Episode 035 Dragons in the Bible, Part 1

Welcome back to the podcast. In this episode, we're kicking off Part 1 of a special two-part seminar where Bryan and Scott explore one of the Bible's most fascinating and misunderstood themes: dragons, sea monsters, serpents, and the chaotic creatures that appear throughout Scripture.

From the twisting serpent in Eden to Leviathan rising from the sea, the biblical authors repeatedly use powerful images of chaos creatures to tell a larger story about God's rule over creation. But what exactly do these creatures represent? Are they merely mythical symbols, echoes of ancient Near Eastern imagery, or do they play a deeper role in the Bible's portrayal of spiritual rebellion and cosmic conflict?

In Part 1, we'll lay the foundation by examining the ancient world behind these images, tracing the themes of chaos and order through the Old Testament, and exploring how dragons and sea monsters become symbols of forces opposed to God's good creation.

Whether you've encountered these passages before or are hearing about them for the first time, this seminar will help you see familiar biblical texts with fresh eyes. So grab your Bible and join us as we begin our journey into the strange and compelling world of dragons and chaos creatures in Scripture.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:17

Hey everyone, welcome to Project 108. This is Scott. I'm going to be your host today. Well, actually, both Brian and I are going to be your host today, but in a different type of a way. Today we're going to launch part one of a two-part series on dragons in the Bible. Recently, Brian and I hosted a seminar at our church that talked about chaos creatures, the Satan, serpents, and dragons within the Bible. So I hope that you're going to enjoy this episode. It's part one of two, and you're going to learn a lot about dragons and how they apply to your life today. Enjoy.

SPEAKER_08 0:55

Thanks for coming. This is a seminar all about dragons in the Bible. And so there's a really simple assertion that Scott and I want to make tonight, and that is that there are dragons in the Bible. When you think about those dragons, you might think about something like this. This is a form of a dragon that was given to me to very carefully use tonight by a friend of mine named Karen Coster. Some of you might know Karen. One of her sons bought this for her while she was in Japan. And so this is something that might be in your mind when you think of a dragon. Another picture that might be in your mind when you think of a dragon is something like Smaug from The Lord of the Rings. If you've seen that movie, the wings, and they talk and different things like that. And so what's really interesting about the scriptures is that they give us a picture of dragons that is actually a little broader than that. It's a little bit more of a category. And what the biblical authors do is use that category very intentionally to teach us some things about what God wants, not just for us, but for our world. And so those are the things that we're going to talk about this evening. But before we do that, I'm a pick on Brent Buller. Would you pray for us? Thank you. Because if I were to ask you to think of one dragon in the Bible, which one would you think of? Okay, the Satan. Yeah, the Satan. Now, now, where does the Satan show up as a dragon most vividly? Revelation. Right. In the book. Very good. That's good. In the book, in Revelation, particularly, Revelation chapter 3, there's this wild scene that's talked about. And so I just want to start reading this for you. It's on, you can turn to Revelation 12 if you have a copy of the scriptures. If you don't, it's right up here behind my head. It says this Then another sign appeared in heaven. There was a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on its head were seven crowns. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth, and the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that she so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child. You ski k skip down, keep reading to verse 7. It says, Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his archangels fought against the dragon. The dragon and his angels also fought, but he could not prevail, and there was no place for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was thrown out, the ancient serpent who is called the devil and Satan, the one who deceives the whole earth, he was thrown to earth and his angels with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say, The salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have now come, because the accuser of our brother and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been thrown down. They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony, for they did not love their lives to the point of death. Therefore, rejoice you heavens and you who dwell in them, woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you with great fury, because he knows his time is short. You keep reading, and there's this interaction where the dragon keeps chasing after the woman, the woman is taken away, and then in chapter 12, verse 18, there's this really key line. It says, The dragon stood on the sand of the sea. Okay. When we just talk to me a little bit, what were what was the description of the dragon in what we just read? How did those verses describe this dragon?

unknown 5:30

It was red.

SPEAKER_08 5:31

It was red. That's good. That's good. What else? Seven heads on the dragon. There's a big old tail on this dragon that's sweeping stars out of the sky and things like that. Ten horns. Very good. Very good. What what what names does this creature have in Revelation 12? There were several of them thrown out. The devil, Satan, serpent. This creature is called the dragon. The serpent of old. Okay, what's the dragon doing? What's the dragon's overall behavior in Revelation 12? Wants to eat the newborn? What else is the dragon doing? Fighting?

SPEAKER_05 6:22

Did I hear someone say that?

SPEAKER_08 6:23

Yeah? Good. Fighting? Warring against God? He's causing all sorts of chaos, right? Very last verse we read. Where does that dragon wind up standing? On the seashore. Okay. So who does this dragon seem to represent? Satan. Good. This dragon represents a spiritual being. Not just any spiritual being, but a rebellious spiritual being, in fact, the rebellious spiritual being, who is almost talked about in the Bible like he's the head, the exemplary of all other spiritual beings that have gone his direction. Now, this is at the end of the scriptures. Like this is the last writing of the scriptures. And if this is the only place that dragons show up, Scott and I are going to have a pretty short seminar. We're going to have to work really hard to fill these two hours. But what if I told you by now, if we're tracking with the scriptures from Genesis 1.1 until Revelation 12, what if I told you that this imagery should not be new to us? That in fact we should be very used to this imagery. In fact, what if I told you that the first place we see dragons in the Bible is actually on page 1? Let's go there. Genesis chapter 1, verse 23. Oh, no, sorry, 21. Okay. What I have in front of you is seven different English translations and a whole bunch of letters that most of us probably don't recognize because they're Hebrew. And I promise there's a reason for that, and we'll walk through it. Okay, but Genesis chapter 1, verse 21, I'm going to read, oh, how are you looking at it? I'm going to read the top left pane. Okay? Genesis 1, 21. So God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves and swarms in the water according to their kinds. What are large sea creatures?

unknown 8:31

The Loch Ness monster.

SPEAKER_08 8:33

The Loch Ness monster. My people. I've got Loch Ness. Oh, I had Loch Ness monster socks on earlier today, so I'm with you. I'm not kidding, I can show you them later. Whales, some people. Anyone else? Oh, Leviathan. Interesting take. Rich is on the right track. How many of you, when you have read this passage, God created the large sea creatures, you've thought of something like whale? Okay. Where are we sure that there is a creature that's at least similar to a whale? If you call it a whale and catch me on a bad day, I will rant at you that that's not what it actually was. But what story is there a creature like that? Jonah. Good. Jonah gets swallowed by a really big fish. Because there is a Hebrew word to talk about really big fish. And if you're an ancient person, what does a whale probably seem like? A really big fish. Because ancient people didn't really have different biological categories for mammals in the ocean compared to fish. Tracking with me? Okay. So here's what's really interesting. Can I teach you a little bit of Hebrew vocabulary? Because if you look at all seven of those English translations I have up there, except for one, six of them say the same thing. They say, God created large sea creatures. But if you look at this bottom pane over here, it says, so God created the great sea monsters. Sea monsters, where is it getting that? Well, here, let me show you. If you look in this pane with all the little scribbles, and you see that word that I have highlighted, the way that you would say that word in Hebrew is you would say, tanonim. Say that with me. Tanonim. That is the plural form of the Hebrew word tanin. And tanin can mean a couple of different things in the Old Testament. It can mean snake. It can just mean serpent. In fact, there are a few places in the Hebrew Bible where tanin very clearly means snake. It's used 14 different times, but never once in those 14 different times it's used does it refer to a whale. It seems to be referring to something much bigger and sinister than that. So let me show you another example. Psalm chapter 74, verse 13. It says, you divided the sea with your strength, you smashed the heads of the Tananim, of the sea monsters in the water. Okay, so in verse 13, Psalm 74 is a lament asking for God to free his people from oppression. And notice that there are things in the sea that have multiple heads. And notice that it's not a whale, it's a monster of some kind. And then look at verse 14. The monster actually gets a name. In verse 14, so it says in verse 13, you smashed the heads of the sea monsters in the water, you crushed the heads of Leviathan, you fed him to the creatures of the desert. This is what's called in Bible nerd talk. This is called parallelism, where you make one statement and then you say a parallel statement next, but you give a little bit of detail that clarifies it. And so what the author of this psalm just did is say, the Lord crushed the heads of the Tanin. In particular, he crushed the head of Leviathan. It's putting Leviathan, it's a named sea monster in the Bible. It has heads that the Lord crushes here. But where does Leviathan come from? Where does the tanine come from? Psalm 104 really helps with that. Psalm 104, if you read all of it, it is explicitly structured in reference to the seven-day creation narrative of Genesis 1. And here's what it says in verse 26. It says, the ships move about, and Leviathan which you formed played, and Leviathan which you formed to play there. Okay, what do you notice about that verse? Who created the monster that Yahweh crushed its heads in Psalm 74? Yahweh did. Yahweh created it. And if Psalm 104 is patterned after the biblical creation account, where in the world is the psalmist getting the idea that the Lord created Leviathan and put him in the sea? Well, it's because there are dragons in the Bible. There's one more wrinkle to throw in here. I want to teach you another Hebrew word. Ready? The Hebrew word is nahash. You got to clear your throat on the H, right? Right? Say it with me. Nahash. Good. So Nahash is the Hebrew word for snake. Anybody know the first place that word shows up in the Bible? Genesis 3. Yeah, very good. Somebody just say it with your chest tonight. You'll be fine, I promise. Genesis chapter 3. The serpent that has a conversation with Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 3 is a Nachosh. And what's interesting is if you keep refinding that word in the Hebrew Bible, Nachosh, over and over again, it seems to be referring to a snake. But then you have Isaiah chapter 27, verse 1. It says, at that time the Lord will punish with his destructive, great, and powerful sword Leviathan, the fleeing serpent. Leviathan, the twisting serpent. He will slay the monster that is in the sea. So here's what's really interesting. Isaiah 27, 1 calls Leviathan a Nahash. Not only does this call Leviathan a Nahash, but that word that's translated monster is our other word. It's the Hebrew word tanin. And then you have Amos chapter 9, verse 3. This is really cool. It says, even if they were to hide on the top of Mount Carmel, I would hunt them down and take them from there. Even if they tried to hide from me at the bottom of the sea, from there I would command the sea serpent to bite them. You want to know what that word, translated sea serpent, is, or the other ways that it might be translated up there? It's Nahash. So even this word that most of the time is referring to serpent or snake can have a bigger, monstrous understanding to it. And so what that might do is cause your imagination about what was happening in Genesis chapter 3 to look a little bit different than how you might have thought about it otherwise. And this carries throughout the Hebrew Bible, I'm convinced of. So what's really interesting is if you read Daniel chapter 7, Daniel chapter 7, there are all of these beasts that get described. And in Daniel 7, all of those beasts come up out of the water. Now, I don't have a smoking gun for you. It's not that the word tanin is used in Daniel 7, but here's what's really funny. You want to see how brilliant biblical authors are? It says, then a second beast appeared. Or another way that you could do that is suddenly another beast appeared, a second one. That word, second, in the Hebrew, is a word that has the exact same letters as the word for tanin. And it's the only time in the Hebrew Bible that word shows up, is in Daniel 7 in relation to these monsters. And so, even more, there was actually a around the end of the exile, when Israel had been sent into exile and then they come back into the land. Around that time, the Greek language had spread all over the ancient world. And so some Hebrew Bible nerds were given the assignment to translate the Hebrew Bible into Greek. And when they came across this word for either Leviathan or they came across the word tanin, they translated it with a Greek word. And that Greek word was drakon. It's literally the word that we get our English word dragon from. And then the image is carried over at least into Revelation. So what in the world is going on here? I think what I've done is I've shown you so far that dragons are running around in the Bible much more than just in Revelation 12. They're showing up in other places as well. So what's going on? Why are there dragons in the Bible? Did people actually think that there were multiple-headed sea monsters swimming around out there? We're not 100% sure, but here's what we do know. In ancient cultures, dragons ran rampant, at least in people's imaginations. I'm not saying literally. What I'm saying is if you look at Israel's neighbors in the ancient world, you look at the Assyrians, you look at the Babylonians, you look at the Persians, the Seleucids, you name it, all of those cultures around Israel had stories about dragons. And those dragons would fight with the gods in epic battles. And most of the time the gods would come out on top, but every once in a while there was this big bad dragon that got the worst of the gods, and then the god would have to come back to life and try to kill the dragon again. In fact, most ancient cultures believed that this battle between the gods and creatures that caused chaos were a yearly thing. Where in the spring every year, I think it was in Assyrian and Babylonian culture, in the spring every year there was a celebration of the thunder god, the sky god, defeating the dragon at the end of winter when the seasons changed. And so what the biblical authors are doing is they're taking a theme that is very familiar to the audience around them, and they're riffing on it in ways that everyone around them would understand, but they're also critiquing the way that those people would understand it and using it in a way to help shape people's minds. And here's what I find really fascinating. I was so glad that Karen brought this to me, not just because I got to have this cool thing sit in my office all week long. Um, but here's the thing that I was that I think is really, really interesting. Uh Karen bought this thing, Karen's son bought this thing in Japan. There are there is ancient Japanese literature from uh from around the time of the Hebrew Bible that is littered with imagery of things like this. We know that things like this were part of the imagery of other cultures, like Norse culture and different things like that as well. And so there's man, there's just this weird, unexplainable, transcendent thing that we as humans have this capacity to dream up things like this. And it was no different in the ancient world. But um, what Scott and I want to do with the rest of our time together this evening is show you what the biblical authors do with this idea that is really different and actually really cool and teaches us something about Jesus. All of that time was meant for me just to establish for you that there are dragons in the Bible, and that they play a vital role in the story, and that the role that they play in the story actually has something to say for our lives today. And we're gonna do our best to show you that for the rest of the time. Questions? So what Deb just asked is were ancient people thinking of these creatures as gods themselves? Possibly. It's also I think that the biblical authors are using chaos creatures like this to picture something bigger than just the creature itself, to picture something heavenly. I think that's why the dragon image. gets applied to the spiritual being that we know as the Satan.

unknown 22:16

Secondly, they are considered good.

SPEAKER_09 22:18

Yeah.

unknown 22:19

They have the they consider them beneficial.

SPEAKER_09 22:23

That's why they have dragon festivals and all these other things going on.

SPEAKER_11 22:27

So it's interesting how the concept changes in different places.

SPEAKER_08 22:31

Yep. Yeah, so what Jim is pointing out is really important. He's pointing out that dragons are a concept that seemed to exist in ancient cultures as far back as we can tell of cultures that never intermingled and things like that. But the function of dragons is different in those cultures because like Jim said, and Jim can say that Jim can say that with his chest because the dude lived in China for a while. So if you want to know more about China and dragons, go talk to Jim. He'd love to talk to you about it. But in China, dragons are more considered good luck. And they don't breathe fire. When you and I think about dragons, we think about one head. But you could see that the dragons in here they had multiple heads at least these these monsters did at least the Viathan did. Which any of you who are Greek mythology nuts, you are thinking of hydras at the time because that's a dragon-like character that exists in Greek culture. But here's what I want you to realize in the ancient Mediterranean world, especially ancient Near East, these things weren't good luck. They were bad. They were creatures of chaos which is why the Bible does some really cool things with them that Scott's going to talk about that I'm not going to spoil for him.

SPEAKER_06 23:46

Any other questions? Comments? Stuff I can help with you.

SPEAKER_08 24:26

You're saying that it was not a story it was that's not what I'm saying. So Deb is bringing up a really good point. I'm gonna just go full force into this one. I was gonna see whether I had to or not I have to so let's do it. Sorry Nope you're good. So what Deb what Deb is saying is that she has heard that a lot of people who spend a lot of time on the ocean would use chaos sea monsters as a way to describe how difficult fishing can be. And so here's what I would say to you because the question that might be rattling around in some of your brains is did the authors of the Bible and did ancient people believe that there was actually a creature out there with several heads called the Viathan that was messing stuff up? Did they were they talking about dinosaurs? Like these are some of the questions that we ask and I'm here to tell you that we don't know. We don't know. What we do know at the very least is that what ancient people did was use these dragons to talk about common human experiences in order to help make sense of them. It's a very similar thing to what we do in our day and age. We have stories that we tell children to help them make sense of their goldfish dying and being flushed down the toilet and things like that. Like circle of life stuff think Simba and Mufasa if any of you are remember that movie. And so at the very least at the very least that's how dragons and sea monsters and chaos creatures seem to function in the scriptures. We got you a whole bet girl thanks for coming this is a seminar all about dragons in the Bible and so there's a really simple assertion that Scott and I want to make tonight and that is that there are dragons in the Bible when you think about those dragons you might think about something like this this is a form of a dragon that was given to me to very carefully use tonight by a friend of mine named Karen Koster. Some of you might know Karen. One of her sons bought this for her while she was in Japan. And so this is uh something that might be in your mind when you think of a dragon. Another picture that might be in your mind when you think of a dragon is something like Smaug from the Lord of the Rings if you've seen that movie, the wings and they talk and different things like that. And so what's really interesting about the scriptures is that they give us a picture of dragons that is actually a little broader than that. It's a little bit more of a category and what the biblical authors do is use that category very intentionally to teach us some things about what God wants not just for us but for our world. And so those are the things that we're going to talk about this evening but before we do that I'm gonna pick on Brent Buller would you pray for us thank you if I were to ask you because the the take that there are dragons in the Bible really isn't all that hot of a take because if I were to ask you to think of one dragon in the Bible which one would you think of okay the Satan yeah the Satan now where does the Satan show up as a dragon most vividly Revelation right in the book very good that's good in in the book in Revelation particularly Revelation chapter 3 there's this wild scene that's talked about. And so I just want to start reading this for you it's on you can turn to Revelation 12 if you have a copy of the scriptures. If you don't it's right up here behind my head it says this then another sign appeared in heaven there was a great fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns and on its head were seven crowns its tail swept away a third of the stars in heaven and hurled them to the earth and the dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth so that she so that when she did give birth it might devour her child. You skip down keep reading to verse 7 it says Then war broke out in heaven Michael and his archangels fought against the dragon the dragon and his angels also fought but he could not prevail and there was no place for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was thrown out the ancient serpent who is called the devil and Satan the one who deceives the whole earth he was thrown to earth and his angels with him then I heard a loud voice in heaven say the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have now come because the accuser of our brother and sisters who accuses them before our God day and night has been thrown down. They conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony for they did not love their lives to the point of death. Therefore rejoice you heavens and you who dwell in them woe to the earth and the sea because the devil has come down to you with great fury because he knows his time is short. You keep reading and there's this interaction where the dragon keeps chasing after the woman the woman is taken away and then in chapter 12 verse 18 there's this really key line it says the dragon stood on the sand of the sea okay when we just talk to me a little bit what were what was the description of the dragon and what we just read how did those verses describe this dragon it was red it was red that's good that's good what else seven heads on the dragon there's a big old tail on this dragon that's sweeping stars out of the sky and things like that. Ten horns very good very good what what what names does this creature have in Revelation 12? There were several of them thrown out the devil Satan serpent the this creature is called the dragon the serpent of old okay what's the dragon doing what's the dragon's overall behavior in Revelation 12 wants to eat the newborn what else is the dragon doing fighting?

SPEAKER_05 31:44

Did I hear someone say that?

SPEAKER_08 31:46

Yeah good fighting warring against God he's causing all sorts of chaos right very last verse we read where does that dragon wind up standing? On the seashore. Okay so who does this dragon seem to represent Satan good this this dragon represents a spiritual being not just any spiritual being but a rebellious spiritual being in fact the rebellious spiritual being who is almost talked about in the Bible like he's the head, the exemplary of all other spiritual beings that have gone his direction. Now this is at the end of the scriptures like this is the last writing of the scriptures and if this is the only place that dragons show up, Scott and I are going to have a pretty short seminar. We're gonna have to work really hard to fill these two hours but what if I told you by now if we're tracking with the scriptures from Genesis 1.1 until Revelation 12 what if I told you that this imagery should not be new to us? That in fact we should be very used to this imagery. In fact what if I told you that the first place we see dragons in the Bible is actually on page one let's go there. Genesis chapter one verse 23 21 okay what I have in front of you is seven different English translations and a whole bunch of letters that most of us probably don't recognize because they're Hebrew. And I promise there's a reason for that and we'll walk through it. Okay but Genesis chapter 1 verse 21 I'm going to read oh how are you looking at it I'm gonna read the top left pane okay Genesis 1 21 so God created the large sea creatures and every living creature that moves and swarms in the water according to their kinds what are large sea creatures the Lochness monster the Loch Ness monster my people I've got Loch Ness oh I had Loch Ness monster socks on earlier today so I'm with you. I'm not kidding I can show you them later whales some people anyone else oh Leviathan interesting take Rich is on the right track how many of you when you have read this passage God created the large sea creatures you've thought of something like whale okay where are we sure that there is a creature that's at least similar to a whale if you call it a whale and catch me on a bad day I will rant at you that that's not what it actually was. But what story is there a creature like that? Jonah good Jonah gets swallowed by a really big fish because there is a Hebrew word to talk about really big fish. And if you're an ancient person what does a whale probably seem like a really big fish because ancient people didn't really have different biological categories for mammals in the ocean compared to fish. Tracking with me? Okay so here's what's really interesting can I teach you a little bit of Hebrew vocabulary because if you look at all seven of those English translations I have up there except for one six of them say the same thing. They say God created large sea creatures but if you look at this bottom pane over here it says so God created the great sea monsters sea monsters where is it getting that? Well here let me show you these this if you look in this pane with all the little scribbles and you see that word that I have highlighted the way that you would say that word in Hebrew is you would say tananim. Say that with me. Tananim that is the plural form of the Hebrew word tan mean a couple of different things in the Old Testament. It can mean snake it can just mean serpent. In fact there are a few places in the Hebrew Bible where tanin very clearly means snake. It's used 14 different times but never once in those 14 different times it's used does it refer to a whale it seems to be referring to something much bigger and sinister than that. So let me show you another example Psalm chapter 74 verse 13 it says you divided the sea with your strength, you smashed the heads of the Tananim, of the sea monsters in the water. Okay, so in verse 13 Psalm 74 is a lament asking for God to free his people from oppression and notice that there are things in the sea that have multiple heads and notice that it's not a whale it's a monster of some kind. And then look at verse 14. The monster actually gets a name in verse 14 it's so it says in verse 13 you smashed the heads of the sea monsters in the water you crushed the heads of Leviathan you fed him to the creatures of the desert. This is what's called in Bible nerd talk this is called parallelism where you make one statement and then you say a parallel statement next but you give a little bit of detail that clarifies it. And so what the author of this psalm just did is say the Lord crushed the heads of the Tanin. In particular he crushed the head of Leviathan it's putting Leviathan it's a named sea monster in the Bible it has heads that the Lord crushes here but where does Leviathan come from where does the tanine come from Psalm 104 really helps with that. Psalm 104 if you read all of it it is explicitly structured in reference to the seven-day creation narrative of Genesis 1 and here's what it says in verse 26 it says the ships move about and Leviathan which you formed play and Leviathan which you formed to play there. Okay what do you notice about that verse? Who created the monster that Yahweh crushed its heads in Psalm 74 Yahweh did. Yahweh created it and if Psalm 104 is patterned after the biblical creation account where in the world is the psalmist getting the idea that the Lord created Leviathan and put him in the sea well it's because there are dragons in the Bible there's one more wrinkle to throw in here I want to teach you another Hebrew word ready? The Hebrew word is nah you got to clear your throat on the H, right? Right? Say it with me. Nachosh good so nahosh is the Hebrew word for snake anybody know the first place that word shows up in the Bible? Genesis 3. Yeah very good somebody just say it with your chest tonight you'll be fine I promise Genesis chapter 3 the serpent that has a conversation with Adam and Eve in Genesis chapter 3 is a Nachosh. And what's interesting is if you keep refinding that word in the Hebrew Bible Nachosh over and over again it seems to be referring to a snake but then you have Isaiah chapter 27 verse 1 it says at that time the Lord will punish with his destructive great and powerful sword Leviathan the fleeing serpent Leviathan the twisting serpent he will slay the monster that is in the sea. So here's what's really interesting Isaiah 271 calls Leviathan a nahash not only does this call Leviathan a Nahash but that word that's translated monster is our other word. It's the Hebrew word tanin. And then you have Amos chapter 9 verse 3 this is really cool it says even if they were to hide on the top of Mount Carmel, I would hunt them down and take them from there. Even if they tried to hide from me at the bottom of the sea, from there I would command the sea serpent to bite them. You want to know what that word translated sea serpent is or the other ways that it might be translated up there? It's Nahash. So even this word that most of the time is referring to serpent or snake can have a bigger monstrous understanding to it. And so what that might do is cause your imagination about what was happening in Genesis chapter 3 to look a little bit different than how you might have thought about it otherwise. And so what's and this carries throughout the Hebrew Bible I'm convinced of so what's really interesting is if you read Daniel chapter 7, Daniel chapter 7, there are all of these beasts that get described. And in Daniel 7 all of those beasts come up out of the water now I don't have a smoking gun for you it's not that the word tanin is used in Daniel 7 but here's what's really funny you want to see how brilliant biblical authors are it says then a second beast appeared or another way that you could do that is suddenly another beast appeared a second one. That word second in the Hebrew is a word that has the exact same letters as the word for tanin and it's the only time in the Hebrew Bible that word shows up is in Daniel 7 in relation to these monsters and so even more there was actually a around the end of the exile when Israel had been sent into exile and then they come back into the land around that time the Greek language had spread all over the ancient world. And so some Hebrew Bible nerds were given the assignment to translate the Hebrew Bible into Greek and when they came across this word for either Leviathan or they came across the word tanim they translated it with a Greek word. And that Greek word was drakon. It's literally the word that we get our English word dragon from and then the image is carried over at least into Revelation. So what in the world is going on here I think I think what I've done is I've shown you so far that dragons are running around in the Bible much more than just in Revelation 12. They're showing up in other places as well so what's going on? Why are there dragons in the Bible? Did people actually think that there were multiple headed sea monsters swimming around out there? We're not a hundred percent sure but here's what we do know in ancient cultures dragons ran rampant at least in people's imaginations I'm not saying literally what I'm saying is if you look at Israel's neighbors in the ancient world you look at the Assyrians you look at the Babylonians you look at the Persians the Seleucids you name it all of those cultures around Israel had stories about dragons and those dragons would fight with the gods in epic battles and most of the time the gods would come out on top but every once in a while there was this big battle Dragon that got the worst of the gods, and then the god would have to come back to life and try to kill the dragon again. In fact, most ancient cultures believed that this battle between the gods and creatures that caused chaos were a yearly thing. Where in the spring every year, I think it was in Assyrian and Babylonian culture, in the spring every year, there was a celebration of the thunder god, the sky god, defeating the dragon at the end of winter when the seasons changed. And so what the biblical authors are doing is they're taking a theme that is very familiar to the audience around them, and they're riffing on it in ways that everyone around them would understand, but they're also critiquing the way that those people would understand it and using it in a way to help shape people's minds. And here's what I find really fascinating. I was so glad that Karen brought this to me, not just because I got to have this cool thing sit in my office all week long. But here's the thing that I was that I think is really, really interesting. Karen bought this thing, Karen's son bought this thing in Japan. There is ancient Japanese literature from around the time of the Hebrew Bible that is littered with imagery of things like this. We know that things like this were part of the imagery of other cultures, like Norse culture and different things like that as well. And so there's, man, there's just this weird, unexplainable, transcendent thing that we as humans have this capacity to dream up things like this. And it was no different in the ancient world. But what Scott and I want to do with the rest of our time together this evening is show you what the biblical authors do with this idea that is really different and actually really cool and teaches us something about Jesus. All of that time was meant for me just to establish for you that there are dragons in the Bible, and that they play a vital role in the story, and that the role that they play in the story actually has something to say for our lives today. And we're gonna do our best to show you that for the rest of the time. Questions? Goddamn. So what Deb just asked is were ancient people thinking of these creatures as gods themselves? Possibly. It's also I think that the biblical authors are using chaos creatures like this to picture something bigger than just the creature itself, to picture something heavenly. I think that's why the dragon imagery gets applied to the spiritual being that we know as the Satan. Go ahead, Jim.

unknown 47:29

One of the things about aging dragons is number one, they don't need water in their modern law. Okay, ours do. Yep. Secondly, they're considered good luck.

SPEAKER_09 47:41

Yeah.

unknown 47:41

They have the consider them beneficial.

SPEAKER_09 47:45

That's why they have dragon festivals, all these other things going on.

SPEAKER_11 47:49

So it's interesting how the concept changes in different places.

SPEAKER_08 47:53

Yep. Yeah, so what Jim is pointing out is really important. He's pointing out that dragons are a concept that seemed to exist in ancient cultures as far back as we can tell, of cultures that never intermingled and things like that, but the function of dragons is different in those cultures. Because, like Jim said, and Jim can say that, Jim can say that with his chest because the dude lived in China for a while. So if you want to know more about China and dragons, go talk to Jim. He'd love to talk to you about it. But in China, dragons are more considered good luck. And they don't breathe fire. When you and I think about dragons, we think about one head. But you could see that the dragons in here, they had multiple heads. At least these monsters did, at least the Viathan did. Which any of you who are Greek mythology nuts, you are thinking of hydras at the time, because that's a dragon-like character that exists in Greek culture. But here's what I want you to realize: in the ancient Mediterranean world, especially the ancient Near East, these things weren't good luck. They were bad. They were creatures of chaos. Which is why the Bible does some really cool things with them that Scott's going to talk about that I'm not going to spoil for him. Any other questions?

SPEAKER_06 49:11

Comments? Stuff I can help with?

unknown 49:43

A story made up and explained the data.

SPEAKER_07 49:48

Yep. Yep.

SPEAKER_08 49:49

You're saying that it was not a story.

unknown 49:52

It was a two creature.

SPEAKER_08 49:54

That's not what I'm saying. So Deb is bringing up a really good point. I'm gonna just go full force into this one. I was gonna see whether I had to or not. I have to, so let's do it.

unknown 50:02

Sorry.

SPEAKER_08 50:03

Nope, you're good. So what Deb what Deb is saying is that she has heard that a lot of people who spend a lot of time on the ocean would use chaos sea monsters as a way to describe how difficult fishing can be. And so here's what I would say to you. Because the question that might be rattling around in some of your brains is did the authors of the Bible and did ancient people believe that there was actually a creature out there with several heads called the Viathan that was messing stuff up? Did they, were they talking about dinosaurs? Like these are some of the questions that we ask. And I'm here to tell you that we don't know. We don't know. What we do know at the very least is that what ancient people did was use these dragons to talk about common human experiences in order to help make sense of them. It's a very similar thing to what we do in our day and age. We have stories that we tell children to help them make sense of their goldfish dying and being flushed down the toilet and things like that, like circle of life stuff. Think Simba and Mufasa, if any of you are remember that movie. And so at the very least, at the very least, that's how dragons and sea monsters and chaos creatures seem to function in the scriptures.

SPEAKER_00 51:32

Okay, everyone, we're gonna go ahead and wrap up the first of the two-part series on dragons right here at this point. I hope that you found this enlightening, that you're beginning to think more and more about the dragons within the scriptures, kind of what they mean, what they meant to the original audiences, and what they might mean for us today. If you have any questions on this, uh go ahead and connect with us. There's a link through the um there's a link in the podcast description that you're able to do that, and we'll get that message. And if you have any questions on this, please let us know. But in the meantime, I hope that you'll plan on joining us for the next episode, part two of our series on dragons. Take good care and God bless.