Episode 032 Interview with Matthew Sharpe about Spiritual Abuse

In this episode, Scott sits down with Matthew Sharpe for an honest and thoughtful conversation about spiritual abuse in the church. Together, they explore what spiritual abuse is, how it can take root in Christian communities, and the lasting impact it has on individuals and congregations.

Matthew brings clarity and compassion to a difficult topic, helping listeners recognize both subtle and overt forms of manipulation, control, and misuse of authority. The conversation also moves beyond diagnosis to pastoral response—offering practical and theological insights on how the church can faithfully care for those who have been wounded.

Importantly, Scott and Matthew also address the often-overlooked question: how should we minister to those who have caused harm? With wisdom and nuance, they discuss the difficuty to develop pathways toward accountability, repentance, and restoration—without minimizing the pain of victims.

Whether you’re a church leader, a ministry volunteer, or someone seeking healing, this episode invites you into a deeper understanding of grace, truth, and the kind of community the church is called to be.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hey everyone, welcome back to the podcast. This is Scott. I'm gonna be your host uh again today. Hey, we have a special guest with us today. Um, Matthew Sharp is back with us. We did a previous podcast together. You want to say hi, Matt?

SPEAKER_04 0:24

Hi, Matt. Couldn't resist.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

I kind of teed that one up for you.

SPEAKER_04 0:29

You did. That's okay. I'll always swing at that one. Good to see you. How you been?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Yeah, I'm doing great, man. How about you? Um, why don't you just take a second and remind everybody about uh who you are, what you're up to, what God's got going on in your life.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

Yeah, so a couple of hats. Uh, I've been busy with all of them. I am an ordained pastor, which is always great fun. Get to preach in different places. My full-time job right now is I am a licensed professional counselor, psychotherapist in private practice in Muskegon, keeping busy with that. And then I'm also a performing stand-up comedian. And people ask, what does that have to do with anything else? Like, well, because both of those other jobs are really funny. So I don't know. It's it's been great and been keeping busy with a lot of shows and a lot of uh kind of combined events at churches. We're just out uh we're calling it the Tundra Tour. We went to South uh Sioux Falls, South Dakota, and got to do about three different shows out there over spring break, which is uh if you're gonna go somewhere south for spring break, I recommend South Dakota because nothing says summer like like South Dakota.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

No, that sounds great, man. Um sounds like God's got a lot of things that he's doing with you guys in your ministry right now. That's really cool. Yeah. Um, how about books? Uh now last time you're here, we talked a little bit about your book, which was called From My Throne to His. Did I get it right?

SPEAKER_04 1:50

Yes, you did. From My Throne to His. And that's I still love uh love that book, love putting it out there. And and for those who don't know, I literally Googled uh what are the most awkward, uncomfortable, confusing Bible passages out there, and I wrote a devotional on each one because because normally as Christians we tend to just don't that doesn't make sense, skip over and go to the happy parts that I like and can put on a coffee mug or something. And so I just said, no, let's look at all the verses that don't make any sense and just look at them. And some of them are hilarious and some of them are awkward, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

And so you got to put them there for a reason.

SPEAKER_04 2:22

They did, and so we we yeah, we made a devotional about that one. And um I'm currently finishing up the editing, my first draft of a book that right now will be tentatively titled The Jester: Building Resilience Through Humor. I do a lot of corporate speaking for different agencies, and I kind of combine the worlds of psychotherapy and comedy as a way of building resilience in people. And so this is a book that would go along with some of my uh keynotes and presentations and workshops that people can grab and take with them. So it's it'll be fun.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

Dude, I'm I definitely want to get that when it comes out because like I know of no other people that do everything that you do that you've been called to do with that combination. You're like uh unicorn in in the ministry world.

SPEAKER_04 3:09

I like to say rhinoceros, a little heavier than a unicorn, but still kind of unique.

SPEAKER_01 3:13

So no, totally cool, man. I uh I just love it. Um so you've got a few things that are on your heart today, and um there are also some things that I have on my heart, and I know that um absolutely they're gonna be on the hearts of many of our listeners as well. So, where should we go in our conversation? What what do you see God doing um in your practice? What's going on um with some of the things that you're observing?

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Well, in in private practice right now, due to my credentialing both as a counselor and a pastor, I've sort of landed in the world of helping people recover from spiritual abuse. And and that's always a tricky one. Yeah. Trying to make make sense of that with people because uh and it happens everywhere. And so I have a lot of people right now on my caseload that are dealing with some form of spiritual abuse or spiritual trauma or some sort of wounding from a church or a church leader or a church system of some kind. And so trying to help them kind of heal their wounds and find what does faith look like after uh they've, you know, many of them grew up in, just like most of us did, we grew up in a church environment. We uh went to church, loved Jesus, sang the songs, you know, did the crafts and the motions at VBS, and then uh something happens and why we walk away for a variety of reasons.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah. I know that like that's an interesting term. I don't know if I've ever heard it called spiritual abuse, but it's uh it's apt, it's a good fit for a lot of the things that are going on behind the scenes, and I I think many people that take a look at the church from the outside, they're incredibly aware of some of the scandals that go on and some of the things that um sometimes get swept under the rug. And but I I think the other side of that is though there are a lot of us who as pastors are deeply concerned about how do we help people that have been through that because we see the broken coming into our churches um very skittish, if for lack of a better word. Yes. And um as shepherds, we want to know how to love them and help them as well. Um so it sounds like that's what you're seeing too.

SPEAKER_04 5:39

Yeah, and I see it from both sides. I've seen uh you know pastors who've come in who have been either let go from a church or had a conflict uh due to leadership styles, and and more I see the the people who would identify as uh victims or people in recovery or healing wounds uh inflicted by churches. So yeah, it's it's good that it's on our hearts and minds as pastors, and so that's important.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So, like, do you see different categories of people that have been hurt in different ways, or what would be some examples of kind of the folks that you're you're trying to help?

SPEAKER_04 6:14

Yeah, I think you know what I'm what I'm seeing, there's probably kind of two big categories. Uh the first one is probably I would say the easiest to recognize and and the hardest to work through just because of the scope. And that that's when there's actually a a crime or an actual abuse. Um we've had a lot of churches in the news for different um you know sexual assaults or crimes that have been taking place because of church leaders. Um so obviously that's an abuse issue, that's a mandatory reporting issue. And and it's tough because I've talked to so many people who have either been the victim of sexual abuse in church, uh either in the building or because of a church leader, or have known someone who was abused uh by a volunteer or a church leader, and it it's actually very painful to me how few churches follow through on their mandated reporting.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

Yeah, yeah, that's a tough one. Dude, that you you're hitting it there too, because I think on the one hand, people may think that you have um as a pastor, you have a a client privilege where you can keep all that stuff safe, but many don't realize that. No, like um, if I have somebody come into my office and counsel me about an abusive situation, or especially with a minor, I'm gonna get on the phone like that day and report it. And um that's what we are obligated morally, spiritually, ethically to do. And legally. And legally. We forget that.

SPEAKER_04 7:45

The the state code in Michigan where we're sitting right now is written, and most states have it, where we have clergy privilege, uh, but that does not extend to uh child abuse that is happening right now. Whether it's you know, because of one of our people in a church situation or just in general, if we suspect child abuse, we are mandatory reporters. It's not a well, I think I will, no, I will. I have to do that. Yeah. And uh I'm sure I have no doubt that in the near future we'll see, as we saw with with other denominations, uh we'll see people who are suing their churches for not reporting adequately. And they'll they'll win, you know, because um we as church leaders, we don't like the fact that the people that we lead and shepherd could also be perpetrators, you know, and or that those of us who are shepherds are the perpetrators ourselves. And so it's that's a tough conversation, man. But the the absolute need is if there is even not even actual abuse, suspected abuse. Yeah, we have to call.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah, that's that's a great point, right? Yeah, it's not like we need to see the evidence first. If we just hear it or suspect it, we gotta re man that report to do so. One of the um one of the other things though is like it's not good for anybody. Like, even if you're not in a church that has a sexual abuse allegation, like it it's all faith-based ministries to get a black eye when this stuff happens and when we see it go public as well. And so I think we just need to kind of lock arms together and and try to unravel what's really going on here and to help people as much as we can. Um when you see folks that come in that have been victims of um this first category that we're talking about, what's a good way to begin to help the healing process? To believe them. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:40

I mean, just first and foremost, because the for anyone who has been you know sexually abused, that is a trauma. That there's trauma therapy that is needed and care and restoration, and the what that trauma does to a person's self-concept, um, very few of us unless you've experienced it, can understand that. But when it's a spiritual component, I've heard there's there's well, we would say there's a lot of gaslighting as well, where where people will say, Well, the that perpetrator, he would never do something like that, or she would never do something like that. Um or there would be some discrediting of the person who is the victim. And so my my starting point is like I don't know if you're telling me the truth. I don't know what really happened. I wasn't there, but I will believe everything you tell me. And and then pretty quickly for me, I I obviously we're not on video right now, people can't see me. I'm I'm a physically large man. And so I I very quickly, at least even as a therapist, bring in, hey, I'm I'm a big dude. And if you're not comfortable talking to a guy who's physically big, I'm a pastor, yeah. I want to be a safe place for you, a presence for you. Yeah, and if that's not okay, I totally understand. I've got some amazing female colleagues who do amazing work with trauma. I'm happy to introduce you and just be out of the out of the picture completely because I don't need to be here. I need you to get better.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

No, that that's an important thing that you're mentioning right there, too, because we have to be a safe place for people where um they can feel like they can be trusted, and that's the foundation of um the the way that we help and the way that we believe them. And many of us we have rules in place that like I won't counsel another female one-on-one with a closed door, like either we'll have another woman come in here, or if it's um a good situation, we'll just have women outside the office or whatever that looks like. But we take um safeguards to be able to protect people as well. Yep. So once we um begin to develop um a foundation of trust and security in the relationship, and we begin to counsel them, what are you seeing that like kind of helps people come to an understanding of of what to do from there?

SPEAKER_04 11:59

Well, one of the um besides the trauma work, which that's a of course, you know, you asked me at the beginning, do you want water? And of course, now I'm like, uh I'm good. It sounds like I've been smoking for 30 years. Don't mind me, folks, it's allergy season. But um, no, after we get past that point of just saying, I'm gonna believe you, uh, there's another very important uh step, at least for me, is to recognize I don't need my client to leave therapy with my belief system.

SPEAKER_01 12:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 12:28

You know, because if if I have been hurt by a church, the what makes it so painful, what makes spiritual abuse different than just regular emotional abuse or uh a verbal abuse of some kind is that we feel like God, the the victims often feel like God is on the side of the abuser because we as the spiritual leaders will use words like God said you know, God God's word says you have to do what I say, and then then follow that by doing something horrific, whatever the case may be. And so there's so a lot of the words that we use to speak hope and healing in people's lives, you know, redemption, salvation, uh, love, um God bless you, God loves you. Those are also words that have been used in a power imbalance to coerce people's behaviors in unhealthy churches. And as a result, the words that I would use as a pastor to bring healing have been used as a weapon against the victim. And so so I have to be able to say, like, you might not leave this office as a Christian, but that that's your choice. And I I obviously I want everyone to believe in Jesus and spend eternity with him, of course. At the same time, I'm gonna respect that you might not be there right now because of what's been done to you. Right. And I've had clients who have walked away from faith, deconstructed completely. I've had people who've walked away from faith, deconstructed, and then reconstructed. And and just walking with them in a place where I'm not projecting my desire for them to have a relationship with Jesus. I'm just loving and accepting them as they are, saying, Hey, you're you're not cool with Jesus right now. I get that. Yeah. Somebody with his name, you know, on his someone with Jesus' name on their jersey hurt you. Yeah. I'm not gonna tell you you gotta like him because of what this other person did.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

That that's really smart, you know. And I think a lot of times as pastors, we use what I call insider language. You think we do? Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_04 14:32

Like we're gonna take a love offering now. This would be great.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

So this this churchy stuff, this churchy language, and um we just kind of expect everybody to know that. And it's it's so arrogant of us to be able to do that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:46

Yes, it is. And and and just it's not even arrogant. We're just we're so used to our little bubbles. Like when I grew up, our church had a narthex. Yeah, right. Have you ever tried to explain what a narthex is? Isn't that like part of an insect's body or something? I heard it was a hemorrhoid cream once. That's so good. Yeah, it's he rash try narthex. Yeah, yeah. And so we just use these words because we're familiar with them in our everyday life. Yeah, you know, and so but what does that mean to anybody? Now, for sure, for an outsider, trying to explain church lingo is challenging. Yeah, but now imagine that you've been um this would be an odd example, but like you got beat up in the narthex. Right. You know, just to physically assault the pow. Right. Okay, now whatever that word meant to you before, now it's gonna have this added element of danger every time I'm talking about the coffee and yeah, dude. And so that goes for all of our churchy language when there's been spiritual abuse. God loves you. Yeah, he loves me so much, he let the so-and-so do this to me. Okay, I got I I have to basically it puts me in the position as a therapist, it puts me in the position of saying, I'm here to serve you. Yeah, I'm not here to project my agenda, I'm not here to, you know, yeah, throw my beliefs at you. I'm just here to live to serve you. I don't even say love you because that that can be triggering.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_04 16:00

Because that because for so many people that has strings attached. Yeah, yeah, you know, and so I'm just here to serve you and help you on whatever journey you need to take.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Seems like a monster task sometimes to because people I think used a good word project, um they take what happened by their abuser and they project that onto Jesus also. Yes. When we know, as pastors, the profound love and grace and desire for Jesus for us to have healthy flourishing lives. And that association that's made with um a human-gone rogue to Jesus is something that hopefully we are able to to mend and you know, give ideas on what the healthy relationship that Jesus wants. But getting there is a journey. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:53

It it is it is definitely a challenge. I and I will say the the journeys that I have been privileged to be a part of. Um you know, they've been good, they've been painful, they've been redemptive, they've been broken. I've seen marriages fall apart because of it, because one spouse doesn't want to leave a church and the other spouse has been wounded. I've seen kids who have been messed up by parents, and and yet I've also seen some of those same kids bring their parents to therapy because then the parent is starting to realize, wow, this was a messed up situation I put my kid in.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

And so there's also tremendous, you know, again, I'm gonna use that churchy word redemption. Yeah, but there's just that incredible amount of we'll just say recovery, I'll use the more clinical word. When when people are allowed to, I mean they're validated in their pain, yeah, they're allowed to uh be broken. Yeah, we don't realize it because we want people to be better. And so if somebody comes up and says, Oh, yeah, I'm really questioning if Jesus is real. Oh no, you gotta believe he's real. Here's the case for Christ, here's this book, here's this course, here's this information, here's the Bible, whap, there you go. Okay, and they're never gonna ask a question to us again. Yeah, but allowing people in any way to to to struggle, to question, to ask, why do we believe this in general? That's just a good disposition. Now, when somebody's been wounded by the church, letting them breathe and letting them just okay, I don't know if I can trust that God is really good. Okay. Now, every every part of my theological brain is like, yes, he is. Yeah, yeah. I don't I don't need to convince you of that. Yeah, God is good whether I convince you or not. So I'm just gonna I'm just gonna sit here and let them kind of breathe in that space and say, Is God good? Well, I think he is, but that's not important. What do you think?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Yeah, I like to tell people like there's a lot of times we have what I call just a ministry of presence, yes, of just being there with people, just crying with them if they're crying, just um listening, right? Um, I've no but um and I think that's a a great ministry that we're all called to have. Yes, you know, it's it's not just clergy or people that get paid for you know um their vocation, but it's it's like all of us can be the ministry of presence with people as well. Um have you ever let me just shift it a little bit. Like, do you ever have a chance to work with people who are actually the perpetrators of spiritual abuse? Yes, yeah. And what's that look like?

SPEAKER_04 19:22

Yeah. Anytime, and I I have a couple people who have who are on my caseload right now and have been on my caseload who are perpetrators of different kinds of abuse, you know, spiritual, uh, sexual, physical, others. Uh many of them, you know, we know they're perpetrators when they come in, and the reason they're there is for court ordered treatment. Okay, so okay, something happened. Um it it's an interesting journey, you know. In in some senses, I would say it's almost easier to work with from my emotional perspective, it's easier to work with the offenders. Yeah. Because I don't have to worry about their emotions. Yeah. They're they don't have any. That's a broad generalization. Sorry, I shouldn't say. No, I get you. But but for someone who who's committed um abuse against another person, there's a weird almost matter-of-factness. Oh, yeah, you know, this happened and this happened, and you know, but it did. It's it's almost this bland conversation that to me creates a lot of weird internal chaos of like you just told me you did what and you're just telling me like you ordered breakfast.

SPEAKER_02 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:21

Um, let's let's dig into that. Why, why, why is that okay? Um but but to hear their uh the the recounting of their uh their stories of what happened is very factual. Uh it's not until we get into their trauma that it gets heavy. Okay. You know, because it's almost like, you know, when I when I talk with the abusers, it's almost like I'm reading the police report. Like, here are the facts, these are the facts, I can read the facts, the facts are unpleasant, but uh there's no emotional connection to it, it's just yeah, that shouldn't happen.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Do they have like you know, I I'm making huge generalizations, but is there a like a lack of repentance, or is it just like, all right, now I have to face this thing that I got busted for, or a little bit of everything.

SPEAKER_04 21:08

Well, we're using that churchy word again, repentance. Yeah. Um, you know, then there's that question of, you know, do I have remorse, regret, repentance um because I got caught or because I want change? Right, right. Well, those aren't necessarily mutually exclusive things. Okay. You know, uh pretty much everyone I've talked to who's ever been caught. Anytime I've been caught, you know, for speeding, doesn't matter what, uh I regret getting caught. Yeah. Um no nobody likes that. But but you know, the the journey that I get to take with people sometimes is we move past the yeah, I'm here because I'm supposed to be here, I have to be here, the court made me be here, and we get to move into a place of wow, I did the same thing. Um one person, uh, we were doing an exercise, and um it's an active imagination exercise, and it was interesting. Because we were talking about um let's imagine for a minute uh that the the part of you that committed this crime is sitting in that chair over there and let's let's interview this part of you. Just an imaginative thing. And I was asking a couple of questions, and it was just this light bulb moment that I was like, uh, how old does this this uh abusive you know part of you uh think you are? And the gave he said the correct answer that he was, and then kind of I just said, How old does that part think it is? He goes, 12. Why do I know that? I was I don't know. Let's figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:36

Well, guess what happened when that person was 12? Yeah. They were the victim of abuse.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

And so um then it all of a sudden the the connections when that with those moments don't happen often, but when they do, those connections are powerful. And and that's when we can actually see a recognition and a change start to take place. And and honestly, one of the most profound evidences to me that someone is quote better is when they say, Yeah, I can never be around kids ever again. Or I can never be in that environment ever again. Yeah. Even if I'm better, I'm never going to be. Yeah. Okay. Now we're starting to head in the right direction.

SPEAKER_01 23:10

You know, it's that old axiom, like hurt people, hurt people. Yes. And um I've had this a couple of times though, where it's hard for me, if I'm all honest here, to be really sympathetic with an abuser. Yeah. Like I've had guys in here that have um just um wrecked their their ministry, their marriages, and everything because they're having affairs um while they're pastors. I'm like, dude, what do you what goes through your mind when you just stand in a pulpit and you know, and I look at myself too, you know, I'm not perfect, but shoot, I would never get to that level, I hope, in my heart. And but so do you find that to be a barrier, like when you try to help people, or you just kind of you know put that aside?

SPEAKER_04 23:59

Partially, you know, yeah, we put it aside. But the other the other piece at a very real level, you know, when we say we're not perfect, we're often doing lip service to that.

SPEAKER_02 24:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:08

Romans 2 will teach us that if I judge someone for their sin, I'm at fault because I'm guilty of the same sin. Well, I was like, okay, I've never abused a kid. How can I how can I be guilty of that same sin? I've never when I teach that part, I'll say, like, you know, I'll ask a like a class or a group, like, is using meth is that a sin? Well, everyone will say yes, we shouldn't use meth. Like a good, I think Jesus can get on board with that one, yeah. I say, how many of you have ever used meth? And I usually only ask that when I can predict the answer is no. I say, okay, so if I look at it, I I've never used meth. So if I look at a meth user and say, That's a sin, you're a horrible human being. I'm judging them, but the Bible says I'm guilty of that same sin. But how could that be? I've never taken meth. Well, that's because sin is not the behavior. The behavior is the evidence of the sin. We get hung up on the behavior uh the using the meth or whatever. Have I ever sought physical pleasure to feel good about myself, whether it's food, whether it's you know, whatever. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 25:13

Okay, I'm guilty of the same thing as a meth user.

SPEAKER_02 25:15

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Have I ever used my position, power, and authority to get what I want from somebody? Yes. That's the same underlying sin that an abuser uses. Now the degree to which I do it is not harmful, but it is the same sin. You and I are both guilty of that.

SPEAKER_01 25:33

That's a good word. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 25:35

And and and we don't like that. Yeah. Because I want the abuser to be in a different category. Right. Because then I can say it's them. There is no different category, it's us.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

So with that in mind then, and granted, like a lot of this stuff is confidential that we know that other people don't, but how should we respond to both victims and abusers as a church when we have a little bit of an awareness that's going on because we don't want to stigmatize or how does that look?

SPEAKER_04 26:11

You know, that looks like boatloads of wisdom needed. You know, in one sense, if we have a compassionate heart, if we have an empathetic church, taking care of the victims will be the easier task. Not not easy, but easier because we show love, we show compassion, we maintain boundaries, we have good policies, we respect their journeys. Um that's painful work but good work. I think the harder work, and I don't have an answer for it, the harder work is how do we minister to the abusers? Because if somebody if somebody walks into the church and says, Hey, I'm a registered sex offender, yeah, okay, I want that person to know Jesus, I don't want them sitting next to my kid necessarily. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Well, legally with our kid systems now. Sure. We have legal boundaries that you know, but still.

SPEAKER_04 27:00

And at the same token, it's just because somebody's on the registry doesn't mean that they're unsafe right now.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:08

You know, how about the person who's not on the registry who's still the abuser? How do I find them? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, these are tough questions, and the church we tend to spiritually whitewash them, the issues, and move on. And I love bringing up these conversations because there are no good answers, and we have to keep the questions going.

unknown 27:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Where can um we go for resources about that was my phone, which was not on mute.

SPEAKER_04 27:36

So um, I'm gonna be checking my phone now to make sure that my phone's mute.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

I don't know if I'll edit that or not. Hey. Yeah, it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 27:43

Um we we needed some levity. We're having very happy conversations.

SPEAKER_01 27:47

This is tight. Where can we go for research uh resources that for let's say we know a situation that's going on, um, people are coming to us and asking us to help. Do you have any ideas or suggestions where we can go and what would be a good next step for us to to help people?

SPEAKER_04 28:07

Well, there's a couple of good next steps. Um, you know, again, we you've asked a very broad question, a situation that's happening. There's lots of situations. Um let me let me make some some generalized statements. Um one, I think every one of us as pastors, if you are serving a church, you you included, good sir, we need a therapist. Yeah, you just have to. Yeah, you know, um, because we we were talking before we went on air about narcissism in pastors, and yeah, and I read the book When Narcissism Comes to Church by Chuck DeGroat. I read it expecting to find out about all these other pastors that I know are who are narcissists, and I discovered they are, uh, but so am I.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:48

I mean, anytime we stand in front of the same group of people every week, they give us a special title and a cool parking place, they refer to us as reverend or pastor, it's not a matter of if we're narcissistic, it's how bad and are we aware of it. And so, unless we have somebody that can give us that honest feedback to say, uh, that was a little bit narcissistic, brother, um, we we can miss it. So we we need to be doing our own work as pastors. And so I encourage every pastor to have a therapist. Don't necessarily call me because I'm only licensed in one state, and my practice is pretty full, but there's a lot of good therapists out there. Yeah. And uh the other piece too, um, you know, my organization, Stand Up Therapy Live, we do uh obviously we do the comedy piece, but the other side of it is we do training and consulting for churches. We help with uh suicide prevention and awareness, we help with leader training on mandatory reporting, and we help people just kind of be those safe people, those safe churches, and help leaders kind of learn how to address those whatever the whatever the bomb is that might go off. Yeah, you know, whether it's uh it's an affair, whether it's a porn usage, whether it's an addiction issue, whatever the problem is, um, you know, we kind of help churches develop you know some systems and plans to help with that. Now, uh you're gonna ask me at some point what's your website and it's standardherapy. And if you go to that, you're gonna see all about my corporate speaking, you're gonna see all about the comedy, you won't see this stuff on there. Okay. But but they can still if you can still reach out to me at that website and just say, you know, we're developing a new website that will have the consulting piece on it.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

But because I gotta think that's um it's not as uncommon as we would hope it would be. No, it's not people need to know where to go.

SPEAKER_04 30:27

What's uncommon is church is dealing with it proactively instead of reactively.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Gotcha. So well, it sounds like God has called you to do a good work rate at the time we need it the most. I hope so. And um, yeah. All right. Um, well, anything else on our our hearts today, Matt? Well, it's it's raining.

SPEAKER_04 30:49

Yeah, we got we got deep. Hey, it's a comedian, we're gonna talk about something funny. Like, yeah. Um well, and to be honest, I've been asked the I've been asked the question, you know, when when we deal with this heavy stuff, what's how does comedy fit into this? Yeah. Well, what I what I've seen, and you know, the people who know me and love me know that um uh on a regular basis, I will go somewhere, usually when it's a little sunnier than it is right now. Yeah, that's pretty soggy, I don't know. We're we're we're kayaking in today. Um but I I will go somewhere, and this is just one of the odd things that I do, but I will go somewhere, I'll put my feet uh on the earth itself and just sit and cry and deal with emotions. And uh usually if it's uh somewhere out here in West Michigan where I can look at a large body of water, we got a couple around, you know, just to take care of ourselves. But then also if if all we do is if all we do is look at the dark, it's really easy to lose hope. And so that's why I intentionally started, you know, one of the reasons I started doing the comedy was yes, there's some really dark and ugly things that we ignore that we need to look at. Yeah. At the same time, there are beautiful and amazing and ridiculously awesome, funny things that are also still happening. And I have to train myself to look at those too. Yeah. Because, you know, whatever's true, whatever's lovely, whatever's beautiful, focus on those things is what God's word teaches us. Uh some of the true things are ugly, yeah, and some of the beautiful things are worth celebrating.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

I like that because um, like just last week I was sharing with a little bit, we had our first grandson born, yeah, and it was just the most beautiful, awe-inspiring, silencing thing I have ever done, you know, next to when we held held our children. But like to hold a newborn human in your hands is so beautiful. And then at the same time, the day before I was in the hospital visiting a young 18-year-old man who was in a horrific car accident that is hanging on by a thread, and it's like God never gives you all good or all bad in one day. You know, sometimes it may seem like that, but it's usually this um peculiarity that they're both there. Yeah. And yeah, that's a good word to to lean into that as well.

SPEAKER_04 33:02

The comedy I find helps me find that a little quicker. Yeah, yeah. World's full of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, I I hear you. I hear you. All right, Matt.

SPEAKER_04 33:11

Um I will say this on our trip out to uh and and I had to apologize to this guy later, but the the spur of the moment got me. Um so we're traveling out to Sufa, South Dakota, and one of our comedians he he uh took a little extra time, took his wife with, and they're out traveling, and um, and they spent a couple days before, they took a couple days after, traveled on their own. They said, and one of the things he said when we were in our team meeting was uh Well, we want to stop at the Spam Museum in Austin, Minnesota. Yeah, part of the home mill. That's the that is the thing. Spam, the meat product that comes in a can. Learn something new every day. Yes, and immediately the entire team's like, can we go to the spam museum too? Yes, children, we can go to the spam museum. So we stop, and it was it was a good way to stretch our legs. We're walking around, and and you walk in, it's exactly what you think it is. It is an interactive children-like museum for spam. And um, you know, we're just kind of walking around, like, okay, this is fun, this is cool. And this this dude is walking around with spam on a like different kinds of spam on a platter you could try to stamp it up. Well, and he points it at me and he goes, Oh, I'm Jewish. I didn't even think, I just said I'm Jewish, and he because he's pointing pork at me. He's like, Oh, I'm so sorry, and he walks away. And he comes back 10 minutes later, and you know, I'm still Jewish, bro. And then he comes back, he's like, Oh, I'm sorry, uh, we have turkey.

unknown 34:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 34:29

I'm like, I'm just uh excuse me, don't you mean spurky? This is the spam museum. Don't you tell spurky? And he's just looking at me blank faced, like, I'm sorry, brother, I got I'm messing with you. I'm not Jewish. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

I just don't know how you're something wrong with me. It's not you. Yeah, this is a me thing, not a new thing.

SPEAKER_04 34:44

And uh, but yeah, just those moments where we can create something you know fun and amazing like that. That's that's a part of the reason I love doing what I do as well.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

Yeah, that's great. That's great. All right, brother. Um, well, I want to have you back again as we begin to you know process some of the things that you're sharing with us today. Um even though we are joking around a little bit, we understand the magnitude and um the hurt and the pain that goes along with this subject. And if you are listening to us today and you have been a victim, or if you are an abuser of um things physically or spiritually within a the context of a church or religious setting, um, I'm gonna ask you to reach out to us and we would love to have a conversation with you. You can do that through the link that's in the podcast description. Um and we would love to help you in your journey and to begin to find out what it will take to help you as well.

SPEAKER_04 35:49

Absolutely. And and let me just throw this in there as well, again, because obviously this is a uh heavy and important topic. Um, there are resources out there. Uh, if anyone's in uh an immediate emotional crisis, you know, there's 988, which is the suicide and mental health hotline. Uh, there's also the rain national sexual assault hotline as well. I want to put that one out there as well. Uh if you it's rain with two ends, R-A-I-N-N. And you can call 1-800-656-HOPE. And there's an some online and some text options as well, you know, because it's important that we believe uh the victims and the people who have gone through it. And so if that's if you're listening to this and that's you, there are people who will hear you, believe you, and safely come alongside and help bring some some recovery into your life. Uh, so I just want to make sure it's always good that we end, you know, with some of the resources. So you can reach out to us with the contact information in the show notes. And there's also 988 and the rain R-A-I-N-N, you know, survivors hotline.

SPEAKER_01 36:49

So thank you, Matt. Yeah, that's that's a great. Um all right. Well, thanks again, brother. Appreciate it when you're here. Um thank you for doing what God has asked you to do, whether it's fun or whether it's not. And um uh your testimony of faithfulness is inspiring to us as well. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 37:08

Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 37:10

All right, y'all. Um, once again, uh, if you have any questions on this subject and you'd like to reach out to us, just go ahead and do that. In the meantime, we hope that you join us for the next episode. Um, take good care and God bless.