Episode 033 The Day The Powers Lost

Scott and Bryan are back with part five of our ongoing series exploring Paul and spiritual beings. In this episode, we turn our attention to the climactic moment of the story—the cross—and what it means for the rebellious powers that oppose God and influence the world.

How did Jesus’ death accomplish victory? What did Paul mean when he spoke of rulers and authorities being disarmed? And how does the cross reshape the way we understand spiritual warfare today?

Join us as we unpack how, through what looked like defeat, Jesus secured a decisive and cosmic triumph—breaking the grip of the powers and opening the way for a new kind of life.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hey everyone, welcome to Project 18. This is Scott. Today I'm going to be co-hosting with Brian once again. You want to say hi, Brian? Hey everybody. Uh we're excited because we are continuing in a series that we began about Paul and spiritual beings. We are actually in part five of this, and we've gone pretty consistently. But however, we did take a break on the last episode. If you haven't caught that one yet, we had a great interview with a guy named Matthew Sharp, and it's about spiritual wounding, and uh that's a really good one. You're gonna want to make sure you catch that. But now we're gonna get back into the rhythm today of uh talking about Paul and spiritual beings. Just by way of reminder, we have done like an introduction to this. We've talked about the Bible's claims that there is an existence of spiritual beings, especially in uh much of Paul's writings, and then we had an uh episode where we talked about the rebellious beings and what they're up to. And then the last episode we did in this series was a discussion around faithful beings, who are the those that are still loyal to Jesus. What do those angels do and how they impact the world? And so today we're gonna take this a little bit farther and we're just gonna keep going down this same path. And Brian, what are we gonna be talking about today?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Yeah, so what we want to focus on today is like you just captured, we've spent basically a good amount of time identifying that Paul believes in spiritual beings. He has two really broad categories of spiritual beings in his mind: fallen spiritual beings that are in rebellion against Yahweh, and faithful spiritual beings that are working in service of Yahweh. And we've talked about how those spiritual beings interact, according to Paul, that the fallen spiritual beings do everything they can to undo what Yahweh wants to do in the world. The faithful spiritual beings are serving Yahweh's purposes in the world.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

And that interaction uh is with humanity and like with each other. Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 2:29

Okay, so that I was just having this conversation with someone this week, actually. So that the worldview that it seems like Paul had, and I'm convinced now that the worldview of the scriptures is that the material and spiritual world are not nearly as separate as we tend to think they are in the West. Uh, they are much more joined together. They have much more of an influence on each other, the spiritual and the spiritual and material worlds. And what Paul is picking up on is a worldview that is all throughout the Old Testament and was a even bigger part of that worldview that developed during the Second Temple period that we've talked about. And so what this conversation tends to culminate in is you have these two warring powers, it seems like. You have Yahweh and his faithful spiritual beings, and then you have fallen spiritual beings that are fighting with each other.

SPEAKER_01 3:44

And sometimes they're referred to in the scriptures as kingdoms.

SPEAKER_00 3:47

They are like the kingdom of God or the kingdom of Satan, even though the kingdom of darkness, kingdom of darkness, the kingdom of the world, this sort of thing. And again, when we hear those things about the world, we should not just be thinking about our material world. I think in Paul's mind that's a wider, a wider opinion, a wider view, at least. So the scriptures lay out this idea that God has an intention for the world and fallen spiritual beings have an intention for the world, and those two things are in conflict. And you have kind of this who's gonna win the war type of thing going on. And so what we want to focus on today is what does Paul have to say about that?

SPEAKER_01 4:31

This is exciting for me because it's like sometimes it may feel like with how we view the world or our culture, like um we're losing the war. Those of us who are faithful to Jesus and those of us who are loyal to him, but such is not the case. Right. Such cannot be the case, even right. We're gonna unpack that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:52

Yeah, exactly. That's what I'm I'm really excited because we've we've kept trying to give the caveat of Jesus is in control, Jesus is victorious. Like we've tried to keep that in front of people because we didn't want anyone listening to this to think that these powers are more powerful than they really are. And today I think we get to flesh that out. Yeah. Which is which is which is nice. It's uh and it's nice to get to this point, right? Absolutely. So where I think we should start is a passage that you and I have discussed a good bit since we started this journey, right? And it's in 1 Corinthians 2. Uh, I'm gonna start reading in verse six just to give some context. It says, We do, however, speak a wisdom among the mature, but not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age who are coming to nothing. On the contrary, we speak God's hidden wisdom in a mystery, a wisdom God predestined before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

So, right away, we're hearing language about um these camps, like um the rebellious camp and the faithful camp.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

Yeah. So when Paul says rulers of this age, he is talking about an age where the kingdom of God is not fully present.

SPEAKER_03 6:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Right? It's it's and for Paul, this age is a reference to the current age in which we find ourselves. At the very least, like it's it's the age we've been in since Genesis three. Gotcha. At the very least, now there's some variation debates about that, right? But in its broadest category, when Paul talks about this age, he has to be at the very least talking about Genesis three, fall of human beings. You and I would argue fall of spiritual beings, at least initially, and then onward until the new heavens and new earth, right? Okay. So the I wanna I wanna acknowledge this because I think it's important for us to do this. There are differing opinions on what you and I are about to talk about. This is true. Uh, and there are really, really smart people on both sides of this, yes, and you and I agree with a certain portion of those smart people. So the reason why I say that is the question about this text that we read, verses six through eight of First Corinthians two who are the rulers of this age? Yeah, are they just earthly, human rulers or powers or authority structures that Paul's talking about, or is there something more? Right?

SPEAKER_01 7:48

Right. Because how we view the answer to that um kind of unravels the rest of the verse, too, and what that means.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

It really does. And so I think the key for that is what Paul says the rulers did. Okay. So in verse 8, he says, none of the rulers of this age knew this wisdom, because if they had known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. So Paul is saying that whoever the rulers of this age are, whoever is referring to, he's saying that they crucified Jesus. Yep. And he's saying that if they had known this wisdom, they wouldn't have crucified him. So we have to ask ourselves, what does Paul mean? Who is he referring to when he talks about the crucifixion of Jesus? Is he talking about earthly rulers? Is he talking about heavenly rulers? Or is he talking about both? Yeah. Those tend to be the three viewpoints on this. The two that are in the majority are earthly or both. I I have found very few people that hold to the fact that he is talking exclusively about heavenly rulers or heavenly powers here.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, and that seems congruent with the fact that like the earthly rulers, the human the humanity of it, like the Romans, they literally put him to death. So it seems like they at least have some role in this.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Which is which is why the purely heavenly opinion is not widely held at all. Yeah. This text has to involve earthly rulers. Yes. But is it just earthly rulers? Now, if you if you were to do research on this, you would probably find that the majority of people would say, yes, that Paul here is just focused on earthly rulers, especially if you're looking at a Western history of interpretation, post-Enlightenment type of thing. But we know, we know from Paul's own testimony that he spent a lot of time around the other apostles who worked with Jesus, who were in Jesus' presence, he learned from them. We also have some really interesting indication that Paul received some kind of direct revelation from Jesus, like teaching from Jesus himself. So, what I want to do is I want to kind of zoom out a little bit from Paul. Okay. Just we've been looking mostly at just Pauline literature. Right. But I want to zoom out just a little bit and show what the gospels picture here. So in Luke 22, verses 3 through 6, it says, Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. He went away and conferred with the chiefs, priests, and officers how we might how he might betray him to them.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Okay, so that just speaks of like this both kingdoms, right? You've got the kingdom of darkness with Satan, he's one of the characters that's represented there, and Judas Iscariot, who betrays Jesus. Uh, seems like they're working together.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Yeah. Satan has a hand in it. Yep. So and Satan is referred to in the New Testament even by Paul as the god of this age, different things like that. And so you have the Jewish rulers, Jewish authorities, and the chief priests who are working with Judas, but Judas is also under the influence of the Satan. You get something very similar in John 13, 27, where Jesus in John 13 says, One of you are going to betray me. The disciples start freaking out about that, and they ask Jesus who's going to betray him, and he says, The one that I hand this bread that I dip into a cup to. And in John 13, 27, as soon as Judas took the bread, it says Satan entered into him. So Jesus told him what you are about to do to do do it quickly. So you have these two moments in Luke and in John, where uh the Satan, this kind of the quintessential fallen spiritual being, is involved in the bringing about of Jesus' death. So you have the Romans, you have the religious leaders of the Jewish people at the time, but you also have the Satan heavily involved.

SPEAKER_01 12:31

So you've got representatives from both humanity and the immaterial world.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

And then later in Luke 22, Jesus is in the garden and he's being arrested. And he looks at the people who come to arrest him and he says, Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. And then he says, But this is your hour and the dominion of darkness. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Okay. So it's like he's tethering those things.

SPEAKER_00 13:00

So it's like Jesus is tying those two things together. It's like Jesus is saying, This is your hour, and he's saying that to the representatives of the rulers that have come to arrest him, who will then hand him over to other rulers to be crucified. But notice in Jesus' own words, he says, This is your hour and the dominion of darkness.

unknown 13:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:25

So what what I what the reason I'm showing us that is to say it seems like there was an understanding, at least among those who authored these two gospels, that there was a teaming up between the material and spiritual world. That's why I started with that little clarifier that we've been trying to bring in as we've been talking about this. The gap, the bridge, the the veil between the material and spiritual world is much less than what we think, to the extent that Jesus would say, This is your hour, and it's also darkness' hour.

SPEAKER_01 14:13

And we've seen in our previous, you know, deep dive into Paul that you know he thinks this way too. It's kind of his worldview that these uh unseen beings do have an influence directly with humanity. Absolutely. So he's jiving with what Luke and John the authors there wrote.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Exactly. And so when you get to First Corinthians, uh when Paul says if the rulers of this world knew what they were doing, they wouldn't have crucified Jesus. I find it most compelling that Paul has the rulers of both the heavenly spiritual realms and earthly as well. Yeah. I think that the fact that you see very clear pictures of the Satan influencing the process that saw Jesus get crucified is what Paul is trying to show us and what the New Testament is trying to show us is that Jesus' death was not just a human endeavor, that it wasn't just human beings who put him to death, it was also the influence of fallen spiritual beings.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

Yeah, and I'm tracking with you. We think the same on this for sure. And that makes that verse in 2 Corinthians 2.8 just like a mic drop verse of the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Um it really, it really does, because what it what it says then, 1 Corinthians 2.8 is telling us that those powers acted in ignorance. Or what Jesus was going to do. Because if they really did, because if they really did, they wouldn't have done it. Yeah. They wouldn't have done it. So essentially what Paul is saying is that if the Jews and the Romans knew what crucifying Jesus was going to do. This is good. So a little bit of a rabbit trail. Yeah, yeah. Think about the crucifixion. Yep. You have the Jews who are walking up to Jesus and mocking him. If you are the Messiah, the special one, yeah, come down off that cross. You have the Romans mocking Jesus. If you're the Son of God, come down off that cross. Even Herod's, um, not Herod, even Pilate's sign that he puts over Jesus' head, the king of the Jews, right? It's all meant to mock Jesus, to say this is no king. If they had known that crucifying Jesus is what would actually make him king, yeah, they wouldn't have done it. Dude, that's amazing. That's the that's the earthly side of it. Yeah. So in in a sense, they're mocking him and saying, We're crucifying you to prove this wrong, but actually what they're doing is making him king. They're making him Messiah. They're they're they're affirming who he really is and what he's come to do by what they're doing when they're trying to usurp it, right? What I think Paul is saying in 1 Corinthians 2 8 is that that's what fallen spiritual beings were trying to do too. Oh, yeah, I agree. So if you look at the ways of our world, power, dominance, and death are seen as the most important and effective way to rule. That has not changed. Just look at our world. Yeah. Look at look at the way that our political elections are talked about, look at how climbing the corporate ladder is talked about. The more power, dominance, and control you have, even if it means that some people, in a literal or metaphorical sense, have to die in the process. This is how we do things in our world. Yeah. That's not a coincidence.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

I agree. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

It's it is it is the it is the motivating factor behind the Satan's fall. Like you read the descriptions of the Satan that are in Isaiah and Ezekiel in Eternity Past, where the prophets are telling us that the Satan envied the Lord, wanted Yahweh's place, wanted Yahweh's power, and so he tried to take it for himself and Yahweh put him in his place. And so you can imagine they, the powers, and this is crazy. You read the gospels, there are so many fallen spiritual beings that are looking at Jesus and they're like, What are you doing here?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:08

We know you.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

But what are you doing here? Right? Yeah. It's like, yeah. Yeah. And so even the Satan himself, Jesus gets baptized, goes into the wilderness, and the Satan comes and says, I'm gonna get you like I did Adam and Eve. I'm gonna tempt you with similar, very similar things. It's crazy how the wilderness temptation maps onto what we see not just in the garden, but what we see that happens with Israel in the wilderness and different things like that. Exactly. Yep. And so but Jesus overcomes that. Like he overcomes the Satan the first time, and it says, it says that the Satan left him till a more opportune time.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

And so the Satan looks at it and goes, okay, I couldn't get him this way. I've gotten because here's the powers see Jesus, and I think part of the reason they're like, What are you doing here? is because he's human.

SPEAKER_01 20:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

100% human. Like they can see he's not here as the son of God we recognize from the spiritual realm. He's yeah, he's part of the material world now. Like he's he's one of these fleshly creatures now. So Satan fails the first time, leaves till an opportune time, and the next time he shows up, in Luke's account, this is all in Luke's account, the next time he shows up is at Jesus' betrayal and his death. So it's almost like the powers said, Okay, temptation didn't work, the way that it always does with human beings, but we've still got our ultimate trump card.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

We're just gonna kill him. We'll kill him. Yeah. Death.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

That's the ultimate trump card. Wow. And only what they didn't realize was that the I I I genuinely think that when Jesus dies on Good Friday and goes into the grave, I genuinely think the powers think they've got him.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:11

I think they think they've won. I I really think that the powers believed they had finally conquered Yahweh. Yeah. Because this is his son. This is the son of God, and we just killed him. And we actually pulled it off. Yeah. Like he's dead and buried.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

But little did they know, like this was his plan all along. He actually dupes them. You know, I love how C.S. Lewis did this in The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe, right? Like Aslan goes to the White Witch, and they just have this glorious melee party where they kill him on the altar and everything, and they think they've won.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

That is such Lewis is definitely riffing on this concept we're talking about right now. Yep. Yep. And I think part of why Lewis riffs on that is because of what Paul writes. Here in 1 Corinthians 2, verse 8. In other words, the cross backfired on the rulers of this age. The cross backfired on the Jewish religious leaders. It backfired on the Romans. Yeah. And it backfired on the Satan and those aligned with him so that in killing Jesus, they gave him the chance to be resurrected.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

And what's beautiful about this, and we'll probably unpack this a little bit more, is just the way that Jesus um knew his plan would happen. And he just kind of like dupes them into it. And this goes back into other stories of the scripture, we don't have time to get into today, of like the transfiguration and all these type of things, too, where he's like almost baiting them, knowing what they'll do, because it's part of his plan to save humanity.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Exactly, exactly. And so essentially what you have is if they had known what they were going to do, they wouldn't have done it.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Because what he did actually had an impact on them by the way that not it didn't just impact earthly rulers, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:22

It impacted heavenly rulers. Where do we get that? Okay, Colossians 2, 14 and 15. Uh I'm actually going to read verse 13, because it just gives us a little bit of important context. Paul says, And when you were dead in trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he, being Jesus, made you alive with him and forgave all our trespasses. He erased the certificate of death with its obligations that was against us and opposed to us, and has taken it away by nailing it to the cross. Verse 15, he disarmed the rulers and the authorities and disgraced them publicly. He triumphed over them in him. Jesus, in his death on the cross and his resurrection, forgave our trespasses, canceled our debt and the obligations. So notice that's very similar to how we think about salvation. We needed saved from our sin, the obligation that comes with that, the debt that comes with that, et cetera, right? The human element. The human element. What we don't tend to pick up on is the second portion of that passage where it says he disarmed the rulers and the authorities. In other words, we need rescued as human beings, we need rescued from more than just sin and death. We need rescued from these powers. Sure. That goes back to that episode that we did on what these powers do. They hold us captive.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Uh we're, we're, we are, we are almost like they have ownership over us. Yeah. And Jesus has to get us back. See what I mean? And so, yes, we need saved from sin. Yes, we need saved from death. We also need saved from the powers. That's what the disarming's about. Exactly. That's what the disarming is about. And what's really cool is Paul is pulling on an image here that everyone in Colossae would have realized. When the Romans triumphed, when the Romans won a battle, what they loved to do is the they would march into a city after winning a battle, and they would do it to all this pomp and circumstance and all of this praise. Part of what they would do is they would take some prisoners from whoever they had defeated, and they would literally strip them naked. Yep. And they would parade them publicly. So you would have the general, the victorious leader of the Romans who had just won this battle. He would ride into a city and walking behind him would be disarmed warriors. Yep. So disarmed that they don't have their armor, they don't have their weapons, they don't even have their underwear. Right. They're just they're just naked. Yeah. Yeah. Being paraded through the city. They're being shamed. Shamed. It's it's displaying their defeat to everyone around them. That's what happened to the powers when Jesus died on the cross and rose again.

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Two, that march that they were forced to make often led to their death. Oh, it did. Yeah, it led right to them being crucified or killed otherwise. Um and you can just see the irony here because that's also what they did with Jesus, the Romans did. Mm-hmm. You know, they stripped him bare, they shamed him, and they marched him to his death thinking they were victorious.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Yes. So think about what they did to Jesus was normal. Yeah. What the Romans did to Jesus was normal. Yeah. Strip them, march them through the city, and then put them to death. Essentially, this is what Jesus has done. He has disarmed the powers. They have no more authority. They have no more weapons. They have no more defenses. They are as defenseless and weak as a naked baby on the day the baby is born. And one day they will be put to death. Psalm 82.

SPEAKER_01 27:43

So where we're at in this age, like we started then, is they have been disarmed, they've been neutered.

SPEAKER_00 27:50

But they have not yet been put to death. They will be. That's the point of the imagery in Revelation 20. They will be put to death. This process will be carried out. Sure. But what's important to realize is that the day that Jesus was crucified is the day the power's lost.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

That was their death now.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Exactly. Exactly. They they have no power left other than to try to drag as many of us down as they possibly can. So I think the implication there, this would be a much longer conversation that I don't know that we have time for. The implication there is that post Babel and pre-cross, it seems like the rulers and powers that had fallen had legitimate power, legitimate rule. All of that has been taken away now. Yeah. All of that has been taken back by Jesus. It's been reclaimed by him. Notice how much did you notice how much reclamation language is in those first couple of verses leading into what Paul says about the powers in Colossians chapter two? He talks about forgiving trespasses. He talks about erasing a certificate of debt. That's reclaiming language. He talks about uh all of the obligations that were against us and opposed us, taking them away and nailing to the cross. In other words, Jesus is reclaiming what's his. And he reclaims what's his, not just from sin and death, but from the powers themselves. Wow. So that now I truly believe that the only power fallen spiritual beings have in our world is the power that we give them.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Okay. Yeah. I'm trying to do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:43

Like the amount that we allow them to have in our own personal lives, the amount that we allow them to have in our world. And I think so. What I'm trying to say is this when Jesus disarmed the powers, it didn't eliminate their influence on our world. It eliminated any sway that they have outside of what we're willing to give them. That's good.

SPEAKER_01 30:10

Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. You know, I have a random thought. So okay. I love random thoughts. I'm just gonna drop this in on you too. To me, when I hear some of what we're talking about, it has huge implications on the nature of salvation for human beings. Because one of the biggest um lies that's going around all across our world today is that I can save myself by doing good works. And that basically focuses on all the humanity side of things. And it never deals with like the supernatural aspect of needing to be rescued from the grip of darkness, also. Yes. Um I don't know if what I'm thinking or even articulate. That's why I but like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

So think about it. How what better way to keep someone under your control than convincing them that you that they can control themselves? Sure. In other words, what uh I'll just state plainly what I'm trying to insinuate. I think the idea that we can save ourselves is a lie straight from the pit of hell, yeah, so that fallen spiritual beings can keep some semblance of control over us.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Yeah, yep. And it is the basis of some major religious systems in our world. And when I read through what we're talking about here, though, it's like salvation and rescue and disarming, none of that is possible without the cross.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Exactly. Yeah. I I a hundred percent agree with that. It's so so what's really cool is the language Paul uses earlier in Colossians, Colossians 1, 13 and 14. He says, He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. In him we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. So notice again, these two things are being tied together. Redemption and forgiveness of sins is being tied with being rescued out of the domain of darkness. Yeah, there's those two groups again. Exactly. Those two kingdoms, those two domains. Exactly. Exactly. Galatians 1 4, it says, Who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from this present evil age according to the will of our God and Father. And so what I would say to those listening to us is that I want to caution against two extremes. Okay. I want to caution against an extreme that says, well, Jesus has stripped naked and disarmed the powers. So that means that I can go see a psychic.

unknown 33:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:09

And I can mess with a Ouija board, and I can I can do all of the no. Yeah. No. Because New Testament post-resurrection, there are still lots of warnings against that. Because the powers have been disarmed and neutered. I liked that word that you used earlier. Okay. They've been disarmed and they've been neutered, but they're not dead yet. Right. Right. Um so I'm I want to caution against we should not walk around with this presumption that they have no effect on anything anymore. I'm completely fine. I can do whatever I want because those powers aren't going to touch me.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

Yeah. Would it be fair to say that if I've committed loyalty to Jesus, I've accepted his salvation and his free gift, that ownership can no longer happen by Satan and his forces in my life. Yeah. However, they can still uh oppress me and still influence me to levels that I surrender to them.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah, I would, I would, there's debate on this. Yep. Yeah. But I would say that I pretty strongly believe that a Christian cannot be possessed by a demon or any other fallen spiritual being. Because light has no fellowship with darkness, we are indwelt with the spirit. Um he that is in us is greater than us than he is that is in the world, etc. Right. But that doesn't mean that if we as Christians open doors for bad spiritual powers to have influence in our lives, they can take that.

SPEAKER_01 34:55

Sure. Like an Old Testament picture of that would be like a desecration of the temple.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

It would be, yeah. Yeah. Something along those lines. Now, the other thing to caution against is the idea of I have to live in fear of these beings. Right. I'd better not play with a Ouija board or I'm gonna get possessed. Do you see what I mean? You better not play with a Ouija board. Hear me very clearly. But if you've played with a Ouija board, the power that they have over you is only the power that you've given them. Right. And that can be taken back just as easily by surrendering that area of your life back over to Jesus. Yeah. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, in other words, our union with Christ cannot be threatened by these beings. Our communion with Christ certainly can, but that communion is only influenced by the amount of power and influence we allow these beings to have. Does that make sense? It does. And so for me, if I'm counseling a believer on these things, I'm looking at them and saying, don't mess with that. Yeah. Though those things have are really bad to mess with, and it's been that way since Genesis 3. At the same time, you don't have to live in fear of them.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Right. And even along those lines, we don't go looking for interaction with the powers of darkness and the domain of Satan or all those things either.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

No. And we're going to talk about this in a little more detail in a further conversation, but I think it is important now to say most of the language you see given to us about we'll use a little bit of a buzz phrase. Most of the information you see about given to us in the New Testament about spiritual warfare is defensive. Sure. Yeah. It's not go out looking for fights with Satan. Like when it's so you're talking about um the armor of God text, right? That armor is presented as self-defense. Right. And it says stand. Yeah. It doesn't say attack or go. Right. It says stand. Now we'll talk about what the going looks like because there is a going. There is a way that we take back ground from the powers, but it doesn't look like I'm walking around looking for the next exorcism. Right. Yeah. If a situation like that comes to us as Christians, we have power and authority to participate in that kind of liberating ministry for people. You know, it's God's armor that we put on. Exactly. His authority. Exactly. Because an opportunity has been presented to us, and I'm going to defend myself and defend this person.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Which gets into the no fear part.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:46

Don't go looking for it, but you're not.

SPEAKER_00 37:48

But you don't need to be afraid of it. Yeah, because they have been disarmed.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. Here we go. Again, egg circling right now.

SPEAKER_00 37:55

Yeah, they have been disarmed. They don't have any more authority, any more rule. All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus. So rewinding to that conversation, the only thing spiritual beings can do, fallen spiritual beings can do now is take whatever ground human beings will give them in order to bring as many of us down with them as they can.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

Yeah, because now they know post-resurrection, like, oh, that was a bad move. So you you wonder what their end game is now. And part of that is certainly the destruction of humanity and um getting what is due to God is loyalty, love, and devotion assigned to them, for lack of a better phrase, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 38:46

But exactly, exactly. And so what that leads to then is just I want to give people a very clear picture of where that leaves us. It's in Ephesians chapter one. Okay. Verse starts in verse 20. It says, God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places. So again, notice the language. Again, it's those two, it's those two spaces that Jesus has rule over both of them, not as two separate kingdoms, but almost as kingdom one A and Kingdom 1B. Which is why we think this is talking about both. Exactly. So verse 21, then it says, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age, but also in the age to come. And he has put all things under his feet and has made him head over all things for the church. So again, just notice that Paul is using a whole bunch of superlatives, he's making as extreme of statements as he possibly can, basically just to draw our attention to the fact that there is nothing higher than Jesus. Everything is below him, and what got him there was the cross.

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

What gave Jesus ultimate power and authority was his willingness to lay down ultimate power and authority, not to grab after it. I think that's really important because the reason the powers are defeated and subjected to Jesus, the reason that he is their head, is because Jesus was willing to allow the powers to do their absolute worst to him and he still won.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

What an example for us. This is so this is this is key. So when we when we start thinking about okay, what's so what? Why does what you and I are talking about matter here? I think it's the needed reminder in our current moment that the cross, like the way of the cross is better. That idea I alluded to earlier is still alive and well today. We still believe that the best way to do things is through power, dominance, and control. We still believe that. We believe that, we believe that in our churches. We do. Unfortunately, we believe that in our houses, we believe that in our workplace, in our governments, all over the world. America, I would, I would suggest that anyone listening to this, wherever you are in the world, this is true for your culture. We still buy into a demonic idea that what is best is strength and bulldozing and gaining as much dominance and control over everyone else as we possibly can. It's why we're constantly killing each other, literally and metaphorically, like we've talked about, right? But Jesus shows us a better way that comes through humility, that comes through service, and dare I say comes through suffering, and a willingness to take those things on ourselves for the sake of others. That's Jesus' vision. That's how Jesus became the name above all names. That's how he became the destroyer of the powers.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

So one of our takeaways is um we get to live with his kingdom heart, not the kingdom of darkness, the kingdom of Satan. So because that's been defeated. Um and we get to be able to live in humility, recognizing his authority, his power. I like that you mentioned suffering because that's a big thing. You know, um because it it calls into the reality that even when we go through things that we don't want to go through, we can do that with a humble heart, realizing it's part of God helping us to live his kingdom and to show that in a place where things have been neutered but they haven't been killed yet.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Yeah. This is this is a great application of this. Um you've seen this, I've seen a little bit of it, you've seen a lot more of it than I have. It kind of lingers in our culture, but not as much. There is a prevailing idea around the world that I must be suffering because of some kind of demon.

SPEAKER_01 43:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

And that it could be the case. It could be at times. We we don't want to necessarily rule that out. But at the same time, it you might be suffering simply because you belong to a suffering savior. If one of the reasons I think Jesus suffered is because I heard I heard this put this way recently, it was really good. Pain is a megaphone that reminds us of our need for Jesus. Sometimes the reason God allows pain and suffering in our lives is so that we know how much we need Him, how little control and power we really have. And how that applies to this is to say again, we give too much credit to these powers sometimes. You might be suffering in your life because that's how Jesus has shown is the way to true life. Because suffering is one of the things that keeps us from this powerful control and dominance type of thing.

SPEAKER_01 44:58

And he himself suffered for us, giving us a that example of how to endure it and how to be faithful through it.

SPEAKER_00 45:06

And enduring that suffering is part of what it disarms the powers. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:13

And so we're talking about something like some scholars call it the great reversal. Yeah. And um we should do an episode on that. We should sometime. That'd be cool. But like yeah, it's just again that contrast between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness and the domain of darkness.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

Yeah, and so there's there's no one of the best contrasts I can give you is attitude towards enemies.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

Yeah. Talk about that for a second.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

So you and you and I are you and I are living this in America right now. Very acutely. Just in terms of your enemies are people to be crushed. Your enemies are people to be overrun. Your enemies are people to be cut out of your life, to be relegated to some sort of subhuman standard that says you don't have to treat them with the same kind of respect and dignity that you do people who aren't your enemies. And that is not just seen, that is seen in just about every sphere right now. Us and them later. Very much us and them. So the prevailing mindset is destroy your enemies in our culture right now. It's all over politics, it's all over culture wars, it's all over households. Destroy your enemy. What is what's Jesus' mentality? Love your enemies. Love your enemies. Serve them. Yeah. But it's it's the it's completely opposite. And yet what what we see in our world now is we see Christians who are talking more like the less like Jesus and more like the powers. Yeah. Destroy your enemies, put them to death. Whereas Jesus is saying, actually serve them, try to bring them life. It's quite an eye-opener.

unknown 47:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:24

It really, it really is. And what Jesus showed us is that that way is better. That way feels scary to us. It feels like if I do that, I'll be a doormat for my enemies and they'll just run me over and make my life miserable. Well, friend, even if they do, even if that does happen, which I think a lot of times is a false fear. Yeah. But even if it does happen, you will get to be with Jesus for all of eternity, and none of that will matter.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:53

So again, Jesus' victory gives us the power to live the way that He's asked us to live because we know that this life is not all that there is. We know that there's something better waiting for us on the other side. And that's how you combat the powers.

SPEAKER_01 48:09

So, right where we're at then in this age, we're living in a place where the powers have been disarmed, but like we're still living with them. So what do you think is the role of Christians, uh believers, the church in this this time then?

SPEAKER_00 48:32

I think Matthew 28, 18 through 20. Okay. Uh we can dig into this, we can dig into this a lot more on the next episode. Yeah. But just kind of as a teaser for that, what I would say is if you want to know the best way to take back ground, it's to preach the gospel. It's to proclaim that Jesus is King. Yeah. That all authority in heaven and on earth has been given to him. And we take back that territory and we proclaim that in both word and deed.

SPEAKER_01 49:13

So for me, part of this disarming is um the forces of darkness do not have the ability to hinder the gospel. And that's one of the ways they've been disarmed. And I'm looking forward to talking about that more. Yeah. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

Yeah. And I I think the other I think the other thing that's really important for us in this moment is to remember. We just spent this time to try and remind ourselves and remind anyone listening that Jesus really is in control. He has all power, he has all authority. The only power and authority that any of these fallen spiritual beings have is power and authority that Jesus allows them to have. And so while we should not presume upon these powers, we also don't need to give them nearly as much credit as I think some circles do. And so live in that certainty.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

Yeah, and we're seeing some of this in Revelation. We're studying through that right now, where there is no other option for the way that history will end. Jesus is unrivaled. There's no contenders that can put up a match. And yeah, that's that's really a comforting part of this for sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah, so if you if you have placed your faith in Jesus, if you have given him your loyalty, you are on the winning side. No matter how much evil thrashes about, you are on the winning side. You are on the side that not only will win in the end, but shows you the winning way to get there. Yeah that feels antithetical to everything that's natural and everything that the prevailing culture around us wants to say is the best way to go. But we cling to the one and follow the words of the one who said, Yeah, I I do have all authority.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

And if you're not on that side, you can be. That's the other beauty of this. You as well. And all it takes is surrender. There is no level of darkness that God isn't able to clear up.

SPEAKER_00 51:58

None. Yeah. None whatsoever. It doesn't matter if you have committed a whole bunch of moral atrocities, it doesn't matter if you've been involved in the occult, it doesn't matter if you've opened yourself up to all kinds of spiritual attacks and spiritual influence. Nothing is beyond the redemption of Jesus. Yeah. The the powers have been neutered. And really all that Jesus is doing is standing by and asking us to let him free us more and more, and he can do that.

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Man, Brian, this has been a great conversation. Um I'm really looking forward to the next one that we do, um, where we talk a little bit more about what we can do, um, even in our world today, as we understand what it means to live in God's kingdom now that we've been rescued and placed into. Um, the other thing I was just gonna encourage our listeners to is probably starting in the next episode, so episode 33 or 34, we are also going um visual. Um, so we're setting up a new studio where we're gonna be on camera.

SPEAKER_00 53:11

And I don't know if that's I don't know whether that's gonna be beneficial or detrimental. We'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

But um, we're actually gonna have that capability as well. If you're a visual person, um, I'll be giving you guys some more info on that where to catch us on YouTube. But um, yeah, again, as always, if any of the things that we're talking about impact you on a very personal level, we would love to hear from you. Uh, reach out to us through the link that's in the podcast. We would love to pray for you specifically if you give us prayer requests, and um, if you're really struggling with especially some of the things that we've talked about today, and you want to talk to us, um, we can make that happen as well. So, um, any other thoughts today, Brian?

SPEAKER_00 53:59

No, I don't think so. Thanks for listening, everybody.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Yep. Um, I agree. Thanks for listening. We hope you join us for the next episode. Um, take good care and God bless.