what's Mattel and you guys get bonus you know. Yeah I'm been there too, man. That's it. You're you're you're you're speaking my language man of fortunately. It had everything to do with with what I believed that was informing my behavior, diving into the narrative. You know, for you, it may have been a little different because that hustle, like when you take in all that stuff like hustle, culture, entrepreneurship 101, that's what it's teaching, you know? And for me, coming back from a traumatic past, it's like that. I didn't realize if you ever seen a mack truck, you know, what is it? Be some pretty big guys. It's driving these truck. So five year old me, 12 year old me was literally driving a mack truck, a 12 year old is not designed to handle something that large. There was an adult body, but a 12 year old with all these childhood narratives of fear saying, this is what I need to do to keep pace. I'm going a little deeper now, folks, and make sure you hang with me. And so I would say, for those who are hearing, who are listening to me and Jamie now, Jamie hit a wall. I hit a wall. Quit while you're ahead. And I know that's easier said than done, but take this as a warning sign. You know, you think about this. You ever done a personal training program and then you have an entry because you went to heart. Your trainer is saying, hey, I just want you to pace yourself. And I'm like, no, no, this is my goal. I gotta fit into this tux because I'm in my brother's wedding, yada yada yada, or I mean, my girlfriend wedding. I got to fit into this dress and then you have an injury, and then you're out of the gym for three weeks to a month, and then what you're going to do a lot of times, and in our work, whether it's in our careers or an entrepreneur, should we push ourselves so hard and then we're completely incapacitated. And so for those who are hearing and you think, well, Jamie and Jamaal are in my journal right now, this is a warning sign to actually make the investment in you going back your business is going to grow to the degree that you do, and we don't even realize we're doing so much and being productive, but we're also stunting our own growth. Yeah. So take the warning and when you see the signs that you're starting to say yes and you're not questioning that yes, and you're actually not advocating for yourself, or even if it's you who is the CEO and you're not actually planning out breaks, planning out specific downtime, actually blocking your calendar and giving yourself, I just call it creative time. You know, some of us and I'm gonna speak to the websites, some of y'all need to get on your website for 20 minutes and just look at it for a second and say, wait a minute, not enough for work. Just just enjoy some stuff. Look at your own content. I know, it's like, what? Why do I need to get stuff done? Or you best believe it's good to look at your own content so you know what's coming out of you. You have so and so. I want to get to the point. If you're listening to Jamie and I speak and you think, man, that's me, that that's actually me, don't don't go another day, another week, especially as we're closing out this year on into a new year. And this is still the same you because insanity we know even psychologically is doing the same thing and expecting a different result. And the world is telling you, you know, entrepreneur magazine, hustle magazine is telling you, you know, you just keep going. It'll come and you look at Steve Jobs and Hermosa and these other people, you're like, I'm looking at them again. They compare themselves amongst themselves and they weren't wise. Is that what you were supposed to do? It may be a good thing. Is it a God thing, understanding that we live in a different economy, economy as kingdom entrepreneurs? Well what is a difference in your in your, you know, opinion between a worldly secular founder and a faithful founder? I think a faithful founder actually has the recourse of the Holy Spirit. A faithful founder actually has the conviction of the Holy Spirit. A worldly founder is, you know, subject to the world. And and I'm not one of those Christians is here and, and critical of worldly people. You know, we all watch movies. We're just playing a role. Yeah. You know, we all played our role. You know, I'm not one of those people who was born, saved. My mother was, I think, but I wasn't. So, you know, the world's going to do what the world does. But we have convictions. We have that when we there's a business opportunity or a contract negotiation, we also have that, hey, wait a minute, do you need to make that decision versus a worldly founder may not have that same they they don't have got in that year. And we do. It sounds like to me you think the focus is different right. Is that because it make for me like I did? Recently I did like just a personal study of, like what worship actually means, right. And worship is what I determined right through, you know, reading a bunch of television is a podcast, yada, yada, yada was worship is your highest point of focus? Is what you worship, right? Because you have, you know, like you have your job or your obviously if you're listen this show, you have your company, your family, you're you're you're starting to find your company or you're, you're considering it or you're currently in the midst of it, like, I am, right? And I Jamal, has been right. And, you have all these other things and priorities and, and and so a lot of times it's easy to forget what truly matters. Like, where are we actually here? Where's the actual purpose of this? Right. Like the mission of people founder is to remind people that your job as an entrepreneur is to glorify God with what you're building, to build up the kingdom of God upon the face of the earth with the talent that you've been given. And like you said earlier, to be qualified by God in order to do that right. Because it's I know I need the qualification every single day right now, going back to the worship, it's you can fall into. And we got to make this deal. We got to close this. We got to close this deal. I got to get this client right. I got to call the customer. I got to get with my website guy. Right. You know, for password or software? I software company. Right. I got a call. Know, I got to get with my developers or whatever it may be, you know, but it. Man, it's so easy to get lost and forget what your highest focus of what should be God. What is your advice to those like myself that happens every single day, multiple times a day. More often than probably doesn't. Of how do we maintain the focus on what matters? What is a relationship with the creator of the universe? Got it. Here's a phrase that I've, trademarked and coined. I said to some, says my clients that the problem is in the pattern, but the power is in the pause being intentional about taking those pauses, and they don't have to be in the morning. It's good to do it in the morning. But the industrial mindset is the 9 to 5, 15 minute let's break here. 15 a break, bad 30 minute break. You know, for us as founders, we can actually schedule in those times which just like I call a cabin time. And no, I may not be somewhere up in, you know, the Appalachian or in the mountains in an actual cabin. But it's time where I'm just focused on it's just Jesus in me. You know, every morning I do about 4.5 to 7 miles out in nature, making sure that I get my headspace right before I go into just what can be very cutthroat. You know, I work not just in the wellness industry, but I'm also a podcast with the top three rank globally podcast. So I'm, I'm I'm rubbing shoulders with people who don't believe what I believe. And so I've got to be ready. That's what I would say to that. To the founders being intentional about dining with our Savior as he prepares a table before us in the presence of our enemies. And a lot of times we think of an external enemy. A lot of times happens that enemy is ourself. Oh yeah, most people will be honest with you. So yeah. Much of my mother's, you know, much to my mother's, dismay. My dad let us play Mortal Kombat growing up. So it was, something called the mirror match. And so a lot of times of facing yourself is the hardest battle. And so when we take that time to be alone, revelation 320 itself says, I stand at the door, knock. If any man ask is not the perfect man, not the perfect entrepreneur, perfect founders, any man answers, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with me. And when we have that time, it actually grants us the discernment and wisdom and acumen needed to proceed forward and to walk in the spirit. We don't see what God sees, so we don't do what God does when we actually are intentional about that time stealing away, it says even Christ himself. No one, I don't think in three years did more than he did. Absolutely. But it says he went away and he withdrew, and I think it cleaned his lens. He was fully God and fully man so that he could be on mission. We have to be intentional about imitate our Savior. Absolutely. How do you. Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I mean, there's nothing I disagree with anything you said, I mean, nothing I disagree with anything. He said his entire podcast, which is pretty incredible cause I'm a disagreeable person by nature. So I'd say you're you're killing it in that way. I'm not sure that the my opinion matters, to be honest with you. So I was born of contrary myself. So I know that I know how it is. But, you know, the question I want to ask is, how do you not? Because I feel like a lot of people, I was like this for a long time before I really took my faith seriously. Right. Because there's a lot of people that are Christian, right? And and look, they go to the church and they do the things like I did for many, many years, but they didn't take it seriously. It wasn't where their identity was. It wasn't where their life was. Right in their light. It wasn't there. It was a part of them. It wasn't who they were. Right. And today I'm working every day to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. Every day I'm working to see the image of likeness of God that is in me. Right? And which is very difficult and more important than others, because, you know, I'm very quick to judge, unfortunately, is one of my, you know, one of the things I fall prey to. Now, with all that being said, you know, a lot of people, they say, well, I do the prayer. I did the knock. I asked Jesus to come and I'm leaving. I said, hey, come and visit me a lot. But, you know, I do this. I read my scriptures, I went to church, but nothing happened, right? How do we actually knock? Who? Consistency. Don't wait to feel it. I'm speaking to the founder, so I know I'm preaching to the choir. A lot of stuff that we've done and we built as much like the Air Force says, build the plane in the air, it'll hammer will. You know, as someone who is past again, the prime of having a brick house body, I'm not a gym rat by nature. I'm just. I'm not in my 20s anymore. I just I don't like going in there. So me going in there is a miracle because I know everything in my being does not feel it. But I know if I do that for about 3 to 4 straight weeks, then it becomes a part of my nature. So I would say with the very thing you're like, I'm not even feeling this. I'm not getting anything out of this. Be consistent till it becomes a second nature. One thing, another phrase that I've coined a trademark is the very thing you practice consistently. You will eventually perfect. And so practice it over and over again. Sometimes we practice hustling so much that we perfected that. And then you heard Jamie and I story. We we hit a wall. So for those who are nearing hitting the wall, you're like, I'm not hitting the wall, I'm crushing it. You are crushing it. But you're probably being crushed on the inside pores, the very thing it says. What is, Corinthians? I think somebody says, train yourself or Timothy and righteousness. We only act the way we act because we've trained our brains, even neurologically. That way the retraining is hard because you don't feel it. When I go back into the gym, I complain. The workouts that take 20 minutes usually take me an hour. When I first get back in there, because I'm not used to it. There's always going to be some external and internal resistance when you're really trying something new. And for some of us who call ourselves believers, it is new. Press through. You'll be happy. You'll not even be happy. Forget that your beautiful person, your private life, your public life, your business will thrive as a result. And I know for some people it actually takes accountability, you know? Yeah, I tell people three things. I even have a, curriculum of, you know, develop trigger awareness, you know, find a different escape route, understand how you think. Those are three things that I don't know if I have time to get into, but those are important. And actually developing the atomic habits that build sustainable success. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like what you're maybe not saying, but alluding to, is that once you find the peace, there's only found in Christ Jesus. That's when all these other things become possible. That's the truth. I don't disagree with that. What I'm telling the audience here is that it's not going to be easy. There's no silver bullet to this course. You know, there's there's work. If I want my eight pack back, oh, there's going to be some dietary changes. There going to be some physical changes. And the whole mentality change and over time through consistency. But I have to see the need to make that investment. Yeah. I want to mention something that, that I don't talk about often, but it's called region beta paradox. Paradox. It's like, what is that small? God put me to sleep. This in layman's terms on the region by a paradox, is that if it's not that bad, we'll just keep doing it. We wait till it gets worse until we make a change. Yeah. So so you think about the story. You shared, the story year earlier. It took me hitting a wall to actually get any help to actually make that investment. You don't want to be the one who hits a wall, and then your business crashes, and then you start losing revenue, and then you start losing relationships and communities, so on and so forth. Yeah, as a result and thing it does it. I'm just going to wait till it gets worse. Experience is the teacher of fools. We don't want to be foolish. Yeah. I no, I love all that I and I want to I just want to clarify my statement to. I. I find it easier. Not easy, not easier. Because it doesn't get easier. I find it more possible to do the harder things, but the necessary things when I have my peace with Christ. Right. You know what I'm saying? Because you're talking about like, yeah, it's hard to get in the gym. It's hard too. And the original question was, how do we knock? How do we build that relations with them? Because it's not that I was just talking to somebody. I'm like, if you're looking for the easy path, do not pick Christianity, right? But if you're looking for the path of peace, that what Christ says in John 16 verse 33, it's my favorite scriptures in the world you have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world. If you're looking for the peace and only Christ can offer other happiness. So like you said, you corrected yourself. You're like, I'm not talking about happiness. What you're talking about is peace. What you're talking about is the joy that is only found in the relation ship with God and His Son and His spirit, right. And then the hard things, it'll become easier, but you become more able to bear them because you've yoked yourself with the one that has taken on all sin, pain, pain, and tribulation of the world and is overcoming. Oh no, no, you spot on me. Okay, and to answer your question, just put put plainly because this is a faithful founder podcast, Isaiah tells us, seeking why he may be found, call upon and why he is neither. Let the wicked forsake his way. Let the unrighteous his thoughts. Let him turn to the Lord. Let him repent, and he will abundantly pardon. Go to Hebrews 11 six. Everyone who comes to him must believe he is, and he is a rewarder to those who earnestly seek you. So even art as earnestly the key word there. Nick, you kept talking about consistency. Keep talking about that, Jim. Sometimes we we get to I'm not saying have to because have to will connote negativity and people will reveal in terms of lashing out when it's on like that. Right. Yeah. We we got so we. Yeah we get to see him and it doesn't feel good at first you know. But the more we do seek him he gives us what Jesus and Jesus. When Jesus possesses us, he gives us that peace that it helps us to remove ourself from that hustle mindset that says, I gotta just go, go, go. I got to produce, produce, produce. When I'm around other founders, I gotta kind of put on airs of, yeah, we got more going on than we actually do, you know, or I gotta make sure that we're grinding. I'm wearing my silverware and everybody else so we can present a united front, you know, instead of let me actually rest and let God give the increase. Because I think we both found, you know, as an astronaut, we draw the contracts and then we have seasons where it's like God, where yet. You know. He's the one that makes it rain. It's a yeah. I think it's so interesting because it is a paradox of we and I mean, maybe not inherently because these people like they go like we we can use a gym as an example. I, you know, I've always loved going to gym. I've always loved like being in shape and working out. It's always been a release for me. Right? It's it's a it's a hobby for me. But there are days I do not feel like going. There's no doubt about that. Like, mostly these days I get a lot less sleep than I would like to. Right. And, it been a you said I actually tell myself when I go to the gym, the days that it will feel like being there, I tell myself, I get to be here, I get to exercise, I get to do this right. But going back to what I was trying to say, a lot of people, they go in the gym and they think, okay, you know, I should see results after a month and maybe you will, you know, maybe you just have a maybe respond. You will see that. But most times it's three, six, nine, 12 month before you really start to see the fruit of exercising, eating well, being healthy. It's the same thing with any skill, like very few skills. I don't know of any. All the top of my head can be developed very quickly. Most skills come after trial, tribulation, the struggle and the earnest seeking and saying I'm willing to fail over and over again to become better at this, right? Why would it be any different with the knocking? Why would it be any different with the relationship with Christ Network, as they really stuck out to me because it's like I've read that scripture, but in our conversation, obviously it's the that's what the faithful founder needs to remember is that you're number one. You're yoked with him in this endeavor, right? If you do it correctly. Right. And that you must be earnest in your covenant with him of I'm doing this with you, right? I'm not doing this for me. I'm doing this because I feel like I'm called to do it right. And do I enjoy being a founder? Absolutely. Look, man, I do not make nearly as much money as I used to. Am I a lot happier? Absolutely right. But at the end of the day, do I want to make more money? Do I want to be more successful? Yes. But I also know at the end of the day, that is not the main purpose. That is not the goal. The goal is to glorify God. And I believe that the byproduct, whether I make money or not, will be that I will come out of that, out of the end of it, a better disciple of Jesus Christ. That's what it is. But I must earnestly do those things daily. Schedule those times. Be intentional. That is what you've said this entire time. That's what I'm hearing. Tell me if I'm wrong or if there's anything I need to add to that. Thank you. Just cook with I grease report. I'll try to keep up with you, man. But the, I don't know if I can add to that, but, I would say for a male friend especially, you guys have wives and females, obviously. You guys that have birthed children, especially as a founder, it is you're literally carrying something and birthing something. We've heard the word this is my baby. Yeah. And so if we think about it and we actually break that down to realistic terms, I remember when the youngest one, the sibling right over me when Jasmine was pregnant with, one of my nieces and, you know, her ankles were a little bit bigger because she's a skinny girl growing up, you know, her skin started to glow. Her her nose got a little bit broader. Her hair was to the middle of her back because she was taking these prenatal pills. And, you know, we went to the amusement park seat. She didn't exactly get on any rides. She just kind of kind of chill in the water park because she was carrying someone within her. She ate differently. She drank differently. Everything was different because she was stewarding someone within her. She was cooking someone for nine months. And so I want to say to that founders, remember that you are not your own. Your business is not your own. If you indeed are a faithful founder, that actually is a post that God is giving you to man. Absolutely. And so when you carry something that's not your own, you walk very carefully. You don't do the same things, you don't drink the same things. And I'm not speaking of that, but I know some of us like our libations, whatever that is. But you just you, you act differently. And even after the baby is born, you know, she holds the head differently. She she nurses, she has different sleep tonight. She's waking up at different times where we're called to live different because God has entrusted something to us. And when God has entrusted something to us, you know, when we're speaking about burnout, mental health and stress, you know, and we realize that God has given us this thing to birth, he's going to give us what we need, you know, to raise this thing up, to raise this child, or to raise this baby so that this business grows. But God can and has the impact that he intended. Yeah, I love all that. And I've loved our conversation thus far. I've seen with my wife when she had our two children, obviously, like the instinct to do the thing that you were talking about, but even the instinct could be overridden with the choice to do the opposite. You still had to. She's got to choose to, like you said, care for the being that was inside her. Like my wife did the same thing, right? It's the same thing with entrepreneur. Like you have this instant when you found the business. Like, I don't want this to fail. I need to grow. I need to succeed. All these things. Right. You said we've talked about a lot. On of the early episodes, earlier episodes I recorded, I talked about how a faithful founder, one of the key trends of being a faithful founder, as you think, was the first episode I had the solo boss that I did was being a good steward. Stewardship is one of the core Christian tenants steward of what has been given to you. Because it is not yours, it's on loan to you, right to multiply with your talents. Or I speak about the the parable. Right. And how do you consciously choose? Right. Like because the instinct not always is going to be enough to get you through. The motivation fades. Right? You have to choose consciously to be a steward of what's been given you. Right? I don't know, try to answer this intelligently in a way that makes sense. But there is a proverb. This is the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. And when a mom who really wants to be a mom wants to raise a healthy child, she's doing things differently and making good choices because she realizes that if she doesn't, what happens? She may have a miscarriage. And how many of how many faithful founders our founders have miscarried the vision, have miscarried their businesses? You know? Absolutely. Or an abortion, you know, let's let's go there and use that forbidden word. You know how many have had it? Well, I'm just throwing the whole thing away. Forget it. You know, because I didn't make the choices. And so we that that wisdom. And that's when we've been given something. God has handed us something. We realize I'm stupid. Unless I have the capacity in the agency to make choices that line up with the vision of call, to understand that you cannot do it alone. You know, I do executive coaching as well as counsel. And so sometimes we need accountability. You know, especially as men we like say, I got this just like you do. Really? Yeah. You know, honor goes before humility. When we humble ourself, we can grab the grace we need to actually implement the principles, because it's hard to do it on your own, even in the gym, man. You know, it's like sometimes when you're bench and it's like your spotter is not exactly. Oh. Is it? Just think that about the man. Yeah. Their presence there says, you know what? I could I could push this thing up. And sometimes you need a spotter. Yeah. And especially in certain seasons when in the early seasons and even in the later seasons when the business begins to scale and you're tempted, you know, two, one and two stress and two burnout to hit the wall because we got to get this contract. And boy, this is a huge sponsorship and it may not be a God thing. That extra accountability and that advice and that those extra set of eyes very valuable. Yeah. I yeah, I love that. It's so funny you said I because literally I was on top of the gym the other day. I would do my max and I was feeling it. I was, you know, I, I did a couple reps. I'm like, okay, I go to the gym by myself because I just like to be alone and just get in there, get it done. And it's my alone time. Right. And, but I'm like, I got here. Yeah, I my buddies, I see the gym all the time and I call my buddies over. I'm like, hey, man, I see the spot. And I'm like, it's I'm probably not going to be able to get this many times. I think I was going for three, you know, and I went and I hit four. And he never touched the bar. And it's and it was literally that psychology of like it felt lighter because you were there. You know what I'm saying. And and it was pretty amazing. And that goes that, that, principle of what you're talking about is it's the accountability. I highly encourage you. I have two co-founders. So the accountability kind of naturally comes with them. But even if I didn't, you know, even if, you know, if you don't have co-founders and working with somebody like Jamal or whoever to keep you accountable, to go back to the yoke, even Christ keeps us accountable. He makes that burden light. Right. And I found most times through my prayers have been answered by other people, most times by God used people in our lives to answer that. And I think, what you're talking about is, is, you know, like you said, the Lord will not set out you on a path like you did with Moses to go for the Israelites to lead his people out of the, out of Egypt without the. It wasn't easy for Moses. God came to him and said, you will lead my people out of Egypt, the mightiest empire the world had ever seen up to that point. You're going to go to them and just tell the guy that runs the whole thing, you're going to let the people that are are a huge part of your economic system, in your labor system, go for nothing. Right? And so Moses, right, I'm going to go. He goes and nothing happens. And the challenges come. And then the plagues have to come. And all this and it was it. Moses went through such hardship and pain. Tell them that he was called by God to do. Why would it be any different with us? Yet he was supplied what he needed to accomplish the mission to what your point was earlier. So, I'm not sure if you have any thoughts on that. We'll start to wrap up, but. Now, I mean, sometimes if you add to something and pontificate too much, it gets lost. Man, I want the audience to just really sit with that, you know, let it sink in. I call it letting the information flow drip like an IV so it has the power to transform. Well, I, I learned a ton from you, man. We might have to talk about your executive, you know, accountability program sometime. But you were awesome. I really enjoyed speaking with you. I know our audience is going to get a lot of value out of you. Where can people find you? Where can they support you or work with you? Got it. So, easiest place to find me. I'm very, very active on LinkedIn. That's where I, you know, began to build a brand. I'm the only Jamal that's built my name this way on LinkedIn. So you type in into H. I will come up through media. I would I look for you I literally popped up super fast. So. Yeah. Yeah. You're not wrong. And LinkedIn has the worst search that know of all platforms. True. That's very true. So that's the easiest way to find me. I'm super active there. I'm there daily. Maybe not as much on weekends, but I'm there daily. Obviously my website is listen and then speak. But one thing I wanted to offer your audience, something we talked about earlier, is just to continue this conversation. I've been working on the with 16 years experience, I packaged up everything and a lot of stuff we're talking about and more so into a product, you know, that they can go through at their own pace. It's a burnout mini course. Because one thing I want people to do is be able to save the time that I lost. Now it is super clinical, but it's also very easy to understand. And it's not death by modules. I actually give you a workbook full of cheat code, cheat codes that actually address the root causes that is tailored to you. And also, once you get to the end, you have a debrief with me and a discovery call. Just so I can get to know you a little better and actually talk about some of those things that you went through during the course. And man, I love offering this course in the corporate spaces. Also in entrepreneurial space. So for anybody who wants that, who's listening to this because I know this is evergreen, you need to know this will be played back if you hit the words TF. So the faithful founder pod, it'll knock it down to 97 and retails at 1500. I don't a price in money to be an issue. I want anybody to. This will be evergreen for I will long out onto the price to listen to this, especially for kingdom entrepreneurs to be able to grab it. So all that'll be in the show notes. And those are the access points that you can find me at if you want to continue the journey with me, definitely. If you want to just grab that and claim it for yourself. I've had clients get amazing results, from that and so I want to see you get the same wins, especially if your story is anything like Jamie's in minds. We want you to say at the time that we lost. Let's go, I love that. Thank you for doing that for everybody. To listeners, thank you for tuning in. This is PayPal founder. As always, if you don't know Jesus, no one. Take care.