Understanding Your Worth as an Entrepreneur and Mom

Renee Rubens, founder of Symphony of Leaves Tea Company, discusses her journey from corporate America to entrepreneurship, the challenges of balancing work and motherhood, and the importance of setting boundaries with host Kaila Sachse in this episode of the Bringing Up Business podcast.

Renee also shares insights on the shift to remote work, ethical sourcing in the tea industry, and valuable advice for aspiring entrepreneurs. 

Kaila and Renee’s conversation emphasizes the significance of self-care, understanding one's worth, and the evolving landscape of work-life balance.

More About Renee Rubens
Throughout her distinguished career in global and national media sales, Renee Rubens cultivated a tradition of presenting finely crafted teas and bespoke blends as gifts for clients during holidays and special occasions. This practice ultimately inspired the vision for a dedicated venture. Guided by a commitment to responsible sourcing, ethical harvesting, and equitable trade practices, she established Symphony of Leaves Tea Co. as a small business during the global COVID-19 pandemic.

symphonyofleavestea.com

Free small business mentorship & resources: score.org

More information on "The Four Quadrants" concept as originally published by Stephen Covey in his book, "The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People" (1989): https://purdue.edu/asc/handouts_pdf/Coveys%204%20Quadrants.pdf

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Transcript

Kaila Sachse (00:02.371)
Welcome to the Bringing Up Business podcast where we talk about business and parenting. I'm your host, Kayla Sashay. I am raising a toddler and I also run a design and marketing agency called Yumari Digital. I'm excited to chat with today's guest, Renee Rubens. She is the founder and tea event experience producer of Symphony of Leaves Tea Company.

Renee Rubens (00:22.806)
Good to see you.

Kaila Sachse (00:27.813)
Throughout her distinguished career in global and national media sales, she cultivated a tradition of presenting finely crafted teas and bespoke teas as gifts for clients during holidays and special occasions. This practice ultimately inspired the vision for a dedicated venture. Guided by a commitment to responsible sourcing, ethical harvesting, and equitable trade practices, she established Symphony of Leaves Tea Co.

Renee Rubens (00:39.149)
Okay.

Kaila Sachse (00:57.783)
as a small business during the height of COVID. Symphony of Leaves not only survived the pandemic, it has thrived and we'll dig into what Renee has been doing to attribute to that success. Renee, I'm so excited to have you here on the show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Renee Rubens (01:14.689)
Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm looking forward to just kind of talking about my experiences and working in corporate America and then pivoting to being a small business owner and what it was like parenting during being in corporate America too.

Kaila Sachse (01:32.85)
my goodness, tell us all about that. Let's start with your journey in corporate America when you had your kids. What was that like?

Renee Rubens (01:42.828)
Yeah, so I was young when I had my oldest daughter. I was 22, right? So just finished school and had my daughter. So we kind of, and I always joke that we grew up together, right? Because there are things that at 22, you kind of know some stuff, but there are a lot of things that you just kind of don't really know. But it worked out well. So she's a great kid. But I wasn't.

you know, probably wasn't until I was in my mid to late twenties that I was really sure on the path of what my career was going to look like. So I was in media sales and it was from the start and I always say this to people, if you know, it was really a fun job, right? Being in media sales was just really interesting. And especially because I had, you know, after a few years of doing it, really realized that I wanted to focus on

the B2B space. So I got to work with a lot of really smart people and delve into what their businesses were like, where their pain points were, and be able to use a lot of my creativity as well as the resources of the publishing company that I worked for to be able to help companies have solutions that were helping them with close whatever communications gaps that were there. you know, by way of having to work at a job,

I was always really blessed to have a really cool job. And so, and I think though, because now I have three daughters, right. I think that the way that I learned to work has really been instrumental in how they are now professionals. you know, my oldest daughter, like I said, I was young, so she's, she actually just turned 40 recently. but.

So in her career is doing really well. And my next daughter is 31 and 26. And they also have really good work ethic and very focused on, I think they do a better job than we do when we were younger, right? They're really good at life work balance. They totally embrace that thinking, right? It's a different generation than when I was younger. My generation was like, you just work, work, work, work, work, and you keep working, right? And you always had to get it done. And there was,

Renee Rubens (04:09.091)
recognition and reward for putting in more hours. Whereas their generation is like, you know, I've got a life and they have clear boundaries that they're not afraid to advocate for. So that was different.

Kaila Sachse (04:12.886)
Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (04:23.637)
Yeah. Do you think for you, if you could go back in time and reinstate any boundaries to help you better contain your work life versus your personal life, raising your girls, what boundaries would you have instilled?

Renee Rubens (04:38.642)
Yeah, I would have definitely put some more boundaries about around how long, how many hours you put in at work, right? What we've learned is the work is always going to be there, right? And your children are not going to be young forever, right? So you do get the opportunity. I mean, can think about, unfortunately, times, especially because I traveled a lot, that I missed a lot of events, right? would...

sometimes be rushing from an airport to try to get home in time and I'd be in the back of a school room where they were having an event, but I would just be making it by the skin of my teeth, right? And then sometimes you have a flight delay and you don't get there. I had wonderful support, my parents were amazing. I was divorced after a while. I did have a nanny, so she was tremendously helpful.

So I'm very thankful that I had a really great support network. But if I could do anything over, it would probably be to be able to say, you know, no, I can't, I can't make this trip or I need to be home by a certain hour. So that's it.

Kaila Sachse (05:48.727)
Yeah, my goodness. And you know, it can be so hard to say no to potential opportunities, especially when you're climbing the career ladder and you're trying to hunt the next big goalpost. Or if you're self-employed and you're looking for the next client, you want to say yes to everything, right? And it's really hard to not sink into a mindset of scarcity.

Renee Rubens (05:53.541)
Thank

Renee Rubens (06:18.841)
Right, right, I'm so glad you said that because I think that's what it is, right? There's some fears that you have that you might miss out on something, but the reality is there will be another opportunity. Another opportunity will come along. you know, especially because we're in sales, the way I think that you need to look at the relationships that you have with your clients is that this is a partnership. They recognize that you're human. They have lives also.

Kaila Sachse (06:20.034)
Huh.

Renee Rubens (06:46.916)
And you just need to be candid and say, I can make this work because they know how important they are to you. But you also have to just be honest and say, but I can't do this time, right? I've got to do, you know, I've got to be back home or I've got to be in another city or whatever I need to do. But I do think that it's okay for you to say, this doesn't work for me or this scenario, this situation doesn't work.

the way I needed to work. And it doesn't mean that your work output or your work product will be diminished. It just means that you can't be there, right? Because again, think about this is, you know, 35 years ago, we didn't have the kind of technology we have now, right? So you didn't have the option of getting on a Zoom. There was no Zoom, right? There was an in-person experience and that's, and don't get, please, let me make you all clear, because in-person experiences,

really help cultivate the relationships and they make the relationships stronger, I believe. But, sometimes you do have to be able to put some boundaries on it that say, you can trust me that I'm going to deliver what needs to be delivered, but at this time I need to be able to not be present and maybe figure out another way to communicate.

Kaila Sachse (08:07.723)
Yeah, that absolutely resonates. Coming from a time where, yes, everything was in person or if not in person over the phone where you couldn't have that face to face, the technology has shifted, right? Now we can hop on Zoom. We can check our emails 24 seven. We can text whenever, Although I don't recommend texting clients unless you have that kind of relationship.

Renee Rubens (08:19.073)
Right.

Renee Rubens (08:32.694)
You probably shouldn't text your client. And you also though, you also need to be mindful that you should not be texting people, whatever. One of the things I learned, especially when I was doing a lot of work in Europe, the French and the Spanish are serious about their downtime. And you are not, it is definitely frowned upon if you're sending messages at eight.

nine, 10 o'clock in the evening, that is not a win. You're not looked upon as somebody who is in the States that may be seen as you're really dedicated, you're going the extra mile, you're really doing your job. There they see it as an intrusion, right? You are intruding upon their time. And when I started doing that work, I realized, right, and this is probably one of the most valuable lessons I've learned in work.

Kaila Sachse (09:14.715)
interesting

Renee Rubens (09:26.977)
Which I've been able to take to life you have to look at Your lens look at other people through their lens not only your own lens, right? So like I said in this country, it is well recognized It's well received if you're sending out mason messages because it looks like you're working 60 70 80 hours a week and people applaud you for that, right? That's not that you know when you look at when you're someplace else when you're in France or

Or in Spain or wherever right? They're not necessarily looking at you through the same lens that you're looking at this scenario They are looking at you definitely as if this needs to stop because it's not an emergency right at the end of day is advertising so it's never an emergency You're not performing surgery. It may be important. It may be important And ever once in a while, especially back in the days when we were doing print, you know, you had some deadlines but

Again, it was never going to be rocket science and you weren't saving a life, right? So, but part of that also comes with aging, right? You kind of, or maturing, I will say. And as you gain some more wisdom, you're like, okay, it's important. Here's how we frame it. And this is what it looks like. But you've got to, you definitely, think in professional settings and certainly in work, I learned.

more about looking at somebody else's, looking through somebody else's lens and kind of making decisions like that.

Kaila Sachse (11:01.938)
Yeah, you know, that all, that is all something that I have been learning and I'm so grateful to be starting to grasp, especially as a parent. I feel like that introduction into motherhood, because I was a freelancer for a long time and then I started my agency and right around the same time, that's when I found out I was pregnant. And so I was learning how to build up this agency at the same time as becoming a mother. It was really overwhelming.

got through it as we seem to do, right? As a parent, you just kind of figure it out. don't have... Yeah, just figure it out. And I noticed a huge shift in how I respected my time and how I treated my time. I started to realize that time is a finite resource. You don't just have all the time in the world. You don't get to just stay up whenever you want to stay up because now you have to think about sleep and how that affects...

Renee Rubens (11:32.35)
Good for you. Yep, you'll figure it out.

Renee Rubens (11:51.922)
Yes.

Kaila Sachse (12:00.883)
your mood and your energy levels the next day. You have to have very firm on-off boundaries so that you can spend time with your kids. And if you have a partner with your partner, you know, it seems to be a deeper topic than what you realized before becoming a parent.

Renee Rubens (12:05.885)
Absolutely, absolutely. think that there's certain things that you take for granted and then I think as you mature

you do not only realize but accept and navigate the space of there are only 24 hours a day and there's nothing that says you need to be fully engaged in work or fully engaged in anything for 16 of those hours. There's this time when you deserve to give yourself the grace and part of that grace, part of that time.

I believe in self care, right? But it took me a long time to get there, right? And you have to give yourself to your self care because if you don't, then when those other people who are really reliant upon you or when you want to be able to make a contribution, you may not be able to deliver the way you need to deliver simply because you have not really respected yourself enough to kind of appreciate that rest is a part of this journey, right? You cannot.

You cannot function without the proper amount of rest or the proper amount of downtime or the proper amount of time, just having fun, right? Or doing things that bring you joy. joy and rest are, joy and rest are absolutely essential parts of this journey that we're taking in life. And if you don't take it seriously, you know, the end results may not be always in your favor.

Kaila Sachse (13:56.67)
100%. I noticed that I was deeply affected by not taking care of myself in the early postpartum weeks and eventually months. It actually got to the point where I was breaking down mentally. I could barely get through each day. I soon realized that there was something actually wrong. I went to see a therapist, was diagnosed with postpartum depression, and

Renee Rubens (14:07.418)
All right.

Renee Rubens (14:25.272)
Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (14:26.116)
Self-care was pivotal for me. That was a major missing component that as soon as I started practicing that after my diagnosis, was able to... Not that I was able to... I mean, yeah, I mean, there was a self-empowerment there too, but I was able to see that the fog just kind of melts away. Once I started to bring the sunshine in on myself and say, hey, mama needs some care too. It's not all about baby.

Renee Rubens (14:35.639)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (14:47.544)
Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (14:56.303)
I have a life too.

Renee Rubens (14:57.161)
Right. Right, right. And you know that all of those things can happen, right? It can all happen, right? You can be focused on the work and then focused on your children and focused on, you know, whatever outside activities you are. And there's this constant churn, this constant running to do something next. And really, you know, now I can look back and say, well, was I effective? Right? Was I really delivering?

Kaila Sachse (15:21.543)
Hmm.

Renee Rubens (15:24.513)
what I needed to deliver because you're checking boxes and not necessarily having the experience. You may have an intention of accomplishment, but are you really looking at all of the different things to make sure that they're brought in so that you, because especially when you're in sales, you are part of a team, right? Are you delivering to your team?

Kaila Sachse (15:28.935)
Right.

Renee Rubens (15:54.976)
that what they're expecting, not just kind of the fluff or the end result. Did you hit the number? Yes. Maybe you hit the number, but did you deliver all the things and the support to other people along the journey? Right. And the same is true with, you know, your marriage or your children, right? Do, yes, maybe I made it to the event, but was I really the one who was there helping?

you know, one of them study their lines in preparation for an event. You know, you're there on the phone, right? You're calling, because again, there was no internet, no FaceTime then. You may be calling and say, okay, recite the lines, but even with that, you're still doing some other work and you're half listening. So I have really, at this point, I can honestly say if I could do anything differently, it's be more present and participatory.

Kaila Sachse (16:27.91)
Bye.

Renee Rubens (16:49.362)
in a way that allows you to fully immerse yourself in whatever else you're doing. Because the work is gonna be the work, it's gonna be there. nine times out of the can, 10, the company that you're working for, it's gonna be there, it's not gonna fall apart, right? Because we have these grandiose, I must be the one that does this work. Not really. A lot of people can do the work, right? Everybody can make a contribution here. so,

Kaila Sachse (16:56.422)
Right. Right.

Kaila Sachse (17:08.432)
Yeah!

Renee Rubens (17:16.182)
And again, it's not gonna fall apart if I don't deliver today, right? Or at least I need to communicate and plan and say, okay, here's realistically when the deliverable can be there, right? So, but I don't know if I could have done that 30 years ago. I can do it now, right? I can say it now, but 30 years ago, I would have been probably too afraid to do that.

Kaila Sachse (17:28.87)
Yeah, yeah.

Kaila Sachse (17:34.159)
Yeah. Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (17:41.147)
and how do you, so other than gaining experience, is there anything else that we can do to try to combat this fear, work through it? Is there anything we could do or do we just have to slog it out day after day and eventually figure it out?

Renee Rubens (17:58.225)
You know, it's funny, I watch and I listen to younger people work, right? And I think, because sometimes I think there's an extreme, the other side, and I'm not sure I feel comfortable with that either. I think that right now there are five generations in the work world, right? And I think that with those five generations, because there's still some, some boomers, technically I'm a boomer, right? So there's some boomers in X and Y, these millennials. And I think there's got to be

better communication. And this is a lot of this is going to be driven by the culture of an organization, right? Because you don't want the relationships to be combative. You don't want the boomers and the Xers to say, well, in my day, we did it this way, right? There's some value in that, Because we didn't have the technology that is available now. So a lot of it was we had to think it through to figure it out, right? We did not have

Kaila Sachse (18:47.035)
voice.

Kaila Sachse (18:55.685)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (18:58.202)
AI that was going to help us. We literally just had to have pencil and paper and figure out what the outcome could potentially be here, right? So we were building models based on our own thoughts. Now, some of those models were flawed, but we were doing it. Whereas younger people, I think, are very reliant on the technology. And think the technology is a significant contribution and a valuable tool to have access to. But I do also think that, you know,

Thinking about how you get from A to Z and what those steps in between are really important. And I think sometimes the technology kind of bypasses that and gives an answer or provides an answer and not necessarily understand the value of the process. do, I am a huge proponent of working remotely because I've worked remotely for a really long time before I started my business and while I worked in corporate America.

What I realized, but I didn't start working probably remotely until I was probably in my early 40s, right? What I do value about going into an office is not only the culture of an organization, the camaraderie that you build with your colleagues is really valuable. I listen to a lot of young people now and they say, no, I get my work done.

That's important, right? It's really important that you get your work done. But it doesn't really help define the culture of an organization. And we could sit here and really reflect on why that is the case. Maybe it's important to look at the historical context. But I think, you know, I talk to people now and I say, I personally think the best approach is a hybrid approach, right? Where people get the opportunity to interact with.

with people who may not have the same worldview, right? But it does give you, think, a richer experience to hear from somebody or to connect with somebody who may think something totally different from you, but they are bringing still something valuable in their abilities to think about and build trust and a relationship and deliverables, right? So I think working in person does that in ways that doesn't really happen.

Renee Rubens (21:26.574)
you know, when you're on a Zoom call. But I also think, do you really want to go in five days? Not necessarily. So I'm a supporter of a three in, two out kind of work situation, if you can do that.

Kaila Sachse (21:43.896)
Yeah, yeah, you know, I've noticed that there has been a huge cultural shift here in the States away from working in office in favor of the hybrid or fully remote way to work. And part of that is because it does help parents, right? Parents may not necessarily be able to afford as much childcare if they're in the office five days a week. It's really expensive. I mean, it's comparable to a mortgage or rent.

Renee Rubens (21:56.27)
Yeah.

Yeah Absolutely

Kaila Sachse (22:12.59)
So it's like, imagine paying double what you're paying just for your cost of living for somebody to also help you take care of your child. So, you know, going remote, that helps to mitigate that cost. Yeah, yeah.

Renee Rubens (22:28.949)
Absolutely. You know, it's really interesting. I was having this exchange recently with somebody on social media and the person's post was that she was opposed to people having to go into an office for a couple of reasons. One, her cost of clothing to wear and tear on her vehicle and time spent away from home because of her commute. Right. So that meant her expenses were going to go up. Now as a business owner,

My thoughts were, expenses didn't go down when you were at work remotely, so I didn't lower your salary. I don't know that that's a fair way to look at it. But I do think that, I don't know. Like I said, my children had, I had somebody who lived with us. I don't know if I could afford that these days because it's really big expense, right?

I am really empathetic to, especially now, work is not usually a luxury. Most situations require two incomes, And in requiring or needing those two incomes, you are working, but you're still trying to take care of your child who you're in the house until you're multiple things. So I think that kind of our living costs.

And just the cost of us operating ourselves has become so expensive that I don't know how tenable this is much longer like this. But we do also, part of working outside of the home, going into an office, like I said, you're building relationships.

you're also supporting like my small businesses like mine, right? Because we need the foot traffic. We need or we rely on the foot traffic as a part of the day to day. it's a challenge that I think, you know, as a society, we're going to have to spend some time figuring out what that path is and what is going to be a win for the majority. don't think that everybody's going to, nobody's going to want to go back to

Renee Rubens (24:50.131)
a five day work week, although, and we have to be mindful, There's a, especially right now, this question about will manufacturing be brought back to the United States? Well, you can't manufacture remotely, right? You can't do it, right? That's just not the way that works. You're going to physically have to go someplace, right? So we will have to address that. We'll have to address.

Kaila Sachse (25:09.09)
Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (25:12.536)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (25:18.268)
you know that lends itself to some some kinda class divisions so i think as we think about ourselves as society what is that going to look like for all of us

Kaila Sachse (25:26.466)
Yeah, yeah, ultimately what I've heard before when I was, I think I was pregnant when I heard this, it was this little clip about how if we design the world with parents and children in mind, it would be a much more accessible world for all. And that stuck with me. Every time I go somewhere and I experience something, gosh, I'm trying to think of an example here.

Renee Rubens (25:45.381)
Okay

Renee Rubens (25:52.074)
Okay.

Kaila Sachse (25:56.192)
Of course, I can't think of one right now, but it's, you you go out into the world and you think, okay, so maybe parking lots, let's just talk about parking lots for a second, right? How could a parking lot be improved to better maintain the safety of a parent with child, right? Maybe there's a different way we design the walkways or something. I don't know, I'm not a designer in that regard, but.

Renee Rubens (25:57.898)
Okay.

Renee Rubens (26:09.482)
Okay.

Kaila Sachse (26:23.154)
we go out into the world and we shift our lens and we say, okay, it's not just me on this planet walking around. There are other people too with other needs. How can we better design this world? I don't know. It was just like a fun little snippet that I heard.

Renee Rubens (26:37.609)
Yeah, no, no. And I think there's a lot of that goes on, especially in other countries, right? I've been to Spain a few times, and it is completely normal, completely normal to sit out on the patio at nine in the evening and children and families are out just enjoying life, right?

I've been, I remember telling somebody this story recently. I was in Paris once and...

It was during the middle of week, I was there working and I had my dinner and a glass of wine and I was waiting for the check. So 10 minutes go by, 10 whole minutes. And so I finally say to the owner, can I please have my check? And he says, well, where do you have to go?

And I said, what? Like, what are you talking about? Now I'm from New York. They are trying to turn those tables in New York really quickly. I felt like 10 minutes was way too long. And I was like, well, what do you mean, where do I have to go? He's like, you don't have anywhere to go. You're probably gonna go back to your hotel to work. And I said, I am. That is exactly what I'm going to do. And so he said, sit down, just have some more wine and relax, right? There are other places that design living.

in a very different way that we think about living, right? We think about, you know, when you think about the density of Paris, which is, you know, because I'm from New York, I appreciate dense cities. It's very walkable, right? So we think about how to live, especially in New York, without necessarily an automobile, right? And how much more functional mass transit and public transportation is because they, you know,

Renee Rubens (28:32.836)
New York needs to work on some of its public transportation because it fails in comparison to the rest of the world. But that is still the biggest one and the most efficient that we have in the US. So I do think that in terms of like our infrastructure and how we use the things that we use on a day-to-day basis, we've got some opportunities to rethink and reimagine how things are going to be best served for all of us, right? Because I do think about, yes, how do we service

how a family is going to use resources. I also think about, especially as I age, how does a senior citizen use the services, right? And how do younger people use their services? so it becomes much safer for us all to be invested in how we kind of live our lives, right? So you can tell, obviously, I'm a very city-oriented person, I believe.

I believe in cities, think that cities should be very functional for people regardless of where they are in life.

Kaila Sachse (29:40.819)
Yes, my goodness. I wish I could go back to that restaurant and bottle up that man's voice and keep that in my head and just be like, Kayla, where do you have to go?

Renee Rubens (29:53.525)
It was so funny, he was like, where do have to go? Now at the same time, again, I've been in Paris at two in the afternoon and they're looking at me like, okay, you may not be going to your hotel, but you are leaving here, okay? Because they want their downtime, that is their time. They're not gonna be sitting there working because you are sitting there using your laptop or doing whatever. I'm like, okay, it's time.

So they, it's interesting again going back to looking through somebody else's lens, right? You're looking through somebody else's lens and you have a different type of appreciation for how you want to live your life, right?

Kaila Sachse (30:35.76)
Yes, yes, my goodness. That helps me gain a deeper appreciation for younger millennials and Gen Zers who are actively telling society, hey, it's not all about work. There is a life out there that needs to be lived. And on the other side of the coin, we have our boomers who are teaching us the value of really digesting and learning a topic instead of just relying on AI to do it for us.

Renee Rubens (30:47.511)
Right.

Right.

You know it changes right and I think back to when my children were younger and like I said my career did well know was doing well with my career and we had a really big house right one of those McMansions and and at the time I assigned a lot of value to that right. When I tell you now if I could figure out how to live in a tiny house I would do it.

would do it, right? Because again, you know, you're working and so there is this connection, or at least there used to be this connection between how much you worked, what titles you have, what financial resources you had as a result of the work, and what your investment was in your home and your automobile and what have you, right? Whereas,

I look at young people now and there's less emphasis increasingly. I don't see them wanting, you know, 5,000 square foot McMansions, right? They're looking at the environment, right? They're looking at their carbon footprint. They're looking at things very differently. So that has been a shift for me as I, you know, as I think about my professional journey, it's not really.

Kaila Sachse (32:21.919)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (32:29.729)
what my income is that determines how big my house should be. My income is really for me to have other experiences with, right? Which is, even now with my tea company, right? I loved selling media, it was great, but it's really been a blessing to be able to have my tea company. And I think about...

the geopolitical nature of what it is like in regions that are growing tea. I would never have thought about that before, right? So now I'm thinking about like what impact, Our focus as a company is to source teas from growers who are growing responsibly and harvesting ethically, right? The tea consumption, and I'm assuming this is true probably of coffee, that's not a space that I'm in, but tea consumption is outpacing

Kaila Sachse (33:04.595)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (33:26.174)
the growth and part of the reason for that is because we've got climate change challenges, right? And so now I've got to look at climate challenges in a very different way than I did at one other time at other times. One of the things that I find when I'm talking with, you know, young buyers, they really like to know when I'm, you know, like if I can show them that there's, want to see the traceability of the tea, right? So I can say, well, this is a farmer that I worked with

in Bhutan and it's a women's cooperative. So I know the women are paying each other fairly because it's a cooperative. And then it's shipped from Bhutan to Connecticut, to me in Georgia. And so there's a full accountability of the journey. I don't know when I was younger if I would have ever thought about those things.

Kaila Sachse (34:18.483)
Do you think it's your market that opened that up for you or do you think it was a half half you're living in this society that's shifting away from just consumption consumption and more into, hey, let's get to know where our products are coming from and how they're affecting our environment.

Renee Rubens (34:38.078)
Yeah, I would love to believe that I could take the credit and say that I saw this coming. But the reality is maybe I saw some of it coming. Part of it, some of it is my personal journey, right? And just in talking, you know, I remember years ago talking to some of the producers and asking about organic teas where I learned a lot about some of the benefits of things that are organic and some of them that are not necessarily so beneficial. But I learned a lot more about some of the things that they

Kaila Sachse (34:43.046)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (35:07.729)
producers are doing as it relates to growing. I'm by no means a farmer or an authority on agriculture, but I learned a lot more about how do growers, especially some of the artisanal growers, how are they using water more efficiently, right? So things that I hadn't looked at before, right, that now I need to look at, because I do see...

again, maybe a little late, but I do see that I am a steward of this world, right? And I've got to be responsible in terms of what I'm doing. So a lot of the teas that we work with or the teas that are in our portfolio are from producers who handpicked the teas, right? So that's labor intensive. That is labor intensive work. They tend to be women.

Kaila Sachse (35:57.959)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (36:02.428)
right, because their hands are smaller, so women pick a lot. So we, you know, my responsibility, if, you know, if I'm saying that I'm going to be a good steward of whatever resources I've been assigned, then that is my commitment needs to be to ensure that I'm working with producers who are paying people fairly throughout the supply chain, right? So I've got this responsibility as a somebody who's consuming her tea.

and somebody who's selling tea. And also, if I'm talking to, I do a lot of B2B and sell to corporations, but if I'm selling to individuals, I have to have that same kind of conversation, so it's tailored to both of them. Talking to corporations, I'm like, listen, this is what your company says that you're focused on, and this is how our teas align with that. And it comes to individuals, that conversation is the same, that some people...

are really committed to that, right? And so those are conversations that are relatively easy, but there's some people who you're introducing the concept to them and, you know, some are interested and to be honest, some are just not, right? And so I can't make that judgment for people. I just have the opportunity to share with them, this is why, from what I understand, this is why it's important and, you know, accept it or leave it alone.

Kaila Sachse (37:27.089)
Yeah, yeah. Now, if someone is trying to start their own business, get into ethical manufacturing of any product, whether it's tea, coffee, clothing, technology, whatever it is, how would you, what advice would you give them? What red flags are there to look out for? What green flags where you're like, this is the one. How do you go about that?

Renee Rubens (37:50.062)
that is a long list. I say I was actually, had breakfast last week with a young lady who is starting her business. I said, listen, I'm not just going to dump on you, but I'm going to tell you all the red flags or all the things that I missed that one cost me a lot of money, right? Because I just didn't know and how you safeguard yourself. So I think that there are a lot of people who take

Kaila Sachse (37:52.378)
Hahaha

Kaila Sachse (38:09.893)
Ooh.

Renee Rubens (38:18.659)
Courses, right? And I support courses, I do, I think you should. But what I would always encourage people, and I didn't know this then, or I didn't think about it, I should say, if someone is selling a course to you on how to start a business, make sure that that person knows how to sell a product and not a service, right? It's very different margins, very different experiences, right?

Kaila Sachse (38:39.351)
yeah.

Kaila Sachse (38:45.503)
Renee Rubens (38:46.196)
And so because this woman had already signed up for the course, she was taking a service-oriented course. I said, of course. And they're telling you this and this and this. She's like, yeah, this has nothing to do with your business. You're selling a product, right? So you've got to look at your products differently. I would also say save your money and don't take all of these courses. research, there are many foundations. Like I did an event the other day. I attended an event the other day, and this was an actually online event.

with the Tory Burch Foundation. It was free and there was a wealth of information about people who were starting businesses and it was for both us, people who were starting businesses as well as people who were in business. And they shared with us a lot of different types of ways to look at your operational costs, what your packaging is going to look like, are you going to have an outside packager, are they going to take on the distribution.

how you're negotiating your contracts if you decide you want to be with a big box or a retailer if you've to sell a product. Those are the things that can be very attractive when you look at them. Have an attorney to read those contracts. But not just an attorney, somebody with a solid business mind, right? So let's just say you get a big contract with a big box retailer and that looks great.

One of the things that you may be, you want to be really mindful of if you've got a product is are they going to issue a PO or are they telling you net 30, right? The net 30, maybe net 180, right? And so you now have laid out the cash and you haven't gotten paid through. You also need to make sure you understand what your sell through rate is, right?

Kaila Sachse (40:22.862)
Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (40:27.961)
Yep.

Kaila Sachse (40:32.282)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (40:38.26)
And if yourself, the rate is underperforming and then they start cutting the cost because they're offering sales incentives to drive traffic, that's your money, right? It's not their money, it's your money, right? So I would always say, and again, I didn't do this and I wish I had, I would start with an advisory board, right? And make sure that advisory board has people on it who understand, maybe not specifically what you're doing,

Kaila Sachse (40:50.639)
Right.

Renee Rubens (41:07.923)
but have an idea of, you they have good business minds, right? So you may have your cousin Sally, who's a great criminal defense attorney, but she's not a business attorney. So do not put her on your board just because she's an attorney. So do not put Sally on your board unless you're looking, you know, unless you think, you you're going to have some antitrust violations maybe, but you don't, you're not there yet, right?

Kaila Sachse (41:35.949)
Sorry, Sally, you're not on the list.

Renee Rubens (41:38.382)
you know, you want somebody who you want people who aren't your advisory board who are So in your corner, right that they're going to say to you That's not a good idea or let's look at this in a different way Or they're going to ask you what are you trying to accomplish and then you back into it, right? because there are sometimes when we you know, we're like

Kaila Sachse (41:52.994)
Yes.

Renee Rubens (42:04.032)
I was very intentional about my packaging, right? Because packaging was really important for me. I'm a very visual person. I did spend a lot more on the packaging initially than I actually should have, right? But I learned, right? And then I started using different resources. I spent a lot on the tea and I still spend a lot on the tea because I'm very focused on having a clean supply chain and that people are paid fairly and that...

the end product is you're gonna get a really good quality teat. Those are fine. There are, now this is where the technology comes to play, right? You can have QuickBooks, right? Which is relatively inexpensive, but you know what? There's always a newcomer in the space that you don't necessarily have to spend the $27 a month on QuickBooks and you may wanna go to Xero, which is, I think it's X-E-R-O.

where you're spending $7 a month. There's only $13, but those $13 adds up because they're your $13. don't have the, you know, there times before you work in a corporation, you're like, eh, I'll put on my expense report, right? Or, you know, there's always, you know, there are always staples that you, you know, like all these products, all these things that you use, there's always paper, there's always, you know, paper that you can copy. Everything is available when you work in corporate America that's there.

Kaila Sachse (43:11.332)
Ha ha.

Renee Rubens (43:29.265)
That's their operational expense. And I'm not trying to suggest that I wasn't a good steward, but they're just things that you use, right? There's a calculator. my calculator's broken. Let me just call whoever and I'll get another calculator. Now I'm like, is it broken or does it just need a new battery? so I have to think about things very differently because I fund this, right? Another thing that I would suggest to people, and I've tried to live by this motto.

Kaila Sachse (43:47.551)
Yes!

Renee Rubens (43:58.585)
is grow slow so I don't know, right? Yes, you gotta grow slow. You know, because it's attractive to be able to have a product that's growing so fast and you need investors. And that's great, that's great that you're growing that fast, maybe. But now somebody else doesn't have, they're looking at your P &L.

Kaila Sachse (44:02.287)
Ooh, okay, let's dive into that.

Renee Rubens (44:26.946)
in a very different way than you're looking at your P &L. And if you take that money, I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying think about what it means to take that investor money, right? Because are you scaling the business because you need those resources or are you scaling the business because you're gonna make a lot of money, right? And I'm not saying making a lot of money is a bad thing. I'm not trying to suggest it at all.

Kaila Sachse (44:40.235)
Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (44:50.785)
Mmm.

Renee Rubens (44:55.245)
I am saying though, think about what your drivers are for why you want to do this. I would say to me, just grow slow so you don't owe, right? And then you own your business 100%.

Kaila Sachse (45:12.085)
Yeah. Yes. my goodness. I'm hearing so many gems. The first... Yeah. Well, that's how we learn, right? We...

Renee Rubens (45:16.815)
Oh, thank you. All the ways I lost money.

Renee Rubens (45:25.503)
Yeah, it was an expensive there was some expensive losses, but yeah And that you know and that seriously that is why I'm so thankful to be able to share this right because I'm saying to people You know and at the end they certainly can you know, I encourage people Go to my website send me an email my phone numbers there because I'm one of those again I'm old school right so I believe you should be able to call people. I know a lot of websites. Don't have phone numbers I'm you know, I'm much more likely to talk to you

and ask questions and if I have the answer I am more than happy to share it because I don't want you to burn through money the way I did. Make a mistake.

Kaila Sachse (46:03.321)
It's super easy to do. There are so many potholes that you could get stuck in if you just don't know how to navigate around them.

Renee Rubens (46:11.635)
Exactly, exactly. One of the other things that I think is important to look at, a couple of things. One, definitely create separate, now this I did early on, have separate bank accounts. Do not co-migrate the money. Have your business, your business account, should be that your business account and your personal account be your personal account. Keep those separate. It makes it so much easier at the end of the year for when you're doing your taxes or when you're doing your quarterly taxes, right? It's just a lifesaver.

Kaila Sachse (46:22.408)
yeah.

Renee Rubens (46:40.557)
SCORE is a wonderful resource. So the Small Business Administration, believe me, the Small Business Administration wants to see us succeed. So they provide organizations like assistance in places like SCORE. And you know what, if you need more assistance, there's a Google search, right? Because there's so many organizations out there. There's the Small Business, there's the, what is the name of that organization?

Kaila Sachse (46:43.329)
Yes.

Renee Rubens (47:09.677)
It's the minority women. There's one for minorities, there's one for women, and these are organizations that help you get the certification. So if you are working with larger organizations, they all have a database and they look in that database to make sure that you're there. And it becomes a lot easier to get contracts. Also, and I haven't pursued this intentionally, but there are a lot of government contracts, right? Even...

Kaila Sachse (47:36.001)
Renee Rubens (47:36.815)
even for me as a tea company, right? And the reason, for example, one of the opportunities, my college boyfriend and I are still friends and he was in the military, right? And he was a general or something. And he says, you know, the bases around the world, people buy products on the base. And I said, I didn't either. And he said, well, I know little something.

Kaila Sachse (47:58.679)
I've never thought about that.

Renee Rubens (48:07.518)
But yeah, so you may sell a product, you may sell handbags. There are women in the military, in Germany, in Japan, pick a country that they're going to buy your handbags because they're in the commissary.

Kaila Sachse (48:23.004)
my goodness. It's a whole world. It's a whole world out there, people.

Renee Rubens (48:24.33)
Who knew, right?

whole entire world, whole world of stuff that I was like, I would have never in a million years had he not said that to me about doing it. Now, you know, it's not that I'm not going to do it. I just don't have the bandwidth right now to add it on, but you know, we are looking at that for 2026 so that we can.

you thing that you have to do is make sure that you can distribute products in another country, right? So that's why you don't want your cousin Sally, who is a criminal defense attorney. You really want somebody who understands business and knows how to help you sell globally because you have to have different licensure, right? And especially now we've got tariffs going on. So, and so that's something else, right? That's not within my control, but I sell tea.

He used the majority of it comes from China, right? So now do I, I spent a lot of time figuring out, and there's a resource for everything, right? There are companies out there that can do the research for you for pricing, but you will have to pay for that. And I wasn't gonna pay for that. And so I spent a lot of time researching

Kaila Sachse (49:20.044)
Bye. Bye.

Renee Rubens (49:46.952)
where my mid-range is for what was acceptable for the personas that I had built out to reach with my messaging and my price point. But like I said, almost 60 % of the Ts that are in our portfolio are from China. There is a tariff now of 120-some-odd percent.

Kaila Sachse (50:14.623)
Right?

Renee Rubens (50:15.93)
Right. So I'm still going to sell Chinese teas, but I can't pass that on to somebody else. mean, some of it I can, some of it I can push back to my producers and ask for a little lower rate, but the majority is going to fall on me, which means that comes out of my profits. Right. And then how do you pivot your business quickly given an external

Kaila Sachse (50:23.051)
Great.

Kaila Sachse (50:37.449)
Right.

Renee Rubens (50:44.68)
influencer that's impacting your business, right? We're going to sell a lot more teas from India. That's it, you know? So we do carry teas from India. We do carry teas from Bhutan. We do carry teas from Nepal, from tea producing regions around the world. So we're going to be carrying more. China, that's going to be a hard thing to cover, right? So instead of having 55 to 60 % of my tea from China, maybe it'll go down to 35%. And then I increase my tea from

Kenya from India, because they have tariffs also, but not to the same degree, right? So one of the things that we were really intentional about when we were positioning the brand is that we wanted people to know that we were a resource, that you could buy teas from us from all the tea producing regions of the world. It so happens that I'd worked with a lot more growers in China. That's changing. And now I'm expanding that.

Kaila Sachse (51:19.477)
Right.

Renee Rubens (51:41.146)
to reach out and work with more of my growers in India, in Thailand, in Korea, in Vietnam, in Japan. this is where your marketing and your marketing communications is going to be really important, right? That messaging around, here's the opportunity for you to expand your palette and taste more teas from someplace else. But it's...

It's almost a blessing, right? Because it's really helping me diversify and lean into more producers in ways that I wasn't going to. And, you know, is it a blessing? It's what I have to tell myself so I don't become really annoying. Okay, yeah, so that's it.

Kaila Sachse (52:12.66)
Yeah.

Yes.

Kaila Sachse (52:22.44)
Yes.

Kaila Sachse (52:28.046)
Look, we're making lemonade out of lemon here. That's best we can do. No, and that's a great, that's another great lesson for somebody who is going into the manufacturing space. You really don't want to put all of your eggs in one basket. If you can diversify your manufacturers that actually make your product, if you're not the one manufacturing, right? If you're diversifying those efforts,

Renee Rubens (52:51.085)
Yes. Yeah, so here's the flip side of that, right? So yes, you want to be really mindful of the relationship that you have with your manufacturer and you don't want that manufacturer. And I would encourage you if you can go to

Kaila Sachse (52:55.398)
you have less of a chance of completely falling flat if your manufacturer falls flat.

Renee Rubens (53:16.407)
you know, if they're producing for you in India, that you go visit their facilities and make sure that they're, you know, meeting the criteria that you expect them to meet. At the same time, I would say...

You don't want to spread yourself too thin because you need consistency in your product, right? So you want to be able to say, all right, I'm producing a product and let's just say it's food, right? How many different companies do you really want to share your recipe with? Because that's your recipe and IP laws outside of the US are very different than IP laws in the US.

Kaila Sachse (53:57.64)
Right, right. And discuss for our listeners what an IP law is. Just a little brief.

Renee Rubens (54:01.569)
your intellectual property, right? So I made the decision that I did not want to pack outside of the US. So I make all of my blends in-house, right? So I keep the recipes and I provide the ingredient list, but I don't provide the formula. And I don't want to get to that space, right? I am okay with growing my business and I will still always

Kaila Sachse (54:19.114)
Renee Rubens (54:31.17)
bring all ingredients in-house, all raw materials in-house and make the formulas. I get countless calls and it's probably less labor intensive for me if I were to outsource that, but I don't want to give up my IP, right? One of the things that we're seeing a lot right now, especially during this tariff war, is we're seeing all of a TikTok, right? People are talking about, oh, you know, it's the same bag and we're just making it here.

Kaila Sachse (54:46.974)
Yes, right.

Renee Rubens (55:00.671)
And so again, we have different IP laws in different places around the world. So you can't hold somebody accountable, or maybe you can, you can try, but Sally, your cousin, Sally, your cousin is not an IP lawyer either. So, you know, this is where, again, this is where you have to think about who's on your advisory board.

Kaila Sachse (55:13.64)
Good luck.

Kaila Sachse (55:27.43)
Right, right. You only want to work with people who are experts in the same position that you need their help with.

Renee Rubens (55:36.307)
Exactly, exactly. when I, you know, I have an uncle who's a great, great accountant. His specialty was creating offshore accounts for high net worth people. That was his specialty. And I remember when I was starting and I was saying this to him, and he said, well, know, John, can I help you? I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. That is not the specialty that I need. And even, matter how much of a discount he gives me, right?

I'm like, he's really expensive because he has a real strong expertise that he has worked with globally. Aside from the that I don't need that, I need somebody who understands manufacturing accounting. They understand cost accounting in a way that's going to help me make sure that my business is always in compliance.

Kaila Sachse (56:16.376)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (56:24.477)
Yes, yes, yes. That is, which by the way, you mentioned earlier, service-based business versus product-based business. That is a huge differentiating factor is the bookkeeping. The books are so, so, so different. You wanna make sure you have specialists who are actually helping you with your books if you don't know how to do it. Yeah, yeah.

Renee Rubens (56:37.534)
Yep. So, different. Exactly. Exactly. Yep. Yep. And yeah, and I don't know how to do it, right? So I have to, so again, think about those margins, because you got to pay the accountant, right? Think about those margins, right? Because you've got to pay your attorney, right? Think about those, and those are the things that you should set up initially, early on in this process.

Kaila Sachse (56:53.256)
Yes!

Renee Rubens (57:07.206)
you need to set that up. I would think, I don't know, I would think most accountants are going to tell you you do not need to sign up, up as an S-corp, that you probably should start up as an LLC and that you're going to be safe until you reach a certain revenue number. And then there's some advantages to one over the other pending how your tax liabilities exist.

Kaila Sachse (57:25.404)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep.

Kaila Sachse (57:32.678)
A thousand percent. Yeah, that's where having a good CPA comes into play because you can ask him or her, hey, my revenue is X amount. My expenses are X amount. This is my net. Am I ready to file my business as an S Corp or do I leave it as is? Or even in some businesses, do I even need an LLC? Can I get away with a sole prop?

These are all really important business formation questions that you ask early on. And then you check in with over time, maybe on an annual basis when you're doing your taxes, hey, are we still good?

Renee Rubens (57:59.335)
Okay.

Renee Rubens (58:07.836)
Yeah, there are times, it's funny, I was talking to my accountant today, I you know, think I should do such as a thing. She's like, and I think you're not a CPA. So let's just say that is exactly.

Kaila Sachse (58:20.1)
That's a good CPA. It's really, really important to have people on your board who are not yes people. If you have yes people on your board, they're not helpful.

Renee Rubens (58:27.812)
She's like, yeah, you should, right. But she was like, yeah, you're not a CPA and that is a bad idea. We have a great relationship. We've worked together for years. She's like, that is a bad idea for you.

Kaila Sachse (58:42.146)
Love her! Keep her!

Renee Rubens (58:44.988)
Absolutely, absolutely. yeah, so there are so many little gems that I've learned. Like I said, I had lunch with somebody last week or breakfast and I was just giving her all the things that I spend money on that I did need to spend money on, I lost money on because I just hadn't thought it through. And, you know, there were times, right, and this is where the emotional toll takes in, right? I was like, I'm smart, I did this.

know, negotiated contracts with other people. How did I not see this? How did I not see that? Right? And as much as I try to look at things through the lens of somebody else, I didn't know how to think like an owner. Right? Right. And now I think like an owner in ways that were very different. I remember

Kaila Sachse (59:20.944)
Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (59:30.819)
Renee Rubens (59:36.699)
I was talking to a really good friend of mine who, I don't call myself an entrepreneur because I think that's an inaccurate word. I'm a small business owner, but this is a friend of mine who's really an entrepreneur. And so I had a breakdown one night a couple of years ago and I called him. He's in California and I'm crying and he's just like, oh, that didn't make sense. Why did you do this? And why did you do that? And I was like, well, I thought this. And he said, girl, you do not work in corporate America anymore. So I said,

Yeah, and so I said, he's like, what? So tell me what you think you should do given you having a little bit of money or you having spent this amount of money and you only yielded this. And I said, well, I need to get this. He said, so back into it, back into what you need to get to and what's the priority, right? And I think back when I was selling, somebody may come to me and say, I need to do this. I need to do that. I need to do this. And then I would say to them, OK, great.

Here's what that's going to cost. And they'd say, wait, I don't have the budget to do that. And then we would sit down and say, OK, well, let's scale this, right? What's an absolute must? this is a must. What about this? That's a must too. OK, so those are the must. This is important, but we can do this part later while we satisfy the must. And I think about that a lot now in running my business. Like, I must do, I must have a certain amount of inventory.

Kaila Sachse (01:00:46.203)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (01:01:05.249)
Right? And just like I said, with the current tariff situation, I must sell, I must buy, this is the harvesting season right now, right? So I must buy X amount of dollars worth of inventory to carry me through the next six months till the second harvest comes, right? And so tariffs have an impact, right? Because

Kaila Sachse (01:01:05.478)
Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (01:01:27.897)
right.

Kaila Sachse (01:01:33.231)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (01:01:34.014)
What would have been maybe $100,000 worth of tea now is $200,000. And I get the same tea, so it's not like I'm getting more tea. I'm getting the same amount. So it's not like I can say, I'm going to spend $200,000 and that's going to give me a lot more yield. It's not. It's just going to give me So I had to say, OK, let me back into this. And I find myself doing that a lot. Let me back into this. Let me pivot. Because there's still a demand for.

Kaila Sachse (01:01:43.481)
Right? Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (01:01:51.503)
Right.

Renee Rubens (01:02:03.318)
Indian teas and Japanese teas, and then I'm going to have to push. And so then I monitor that on a day-to-day basis, what's happening in this space that's going to impact my business, right? So the pivot was I'm going to be maybe 30 % on Chinese teas as opposed to 60 % and increase all the other teas from someplace else,

Kaila Sachse (01:02:29.093)
Right, right, right. Yeah, so sounds like I'm hearing two things. First, you want a goal in mind. You need to understand where you want to take your business. And then secondly, it's evaluating what's actually going on out in the world and how does that affect your supply chain and your end consumer as well. So keeping an eye on what's actually happening and not just doing the same old same old that's previously worked for your business.

Renee Rubens (01:02:57.352)
Yeah, and you know, I have to be honest. And again, my children are now adults, right? And they're tremendously helpful. So I do events with Bloomingdale's once a month, right? And so we'll do activations with them. And so it's a great partnership to have. When I tell you, my kids and my grandchildren are out there with me.

Kaila Sachse (01:03:18.616)
Love that.

Renee Rubens (01:03:18.953)
You know, helping me to look at things in a way, right? When we're setting up, my granddaughter, who's nine, is there. She's like, nah, this needs to be moved over. We can move this here. So we do have this bond. I have a wonderful relationship with my children now where they are there helping me out. One of my daughters, my middle daughter, she's my comedian. And she's like, listen, my job here is to look and make suggestions.

Those other two, they can do the picking of the peas up and lifting it up.

Renee Rubens (01:03:56.903)
a good time. But you know, it's, I'm thankful, right, that I've got a family who's really supportive of what I'm doing and the work that we're able to produce. And so they, you know, I'm working on being better at social media, right, and they'll look at my stuff on social media, they're like, we need to hire somebody. So now actually, again, now this is you have to think about this, right, this is coming out of my profits and

When you think about your social media usage, right? What's the, what is the platform and what are the platforms that are going to be best for your type of business? Right? That's important. So I, 85 % of my business is B2B. Um, so as I'm interviewing people to become my social media manager, I'm going to need them to be comfortable in navigating LinkedIn.

Kaila Sachse (01:04:41.582)
Yep. Yep.

Renee Rubens (01:04:58.331)
Right? Some things, some Facebook, but navigating LinkedIn, right? And then that's got to tie to the message of, you know, why these Indian teas are great. Why these, you know, so it's, it's, you're constantly finding yourselves thinking about this. I, you know, sometimes I, I do, I think about people who start businesses by themselves. Right. And I say, I see why people have partners in business.

Kaila Sachse (01:04:58.699)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

Renee Rubens (01:05:26.227)
Right? Because there's somebody else to lift some of the stuff that you're not able to do by yourself.

Kaila Sachse (01:05:26.626)
Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (01:05:34.231)
Yes, yes, yes. And for those out there who are solopreneurs or solo business owners, it's at least important to have that advisory board like previously mentioned. I mean, I think Renee, you hit that right on the head. You gotta have people who can do things in a very specific way for a very specific function for your business and have them be good at it. You don't want somebody, you don't want Sally, right? Who doesn't know what she's?

Renee Rubens (01:05:39.603)
Thank

Renee Rubens (01:05:46.725)
Absolutely.

Renee Rubens (01:06:01.043)
Thank

a great criminal lawyer, right? But you don't need a criminal lawyer, you need a business lawyer. And so her skill set is different. And you need to really be mindful of where and how you're sourcing, right? Right? And this is something else I would share. Make sure your mission statement is clear, right? Because that contributes to the culture that you build.

Kaila Sachse (01:06:05.047)
Sure. Right, right.

Kaila Sachse (01:06:19.447)
Yes.

Kaila Sachse (01:06:32.75)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (01:06:32.768)
But in making your mission statement clear, you can stay on track. There are times when producers may come to me and they're driven by sale, they're driven by cost. And that's not my business. My business is not driven by the cost of the tea. It's an important factor, but it's not the sole price. So they, because as I built out the mission, I built out the

qualifiers for who I was going to use as a producer and if they couldn't meet this right if I say that I only want hand-picked teas right and you're telling me they're picking by machine I'm not saying machine picking is bad it's just not a part of my business model right so I can easily eliminate because I promise you when you start your business whether it's a service or a product but especially a product everyone

that you never imagined will be calling you trying to sell you something. I get so many out there's efforts. There are times when I come into my office and there's just tea everywhere, right? People send it to you, they just sip it. And I'm like, okay. So initially I used to always try to drink it all, right? Just to taste it. Then I said, some of it is great, but it's not necessarily what I want.

Kaila Sachse (01:07:34.795)
Yeah, that's so true.

Kaila Sachse (01:07:48.749)
Now here we go again.

Renee Rubens (01:07:59.139)
Before I go through that, let's go through, you meeting the criteria that I have set that aligns with my mission?

Kaila Sachse (01:08:06.177)
Yes.

Renee Rubens (01:08:11.756)
So, and if they're not, then I'm more than happy to say, you know what, here's somebody I know who's playing in your space. Because I always like to pass forward the information. Here's somebody who's playing in your space. You might be able to make a sale here. You may be able to be a good provider for this one, right? It just doesn't align with what I'm doing.

Kaila Sachse (01:08:30.613)
Yeah, this goes back to that scarcity versus abundant mindset. It's okay to say no if something just isn't in alignment. If anything, you're sparing yourself future heartache.

Renee Rubens (01:08:41.818)
Exactly, exactly. it's, you know, you do find yourself thinking a lot about the stuff, right? The little details, right? I wish, I wish I could spend 90 % of my time tasting teas and sharing teas with people. That would be the greatest.

more like 20 % of my time, right? That's not the reality of how I get to spend my day, right? And I am, it was a valuable lesson to learn that, oh, I don't get to just drink tea all day and make it look pretty. Oh no, I've got other things I've got to do. So yeah, so that's.

Kaila Sachse (01:09:06.209)
you

Kaila Sachse (01:09:26.785)
Yeah, yeah, it's about prioritizing what's urgent. I always think of the four quadrants, right? You've got the urgent and important, the important, the not urgent, not important, and the not important. So just prioritize the things, focus on what's urgent, important, and important, because those are your business builders, and keep on chugging. Oh my goodness, Renee, so many gems.

Renee Rubens (01:09:39.275)
Right. that. Yeah. You know, let me share one last one, and this is one that took me a minute to figure out. So when you got a product, right, and especially if it's food, and then everybody is going to invite you to participate in the pop-up, right, to do a pop-up shop.

Kaila Sachse (01:09:52.46)
Yes, please.

Kaila Sachse (01:10:05.237)
Yeah.

Renee Rubens (01:10:06.924)
Right and and and let me share why right some of them work right and so if you treat this as a line item in terms of marketing and just want to get all its mass exposure Then it's fine, right? But mindful that it costs you to get there, right? You've got to pay whatever the fee is

Kaila Sachse (01:10:26.379)
Yeah. Yeah.

Renee Rubens (01:10:34.346)
You've got to bring the food, you've got to prepare the food, you've got to give away the free food, but it's not free because you paid for it, And people will come by and just, can I taste, can I taste, can I taste, can I taste? They're never gonna buy, they're never gonna buy from you. Now, if you're able to treat that like a line item, okay, fine. You're like, okay, this is just exposure because

Kaila Sachse (01:10:43.253)
Right. Right, right.

Renee Rubens (01:11:03.302)
there were 2000 people that saw my brand today, right? And maybe I spent $300 and I'm able to collect, you know, 50 emails, still a high acquisition costs for your emails, but you did get some exposure, right? I think that I would look at if you, let's say you've got,

Kaila Sachse (01:11:18.933)
Yeah, yeah, right.

Renee Rubens (01:11:28.414)
you know, some biscotti that you've made and it's high quality ingredients. You, you source the flower from King Arthur and it's really expensive. I would not, I would not be at just the average pop-up shop, but I would say, you know what, look, there's, may be a gourmet store. There may be a fresh market. There may be a Whole Foods and you get the benefit of their marketing, right?

Kaila Sachse (01:11:36.352)
Yeah, yeah.

Renee Rubens (01:11:57.352)
And you're able to leverage that because you're in there doing a pop-up with people who can say, you know what, the average box of biscotti may be $6, but yours may be $11. And they're willing to spend that extra $5 because of the quality of the ingredients, and you can tell your story. But generic pop-ups, sometimes they work, but I have found them to be a really expensive line item in marketing, and I don't really do them.

Kaila Sachse (01:12:14.452)
Yes, yes.

Renee Rubens (01:12:26.3)
And then which leads to everyone will call you and ask you for a donation. Right? You have no idea of how many T boxes. So I've gotten to the point now where I put a cap on how many T events and boxes I will do a year. Some of them can be great exposure, right? And those have been fine, right?

Kaila Sachse (01:12:32.52)
Mmm.

Kaila Sachse (01:12:48.736)
Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (01:12:55.984)
Some of them. I was just like, okay, I just gave away. just, you know, that was just a give me, right? There was nothing, there was no return there. And you're not always looking for a return, but you do, you have to be mindful that you bought, it was your packaging, it was your product, it was your shipping costs, right? And, you know, so don't be afraid to ask if somebody calls and says, hey,

Kaila Sachse (01:13:15.475)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Renee Rubens (01:13:23.527)
We're doing this great event during World Cup and we'd like you to donate whatever. More often than not, they'll say no, but don't be afraid to ask for their email list of who they're marketing to or how much, where can your logo be placed on that, right? You'll start to find that people are not, they know the value of their brands, but they don't necessarily, I don't wanna say they don't respect the value of your brand.

Kaila Sachse (01:13:35.327)
Mm-hmm.

Kaila Sachse (01:13:41.023)
Bye.

Renee Rubens (01:13:52.507)
They think their brand is worth a lot more and that you should be happy to give them products. And there have been a couple of high-end organizations that I've said, that's a no. That is a hard no. Because your exposure for me is not a measurable ROI.

Kaila Sachse (01:14:02.751)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Kaila Sachse (01:14:12.585)
Right, right, right. It has to be a win-win partnership with whatever deal you're going into. Whether it's strictly marketing or you're going in it looking for conversions or sales, you want those numbers to make sense. Yep, yep, yep.

Renee Rubens (01:14:14.428)
So.

Renee Rubens (01:14:28.327)
Right, right, right, right. So, you know, get those kids out there, let them tell you a story for you.

you remind them and I am that mother that says I gave birth to you. was in labor for hours for you. You have to help me.

Kaila Sachse (01:14:48.723)
you how do you build a family structure where they want to help you? No, no, it's guilt. We're guilting our daughters into this.

Renee Rubens (01:14:54.277)
So again, my middle daughter is my comedian, I was only in labor with her for three hours, right? So she's like, I have paid that back a long time over.

Kaila Sachse (01:15:02.934)
my gosh,

Kaila Sachse (01:15:11.774)
my gosh. Renée.

Renee Rubens (01:15:14.661)
So no, they are very supportive. My son-in-law, mean, even my dad. I have my whole family out there hawking tees or that.

Kaila Sachse (01:15:24.37)
Love that. That is, that's so fun. That actually sounds like more fun than if you were out there by yourself. Like, yeah.

Renee Rubens (01:15:30.213)
It is, right? is. they're always, you know, especially my nine-year-old granddaughter and my seven-year-old grandson. We did an event last year with a really high-end hotel here. And so I took them, my staff, right? They were 11, nine, and seven, right? So I took the staff with me and I had them carrying the keys in and...

Kaila Sachse (01:15:47.888)
You

Renee Rubens (01:15:53.507)
And my client just loved them and she took them on, it's a beautiful, really high end hotel here. And she took them on a tour and they loved it. And in the end she's like, you we got a candy store over here, have at it. So they think work is going on tours. know, the hard part was they had to bring some boxes in, then they got to go on a tour and then they got a bunch of candy. And they're like, work is great.

Kaila Sachse (01:16:06.878)
Kaila Sachse (01:16:19.294)
Which you know what, that's not a bad mindset to have. I'm not mad at the next generation having that mindset. Because if we can look at work in a positive way, we can enjoy it so muchmore.

Renee Rubens (01:16:30.262)
when you're seven and you get in a bunch of candy you're like whoa who doesn't want to work like this?

Kaila Sachse (01:16:38.622)
my gosh, Renee, this has been such a fun chat. Thank you so much.

Renee Rubens (01:16:42.528)
I had so much fun. Thank you so much for allowing me to share my experiences. And like I said, please feel free with your audience. The website is www.symphonyofleaft.com. And if there's any questions in any way I can help you in kind of helping, you know, new small business owners, I am more than happy to share any little tidbits and answer any questions.

Kaila Sachse (01:17:08.222)
Oh my goodness, you're such a gem. Thank you so much.

Renee Rubens (01:17:10.144)
Thank you. Thanks.