Episode 036 Dragons in the Bible Part 2

Welcome back to the podcast and to Part 2 of our seminar on dragons and chaos creatures in the Bible. In our previous session, Bryan and Scott explored the ancient imagery behind the Bible's dragons, sea monsters, and serpents, tracing how these creatures symbolize chaos, rebellion, and opposition to God's purposes throughout the Old Testament.

In this episode, we pick up the story and follow these themes through the rest of Scripture. We'll examine how the prophets use dragon imagery to describe arrogant nations and spiritual powers, how Jesus confronts the forces of chaos through his life, death, and resurrection, and how the Bible's final vision in Revelation brings the dragon's story to its dramatic conclusion.

Along the way, we'll discover that these creatures are far more than strange biblical curiosities. They help tell one unified story about God's victory over evil, the defeat of the powers that threaten creation, and the hope of a renewed world where chaos and death no longer reign.

Thanks for joining us for the conclusion of this seminar. Grab your Bible, and let's dive into Part 2 of Dragons and Chaos Creatures in Scripture.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. This is Scott. Today we are continuing on with part two of the series that we began with our last episode on dragons in the Bible. Once again, if you didn't catch that one, I'd encourage you to go and listen to it. But this is based on a seminar that Brian and I hosted at our church where we delve into the subject of dragons in the scriptures and chaos creatures. So I hope you enjoy. Okay, I have a question for you guys today. How many of you know what this is? All right. What what's this called? Dot to dot. Alright. So if you're not a boomer or maybe a millennial, you do not know what this is. How many of you grew up with something like this? How many of you have no idea what this? Okay, Brian's a millennial, so I have to try to. Okay. Um I grew up with data dots. Like I remember going to restaurants and on the kids' menu, they would have data dots. Like, I don't know where that was. They still do.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

All right, we'll we'll figure that out. But like I distinctly remember like an armadillo and a cowboy hat, and I cannot remember what restaurant that was from.

unknown 1:49

It's not big boy.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

No earthly idea. But like so the reason that I give you a dot to dot of a dragon isn't if you get bored and you have something to do, but you can. If the biblical authors had dot to dot, I'm pretty sure they would love it. Because they are seemingly making connections throughout the scriptures, they're connecting dots with themes. Let me give you an example. Like there is the theme of being delivered through water. Okay, if I was to tell you the story of Noah's Ark, that wouldn't be an example of God's people being delivered through water. Could you give me another one? The Red Sea, um, literally the Sea of Reeds with the Exodus, right? Um, God brings his people, he delivers them through water. That's a dot that's getting connected. Is there another story of water delivery? Call me the Sea of Galilee, yep. Huh?

unknown 2:57

Joshua.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Joshua, when he goes into the Promised Land, actually enters from the east and goes across the Jordan River. Um, and the scriptures are full of connected dots when it comes to the authors, and we need to be careful with it because sometimes we don't want to force that issue either. Like, for example, when we talk about waters of chaos, um, chaotic waters represent this theme that's throughout the scripture of God's deliverance through chaos waters. But on the other hand, not all water is chaos, is it? It's uh water is good for life, it's it's good, and so we need to be careful. Um, one of the ones that I haven't had time to unpack yet, but I was listening to a podcast that was really interesting, has to do with the Apostle Paul. So Saul was uh before he was converted by Jesus on the road to Damascus. Many of us are familiar with this story. He was he doing good things for the kingdom or was he doing chaotic things for the kingdom? Bad, chaotic things, right? Um I don't know why on this dragon's back. That would not be good. Um he's doing chaotic things. Um what happened to him on the road to Damascus? He saw Jesus, he saw the light, and he was blinded. Do you remember how it describes him in the book of Acts? He had something like what? Scales on his eyes. Interesting, right? When you look at that word scales, you can find dots connected. Because one of the reasons that scales, I think, is used, and I haven't had a lot of time to research this yet, and if you want to, it could be fun, but like it describes the scales of a serpent in a different part of the Bible, and so it seemingly is connecting the fact that Paul was doing snaky things, chaotic things, against the kingdom, and when he met Jesus, that changed, and he no longer was doing snaky things or dragon-y things, he began to work for the Lord. So again, um that seemingly would be a dot, and the authors of scripture um are going about the business of connecting dots when it comes to chaos creatures and to dragons as well. And we see this in many different passages. So, for example, um they actually refer the authors of the scriptures to some people as tanines, as dragons. Like there are people that are doing such chaotic things that they are they're actually rivaling the kingdom of God and they're doing bad things. So, what I want to talk about for just a little bit is the way that dragons relate to other people and a couple of other things as well. And I'm gonna ask you to track with me a little bit through some stories that we may know in the Old Testament, but we want to look at a couple of people that were actually called dragons in the Bible. And so the first one that I want to take a look at is Pharaoh. Okay, so a little backdrop, a little history. What's going on with Pharaoh in the book of Exodus? So, what's going on is that all of a sudden God's people have been in Egypt for quite a long time. They're flourishing, they're growing into quite a nation there, and Pharaoh sees the goodness of God's flourishing people, and he decides to do something about it, right? He doesn't like God's kingdom flourishing, he doesn't like these people prospering, and so he's gonna take a look at the whole situation and he's gonna do something really interesting, and there are dots that connect back to the original story of Eden as well. In Exodus chapter 1, verses 10 to 14. I've highlighted a couple words here because I want to talk about them for just a little bit, but we read, come, let's deal shrewdly with them. This is Pharaoh talking about, you know, the prospering Jewish nation. Otherwise, they will multiply further, and when war breaks out, they will join our enemies, fight against us, and leave the country. Okay, all right, well, that's kind of like worst-case scenario, right? Like he's just like freaking out. God's doing something good to his people, he doesn't like it, so he's gonna do something about it. So the Egyptians go on, and it says that they assigned taskmasters over all the Israelites to oppress them with forced labor. But the more they oppressed them, the more they multiplied and spread, so that the Egyptians came to dread the Israelites. They worked the Israelites ruthlessly and made their lives bitter with difficult labor in brick and mortar and all kinds of field work. They ruthlessly imposed all this work on them. Interesting. So bad case scenario, right? Pharaoh sees all God's people are growing and they're being blessed, and so they take action against God's people, and they they give them a miserable life in reaction to what they saw as God blessing his people. Now, there are some thematic connections about what's going on here, all the way back to the book of Genesis. Um, in Genesis 3:1, um we learned now remember, we learned that Satan was uh a dragon. Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. That word cunning and that word shrewdly are the same word. And so I think what's going on here is um the authors are just kind of painting a portrait like two very similar situations are going on. In the beginning of creation, everything was good, and God's people were walking with him and talking with him, and the Satan, the enemy, the serpent, the dragon, saw that and he decided that he didn't like that, and so he at that time, I guess, acted shrewdly, acted wisely with wisdom to go ahead and plan against that flourishing. And it says here in Exodus that Pharaoh did the same thing. They're making a connection. He sees all that God is doing and it's good and it's wonderful, but he decides he wants a different thing to happen, which kind of is the basis of sin, isn't it? When we want different things to happen in our lives rather than what God wants to happen. And he takes action on it. He actually plans it and you know he acts shrewdly. This is kind of similar to that same word that we find in uh Ephesians 6, 11, right? You put on the armor of God to act against the schemes of the devil. And so that same thought is there as well that the devil and Satan, the dragon, is scheming and planning and acting shrewdly against us, and that's exactly what happened to Pharaoh as well. Then we go on a little bit further in Genesis 3.23. The Lord sent him away from the garden. This is again what happened to man and to women. Uh he sent them away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which uh he was taken. That's interesting as well because that's the same thing that we see going on with Pharaoh when he oppresses uh the Jewish nation. Uh, he has them do field work, that's a great connection to going away from the garden, out into the wilderness. The wilderness is another scene of chaos throughout the scriptures as well. And the fact that he ruthlessly imposed work upon him, well, that was actually the same result of the fall, that they were to go and work in the fields, in the wilderness, away from the garden. So, all this to say, the authors of the scripture are making a thematic connection that Pharaoh is doing dragon y things. He's doing snaky things, things that are chaotic. If you think of chaos as the opposite of God's kingdom program, then Pharaoh was certainly following um Satan and his rebellion against the people. Does that make sense? Okay. Kind of interesting, huh? So then uh we go a little bit further in the scriptures, and some of the prophetic authors saw it this way as well. We have Ezekiel, for example. Ezekiel, um, who was a contemporary with Jeremiah and contemporary with Daniel, um, they served the kingdom of Israel and Judah during the time when the Babylonians came in and captured them. He looks back at who Pharaoh was and he says this of him Son of man, face Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and prophesy against him and against all of Egypt. Speak to him and say, This is what the Lord God says. Look, I am against you, Pharaoh, king of Egypt, the great monster lying in the middle of the Nile, who says, My Nile is my own, and I made it for myself. Does that sound familiar with what we're talking about? That's our word tan again. He calls Pharaoh a tanin, he calls him a dragon, a great sea monster. Uh he goes on. This is actually pretty funny. Uh I will put hooks in your jaws and make the fish of your streams cling to your scales. Again, we have some imagery going on here. I will haul you up from the middle of the Nile, and all the fish of the streams will cling to your scales. I will leave you in the desert, you and all the fish of your streams. You will fall on open ground, it will not be taken away or gathered for burial. I have given you the wild creatures of the earth and the birds of the sky as food, then all the inhabitants of Egypt will know that I am the Lord. So even though he's describing Pharaoh as a dragon, we still know who's in charge. And that is extremely comforting for today as well, right? If it ever seems to us like chaos is reigning right now, and that certain leaders of the world are in control, uh, everybody still remains under our God and in control by him as well. And uh Ezekiel goes on a little bit further and he calls Pharaoh this again. He says, Son of man, lament for Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and say to him, You compare yourself to a lion of the nations, but you are like a monster in the seas. You thrash about in the rivers, churn up the waters with your feet, and muddy the rivers. Again, there's that word tanin. So it's interesting that the authors of Scripture are talking about something where sometimes human beings and sometimes even rulers of nations can be referred to as dragons because they create chaos, they create systems that go against what the Lord would have in his kingdom plan. We're gonna talk a little bit more about that in a few minutes. But so far, so good? Makes sense? Any questions on this? Okay, let's look at another example. Uh Nebuchadnezzar and Babylon. Okay, um, again, Jeremiah was a contemporary of Ezekiel when the Babylonian captivity happened, uh, 597. Did I get that right? Is that the year? Um BC and the Babylonians came in, and what happened was uh he was witness to some of the wholesale idolatry of the nation of Israel. It got to such a horrific point that God said, I'm gonna take the worst nation that's around, Babylon and the Babylonians, and I'm gonna take them and use them against not only Israel to lead them into captivity for 70 years, but they're also gonna go against a lot of the other nations around you and wage war against them. And so Jeremiah saw all this unfold. Um, unlike Ezekiel, Ezekiel gets captured in the Babylonian captivity. He's taken away to Babylon and Mesopotamia, and um Jeremiah, however, he's he gets like kidnapped and taken away by some of his buddies to Egypt, so he doesn't really go into captivity. But yeah, you got a question? Yeah. Okay, great question. He's asking if Daniel was also part of that, and you're right, um, Daniel was kind of like royalty that was taken away, and he served in the in the palace compounds of um the kings of Babylon, and he was also a contemporary at that time. So we don't know if they ever met, you know. Um maybe Jeremiah met Ezekiel, we don't know, but um they're all around kind of at that same time with Daniel. Good observation. So anyway, um, Jeremiah's seeing all this unfold, he's just heartbroken. That's why you have um right after the book of Jeremiah, you have lamentations. He's just lamenting over the destruction of you know his nation and God's people. But then at the end of Jeremiah, God says, Well, even though I used you Babylon to be my rod and my weapon to insert justice against some of these nations, he says, You're not going to get away with it either, because you guys are evil. And so he has stuff to say against Nebuchadnezzar, King Nebuchadnezzar, and Babylon at the end of Jeremiah. And here's what he said, and this is really interesting as well. He says, For this is what the Lord of armies, the God of Israel, says Daughter Babylon is like a threshing floor at the time it is trampled. In just a little while her harvest time will come. King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon has devoured me, he crushed me, he has set me aside like an empty dish, he has swallowed me like a dragon, a sea monster. There's our word tanin again. Um he filled his belly with my delicacies, he has vomited me out. And then a little bit farther, he makes another interesting statement. He says, I will punish Bel in Babylon, I will make him vomit out what he swallowed. The nations will no longer stream to him, even Babylon's wall will fall. So, on the one hand, he's saying, King Nebuchadnezzar, who's a dragon, uh, has vomited me out, but then in the same breath, seemingly, he goes on to say, Um, Bel in Babylon will be the one that will vomit me out. So, what's going on here? Is it King Nebuchadnezzar, who's the dragon, or is it Bel, whoever Bel is, in Babylon? Well, I think what's going on here is Bel was the high deity in Mesopotamian religion. Okay, he was also known as Marduk, and Bel was his Akkadian title, which meant Lord, and that he was worthy to be worshipped. I think what the authors are doing here is they're making a connection of that which is above to that which is below. He's saying not only was there this man, this human being named Nebuchadnezzar, who's a dragon, but he's also being influenced by something else, an unseen spiritual being. And we talked a little bit about this in the Giants seminar that we did. We talk about it on the podcast a little bit, but I think the authors are making a connection because we believe that there are supernatural beings, unseen beings, that are seeking to influence humanity. They're seeking to do dragony things and snakey things in order to wreak chaos in God's good kingdom plan. And he's making a connection. I'll talk a little bit more about Bell in a little while, but um I think that's what's going on there. Okay, um, we doing good with that? Are any questions on that? It's pretty intriguing when you start to think about it. Okay, so if that's how dragons interact with some specific human beings and with some certain countries, we have to ask ourselves, how does it look like when they interact with the entire world? Okay, um, because the Bible also describes how dragons will one day, in my opinion, run rampant as chaos agents in the world. And for this, we want to go to the book of Revelation again. So we determined already in Revelation 12 that the dragon who was Satan was mentioned there. So I'm gonna pick up there. Revelation 12, 17. So the dragon was furious with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep the commands of God and hold firmly to the testimony about Jesus. So remember, um, there's gonna be some superlative language here. The dragon is waging war with um humans. I need to need my Bible a second. And um it's gonna seemingly get really bad really quick, okay? Now look at some of the superlative language that's here. Um, war will escalate to a global scale. I mean, like, no pun intended with the dragon thing with the scales, but like it's gonna be huge and big, okay? So um let's look at Revelation 13, 3. One of its heads appeared to be fatally wounded, but its fatal wound was healed. The whole earth was amazed and followed the beast. That's pretty superlative language, like the whole earth. And 13, a little bit farther in verses 7 and 8. And it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer the nation. All the um, I'm sorry, it was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them. It was also given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation, all those that live on the earth. Where have we heard that phrase before? Um every tribe, people, language, and nation. Does that sound familiar? Okay. If you go backwards a little bit in Revelation to chapter 7, and I don't have it up on the screen, it's interesting because it's almost identical language. In Revelation chapter 7, we have an amazing scene where there is like this gathering of multitudes who are worshiping the Lord. And in verse 9 it says, After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language. Very similar language that's being used here. And I think what the author of Revelation was talking about is like, even though it seems like dragons and chaos creatures and those that follow them will run rampant over the whole earth, and the whole earth will be impacted. And Jesus is still going to redeem people from that same whole earth, from every tribe, from every language, from every tongue, from every ethnos, people are going to be rescued because God is the one who's going to win in the end. And so even though it may seem hopeless and there's this vast global scale of things going on, Jesus will still prevail. 1312 says it exercises all the authority of the first beast, and on behalf of it compels the earth and those who live in it to worship the first beast whose fatal wound was healed. Now, Deb, do you have a question? When? So Deb is asking when this will happen. The answer is I don't know. There is a great part of a message that I heard like just this morning that kind of leaned into that a little bit. Where um there are as kind of a cop out. But um uh there are things, yeah. Yeah. So again, there's a couple schools of thought on it um within Christianity. Um some people would claim that that has already happened. Uh there are people that will claim there is a future view to what is about to happen. And um I'm gonna actually go to the next verse because it's gonna help answer that. If you hold to the fact that Matthew chapter 24 is also talking about the same course of events that happened in Revelation, it can seem like it's gonna be absolutely hopeless. Um in Matthew 24 it says, for at a time there will be great distress, that kind that hasn't taken place from the beginning of the world until now and never will again. Unless those days were cut short, no one would be saved, but those days will be cut short because of the elect. Seems like a very hopeless portrait for the future when it comes to the dragon, that he's gonna have tremendous amount of power, tremendous amount of impact and influence on humanity and the world. Um, I cannot answer when. You know, I believe in what we call the already, but not yet, when it comes to um biblical truth and prophecy. I think some things have happened along prophetic lines, but I think there's also a not yet phase that is to come.

unknown 25:23

It's confusing.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah, no, I I agree. It is confusing. Um, we don't have tremendous clarity on putting particular events to particular phases of history in the future. Um for me, contextually, when we look at the New Testament and we look at the doctrine of future events, the most important um thing that is absolutely assured is that Jesus is gonna return. Okay, and because Jesus is gonna return, he's gonna vindicate and he's gonna set the record straight with all the things that are going on. And this is actually a good segue to what we're gonna talk to next. But contextually speaking, I don't think the authors of Scripture are writing to satisfy our curiosity about a timeline. They are writing to give us the assurance that Jesus is gonna come back, and today we need to live our lives accordingly. That we need to pull that reality into our own reality. We need to live in such a way that reflects the assurance and the absolutivity that Jesus is coming back, regardless of the timeline. I think that the birth of Jesus has neutered some of the supernatural powers, and Satan understands that his time is limited. And I think because we still see evil in the world today, we still see chaos happening, uh, we know that he hasn't been stopped yet. I think that when Jesus returns, that will be the ultimate end of the enemy. Um, and this is great, Deb, because I appreciate what you're saying. Because if we just were to stop right here, it'd be pretty gloomy, right? Like, ah, you know, he's gonna get more powerful. I can see it all around me culturally, I can see it on a global scale of things going on. Uh, there's such chaos in the world. But we want to talk for just a minute about the relationships of dragons to God, because it can seem like they go unchecked. They they operate unfettered in the world, that they have impunity, they can do whatever they want, but we really need to understand theologically then the good news of how dragons relate to God. And this is really a perspective thing that I hope we walk away from this seminar tonight with this understanding. The thing to remember is dragons, these tanine, Leviathan, all these things, the serpents, uh, they were created by God. They're not rivals to him, and they are not a threat to him in any way. He is the actual defeater of the dragon. Okay, um Brian alluded to this a little bit about how some of the other cultures all have dragon mythology in them, right? And when we looked in Ezekiel and talked about Bell or Jeremiah, we talked about Bell being the Mesopotamian god. One of the reasons that he is called Lord is because it's said that he had defeated a sea monster named Tiamat. And because of that, he was able to be worshipped because that was such an event. Um, but the biblical authors, what they do for us is they describe God as the actual defeater of the dragon. Like it's a um in English terms we call it a polemic. It's uh the revealing of what the real truth is to nullify false narratives of that same idea. And we have this in Psalm 74, verses 12 to 14. God is my king from ancient times, performing saving acts on the earth. You divided the sea with your strength, you smashed the heads of the sea monsters in the water, you crushed the heads of Leviathan, you fed them to the creatures of the desert. That's our God. And that's how he relates to the dragons. He is the actual defeater of the dragons. It wasn't Marduk, it wasn't Gilgamesh, it wasn't all these other characters of mythology that have dragon stories in their cultural history. It was Yahweh. He's the one who defeats the dragons. Um, I like how the psalmist actually has a sense of humor as well because he describes these dragons as like goldfish or rubber duckies to God. Uh Psalm 104, uh, there the ships move about and Leviathan, which you form to play there. Like you can almost picture it. It's just like some little pet that he has that's that's playing in the water. All of them wait for you to give them their food at the right time. Uh when you give it to them, they gather it, and when you open your hand, they are satisfied with good things. Um, until recently, we had this like seemingly immortal goldfish. His name was Vanilla Bean. You know how your kids like, oh, I just want a goldfish, right? And so you're like, oh, okay. Or maybe you get one at the Hudsonville fair and you expect the thing to die within a week. This thing lived like and lived and grew and grew and grew. And I could not kill this thing, I couldn't pray it dead, it just kept flourishing. And um uh I don't know how many years it was like five years or something, four years, thanks. Uh my daughter's here, so I'm trolling her. But it's uh four years this fish grew from like this to like a carp or something. And the only thing it would do is like when you walk into the room, it would just go up to the glass and start doing that fish thing with its mouth because it just wanted to be fed. And when I read this verse, I'm like, that's who these dragons are to God. You know, they're just like these little fish that he feeds, and uh that's how inconsequential they really are to him. That's the perspective. Like this thing, it's it's not a rival to God. God has no rivals, right? Like, there's only one way that history is gonna go, and it's gonna go his way. Um, there's even more humor in the scriptures. They obey him like little puppies. Um, Psalm 148, 7, praise the Lord from all the earth, all the sea monsters and the ocean depths, they're gonna be the ones that like praise him still, you know, they glorify him because he created them. In the book of Job, you know, here's uh toward the end of Job where uh he's lecturing Job a little bit. Can you pull Leviathan in with a hook or tie his tongue down with a rope? Can you put a cord through his nose or pierce his jaw with a hook? Will he beg you for mercy or speak softly to you? Will he uh make a covenant with you so that you can take him as a slave forever? Can you play with him like a bird or put him on a leash for your girls? I mean, that's awesome. I love the scripture sometimes because it's just picturing them as these things that cause fear and and chaos in the lives of people. He's like, Yeah, those are my little pets. You know, they're nothing to me because I'm God, and that's who they are to him. So the the takeaway that I hope we have from this this section here is that like we need to maintain a proper perspective on who dragons are and what they are in relationship to God. Because what Brian's gonna start to talk about next is like how do we defeat dragons? You know, um, we know that they exist, we know that chaos comes from them, and we know that ultimately they're gonna be defeated. So, what role do we have in that? How's God gonna do that? And uh, we're gonna talk about that next. But for now, are there any other questions about some of what you're hearing tonight? Any thoughts or concerns? Yes, sir? Ethnos when I use the word what? Ethos. Ethnos, okay. So he's asking when I use the word ethnos, what did I mean by that? Sorry. Um, that is a terminology that means like um culture groups or people groups. Like um, it's where we get our word ethnicity from. It just um divides people into similar conditions. Like um, it's a Greek word, and the the word means like people that speak the same language, they live in close geography to each other. Um, you can actually look up different ethnic groups, uh, people groups um on the on the internet. Joshuaproject.org or dot net is um really good research base for it, it has all the people groups, all the ethnicities listed on that. And it's a term that's used in missions to go after unreached people that don't have a Christ in their neighborhood. So Deb?

unknown 34:21

God thinks they're cute part of the fall?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah. So again, I I guess I want to strike a balance here. Deb is asking, like, if God thinks these are cute little things, some people who have pit balls think that too. Um, and so you know, are they part of the fall? Are they part of all that? And so the answer is like, even though, in perspective, they are down here and God is up here. Um well, we are his people also, and I think what I'm getting at with this is even though they are dangerous and they cause mayhem and they cause death and they rob people and they destroy, um, they will never thwart ultimately the plan of God. Uh chaos creatures are in this world. Um, they are unseen creatures, there are people that work in concert with them. Uh, we can become chaos creatures. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Um, but it's this reality that God will always prevail and uh he will defeat them ultimately. So, yeah, there is still a great deal of danger, and I don't want to lessen that at all. I just don't want to escalate that, like, oh, one day they might win because they're so dangerous.

unknown 35:45

But we like hard life.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Yeah, and I appreciate what you're saying, Deb, because she's asking, like, if you know God is ultimately powerful, why is there pain and suffering? Why is there chaos? Why are there dragons in the world? Um, I like to answer some of those questions. Well, like, well, because God is so powerful and so good, he sent his son to die for us. And his son suffered immeasurably beyond what we can imagine because of his great love for us. So, yes, um, those things are in our world, but he has provided a way of rescue as well, because he is powerful and because he loves us. And I I emphasize that as well.

unknown 36:43

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

Oh, yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, does it? Okay. So Arlene's saying that there's a a physical well that was found and discovered in archaeology that's called the dragon well. And it also appears in Nehemiah, which is back when they restored the wall. And um, so I don't know what that's about. I mean, it probably has something to do with maybe some of the other cultures that were in there. Or do you know anything about it? I have no earthly idea, you know. All I know is like once I was on my grandpa's property, and um my brother and I were cleaning out like an old archery board, and we moved it, and there was a nest of snakes there. And I did everything biblically right because that scared the daylights out of me. And uh, I ran away screaming like a little girl. And so that should be our reaction when we're faced with the serpent. Um, I think I'm legit with that, but yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. Uh yes. This might be going in your direction, but it seems like a lot of problems that really affect the page. Yeah, and so Sue's asking, you know, like, you know, just has the course of time eliminated some chaos creatures and so on. Uh again, um, I think what we're after here is not just the physical creature itself, it's the metaphor of the fact that there are agents of chaos, whether they are supernatural beings, whether there are humans who are in alignment with them. So even if like some dinosaur went extinct, uh, I wouldn't necessarily equate that with what the biblical record is trying to convey to us, in that, you know, these the the the chaos and the damage and the destruction and the death is still going on, and it seems to be escalating even more, you know. Yeah, yeah. Well, I don't know that I've ever heard a story of that outside from Jonah, maybe once or twice somebody, but I don't think it was ever popular, so why are they? No idea. Yeah. Uh okay, good questions. Uh anything else, guys? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

I love that you guys are teaching me this. Let's dive back in.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Uh Scott and I are going to move. And Scott and I are going to move very quickly because we want to honor everyone's time, which means if you have deeper conversations that you want to have, we would love to have that with you. Uh we are two of your pastors and are available for lunch, coffee, whatever to talk more about this stuff. What I want to do is I want to take a second to say that what Scott established for us is that in the Bible, these creatures, which it seems like, it seems more likely that the biblical authors are talking about these creatures as representatives of spiritual beings than it does the biblical authors talking about these creatures as actual biological things. It seems that in their minds, these creatures are representative of an unseen realm more than they are representative of an actual physical biological reality. And what the biblical authors do then is they take that image to say that human beings can become so in league with dragons, with chaos creatures, that they become chaos creatures themselves. And it seems like that those creatures and those people have such an influence on the world that they're just going to drag everything down with them. But then you have this interesting picture where, unlike anything in the ancient Near East, Yahweh is pictured as the great dragonslayer crushing heads, but also pictured as the creator of these chaos creatures, like they're his rubber ducky. And so that image of Yahweh as the ultimate dragon slayer gets carried into the New Testament and it gets applied to Jesus. The greatest place that I can show you this is in Revelation chapter 19 and 20. In Revelation chapter 19, it says this it says, Then I saw heaven opened, and there was a white horse, its rider is called faithful and true, and with justice he judges and makes war. His eyes were like fiery, fiery flame, and many crowns were on his head. He had a name written that no one knows except himself. He wore a robe dipped in blood, and his name is called the Word of God. The armies that were in heaven followed him on white horses, wearing pure white linen, a sharp sword came from his mouth, so that he might strike the nations with it. He will rule them with an iron rod. He will also trample the winepress of the fierce anger of God, the Almighty, and he has a name written on his robe and on his thigh, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Who are we talking about? Who's the rider on the horse? Yes, Sunday school answer. Well done. As Revelation continues, all of a sudden, there's how does my translation put this? All of a sudden, as you keep reading, there is a beast and a false prophet, and all of those who have aligned themselves with the beast and the false prophet. So do you see the imagery that we're already used to from the Old Testament? You have a chaos creature, you have a false prophet, and then you have people who have aligned themselves, and they all line up to fight Jesus. And I have to tell you, um, it is the least awesome ending to a movie that you've ever seen. Like, what, like, think like I love the Lord of the Rings. Like, you think about the final battle where everybody's fighting in the field and then they march on Mordor and all, it just doesn't happen here. Revelation 19 is like these people gather for, Jesus shows up and speaks, and it's done. This chaos creature, this beast that earlier in Revelation was pictured as suffering a death blow and had come back to life, was pictured as just embodying all of the evil that wants to come against God, and Jesus defeats it in an instant. And then what's really interesting is in Revelation 20 it says this Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven holding the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the thousand years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time. So the biggest and baddest chaos creature in all of the scriptures, the Satan himself, has this no name angel. Like this isn't Michael, this isn't Gabriel, this is just some angel shows up with a chain. Wraps him up and chucks him into an abyss for a little while. And then later on, the Satan gets out of the abyss, and it says, When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle, though number is like the sand of the sea. They came up across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and false prophet are, and they were tormented day and night, forever and ever. Okay. I just want to point out some really simple things from these few passages that we read together. The first one is this This is the final showdown with the dragon. Like these passages are the last moment that God is going to face this war. There is this consistent beat throughout these stories of main characters like the beast, the prophet, and the Satan, and people they had deceived, they become aligned with them, and it picks up with the imagery of people being called Tanin in the Old Testament. And these two battles picture what's going to happen. Now, the beast who is empowered to fight the dragon comes first. The dragon himself comes to fight, and Jesus fights that final war with his word, and it's the worst dramatic ending ever. I just realized I told you half the things that were on my slide. I apologize for that ahead of time. But this is but this is the biggest thing I want you to see. Jesus wins. Like that's what Scott was trying to leave us with at the end of our last conversation. That these chaos creatures, the reason that stuff exists is because there are beings, both seen and unseen, who use the agency God has given us to work against what he wants to do in the world. And those beings are going to fight against God until the final moment. And it seems like they're semi-convinced that they can still win. Like this is what I really don't get about our enemy. It seems like even though Jesus completely, I love that word that you used. I don't remember which one of us started using it first, but I love the word. Like Jesus completely neutered the powers. Just neutered Satan. And yet, this this dude just keeps fighting as if he's got a shot. And Jesus sends, Jesus doesn't even waste his time with Satan in Revelation 20 at the beginning. He just sends an angel to bind him up and put him into the abyss for 2,000 years. And then when he gets out, the Satan tries again and he gets completely defeated. And so there's this picture in the scriptures that helps us make sense of our reality as human beings. That there are forces behind the things that happen in our world. And those forces are not friendly to us, they are not friendly to God or our flourishing or goodness or anything of the like. All they want to do is drag God's good creation, including the pinnacle of that which is human beings, down into chaos with them. And they're going to lose. Not only is Yahweh the great dragon slayer, but Jesus is the great dragon slayer. And so the question that you have to ask in light of that, that I want Scott to talk about for a minute, is what does Jesus do to defeat the dragon? Like we're getting a picture of that in the final battle. Like we're getting a picture of Jesus just shows up and says, we're done and it's over and it's great. But how did Jesus get that title? How was that title of Dragon Slayer of Yahweh applied to Jesus? And so Scott's going to talk about that for a minute.

SPEAKER_01 47:38

All right. I want to give us a word that we we use in churchy circles, atonement. Maybe you've heard of this word before. The atonement of Jesus actually defeats the dragon. And I'm going to walk through that for a second on what that means and what I mean by that. So when we think of the atonement, we think of the covering of our sins. We think of something that happens to take away our sins. Because right now the dragon has a hold on every man, every woman, every child that's called sin. Romans 6.23 talks about this. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. So without intervention of some kind that isn't us, we will one day die and we will be separated from God eternally because that's the power the dragon has on us. He has the power of death. But Jesus' death on our behalf, his atonement is covering of our sins. You can think of it as words that are spelled out at one meant. You know, he has made us one with him in his atonement, and that defeats the dragon within our lives. He substituted his innocent life for our guilty lives. And so there is a future component where Jesus is going to defeat the enemy, but that defeat is taking place even now through our lives, for those of us who have trusted in his substitutionary death for us. I like how the author of Hebrews puts this. The author of Hebrews writes in chapter 2, verse 14, now, since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, he was fully human, so that through his death he might destroy the one holding the power of death, that is the devil. That is how he has victory over the dragon today through us in this world, because there is like one of the best verses of the Bible that we find in Romans chapter 16. And if you ever go to Golake Ministries, it's also a song, which I can't get out of my head every time I read this verse. But Romans 16, 20, the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. When we read that word crush, that the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. That's a fascinating word because here's what it means. It means to break to pieces, it means to shatter, to pulverize, to crush completely under your feet. It's the same idea of what's going on in Psalm 110.1. Psalm 110 verse 1 is the most quoted Psalm in all of the New Testament. It occurs as a direct quote, some 15 plus times, and it's got a number of allusions to it. So see if you recognize this in Psalm 110.1. This is the declaration of the Lord to my Lord. Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. That means that the dragon is crushed beneath our feet. Jesus is going to prevail ultimately against the dragon, be like an enemy under his footstool. This was a common belief among the days of those under Roman control. There are statues of like Hadrian or Hadrian the Emperor, where it's got him standing on what appears to be a child. Because the thought that was common culturally is that when somebody defeated the enemy, they just crushed him and stood over them. And it wasn't a child that he was standing on. It just appeared a lot smaller in the statue because the um the artist that made the statue just had to show the sheer dominance of the emperor and the conquering one over the enemy. And that's the picture that the biblical authors are trying to make. So not only will Jesus defeat the dragon ultimately, but his death, his atonement, defeats him in us today. We get to live lives, and we're going to talk about this just a little bit more detail, about what that looks like to crush him. But I'm going to turn it back over to Brian because Brian's got kind of a summary question that we have to ask ourselves when it comes to all this stuff about dragons and who Jesus is and then what role we play in it as well. Because there you are. Gotcha. You snuck up on me.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Don't miss what Scott just said. What the scriptures tell us is that Yahweh is the ultimate dragonslayer. Jesus is the ultimate dragonslayer. And you and I are invited to be dragonslayers. Like we have a choice. There is no middle ground on this choice. Like, if you're anything like me, you like to find both and when it comes to stuff. Those of you who spend enough time around me get annoyed at how much I say both and. This isn't one of those situations. You've got a choice in your life. You will either be like the dragon or you will crush the dragon. Those are your two choices as a human being. Will you be like the dragon or crush the dragon? And what Jesus does through his atonement is invite us into crushing the dragon with him. Can I show you a story? Like, can I show you the first story where we learn that in the Bible? It's really cool. It's an Exodus. So I want to start with a story that's actually going to vindicate Scott a little bit. So rather than mock you, I'm going to help you here for once. Okay. Exodus chapter 4, God comes to Moses and he says, Hey, I want you to go and tell Pharaoh to let my people go. I want you to call Israel into salvation and release from Egypt. And Moses doesn't buy into what God wants him to do. And so he starts negotiating with God. And in Exodus 4.1, he says, What if the Israelites won't believe me and will not obey me? But they say, The Lord did not appear to you. The Lord asked him, What's in your hand? A staff, Moses replied. Throw it on the ground, he said. So Moses threw it on the ground and it became a snake and he ran from it. You're in good company, Scott. Thank you. The Bible is hilarious. Like this, like Moses throws his staff on the ground and it pictures it becoming a snake, and Moses runs away screaming like a little girl. The Lord then says, this will take place so that they will believe the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob has appeared to you. So when it says here that Moses throws his staff on the ground and it turns into a snake, it's the Hebrew word Nahash. Now, what's really interesting is later on in Exodus chapter 7, verse 15, the Lord comes to Moses and he says, again, go to Pharaoh in the morning when you see him walking out to the water, stand ready to meet him by the bank of the isle, take in your hand the staff that turned into a Nahash. What's another story you can think of that has staves turning into snakes? Can anybody think of one? What's that? Not in the wilderness. Moses goes to visit somebody. He goes to visit Pharaoh. What's that? Pharaoh's advisors. Yes, you're killing it, Noah. Well done. That's in Exodus chapter 7, verse 8. The Lord sends Aaron and Moses to Pharaoh. Familiar with this story? The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, When Pharaoh tells you, perform a miracle, tell Aaron, take your staff and throw it down before Pharaoh, and it will become a serpent. So Moses and Aaron went into Pharaoh and did just as the Lord commanded. Aaron threw down his staff before Pharaoh and his officials, and it became a serpent. But then Pharaoh called the wise men and sorcerers, the magicians of Egypt, and they also did the same thing by their occult practices. Each one threw down his staff and it became a certain. But Aaron's staff swallowed their staffs. However, Pharaoh's heart was hard, and he did not listen to them as the Lord had said. If you were to read this story, when it says that Aaron threw his staff down and it turned into a serpent, what word would you expect that to be? Nahash, right? You want to know what word it actually is? Tanem. It's not nahash. It's tanen. That when Moses threw his staff on the ground, it turned into a tanim. And then when Pharaoh's lackeys, with their occult practices, which again that's hinting to dark spiritual forces, when they throw their staves on the ground, they turn into tananim. And what's really interesting is that you have this Tanin that Moses threw on the floor that is now squaring off with Pharaoh's two Tanin. So, um, oh my word, we just showed uh, oh, give me the title brain. There it is, the Prince of Egypt. Anybody familiar with that movie? It's an animated depiction of Moses' story. We just watched this with my kids for the first time recently, showed them this movie, and this scene is just epic. It's so cool because Aaron throws his staff on the ground and it turns into this big gold cobra, and then Pharaoh's dudes are dancing around singing and stuff, and they throw their staves on the ground and they turn into these two big cobras, and then they go off to the side, and there's this shadow where you see the one cobra swallowing the tails of the other two, and it's really epic and it's really cool. And I'm just convinced they completely missed the point. That it actually was way more epic and cool than that. That when we read this, what we're seeing is that war between dragons, between monsters, and that by God using Moses and Pharaoh, this is the first time that Yahweh is saying, I'm inviting you to be a monster crusher, to crack some dragon skulls. And so what I want you to realize is that not only is God in the scriptures inviting and promising us that, like inviting us into a reality, that he is going to ultimately crush the head of the snake, that all of the forces that are behind the chaos that exists in the world and anyone who aligns themselves with it will ultimately be defeated. What he's saying to us is that we don't have to give in to those forces in our lives now. We don't have to become like the dragon. In fact, you and I have the ability, as believers in Jesus, to become dragon slayers too. So immediately the right question that you should be asking is, okay, what does that look like? And that's some of what Scott and I want to continue to talk about for sure.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Okay, so what does it look like to crush dragons in our world today? If you have a copy of the scriptures or device, I'm gonna have us go to 2 Corinthians chapter 5. Um, in 2 Corinthians chapter 5, we have a very vivid picture of how we defeat dragons. Here we can read about something called the Ministry of Reconciliation. And I'm gonna start in verse 17 and read through verse 20. But as we read through this, think about like, okay, if I live this way, how does it stop Satan? How does it stop chaos in my world? Um, verse 17. Um therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, the old is passed away, and see the newest come. Everything is from God who has reconciled us to himself through Christ and has given us the ministry of reconciliation. That is, in Christ, God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, as he has committed the message of reconciliation to us. Therefore, we are ambassadors of Christ. Since God is making his appeal through us, we plead on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God. Okay. What is an ambassador? anybody? Yes. A representative, okay? What does uh an ambassador represent? Let's keep going with this. A country, okay? All right, he represents a country. Where does uh an ambassador go? Usually. Foreign countries, different places, different countries, okay. What does he do when he goes to those countries? Or she. He or she. He represents the country he is from and he brings a message to that other country on behalf of his government. Does he have the authority to speak with the country that he's representing? Absolutely, right? Right? Okay, so that's what a normal ambassador does in our world. How are we then ambassadors for Christ? Um, let's think this through a little bit. Yeah, go ahead. We represent Christ, right? So we're not representing our government, we're representing Jesus. Are we going into hostile places on his behalf? Absolutely, right? Do we have the authority to speak for Jesus on his behalf in hostile places? Absolutely, okay? What is the message that we're bringing according to this passage? It's in verse 20. Yeah, be reconciled to God. What does that mean to be reconciled to God? We we read through it in some of the earlier verses. No, yeah, do it, Arlene. A debt is paid.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:13

We have a debt that we our sin.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

Yeah. Absolutely.

unknown 1:03:19

We can't pay it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

Yeah. We call that the gospel, right? We are people who have been redeemed by God. We have been reconciled to him. That's just a fancy word that means our sins have been forgiven. And we are called to be ambassadors on his behalf into hostile places, into people's homes and countries that don't believe that, and carry out his mission. It is anti-chaos. It is God's kingdom order. So, how do we defeat dragons? We carry with us the message of reconciliation. We get to share the gospel with people. That's our number one weapon. How do we do that in our lives? It's um it's tricky because we still have sin natures too, and it's not always easy, but I would suggest a couple real simple things. Galatians 5, 22 to 23, right? The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. We live in such a reversal way from the rest of the world that we show them how attractive Jesus is. Our best defeat against the enemy and against the dragon is to live according to his kingdom plan for our lives. We live changed lives. People will see us, people will hear us and be attracted to Jesus. And then the other common one that I referred to a little bit earlier is in Ephesians 6, right? Verses 11 to 18. We put on the full armor of God. This is talking about spiritual disciplines, things that we can do in our own lives on a regular, consistent basis that will help us to live God's kingdom plan. We put on the full armor of God so again, that we can stand against those schemes of the devil, his chaotic desires to upset God's kingdom program. Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against rulers, against authorities, against the cosmic powers of darkness, against evil, and uh and spiritual forces in the heavens. Again, that tells us that other human beings are not our enemies, but rather the systems that are in place that are going against God because people are created in his image. And so therefore we live in such a way with our spiritual disciplines. For this reason, we take up the full armor of God. Now, when I read through this, you could probably all follow it, and many can quote it, but think of it in terms as a community command, a command to an army, not just an individual. Because that's the context that it's in. As a community of people, we need to do this together. All right. We need to take up the full armor of God, that we can resist the devil in the evil day, uh, having prepared for everything to take our stand. So therefore, we as a community with true uh take up truth like a belt around our waist, righteousness like armor on our chests, and feet sandal with the readiness of the gospel of peace. In every situation, we take up the shield of faith, um, which can extinguish the flaming arrows of the evil one. We can take on the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. We can pray at all times in the Spirit with every prayer and request and stay alert with all perseverance and intercession for all the saints. We can do that together. None of us is meant to defeat the dragon on our own. You know, if you come to our house, we have some stuff from different parts of the world, and I have a Maasai shield from the Maasai tribe uh in Africa, and uh two lion-killing swords that hang in our wall. And when a young man became into manhood as a Maasai, uh they had to kill a lion with one of these swords. But he just didn't do it himself. One person would take that shield and then um he would like provoke the lion and turn it around so the other one had a good target to kill it. And it's such a vivid picture of how we kill dragons, too. We do it together and we do it by teamwork and culturally speaking. Make sense? Good, good.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

Right? Yeah, and so just to kind of wrap it up, you think that means we're done soon, but if you know me, that's not true. Just to kind of wrap it up, ask yourself a question and then walk through a thought exercise with me for a second. Are you being or crushing the dragon? Like if you looked at your own life, are you acting in a way that causes more chaos and struggle and disorder in the world, or are you a person of peace who brings God's goodness and order into the world? So, thought exercise with me for a moment. Let me let me see if I can just make this really, really practical. What are some ways that we are told by the world around us to treat our enemies? Very key here. What are some ways we are told by the world around us to treat our enemies? Go ahead, Deb. Which is along the lines of where of where I'm trying to take us here. So instead of going into those, that landmine-ridden conversation, um, because what Deb was saying is that we are pressured to not just participate in, but call things good that aren't good in our current world. And that's where I'm trying to take us with this enemies question.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:16

Because they want us to love not just the sinner, but the sin.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

Yes, right, Deb. But let's think about this in terms of enemies for a second. What are some prevailing ways that our world tells us we should treat people that we think are our enemies? Vengeance. Hate them. Mock them. Persecute them. Crack some skulls. Right? Cancel them. That's another one. Yeah, cancel them. I'm not neutering any enemies. Yes, neuter them metaphorically. Okay. It's a it's a good, it's a it's yeah, good. Great. Question, question, question. Let's when we mock our enemies, when we persecute them, when we hate them, when we pursue vengeance, does that create more chaos and death, or more life and order? More chaos and death. Do you in fact, how many of you, how many of you know someone? And I'm not, I'm not just talking about the movies right now. How many of you know someone personally that was obsessed with vengeance? Whether it be just for a season or they just got to that point in their life where they were obsessed with making sure that someone got theirs. You ever known someone like that? If you knew them personally, did you notice the monster that they became because of it? This is the point of the theme of the dragon in the scriptures. There is, there are forces, both personal and impersonal, that want to drag us into monstrous forms of ourself. And every time that we go with the wisdom of the world, we are becoming more like the dragon. Every time we seek vengeance against our enemies, every time we mock them, every time we hate them, every time we persecute them, we're just walking in league with the Satan himself. How does Jesus call us to treat our enemies? Love them, pray for them. What else? Respect them, forgive them. What else? Anything else that anyone wants to throw out there? Love them. Okay. Let's do the same thought exercise for a second. When you love your enemies, when you pray for them, when you respect them, when you care for them, when you do the things that Jesus calls you to do to your enemies, does that bring about more chaos and death or more life and flourishing? It'll confuse people. In the short term, it can look like chaos because we're just naturally bent to get every against everything that Jesus wants for us. But in the long run, what does it bring about? Go ahead, Arlene.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:03

Personal experience, what it has brought about is God changed my heart about that person because I prayed for them and was doing what he commanded me.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:13

Yeah. You want to know what a quick way for you to stop viewing your enemy as such is to start praying for them. It is really, really hard to hate someone that you are praying for. And when I say, when I say pray for them, Arlene backed me up on this, right? Like when I say pray for them, I don't mean that you're praying for their downfall. Like I don't mean praying that God will do something bad for them. No, I mean praying for their good. Praying that they would either come to know Jesus or come back to the Lord, depending on what their situation is, right? It can be really confusing. In fact, it can make people mad and cause some extra chaos in your life, but here's what I'll guarantee you: it won't turn you into a monster. And sometimes it won't even just change your heart, it'll change the other person's heart when they see you love them the way that Jesus has called you to. Okay, so here's so here's what I want you to think about. I want you to think about every single command that God gives us in the scriptures. Every single command is a way for you to bring life and flourishing into the world rather than bringing chaos and death. When you choose not to lie, when you choose not to steal, when you choose to, as far as it depends on you, if possible, live at peace with all people around you, you are making choices by the power of the Holy Spirit to crush the dragon. Maverick, you want to be a dragon slayer? Obey your mom and dad. Wes, you want to be a dragon slayer? Love Kelsey the way that Jesus loves the church. Do you see how that changes your mindset a bit, friends? We may not be able to go out there and find an actual beast with multiple heads that we can take a sword to. We actually can't do that with lions unless you want to get arrested at the John Ball Zoo. But every single one of us, as believers in Jesus Christ, have been invited into and called to crush the head of the dragon in anticipation of the fact that Jesus will ultimately do that once and for all, when our true enemy will be defeated. And so again, I'll ask you to consider the question that I think this theme is asking us to consider, every single one of us, and that is in your life right now, are you acting like the dragon or are you crushing him? Are you being a source of chaos and struggle and death in your life, or are you being a source of life, flourishing, and goodness? Because as a Christian, the latter is what you've been called to, and if you're doing the former, you're settling for something less than Jesus wants for you. Let's pray, and then I have some logistics for us. Oh Lord, man, it can be so overwhelming for us when we look at the world around us. I think about the reminder that my sister Deb shared with us that we live in a world where we are being asked not just to go along with things that are wrong, we're being asked to call those things good. In fact, there are times where I look at our world right now and it feels like some of the things that you talk about in your word are reality right here in this moment. It can easily seem like in our day and age that the chaos creatures are winning, that they are ultimately going to come out on top. And so I thank you and praise you for the reminder you've given us tonight that that isn't the case. I thank you for pulling back the curtain to reveal to us that there are forces behind things in this world that want nothing but chaos and struggle and death. And Jesus, we praise you for the fact that you have rescued us out of that. We, at one point in every single one of our lives, we had no choice. We were going to act like the dragon. But you have paid for that, Jesus. You have conquered that power, and you have given us the chance to participate in that by dying and rising again, so that when we place our faith in you, we can go from being people who are in league with the dragon to being dragon slayers ourselves. And so, Holy Spirit, I pray right now that you would help us to take a good hard look at that question we've asked tonight. I know that you've been asking that question of me, and you've been revealing some areas in my life that I need to become a dragon slayer instead of letting the dragon win. And so I pray that you would help my brothers and sisters in this room to ask that question honestly of themselves. And I pray that you would, in the sweetness of your conviction, reveal areas to us that we can be more like you've asked us to be. I pray that you would help us to view every command that you have given us, not as a buzzkill and not as you holding out on us or keeping things from us, but as an invitation into the life that you've called us to have. That not only is a beacon for you and not only is allowing us to be an ambassador for you, but is actually crushing the head of our enemy. Give us boldness to share the good news of who you are and what you've done. Give us courage to look at the world around us and proclaim for all of them that they do not have to live the way that they are in the chaos and death that so categorizes things. Help as many of us as possible to lead more and more people to know you so that we can all join in marveling and wondering at you the day that you bring an end to all of the nonsense that our enemy does. We love you, Jesus. And it's in your precious name that we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:29

Thank you for tuning in today. We really appreciate you joining us for this episode. If you've found anything that you have questions about, about some of the things that we covered, talking about dragons and their influence in the world and how we can become either dragons ourselves or help crack dragons in our face uh we'd love to chat more about it. Thank you once again for joining us. Um take good care and godless.