Faithful Founder

More Than Hustle: Spiritual Rhythms for the Christian Entrepreneur – with Spencer Brooks

• Jamie Cain

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Can Innovation and Faith Go Hand-in-Hand for Founders?

In this episode of The Faithful Founder Podcast, Jamie Cain sits down with Spencer Brooks—founder of Brooks Digital, drummer, and digital strategist for nonprofits—to talk about what it really looks like to lead a business that prioritizes discipleship over hustle culture.

Spencer shares his journey of building a successful agency while staying rooted in his identity as a follower of Jesus. They dive into the challenges of leadership, the weight of expectations, and the spiritual disciplines that keep Christian founders grounded in purpose. From morning prayer rituals in a literal closet to practicing a weekly Sabbath, Spencer offers practical, hard-won wisdom on aligning your business with God's kingdom.

They also explore the power of innovation through the lens of faith—and why following Jesus may be the most innovative path a founder can walk.

Whether you’re burnt out from the grind, striving for success, or simply seeking clarity on how to lead your company without losing your soul, this episode will encourage, challenge, and equip you.

New episodes release monthly. Subscribe now and join the growing community of faithful founders transforming the world for God’s glory!

Connect with Spencer Brooks

🌐 Website: www.brooks.digital
📱 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/spencerbrooks

Thank you for tuning in to The Faithful Founder Podcast! If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other faith-driven leaders.

Thank you for tuning in to The Faithful Founder Podcast! If this episode inspired you, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with other faith-driven leaders.

Stay connected with Jamie Cain and explore more content:

Join us monthly for new episodes and keep leading your business with faith and purpose!

When I think about innovation, I think about people who are pushing the envelope, who are doing things that are different, who are doing things that might be like that people haven't seen before. And so I think, honestly, if you're a founder who is following Jesus, who is, you know, trying to put yourself in that mindset of like, I'm this isn't my own kingdom, that you're going to be thinking about problems and things that in a completely different way from most other people. Faithfulness is at the core of me being a founder. With good business values and ethics comes from the Bible. Lead with a relationship with Christ. Lead with your knowledge of the gospel to. When the metaphor is that I always love to use is that, you know, it's like a campfire right in the middle of a fire and that surrounds a campfire or these rocks. And as the fire burns, those rocks get hotter and hotter, right? Like so they become to the point where you can't pick them up. Or the Gospel of Jesus Christ should be the fire, and then those rock should be the things that are the facets of your life, right? Like for me, it's fatherhood. It's being a husband, it's being an entrepreneur or being a podcast host. Right? It's being a member of my church community, a broader member of my, you know, you know, the actual community that I'm that I live in. Yeah. All of those things are heated by my discipleship, my relationship with Christ. Right. So too many people compartmentalize their faith and don't let it shine through the things that matter. Like, you should let your faith shine through in your business. You know you should let your faith shine through. And if your husband or father, especially in those places you know. Yeah, that's a great concept. And I know, like, you're obviously just getting this thing off the ground. It sounds like we're recording a couple episodes and then you know what? So obviously you're like, you have your own business that you're running, right? That's correct. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like, with that, I mean, man, I would just I might just end up interviewing you by accident, but. I think we're going. I'm going. Just we're already recording, so. Yeah, let's let's flow. Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. So like, I, I'm, I'm interested to, to figure out how you got this idea of doing the podcast in the first place. Right. So it's like, it sounds like you're taking that approach with your own business, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so did you just end up saying like, hey, I feel like I'm the only guy that is taking this seriously, and I want to talk to other people or like, I just don't get a lot of examples of that. I was that kind of the idea behind it is just saying. Well, the original idea of the podcast was to have myself, my co-founders all and talking about life as a startup. You know, we're in the tech software, specifically SaaS space, right? But in the tech space more broadly and talking about what it is to be a tech founder through the Christian perspective, right? Because I, we just hadn't seen it. Right. And was hosting the early startup stages. It was it was the concept game because it's like I would want to listen to a podcast like that. I don't know what I'm doing. I do know that I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, or at least I try to be right. And I do know that I definitely have a company now, and we're running that, you know, and it's just like, it would be nice to listen to somebody in my seat. And so that was the lightbulb was like, well, let's do that for other people. Let's, let's make sure that we can let other people know, like it. Not only is it okay, but you're called to lead with your discipleship in your entrepreneurship, right? Like you're called to do that. And here we are doing that. I brought the idea, we brought on Aloha with nation and and, you know, to handle like, our PR needs to do things more broadly. And I ended up bringing up the podcast idea with them, and we kind of ran with it. And nation, you know, talked about having on, you know, guests like yourself that are Christians, you know, entrepreneurs and having these conversations so that we can shine a light to the community more broadly. I want to see more founders that lead with their Christian faith. Right. So that's kind of long story short. You know, long story short, that's that's what it looks like. But, you. Know, that I eat that kind of stuff up. You know, honestly, like, there's so few resources out there, it's kind of mind boggling. Yeah. To be honest. Right. Yeah. I think the only other, you know, there's this, what I would call it is like, it's sort of like an incubator. Incubator for. Like, Christian faith based founders. It's called Praxis Labs. Yeah, I've heard of Praxis. Praxis, yeah. And that has honestly been the single resource that I've, I've, I visited and said they there's actually stuff there that is meaning like meaningfully impact how I structure my day to day life. As someone who owns and runs a business and that. So anyway, I that's all to say that I think that this is really valuable. Thanks for it. You know, like I, I think these conversations are really good. I love to talk with other people who are in this space because I don't know if you've felt this way, but as, is someone sitting in like a leadership seat, especially when you're the person running or you're the founder or whatever. Yeah. Most of the people I talk to on a day to day basis don't necessarily have the understanding or empathy, or they just don't have the same experience. I can't be like, hey, you know, when you feel like all the problems roll up to you and you're just dealing with all this, like, you know, all these problems, or it's just like, it's like, I know that because you work in a different area or, you know, this just isn't your life, that you may not totally understand this. And there's not a lot of people I do, you know, I do meet people, but it's like, you know, it's just only every once in a while or I'm like, you're serious about your faith, and you know what it's like to be in a position where you're in charge of. It's not a common. It's not a common combination. You know what I'm saying? I meet a lot of people that are incredibly serious about their faith. Right. Like when I go to my church, like, I mean, the person leads our congregation and is is a holy man, am I? And his wife's an amazing, you know, woman and and but they're not entrepreneurs, you know what I'm saying? Like it. So it's like it's like the other day I was talking to him. They didn't even know what I did for work. And I was just kind of talking to them about what I do, you know, and, and, and they were really interested, but they couldn't relate. Right. Just because I just, like, I can't relate to leading a congregation, you know what I'm saying. And so but to find other people that, that it's that put their faith first because that's what we're called to do. Right? Like we're we are called to, where we talked about this the other day and that episode that we did, which is a drop our nets. And what does that mean metaphorically? It's like dropping literally everything and following Christ. Right. And I take that very seriously. Doesn't mean I'm perfect at it. Right. But it's like we said in the beginning, there's so many people that compartmentalize. Yes, I'm a Christian. Yes, I'm a founder. But the founder thing comes first. I really separate those things in my life. You know, I don't I don't let those things intermingle, which I think is a mistake because you can really show people the power of the Christian story and true discipleship. If you if people see like, yeah, you know, Spencer doesn't shove his faith down our throats. He's not trying to converse every single time we talk to him. Or Jamie's not trying to convert his employees to Christianity, but, like, man, those guys, like, really treat their employees well. And those guys really treat their customers right. Mean they really, like, care about doing the ethical thing. Like, why is that? Oh, because I take their Christian faith incredibly seriously. I don't know if that's how you feel, but that's something that, you know, I think is a no brainer for Christian founders and why we should lead with our faith. Yeah, yeah. I think the like, the way that I think about that is sort of like I have my own little kingdom and like, that's something God has given to me is like a little kingdom that includes the stuff that's under my area of influence. Right. So it's like my, like, this house that I own is like part of my part of my kingdom. Yeah. Like, you know, the car that I have, right? The business that I own is a part of this little kingdom. And it's like God, his God has given that to me to manage. And I have a choice of whether I'm going to put that kingdom under God's kingdom. Like bring that into what he's doing and or not. Right? I could say, oh, like, yeah, like I have like a faith, but like, I'm going to run this thing my own way and I'm not going to let those things intersect. But I think for me, that's where I think about it. It's like, I, I do have a choice to bring this little kingdom that I have inside of God's kingdom. And like, I think what that means for me is that when I am operating independently, like I'm just running the show myself, then I'm just making whatever decisions I feel like are best. Yeah, and. I'm making unilateral choices. I'm just saying. All right, well, I think this is good, so I'm going to do it. But if I'm under the authority of someone else, like I'm going to make decisions in consideration of what they would do or want to do and what their goals and objectives are. Just like, I'm the manager of something, you know, that someone else has given me. So in this case, it would be like I'm trying to think about who in this situation like, what would Jesus do? Yeah. Or like what God is I what what is he up to in this particular situation? What is God's will in this situation? Right. Like yeah. Yes. Sorry to interrupt but that's. Yeah. You're. No it's exactly right. Yeah. Go ahead. No, I was just there. Just to add to what you're saying is it's it's not something that I've thought about a lot is like with our with our company help ghost. Right. We one of the things that we joked about ale, it was as a joke, but it it became serious, which is we want to bring in what would Jesus do into the corporate environment, right. Like what? How would you do that in a corporate, you know, in a corporate environment, you know, for lack of a better term, right. And then that then would that really be boils down to is what is God's will for me in this thing? That's really what it is like. What is God's will for me as a husband, as a father? What is God's will for me as a friend? Right? As a as a man, right? What is God's will for me as an entrepreneur or for a business owner or for, you know, we're not we don't employ anybody. Yeah, but that is the hope, obviously. What is God's will for me as an employer? You know, and I think that is are one of the key focuses for any Christian, for any faithful founder, is to find God's will. In the Bible you said, your kingdom. I use the word stewardship a lot, right like that, where the rings true for me is that God is giving me this thing to be a steward over. Right? And so what is his will for me in my stewardship? Right? It sounds like you think very similarly. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a it's a constant fight. Right. Because I think that there's, there's strong entrepreneurship messages and stories like stories out there about like that, this thing, you know, is yours. And you should just maximize it to get as rich and famous as you possibly can and or like your success is measured by the profit or, you know, this IPO or how much funding you've raised or, you know, whatever. Right. But I think that. Yeah, like, that's where stewardship, where the rubber hits the road for me. I think about that because, you when you are stewarding something that someone else owns, then you're, you're like, not looking out for your own. Yeah. Stuff anymore. Right? I love that because what you're saying is, like, I don't own like, you called it, your kingdom, right? So, you know, we'll go with, like, my kingdom. I don't know, it's God's kingdom, right? You're saying, like, he's given it to me to be a steward over. But at the end of the day, I don't own this. Right? We know that all good things come from God. Who's the author of all good things, right? It is his grace that provides the goodness in our lives, right? Strictly through his love for us. Right. And so, I mean, to correct me if I'm wrong, but essentially what you're saying is, is that I what he's given me, is it what he's giving me is a matching up to his will for the gift that he has provided, right? Yeah, totally. It's the like the parable of the talents. It's like basically where I'm going with it, right where it's like. And that's literally at the end of that parable is like, well, literally well done, good and faithful servant. Like, you know, I've given you this and like, look what you've come back with. And so that's like very much know obviously this is the Spenser paraphrase. So that's I do not have that in front of you right now. But, you know, the that's the idea of it, right. Is that like, I that's my perspective is like, I, I've been given something and I do have in a sense it is not mine, but it is the responsibility is not. Yes. Right. Yeah. Just and it's the same with kids or anything else. Right. Like they've been given to me. My kids have been given to me for a while as my responsibility to like to steward them until they're going to get released. And so it's just sort of like that I have I have a responsibility. I take it seriously, as if this were mine. But at the end of the day, yeah. It's when someone gives you an expensive gift, right? Like I, you know, I don't like you. You don't want to mess it up, right? Like I have I have, you know, you know, items that have been given me that are like family heirlooms, right? And, like, they're in my possession, but they don't belong to me. They belong to the family. And eventually they'll get that passed down, either my son or my daughter. Right. So, but when you have that gift, you do everything to protect it, right? You do everything not to lose it. You do everything to value it and to teach its value to those around you. Right? Like when, like, my daughter walks in my office and I have some of those family heirlooms in my office, it's I tell the stories behind that. Right. There's value to this. I want you to I want you to see how much I value this, because it's been given to me by something bigger than myself. Right. And we take that to the Christian perspective. Like our lives are very breath, our businesses, our families, everything that you mentioned, it's just this, this incredibly valuable thing that, number one, I know I fall into the trap of of being, maybe not ungrateful, but taking things for granted. Yeah. Right. And and from what I hear in you say is that, one of the keys to honoring God and to, to multiply your talents is to take none of that for granted. Yeah, I think that is the the fundamental challenge for me is that I think that probably you and I and probably a lot of other people listening to this or watching this know that, you know what? Yeah, I should be, you know, making what I'm doing. Like, I should be stewarding my gift better. But I think, like, the something that I think about often is sort of like, because though that way of thinking is not like that, that doesn't come naturally. You're not going to fall into that way of thinking. It there's a there's a totally different perspective in most of the world, and it's sort of like, the law of gravity for me, where if like you're if you're floating around in space, untethered to anything, then whatever the largest body is that's near you is going to start to pull you into its orbit. And so, like the largest body of thinking and the entrepreneur ship space is definitely not stewardship or, you know, submitting your kingdom to God's. Revenue, right? Like that's that's the Holy grail, right? It is. Right. And like, it's just a and it's not like it's just literally like this is a law of human nature. Is that like if you float around without putting any sort of direction, you know, on your cell, like if you're not actively trying to go in a direction, you're just going to get sucked into orbit around this way of thinking. So how I have to think about this is like, I need to actually be intentionally setting my direction towards, like, this upstream way of thinking, which is this isn't my own. This belongs to God. And so how can I build into my day to day life these constant reminders? Because it literally is just like I have to remind myself, like I there has to be habits in my life that remind me of this way of thinking. Because if I take those habits out like it is, I'm just going to get pulled into orbit. And I've seen it happen so much. So I think that that's. I love that analogy. That that's really where I, I think the rubber does meet the road. So what are those habits? And like what are the habits that you find that don't allow you to forget what you're saying? Yeah. No, I think that's good. I like the I think there's simple things like, you know, right now I have, like, the discipline of, trying to, like, get up in the morning before my kids are up. I have a little closet that's right over. You can't see it, but it's like, literally a closet in my office. And so I go in there and I sit down. It's not like I feel like this is not set up. There's literally, like a shelf, and there's like my printer right there. I play drums, so it's full of, like, drum, like cymbals, snares and just, you know, all this other stuff. Right? So I just, like, put a pillow on the floor. And I sit. Right. It's literally like my prayer closet. And so like, I. Literally. Yeah, literally right here, I'm like. Yeah, this is. The one place where my kids don't find me instantly when they wake up. So, you know, I'll just sit in there and, like, journal out, like, here's my cares and concerns for the day. Like, here's the things I'm thinking about. It's usually like the same three things I'm worried about usually at work. Right. And then just like, set that down, close that in, like my journal. Like that's metaphorically. This is like time to give that to God and then just like sit and notice and observe. Right. And I think in those moments it's kind of like I get to center down. I think that's what the Quakers would call it, like centering down into, like this space of here's where, like, here's where reality is. Right? Like, yeah, I need to put aside all these things that I'm worried about, right? All the ways I'm like, I'm I'm not meeting my own expectations for this. This person's like, are they upset with me? Or like, this is a situation that I have to deal with or, man, I haven't got to this in, oh, two weeks or something. All that stuff. Move it aside. Kind of let myself settle a bit and then come back to that. That truth. You know that. Hey, you know what? Like, God is in charge of the outcomes, and I'm. I'm not like, I can contribute to that. So I think that is like, that's one practical thing, is just like when I have that time in the morning then and I let things settle, I bring my cares and concerns before God that that is super, super helpful. Another thing that I've done is if you talk to me for long enough, you'll figure out that, like, even though I like, I grew up and I still continue to be in like the non-denominational church space, I really do like going to the different, like to different, faith traditions and just pulling out the stuff that I'm like, that's super cool. Like, I want to pull that out. One thing I've pulled from, I like the monks and nuns, right. Of all things. Right. Are even like, I think Catholics and Anglicans will do this too. But it's the idea. Of the Gnostic lifestyle, basically. Right? Yeah. Exactly right. The mystic tradition has fixed our prayer, which is like you have, you know, if you go to a monastery, it's like 6 a.m., 9 a.m., noon, three, like the bell rings and everyone just stops what they're doing. Like, you know, if you're writing the letter to someone or whatever, you just, like, drops the pen when the bell rings and you go to pray. And the idea is that, like, time is not yours, but time is God's. And so, anyway, like one thing that I've, that I've done, I think especially in times where I'm like, man, I just feel like I'm getting pulled in a thousand different directions. It's just scheduling that time. It's like a reminder on my phone. Right. That's your event? Yeah. Right. Where it's like noon. I'm going to spend like 15 minutes in prayer and sort of like that bell rings like the event in my calendar hits. And I'm like, and I love my workday. It's just like, you know, you're getting slugged back and forth. You got all this stuff, right? And all of a sudden it's like that bell rings metaphorically and I'm like, right? Yeah. Time is time to do that. Yeah, I yeah, it's funny because I used to do this thing on my phone. Yeah. I don't know why I stopped doing it. I need to do it. I probably, but I was gratitude reminders. I would do three a day.

So like 8 a.m., 12:00, 9:

00 at night. Right. I would have these little alarms that go off. And I would just say three things that I was grateful for and to kind of do, like some breath work and then, you know, go on with about my day. Excuse me, but, I love the idea. It's funny because I have this prayer book that has all of these prayers from like, the early church fathers and, you know, saints recognized in the Eastern Orthodox faith, you know. Yeah. And they, they wrote these prayers down, and they put these in these in these books so that you can see how these holy men and women. Right, like what? How they prayed and what they prayed for. And then you can say their prayers along with them. Right? And that's funny, you look at through all these throughout these prayer books and they have, you know, morning prayers. There's a ton of those they have like midday prayer is evening prayers. And they have like prayers for all these different topics and situations and then miscellaneous, just like one of them just says, say this any time of day. Yeah. This specific prayer. Right. And the idea and I'm like, man, I was just thinking about it this morning. Like, how do you know? How do I remember to do these? And it's and it's just that simple, like sending a reminder and saying that for the next 20 minutes or whatever, it is not my time. It is God's time. And it's and what's interesting, too, is what a lot of non-Christians would say is like, well, you're being subservient, which, yes, we're placing our selves as submissive to the creator, right? Like the creation being submission to the creator, but it's not being submissive, to our detriment. It's being submissive to our growth. It's being submissive to, like, you know, our relationship with God or reciprocates love and reciprocates healing in reciprocated salvation. If reciprocates. What's it called? I guess fixing what is broken, right? Because that's what that's what when you look at like the actual definition of salvation, it means healing. Like salvation is me healing from the natural man to the spiritual being to be joint heirs with Christ. Right? So anyways, it's what you said. It's funny because it's I feel like a dummy and I'm like, yeah, obviously set times on my phone to go through these prayers and to give that time to God so that I may be healed, that I may be that into that relationship with him and stop forgetting him throughout my day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that my experience has been it's a really humbling thing to do because it's just like when that time comes, it's like I, I see it and I'm like, but I'm in the middle of like, did you but do you know that the I got this email right? Or if someone is like pinging me a hack about this stuff or it's like, you know, like there's always a thousand reasons to do it, right? And so I find it's like it actually really is a tough it's a really tough. Yeah. But I think at the same time, like, yeah, I get I do see absolutely your point. Like I think most people, especially if they aren't Christians would say like yeah, that is like subservient or whatever. But I would also say it was like, like if I had someone who was an employee that was really busy, that had a lot of responsibilities, and there's a lot of things coming at them. And they said, hey, I need to just check in with you throughout my day so that I can make sure that I'm doing the most important things that I don't know how you want to, like, handle these situations, to have this moment. Then then I would be like, yeah, that does make sense, that, you know, that you would want to come and practice and learn how I think and get this advice, you know? And so you. Get a mental break, right, to sit with somebody that you respect, that you know, has your best interest in mind, hopefully. Right. In this analogy they do. Right. There's a lot of managers that don't obviously, but in this analogy they do. God's the best manager and and you know, sit and say, I know you want me to be successful. I know you want the best for me. You know, I you know, I know you want me to, build up, you know, for lack of a better term, this kingdom. So I'm gonna sit with you, have a mental break, get some peace, because, like, let's be honest, when you're a founder, when you're. And I'm finding this out, right? Like, I've had the side hustles in the past and then the e-commerce stuff and yada yada, but now I'm like, literally running a tech startup, right? And it it's a lot, as you know, as a founder, you know, and you've been doing this a lot longer than I have. Right. Like it's just a lot and it's exhausting and it's and it it can wear you down. Right. And so to be able to take that break and have that moment with God is refreshing. It's a refreshing moment as I taking that you're in the desert and you take that drink of that cold water, it's exactly what you needed for that moment, and you get re-energized, right? It's not just about, it's not just about I think a lot of times we can fall into the trap of doing the things that we feel like our, like the laws of the gospel, right? The prayer, the fasting, all those things. But all those things were made for the betterment of man that we should look at. Those are the ones that I get to have this conversation with the creator. I get to take a break and refresh myself and to have a moment with him. Have a moment with the Savior, and and then go about my day in that frame of mind. Because I don't know how you feel is like you wake up, you say your prayers, you do your thing, you do your closet thing, which is awesome for me. I wake up and I, I say my prayers. I read some scriptures right? And then throughout the day, that moment slowly dissipates. It doesn't follow throughout the day. Do you find when you set those reminders and you have those, you know, monastic moments right out of that, giving that time to God, it kind of resets your mind. Like you move forward in that framework. Again, is that what you find? It does. Yeah. It's kind of adding because it's it's shocking how quickly. Oh yeah. You know you forget it is just shocking. Yeah. Literally. And I think it's just it's like a habit of your mind. It just shows me how quickly like my mind gets off track. And so I do find that. Yeah, it really centers me. And there's, an analogy about this, Canning Dallas Willard, wrote about it, and his his analogy was like that, you know, this idea of your mind, like, drifting away from God is just a habit. And it's not like a law of gravity. And with time and training, you can train your mind to keep returning to God like a needle of a compass returns to the north. Right. It's just. And so you can just like. And that's, I think, what these things are designed to do, it's not like, oh, I need to do this because this is a spiritual checklist item that I need to do, but more like this is a this is training that is changing the kind of person that I am. Right? So like if I'm like, I think about it like if I'm the kind of person like, let's say I want to run a marathon, right? I do, I don't know. Why I would want to do that. Yeah. Like, you know, to be clear, I don't, you know, yeah, I, I, I run sometimes not because I like it, but because, you know, it enables me to do other things. My coach is running a marathon on Sunday actually, which is for his first one. So I think if I don't hear from you in a couple of days on. Oh, no, something bad happened, right? Yeah. By the side of the road. But, you know, it's like if I wanted to run a marathon like a I do believe that, like, I mean, right now, I could, I could absolutely. I can't run a marathon like, that's not within my capacity to do. I do believe that, like, yes, if someone laid hands on me and I was empowered by the Holy Spirit, like I could run a marathon and then some, right? But if I want to become the kind of person who can consistently run a marathon or in more spiritual stop, like if I want to be the kind of person who can consistently love difficult people, if I can be the kind of person who's consistently making decisions and trying to align with the will of God, then I need to consistently train to become the kind of person who's capable of doing that. And so I think when it comes to whether it's like spending time in prayer or this fixed hour thing or spending time silence Bible reading, whatever, it's not just like, oh, I'm supposed to do this because my pastor told me or, you know, like, this is but it's like I'm doing this because I, I know that just by putting myself through this training, I'm going to become the kind of person who's capable of doing the things that Jesus actually did. And like that, I actually can become the kind of person who's not bent out of shape when something goes wrong in my business. Yeah. And I can become the kind of person who can treat a difficult client with love and with compassion. I can be the kind of person who's not motivated by greed. You know all these things, right? But it's like, I'm not there yet, but there are things that I can do that are just like, they're indexing me. Kind of like that needle of the like, I'm kind of trained, that needle of the compass to go where it needs to go. Yeah. So that's the way that I think about it. And that's really insightful because all those things are for the betterment of your soul. But they also they better your business, right? Because they make you a better founder. They like loving difficult clients, right? Doing the right thing by them. That's only going to serve your business. And so I find it isn't. It's so interesting that the things that the Lord tells, you know, commands us to do the instructs us to do right, not only improve our soul, not approve our being, but they improve our lives. Even in what would the outside world, what would deem the secular things of owning a business, of taking care of clients, right, of being a friend or whatever it may be, the tenants, the gospel improve you and every facet. I was listening to a podcast the other day and a quote really stuck with me. I actually I have a I'm a whiteboard guy as a CEO, I have a whiteboard in my office and I write a whiteboard, and they were talking about, the practices of Christianity. And the guest said, I can't even remember the show. Now I'm spacing it. But the guest said, it doesn't matter what you're doing, it matters who you're becoming. And that's what you're talking about. Yeah. Doing things. You're becoming somebody through the grace and power of God and through the healing power of Jesus Christ, right through what he did on the cross. It is only possible through him to become those things. And that's what you're doing when you when you talk about those practices. Oh yeah, that is like that is 100% my that my frame of mind. And it's taken a long time right from getting to that, getting out of that mindset of like, I just need to do this because this is the right thing to do, or I feel obligated to do that. Right. But you just sort of ask myself, yeah, what kind of person am I becoming? Right? As a result of the habits in my life? And I think that is kind of the fundamental question. Yeah. If you ask. Every day, who am I becoming? Like, that's a, that's a pretty I mean, that's not an easy question to answer. I that's a really difficult I don't know who I, you know, you would need to take some serious time and more than likely serious time in prayer asking the Lord who because he knows better than obviously we do. He's omniscient, you know, and and saying, who am I becoming, Lord? Show me who I'm becoming. Am I on the path that you would deem for me to be right? That's, that's a question. Because that in and also answer the question, what kind of founder are you? You know, what kind of husband are you going to follow? Are you? Because if you put your discipleship like I talked about, the beginning is like the middle of that campfire or, you know, the gravitational pull, like, what's pulling you? What's that object pulling you into its orbit, right? If that's at the center, then you know you're on the right path and all those other facets, all those other parts of your identity, you know, you know, you're you are on the correct path. If you're on the back of of discipleship. Right? Yeah. I mean, that's really insightful. Like I had never thought about it that way, you know? But yeah, you said really? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's like it's funny too, because when I started asking myself that question, you know, I, I didn't always get answers that I liked. Right. You know. Magic, you know. Just sinner. Yeah. You know, you're like I mean, I've been I've been doing my own thing. Yeah. Right. For like ten years and which is nuts to me. That's crazy. But how are and I look at, you know, I was asking. How old are you now if you don't be asking. 35. Okay. Gotcha. So I started I started this in my 20s, you know, and that kind of built it up from there. And so, yeah, it's been ten years of like of, you know, running my own, I it's a digital agency that I. Yeah, we'll get into that. I definitely want to talk to specifically what you're doing. Yeah, yeah. Well, happy to talk about it, but yeah, it's been been ten years of doing that. And I've noticed that if like the some of the answers that I didn't like when I started asking myself, who have I been becoming over these last couple of years, rate of, being an entrepreneur is saying like, I feel like I've been, been striving harder and harder and harder and pushing myself more and more and more and being less and less gracious with myself over time. And I've like, I kind of feel more hardened. I feel like, you know, we sometimes you meet these, like, battle hardened executives that have been, you know, in the C-suite for 40 years. And they're just like they have a permanent scowl attached to their face. Yeah, I kind of went, you know, I feel like if I'm on this path, you know, in another 30 years, right? Like when I'm 65 and if I'm still doing this, like, I think all the wrinkles up here are going to, you know, I'm going to get all the wrinkles on my head or like, I'm going to have a frown. And and so I had to ask, sort of ask myself like, what are the habits that are contributing to me not being able to just turn that switch off for a bit. Right. And so I had to examine, like my habits of rest, you know, sleep boundaries, you know, around my work that's, you know, you hear. So much about, like, being obsessed and that there is no balance in entrepreneur entrepreneurship. Right. And I do fall in being a founder. Right. And I do fall into the camp of, like, balance probably isn't a thing. I always look at it as like, my fair analogy, like the plate spinning, like you've been to the circus and they have, like the plates on the sticks and they spin the plates. Right. And you're not really balancing. It's just when the plate gets wobbly, you spin that plate and the next get, while the next plate gets wobbling. You run to that plate and you spin it. That's how I view life. It's it's you're spinning the plate when it gets wobbly. So what? You know, what do I need to put my focus on essentially is with analogies, teaching the one plate that you can't ever let form break. There are plates that they will fall and they will break. I think there are two plates that you cannot allow your relationship with God and your relationship with your family. Those are the two that should never, ever. They maybe get wobbly, but they should never fall in break. The other ones can break it, they can be mended. And our relationship with God mended. You can really mess up your relationship with your family, right? I've seen it firsthand. Right. And so, I don't even know where I was going with that. Oh, yeah. No, I know, I, I, I hit on so many tangents, man. My ADHD kicks in on. But, anyways, you're talking about in a world where it's a you, there's only the one thing and it's only success. It is only the monetary value. It's only, you know, being wealthy and rich, all those things. And look, I one of the reasons I started our company is like, yeah, I want to make good money. Like, I'm not going to shit. Yeah, that you know what I'm saying. But for you, I think a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of founders outside of our mode of thinking would say, well, you just don't want it bad enough, then, you know, I'm saying because you, like, you need to give your all yourself to this thing. If you really want to be the billionaire or whatever it is, right? Yeah, totally. I think that, yeah, yeah. That mindset. It's it's it's an Instagram on. Right. Like you see it all the time on social media you know. Yeah man that I think for me you know for me like the thing that comes to mind is that, you know, the just like in Exodus, right? There's like, you know, Pharaoh and slavery and like, God rescuing his people out of this slavery. Right? I think that, like, the spirit of Pharaoh just doesn't live in Exodus. The spirit of Pharaoh is alive and well today. Right? Which says you can't take a break. You have to produce. There is no rest. Right? And the hustle culture, right. Hustle culture 100%. And it's like for me, I the question is how much is enough, right. What is enough? And I think I had to come to this place of saying, you know what? Like I have more than enough, right? What does it look like to live, you know, a godly life full of contentment, right? What is contentment look like in my life? And and actually having to realize that I don't think there's anything wrong with having more. Like, I strive to increase revenue in my company or strive to increase profitability. Yes. You know, and like, you're. Being a good steward of what you have, right? You're multiplying the talents by doing so. Yeah. It's. Yeah. We're not we're not saying do the opposite of that by any means. 100%. Yeah. And I so it's I don't think there's a sense of like coasting or like I don't care about those things, but those things are not determining my level of happiness in life. I'm not that my happiness in life is not contingent on how much money I make. And because I have decided it really is a decision, it honestly is the decision of saying if I did not make a penny more than I do right now, it would be enough. If I made less, I would be fine, right? Because I think that there's so there's it's such a trap to get into your to say, oh, I just need like I'm going to only be happy if I reach this certain status billionaire or whatever. Right. And I think that's what really drives so much of that hustle culture that that idea that I can't switch is that either I need more money or that in order to be liked and respected and accepted, I need to achieve a certain level of status. You know? And there's a lot of depressed millionaires out there, totally. You know, I'm saying I'm you see, I mean, I hate, it's sad, but you see, really, really, really wealthy people killing themselves, like, quite I mean, like, look, there's plenty of people that aren't wealthy doing that. You know, I think that there is a epidemic of lack of purpose and lack of identity and laugh, lack of self value. And I think that's directly correlated to the society's decrease in lack of faith and lack of relationship with God, I really do. But to go back to your it's there's even studies that say, I can't read the exact number that say it's 160 for this. It's somewhere around that's a hundred and 360. After a certain amount of usually your happiness does not increase. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And, like, look, I get it. It's it's, you know, I would much rather have money than not have money. Like, having money makes life at least like modern life ten times easier. Because you can get the groceries. You can go to the gas pump, right? Yeah. You do have to worry about your kids getting a meal, right? Like, I'm not saying that we both understand that. Right. But if you're happiness is directly tied to what your net worth is, you need to reevaluate your life pretty drastically. You know, like my. And I've been there, dude. Like, I mean, in my early 20s, I man, I was like, I need to produce, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was all of my career. I didn't want to get married. I didn't want like it was. I was like, I'm going to go and be the VP of sales for this company and do whatever it takes, yada, yada. And I was miserable, dude, I was miserable. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I was like, I was just overworked, I was tired, I was underappreciated, and I didn't like myself. I was out of shape, you know what I'm saying? Like, none of those things. It was only when I met my wife. And and I'm dating her, and I'm like, oh, this is really nice. Oh, like, going to church on there is nice. Oh, like, building this relationship with somebody that I really care about is important. And then you take that to an infinite scale with the ultimate being that loves us. Who is God? Yeah. How much more beneficial is that? How much more enlightening is that? How much more, weight is lifted when we build a kind of relationship with the Lord, you know? So. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it is. I, that has, you know, speaking of orbits or. Yeah, campfire analogy or whatever, right. We gotta find more analogies. Yeah, right. All this thing. Yeah. It's just like that way of thinking, the hustle culture, like. Yeah, that is like, that is one of the most. It's the easiest thing for me to slip into by far. Yeah. Right. Oh, yeah. So it's that. Like it's natural for founders to do that. Right. Because it's, it's yeah. You have to hustle to be a founder. I'm not saying don't hustle. Right. But there's the hustle culture which is a different ideology. Right. Yeah. 100%, which is like that's like you just have to do anything to succeed. And if you're not willing to do anything, then what is your worth? Right? What is your are you really worth anything? And so that's the up or out. You're saying that that people tie their identity into that hustle, like their value is directly correlated to, well, how much am I willing to give and do for this? Yeah, that's exactly right. That that that's that's it. Because if they if they fail in business then they fail in life. Right. And like I felt that way. Right. Like if my business fails then I and I am a failure. Right. What am I worth if I like, if I am not an owner of a business or I'm not successful in this way. Right. And so it's been a journey of just realizing, you know, what? Like, the business could fail at some point. And I have a lot of friends who love and respect me, who are not going to see me any differently. You know, if I made less money. I also have friends who just don't really care about it. Right. And so I'm certainly like literally part of it might be like I'm also now hanging I'm hanging out with different kinds of people. Right? If I'm hanging out with people who are status obsessed and don't hold the same values and are just, you know, evaluating me based on social signals and all these things like, that's very different because, yeah, if I do fail, like all of those relationships crumble. But I think that is the cool thing about being a part of like a solid church community with friends who are in life with you because they like you as a person and they're invested in you as a person, not just. They don't care what you do. Right? Like, you know, like I said, I was talking about the, you know, the individual that leads our congregation and, yeah. And he's just like, like he took interest in what I did because he cares about me. But it didn't. And he was asking lots of questions because, you know, we're an AI based company, which is very, you know, the hot topic right now for sure. You know, and and, but it but he it didn't change his perception of me. He's like, oh that's just what he it's it's what he does. It's not who he is. Right. Like that's you know, what you do with with Brooks Digital, that's what you do. Is that who you are? Yeah. Right. And to the founders out there, I think that's a really important because I fell into that a lot, a lot because I wanted to be a founder since I was a sophomore in college. Dude, I knew that's what I wanted to do, right? Yeah. And I had done the little thing, you know, I'd done little things. I said, side hustle stuff, but I just wasn't ready for that moment. I'm, you know, I started, you know, how it goes to 30. I'm 31 now. Right? So, it's, you know, it took me a lot, you know, longer than I thought it would. Right. But, but I think one of the lessons I learned along the way, one of the things that, you know, the Lord probably wanted me to know was you. You were. You were doing this thing. You were not this thing, right? It doesn't I don't care. I mean, the Lord cares if you know he wants us to be successful. He wants us to enjoy our lives and be full of joy. And, you know, amongst the hardships that we will all inevitably, you know, experience. Right? But like the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Like it's cool that we get to do this, you know what I'm saying? It's cool that we get to build something that we enjoy and actually get to do something with our lives while we're here that we enjoy doing right. But at the end of the day, in the grand scheme of things, it just doesn't matter, man. It really doesn't. And I think when you take that pressure off yourself and say what I am as a child of God, what I am is a divine creation, that if I so choose to join Christ and be joint heirs with him, right when I am as a husband and father, who I am as Jamie Kane, right? Like that's like that is who I am, you know, and being a founder is a part of what I do, and I take pride in that. And I'm happy about that. And I am grateful for that. And I'm a steward over everything that has been given to me. But I will not let it definitively define who I am as a person. I don't know how you feel about that, but. Totally. I think that is the funny thing is, when you can get to that place, then it actually has a positive impact on your work. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I think one of the things just to like, pull out a more concrete benefit of that is that when I'm not super tied up in this business, has to succeed or make this much money because I need it to, is then when I'm working with my team as an example, I can show up as this non anxious presence. Yeah. Totally. Right where I'm not like suddenly feeling like I need to drive them forward because I need to see a certain result for myself. Right. And that all that trickles down. So when they can come to me and they can be in my presence and, you know, sometimes, like I'm going to be the only Bible they ever read in a way, right, right, right. You know, they're not going to know who got it. They're not going to know who Jesus is or what he's like, except through, like just sitting in a room with me and like. Yeah, they don't know you. They should know me through you. Right? Like that is a biblical teaching. Yeah. I don't 100%. Yeah. Like that I think about, like, the fragrance of Christ. Right. Like sitting in the room, like, and so, like, being there and being able to sit and not, like, being feeling like I need to pressure someone or demand results. Like, I can be honest and say, hey, like, I don't think we're doing really well here. And if this if we don't change this and this is going to be the consequence, and I don't think we either want either of us want this to happen, right. It doesn't mean that I'm permissive or, you know, that I'm not willing to address, issues or ask for results. But I think the way in which I show up changes when I'm not, when I don't feel like my entire sense of self-worth depends on winning. Do you feel like then that's because, like, if your entire identities wrapped up into being a founder, right? Your entire identities being like. And if I feel of this and I means I'm, I'm a failure, I'm worthless, I don't matter because the businesses doesn't exist anymore, right? Yeah. You know, it. I don't know how you operate that way. It's like being an employee and knowing that, like, your manager or your boss is rolling over with an iron fist. And if you get one thing wrong, you're going to be fired. You know what I'm saying? It's like you're walking on eggshells all the time, right? There's no way. I mean, I've worked for businesses like that where it's, you know, you're just one month away. You're one this quote away from Pip. Right? And it's just like, how do you go out and perform like that? I was just going to job like sales where you feel all that pressure. No one wants to buy from a desperate salesperson. They can call a desperate salesperson from a mile away. Right. And it's the same thing with a founder. If your entire idea and your self-worth is wrapped in this, how much more pressure and angst and like weight do you feel where if your identity is where it's supposed to be, which is, you know, we were having this conversation with nation, my producer. I can call you that, right? Yeah, totally. That's that sounds so cool. My producer. But we were having a conversation off air, and we were talking about how, you know, you know, essentially what you now say. I lost my train of thought. Again, that happens, although we're talking about what I did. What was I just saying? Can you remind me he don't remember it? Yeah. Anyways, it'll come back to me, but, you know, anyways, going back to the self-worth thing, like, it's all pent up. You feel this weight, and then you you take that off yourself. How much better do you perform? Because you, you you don't feel is like. Like I have to do this. No, I get to do this, I get, I get I have this opportunity and I'm grateful for that. That not that I'm now I'm not scared to lose it. Right. I'm excited to multiply it. Right. It's it's such a different framework. So I yeah I'm going off on a tangent now. But yeah you get what I'm saying. No, you're totally good, man. Yeah. I I think that's been an unexpected blessing. And like, the thing is, you know, when you're, you're running your own business, you're a founder or entrepreneur or whatever, there's so many things that are on your plate, like my to do list is always bigger than the time that I have. And that and it's just this constant struggle. There's, you know, there's weight, there's sometimes you have issues with your staff, sometimes you have issues with sales, sometimes you have issues with we have to like sales are too much. How are we going to meet to meet? Like, it's just like I realized over time there is never like this. There's always just something that you're you're running to, right? It's like, yeah, you know. Right. It's it's just at least in my world, it's a. Treadmill, right? It just never ends. There's no. Other trail. Yeah. You're just sort of like it's the whac-a-mole thing. You hit like one, you know, hit one more than another. One pops up after that. There you go again. Another analogy. Let's try. That whac-a-mole. But, you know, like, all of that is just like the reality of the day to day. And I don't know, after doing this for ten years, it's like and being a dad and being like heavily involved in church and like ministry stuff and like which themselves, those things are burdens of care just outside of work, right? Yeah. And it's just like doing it for that long is, you know, it is like a, it's a, it's a slog to carry all that stuff all the time. And so I found that over time, like, I if I'm going to actually do this and not just throw my hands up one day and be like, dude, I gotta burn this thing into the ground and go, you know, get a job at Starbucks or something, just like, you know, schlepping coffees or whatever. Actually, I yeah, I shouldn't say that. That would actually be pretty fun. But you know what I mean? Like, just some job where, like, I don't, you know, I don't really want to think or deal with any problems. I just want to do, like, you know, you know, be. Told what to do, right? Yeah. Just somebody tell me what to do. Yeah. You know, I get bored after, like, two weeks, but, yeah, I think all that. Yeah, it really forced me to examine, like, how am I carrying myself in the day to day meaning, like, am I tying my self-worth to this? Am I resting? Right? Like, one of the things that I started doing a couple of years ago is taking like a proper 24 hour Sabbath. And I don't think this is like a, you know, I'm not saying like, you got everyone's got to take a Sabbath because that's like biblically mandated, but it's more of like, I feel like that has been a gift. Where? Yes. Friday at 5 p.m., I'm like, dude, signing off slack, signing off email. Like, put my phone in, Do Not Disturb for 24 hours. Like, I don't have any chores around the house. I'm not running errands or whatever. Like I'm just chilling, you know, with my family sometimes I invite some, like friends from church over and we have like a dinner together or like, sleep for ten hours, you know, maybe go on a hike or something, whatever. And just, like, hang out with my family, you know, and then like, by the end of that, it's just sort of like, okay, cool. Like I'm in a better place, you know? And I've had series like Seasons of Business where it's just been like, if I hadn't had that weekly Sabbath, like I would have lost my mind. Like, yeah, there's just times where I've like, the stress has been so high, right? And or there's been such like, you know, just seasons or like months where it's just been like, man, every week is just a grind, like just a grind. And I know, like, this is going to pass. But like, what's getting me through this week is knowing that Friday at five, I'm passing out and like, I have that 24 hours where I can be like a come back to it, you know? And so I don't know, that's been like that's been you're. Never and you're never going to like, you're never going to sink your business by respecting the Sabbath. Right. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Right. And I don't I just don't feel like I go, I can't, you know, like in the I'm sure in those times and seasons you're like, I, I shouldn't take it. There had to be the temptation. I shouldn't take the day off. I should just like I got to work that week. I got too much to do. I'm feeling that now, you know? And anytime I sit down and relax or have a moment with my wife or kids, I. It's like I almost feel guilty because I should be doing something for the business, you know? And but you're never going to you're never going to lose out because you take the Sabbath seriously. You keep it holy, right? Like it is. There's a specific reason that God took a day of rest. It wasn't because God knew the rest, it was that he was setting the example for his creation to take that day, knowing that his creation needed it. Right? Yeah. So I think that's really, you know, we've we've we talked a lot about kind of like a serial things, I guess, for lack of a better term, just kind of like very, you know, philosophical things. But, you know, as far as practical advice goes, I think just to kind of recap, it's you know, you know, you will have more success when you don't put all of your, value and your identity into being a founder. Right? They it's it's a it is what you do. It's not who you do. You know, taking time to be with the Lord in prayer, in meditation. Right. In contemplation, which I think, you know, refreshes you, resets you. Recalibrates you ever you want to put that right? And then also taking the Sabbath seriously. Right. And and taking that day of rest for yourself. Is there anything I missed there as far as practicality? No. I mean, I think you hit the the nail on the head, man. I think it is just about like. Yeah, the what? Like I kind of ask myself, like, those are specific examples that I've incorporated in my life as a result of like the question of who am I becoming and how do I need to change my my, how I spend my time on a daily and weekly basis in order to be become a person who is more loving, who is becoming a person who's kind and, you know, becoming more like Jesus. Right? And so I think those and those, those are always they should very practical answers to all of those things. Right. That involve like, when am I going to schedule a reminder on my phone to do this thing? And I think, yeah, for me, absolutely, it has been like time in silence and contemplation. You know, I, I'm generally a more introverted type of person. So like, I mean, I love having these conversations, but also like, I mean, you don't have to be an introverted person. I think everyone needs to have those times. But anyway, like that's something for me that's helpful, right? The fixed our prayer like Sabbath time. Along with the Lord is good for I'm very extroverted, right? But time along with the Lord is like a it recharges the battery, you know? And that's what we want the faithful founder to be. I, I tend to be a more philosophical individual in my conversations with people, but I do want we want this to be practical, right? And it's not just for the audience. It's also for me. Right? Like in this new start of my journey, that guy, I, I want to take these things and apply them to my own life. Right. And so but I do want to get into a little bit civically about, you know, what you do. So, you are the founder of Brooks Digital, which is a digital agency focused on helping, nonprofits optimize their online presence. Is that correct? Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly right. We do specifically a lot of work with nonprofits that focus on like, diseases or disorders. Okay, I see that. Yeah. Okay. Health, profits. Okay. But like, yeah, we also do work with nonprofits in general. Yeah, a lot of it is related to their their website in their online presence. Gotcha. How did you get into that? Yeah, yeah I'll try to keep this short. It is a long story. I might have said the wrong time. Now you're going to do, Yeah. So, you know, I kind of backed my way into it is the short and long of it. You know, I started, like, I started the business in my 20s. At the time, I was basically in bands like I mentioned earlier, I played drums, and so I was in, like series of different bands, you know, like, yeah, I either, mostly like Christian bands, Christian artists, stuff like that. And the. Bands were, you know. I think the closest that I could say is that I was in a Christian rock band that was produced by the guitar player from skillet. Oh, that's pretty sick. Yeah. There you go. So I was basically in school, you know, that's what I was. Say, skillet adjacent right. Skillet adjacent. Right. So I got some jams, man. Let's go. It was great, man. Yeah, it was very, as I recall, a desk, A Barbara was, he was a guitarist for, I'm really into Christian metal, and, he was a guitarist in a Christian metal band. They played with guys like Underoath, as in a Christian band anymore. But he played like, older guys, like, Under Oath and knew the guy, the lead singer from Bless the Fall and stuff like that. So yeah. Super cool. Anyways, yeah. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. That's and like that's kind of my space. But anyway, you know, when you're, when you're a musician like you just you don't make a lot of money. So I'm like, man, what marketable skill do I have other than playing drums that I could use to, you know, get 100 bucks to buy food or something. And I was like, well, you know, I went to school for like, computer science and stuff like that. So I'm like, I can program websites. So I just kind of started doing freelance work on the side. Well, I was in a band and then, you know, you fast forward a few years, you know, I, I got more serious with my, girlfriend, you know, my wife and, you know, so I was like, I need a more stable thing that's not having me on the road so much. And so I basically made that decision to, like, I need to put my time and energy in growing, like, this freelance thing, which then kind of got to the point of like, I don't have enough time to service all these clients. So I started, you know, hiring contractors and stuff to help. And then, you know, I over time, I decided to continue to niche down. At the beginning, I was just doing that work for anyone. I happen to get a lot of nonprofit clients because, like, I had connections in the church and ministry space, and there tends to be a lot of people in the church who are working in, in non-profits. So I noticed, hey, a lot of the clients that I've been working with are nonprofit. So I'm going to start to focus and market and structure services around them. And then, you know, I also have a I have a brother who's, disabled, and so, you know, he's like, I and that's a whole separate story, right? But, you know, he is, you know, like, he is in a wheelchair and, you know, like, I've been a family member of someone with a rare disease. Right. And so I think in particular, I noticed, hey, there's, this subsection of nonprofits that focus on helping people with diseases and disorders and stuff like that, you know, with a focus on, like, hey, like, accessibility as an example, right? Like, you know, one of the services that we provide is like, how can you make your website accessible to those people with disabilities? So I kind of blended, you know, here's my values. Like I kind of had this three fold way of niching down where I was like, what are like what is my story and my experience lending me like the story with like, okay, yeah, with my brother, what is my network sending me? Like, what is my background? And then also just looking at like what vary from a business perspective where the majority of my clients. Right. Yeah. I would I sort of triangulated all these. I'm like, oh yeah, a nonprofits in the health space is kind of like the, the thing that I feel like it's, that the prism focus the light onto. So. Yeah. So anyway, I made that, you know, I made that positioning decision a couple of years ago, probably 20, 20, to really niche down into that. So, yeah, that's the long and short of it. Yeah. Well, do you find, too? I know for me, it's not like like you work your butt off, right? When you're a founder, you know what I'm saying? And and you shouldn't. You have to. But I also found that, the. When I knew that I was doing the right thing, like, I felt inspired to start help girls. Right? I really like a lot of the things that came to me. You know, just were things I, I feel very strongly that did not come from my own mind. Right. And then when I started following that path, the doors opened and like I said, not that I wasn't working hard, I was, but I've worked hard before and doors haven't opened or working or. And it wasn't just one door. It was door after door after door to door after work. Right. Did you feel like that with with Brooks Digital that you once you that you said you use your word triangulated right where you were did the doors open? Yeah. You know, I think it was I've, I've been in that situation before, by the way, where it's like there have been absolutely times in Brooks Digital where I've, like, been hammering against a specific door, and that hasn't worked. But I will say that, yeah, the when I have paid attention to like what is happening in my like not only the question of like, what is God doing? But like also what what do our clients actually want? Like in business, they'd be like, what is the market asking of me? What is the market demand? But I think there's a lot of that of you know, whenever I feel like I've hit a door that I just can't you open, it's usually because I've been like, I've created it myself, you know? But I think part of it has honestly just been this combination of being observant and trying to listen to say, okay, like, here's where I've noticed, like the kinds of clients and projects that we've been most successful and helping that have been the most profitable, that they've been the most happy. And usually all of those things end up. I'm like, these are the same projects, right? The projects where I end up like, oh, we made a ton of money on this project. The client was insanely happy with the work, right? And I'm like, I would easily do this one again. It's like, oh yeah, all of these point to the same type of work. So and in that sense, yes, those are that that's where it's like I need to just kind of find that path through it. Dude, the reason I asked that question is typically because there's a lot of founders I know for my silver, like, prospective founders that they know they want to be a founder, they know they want to launch a startup, you know, but they don't know, like, for me, for a long time, I just do. I just want to have a startup. I didn't know where or I didn't know who I wanted to serve. And, and that's, I guess why I asked that question is I have found I don't want to say that I fell into this, but it was my experience through the SAS industry that led me to the idea of help ghost. And then once I felt like, oh, there's something here, I started exploring and more. The door started open, right? And so I guess my question is for prospective founders that don't know exactly what they want to do, what would you say to them? Like they know they want to start a business, but they don't know where to go, who to serve or what. Really. They're maybe they don't know what their expertise is. And a lot of people feel that way, you know? Yeah, yeah, I think I'd have to say that like you, my advice would be to to really follow something that that excites you. I've had like, as an example, like very early in Brooks Digital, I had what I considered to be a fairly strong, unique, angle on how I could, like, develop service and positioning. And, there was a, there's a trend around, a concept called green web design, right? Where it's like measuring the carbon footprint of a website. And I went, well, okay, there's a lot of eco conscious brands that might be interested in being able to quantify, measure and reduce the carbon footprint of their website and then be able to market that. It's like part of their brand. Sure. And which was kind of like I was like, oh, that's a cool, interesting idea. Like there's been some people talking about it. And I went, you know, that like, that's interesting to me. Like, that made a lot of business sense. But at the end of the day, I didn't find myself, like passionate or excited about that. And so I was like, I would find myself sitting at my desk like, this is a great idea, why am I not doing anything about it? And I went like, this is like on paper, all of this is awesome. But that's not really like, I'm just not excited about this. Yeah, you don't have the fire for it. Yeah. And but I think it's you know, I've found that when I'm, when I latch on to an idea that it's just like, it's very easy for me to just start sitting down and I want to put in the work and I want to sit there like, and I'm willing to jump over hoops and obstacles to be able to, to make that happen. And I'm not waiting for stuff to be handed to me. I'm like, I think that's so important because when you're trying to create something out of nothing, which is really what founding, you know, any sort of like a startup business, whatever it is, it's just it's it's like a lot of it's a lot of work to do that. And so if you're not, if you're not like me and I'm passionate about this idea, I really love this. And I like I want I find fulfillment and working on this. Then it's going to take so long to plant the seed. Like it's kind of like the law of sowing and reaping. That's the way that I think about a lot of stuff in business is like, there's so much work that you have to do. It's to so, so, so, so, and then in time you reap that. And if you're not passionate enough about an idea or if it doesn't resonate with you deeply enough that you're, like, willing to be like that farmer who's just like seeding, watering, weeding with literally nothing above the surface and just being like, I'm going to be here for months, just like doing the same. Thing every day. Right? And then all of a sudden, like, you start to see stuff sprout and and grow, right? But the critical thing is like, if if you're not all in on this certain idea and you're don't find fulfillment in just that process of sowing, then you're most people are just going to walk away before they reap anything out of that. And so I think that would probably be the number one thing. It's like, you know, in that process, just because you're passionate about something doesn't mean it's a great business idea. Sure. But. Right. You checked several boxes, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I think yeah. I couldn't agree more, man, because it's, Yeah. If you just don't have the fire every day to do those things because most of entrepreneurship, what I found most of being a founder, there's a lot of boring. Yeah. Pretty just this sucks, man. But yeah, it's weird, man, because it doesn't feel like it's boring. Like, it's just like there has been times, man, where it's just like this tedious, you know, work I got to put together and put together our, you know, our business model or I'm putting together our, you know, our outreach strategy or, you know, whatever else. And those things may be boring to other people, but, I mean, I'm putting together our UX mapping, right? Like our user experience about like what that's going to look like the user interface. And we were in that meeting for that was in the very beginning. And we were in that meeting for like 4.5 hours with my dev team, and I could have gone another six, like I was just in it, man. Like I was excited to be there, you know? And anybody else looking for the out. So I was like, they're just in there eating like mints and on a whiteboard, you know, because we were just in like a workspace, you know, and, like, like, what are those things called? The. Co-Working space, the. Co-Working spaces? Yeah, we were in a co-working. And so they had the they had like a Life Savers white mint on the table and all the food court. And I'm just, like, crushing these white mints, you know, and just talking. And I could have been there forever. I could have in there for three days. Dude, I just love that. And that's to me, that's because that fire that like, that's like, this is what I want to do. I'm excited about the purpose. I'm excited about the mission vision, what we're going to do, who we're going to serve, how we're going to better. I feel like our, you know, industrial community, right, I guess, or, you know, the the community within the industry that we're serving. So I couldn't agree more any of that. I do want to ask one final question before we close up. Yeah, I'm really appreciative of your time. And so, nation puts this, packet together. This, this prep packet to understand who you are and everything and helps me come up with some starter questions, which is, is super helpful. We haven't asked any of them today, so I, you know, I'm pretty actually happy about that. But there is one that I wanted to ask you. And it's how can faith based leaders and founders balance innovation with staying focused on their spiritual and social missions? Yeah. You know, I'm not sure like my initial reaction to that question is that those things don't necessarily have to be at odds. And what I mean by that is that, you know, sometimes I feel like when I think about innovation, I think about people who are pushing the envelope, who are doing things that are different, who are doing things that might be like people haven't seen before. And so I think, honestly, if you're a founder who is following Jesus, who is, you know, trying to put yourself in that mindset of like, I'm this isn't my own kingdom, that you're going to be thinking about problems and things that in a completely different way from most other people. Right? So you're just going to be like you're orbiting a different you know, I'm just using all of my same analogies, right? I'm going to throw them all into this answer. You're like literally orbiting a different planet in a way. Right. And so I think as a result, right, that naturally you're like the things that are going to come out of paying attention to what God is doing are going to be innovative things. Right. If I think about the early church as an example, that was just a radically different way of showing up in the world, right? Where, you know, it's like all of a sudden the they're doing quote unquote innovative things like treating all their possessions as equal, like selling land, giving money to people, you know, like literally, you know, there's. Like starting in hospitals, right? Yeah. Looking at marriage is a thing to uphold and respect. Right? Yeah. Those are rules were radically different in the Western world. Yeah, 100%. And like those things now are like taken for granted. But the world like the the ripple effect of following Jesus wholeheartedly, like just turned that early world like it just turn it upside down, right? Yes. And so my belief is really that like, the same is true today as it was in the early church. Like if you're following Jesus wholeheartedly in like, everything that you do is subservient to him, that like that, you're going to make waves and those things are going to be different. They're going to be like innovative people are going to notice that you're doing things in a way that isn't normal. And so I think. Actually mean to that. If you're it's just innovation. It's just like an outpouring of that. It's just going to be a natural byproduct that's going to come out of you if you actually are serious and you're doing the stuff that Jesus said to do. So I love, that's the best answer. I got nailed that. Yeah, I wouldn't have had any idea how to answer that question. So you knocked it out of the park. That's, one of my. I am a, nerd of early Christian history. Like the early church, the first and second century. You know, I just it sounds like you're super familiar with that as well. And just the impact that it had on the world. And like you said, we take things for granted today where it's like the idea that everybody is created equal, that everybody has inherent worth. That was not how the world operated 2000 years ago. Right. But anyways, you said something that, you know, you'll make waves. And I find it so interesting because the parallel is that look at the waves that Christ made. Yeah, right. Like God himself entered into the world, right? His own creation as a homeless Vegas bond. Right. And changed everything. I mean, people today because they measure it through the lens of like Western Christianity and, and like the kind of the modern church. Right. And, you know, and the, the, the 1950s vision of the white picket fence and, you know. Yeah. And they just view it through that lens. They don't realize how radical like the Christian movement was, right? They don't realize the thousands of Christians that were martyred for their beliefs, that there was a resurrected Lord who was God, right. And his God, you know, and they forget about that, that radical notion, that and that innovation that took place because of Christianity. And so I think something for us to land on here is that as a founder, in order to be successful, you have to be innovative, right? And know that you were following the most innovative path that has ever been tread, which is the way of the truth and the life. Who is Jesus Christ. So, ladies and gentlemen, thank you for listening in. Big thank you to for Spencer Brooks for coming on the show, man. You're awesome dude. And just yeah, thank you for your time. It really means a lot. Yeah, it was a great conversation. Jamie. Thanks for having me on, man. Yeah, for sure. All right. We'll catch you all later.