Faithful Founder

Surrender, Serve, Succeed: Leading a Business with Faith – with Chris Baden

• Jamie Cain

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How Can Founders Trust God's Plan in the Uncertainty of Entrepreneurship?

In this powerful episode of The Faithful Founder Podcast, Jamie Cain sits down with Chris Baden, co-founder and CEO of FlowChat, to discuss the faith, resilience, and surrender it takes to build a business that glorifies God.

Chris shares how his journey as a founder has been shaped by faith, from receiving a vision for his company to learning the importance of stewardship, surrender, and trusting God's provision. He and Jamie dive into the struggles of imposter syndrome, the challenge of balancing worldly success with spiritual purpose, and how Christian entrepreneurs can overcome fear and self-doubt by anchoring their identity in Christ.

If you’re a founder battling uncertainty, wrestling with the pressure to succeed, or seeking encouragement in your faith-driven business journey, this episode is for you.

New episodes release monthly. Subscribe now and join the growing community of faithful founders transforming the world for God’s glory!

Connect with Chris Baden

🔗 FlowChat Website: https://www.flowchat.com/
📱 Instagram: @thechrisbaden
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thechrisbaden/

Thank you for tuning in to The Faithful Founder Podcast! If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other faith-driven leaders.

Stay connected with Jamie Cain and explore more content:

Join us monthly for new episodes and keep leading your business with faith and purpose!

It's so funny. Like. So today I was having this conversation with my wife and I literally said, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, like, I mean, like, look, I haven't known what I'm doing the whole time. I had a vision. My background is in SAS sales. That's where I came from. Right? That's it was sales. Sales in general. But later my career in SAS, that's where I had the idea for the company. Right. But like, I just had the idea is I'm gonna figure it out and that's what I did. You know what I'm saying? With lots of prayer, lots of father like, you know better than I do. Just man, I get emotional talking about it. I'm sorry. But, like, it's just, you know, man, it just takes a lot. Faithfulness is at the core of me being a founder. Of good business values and ethics. Comes from the Bible. Lead with the relationship with Christ. Lead with your knowledge of the gospel to guide you when I pray, what is going on everybody? Welcome to the Faithful Founder Podcast. I am stoked today to be joined by Chris from Flow Chat. Chris how you doing sir? Doing awesome man. Excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely. Really really pumped to have you man. Number one flow is awesome. We recently joined on the flow chat for our company and found out, you know, pretty early on that you were a Christian. Found yourself. So this obviously made a ton of sense to sit down and speak with you. If you would mind real fast. Just give an introduction. Everybody who may not know you and what you're about to the, faithful founder audience. Yeah. Absolutely. My name is Chris Baden. I am currently the co-founder and CEO of Flow chat.com. It is a, software company. It's a sales tool that helps you to sell more of your stuff, as a simple way of saying it. And, you know, I've been called a lot of things, in my life. Jamie, but being called dad is my favorite. And so I'm a husband of 11 years, so we've actually been together 17 years, now, and have three kids, eight, seven and four, two boys and a girl. And, there's never a dull moment over here. So many. Most people that are coming into my world, you know, I'm I'm thinking of one about one of three things at any given moment. One is a life building a lifelong marriage, a world and packing family, a nine figure tech company. So, that's a little bit of my headspace and a little bit about me. Yeah. What's one thing that you said before we started recording that I want you to kind of touch on again, is that God is is first on your list, but it's also, like you said, second, third, 107 because God is not a category. He is. And I love that, because that's when Moses asked the Lord, who shall I say sent me to the Israelites? God's reply was that I am, that I am, that I exist, and I am all that is, and all that ever will be and all that ever has been right. That is God. And you've let that teaching sink into everything that you're doing. It sounds like. Yeah, it's just, you know, this will, we're going to have a fun conversation. There's going to be content that comes out of me in this conversation that that hasn't, and I'm, I'm, I wouldn't label myself as an evangelist, at this point, per my actions and everything, but if anyone ever asks, I'll, I can't deny, like, the the love and the goodness that I've been exposed to, and the work that Holy Spirit's done in my life, and it's just it's just too blatant. And and I'll spend the rest of my life just trying to understand and share what he is first given me. Yeah. In terms of all things, he's ABBA, Father Jehovah Jireh, a perfect protector and provider physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally, financially. Like we can we can hit every aspect of life. And I could be like, check out the work that has been done in my life now. There's definitely, I wouldn't call it like a dramatic before and after. You know, fortunately, I feel like I've been blessed with, you know, great parents and, and, you know, quality upbringing. You know, we're we're not perfect by any means. We got all kinds of quirks. But, you know, it's not like this I die. I mean, when I was flatlining, then I knew. And, you know, it's not like, super intense like that. But, you know, all that being said, man, like, through the process, like what you're describing wasn't God number one. I was like, well, of course he's number one. He's priority. But he's also the number three and number seven, number 117. So like, I kind of need him and like all aspects. Of. Life, the way that I look at it is like, you know, I spend my time with him every single morning and, and you know, in the there's four things I'll read, I'll write all, you know, pray and then, and then, you know, speak out loud. And so it's kind of that thinking and meditating or praying and then and then also speaking out loud. It's those four things as, oh, you know, it's like, so discipline or you're so religious or so righteous, it's like, do screw you like it's survival, man. Like like every everywhere I go I don't have enough love. I don't have enough energy. I'm just a dude. You know. Like to pour into my marriage, to pour into my kids, to pour into my partner ships, to pour into companies, supported team members, vendors, affiliates, the, customers, all the communities that I've been placed in. Dude, I'm going to burn out before I even get to 9 a.m.. And so, in the day. But he is good. And and, like, he's the vine. And so being plugged into a different source of of love, principle, precept, power that goes way beyond me, like, I think, I don't know. And so I'm one of my socials. It says to accomplish something greater than yourself, it takes more than yourself. Like that applies pragmatically, but also and obviously in faith, like I'm a part of a much bigger work is even so, Jet.com. We're talking about like, I'm standing in my home office and on this wonderful tile floor, behind me, Jamie, you know, I'm laying in a puddle of my own tears. But almost four years ago, and there's two times in my life where I've been just completely weeping, like, not crying, like weeping, bawling. And I wasn't sad. It was just. I was overwhelmed with love and emotion. God gave me, like, a download or a vision or whatever you want to call it, and I didn't. He's not like, oh, you will build slow. Jack's like, I didn't get a name, but I saw, I saw what he wanted to be built and it was heavy and emotional. Happened in the flash. It was mid day. I remember very clearly. And then I, I walk out of my office door and I was like, babe, you got to hear this. Like, check this out. It took me almost four hours to process it. I was like this, like all the detail. It was like wham! Like seconds. But it took me hours to just even like, I've got this four foot by eight foot whiteboard on a wall over here, and I'm just like, just, you know, I'm like, the Beautiful Mind or whatever, like, okay. And then isn't it? It's a great it was a great movie. It was, it's like, you know, that situation and, and it's taken me years to, to execute it, and, and the work's not done, but it's like the point is, it's his. He gave it to me. And I know that my role is to steward it. So, yeah, I'm, you know, I have a certain title for this project, but it's still not mine. It's my, my steward. So when I, you know, had these different, you know, seasons of, of life, ups and downs and, you know, the moments where the business shuts down. And I haven't paid myself for a year and I'm, you know, multiple five figures in debt three months before my first son's born, and I got to go home to my six month pregnant wife and be like, I don't like, I don't know, I suck. It sucks. And, and and it was like it wasn't even something like a bad decision I made or something. I screwed up, like I actually was. Our company was doing this is like 15 years ago, but, a long time ago, but we we were doing well, but it was time to change directions. And, like, I was so angry at God at that time. But, you know, there's time for a season shift. And so it's it's just I'm a founder. The first thing I did was to go get a job. I started the next guy. I sold all the furniture in my office, came up with another six, seven grand. I started the next business. Like, I wasn't thinking. I was just trying to survive how I've navigated the world is founding companies. It's creating. My creator created me to create. So yeah, these are think couple things coming to mind. Came to that man. I loved all that. You know, it's funny because you might have his answer to prayer. I just had literally 15 minutes before I, you know, we started recording. I, so one of the core values of our company help ghost and subsequently one of the core values of my life in this podcast is radical transparency. I didn't make this podcast faithful founder to present, to present a facade to the world. I made it to talk about the struggles that I'm having as a founder, and hoping that it resonates with others, and talking about with other faithful founders and being just radically transparent with each other. So all that to preface that literally in my car, like right before I came up here, I said a prayer and I and because I feel overwhelmed, I'm in the middle of starting my own company, help ghost. And And it's stressful, dude, you know what I'm saying? And it's just like, part it's hard, you know, because I have, like, I categorize myself as a as a serial side hustler for so long because I didn't have the faith in myself that I could do something like this, you know what I'm saying? And then what I realized was, I don't need to have faith in myself. I don't have faith in the Lord. Right. And the help ghost idea came to me very clearly. Not the way you're talking about, not that experience, but it was just a clear idea. And I brought it to my wife and she was like that. I think that's in my way. I bring all my ideas to my wife because I have a million of them. That's just one of the things. I have so many ideas that I look back or like, that was really dumb. I'm glad I didn't act on that, you know? But so anyways, you know, and I have felt and I've been very clear on this, I have felt called to build what we're building. But what you just said, I came up here, I said a prayer, you know, they asked me how I was doing. Our producer nation asked me, I was doing I told them, I don't, I'm a I'm very real with nation, you know, and I'm like, I'm struggling, dude. I have the anxiety. I'm feeling really just not good enough right now, you know what I'm saying? And, were you talking about that experience and being called and being shown and, and that it that it isn't yours, that it's that it's here, that you've been given it and to be a steward, that's something we've talked about on the show a lot is the stewardship. That's it. That's one of the core principles I believe in. Being a faithful founder is believing in the principle of stewardship and and taking that very, very seriously because like you alluded to, nothing truly belongs to us. It's all been given us to steward. Not even our lives are our own. We know that the breath we breathe right was given to us by the universe. Exactly. And in the lives we live now. And the salvation that we can claim is only possible through the blood of the lamb. We are literally owners of nothing, but yet have been given everything, including the Kingdom of God, if we so choose it. Right? Yeah. I mean, I just I don't even have a question. I want to say thank you because like, what you said really just resonated because I, I need to hear that, man. Like, as you know, the doubts creep in a lot. It sounds like you got a lot of doubts and you've been able to. I'm not sure if you want to say anything about that, but, you know. Oh my gosh, man. And there's plenty of moments where I've looked myself in the mirror and I, you know, I say, or I think I'm like, there's no way I make it through this. There's no way. And, you know, but God, like, there's a grace that is greater than me, that is accomplishing something greater than me. And I'm a part of the process. And, and, and I think there is a season where. You know, I like I don't want to pretend like I just sit at home all day, and I. And I just pray, and then God just opens doors and revenue comes in, and, like. That's how God works, you know. Work as if it depends on you and pray as if it depends on God. And, yeah, there's been plenty of moments where I'm just like, I don't, I don't even friggin know. And I just like, okay, well, who do I know? Okay, I'm going to reach out to that party. Like, I just keep going. I just reach out, I talk, I like, I, I, you know, what pain are you going through? Okay, here's here's one. Oh, I can connect to you. How do I serve people? It always comes back to service. Yeah. So what is, you know, the three kind of steps that have really helped me is listening, practicing empathy and creatively solving problems. Those three in, in, in that order like, in my first commission, I've been commission only basically my whole working life and, and still am to this day, just for a lot more people. And, and that's the truth. And so when I started out, my first commission, when I sales job using credit card processing, so working for a fortune 900 company and, I, I'm 20 nothing. And I know nothing about business. I've never done sales before. I don't know anything about basis points and all the networks in the sense that. Okay, so I'm just like, felt like I was going to throw up every single day. I'm watching people get fired left and right. Is a very high pressure environment. And I hated it. And I wanted to leave just as bad or more than anyone else around me. But I also hate losing. And so I was like, okay, I'm definitely leaving, but I'm leaving on my own terms. And so it took me just over three years to like, you know, build a portfolio, get vested and, and, you know, feel like I at least conquered. So we rewind to the second month in and I'm saying this because of the hardships. I'm saying this because the moments that suck, you know, but this was the foundation. And here's what shifted my whole career path from the very beginning. It was in the second month. I'm working 70 plus hours a week, maybe 80 plus, I don't know, just sign ups on down. And, that whole I'm doing this over and over and over again for the whole month. Guess how much I made? I have no idea. I don't only want to guess, man. 800. Bucks. Yeah. For the entire month. So I'm closing. Nothing. Yeah. You know. Hey, hey, you know, girlfriend and wife, like, hey, do you want to, like, get married and move in with my parents? Like, I'm not closing that deal either. Like, just not sorry. Like, half for me. And I don't even know how to make money. And so, you know, creating a value in the world. But what I learned was this, I was like, it's not fair. I'm outworking everybody. But the epiphany moment was, I don't get paid to work. I get paid to create results. I was like, oh, okay, well, how do I get results? Why did I get other people results? Well, how do I get other people results? You know, as I would, you know, learn over the next few years is like, well, I got to get a lot better at listening. Like, I'm not going to have some magical idea in my head that solves everything. And even if I have the magical idea, if I don't go into the market and ask them what their pain is and what's on their mind, they're never going to tell me and I'm never going to be able to solve their problems. Okay, so it starts with listening. And to be a great listener, you need to ask great questions. And so I did that. And then, you know, instead of getting all the data and the pain and like, okay, I can solve your problem, I'm going to tell you, no, no, no. Practice empathy first just for two seconds. Think about their world, their relationships, their the struggles they're going through. Just feel what they feel and you'll start to understand what decision they actually want to make. It saves you a ton of time doing this, by the way. And then what you have that they'll never have from a sales marketing perspective is fresh eyes. They can never see their company for the first time ever again. And so you're going to have different thoughts and creative solutions that you can bring to the table that they have not thought of or heard from your perspective yet. That's valuable. So when I started approaching people this way and having those type of conversations, things started to change. I very quickly became the youngest. And, you know, one of the highest performing, you know, reps in, in the company and then had a team and got vested and then, you know, sold a portion of that portfolio to start rolling into my own companies and build my companies, you know, so fast forward, you know, multiple companies later in one software exit. And now working on my second software project, you know, it's founder by blood, not by title. It's how I've navigated the world. And to be fair, if I knew what was going to be required, I probably wouldn't have done it. This, this this stuff's hard, man. It's not for the faint of heart. Yeah, but. I, you know, I'd be praying that God, what do you have for me? You know, like, what direction am I supposed to go? It's all those questions. All those questions. And he's like, dude, I called you to the marketplace. So I. You've been there for like, a decade, dude. Like what? What's how dense are you? I was like, well, I'm pretty dense and. You. Know exactly how dense. Okay. So, I know you know that answer. Yeah. So lots of those moments. And I would just encourage, you know, everyone like, I, I've been really kind of rallying on this phrase. It has been hit me hard with this lately is if you knew who God created you to be, you wouldn't want to be anybody else. And so it's easy to hide behind. Sometimes a job it's easy sometimes to hide behind a company. It's easy sometimes, to hide behind. And all that identity that your friends, your family gave you. You know, sometimes it's easy and, yeah, there's, like, business free will. You can keep living in that life. But if you want to lean in and you want to know the how God sees you and how you actually were beautifully and wonderfully made, what you'll find is when you meet that person, you won't want to be anyone else. There's no one that has the calling that you do. There's no one. That has been equipped to do what you've been equipped to do. Only you can walk through that threshold, and there's joy and there's peace and there's craziness in that. But there's just, you know, it's powerful. It's beautiful. Here's a really cool thing. Someone told me once upon a year, the statue of David. The analogy. Yeah, right. Oh, no. The analogy. No. Sorry. Well, the analogy is like this big. It's this big block of, like, raw material. Marble. Granite. Like some type of meteorite. It's like this big cube. And the artist that was basically chiseling, chiseling out like a David in there. They were talking to the artist, and I can't remember exactly where I've heard. I've heard a couple from a couple different places, but but what's awesome and right on point with what we're talking about right now is when they asked the artist, it's so intricate and it's so wonderful. How on earth can you just chisel the sculpture of David? And his response was, it's simple. I just take away everything that's not David. So there's things that we carry ideas, you know, trauma, past things that we're carrying that we were not meant to carry. Even King David himself, you know, Solomon tried to put on his armor on him to go fight Goliath. He says, this is not my armor. And he takes it off and he grabs his sling, you know, goes, does this thing right. It's just like we're carrying these false identities, these these, paths. And I, that we weren't intended for, right? It's like a random example. It's like you're an iron and you iron clothes and you're like, you know, but I really feel like I need to be a lifeguard. It's like. It's not like it's not going to work out well for you. You're not made for water, right? Right. And, so it's like we're designed for a certain purpose and it's, you know, it's it takes a lot of courage to say yes to that on a daily basis or. Yeah. It's it's yeah, it's it's funny because just not not just the other day, but my prayers are the last. I don't know, I'd say like month or so I've been talking about, you know, help me to know who I am, you know, because knowing who you are isn't easy. Like you would think. Yeah, I am me. Therefore I should know who I am. But I don't at all I know. And in the more and more I talk to people I have, I don't think I've met very many people that know truly who they are, and they're in a part of that is their potential, but it's also part of it, of who they are as a being created by the ultimate being. Like who? Like, who am I? Like, what am I made for? What am I supposed to be doing? And it's too many times. I know for me, my identities got really wrapped up in everything that shouldn't be wrapped up in like. Like you said, we hide behind our jobs or even being a founder, right? Like we've talked about, like, yeah, your identity should not be like you said. It's in your blood. You know what I'm saying? You. I'm just saying in general, like, really like that's what you do. You are a founder, right? But who you are should not just be. Oh, I'm a founder, right? Like that. That really to me, you know, it, it puts a cap on our on who we are, you know, and our potential as being a created son or daughter of the living God. Right. And all that we are, you know, and all that we can be like we don't even have. There is an old, it's old now, I guess. It's one of my favorite movies of all time. I drew, if you remember, Prince of Egypt, you are president of Egypt. The Dreamworks. Dude, love that I my my kids and I watch it all the time. And there's a song in there, it says, look at your life through heaven's eyes. That's the song when Moses is with Jethro and his daughter and their tribe, you know, and and, I've gotten choked up more than once listening to that song while I watch the movie with my kids, because that's a difficult thing to do is look at your life through heaven's eyes, you know, and it seems to me, going back to my prayer like that has been my prayer at the end of the day is like, let me see me. How you see me. Let me reveal yourself to me so I can know myself better and have the relationship with you that I'm craving. Because that's what I realize is that, man, I want a lot of different things. I want help girls to be successful. We have our goals with that. I want to be, the best husband I can be. I have two children. I want to be the best father example that I can be. One of the reasons for me starting the company was that I wanted my kids to see their dad chase his dreams, so they were never scared to chase. Chase theirs, because for a long time, I didn't chase my dream because I wanted to play it safe. And I learned that lesson right through a story. Exterior factors, you know, external factors. Excuse me. But anyways, going back to, like, men looking in through heaven's eyes, like, understanding. It seems like to me. I know you may not have a perfect idea, because I don't think that's, you know, probably not possible in this lifetime. But it seems to me that you, in your relationship with Christ and God, you know, you you've figured some of that out, that you feel confident in some of that. Here's things that I know. Like he's the lamp beneath my feet. I don't you know, I have some I do see some, you know, like I have some vision at the same time. The only thing I really know is the next step I'm supposed to take. And the question is, am I taking that? And there's one particular step I've been doing my absolute best to avoid. That happens. And yeah, it's just like, dude, it's like it's just kind of, you know, I don't know, it's, scary sometimes. And it's like, like, this feels really uncomfortable. Are you sure? Pretty much feels like I'm. This is a terrible idea. But, you know, I, But it's all surrendered, and, you know, I'm. I'm not going to stay where I'm at. It's it's a it's. I don't want to live that life. It's a selfish choice. I like, I, you know, I'm always evolving and and, learning to trust him. So he's the lamp beneath my feet. He'll always give us the next step. What's his will for my life we don't like. It's not complicated to know him and to make him known. There you go. Make disciples. That's still okay. So now you check that box. What industry are you in? What skills and gifts do you have? Who's you put around? You get to work like. And so that's all the how and asking and listening and you know, discernment of, of doing it. The people that are in my life or in my life for a reason and, you know, you can open doors that no man can close and he can closed doors that no man can open. And, you know, it's it's trusting in that, that process. As well, there's one other thing that came to mind, like verse, it was coming to mind in terms of, you know, quote, figuring it out. I mean, I always like Matthew 633 seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all the things will be added to you like, success is is being closer to him. It's not like the KPI or, you know, I have revenue targets for, for food chat. There's a certain assignment and, you know, it's growing and it'll continue to grow, you know, until further notice, like. Yeah, that's what he's. You know, he's shown me to steward it, but, you know, it's still like I hear and I'm saying yes, and I'm showing up every day, but it's still open handed. You know, where he he had still has to take where he wants to take it. So, Yeah, man. Like, success isn't, wrapped up in. Yes, I'm a founder. Yes, I'm a dad. Yes, I'm a husband. And my brother. I'm a son. I'm all these all these titles. But, you know, before all that, like, I'm a, you know, a follower of Christ, a servant, a slave to righteousness, a, you know, hopefully a living sacrifice, just worshiping and glorifying the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. I love all of that, man. I, yeah. How do you. Because from a from a secular standpoint, you you could say you're a success. Like, you've had success much, you've had an exit, all those sorts of things. Right. Like but yeah. And you've talked about what success really is, is knowing the kingdom, you know, knowing the Lord. You know, our Lord God and knowing the kingdom of God and being a part of that, building that up right. Like that is what true success is. How do you and how have you, I guess, balanced the desire for like worldly success or like secular success, right, with the desire of knowing God first? Because that's one of the things that I've struggled with. And, and, and I'm starting to figure this out. But the wrestle of yes, I do want to be successful. Like I want to provide for my family. I want to make a good amount of money. I want financial freedom. Not like it's not the money for me. Like I don't care about the dollar amount, my bank account, what I care about is the flexibility and the options that money gives you to be able to supply a life and do things and have experiences and help people and those sorts of things, and give my kids a life that I never had growing up. Give my wife the life that I want her have that she certainly didn't have when she was a kid, you know? So there are those like, quote unquote worldly desires, but I don't think they're based in worldly desires, like worldly wants, like, I, I don't really care about the car I drive, you know what I'm saying? Like, we want to buy we want to buy a farm, actually is our goal. But it doesn't need to be like ten bedrooms. I don't really care about that. Right. But I have wrestled with this like it's really hard to explain. I don't know if you if you if you see kind of what I'm saying this like, but I also read the scripture of the rich man and giving up your possessions and you know what I'm saying? Like, you know what I'm saying? The eye of the needle on those sorts of things. Right. And I've talked to some spiritual, you know, guides in my life, people that are very close to God and to Christ. And the answers I've gotten really helped me, but I just kind of wanted to see what you had to say. Because you're living. You are where we're. I hope to be in full transparency. Like we want to have an exit, right? That's our goal, right? We want to build a company. Right? We I want my co-founders to walk away rewarded for their hard work. Right. But also at the end of the day, feeling that, man, our journey not only provided a life that we wanted, but I got closer to God while doing it, and that's what mattered more, you know? So I don't know if any of that makes sense. I'm not ask very good questions right now, but my mind's kind of all over the place. So what I hear you saying is, Chris, how do you juggle your relationship with money? How do we how do we like, be in the world a little bit out of it? How do we like, listen like we're in this game of business? Money is a part of every day thing, right? You have to produce revenue. Like I mean, that's just a fact, right? So yeah. So it's like, how do we, you know, how do you wrestle that? I think the first thing is, is not intention but it's heart. What is like your heart posture. What is your what is your setup with all that you know, what I hear you saying is, well, my heart isn't. I don't desire materials like the car I drive, I or the you know, you're not struggling with those things, but but you know, it's like but that kind of comes with it and, and, you know, and I definitely have some thoughts that I'm going to share here and, I'll, you know, probably upset a few people. In this part and. And I'll, I will say that like, I'm on my journey figuring it out, too. I, you know, come from. Oh, man. This this is just funny timing to have this conversation. So, look, I drive a Toyota Camry. I also have the man van, Toyota Sienna and Toyota family. We. We can definitely drive different cars, but I also have clothes that I've had, like, I don't know, I think I have, like, three sweatshirts and all of them were given to me. I like I don't like material stuff is just so not interesting to me. However, you know, you're a rich man. We'll go through the, you know, eye of a needle and it's like, okay, let's say you have five supercars, a big house and did it. Are you are you a rich man? According to who? Standard. Because if you took all of your riches in your wealth at that season or stage of your life, do you realize you couldn't even afford, like ten square feet of any road in the kingdom of heaven? You're still filthy rags. And that's good news. I don't think we can fathom and understand the power and the glory of God. There's nothing we will do or accomplish or acquire that even comes remotely close to just even an ounce or a glimpse of him. And so it's a hard thing. It's an honor thing. And and something that I've been wrestling with as a founder. And this thing is like, okay, you provide for your family, do these things. And is it bad to want no, it's not bad. But you know what? If you're thinking like that's that's your goal and that's where you're going to get, well, frickin selfish. Your goal, your you're telling me I'm not saying this to you directly? I, I'm saying this is like inner conversation with that. I don't even want to say God, this is how God talks to me or what he's been telling me. It's not it's not a spiritual thing. This is like inner dialog. Okay, sure, sure. Take it for whatever it's worth. But how it's inspired me is to to have a higher reverence and honor for my creator in the regard that, the clarity that I was not put here to just provide for my marriage and my family and make, you know, a 20, 30, 50 grand a month household income or something like. That's very small thinking. And I would encourage anyone else is kind of like the ruffled feathers. Some part it's like, oh man, if I could just make eight grand a month or ten grand a month, it's like I would be thinking, how do you make $100,000 a month? Go create, go multiply, go lean and ask. I'm not saying, okay, God, how do I make hundreds? It's not about the number, it's about growth. There's the parable of the talents five, two and one talents. Okay? The one the person that was not growing. What did the master say to that person? You wicked, you wicked and lazy servant. It wasn't like, oh, I mean, you protected it like there was zero, zero positive recognition. It was. Give me that back. How dare you? And then gives it to the guy that you know, five talents and now so to much is given, much is required. And listen, if you're given one talent. If you're given two, if you're given 15 talents, the clear message is grow and multiply and steward. You're not like and whatever that is, if you're in progress, you're in momentum and you're you're doing that. That in my opinion, from what I currently know, that is the right that's a good direction. And so, like we show up with the fish in the loaves, to use the other parable, we can't feed 5000 people, but we can show up with our fish and loaves. And it's God. It's Holy Spirit that multiplies. It's in the nature of who he is. An apple. Is there one seed in an apple? There's multiple in the apple. Okay. If we take one of the seeds and we plant it and it apple tree grows, does that tree produce one apple or multiple apples? It's the DNA of the kingdom of heaven. Multiplication is built in. And so to not do that, like I feel like God hit me with some of this stuff years ago where I was like, my net worth is not growing like we were. Okay. And, you know, like living your life and and that's fine. And it's like, but it's not. And I felt like a conviction. He was like, that's not okay. I was like, but I'm tithing and I'm giving. And we're it's like. And I like, are you going to stay there? It's like you're selling. You're being selfish. There's I've planted more in you. Are you going to say yes. All right. So I love to encourage people to. Yes. Like God loves your marriage and your in your family, in your relationships more than you know how to love them. He loves your kids more than you know how to love your kids. And he certainly loves you more than you know how to love yourself. And and that one's really hard to swallow sometimes. And so as that's true, you will he not like the same power and spirit that's flowing through you? Is that not going to also take care of you and those around you? Like he's not trying to hurt you or harm you or and sometimes it doesn't feel that way. But that's that's true. He's not. Yeah, man. There's so much here, man. So yeah. Don't you. You're good. I would encourage I would encourage somebody to. Yeah. Like don't think about your needs. Don't ignore them. But just know that we're not built to be alone. And there's so much more love and create and I'm. This isn't was very it's very heavy money right now. Your gifting might be teaching. Your gifting might be prayer. You're gifting might be access service, your gifting might be somewhere else. And if you're using the energy and life and breath to spend more time doing those things that might be the multiplication button for you. Okay, so, it's not always a money conversation, right? Wealth. Wealth isn't always having more fiat currency. But it is a useful it's a terrible master, but it can be a useful tool. And I think stewarding that and having best practices and saving and investing and doing different wise thing because these are principles that he's established and multiplying, I think is a good idea. So there's a couple other things, but I've been talking a bunch, man. No, I don't want like I don't want to stop you. I just you were talking and there was a season in my life, and I think I stopped experiencing this because I wasn't listening. I was hearing, but I wasn't listening where a specific scripture in the sermon on the Mount kept reappearing in my life. And and, I want to just read it real fast. It's from Matthew chapter six. It starts at verse 24. So it says, no man can serve two masters for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon. Therefore I say unto you, take no thought for your life, what you shall eat, what you shall drink, nor yet for your body we shall put on is not the life, it is not the life more than meat, and the body more than raiment. Behold the fowls of the air. For they so not, neither do they reap, nor gather their barns. Yet your heavenly father feed of them. Are you not much better than they? Which of you, by taking thought this is. This is the part specifically that I kept hearing over and over and over again. Which of you, by taking thought, can add one cubit unto his stature? And why take thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, and how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin. Yet I say unto you, that even Solomon in all of his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God is so, clothe the grass, which today is, which today is, and tomorrow's cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe ye you, O ye of little faith. Therefore take no thought, saying, what shall we eat? What shall we drink? Or wherewithal shall we be clothed? For your heavenly father? Know it that you need for all things. But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. That's what you referenced earlier, and all these things shall be added unto you today. If it take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow should take care of it. For the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself sufficient unto the day is the evil therein so good. So good, yet like. And in executing that, and practicing that, I don't want to claim to know. Like I mean, God works in such creative ways. It's, you know, but some of the patterns I can say two months ago, okay, I'm focused on, you know, growing flow chart and being a founder and doing the thing. And, you know, there is this three day event I find myself. In one of the most passionate, selfless, talented rooms I think I've ever been in. You know, there's, you know, one guy that designed the iPad, there's another guy that is manufacturing, you know, electrical vehicle charging stations. His client is Tesla. There's, Yeah, the names that we all know. And, the focus for all the people as to and trafficking. And that has nothing to do with the software company that I'm building. But Holy Spirit's like, yeah, I need you at this event, and there's work and connections and stuff to be done. And. Okay, but that has nothing to do. What you asked me to do is it's like, you know that I know that. Right? And so, you know, I go, I so I'm going to the event, you know, sales just I don't know, like just increased like, he, he, like, he provides provision for the vision. Yeah. He provides resource like when it's, he knows. And that's just capital or sales. How about people? I don't, I don't know how to code anything. And I'm a, I'm a tech founder again. Right. I like running running companies. Running tech companies out along like this isn't. It's not like I went to school for this. But when vision is dropped. And then I meet a guy from Lithuania and DMs, you know, shortly after, and he's already started in the direction of the project. And I'm like, well, here we go, you know? Yeah. Did you? So I have a this is in line with what you said. Did you you didn't go to like MIT or Stanford and like that did you. Oh do you. Like like. Communication major. Yeah. Okay. And in, like state college school, you know, in California, Southern Cal, I went on a golf scholarship and, you know, and those I mean, the. Now I'm doing. The class, I don't I have I don't even remember. I remember like, maybe two classes I took, you know, And it's so funny, like, so today I was having this conversation with my wife, and I literally said, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, like, I mean, like, look, I haven't known what I'm doing the whole time. I had a vision, my background in SAS sales, that's where I came from. Right? That's it was sales. Sales in general. But later my career in SAS, that's where I had the idea for the company. Right. And but like I just had the idea is I'm gonna figure it out. And that's what I did. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. With lots of prayer, lots of father, like, you know better than I do. Just man, I get emotional talking about it. I'm sorry, but, like, it's just, you know, man, it just takes a lot. And I was talking my wife, and I'm like, you know, because I keep seeing these guys that went to Stanford and MIT and, you know, UCLA, you know, all of these other schools were, again, I don't know, I just these places and all these degrees and, you know, masters and, you know, computer. Comparison stuff. Coding geniuses and stuff like that, man. And I'm like, dude, who am I to play? Who am I to play in this arena with these guys? Like, I'm just being honest with you, it doesn't mean I'm quitting. And because I'm not, I'm just like, these are the like, I want people to know if you're feeling this. I have felt this, and it's interesting to talk to you as somebody that has had an exit, that's founded another company that's doing well. It's like, no, you didn't come from that background either. But what separates you from all these other people and the audience that we have in the background that we want, or people that put their discipleship first. Right. Like that's what separates you. You know, when. When you surrender your life, I'll say back to, to God when when you're like, all right, Holy Spirit, where are we going today? You have an unfair advantage. You get access to wisdom, resources. That just happen and flow. I'm not saying I don't work. I've. I've had sleepless nights. I've had all this, you know, like and sometimes he just he wakes me up. Are you sure? It's like 245, 330 right now. Like, he's like, you know, and there's stuff on my heart and I'm walking around my house praying, or that's not every night, but like, that's not like it's not in for monthly. Quarterly. It's multiple times a year. I don't, you know, it's just like, such as the path. Like he just when it's there, you don't know. And it's not convenient that God's you know, Holy Spirit's like, isn't isn't a candle that's, you know, you can put in a little holder and you can light it when you want. And that's how it works. The freaking furnace. It's a wild fire. It's not meant to be understood. Contained by it. And for those reasons, it can't be manipulated or anticipated. It is. It is. And we can, you know, surrender and jump on board and be available or not. You know what I mean? Like, you know, so being that that's the case, like, yeah, it's like, you know, bumpy at times, and uncomfortable. But man, the piece is the, the biggest kicker. Like his presence being in his presence. And there's peace in heart. There's peace in mind. He's the giver of rest. There's stronghold. There's like, I guarantee you, there's someone listening, watching this right now, and there's strongholds in your life. There's things you're doing that you just don't want to do, and you think that it's going to be willpower and discipline that's going to change it. And you already know it's not going to work because it hasn't for the last year or five years or ten years. There is, but there is a Holy Spirit that is greater, that is more powerful, that can do in seconds what picks men decades. It's a spiritual thing. There's another buddy in our, Bible study. He had, like, just this pain in his back. Man. Like, it was just. It was really kind of screwing up his life. And you know what he was used to, and he he has done very well on multiple businesses. And so he's got the best chiropractors. He's got massage and tours, like he's doing everything physical. And by the way, he was a pro athlete, pro baseball player. Like so he has the mental physical discipline. Like there's no prior injury. Like he did everything physical. And six, seven months later he's like, wait a minute. Yes. For prayer. It was gone before he got home and hasn't been back since. I'm just saying that the spirit spiritual world, like, I don't know, like a ton about it. I'm I'm learning. I it's just it's real are more real than I am in front of you. Yeah. And sometimes we're trying to solve a spiritual problem with, with physical and finite thinking. And it's not behavior modification. You know, you feel like. Sorry, I mean, interrupt, but I want to ask this question before I forget. Do you feel like, your journey as a founder was not just was not the journey just to be a founder? Obviously, you clearly believe that. But it was two, refine you as a disciple. Like that was a path that you needed to take to grow as a disciple of the Lord. Like the simple. So, yes, is the short answer. I, I, I spent time with him to know his voice and and I'm not saying to have a perfect. But I have, sir. I've died to myself. I don't give my Sundays to Christ. I gave my life to Christ. What does that mean? It means the thoughts that I think it means how, I view sex. It means how I look, think and act and speak and treat my wife and other women. It means what? The food I eat or don't eat or fast or what? Everything. Everything is on the table. I, I, I don't like. All of that is for him to guide and lead me. Even when I was really young, I was like, Lord, I'm curious to experience love, sex and marriage the way that you designed it. So when I was 16, well, I had porn, masturbation. I had those things in my life at the time. Well, guess what wasn't intended to be there? So there is a couple year period of biting through through those patterns and and those addictions and all those things and eventually was broken. It's been almost 20 years. And so there's freedom on the other side. I know statistically 30 to 60%, maybe even higher of the slanders men and women, you know, heavily men are struggling with that. Oh, that's just how it is. And you don't know you like, you don't understand. You don't understand the power and the glory in the holiness of our Heavenly Father. And it's awesome. There's freedom you like. We weren't made. We weren't given the spirit of timidity or fear. We were given the spirit of power and righteousness. We get to control and manage and steward what we think and what we feel and what we do. We are not to be manipulated. Yeah. So when we have these other agreements and strongholds in our life and in other aspects, listen, we surrender to those things. Holy spirit fills that void and those things are not allowed to come back. And and it's not willpower. It's not like I'm a pretty disciplined, like motivated dude. Motivation and discipline gets you up at three, four in the morning. You're going to work everybody. You're going to kick their butt. You're going to train harder. I've, I played sports my whole life. Martial arts competed on American Ninja Warrior for three seasons. Like I get the, like, mind body connection thing to some degree. That works for a year. That works for maybe 2 or 3 years. But the power of surrender works for eternity. And takes a fraction of the amount of effort. So I would encourage anyone listening, like daily surrender. What does that look like? Ask him, hey Holy Spirit, what is in my life? Thoughts, actions, people, desires that are hindering, that are offending you as a person? Talk to them what is hindering or offending you. And he'll. And maybe he shows you that moment. Maybe you are. Or maybe I'm talking and you already know what it is. But either way, don't ignore that. Don't or don't move past that. And then. Okay, well, I need, like, can someone pray for me? You know, when that thought or pattern habit comes up? Like what? Scripture kind of, like, protects you, encounters that just start saying that over and over and over. Listen, I so that journey for on the on the rocks and all that stuff, I waited for marriage. So do my wife. I waited from 16 to 26. The the time of life for testosterone and hormones, for the most insane. I was some of the hardest, you know, mentally, emotionally. I had to pay attention to what was going on, like, every second. It's not, frankly, but, like what was built, the character and the closeness, you know, to him, that was built was I'm still learning, but like that, dude, I'm telling you, it's worth. I'm just saying it's worth it. Like there's nothing else in this world that will satisfy, that will compare to that. Like it's not. It's just not even close. It's not even close. So I love that, man. I it's so interesting because a while ago I was talking to you about like my faith journey and, and kind of where I've come from, you know, before we started recording and, a while ago, I decided that I needed to challenge my own faith because I feel one of the beliefs I hold very strongly is it's not enough to know what you believe. You have to know why you believe it, right? Because so many people have opinions. And that's just with everything, I don't care. It's your your faith. I don't care if it's your religion or your, you know, your political views, like your life views, your values, whatever it may be. A lot of we hold opinions either because we've been told to hold them right, or we feel like it's what's expedient for the moment, right, for a lot of different reasons. And so I've just always I believe that, you know, I'd say since my senior year of high school was like the first time I heard that, I'm like, I'm going to take that with me, you know? So I decided, like, okay, what do I believe? Why do I believe it? You know? And so I looked at everything. I looked at, you know, my faith, looked at outside the faith. I looked at agnosticism, atheism. I mean, I went down the rabbit hole because I'm like, I want to know because I'm a very like, history. And, you know, I don't consider myself an analytical person, man. But for whatever reason, this fire that was lit in me, like I looked at everything, I mean, I did look I looked at Bayesian frameworks and like, probabilities and like all that stuff, man. And it and I still they're like I become I would say become a better apologist. And I probably ever have been in this moment, you know, and not that I seek to be an apologist, but it's just the natural course of action from the journey that I began, you know? And I look when I was looking at atheism and, and, you know, and, and just the arguments for and against it, you know, the one of the, one of the many thoughts that came to me was how naive must you be to think the only thing that exists is what you can see? That's a. You know, like, that's an I was just like in that like. Yeah. Like, even if I didn't believe in Christ, even if I didn't know and like from a historical perspective. Right. This is the ball just coming out. I mean, there's not a historian in the world that says, Christ, the man, Jesus of Nazareth didn't exist. It's the argument that C.S. Lewis gave. Is he a liar, lunatic, or Lord? That's really what it comes down to, right? And so, you know, long story short, is thinking about that. Think about the spiritual, the spiritual realm and, and, and just the arguments for and against the faith. And even if I didn't believe that Christ is Lord and I know he's Lord and I and I choose to follow him, it's like there is so much more that is happening than we know of. Oh yeah. Yeah. And what I find interesting is that your strength as a founder has come from the knowledge of. Not that there is not only that, there is more happening around you that you don't, that you can't even fathom, that you don't understand. You just decide to accept what is. But you take it one step further and accept the truth. The truth shall set you free, right? Well, the truth is not a concept. It's a person. The man God for human fully man, found in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the truth. And he is what sets us free. Right? And that to me, all these things you're talking about, you're saying. And I've gotten so much value out of our conversation thus far, but it sticks out to me that Chris, you you're free in the truest sense of the word because you're free in Christ. All these other exterior factors and all these things that could bring you down, that could, that have hurt your heart, that, you know, you don't seem to me as somebody that's never had anything bad happen to them. Right? A lot of opponents of Christianity say, well, you're just Christian or believe in God because nothing bad's ever happened to, you know, I've experienced hardship and I believe you probably have as well. Right. It's ulcers. Trip to the hospital. Yeah, I do. There's you. Yeah. Right. I just and so, you can and it was I my point being is like, I see that in you. I see that peace in you. I see that freedom that is found only were true. Freedom is found which is in our Savior. Yeah, yeah, dude, it's. There is a peace and a freedom when you know your. When I know that I'm. I'm surrendered. And so practically you're saying like those ups and downs or hardships or how do you know or wrestling with money and like I was never try being a tax if you want to. Time is gonna be a tax on or I don't even I was like, well that sounds kind of cool. Like what's that got? You know what I mean? And so and you know. Like build robots or something, you know. I'll build robot like. So on. Unlike the, you know, the commission only sales job was talking about, you know, earlier, like, I was, I was growing in the company and I made 26 grand on my tax return the first year, and then it was 44 grand and change, and then it was 107 grand and change. And I was like, that was my big goals. Like I to make it was like, I don't know, 100 grand a year. Sounds like more than my friends. That sounds cool. You know, I'm 20 or whatever and like mid 20s and, and then as soon as it happened and I looked at, I was like, oh my God, I did it. And then next I was like, I still feel exhausted and broke and, but I was like, wait, that's how this works. Like, why do you pick 100 grand? Why don't I pick a quarter million? You know, and so it's like, okay, well, how would I do that if I had ten different ways to do it? And then you go do it. The thought grows. But listen, I was offered to run like the state of Nevada. I'm in Las Vegas, on behalf of my company. That's like quarter million base plus team and bonus and all the things I was like, oh my God. Like, I'm finally like that. Would, you know, things just doubled or tripled again for me. And God's like, yeah, but that's not where we're going. And so like right before I was like about to step into that he's like and switch gears into this to be an insurance like to run my own insurance agency. And I was like, I bet like, I don't like insurance. I don't really want. To do that. And so I had a small team of five. We crushed sales goals. I learned I was so, oh gosh, there's a lot different stressful points there. And and then, you know, the way that that carrier was set up like a year into it, that's where I took on some of the debt. Like, they're like, hey, so you hit all our goals and but we're we're discontinuing our contract with you. Why? Like what happened? What's going on? God, move me again. And I still had two years on the lease agreement of the building, so I still had to pay that without the business that I was. It's just a massive disconnect. And, like, like crap, I still owe, like, another 30 grand on this thing. Yeah. So where's that going to come from? Where it like I didn't I wasn't, you know, well I don't I didn't have like all my businesses have come from nothing. And so it's not like I had money and I'm just going to pour in on the business and hope it worked like, no, dude. Like, it's been commission only I have nothing. You only eat what you kill and you have to reinvest that wisely and steward and like, that's bootstrap zone, like that's my world. And so then but you say like so I know that I know that I know that I'm surrendered. Because in the journey there's like I, it's always like, oh, I'm getting there. He's like, okay, shoot. Switch. Now you go on this direction. Oh God, I gotta start at the bottom and relearn everything again. Like, it's just so humbling. But yeah, what's what was being built is the foundation in the character. And you know how I know this? I can share this, this really brief story because I know that others will, you know, you can connect with this. Have you ever gone back to your high school reunion or gone back to the city, or, you know, a neighborhood that you grew up in? Yeah, I'm not until high school where, you know, I refused to go to one of those, but, I was like, I didn't go back to my hometown for my cousin's wedding a couple of years ago. Yeah. And so when you go back, what happens? You're like everything. Everything looks the same. Yeah. Looks the. Same. Has it changed? You remember what you were thinking when you were at that season? Your life. You meet some of the people there. They're still kind of the same way, talking the same. And and so I had that moment when I went back to like, this other, like, networking group that I was a part of, you know, years, removed. I was like, wow, it's the same thing, like same business owners. Their businesses are in the same spot. The way they think in the problems they solve are all the same. And I didn't realize how much I was learning. And how much I was growing and how fast it was all happening, until I went back to kind of that time marker in my life. Sometimes we can always pick up on it or see that, but that constant just being willing to keep like, but, you know, I don't know if that's the right move, but I'll make less money. And money was never the indicator to I'm not saying I it wasn't a part of the thought or, you know, the conversation. Right. But it was absolutely not. The first thing I was like, Lord, is this is this where you're leading? And I, like even I know it was him because a lot of times I didn't like I wasn't super stoked to go some of those directions, but, but it's like at the end of the day when I put my head on the pillow, it's like, Chris, do you trust me? And I have to be able to answer yes or no? And I want to be able to answer yes. And so it's like, am I being faithful with that or not? And even if it even if I, even if I like mishear or like, how do you hear the voice of God or how do you do? It's like look like you go with like your gut and prayer and counsel and you know, people around you and and even if you don't like nail it, but your your focus and your thought process and, and what you're optimizing around is like, am I ultimately fully surrendered and trusting him? It was still works out somehow. Yeah. You know what I mean. He'll show you when that's your heart and see. Because when you seek, you'll find. Yeah, yeah. I had, obviously a part of the founder journey is learning a lot of things that you don't know in the beginning, right? Like, like what you just said is you don't know how much you actually have learned until you. So, like, I had that experience because I felt like I don't know anything. And like one of my favorite sayings is, I don't know what I don't know, and I'm good with that. You know what I'm saying? I'm just not okay with not learning it, you know, or at least not surrounding myself with the people that do know those things and trusting in their opinions to help in those areas. Right. And, but, you know, I had an experience where I had opportunity to help, consult with some people, and I just did a pro bono. I'm like, yeah, to help out. And I don't know how much I'll be able to give you. And I go in there and I'm like, I kind of leave the meeting like an hour later. I actually knew some stuff, you know, and I. And I didn't know that I knew those things. And it wasn't like fluff. Like there were things they asked me that's like, I don't really know the answer to that question. You have to figure that out somewhere else. But like I, I left there and thinking, okay, so I have I have learned some things. Now I say all of that to kind of come back to my original question of imposter syndrome. I have found in the founder, life is very, very real, right? Yeah. And one of the ways that you combat imposter syndrome from the faith out of perspective is knowing your true identity and where that lies, right. You coming from somewhere that, like you said, you didn't plan on being a tech founder. You didn't go to, like, business school or. No, like, this is what I was going to do. It sounds like you name it sounds like clearly you were led there by the Lord. How did you did you experience an imposter syndrome and how did you do it? I have a different word for it. I call it encouragement. It's where you're inspired and discouraged all at the same time. I live that like super day. So yeah, it's like and so but but where this gets you know, where this flares up is comparison. And so you know oh when I look at this person and they got these degrees they do these thing like what you're doing is you're comparing somebody else's path and where they're at in their journey and your perception of how you think they feel about it and what they're actually doing to, to a, you know, current belief or understanding of yourself. And so when you spend more time looking at where you're going and what the mission is to accomplish, which is typically, you know, serving a certain market or people group, like I'm I'm here to serve founders. So chat is designed to serve founders. They know what it's like to be stuck in your business and not know how to grow or not get the support or resources you need. And and so like our, our tech solves that problem, by finding the right people, whether it's being a customer or the right hire or raise capital or whatever, it solves that problem. But on a personal level, those are the people that I'm serving because I am that person. So I know, you know, I can ask business questions, but I can talk to the relationship part of it. I know how to serve those people. And so come back to service. There's one main point, though, that I, pass me. You were saying the. Imposter, like, how to encourage. Me? So, so, like, let's rewind before I even, like, you know, building companies and all this stuff. And I'm like it, you know, I want to have a solid marriage. I want to be close to my family, and I want to build multi-million dollar businesses. And a lot of my circle around me would be like, well, Chris, you can't have it all. Of course you want that. You know, it's like that was like dreaming big. And I'm like, you know, it really doesn't seem like that's like thinking super big. Like you're telling me that out of billions of people, there's no one that has a happy, fulfilling marriage. They're raising incredible, you know, humans and kids and they're running businesses. You're telling me that doesn't exist? Like, logically, I'm like, that makes no sense to me. Yeah, it's funny because I, I remember reading a Y Combinator thing once, like, I was doing the Y Combinator startup school three thing they have, and one of their things was like, what? You know, what it takes to be a founder, essentially. And one of the sections of that was discouraging people that had families or kids from being a founder, like, actively in the document. It was. And I'm like, you know what? Like, you know, maybe that works for some people, you know what I'm saying? But it it just seemed it was just so blatant, like the the guy like in there said he was like, don't do it if you have a family. So you know, and and there and here's the thing, they're not wrong. That thinking is super common. Yeah. And it's like, well, it takes over your life. Yeah. If that's your God, if that's your idol, if that's who you worship. But what happened, Jamie is less than, you know. About a year later notice, I was thinking these things, praying these things. It didn't happen yesterday. Didn't happen the next week. But a year later, I find myself in a room in this thing called a mastermind. This is years ago, obviously, but I find myself in a mastermind. I was like, what's a mastermind? Why am I spending so much money to be in this room? Wait a minute, I paying this guy? I was Russell Brunson. I was in his inner circle, you know, with the with my, now, now and still co-founder, Sean. And I was like, wait a minute. We're paying Russell to be in this room. We're all going on stage and giving all of our best stuff. So we spend money to come to this place twice a year to give him all of our best ideas. This guy's a genius. And it's like, I think you get us to do this. What I. And in that room, I was like, Holy cow, and he's Mormon. So it's like there's there's kind of like a, like, faith undertone, amongst, you know, a lot of people in that inner circle, like 2017, 2019, it might not be in there anymore. Probably similar patterns still there, but, what I'm what I'm notice though, is encouragement. Was there where I was like, oh, man, this is awesome. I mean, the pieces like, Alex and Layla Hermosa, you were there, right? And thing, you know, now, like, they're freaking everywhere. Yeah. Right. And they. Were still awesome then, right? But they were more like, crushing outbound sales, still doing all those things, but, like, like ads. And they were just really taking off and exploding. So there's Hermosa there's so many other talented entrepreneurs like that in the room. You're totally inspired as also wildly encouraged. I am by far the stupidest, poorest person in this room. And but that's, I and it it didn't feel good, honestly, but I was like, I want to be in this room, you know, I was like, oh, get to be around the people I want to be in the room. Like, no, you feel like garbage when you're in the room. But I knew that if I was in that environment, it's only a matter of time before I learn to ask questions and I start adapting and adjusting. I also knew that part of the path that I was going down, I was like, here we go. Like, I mean, people connecting. It was this is the path that he's he's laid out this way. I say I'm founder by but not by title. It's like, this is how I've been wired to navigate the world and do the thing statistically, most people should not be an entrepreneur, just a 2 to 5%. Most people are actually like, I'm not saying they can't. I'm saying they're just not like designed or wired to do it, you know? And it can be a super frustrating path. And it's and it's like, okay, you can't have a family because you have to like, devote yourself to it unless you're called to it. And so, look, a lot of people can be what's called an entrepreneur, meaning you're entrepreneurial, but you can pair up with somebody that a visionary that knows where they're going. And you can still be your entrepreneurial, creative self inside entrepreneur, someone else's business. There's nothing wrong, nothing wrong with that. And because there's plenty of things I'm not, I'm just not capable of doing, like my own company. Yeah. So anyway, we're not designed, you know, designed to be alone. You know, we're we're set up to, you know, work together. And that unity, that unity is, you know, done, done well as part of the culture of the kingdom of heaven. Yeah. I mean, that is well, it's funny because one of the missions of Faithful Founder is to build a community of Christ centered founders right to share in the hardship of the journey that is being a founder and as well as in being a Christian. Right. We know Christianity is not is not, rainbows and flowers and the path is easy. Christ didn't say, yeah, it's going to be a bounce house, right? Like he he talked about the narrowness of the path. He talked about the carrying of the cross. He talked about the suffering that absolutely would incur for the Christian, for the people that decided to follow him. Right. And you see that in the disciples, all the disciples, tradition says, or more except for John. Right. And those are men that clearly followed him, you know, like none other. Right. And obviously Judas, you know, that goes without being said. Yeah. So comparing comparing yourself to others, like another quote I love by Ernest Hemingway, is there is nothing ignoble in being superior to your fellow man. True nobility is being superior to your former self. You know, are you growing? That's a. Good one. Yeah. It's just so it gives you a different target. Right? The comparison thing will never feel like set good in your soul and your gut or whatever. You know, when you focus on the right things, you know, that it will amplify and grow and you'll you'll think. You'll think you know the right thoughts. You'll get the right inputs and, and, be able to execute better. Yeah. Well, man, I, we'll we'll wrap this up, but I really appreciate your time. I appreciate all the guidance in the, the value that you gave today. I know the audience is going to, you know, I appreciate it a ton, because there is it can be, man, it can be a lonely, tough journey, right? If you decide to do it by yourself. But the one thing I would say to the audience is that doing it by yourself is a choice. The relationship that is available to us through Jesus Christ of revealing God to us. Right? Like taking on the flesh a man and saying, you will only know the father, you know through me and by me, right? He has made that personal relationship with God the Father and himself and the spirit accessible, right? So this journey on this journey only becomes that lonely, that heart, I mean, the heart of is real, but it's I mean, and Christian sounds like you could you would agree with this, that that hardship is only amplified by the lack of relationship, if you so choose that. Right. It's, I've always said I don't know how how people that don't believe in God and Christ walk through this life. I really I mean, because there's been times that. Goes out to him, I would make it. That's what I'm saying. Like, I've had the moments of doubt. I've had the moments of like, do I really believe this? Do I really? And those were resolved. But in those moments it was dark and bleak, you know, and I think it's a I think being an entrepreneur, being a founder, and we don't put a label on what that is here. Like it's there's so many different ways to be a founder, an entrepreneur, like he's an entrepreneur. Right. But it's a microcosm of life, really. Like, I mean, it's a perfectly like, you know, example of what life is in a smaller, you know, time frame for a lot of people, you know, with all that, with all that being said, it's man, life is hard enough without the Lord. And doing what we're doing. Do it when you've done during doing what? I'm this journey that I began, I, Yeah, it's, I don't understand how you go through without that relationship. So, needless to say, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for the value you provided. Thank you for the wisdom you've provided. Where can people find you and where can they support you and what you're doing? Oh, yeah. Like any of the social chat, Facebook, Instagram link, whatever social platform you like on there is Chris Baden or I think my handle on Instagram is like the Chris Baden. Yeah. Chris at flow chat.com if you want to email me, usually my team's more so and like my social platforms, but you can email me directly at Chris slow chat.com. So yeah, those work and we have a free Facebook group and YouTube channel. Like there's tons of, like, free stuff that will, help with sales or help with marketing or, that you don't even need flow chat to, you know, growth. As always, everybody, thank you for tuning in to PayPal. Founder. If you don't know Jesus, know him. Take care.