From Separation to a 30-Year Success Story: Overcoming Trauma through EMDR, Faith, and Resilience | Unspoken with Sean & Mendy

In this powerful episode of Unspoken, hosts Nick and Nick sit down with Sean and Mendy, the founders of New Leaf Counseling and The Marriage Collective, to uncover their incredible journey from divorce papers to a thriving 30-year marriage. Listeners will explore how EMDR therapy served as a life-saving tool for processing deep-seated trauma, suicidal ideation, and "father wounds," helping Sean transition from a stoic Marine mindset to a life of vulnerability and resiliency. The couple shares raw insights on marriage reconciliation after an 18-month separation, the transformative power of faith during their "dark days," and practical relationship strategies like intentionality and "first dibs" communication to foster psychological safety. Whether you are seeking expertise on mental health recovery, trauma-informed counseling, or advice on becoming a "student" of your spouse, this episode offers a profound roadmap for healing and personal transformation.

Thank you again to Sean and Mendy for joining us on the show today! 

Transcript

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Welcome to unspoken where everyone is. Welcome back to another episode of unspoken with Nick and Nick. That'll get you every time. It'll get you every single time. That one though today kind of got me man. Made my butthole pucker up a little bit. That's right. Sphincter congestion. That one startled me a little bit. I think it gets everybody. The plaques start moving again. Yeah. I think it gets most people to be fair. I think it gets most people. So this is the first time we've ever had two guests at the same time. Very cool. Yeah. Yeah. So very honored. Two for the price of one. What's your name? And what do you do? No, it's going to be double price. It's going to be double price. That's true. I know you guys too. Well, there's no discount. So let's start off this way. What is your name and what do you do? Well, hi, I'm Mindy and I'm a business owner. Okay. Nice. And my name is Sean and I, too, am a business owner. I own a group counseling practice and I'm a counselor. Awesome. Sweet. Not only that, we're married. And they're married. In and of itself. Can be. Never sleep. So I've known you guys for how long? Four or five years now, probably five. Yeah. Yeah. Truthfully, like if I'm going to take a second to kind of brag on them. Yeah, do it. First of all, like, I love them both very much. Like I've I've I've been very close and grown closer over the years. Sensitive guy. I'm a sensitive guy. My heart is on my sleeve. My very large. I put on my medium. I put on my medium shirt today. That's right. He's so cut. Oh, snap. But, yeah, no, I mean, we've we've gone to church together for a long time. Mindy and I served together on our church group for production at church. That's awesome. Nick does amazing lights. I do some lights and they've started to restrict my light shows. So I've had to tell them. They're holding up my creative juices raining on the parade. I know. I was like, Hey, here's the deal, man. If we can't praise some Lord with lights, what are we doing here? The Lord like if the lights it had to it had to be the disco ball. They didn't like too many of them. No, I like the disco ball. All I'm saying is if you open the door for creativity, be prepared to let the Nick speak. Right. And they still don't give me a mic at all. We're working on it. We're working on it. We're getting there. At least you have one here. I do have one here, but I had to buy it myself. So that was that's pretty lame. And that's where our listeners come in. That's where the listeners come in. But no, I just appreciate you both knowing you guys for a long time. And I've been really excited to have this episode for a while. I know we've talked about it a lot. Yeah. So let's just start from kind of the beginning. We've talked about a lot of things. We've talked about a lot of things. I'm intrigued to hear the story together. And because Nick's excited, he is excited. He's brought this up numerous times. I'm excited. Oh, good. Yeah. All right. This will be fun. Buckle up. This will be fun. Buckle up and get a little trepidation. You should. I'm all in. You should. You should. These two much trepidation. I think these two by the end of the show, though, Nick, you're going to wish that I had never gone through EMDR for three years. Oh, I love EMDR. I do, too. It saved my life. Yeah, it's been pretty impactful for me, too. Yeah, it's a powerful tool. Yeah, that's awesome for you. Electromagnetic device retraction. Yes, exactly. Anybody didn't know what that was. That's a very scientific term. Science science. I try not to talk about science because I do it all day. I know. Right. Yeah. You need a break. You can't do it all the time. Yeah, I can't. It's I do what I do for it's like such a high IQ. Exactly. Somebody comes over, they ask for your autograph. It's just like what this is. They work to me. I belong to this club. Mensa, you know, may know it. Whatever. No, it's a schmucks. Those bums. They're only one forty. What you idiots. So, guys, I'm going to I'm going to prompt it a little bit differently than I have in the past. And the reason I'm going to do that is because I'm very intrigued, like I said, as the collective story I've heard. I've heard from both of you multiple times. For context, if Mindy wasn't in the booth with Tim, Tim, I'm looking at you with Tim and I, Tim, Tim does audio. I do lights. Mindy does what we call media. Yeah. So she does more than that. Oh, a lot. I also mom. I'm fully aware. I hear about it. Yeah. Oh, and you see it. You come up to the balcony and seeing what goes down. It gets wild up there. She has to be the it's got to be pretty hectic. She runs an adult daycare on Sunday mornings. That's right. For four hours, you can drop off your toddler that's 31 years old. And I don't want to work with anyone else other than you or Tim. Well, we we have had some hilarious, hilarious moments. But in that, obviously we've talked about a lot of different things. So I've heard a lot of the different stories from from you guys individually. And I really am intrigued about that. So let's just start like what? Who are you guys as business owners now? And then a little bit later, we're going to talk a little bit more about your background, how we got there. Yeah. Yes. So present story. Love the journey. So business owner, high level. Go. I'm going to let Mindy go first, but I'm going to kind of introduce from my perspective, what I see you do. Okay. Oh, I like this. I'm ready for that. So there's a couple of terms there. They're unofficial, official terms. Right. She's a GSD specialist. Get stuff done. Like it's kind of true. Yeah. She does that for I feel very ADD on that clients and people that come to her for her expertise. And there's many of them. And that kind of looks a lot like whack-a-mole at times. She's a whack-a-mole expert because she'll be handling at least three or four different projects in a day for different people, different clients, sub clients, I guess, people that work for me that come to her for certain tasks. And it's chaos. She manages chaos really well. That whole idea of multitasking. Guys typically like to say that they're good at it, but ultimately they suck at multitasking. And women are just hardwired to do it. And it's pushing me. Yeah. Well, you're one of the best. So what I my business is called. Well, I don't know. Do you say business names on here? You can edit it out. No, no, no. I don't need to market my business. I'm not interested in honestly. But essentially what I do is I've started off as a marketing. And so I would create websites. I will talk about my past, but this was an avenue to get out of my past career. And so I do marketing. But then Sean, with his business, I also schedule his clients. I created his website and create all the documents, streamline everything. But I also edit doctoral papers for a university, a friend of ours who's doing editing. So I do. But I don't do like the English part. I just do the organizing part. It's all the same. Yeah, sure. It just looks different. And then I grocery shop and I mow and do all the things. So when Sean gets home, I can eat bonbons and catch up on my soap poppers. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can turn on his as much as you wrote and relax with a baked apple jacket and my pipe. And then I also love meeting with other young women and meeting with them and seeing how they're doing and just checking in on them. And so it's kind of an ask, just more of like, yeah, ministry, not, yeah, not business. And take care of our family and do all the things for the three of us, the men and the family. So, yeah, which by itself is a three full time job. Yeah, for sure. Totally get that. Okay, I love that. Thank you for that. Okay, high level. I like it. Okay, so my turn. My high level is I own and operate a group practice with several therapists in several states. And then I see my own clientele. Yeah, individuals, couples, families, various ages, do a lot of trauma work, intensive stuff. Yeah, marriages and crisis. Yep. You know, the real light and yeah, the easy stuff. Totally. Yeah. So but basics. I love what I do. So I get to help people. Yeah. Well, and I think so that's why initially when we talked about you guys coming on the show, I mean, like a year ago, that long ago for you and I, it probably was. Yeah, that's when you started hearing about it. Oh, yeah. No, seriously. I'm not lying. Yeah. Yeah, we had to get there. We had to get there first and it took some time and we made it work. But and he knows me. So he's like, man, I got a guy for you. Yeah. Well, and I think, you know, we've talked about it. Well, I never it's interesting because that like I hate to turn this as like a me thing. I don't mean it this way, but I never thought about like therapy and counseling ever as like a thing I would ever do. And I never thought about it before I lost my best friend. Yeah. Well, you were weak back in the day if you did that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when I was in the Marine Corps. I mean, you didn't do it because you were afraid of getting kicked out. Yeah. Right. I don't want to talk to the and I don't want to take away from your moment there. No, no, not at all. I'm just saying like that's that was what drew me to that was because I'd had some tough situations with that that arose from multiple things. And John and I have talked about that, of course. Yeah. Right. So, you know, we're like, that's a that's a good thing. And I think before I thought of it as like more of a negative thing. Yeah. That's fair. That's right. Absolutely. You know. So fair. Now that I see it realistically and and see like the benefits and the power in it and really just truthfully like mental health is more of a big deal than people think it is true. Totally true. And I mean, I could we could all sit around and be like just, you know, come on, get through it. Man up, rub some dirt on it. Exactly. And I'm like. Sometimes you can't. That's not right. Yeah. There are moments you should. You know what? You can't rub dirt on when somebody freaking kills them. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. You and I have that in common. And I don't mean to make you know that. I don't mean to like nosedive us off of a black diamond. Right. But it's true. You can't. Right. So and I struggle with that a lot. I struggle. I still struggle with that a lot. You know, I can tell you now his birthday is like 60 days away. And it's a bummer for me. And that hits me every every year. And it's good to know because classic garbage disposal, classic garbage disposal. Perfect. But placement. This is how it works. You know, that's right. Brought to you by a greater. Yeah. But yeah, so not not to retract at all from that, but it is a it is a cool thing. And it's it's more interesting to me now than it used to be because I did not know the benefits and the reality of it. And that's super helpful. So something to think about. Well, I think it's important to find a good fit. Absolutely. Not every counselor approaches this the same way. Sure. And so it's you got to find someone that you can really feel safe and secure with, open up to maybe some relatability. Sure. That's hard to do, especially when a lot of therapists, most therapists do not provide any kind of self-disclosure. They don't open up. And that's because they're instructed not to. That's part of just part of their training. Yeah. Which, why would you say that is if you had to make an assessment of that, whether it be like you actually like this is the actual truth of what I know for sure, or if there's just like, here's why I think that is. Well, I think it's a matter of maintaining professionalism and not making it about yourself as the therapist or having some sort of power over the client sure in the direction that they go. Yeah. So it's just extra precautions that are put in place for that. Sure. Like safety guard, safety rails. Yeah. And I think there's a lot of need for that. But I also find that there's also a counterbalance to that, where sometimes it can be very helpful to maybe gain some insight, ideally because it's therapeutically beneficial for your client to hear that. Yeah. Bingo. That's kind of a touchy area. So, you know, I think you got to find what works for you. Yeah, it is hard. I'm like an expert on the other side of what you do, finding somebody I trust and finding somebody. So when I was going through it, the hard headed Marina me, I need things. Hardcore in my face, don't sugarcoat, don't soften it, call me out, hold me accountable. And it was really hard for me to find somebody like that. And I finally did. And she's incredible. That's great. And she will call your bluff with I love it. I cannot cannot get away with anything I love, which I love. And she has very softly open up on a couple things that hit that nerve with her. Things I've talked about. Hey, been there. Yeah, didn't divulge on the whole situation, but gave me just enough to have that mutual benefit where it was almost like in that moment we were teaching each other something. Absolutely. And I loved that. So you're bringing up great points. I also think the same thing, and I think that part of that in what you're saying truly is around. There's a certain level of relational value that you kind of have to throw out there. And I think like me as a. Personally, I'm kind of I kind of keep guards up for whatever reason. I don't know why. I don't know that that's I don't know that that's necessarily true all the time, but like I can be cautious now as a dad. Like I want to I want to know who I'm talking to. Yeah, but like once I trust you, like, OK, we can have a better conversation. And I say that as if I can't have a conversation with a wall and end up on a good side of that. But, you know, the reality is still there. I know what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, I understand that. Yeah, I think that there's, like you said, safeguards and things that are just in place almost human nature side of things. It is nice to hear people that have things in common with you, and especially if you're coming from a place of I have had this significant, like, suck thing in life. Yeah. If somebody's like, hey, man, I've been there and here's what I did to figure that out. Yes. Maybe that works. Maybe that doesn't. So, yeah, that's a great point. I kind of approach it in my own in my own way, where it's I kind of well, I'm an integrationist. So basically all these different tools and therapeutic modalities that are out there that I've received training on, I don't find that any of those are just a one size fits all. Yeah, some tools are more effective than others. I would say, like, at the foundation of it is my cognitive behavioral therapy approach. OK, well, that's great. But it's it's one tool in the toolbox. And so finding out what my clients need so I can go to the toolbox and kind of pull out a variety of different tools, depending on those needs, is very helpful. And so I'm constantly trying to learn and grow myself. I have my own therapeutic process. I've got a whole treatment team of people that have worked on me over the past few years. You're wearing a lot of people's crap, too. I've talked about this with my therapist, like, how do you stay sane? I mean, you got people like me all day and there are people worse than me. There are people better than me. They're in your he said he's got a lot of people working. He's a Stepford wife. I know. Yeah, I like that. And he's just turned to me. But what I want to say is I appreciate you for that being the type that can wear that for people because we need you. Yeah. And when we get into the back story, you'll understand how miraculous that actually is. Yeah. OK, yeah. That was never on my radar. If you would have told me years ago that this would be my career path, probably would have laughed in your face, cussed you out, punched you in the throat, something along those lines. Sounds like we would have been best friends. Oh, yeah, totally. You want to go kick his ass? Let's go. Let me introduce you to Mr. Ring Man. Yeah, love it. Turn it on the inside. Exactly, exactly. Show them my past colors. No, that's that is awesome. And I truly think that it takes a certain type of person to be able to do that. In a lot of ways, it's the same thing as what we talked about in the past with some of the same stresses that happen like in a 9-1-1 center on like high level, like public safety jobs. Yeah, like first responder jobs. Like that takes the type of person that can take things that potentially wouldn't necessarily compound those into further stresses, you know. Yeah. And that's that's really hard. Having been in that position as a 9-1-1 operator, I thought it was like no big deal. Looking back, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I have like there's a lot of things that I heard that like really rough. Well, and you're the helping type. So if you're stuck on that end of the phone call and you can't go do it with them, that's your your personality is a lot like mine where, OK, you tell me you're in trouble. All right, man, where are you? Yeah. And you can't, you're stuck. Well, in a lot of ways, too. I think that that is a. I think that that is one big similarity in first responder world to like the therapy world. Right. Is you have to be a really good question asker because otherwise information means nothing. I agree. And I think that it's always funny because like you can kind of see the wheels turn as you ask or like are being asked or as you're talking in a therapy session. Right. And like right now, I see your wheels turning. Exactly. I hear them. And to my point, and to my point, because like you've asked questions and I'm like, I have literally never thought about that. And that's that's an interesting thing. And I don't know. I don't know why that is. I don't know if it's just that there are are levels to it that like you start stepping through different doorways and that makes a different change in the conversation for whatever reason. But it certainly makes a difference in the way that information is passed, right? Like, and I think if you are a person that is communicative in a vocal manner versus communicative in a bodily manner, those things make a difference, too. Yeah, because I mean, you guys can see it right now. If you're watching the video, I use my hands. I don't know what to do with them, but they're everywhere. And a lot of times, if you're not like I'm that is how I talk. And notice who has the the control board. Yeah, that's right. Guy that does things with the stuff. Exactly. Right. So it's a it's a real thing. And I mean, maybe that's maybe that's personality based or maybe that's just the way that people communicate. But I think that it does make a difference in the way that you approach different topics within sessions. Certainly. Yeah, that's good. Just a thought. Listen to this guy. Yeah, just a thought. I'm curious. The EMDR that you engaged in three years of that. Yeah, electromagnetic data propulsion. Bingo. Sorry, that was a scientific term. How long did it take you to land on the therapist that you're referring to? That's been so great for you. How many frogs did you have to kiss? Five. Oh, wow. OK, yeah. Usually it's right away or were there some that you kind of gave them a chance for? No, there were a couple I gave a chance to and a couple of them helped in their own way. We never did the EMDR thing, though. So she was the first one to introduce that to me. And I'm very skeptical and I don't it's hard for me not anymore, though. So this is the old me, right? I never opened up. I never disclosed. I don't know. What did you do in the Marine Corps? I pushed papers. Right. So true. That's pretty traumatic. Uh-huh. And paper cut. Right. And I actually legitimately had a therapist go, did you paper cuts or what? Hey, man, they suck. You ever get one of your nail? You know, fingers. And then lemon juice. I mean, it's terrible. Oh, gosh. You just put me in cringe mode. Oh, I feel that. Had a taco one day. Lime juice with hot sauce in the eyeball. It was five. She's the sixth. So it took five. And then she was the sixth. OK. And I remember sitting on her couch for the first time ever. And she goes straight up. She's like, what? What are you looking for? Because she knew that I had kind of gone through. I go, I just need somebody open, honest. And she goes, well, we need you to be open and honest. And I go, OK. Right. Cool concept. Didn't hear it put to me that way before. And I go, I don't like sugar coating. She goes, I'm not here to sugar coat anything. I go, you got to call me out. Done. It was just simple. Oh, you're the one. You're the one I knew immediately. I'm getting goosebumps right now because she's incredible. She she's a it's funny because my wife now will call her my life coach after going through the motions of the EMDR. And what's cool about it is like it's not a one size fits all. Right. It's it's kind of you get to the end and you realize, wow. And I went through all these extra steps with it, too, because I am big on I will ruminate on past events. Yes. And I will let it absolutely destroy me to the point where I'm doing things to my body that aren't good. And it's hurting everybody around me because it turns me into this lying monster of deceit and just horrible person. But it's been your that's been your go to coping strategy. Right. Yeah. And it was really bad. And she she's just straight up open my eyes. And I went through all the motions, the extra steps, the why did we do that? I was I start I turned into a damn therapist in there. I'm like, why did we do it that way? Well, you know, you're a ruminator. So, you know, what we did is all those core memories, all those core traumatic memories that I did, you know, I had to design this Connix box or a box. I designed the Connix box. I picked the color. I picked the serial number. You name it. Lock. What do you want your lock to look like? Well, I welded everything. It was a one way shoot for my memories. Right. I will find a way in that. So she knew that I find a way into it. And she goes, OK, now what we're going to do now we've got this stack of papers. This is your past three years. Right. We're going to go through all the really traumatic events and we're going to take a snapshot and we're going to etch it on glass. And we're going to go through it. So we spent a month on that. Wow. At the end of that month, she said, pick a weapon of your choosing. And I go, what? She goes, we're going to get we're going to break some things. I said, OK, I want one of those massive oversized wrenches that you'll see on like an oil rig. Oh, yeah. And she goes, so she pulled every one of those pictures that I etched in glass and I had to break it. Wow. So I broke them. I put them into the one way shoot. Now, if I want to go into that Connex box, if I find a way in and I find the pieces and I take the time to put the pieces together, then I can ruminate on that memory. They're in pieces. I don't want to take the time. It's not fun. And what she taught me in that moment, in particular, was they're there. They'll always be there. But that is not you. Exactly. You, today, when I finished with the MDR, she goes, you're not an asshole anymore. I'm like, yes, I made it. I made it. Hold on, let me call my mom. But I was, day one, I read my file with her. Yeah. Man, I treated my family like Marines. I treated my kids. So I did that for three years. It's been a year. So four years ago, you go back four years, I've got a nine-year-old at that time and a seven-year-old. So what scared the shit out of me? Yeah, I didn't. You don't have to believe that. Do you want me to beep it? What scared me was when she said, with both of your boys, you have until they're 12 to be impactful and to really set forth the type of man that they will be. And if you have girls, the type of woman they will be. And she goes, what kind of dad are you? I'm an asshole. I was. And I wasn't all the time. We're harder on ourselves. But I was treated like Marines. I was giving my wife eggshells, what Nick's going to show up today, and what dad's going to be here tomorrow. And now I just wake up and I do my thing. And I'm a big hippie now. I'm like, I am a hippie. Tell me more. What does that mean? I don't do any illicit activities that you would picture a hippie doing. But the hippie mentality in me is more of a free spirit, free-flowing. It takes too much energy to be pissed off. It takes too much energy to be hateful. People are going through shit, too. I used to be a trauma. What did she call it? Not like trauma bonding or anything, but like a basher, trauma basher. Somebody would say, oh, I had a best friend die in high school in a car accident. Poor you. You ever scooped your best friend's brains up? Let me tell you what I had to go through. That's how I was. That's not nice, man. That's not cool. I'm supposed to be here for you, human to human, right? And going through what I went through with her opened me up to, man, I'm such a softie. I'm annoyingly open, annoyingly honest, just. And the way I was, too. Even here, the fruit snacks would disappear. Of course, I'm eating them. My wife's a hippie. You can't stop. I just bought these fruit snacks. This is the old me four years ago. We've had a lot of kids in the house. I can't even own fruit snacks to my own wife. Meanwhile, he's crunching as he's walking out to his long board before he heads to work. And now I look back at that. I'm like the simple thing of just like, yeah, they're good too, babe. That's me now. I just bought these popsicles a week ago. Yeah, they're all in my belly. I ate them. You're not in trouble. Right? I always thought I'd be in trouble because I broke a rule. In my mind, I broke a rule. And Marines don't do that. So the Marine Corps is very much my. It was my saving grace, but it's also my adulthood trigger. Sure. I mean, overrode your operating system. Oh, yeah, absolutely. It changed it 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I just can't stop picturing you riding a long board to work. I'm so like, now. Hair flowing in the wind and tied up t-shirt. Just like Adam Sandler in The Hot Chick. Hey, if you look, you put your weed in there. Yep, that's right. Yep. So funny. I also went from like, now this has gone back years and years, too, with our system that we have for veterans, the health care. It rhymes with BA. They like medication. So I mean, I had five, six different medications that I was on. And I'm a zombie. And I'm irritable. And then I'm like, everything hurts. Well, here's some pain pills. Here's. Cascading effect. Yeah, it's like all this stuff. I take one medication now. Yeah, that's great. I take one. I was able to control everything else except one. And one is my mood. And I just want to be open with this. It is weird. All the stuff I've gone through, my mood, I still can't quite. I can go to a short fuse real quick. But this one medication that I just, I'm good. Wow. Controls it all. I don't road rage. I drive really fast. I love driving. Is that a vice? I'm not sure that's a vice, is it? Oh, it's got to be. Yeah, it's got to be. You should see my life 360. By the way, today I won all the races. Good for you. Have you guys seen your garage? Seen the cars you have? I saw this car. Our son had to open his own garage because two thirds of them are his. I heard that there was a boat purchased recently. Yeah, the Live and Let Die movie. That boat in the bayou that jumps over land. It's a little tiny four seater. We have that now. Nice. Yes. They burned through 80 of those boats, by the way, in that movie. Did they really? That sounds normal. Holy cow. We got one. Pretty normal stuff. We bought it and we're on the water the same day, flying across the water. I think that's fun. Nice. That's awesome. How many times did you jump it over land? Zero as far as... Oh, actually, I think they did hit something before they picked us up. They hit a tree that was under the water. At least it was under the water and it wasn't just like diving. At least you didn't hit a tree head on. So it was like final drive issue? Like you hit the motor, prop? It did hit the prop and the side of the boat. So still, it's OK. We drove it around for another hour after that. Oh, you're fine. And Tony ran out of gas. It happens. We had paddles. It happens. We were close. I just picture you guys out there just hanging out on the boat, starts going and you're like, hell yeah, brother. We were holding on to the bottom of the seat so we didn't fly out because we didn't have, Sean and I didn't have any handles to hold on to. The water line is like six inches below the top of the boat. So you're right there on the water. Oh my gosh, that's fun. What power is this thing? It's so tiny and light. Yeah, you don't need a lot. I think it has an 85 horsepower engine on it and that thing. And how big is this? Gets up to 50 miles an hour. Holy crap, that thing will move. Yeah, it's fast. It's tiny. 50 miles an hour on water is so much faster than people realize. Oh, no, it's like 120 on land. You're doing 60, you're doing 120 on land. Picture 50 miles per hour on merry-go-round. Same thing. I got really intoxicated one time and I grew up with boats. I grew up on boats. I grew up on Lake Michigan and my all my family, they have boats on Lake Michigan and salmon fish. But this one was an inland. This was my dad's ski boat. No, it was not my dad's ski boat. What am I thinking? This was at Lake Havasu. I was in the Marine Corps. I was really intoxicated. And we had a Maxim, which is the boat my dad did own. He had a 19-foot Maxim ski boat. This was one that we rented from a marina and it had twin Merck 350s. Nice. So it would get up about 90, 95 miles an hour. And I was telling all the guys, like, hey, man, you know, you get going fast enough, you don't even feel it. You just skip across the water. And they're like, do it, yeah. I ripped my whole back. Like, oh, yeah, it was bad. I was bleeding everywhere. Oh, shoot. Something you guys don't know about Nick, Nick grew up in the not so well-known ninth mile in Detroit. So I, you know, just one step further than eighth mile. There's eight, nine, 10, and 12, then you have Telegraph. They were going to make a movie, but they couldn't figure out who was going to play the main character. They just had to scrap it. Nick wasn't available. Yeah, it was. The cows just kept dying and the whole thing. Eight Mile is nasty. It is funny, though, how many people are like, oh, you're from Michigan. How far from eight mile? OK, that was a movie. Eight Mile exists. That's where Eminem grew up. However, here's my hand. This is Detroit. I grew up way over here. Oh, so close to Detroit. No, no. How far? Couple hours. So Detroit. Yeah, sure. Detroit. That's like that thing where where somebody was saying it was it was a British guy. Winston. He always makes an appearance. Hi, buddy. There's a British guy that was talking on like a TikTok or something, and he's like, it is hard to understand how big states are in the United States. Yeah. He's like, you can drive 11 hours and still be in Texas. Yeah. And he's like, I drive 11 hours and I've gone through 12 countries. It's like, it's just funny because you don't think about it. Just the sheer size of I'm going to go with territories. I don't know if that's the right word. Landmass. Yeah, you go from the southernmost point, and I've done this before. You go from the southernmost point in Michigan to the northernmost point, and it's just a tick under 14 hours. See, that's a longer drive. Did you have to walk it? Is that why? Yeah, in the Marine Corps, yeah. No, we drove that. Yeah, it was fun. But it's cool because you go through, I swear, you change geography, typography, weather. It's wild because you get way up in the Upper Peninsula. You might as well call it Alaska. I mean, you can be up there in the middle of July, and a cold front goes through, and you'll have flurries. Really? Yeah. That's awesome. And you grew up there? Not in the Upper Peninsula. I was in the Lower Peninsula. Near Detroit, right? Yes, near Detroit, yeah. Grand Rapids, not far from Grand Rapids, like right in between Grand Rapids and Lansing. So middle of the state, it's a beautiful area. He was so close to M&M. I was so close, man. Kid Rock, M&M, you know, it was right there. Right there. Detroit Rock City, Motown. That's awesome. Hey, I'm all for it. OK, so we talked a little bit about that. Oh, I'm nervous now. Well, I'm just intrigued. Why? How? Where? Yeah. What changed? Be more specific. You guys were not in any capacity doing this or planning to do this. At some point, you had to plan to do it. Before that happened, what were you doing? And what changed to make this new step the thing? The counseling thing? Let's go with yours first. In general, yeah. That's actually a, I think it's almost harder for me. I can kind of talk about you, but. Can't we all? It's all about me. No, you did a really good job, though. Backing her up there. I like how you were talking about her. Well, I do have a perspective on what you did before. Well, yeah, I mean. And why you stopped doing that. So I was an autism specialist in early childhood in Shawnee Mission. My mother-in-law was for Olathe. Really? We'll talk. I want to know name because I worked in Olathe for a little while. I was in Shawnee Mission for 15 years. So I loved what I did. I loved what I did. I worked with some amazing, I had a great boss, and I knew her from Olathe, a long time before grad school. And so, yeah, I did my training. I got into Shawnee Mission. There were four of us. And then we ended with six of us. And we really were able to get a lot of cool grants. We did really cool things for students. We helped parents. I mean, it was just everything that you wanted. None of the politics really hit us because our boss was so incredible and she protected us. And then politics got in the way. You know what I mean, like school politics, not like real politics. And so we weren't having as much fun. And then our boss, who we loved, she lost both of her parents in the same room that she retired. So it was kind of a really rough time. Pretty big fluctuation. Right. So just change of command. And then it just wasn't fun and we didn't get to do. You were doing bus duty. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing wrong with bus duty. But we were across the district. You went from feeling like we're doing something to what the hell? Making a big impact. And we did a lot of trainings. We helped teachers. We got materials for staff. We did a lot of great trainings. Just really cool things. Much needed. It was wonderful. And I loved it. I loved every bit of it. And I liked the technology because we started integrating technology with students. And we built a couple of websites. We did some websites. We did some individual for families and to give them strategies and tools at home. So it was just great. It was wonderful. But then it changed. And so Sean was like, you know what? We can manage. We'll do websites on the side. And I was able just to quit that. Do that full time. Yeah. And I enjoyed it. So that's what it became. It became that. And then it was fine. My own personal business was fine. But then as Sean got into, what year did you make the change from you already doing? Well, I started the counseling practice in 2011. 11, yeah. And I quit in 2015. So he was four years into counseling. And so then I kind of joined in and made sure that I onboarded his clients. Because he was realizing he was working so much, he would forget to like, oh, maybe I should check for any new inquiries that are coming in that need a counselor. It was the growing pains. I was so busy that I couldn't take care of new clients that needed to be onboarded. And then I'd be like, Ghost Town, not busy at all. I'm like, oh my gosh. You were swamped or we had nobody. Nobody had the books. So then I'm like, why don't I schedule your people? Why don't I get you? And so I just onboard his clients. And it's been fun. This sounds like the dynamic of my wife and I totally. Yeah. Yeah, it does. I was thinking the same thing. Yeah, it's a lot like that, actually. She tees it up for me. Yeah, no, it's great. Yeah, but we lift each other up, too. Like, I love it. You're my kind of people. Well, and it was fun because it would give me something to do to help her. So I enjoyed building the website. And yeah, some marketing things. And yeah, I started to teach myself how to do SEO. Yeah, I was applying that to my own business. Yeah, but was able to kind of do that for some of the companies that she was helping. Just, you know, that's awesome. Yeah. Show up on the Google. I don't enjoy billing. I don't do billing. I don't enjoy any of that part. Sean managed that. That's like my cup of tea. I would love to do that. Let me just do the work. You get a bill. You get a bill. You get a bill. Everybody gets a. I didn't mess with it. You're using the reduce number 500 . Exactly. No. So that's really cool, because I say, that's really cool because it is such a vastly different world than what you were doing before. I mean, it's just funny to see. Well, I missed people. I missed the kids, I missed staff. I missed doing fun things like that. But I mean, it was a nice shift and it worked out. It really did and then I've been able to add like a social impact with, like I said, I meet with friends, you know, during the day and do other things, but, and then future, just, we'll talk about this as we go, but like now we're doing some stuff together that's not counseling, but it's more marriage enrichment that I get to be a part of, and I love that. I like it. Love that. That's our- Coaching, I like that. Mission. Yeah. Yeah, we have a pretty good marriage, which is kind of surprising. Wasn't there. We almost divorced. Did you know that? Have you heard that part? Nope. I don't readily give people your information on that. You can, totally. Divorce papers filed. We were separated for 18 months. Do you see my goosebumps on my leg right now? I don't, but I don't regularly look at your legs. Yeah, you do, don't lie. Not that close. No, not that, not that. That's not growing there, the goosebumps. Yeah. No, and I know a little bit about this story. Wow. But yeah. Well, this story has a lot to do with why I became a counselor. Sure. Okay, I'm gonna buckle up. Because Sean was a, before counseling, Sean was a caterer. I owned a catering business. Okay, I knew that. I knew you were a caterer. I was a chef for that business. Okay. Which, let's be honest, man, the fact that I haven't had you make me a meal is borderline bananas. Let me just tell you, he messes up everything. I'm retired. And to pull me out of retirement. My wife went through culinary. Oh, did she? Yeah. Oh, really? Uh-huh. Does she go local around here? County Community College. I was there for a while. But I launched my business at the same time. And then she went, we met when she was finishing her master's in hospitality business management at Michigan State. Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. That's really cool. And it's really cool. To me, I think it's genius to marry somebody who's in culinary. You should see what I ate tonight. Right. I have like. She break out the tweezers and put on like the cilantro. Dude, I had street tacos. Costa Rica. From the streets? Like she made them. Tacos from the streets, man. Chicken tacos, man. That's awesome. I do love a good street taco. You know what though? Time out. I'm sorry. We're going off on a tangent. We do this all the time. It's a good tangent to go on. The culinary expert in the room needs to tell me something. What makes it a street taco? Yes. I need to know this too. Because here's the deal. If I order it from a menu, are they heading out back and you're like, I'm gonna grab this dude a taco from the streets. You're working with what you got. Yeah. But you're putting your own personal spin on it. So a little side story. I went with my father, who I call dad. He's my adoptive dad. That's my dad. I went with him and my stepmom to Mexico years ago. And this is right before they moved there for several years. And so we're like in the interior part of Mexico. These little tiny towns. And eating, like part of our main task of the day was to go hit up the street taco vendors. I love that. And these little carts get wheeled out in the town square. And these are like little tiny towns. Salvatierra, was that where? Well that was like, that's a bigger. That's a bit too big of a town. But they had two carts. And each taco, like we're gonna go to this place because it's got these types of tacos. And then we're gonna go over here and it's got those types of tacos. Oh, because everybody's putting their own spin. Yeah. And I mean, I had some pretty adventurous tacos. He's like, don't look at it, just eat it. I'm like, what? I'm gonna look at it. He's like, well, don't look at it while he's cooking. I'm like, dad, come on. That one's a bowl test. Oh, those are brains. Those are brains going right in the skillet there. So, okay. Wow. And it was amazing. It was amazing. So street tacos are just your spin on tacos. However you like it with whatever fresh food. That's cool. Supplies you can bring to that. There's no wrong way to do it. That's awesome. I guess if it doesn't taste good, something's wrong. So technically, I could go into my kitchen right now, break out a tortilla. I got myself a street taco if I put the right things that I put on it. Maybe a little marshmallow floss, a little chocolat. They only have to be right to you. I don't think you're getting it. You're definitely not getting it. I'm not sure you get it. That sounds delicious. I think Nick's got it. I think he's onto something. That sounds like you're onto something. You're in Kansas City. Well, I am, I am. I'm not exactly a taco expert, but I do like tacos. You can tell by my stature. Oh, I love tacos, man. Tacos are the best. Tacos are great. Tacos are great. Food is great. Food is great. And that was something, like I grew up just really fascinated with food and cooking as a kid. I would watch cartoons on Saturday morning and then Julia Child would come on and I would grab a notepad and pen and start writing stuff down. I was a weird kid. Food is communication. King's chef and galbi. Some of these old shows from the 70s. Yeah. I'm that old and I would take notes. Yeah. And I started cooking, playing with food as a kid. Wow, that's cool. Yeah. Sounds like my wife. She used to do that too. Yeah. That's cool. I mean, it's something that comes natural. It's in the blood. My family lineage has some culinary arts in it. And so like when we were in college and I changed my degree multiple times. I was gonna be an architect since I can remember and then I had to change and change. Then you realize you were building like gingerbread houses and you're like, well son of a bitch. There's not a whole lot of money in that. I am into culinary school now. But I had my psychology degree and I was on the same track to do what Mindy was doing working with children on the spectrum. But I just realized, I don't think I wanna do that. Yeah. And my step-mom put a bug in my ear. She's like, you're great with food. You should consider doing a career like that. And so I enrolled at Juco while we were gallivanting in the Caribbean after we graduated college. That's awesome. And then came back and- We worked at a Mexican restaurant by, an outdoor Mexican restaurant in the middle of St. Thomas. Had a blast, came back, started culinary school and then got a job at a country club because the school, the dean of the school is like, you're more like management material. You don't wanna be in the kitchen. And so I got assistant manager job at a big country club here in Kansas City and two months later I was like, I am out of here. This is miserable. And then I launched my own little personal chef service initially cooking for people in their homes doing like a couple of weeks worth of food. Nice. And then other people that knew me just started asking me to do like little things here and there and it turned into weddings. And then I started to get into corporate stuff and then it just, I mean, it was an overnight success after about four years. Those are my favorite. Yeah. And so, I mean, we were doing all these big events, big corporate stuff, going in multiple directions per day. And it was a lot of fun, but I was working my butt off and was never home. Yeah. And we started to kind of grow apart as a result of that and it was kind of feast or famine. And so anytime like there was a holiday, that's when people need catering, right? They need catering, yeah. And so I couldn't really be present for any of those holidays. Sure, yeah. And it just, it kind of took its toll. And there was just a variety of things that kind of came to a head. And I had a lot of drama and trauma growing up that I'd never really processed. Sure. And so over time that started to resurface like Pandora's box ruptured and all that came up and I didn't know what to do with that. And some friends of ours suggested that I probably ought to seek some professional help work through that. And we were like nodding in agreement, but internally saying, I'm not effing doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. And tried to do what I always did before, which is just rub some dirt on it, stuff all that down and like, we'll just move on. I'm fine. And I was definitely not fine. You were not fine. I was not fine. And I started to kind of swirl the drain, so to speak. And alcohol entered into the equation quite a bit and just kind of started to experience some moral failures in a variety of ways that were not conducive for having a healthy marriage. And finally came clean on that stuff and Mindy rolled up her sleeves and we're like, okay, let's get to work. And so we had a treatment team back then. All kinds of counseling. But I wasn't really in it. I think I wanted to be engaged. I would say you wanted to, but you were pretty deep into it. And so I think that was your struggle. Because I consistently saw it. He was like, I really wanna do what's right. I wanna be the husband and the father and all that. And I'm like, okay. And I really believe you always wanted to do that. It's just then you would get in another company and it was like, oof. Other people in my ear, yeah. Right, right. And then I just kind of lost hope because I realized I just want to want to do this, but I have no follow through. I don't know where my mojo or my grit went. I had no self control. I had no, just no follow through. And then I just started to believe lies that I think I settled. I don't think I ever loved you. I think I felt trapped. He said that in counseling once. He said, I don't think I really believe I have ever loved you. And I was like, that's not true. Yeah. I don't take it. I was just trying to sabotage everything. I was about to know. Well, misery loves company and you're going to invite all 15 different yous to the party. Yeah. And I actually started to believe that stuff and I thought, well, she'd be better off without me and my boys would be better off without me. Oh, man. And who knows? The grass will be greener on the other side. Well, that's a huge lie. And so six months after I moved out, I was gun in hand on Christmas night of 06. And like was suicidal. Yeah. And it was a dire moment. Yeah. And I don't like to hyper-spiritualize things, but I had an encounter where God just stopped me in my tracks. And he showed me why I was in that place, which really, I mean, he showed me the things that I was responsible for, which was very sobering and I couldn't deny it. But then he began to show me all the trauma that came at the hands of all these other people. And he's like, and that's not even the source of it. And then it got to that father wound that I had, my biological father, who was not really involved in my life hardly at all, maybe to some degree when I was really little, but after age nine or 10, I saw him maybe four times, three times, I think. And he showed me how that abandonment wound was at the source of my striving and how broken I was. And he showed me like, you've been trying to earn the love and respect of a man you do not even know. By the way, he was a chef. Oh, wow. And a food critic for a newspaper. Yeah, and I didn't learn that from him. That's insane. It's in the DNA, I guess. And then the guy was just like, look at how much that has wrecked you. And it's really kind of the source code for all the other traumas that occurred because you didn't have a father there to protect you. Yeah. And that did a lot of harm. And then he brings my boys to the forefront of my mind. He said, here's what's different about them. Like you didn't even know your father hardly and it wrecked you. They know you and they adore you. And so if you- And you're gonna wreck them. If you do this, it's not gonna be the same for them. It's gonna be worse. And I couldn't bear the thought. So it was enough to stop me in my tracks and I put the gun down, but then I was like, okay, well, why don't you come on down here and fight me like a man because that's, I'm ready to- I had a very similar moment. Did you? Yes, I did, but I'm not gonna stop you in your tracks, you go. Yeah, I mean, and I was- I got goosebumps now, man. Raging. I have them. I was raging. I was alone in my apartment, downtown Kansas City. I was in my car. On Christmas night, 06, screaming. He didn't take me up on that offer. Certainly not because he's scared of me because he's not scared of me. But what happened after that for the next several months was really just me wrestling out my faith, wrestling out God's character, my character. And then I started to seek wisdom and to learn about wisdom, you gotta learn about foolishness. So there's lots of examples about that in my life. And in that process, he was just really faithful to me and he was really compassionate and gentle, but also very direct and pulled me from my pit and taught me about forgiveness, taught me how to forgive myself, which was kind of a challenge. That's the hardest. Well, he confronted me on that. He's like, oh, so your sin is so bad that what Christ did on the cross isn't enough for you? That's kind of a slap in the face. Well, aren't you Gandhi? And he basically is like, this is my story. I'm like, and then it was a matter of saying, my grace is sufficient. I don't think you understand what that word means. It's more than you need. So now you're either gonna choose to believe it or you're not. What's it gonna be? And it was decision time. So I'd already become a Christian at age 20, but this was totally different. It was a totally different faith experience and it's really, yeah, it was like a rite of passage for me. And so, huge weight lifted off of me. And like that same night, he allowed me or showed me how to forgive all those people that had hurt me growing up. It was like a police lineup of people. And that was a huge weight lifted off my shoulders. And so from there, I was just like, okay, this is new, this is exciting, but now I have some clarity and I can see the wake of devastation of who I've been. And by that time, we had been- We were separated for six months at that point, about. Well, that's more like eight or nine when that- Oh yeah, because it was June 30th is when he moved out. And that was- March. March was when I, he stopped me in my tracks in December, but forgiveness, I wrestled that out in March. Right. And then he put an amazing mentor in my life and just kinda that guy, pretty salty. He survived the Holocaust. He was a child in a concentration camp and was liberated from that camp. But before that, he was permitted to live only to be ushered into the medical scientific department of that camp with his mother and pretty atrocious things. And he lived to tell about it. And he helped me just get back on track and kinda like be bold enough to tell Mindy I didn't want a divorce, which I got the look of like, kinda late for that. Yeah, yeah. It hadn't been finalized yet. There was no reason why it hadn't really. I'd filed back in July and we weren't divorced yet. I wasn't fighting it. I didn't even have an attorney. He didn't have an attorney. I had the only attorney who just hadn't finalized it yet, so. Well, that's why. Was there a reason? Probably gonna get saved with God. Yeah. Yep. But like you hadn't pursued that. Yeah, but the attorney would show up and the judge would not show up. Yeah. So it was like, there were like things. It just never. Yeah, it was active but never moved. My attorney, I mean, there was no fighting. Oh, I'll tell you what power stopped that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Somebody had a bad street taco and. Yeah. Been making a lot of love tacos. That's right. Exactly. Oh, man. Yeah. No, that is. I don't think either one of us have ever been this speechless. No, and I mean. It's very deep. I've heard parts of these stories and it is a, I mean, it's such a commendable story due to the fact that like it's, there's so many layers to that and it's not, I mean, that's kind of still the surface of the story truthfully, right? There's a lot more to it than that, which is like. Oh, yeah. I just so appreciate the story because it's such a real, it's exceptionally vulnerable. It's a real situation. It's made you guys who you are today and it's. And it's so relatable. It is. A lot of people. A lot of people. A lot of people have. Well, I'm gonna use this word loosely so don't take this negatively. It's kind of funny to see now because like I just. Who would have thought, right? Well, I've heard some other stories and it's like, you guys are ridiculous and that's hilarious. Wait, what stories have you told Nick? Well, okay. I'm gonna tell a story that I heard that I thought was just funny as hell that you told me about you. That you know that I know that you just don't remember because we talked about it about a situation where I don't know what was going on. He was in the kitchen and you were in a family room or something. He just had a t-shirt. Oh. Oh. I don't know. You like intentionally reached for something in a top cap. What the hell, man? What? Hey. What happens in production stays in production, Nick. Hey, man. Apparently not. This ain't Vegas. Now it's out in a podcast. No, we have a great marriage. And it is. You know, the three people that'll hear it, it's gonna be great. Yeah, it'll be fine. Sorry, you had to hear that. It is, no. I think it's the beautiful part of marriage and when you don't have like, when your kids are out of the house or they're spending the night somewhere else, then you can just be silly. Yeah, I'm really not that upset. I'm quite confident in my body. So that's right. I will probably do it again tonight when we get home. There you go. Unless my son comes home. But that's my point. See, that's my point though, is that that is, it is probably more uncommon that you get to the point in your guys' marriage where you were and come back from it. It was in a deficit and now on a scale of one to 10, we have an 11. And I would say, I can confidently say that if somebody were to meet you guys and they didn't know that story, they would be flabbergasted that that portion of your life even existed. Yeah. Right. Because you don't see it, right? And I understand that that comes from a lot of hard work. Yeah. I mean, don't get me wrong. There's times where I'm like, I don't know if this is working. It's not working out. You know what I tell my wife? You're tired of me? Go to sleep. We'll try again tomorrow. Let's try this again later. That's a great way to do it. Exactly. Get a good sleep. We'll be fine. We'll be fine tomorrow. Sorry, I cut you off, Nick. No, no, I love it. This is what it's about. It's just reality. And I think that, like I said so many times, and I think that the most important aspect is that it's so real. And it's just, it's not... How many times we said, things are not really talked about. There's always a facade. There's always a... This. There's always a level of like, I have to put a bit of a show on, which is exactly like when we say... So it's masks. I used to wear masks. Yes, me too. Right? Yeah. Well, and I think that in a lot of ways that that is pretty common in general. I think that that's why the question pops up. Every time you meet someone, I'm gonna say every time. Most times you meet someone, the first question is, what do you do? Because that apparently tells everybody everything they need to know about you. Oh, he's a good guy. Well, what if I'm like, yeah, I'm a UFC fighter. I'm a shooter. I'm a... Yeah. What are the answers that could be... Is there some list I don't know about on Reddit that's like, these are the good answers, and these are the bad answers. It's like, yeah, this guy's a good guy, and this guy's a shitbag. Right. Like, you know? Can we just have a label right here? That's not part of my job description. But I think my point is that if we're gonna talk as if everything is all right and everything is good, why would we have this reason to not talk about when things are not good? If all days are good days, no days are good days. Yeah. And that's just not... There's no upside if everything has to be great. No. My mom and dad used to say all the time that if life was... Because as a child, you're like, why can't I just be perfect at sport? And usually for me, it was sports, right? Like, why can't I be perfect? Right. And my mom and dad used to say, well, if it was perfect, it'd be boring. Right. You need a little bit of the suck to appreciate. Yeah. It's the bitter and the sweet together. Absolutely. It's the same concept as like, we've talked about a lot of different things and a lot of different professions and a lot of really difficult ones and other ones that are more on the fun sides and things like that, right? But if it was easy, then everybody would do it. And if everybody was good at it, then it's like, oh, well, now we're just all doing the same thing. Well, there's nothing really truly worthwhile that comes easy. No, not at all. Right. If it's easy, it probably doesn't have a whole lot of substance or longevity to it. Right, that's true. So I think you've got to go through hardship in order to learn and to grow. And I think that is just part of life. Like part of life is going through the suffering and figuring out how to find gratitude, how to find joy, how to find peace. And obviously, faith kind of permeates a lot of our everyday life. Sure. I don't know how people do it without faith, but at the same time, there's no... You know, I think about that too, a lot. How do you do it without? Because I know what it did for me. Well, I mean, yeah, I know what I did without faith. Yeah, I can't even go, right? I'm my own worst enemy. We had the same, it's so crazy how similar, like I'm still stuck on that. It's crazy. Well, in that season that we were in, when I boldly shot my shot again, telling her I didn't want a divorce, and she sought wise counsel and I had to, and basically we agreed to go back to work. So she called off the divorce and we re-engaged in counseling. And this time I actually was like all in. And so after 18 months total, we found ourselves renewing our vows. Heck yeah. I moved back in after that. We did a little mini honeymoon. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of fun. And a year later, I had lost my job. I had closed my catering business during, like right after I had moved out and was just working as a chef and running a kitchen at a local mega church, if you want to call it that. And I kind of worked myself out of a job. They let me go. And at that time, God was starting to lay in my heart. This question of like, hey, if you'd be willing, that thing we did, I could use that if you'd be willing. And my initial thought to that was like, well, that's crazy. There's no way I'm doing that. I don't like people. Yeah. Why would I want to help people? It took a while and I'm thick headed. And maybe kind of like an angsty teenager in my relationship with God, but he had to keep coming back to me. And he's like, you're not listening to me. I didn't say if. Yeah. I said, when you submit to this, you're going to use you, your story, your marriage, your childhood to help people. And you're going to share those things. You're going to be transparent. You're going to be vulnerable. And I'm like, that sounds really hard. Yeah. So I was just like, okay. So I found myself enrolling in- So my favorite part is we had, we had a few counselors ourselves in the dark days, marriage 1.0. Burned through a few. We burned through some. There you go. And the last counselor that we had was just a sage of a man, just most amazing man, Dr. Larry Cornyn. He passed away a year ago, two years ago. Two years ago, yeah. But he was just this like shorter man. He had like a crew cut, white hair. Navy guy. He had little smiley eyes and he would just, he'd be like, okay. And the last time I had seen him was the actual day that I moved out before us. Oh, no way. Right, right. We had gone to counseling that day. And then that night, Sean was like, yeah, I think I'm done. So anyway, it rolled into the next time where Sean called- Called him up. He called Dr. Cornyn and who happened to be the Dean of the School of Counseling at Midwestern where Sean got his degree. Okay. And Sean was like, hey, Dr. Cornyn, this is Sean Rutherf, I don't know if you remember me. And he says, Oh, I remember you. Okay. Hilarious. You're like, what? And I said, well- Is that a good remember? Do you remember me? Yeah. No, not a good. I'd love to update you on what's happened since the last time I saw you. He's like, great, come on up. Let's meet. Yeah. And we had lunch and I told him everything that had occurred. And I left with an application to enroll in the master's program at a seminary. Hmm. Get the hell out of here. No kidding, right? With his promise to be my mentor, my advisor. Wow. And he's like, I got you. If they give you any pushback, I'll go to bat for you. Okay. I'm like, okay. Then I got accepted into the school. And for the first three or four months, every time I'd drive up on campus, I would just laugh. And I would just be like- What am I doing? I cannot believe who am I. I'm driving on to a seminary to go to school. Do they know? Oh my gosh. If they would have known who I was just two years ago. Yeah. Two years ago. Like, what a stark contrast. Yeah. I, oh man, I feel that. I'm an open book, you know, in my chair because I see people all day from all different walks of life. I have a lot of bombs that are dropped on me and am I nowhere near in the capacity, like you to be able to like, hey, have you thought about, I let them. Just listening. I just listen. And I tell all of them, I'm like, if you knew me five years ago, six years ago, a decade ago, you'd be like, I do not need to be asking you for any kind of guy. You would know because 10 years ago, I was X amount of pills in and drinking like as I'm cutting hair. Yeah. Yeah. I was not the same guy. But again, a very real aspect of it. Like it's just hard because I always struggle with the fact that we can't be honest with people, not because of who we are really, but because of the things we do that maybe it's like everything has to be shameful or I'm afraid of what somebody thinks. And I mean, I think everybody's guilty of that in a lot of ways. Oh yeah. Which is not like specific to anybody, but it's really, it's scary and sad and it's really lonely. Right? Yeah, yeah. That's just not, there's no way that that's how it should be. No, right. Like that can't be the answer. That's the brokenness of the world we live in. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We talk a lot about as we've started to embark on coaching and helping healthy marriages like get even healthier. The concept of making each other feel really safe and secure, but that could mean a lot of different things. So it could be making each other feel seen, listened to, understood, cared for, protected, and the list goes on. Like there's a stair step to this to ultimately and ideally to feel loved unconditionally. And I think as human beings, that's really challenging because we're not God, we're not perfect. Yeah. In our brokenness, we can struggle with those things, but as we've continually tried to nurture a healthy and thriving marriage, we just keep dialing it in little by little by little. And I tell you what, if you're married, that person is the best candidate to truly know you and love you well. And if that's not happening, it's not all them. Like you're both playing a role in what prevents that from occurring. And there's things that you can do, but you gotta build safety and security and have some honest conversations because those masks can be worn in your own home. Oh yeah. They were. Of course. So it's work, but it's some of the most worthwhile work you can do. And it's never too late to start. We've been married for 30 years now. So I would say after year 25, 26. 25 was like a turning point. Right. And I think we grew in emotional intimacy, like really sharing your inner things that we didn't necessarily share with anybody else. But then we started opening that up and spiritual and letting, those were uncomfortable, but it's made our marriage even stronger. Yeah. Which is awesome. That's so cool. Any kind of circumstances. Oh my gosh. You guys can do better. You've not been married as long as we have, so you can do this at a much. Oh yeah. No, and I think we both, that's what's cool is we both acknowledge that, right? Where it doesn't get acknowledged enough. I've, I know what I've driven her through. Right? Yeah. And she hasn't driven me near there. There's time. There is time. And it's for me, and maybe you've felt this way in the past with your story and with mine being so similar, I catch myself sometimes with how she has made it to where she is with me. How do I repay that? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like how? Yeah, for sure. That's a tough one for me, even now being where I'm at, like what can I show you today to make you feel how I feel? Right? Yeah, yeah. Because I, there's no, I don't ever feel lack of. And I know she doesn't, but how do I go that extra, right? And I think some people listening might feel that too. Like how, you did this for me, how do I make it better for you? Obviously I think there's a really good sentiment in that and finding the right sort of action steps to follow it. But at the same time, I think keeping score of that, like it would be easy for you and I to keep score of like how much of a deficit we are to try to catch up. I don't think we're ever gonna catch up. The fact that our wives love us as well as they have through thick and thin, like they're gonna keep doing that. So as much as we start to do more, they're still doing the same thing. The same thing. So it's just a matter of like keep showing up, trying to figure out how to love well as life and the circumstances change. There's just different seasons that come along, all kinds of distractions. And so you just have to be intentional. And communication. I love it. I was hoping you were gonna go to intentional. Yeah, that's to be intentional. My wife, if she was here right now, she'd say, oh my gosh, you sound like Nick. That's what I, it's the intentional. Like that's, it's the intent to. Does she even listen to the podcast? She does, religiously, yeah. She does, awesome. So yeah, intentionality, being a really good student of your spouse, being their biggest fan. Student, I have not heard that. Here's one of our little ground rules and we use a lot of catch phrases for our ground rules. But we give each other first dibs of anything good or bad, first dibs. Before I tell anybody else, I tell her and vice versa. And it's just making each other the priority. Obviously, God is the number one priority. But this relationship is like the highest priority here in an earthly form. Well, it's what he envisioned, the grand plan. Yeah, and there's a sanctification process in the marriage, just like our own individual sanctification with God, as we become more like Christ. But I think finding ways to really practice that fandom, to give first dibs, to be intentional, to be a student. And communication is key, because without proper healthy communication and feedback, you might be missing something. And so it's just a practice. And this maybe is an outside observation of just in general being the newest member to the married gang. You guys have been married one year. I have been on earth one year longer. Gosh. So I don't wanna make you feel old. Not at all, Nick. He even makes me feel old. I was just a thought. I wasn't even a thought. I was gonna say, were you a thought? I was just a tiny bubble floating around, a bag of screws. Hey. Hey. Wow. How old are you, Nick? 31. Oh my goodness. He could be our son. You know that. It's true. Yeah. It's true. Wow. That what I mean. That what I meant. Yeah, I don't wanna say it. Yeah. You guys had to put up with all that. The legitimate son. But yeah, I mean, I think the reality is is that Annie and I talk a lot about how we're each other's partner in things. We're each other's teammates. And I think I like to use the word teammate because there's a common goal at the end for that. And I think the common goal is continued growth every day. And it's about the journey for us. And I think truthfully, we don't have a lot of strong feelings as of today. We don't have a lot of strong feelings about a lot of things. So we don't have this intrinsic, we're gonna fight about a lot of things because it's pretty short-lived situations for us realistically. But that's not to say that that's always going to be the case. Right. And I mean, I think everybody has. We've had a couple of times where it's like, we are, we just need some space for a few minutes. Yep. Don't know what that's like. Yeah. Never heard of that. Yeah, I mean, and it's real too. And I think it's just important to be honest with yourself, like you said, and important to be honest with whomever it is that you're in this engagement with, right? And I don't know what that looks like for everyone. But I think from my own experience, it's just really important to be on the same page. And if you're not gonna be on the same page, at least be roughly in the same chapter. Yeah. Right, like, because I can't be so far ahead or behind and be able to put any kind of value towards my relationship. And I certainly can't put any kind of, I can't help her rights. Like I can't, Winston. Winston's here. And I can't be that supportive factor in any way if I'm not anywhere near that, right? Like it's just reality to me. And I may be oversimplifying things, of course, but I think the reality is still, you gotta be in it together. I like, and I like the teammate factor that you brought up because I say that too a lot, you know, like team Brown, woo-hoo, you know? But if you're in roughly that same chapter and you treat each other like a team, then you know that there's this goal that you're both trying to get to, right? So that team is- Team wins together. Yeah, yeah, no matter where you're at in that chapter, in that book, if you're both trying to reach the end, one of you is gonna be faster, one of you is gonna be slower, one of you is gonna comprehend a little better. Absolutely. That's where I like the team thing. Because I say that a lot too. You each play a role, right? Well, but there's skill sets, right? That's why I like to think about it as a team because I think for me, knowing that I am just not great with some things that she's really good at, so I'm naturally not going to hone in on those. No, that's not to say that I'm not gonna try to practice to be better at some of those things because naturally I would like to to be helpful or whatever that may be. But then there's things that she's like, I'm out, you're in. I want nothing to do with this, this is you, I'm not gonna, and that's totally fine. Even the dumbest things, I'm gonna tell you right now, I am absolutely never going to empty the dishwasher. Now that is a very surface level, annoying, stupid thing that I can call out today. You're gonna have to. 100% there is, right? And I do it. But I am a little silly Sally, annoying little nanny boy about it. That's me with laundry. You can work on that. Right, yeah, and it's one of those things that I do not like to do. And she knows that I don't like to do it, so she would do it more often. Now, my wife's at work and I've got the day off. That needs to happen. It's gonna happen because I really would like to make my wife happy. And that is one way that I can do that so it's something less that she has to do when she gets home. Now, the days that it doesn't happen, she's not like, what the hell you been doing all day? So it's like, there's balances in things, right? There's preferences, but you'll step into it. Right, and of course, like I said, I'm using a pretty surface level example here, but the reality is is that it's really about there's always give and take. And my wife's gonna laugh, because I'm gonna use a Sleep Token verse, because I'm a big Sleep Token fan, it's a band. If you're not familiar with them, there is a line in one of their songs where he says, is it something you give that you can never receive in return? And it's such an interesting, like every time I hear it, I think of it differently. And I think of it differently because it depends on where I'm at that day mentally of how I think of that line, because I think that that can change. And I think that that changes a lot between people, because there are times when I cannot, that I can do everything right and just feel like I had a rough day, or there's things where I can just be a pain in the ass and everything goes wrong, and I'm like, man, I had a really good day today. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's just like, there's- That is so right. But it's a mental space, right? So like if you're constantly putting yourself down or you're constantly putting your partner down, then you should expect to have a pretty crappy experience. So if you're not building each other up to your point, then you should expect to have a pretty crappy experience. I mean, I think this was a holy long walk for a short drink of water. But I like it. But I'm thirsty. Yeah. Pour away. I just think that it's important to know that you have to be able to give and take. Yeah, you do. Eventually, things will run out if you're constantly taking. Yeah. Yeah, in a lot of ways, that's mental. A lot of ways, that's physical. A lot of ways, that's just things. Emotional. Yeah. Yeah, emotional, absolutely. I think that's a good example, though, because it's like when you're doing something that you don't, that's like the superficial dishwashing thing, it means more, I'm sure, to her whenever you're like, oh, she recognizes it and sees it as it's a bigger effort. When Sean does things that he doesn't enjoy doing, but he does it for me, I'm thinking, I really appreciate that. I know that wasn't fun for you and vice versa. I don't really want to mow today. I like mowing. So do I. I love mowing. I hate laundry. I hate cooking. On Mondays, when I'm off, I surprise her. I'll be like, laundry's done, because she'll usually say like, oh, I got to put a load in. Okay. It's done. Nailed it. And I don't do it for the, you know, hey, I did all the laundry. Yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, I used to be that way. Yeah, look what I did. Yeah. It's the thank yous aren't as cool. I need the stars on my chart. Yeah. Yeah, it's like she has another child. She has to put that on there. Congratulations. You want to get a pizza? Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah. I brought you a cookie. Ooh, look at that, jinx. High five, up top. That's right, man. No, such a cool story. And I think in a lot of ways, a really inspiring story, because you think, I mean, it's just real. It's real. Yeah. It wasn't pretty. Yeah. I mean, it was really pretty ugly. No, I'll bet not. Ashes. It was in utter ashes. It was ashes and it's so lovely to go, look, man, we don't even have any twitches. We can talk about it and not even be. There's some stories, we won't go into them here, but there's some pretty gory detailed stories of things and we've told people and they're like, what? I mean, it's like Jerry Springer moments. Yeah. Really? And I'm like, let's put it this way. I had a family member. Well, let me back up because I don't want to throw anybody under the bus, but we know somebody. Who knows somebody, who knows somebody. It's a family member. I got a call from the producer of the Dr. Phil show, inviting me to join a family member on said TV show. What? Nice. Yes. I politely declined. Now, now, now, Sean. How does that make you feel? Yeah. So that kind of drama, I grew up with. Sure. Not all the time, but there's moments and I'm not trying to throw family under the bus. I love my family. I don't have contact with everybody, but I can still love from afar. Yeah. And that's what I was steeped in. Well, I returned to what I knew by inviting that same kind of drama into our lives during what we lovingly refer to as the dark days. The dark days. There's times where we had police on the doorstep and restraining orders and all kinds of fun stuff. So this was Genesis pre-white. Yeah. Yeah. Too much. Yeah. Buck and the mire. It was brutal. Yeah. So we've come a long way, babe. I don't enjoy drama. You no longer just us. I don't either, but man. Man. We don't like it, but man, we can create it, can't we? We don't, yeah. Oh, baby. Yeah. I can fit right in. I think that's why I'm so good at what I do. It's like, oh, I totally know that. Yeah. That's familiar. But on the other side of it, having to process like really make sense of those things and heal from that and forgive and learn to love. Like all that has helped me just on my own personal journey. Yeah. And then that equips me or it helps me want to know more on how to show up for like people who are in need of some of those resources or tools and techniques. And so I just, I come at it with a lot of experience both personal and professional and without judgment. I mean, Jerry Springer, Dr. Phil, like whatever the case may be. All right, let's do it. Let's do it, right. Yeah, man, I love that. So now we need to get Jerry on the phone. Sounds like, Jerry, Jerry. I think he. He's no longer with us, unfortunately. Well, you know, I stand corrected. Yeah. Or Maury, we could see if Maury is still around. Oh, Maury. I don't know. He might be gone too. Okay, you want to hear something really funny? But you are not the father. You were on the Maury show? No, Sally Jessie Raphael. No. But I wasn't like on it. I was there in the audience. You were on it. Yeah, it was pretty cool. And then you applied to be on Ricky Lake. Oh, you know it. You know it. Wow. I know. I dug pretty deep. I remember. I remember my grandpa ripping the remote out of my hands to watch Phil Donahue's show. Oh my goodness. Jeez. How about Geraldo? Oh, Geraldo? Yeah. You guys are going down a path. Off air, I have a really good story about Geraldo. I cannot bring it up on air. Okay. Well, then in that case, you signed an NDA. You bet. We're done here. Let's get the next party. All right, guys. That's an awesome story. That is an awesome story. And I think that now we have a really good opportunity to talk more about you guys as people now. So let's take a quick break and we'll be right back. Okay. Red lights on. Welcome back. My wife is gonna be pissed off about the slurp thing. She gets so mad when I do that. I did the other day in the car and I started choking. She's like, that's what you get. Yeah, you're right. That's true. That's exactly what I get. Okay, guys. You have gotten into some stuff in the first part of the episode here. I think part two, it's always a little bit more about like you guys. Like, who are you really, right? What flips the switch? What makes you you? Yeah. And you don't have to go too far into detail. It's just a matter of giving more of a vision into who you are outside of what brought you to where you are professionally and kind of where you are in life now. What do you do on the regular? What kind of things are hobbies for you? Stuff like that. Fire away. This is where the waterboarding starts. Let's present it as I am your potential employer. Tell me a little bit about yourself. I'm unemployable, so I'll see you later. Okay, well, at least you were honest. I want to bring that guy back for a second interview. Because I think I can do it better than you. See, there you go. That's part of it. It's probably a problem on my part, but boom. No judgment here, my friend. That was very office-based. That's not a true statement. It's just this mindset that I've had for most of my life. I respect it. Well, I respect it. I've gotten me into a little bit of trouble. No. So ever. Ever. So let's do this. If you were to categorize yourself or to describe yourself using three words, what would those three words be? Goofy. Oh, I like it. We haven't heard that yet. Complex. Oh my goodness. Ah! Lord, listen to that IQ. Aesthetic. Just seeing it coming. This is waiting for it to pop. But also goofy. Organized. Ooh. I can see that. I can see that, yeah. Teddy bear. That's a two, that's two words. Do you see how to use four? Hyphenated. Sorry, I didn't mean to jump the gun there. I don't portray myself as that way. So if you get to see that side, it's like I've lowered my guard. Okay, I like that. Yeah. I'm trying to, you can't limit me to one word. That's why I gave you three. You're on your third now. I'm on my third. Classic. Let me see if I can hyphen a bunch of words together. Okay. Like getting to know you. I like to know people. I like to hear their stories. Kind of like what you guys are doing here. Yeah. Yeah. That's what I do. If I could replace the word complex. So you're a podcaster. Maybe I'm a future podcaster. I kind of have a, yeah. Let's strike through complex. Okay. Like cerebral. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I don't want to use hyper analytical because you're going to get all upset about another hyphenated. That's because that's a man. Pushing buttons. Don't get me on the sensor button. Don't get the kids on the sensor button, man. Oh gosh. They'll come in here and just 20 minutes later, they're still pressing the sensor button or they're going distorting their voice. So I'm way better. I didn't hear all that. God, is that you? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you should know. Right? Sound like that. No, it was just like, wake up idiot. Okay. It certainly wasn't a burning bush. Yeah. Right, right. So, all right, using those words that you just used to describe yourself, where do you think they fit into your day-to-day now? So if you were to say, let's just use, okay, so you use cerebral, right? Yeah. How does that play into your day-to-day now? So with my career and as I sit with people, I'm trying to create a safe space. So I have to have a level of attunement as to what that might look like for there because everyone is unique. And so I'm studying them. Yeah. And I've been learning how to do that since I was a kid. Right. So with that, then I'm taking mental notes, I'm piecing together details of their lives, kind of creating this visual timeline in my mind, remembering things that they've said in previous appointments and kind of like, building all this continually. A blueprint. Your rain man in it. Yeah. Just coming down the escalator of life. I mean, I do take a few notes. Sure. But like most of it, I can recall. Yeah. And yeah, it can be mentally taxing. Yeah. But again, I feel like I'm kind of hardwired for that. So cerebral. But we talked about this too, men are very compartmentalized in the way that they think. Yeah. So I can imagine that in what you do, you grab the data, you store the data, you place the data, you don't think about it, and then you come back and you recall the data. To some degree, although I do find myself thinking about my clients in between appointments when something will kind of spark some recall. Yeah. Because I'm constantly learning too. So part of that cerebral thing is I'm taking in information, refining my skill set, et cetera. And I'm like, oh, this would be really helpful for so-and-so. And so with that, it's not always compartmentalized, but I think another thing that, not just guys, but maybe in general guys can be very linear in their thinking. Sure, sure, sure. And so that whole timeline concept for me works really well. I like to put things in order. Right. Because it helps kind of build the story so I can understand like, here's what's going on here, but I see this, this, and why, and here. Yeah. Like all this data. Yeah. So it's kind of, yeah. You're in chum on things. How my brain works. Yeah. And this is how my brain works. Right. Because you're talking about men being linear, and I just had this funny video pop up in my head, and I don't know why I can't stop laughing. Oh, we gotta hear it now. Oh, I need to know. That's right, that's right. It's a thing, man. Wife walks in the door, oh, I've had such a stressful day. Husband, have you seen my wiener? Yes, that's such a funny meme. The whole thing just popped into my head. Yeah, that's such a funny meme. Oh my gosh. That is such a funny meme. That might be a little relatable, too. That's maybe in the goofy category. Oh my gosh, man. Teddy bear, does that fit in the teddy bear category? It fits somewhere. I'm sorry, I was like, I had to say something, I had to say something because I didn't want him to think I was laughing at what he was saying, but I'm like, oh, I gotta say it. No, I'm glad you did. Oh my gosh. That is hilarious. It's so funny, too. That's also very relatable. I am still just an adolescent boy. Oh yeah, same here. I mean, everybody's wife knows what their husbands are saying. One track mind. There's a reason she won't unload the dishwasher in front of me, or walk upstairs in front of me. Sup, mama? Yep. You from out of town? You come here often? Yep. Yeah. Oh, I mean, it may be multiple times a day that I say something stupid like that. Oh yeah. Is it stupid? Something hilarious, you mean? Yeah. Hilarious, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Okay, Mindy, what about you? How does that, how did the words you chose find themselves as part of your day? You know, because I do have to organize everything because I'm a whack-a-mole person, right? I have to hit everything. I have to keep it semi-organized. But my favorite part of my days are whenever I get to meet with somebody in the middle of the day. And then we can be goofy, and we laugh, and we're stupid, and we, I don't know, talk about shipping my pants. I just ship my pants, you know? We talk about stuff like that all the time. So it's a lot of laughter in our home. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would just say that's kind of just part of our normal. Yeah. Yeah, I think we do, like together, we love to get to know people and just tell stories and enjoy those conversations. That's your popsicle. He's eating popsicles? He's eating all the popsicles, huh? Oh, I love popsicles. He's eating popsicles. I love those popsicles. Those are Johnny Pops. Johnny Pops are the bomb. I love it. No, that makes total sense, and I think truthfully, you know, I see that. I see that from both sides. Like what you're talking about. Being able to have those conversations with people, know people better, and that's always kind of fun. As exactly what we're doing right now. But we like to have fun. We like to be goofy. Yeah. We love to laugh. But we also love to learn. Yeah, I think that's, yeah. Always learning. Yeah. Oh, you always should be learning. Like lifelong learners. I think that's just been one of our values. I think that's why I started doing my last. That is an important thing. That keeps people like us out of trouble. Certainly. Learning. And it's not just about me. I don't just learn about me. I like learning about everything. Also can get you into new kinds of trouble. It can. Oh yeah. Those are called rabbit holes. And the trouble I get into now is shut the phone off. Sorry, I'm reading about George Washington right now. I know. History becomes so much more interesting the older you get. Yeah. I didn't appreciate it in my youth. All the time I go, did you know? Yeah, oh my gosh, I do that all the time too. I just learned this. Guess what I just read. Yeah. I'll never believe this. All the time, yeah. Did you see that article? As if she was on the same random article that I clicked on through 12 different links. Yeah. They found 12 jars of cherries in Mount Vernon. Who would have thought? And they were being used for fermentation to make cherry brandy. This is a real story though. I believe it. They just found it in the floorboards of one of his barns of George Washington's barns. Oh yeah. Cherries that are rotten now, but they're from his time period. It sure reminds me of the whole James and the Giant Peach thing. Yeah. Where it very likely could have been James and Giant Cherry. Could have been. Could have been. Wild story. Almost there. I'll tell you what, I'm the master at spinning us off different. We're just part of it, man. Yeah. It's kind of fun rebels. I'm a master at bringing us back. That's true. Yeah, here we go. So. So. Next question. This is the fun part. Because nothing else has been fun about this episode. I think as we've evolved a little more, it's not even that we have lightning round questions anymore. It's that we just ask about, like we ask a bunch of questions. Do you hear the southern accent there? I ask the vile. Sorry. Sorry. That one's my bad. Tuck that back in. Yeah, sorry. Have a little bit of shock. I'm from Louisiana. Yeah. I like to find myself a nice sarsaparilla. Oh boy. It's like I got molasses stuck to the roof of my mouth. Pick my. It's not believable. Pick my git fiddle. Dialect is bullshit. It is. I am terrible at the voice. This is why I would never be an actor because I suck at it. Every Friday night I play spoons on my knee. Yeah, I see. I couldn't even do that. I'd just be out back like, yeah. Put me back in Oklahoma, which is where I spent my childhood. Within two days, I will have picked up that old southern Oklahoma drawl. Yeah. It comes back like. There's a few words you say. Yeah. Really? You're in there. I do that with the Michigan thing. I go back to Michigan and the next thing you know, I'm like, you know what I mean there, eh? Yeah. Yeah, you know. Yeah. Get rowdy. Yeah. Oh, did you hear him? He said, sorry. Sorry. But yes, it's become more of just a big question asking segment, which I think I like better than the lightning round anyway. So I'm good with it. And I think it draws more information out of people. So this one I really love. If. A movie was written about your life, what would the movie be called and who would play you both as the main characters? My first thought was Dumb and Dumber. Speak for yourself. Great movie. I mean, you know, classic. Yeah. It's already taken though. There'd probably be some copyright issues. Probably. Might have to come up with something better. Did it come up with a novel title? That's a tough one. It's a tough one. If I was my youth, I would have said Ferris Bueller's Day Off. And Matthew Broderick would have played me because I looked a lot like him when I was a teenager. So your name would have been Ferris Bueller and you would have taken a day off. Yeah, and I would have stolen a car. Yes. He tried. And gotten into all kinds of trouble, but not gotten caught because that's exactly what I did. That's fair. For several years. Stole cars? In trouble. Theoretically, well, I guess I did get arrested. You didn't mean to. You weren't stealing cars. You were just breaking them. He accidentally stole it. I drove a stolen car. Oh, that's a two. A Dodge Daytona. It was stolen off of a car lot. Brand new. And it was just sitting there with the keys in it. It was open. He didn't steal it. I didn't steal it. Some friends of mine stole it. And then I drove it like it was stolen. So back to my dumb and dumber comment. No judgment. No judgment here. No, none at all. I did have my fake ID on me though. So if I would have gotten pulled over, I'm sure it would have been fine. It would have been Matthew Broderick driving that car. The cooler full of stolen beer from my place of employment. It feels like the stolen beer is a less than crime. Yeah. They're not worried about the beer. Go ahead, kid, finish the beer, but we're going to have to haul you in for the car. Is that three, two back there? What's going on? It certainly was three, two. That's why I had so much of it. Okay, no, I love it. It looks like you're gearing up. Fire away. Fire away. I am, we ready? Okay, I'm ready, conceived ready. This one, I love it when he says that. And I say it every time. I can't go every time. Oh, I love it when he says that. Okay, this one could be dangerous too though. What's the strangest thing you've Googled recently? Oh, he came back at it. I did. I like it, I like it. I know I've Googled weird things. I was just interested if the BTK killer was still alive, so I Googled that. He just randomly Googled that? Eight-year-old, he just turned 80. Yeah, that's true, yeah. Yeah, and he's still alive. No, is he really? Yeah, he's still alive. It's an interesting guy. Oh wow. In prison in Kansas. Yeah, yeah. I did know that, that was a Wichita thing, wasn't it? Yep, yeah, 10 people. That is, really? That's wild. It was something he killed. He tried more. Didn't succeed, he didn't succeed as well with the guys. When was he arrested? When did? Oh gosh, I don't. Did it say? I don't remember that. He didn't read that far. He didn't get that far into it. Yeah, I Googled that this week. Wow, yeah. He really went for it. Yeah, he's really curious. That's a weird thing to be curious about. I respect it. Yeah, I'm intrigued by the thoughts and weird stuff, weird people like that, that something breaks inside of them. You were just sitting there one day and you were like, I wonder what the BTK killer's doing nowadays. Yeah, it's not just historical things or serial killers, but I go on that tangent tour, I'm like, oh, I remember that story breaking when I was. I wanna know. Are they still around or? Yeah. Yeah, wow, no kidding. Dude's still alive. Still alive. That is wild. I would have never thunked it. Dang. Yeah. What have you Googled? Today, I Googled how to reconstitute peptides. That's the most recent. That's very exciting. I know. We need to get some dumber people on this show, man. I don't know. People with less large terminology, you know? So much EMDR just came out. Oh my God. How to make moonshine. I know it's lame, you asked. Yeah, there we go. Oh, geez. I wanted to learn about it. That's awesome. Because we just got some and I'm like, oh, how are we gonna do this? Not moonshine. No, not moonshine. Yeah, peptides. Peptides, yeah. But you take it up with the moonshine. I'm looking at weird stuff. I mean, I've not tried it. You're not. But I'm open. On what? Take the moonshine and the peptides together. Ooh, dangerous living. How do you wanna inject moonshine? Did it say anything with the Google? I don't know. I didn't cross-reference that. Might wanna give her a look-see, okay? Might wanna give her a look-see. Okay, okay. Okay, I like that. I like that a lot. You got another? Yeah, go ahead. All right. There's a couple I'm going between right now. Oh, I've just got a list in my brain hole. I see that. If you guys had a theme song that played every time you walked into a room, what would it be? Oh, man. There's lots to choose from. Oh, we have a ton of songs. We have a playlist. We procure a playlist. Sounds like teenage angst-y love-ish. Oh, I have procured playlists. I like the, I don't know who sings it, but the You're My Favorite Person. I like that tune. I don't know. You'll have to do it, Mr. Music Man. Gosh. Theme song, we have so many. Oh, yeah. Our number one song from just early dating is Summertime, but. I was thinking Sex Machine, but okay. Whatever. Let's get it on. Same thing, same thing. I guess they're gonna go home and put on some Al Green and Light a Candle. Yeah, we do have a playlist that's called Sex Machine, and it is a procured list of songs that are sexual in nature. Ah, and you guys just listen to it while you read? Mm-hmm. Yeah, we read. Yeah. No. On our way to church. Yeah. Fixing to go get some lord. And the best song on the playlist? The best and most intriguing song is the Hallelujah Chorus. Chorus. I'll let you chew on that one for a minute. Okay. I just snorted. Okay. And the key is to hit shuffle. See, that is an important concept. Hitting shuffle is a very important concept. Wow. Would you guys like us to share the playlist with ya? Ben Rector, by the way, is the artist. 100% I'm gonna need you to share the playlist, because that's hilarious. I'll send you the playlist. It's very funny. Yeah, I know. Please do. The idea is you just make out. And the Hallelujah Chorus. That's pretty cool. There you go. And the Hallelujah Chorus. Actually, let's give the audience the rules. It's there. You hit shuffle. Yep, yep. And you engage in- You just make out. Yeah, you engage in foreplay. And when the Hallelujah Chorus finally comes online, you go for it. This has been a very open and understanding podcast. This is awesome. I know. I love it. And we too apparently are an open book. I am not here to judge kids. No, heck no. I care if you are. But it is funny when you do finally hear Hundles, Messiah, Hallelujah Chorus. Humor is a really important part of our relationship. Yeah. It has to be. It has to be. Life's too short. Yes. It is. It is too short. Making up for some lost time, too. Yep. You know, it's just part of life, man. I'm not even gonna ask this question, because I already know. You just answered it. Well, now you need to ask it, so we can just know. How do you stay motivated to maintain momentum during tough periods in your career? It's humor. Oh yeah. I mean- Did you not hear the playlist? Yeah, it's, I know. I'm like, this is the one I wanted to ask, and I'm like, this is dumb. I'm not asking this. No, that one's out. That one's out. Humor, and I think we've just developed a lot of resiliency. Yeah. Through a lot of trials and tribulations. Yep. That's a thing, and I think that that is, like I said, I appreciate good humor. Yes. So, I likes it. I likes it a lot. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. You're gonna play that. I do have- Go for it. Another one. Fire away. Because I really want to answer this myself, and the ones I want to answer myself are usually pretty good, and this is totally nothing serious, but what's the weirdest food combination you secretly love? Yeah, yeah. That's a good one. I like, I mean, everybody does this, but the chips, like when you want something salty with something sweet, I like to combine that. That's not necessarily abnormal. Yeah, that's not that abnormal. So, like, you eat chips with, like, chocolate bars. That'd be good. I'm not, like I said, I'm not here to judge. A good, the right kind of chip, you know, like a- Yeah, like a crunchy chip. I don't know why that's so funny. It's the way you delivered it. Yeah. Like chips with chocolate bars. I don't know what to tell you. What you see is what you get, kids, okay? That's just part of it. You're just gonna have to deal with that. I grew up on peanut butter and jellies. Yep. And so- In your adolescent years, you went on to tacos with brains in them. Yeah, that was my early, late 20s, early 30s. Yeah, I think we're married. Same thing. Yeah, that's kind of true. Yep. My frontal cortex was a little late on the phone. Pretty accurate. Really accurate. But I like to augment the peanut butter and jelly with a variety of different things. Yeah. Sorry, are you like doing like a four flex situation? No, I'll go all in. Hitting it with a pickle? So peanut butter has to go all the way to the edge. Yes. That's how I am. And the jelly to the edge. Are you keeping the crust on the bread? Yes, but I eat the crust, all of the crust first, like in a circle. Because everybody knows that. Crust the sandwich, and there's a healthy dose of peanut butter and jelly. It doesn't matter if it's peanut butter and jelly, any sandwich you eat. Any sandwich I do that, yeah. Or on the edge. And whatever the condiment is, it's going to bed. Because the middle's the best. Precisely. Trying to get super fancy. That's how my wife taught me to eat pie, like at Thanksgiving. Eat the crust first. Yeah, because it's garbage. But I love the crust on the pie. I love the crust, too. If it's like a real crust. It's gotta be real. Meanwhile, he's over here eating almond butter and mint jelly sandwiches. I would do that probably once. Mint jelly. But I do like spicy peanut butter and jelly. Oh yeah, cool. Different variations. Jalapeno jelly. Never tried that. Habaneros. I need to. Yeah. Interesting. Little hot sauce in there sometimes. Little red pepper. Well, maybe some bacon. Man, yours are so good. I'm gonna tell you, Sean's like secret, like one of the best things that he does, he can look in our cupboard and go, I can put this in this and this in a pot and it'll taste like that. He knows exactly, your wife? Yes. Yeah, it's some like special. I'm like, how do you do this? It's a skill. It's simple. No, it's not. No, it's not. And it's like, yeah, like, oh, I can tell how it's gonna taste or deconstruct when you're at a restaurant. She does that. And then make it better, probably at home. And that's Sean. So I don't care what I eat. Sean makes it. I'm just good. I don't really, I don't eat the crust. I can read a recipe and know what it's gonna taste like. Close it, never look at it again. Yeah. That's a skill. You guys need to go, you need to have a conversation. We'll be eating some, she goes, oh my God, the tarragon with this. Right. What? The what? Is that what I used to smoke? Tarragon? Yeah, really. I hope not. Did you roll that up? The wheels are a turn in. The wheels are a turn in. If this isn't a testament to the fact that I just move around the whole show. The video is great, is great. Do you guys want to hear something that I eat that I absolutely love? That I will make them all throw up over? Garlic bread with peanut butter. Okay. I feel like there's weird things out there. I could do that, because I love peanut butter. Oh my gosh, and that is not my idea. That is my Marine Corps brother, who eats his garlic bread. Love you, Brandon. With peanut butter. I love it. I love that. So just like the crunchy. Yep, he won't put a spaghetti on it, but it's warm garlic bread. I put peanut butter on it. And I did not want to try it, and then he made me try it, and I was like, that is a revelation. I like to get like a snow cone. Should we stop by the store on the way home? It is good. I like to make like snow cones, but the snow has to be shavings from an ice rink that's been previously used for hockey. I just don't have any weird food combinations, so I had to come up with something stupid for you guys. But Cindy Crosby had to do the hockey stop, and I needed those shavings. And the sweat and the snow. And there's just a healthy dosing of fist fight. Oh yeah, I smell the testosterone. I don't have like a weird food combo I eat. Actually, that's not true. A weird food combo I eat is, my wife thinks it's the grossest thing in the world, and I happened to stumble across it when I was a kid, a cinnamon pretzel with the cheese dip, the nacho cheese. Ooh. Okay. It was totally a whoopsie, because I was eating one, and I think it was my dad. That might hit okay. Whoever I was with, I dropped it, it ended up in the cheese, and I was like, I'm not gonna not eat the pretzel. And then I was like, okay. Oh dude. I need this forever and eternity. So my grandpa was a chili cook-off champion, and he would make- He used cinnamon pretzels in his chili. Great call. Close. Well, he put a little cinnamon in the chili, and no beans, but he would make a pot of cowboy beans separately, so you could construct the perfect chili meat with your beans, and then all of the accoutrement of anything else, onions, tomatoes, jalapenos, cheese, et cetera. Orange soda. And it had to be orange crush, not sunkissed. Okay. And he made it spicy. I remember the first time I had it, this is my adoptive family, my adoptive grandpa. And he made this chili, and I had never really eaten anything that spicy up to this point. And I just remember having a revelation of how this is outstanding. And the orange crush soda with the carbonation doesn't really cool the fire, but the orange does, but the carbonation like- Highly spicy. And my eyelids were sweating. I was like, I'm hooked. I'm hooked. He also would take Wheatsworth crackers. I don't know if they make those anymore. It was like a wheat cracker, a real hearty cracker, and homemade hot chocolate, and he would dunk these Wheatsworth crackers in it and eat them. Oh, man. And I was just like, it's just a little piece of memory of going to visit him and my grandma in Coffeyville, and she would make homemade cobblers and things, but Wheatsworth crackers and hot chocolate or his chili, I always try to replicate his chili. It's never as good. My wife makes chili with peanut butter and cocoa. I've never done the peanut butter, but the cocoa- Rich, very rich. It's meaty. That's awesome. It's good. I've thrown in dark chocolate, but not cocoa, so I'll have to try the cocoa. Yep, unsweetened cocoa, and just loaded with some peanut butter. I know it's in there, but people are like, there's some unique flavor, and I'm like, cinnamon, you're right. There is a unique flavor in there. It's called love. Little bit of brown sugar in the chili. Stir it with your finger, it's love. Brown sugar. I'll use honey when I'm caramelizing the onions. Yeah, oh yeah. So it's just a different little sweet, but good addition to it. It's the palette. Gosh, man, I'm hungry. Now I'm getting hungry. Yeah, it's making me hungry. That's great. The wheels have turned quite a bit in my brain hole since starting this conversation. WD-40? Yeah, yep. So, if you were a kitchen utensil, which would you be? Knife. And why? I'll cut you. Yeah. I planted a knife on a goose once. Gator don't play. Yeah, Gator don't play that. Yeah, I'd definitely be a knife. Because it's the most holistic item in the. Yeah, I can. Utilitarian. I can cut anything up, dispatch it accordingly. I can even. Chef's knife. Use it to move food around in the pan or on the fire. Like Michael Myers style or like a. No more OJ. Oh, I don't like to wear gloves. Which is apparently a crazy hot topic out in the food world, which really just means a bunch of keyboard warriors get out there and they're like, why aren't they wearing gloves? Well, because. Sanitation. Yeah, exactly. And I'm not going to pretend like I know. Just seems silly. Yeah, I don't like to. I will. Like when I did the catering stuff, I would wear gloves all the time. Sure. But when I'm cooking at home, I'm not wearing gloves. Yeah. Part of that love is on my hands. I'm touching that food. That's right. You want to taste the leather from the couch? That's how you know it's real. So yeah, I would be a knife. I like it. What about you, Mandy? I would be a spatula because I like to. You could smack him? Yeah. No, because I could scrape every little bit. Oh, rubber spatula. Yeah. Yeah, rubber spatula. Heck yeah. So a fun fact, I just did it, but I didn't do it for the reason I usually do. Whenever somebody does something that's goofy and or screws something up and it's a funny moment, I like to call them by slightly the wrong name. Yeah. So with Mandy, I call her Mandy. Yeah. I get it all the time. There's a girl I used to work with. Her name was Laurel and I would just always call her Lauren. Things like that. I get the Mandy. Mandy. That's when his Southern accent comes out the best. Yeah. It's not the first time we've heard that. Other people have done that to you as well. I like it best with Nick though. That's true. He does it the best. I do, it's because I slide it in. Yeah, I picked up on that. I was like. Pretty normal. I'm okay. Buddy, you've known her for years. A long time. Yeah. A long time. I still don't know my name still. Well, and then I split a second. And I was like, shit, that ain't her name wrong. Yes, you have. You've been calling her the wrong name the whole time. He probably does that too. Not just for my benefit, but other people. Got another one? He's got gas. I'm not sure you're ready for this. I am not sure you're ready for this moment. If you wore around a warning label, what would it say? You go first. Oh, I'm not going first. I gotta think on that. If I were a warning label, what would it say? If you had to wear a warning label, what would it say? You're definitely going first, because I've got to think. You want the funny one? I want whatever you want. Whatever. I mean, you're a funny dude, so you gotta go funny. Because I got two. And it probably depends on the mood. Okay, we need two. Fair, fair. If I'm not in a... Can I say what I think yours would be? Yeah, I would love that. F-A-F-O. Yeah, it would just be F-A-F-O. Yes. Would be probably for decades, I could have worn that one around. Yeah, you probably still could. Yeah. For sure, but I'm trying to soften those edges. But now there's a different version, so it can mean the same thing, but objects are larger than they may appear. Yes. It's not meant to be sexual, but it could be. Oh, really? But it's also like, don't underestimate me based upon what you think you see. I like it. Just walk in rooms and you're like, is this funny? Is this funny? And it could be like, you don't know me. Like I'm funny, I'm a teddy bear, I don't always show that side. I mean, I have always been perceived as being a little intense, maybe baseline, just constant anger in my 20s and 30s. You're a pretty stoic person though, I would say, for the most part. Like if you just see you. That's where I would have put it more stoic. Yeah, yeah. That's me toning down, like learning to like this furrowed brow thing, which kind of conveyed the constant F-A-F-O. I learned to turn off or be more self-aware. It wasn't the eye twitch. Yeah, it was like, I gotta get rid of the RDF. If you know what I mean. So that's where the stoicism. Resting dad face. Sure, I'm gonna go with that one. That's the PG version. But being more stoic is like more palatable than appearing to be angry. But I think it also hides the teddy bear or the goofiness. So did you come up with yours? What's your warning label? I don't know if I have a really good catch phrase for my warning label, but basically I would adopt. She says ka-chow. Oh God. I did in college take a class called model mugging because a friend of mine had been like, there was some level of trauma for her and the whole class was women in college and they had all had some level of trauma. I hadn't. I'm like, all right, I'll come kick this knot out of somebody. So this man would put on all this stuff and then we learned how to. Yeah, they'd beat the crap out of them. I watched it. That's rad. So I gotta be all in. If I'm gonna try to kiss her on the neck, which gives her chills and she loves it, but she won't admit it and I know I'm gonna get hit. I know I'm gonna get hit. And I have that image in my mind, like, yeah, I'm doing it anyway. I'm going in, I can take a punch. I might punch him. Yeah, that's true. Maybe I should just say warning, I'll punch you if you. Oh, I like it. That might be the best. Do not approach and punch on sight. I'll kick you in the. Well. Yeah, I can, that's true. She's tough. I respect it. I'll throw a punch, yeah. You know, sometimes a good throw punch is what you risk. It's illegal. It's a legal move. It's super entertaining to watch. It is. It really is. And if it's done right, it can change your voice forever. Yes. Oh, yeah. Not yours. Oh, yours. Yeah, part of her story. I'm guessing there might be a story. Is there ever a story? No, not at all. No, never. There's a story. Never. There's a series. Okay. There is a former Marine who's not chewing his food normally anymore. I warned him. We were grappling. He kept going below the belt. Oh, yeah. Follow the rules. He was meant to go to a hospital. And he had surgery. Oops. Oh crap. Oh crap. Yep. That's all I'll say. Do you have another question before we hit him with the heat? No, I'm ready to rock and roll. What's the heat? You guys are in trouble. Oh, she's gonna be so excited. Your wife's gonna love that one. That was for you. Love you, babe. He loves you. I do. I see it in his eyes. I love my wife more than anybody could ever explain in words. You guys know that. I do know that. That's a fact. You see me with my wife multiple times. Yeah. If you were a mythological creature, what would you be and what sound would you make? And you have to make the sound. You do have to make the sound. A centaur. Oh. That's crap. She's using my words. You're making that up. That's BS. She's using my words. Knock it off, knock it off, knock it off. I'm using my voice. Done. A centaur. Yeah, see, that's garbage. She knows my answer to this question is what happened. I have no idea. If you had to pick it not a centaur, what would it be? If you had to be actually original. Yeah. You'd have to steal all my humor. The eyes are hilarious. I love it. The stare down. The stare down. Come on. If it was actually real. You're evading the question. Yes. Stop being a question dodger. I thought a lot about it. I thought a centaur would have been really the best. Nope. Actually, that's genius. You better quit it. You better quit it with stealing my answers. Doesn't have to be scary. It doesn't have to be scary. It can be, I guess, if you really want it to be, but it doesn't have to be. A little unicorn. She is kind of a unicorn if you get the reference. Oh, have you ever seen that where the hot chick and the crazy chick. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you're getting this, Zinranger, got yourself a freaking unicorn. That's crazy. So we can study it. That's a unicorn. That's a unicorn. There you go. I have not turned her in for studying because I'm still studying it. Good job. Yeah, yeah, I'm still learning. Not sharing. That guy can screw off. I'm thinking way too long. Go first, let me come back. Probably some sort of dragon. Oh, everybody's going with dragon. What would the dragon sound like? Hey, he can say dragon, they've already said it, and I can't say centaur. It's because they all sound different. Yeah, we've had some crazy sounds. Yeah. Yeah, mine would be, well. You got to do it. Oh. That's the best sound though. That's the best one. Yeah. That's the best one by far. Is it like pre-fire breathing kind of thing? Pre-fire, fire. Kind of a read the sign. F-A-F-O. Yeah, exactly. Ready for it. I don't want to be destructive, but you know. Was it Ty who was like, mine would go like pew, pew, pew? Yeah, he'd be like, I'm going to have the power. What is that? Yeah, exactly. No judgment, I'm just, yeah. He wanted it to be different. Yeah, okay. I don't want it to be like, you know, raw. I want it to go pew, pew, pew. Exactly, exactly. Well, I could be a dragon and just go. Yeah, that'd be super lame of you. Now you can't pick a dragon because you made fun of the dragoness. I don't know what I would be. What's your favorite? I don't know. You don't have any mythological creature, Frayvich? Not like an orc or an elf. Maybe a hobbit. I think she'd be more like a fairy. I mean, Buddy the Elf is my favorite elf. Yeah, very lovely. Buddy the Elf is your favorite color. Yeah, exactly. Ooh, very purple-y. Ooh. I like singing, singing is my favorite. What's your favorite color? I'm in a store and I'm singing. That would be my favorite. That would be my favorite. It's not really mythological, but something like that. Yeah, it's an elf. Sure, that's fair. I want to be an elf. Yeah, it's fair. Christmas elf. Well, guys, that was my last big thing. But with that, I say thank you for hanging out with us. Yeah, thank you so much. It's been super fun. Thanks for inviting us. Yeah, it's been really fun. It's been a lot of fun. We've been talking about it a long time. I'm glad we got to finally do it. It's a lot of fun. It doesn't have to be a big deal. It can be laid back like this and we can always have fun with it. Enjoy learning about each other more. All the cool things that come out of it. And like we said in multiple episodes, it's important to us to potentially help somebody with what we talk about. Yeah. And I think it just helps bring to light, just be a person, man. Whatever that may look like, just be human. Power in numbers. There's a lot of peace in that. There's already too much negativity out there. We might as well be a bright spark, right? Yep. I think people want genuinely they want to be known right but things prevent them from maybe doing that Yeah, for a variety of reasons. Yeah We appreciate that thank you that we hope to do that more yeah, so with that Definitely appreciate you guys talking a little bit about what you do. Thanks for deep diving deep diving. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was great Yeah, hopefully wasn't too heavy. Oh my gosh. Are you kidding me? I'm now burdened with your story I'm so burdened. Yeah No, it's great. No, it was really good. The reality is the stuff like that that we don't get to talk about enough I've said this before it's not that we don't necessarily get to or that we don't have an outlet to it's that we just kind Of don't do it, right? So yeah, I mean, it's just it's just cool to finally get to talk Openly about things that are real in our lives. Yep that people don't do that. No, yeah They don't so they don't well, this is refreshing. Yeah, you guys. Yeah Thank you guys for coming and hanging out with us and we will make sure To you to holler out any of your business stuff if you want. So make sure to throw that out there What is your what is your business called and how do people find it? You can find New Leaf Counseling On Google, but you can also just go to the website which is newly counseling dot o RG Sweet Marriage collective so yeah, you can go to Sean and Mindy calm and kind of see some of the things that we're doing there which we're We're kind of branching out and doing that's awesome. That's cool For the low price of $49.99 a month this course can be yours You act now Six months, please answer my questions from my automated chat bot for the first week and then are you still with me? Are you still yeah? Yeah, exactly Send me a direct message that says trade No, that's awesome guys, that's awesome So definitely go check out go check out the counseling site. Check it out. See what we got So you need if you need help Sean's your guy Mindy can help you get there So make sure to keep on keeping on with it. This is definitely awesome Be sure to check us out at the underscore unspoken underscore pop Instagram and let us know if there any lightning round questions you want to hear and anybody else that you want to see come On the show until next time Bye. Bye