The Ins & Outs of Freelancing

Freelance web designer Cami MacNamara offers practical advice for web designers, solopreneurs, and women entrepreneurs striving for sustainable success with clarity and boundaries. Whether you're building recurring revenue or managing client relationships, you'll find actionable insights to empower your business journey.

Cami and Bringing Up Business host, Kaila Sachse, delve into practical tips for client management, building recurring revenue, setting boundaries, and maintaining mental well-being. They also explore the realities of running a successful, sustainable web design business while balancing life and family. 

Cami also shares her experiences with challenging clients and the valuable lessons learned from them. She emphasizes the importance of recognizing when frustration arises and the need for self-care to maintain a healthy work-life balance.

About Cami MacNamara

Cami MacNamara is a longtime web designer and founder of WebCami LLC in Seattle. For over 20 years, she’s built websites for small businesses and nonprofits while raising a family and running her one-person studio. Today, she also leads a community for freelance web designers, sharing real-world advice about balancing business, creativity, and life outside of work.

webcami.com

webdesignerhabits.com

facebook.com/groups/webcamicafe

Earn 15k AMEX Membership Rewards Points
From bulk purchases to managing your cash flow needs, use your AMEX Blue Business® Plus Credit Card.

Receive $20 for Buzzsprout podcasting
Start podcasting with Buzzsprout, the easiest software for hosting, promoting, & tracking your show.

Save 10% on Drymile
Use code BUB on drymile.com to save on waterproof socks, gloves, and more.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction
• 2:02 The longevity and growth of Cami’s solo web design business
• 4:27 Business Resilience
• 11:28 The role of websites today: foundational or optional?
• 20:46 Seasonal offerings and filling business gaps
• 24:54 Habits for daily productivity and mental clarity
• 35:14 How to handle client challenges
• 39:25 Effective client onboarding from lead to project launch
• 44:38 The value of focusing on your strengths
• 53:07 How to connect with Cami for collaboration or coaching

Transcript

0:00

when I started thinking about what habit could I do today? You know, the Miracle Morning you do a push up a day and then by the time a year has come, you're doing 20 push ups, right? So I time block my days. And I take notes every day. I check my email three times a day. I don't do it all day long. And, you know, I just have these small little habits that are tiny. And if I can do half of them, they've improved my day. Welcome back to the Bringing Out Business podcast, where we talk about business and parenting. If this is your first time listening, thank you so much for being here and welcome. This show is brought to you by marketing and creative agency, Yumari Digital. Whether you want to work for yourself or you already have a business and you're planning a family, you are in the right place with this show. Our goal is to empower you with strategies so that you can confidently work for yourself while raising a family. I am your host, Kaila Sachse I have been self-employed for the past nine years and I'm currently raising a toddler. It's a little insane right now, but I know there's a light at end of the tunnel and honestly with what I do and my work, I'm actually really, enjoying this. Let's introduce today's guest. Today's guest is Cami MacNamara, a Seattle based web designer. She owns WebCami LLC. Since 2002, she has built over 600 websites and she manages more than 200 through ongoing care plans. Cami is also the author of Web Designer Habits Newsletter, where she shares practical strategies for running a sustainable web design business. Cami, I'm so glad you could join me today and welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. I love your podcast and I just can't wait to have a discussion with you. I've been so looking forward to this. The last we spoke, I think it was what, six months-ish ago? So it's been, yeah, it's been a while, so I've been really looking forward. Okay, so let's go back even further in time, back to when you started your business in 2002. what prompted you to start your own thing? Why did you start your own business? What were you doing at the time? What did that look like? Well, I worked for a corporate retail company in downtown Seattle and the hours were super long. And when I became pregnant, I thought I would just go right back to work. And in fact, I did have a nanny for a while But I did it for like three months and I thought I really just want to be with my son. Then I tried to do that and I just was a worker that didn't work for me either. So I went into a business with two other women that I worked with in corporate retail and we started a gift and polo trophy business for polo teams, which sounds very niche, but we had contacts in that area. did that for a couple of years but I really wanted to do something on my own that I didn't have partners and I could just work from home. I picked up a web designer or a web design book, fell in love with it and I started going to school. So once I started doing that, I just started volunteering all over the community. And by the time my son was five, I had started my business and was working part time when he was going to school. So he was in kindergarten at the time and I've been going strong ever since. So it just continued to grow and the longevity of it has just been great. That's amazing. That's absolutely amazing. Congratulations on your continued success. It's not easy, right? When we go off on our own and yeah, definitely challenging. It's hard to stay on top of everything, right? But you managed to do it. Yeah, yeah. What do you think has fueled your ability to keep going and keep pressing through those hard times when maybe you don't want to wake up early to do the project or maybe you don't want to meet the deadline at the time and you're tempted to push it or whatever that hard time looks like? What helps you keep going through that? So I really like listen to myself. Like I haven't always had that. I mean, I remember being absolutely frantic trying to deal with everything on my plate. And as I grown in my business, I have grown in the ability to tell people when I need more time and, you know, really empower myself to control the timeline and not let the client do it. That wasn't always the case. But when you kind of turn it into your power, not their power, it helps you push through those times. So that's something I've learned over time. That is such an important point. It's so easy for us to fall into stress because we've just said yes to everything. You know, just, for example, I had a client who contacted me about a project, we'll call it day one, and then the next day he's touching base on how the project is going. When realistically a project like that, this was an email marketing campaign, a project like that, it's not going to be an overnight turnaround. I am not working around the clock just for his project alone. I have a queue of people who've come in before him. And also it's unrealistic to expect an overnight turnaround from anybody. just, yeah, I've had to get back to him and be honest. right. really, the thing that I changed, that's something that's so common, right? And so now when I onboard a client and my proposal documents come through and all of that, I am encouraging them to know that I'm the project manager. and that they're going to get a weekly update from me, not a daily update. So, but you know, those are the things that like, I will always document the experience that I'm having and try to come up with a way to never have it happen again. So I kind of look at those clients as the best teachers on how I can refine my systems. And that's been a huge help for me. That is very well put because at the end of the day, we can't avoid having sour experiences. That's just, they're going to happen. The best we can do though is learn from them. So instead of having them recur and over and over again, and now we're digging a hole for ourselves and eventually burning out and maybe even quitting our businesses, we can instead pivot and say, okay, that experience wasn't very fun. How can I avoid that from happening again? So yeah, I absolutely love that. I have a blog post on one of my websites somewhere that is really about like the worst client I ever had taught me the best lesson. And that's just, you know, me taking that experience and making sure it never happened again. So, you know, if you turn it around that way, I have lunch on Zoom every Thursday with my web designer BFF. And we were talking today about things and saying how that moment where you start getting frustrated by all your clients is the universe telling you to take a day off. Because when we work for ourselves, don't just, you know, it's like, I'm going to take a vacation day. We don't do that. And, you know, I might be on the verge of one tomorrow. You and me both sister. It's so funny that you say that because what is the point of designing our lives, right? And living in an alternative way because we could realistically turn to a nine to five or a full-time job, a part-time job working for somebody else and sacrificing that flexibility with how we get to choose our time. Right? So why is it that we choose the flexibility and yet we still don't really take advantage of it? You know, what do you think that's about? It's crazy. Well, I think sometimes we're just wired to have a boss, right? And so a lot of our clients, like you and I being in the marketing space, that type of, they hire us and then there is a feeling that we're part of their team, which I appreciate and I like, but I'm also not. I'm also the driver of what I'm working on. So I think there is a balance that we need to strike when we're first onboarding those clients to really put that out in front. And all the mistakes that I made in the past where things went really south were me not standing up for myself as the project manager. Yeah, yep. That reminds me of a conversation that I had with my husband years ago when I was feeling so maybe ashamed is the emotional word of how poorly one of my clients businesses was performing. I was so invested in that in that client and in what they were doing and I really wanted to see it succeed. And I was actually blaming myself for their lack of sales and their lack of this and their lack of that. When in reality, this was the wake up call that he had shared with me. Their business is not my business. They are steering their own ship that has zero to do with me. What I do, the role that I do play, though, is the role that I have committed to. to them. So whatever it is that they have hired me for, is the only commitment that I have, right? Now, I going to be loyal to my clients and be on their team? Of course, I love that. I absolutely love that dynamic. But am I going to have to hold responsibility for how my clients' businesses perform? No, that's unrealistic unless they're sharing equity and hiring me on in a different way. Well, I think naturally we want to support them, right? Like women were helpers. We want to help them succeed. We want to make sure that, you know, we're giving it our all and helping them. Like right now in web design, so many of my clients are like, my search results are down. Well, guess what? everybody's are down. AI people are finding the answer before they ever click down to see and it's changing for all of us. So you know in that instance it you do you kind of feel their angst and we're have this economy that people are worried about and it's just you know it's palpable that feeling of just not having the control or things are different than they were. And I think all my clients are having an adjustment to how they utilize their website. you know, the email marketing is so much more important. And anyway, I do think we just we feel because that's what women in business do. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Let's talk about that for a bit. do you think the purpose is of a website here in this current day and age? I've heard in some spheres like, hey, websites are phasing out. We don't need them. But I've heard in other spheres where it's like, hey, websites are still incredibly important. So what do you think? I think the website is sort of like a big piece of your online presence. years ago, I would say it was the sun and social media were the planets going around your website. I don't think it's quite the nucleus that it used to be. It's still big, right? Maybe it's Jupiter now. Yeah. And everything else is out there, but I think a really important piece is to think about what happened to the people on TikTok when TikTok went down and the government shut it down. Your followers on social media do not belong to you. They belong to the platform. So having your website be your anchor, having a newsletter and a mailing list All of those things help you stay connected when everything else might be taken away from you for a policy violation or, who knows what could happen in the future. So that is why I think it's important. I think a lot of business is still local. most of the businesses that I work for are local businesses. They aren't necessarily a national. business. So when you're doing local business, people expect you to have a website. It legitimizes you. And also, it gives a place for your reviews to connect to and there are so many pieces but uh I am a believer that you need to have a website and you need to kind of own that, right? Whether you're I'm a WordPress to developer first and WordPress allows you to really be the owner of your website. Unlike Wix, Weebly, Squarespace. I do Squarespace websites as well and that's appropriate for some types of businesses. But uh definitely I'm not ready to say just throw your website out yet. Like things are changing though. We don't know where where it's going. AI is really changing our entire landscape. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. You know, it's funny, my best friend reached out to me today and he was like, hey, I got an email from someone who can build me a website for free. And I was like, huh, what? Right, just, and he's like, hey, can you scan through this email that they sent me and look for any red flags? And I was like, hey, this whole concept. feels like a giant red flag And so I told him like, hey, make sure you own that website. Make sure you can actually be in control of that website because yes, like your website should be the one thing in your business, among other things, that you actually own and can control because unlike the TikTok shutdown, right? many people were destroyed by that. the idea of, yeah, even the idea of Meta going down, that would destroy people's businesses if they don't have that other space for their business to live in and on. So yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up. I would use the analogy to your friend that if somebody knocked on your front door and said, I'm a house cleaner, I'll clean your house for free. Would you let them in your house to clean it? The odds are probably no, because you're opening up your home. all my clients get those emails that are like, I can do your SEO. I'll do this. Anybody that sends you a cold email is no one you should ever do business with. That's yeah, because one you don't know who is on the other end of that email. It can look like it's somebody in your neighborhood and it could be somebody Just look ing to steal your information. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just tread light, tread carefully folks, because at the end of the day, like Cami says, like you don't know who's on the other side, what their intentions are, no idea, zero idea. So yeah, we gotta be careful when we're building our businesses and who we're hiring. That's right, my house might be really dirty sometimes and it would be wonderful to have an Alice show up at my front door, but I don't know that person. So same, same theory. Yeah, yeah, tread, tread carefully. You had mentioned before that you had had a partner with a previous venture and then, but you decided to go off on your own and do your own thing. Respectfully speaking, what was it about having a partner that you did not enjoy? And we're sharing this with the audience members who are weighing the pros and cons. are dear friends, and they're still my friends. And there was like, absolutely nothing bad about our situation other than when you divided the profits three ways, there was hardly any profit. So in what we were doing, and it was a great learning experience. But at the end of the day, I'm you know, driving with my son because he we had a daycare going upstairs and we were working in the basement. And by the time all that was done, I just wasn't making any money. Right. Not not enough to make a difference. And so that's when I kind of decided I want to work solo because then I'm not dividing the profits. And I still to this day, I don't even outsource anything. I've had a couple VAs that have been great. That has been helpful. But for the most part, my overhead is very low. And so all the money I make is my own. And that was really the reason why. Yeah, yeah, it's nice to have that control over the revenue and understanding like, hey, everything I'm making is my profit. I don't have to split it. And that's something that you can build into your business model when you go into... being a solopreneur. So you intentionally choose like, I'm going to be a solopreneur, understanding that maybe I can't take on a billion projects and scale up in a massive way. But the trade off there is that I get to have 100 % profit in revenue and control over this business. On the other side of this, had a very good friend who was running a popular agency here in Seattle and he shared with me his like revenue spreadsheet and he made triple what I make, but he had six people working as contractors and his take home pay was the same. And so my, my gut after seeing that was I don't need to expand. Because of course I could triple my output But I'm gonna clear the same amount of money. So why not just be on my own? Right, right. And the point, one of the major benefits of going out on your own is being able to control your own schedule and control your own life, design your own life. And for me, maybe this is something for the audience to think about, right? Like if you're listening in, think about what your values are in life. What do you want out of life? For me, when I went out on my own, I wanted freedom. That was my... biggest marquee item. And I can only imagine how much time and mental load your friend is sacrificing by having a larger team. agent, he sold his agency. So, you know, he, I mean, he's very happy. But, you know, it wasn't a long term thing for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's okay. And that's okay, you know, and that's... Yeah. he's living his best life. I'm very happy for him, but Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And that's something else for listeners to consider. Like you don't have to work in your business for forever. You could have an exit plan of selling and that's cool too. Like that is an option. Yeah, I've had friends retire and pass their business along to, you know, various people and other people have purchased businesses. It can be a good lucrative way to look at it. Absolutely, absolutely. And for some people that is the only way, right? So I have a client for example, who that is their sole intent is to eventually sell. So they are making decisions now in order to help that happen later on down the road. it... very lucrative thing to do. And you know, a lot of people are wired for that more entrepreneurial spirit type thing versus the solopreneur. It would be a little tough for me to sell WebCami. I think I'm taking it to the grave because it's my name. But you know, we'll see what happens. it there are many ways to do this. And I think people just need to pick the right way for them. and not to feel pressure to do it another way. Like, you know, I have gotten a lot of pressure over the years, like, Cami, why don't you expand? Why don't you hire? Well, it's not right for me, but that doesn't mean it's not right for somebody else. Yeah, yeah. What's beautiful about your story is that it sounds like you've had an intuitive sense of what works well for you and pairing that with your maybe it's bravery, maybe it's courage, or maybe it's just how you how you do life. Pair that story. Yeah, yeah, pairing that with with your ability to say yes or no, firmly, this is what I want to do. And that that can help you a lot with reducing mental load to I talk about mental load a lot. for any woman who has her own business, I think your power to say yes and no to what you are in tune with is just it's it makes or breaks it in terms of your happiness, you know. yeah. Oh yeah. It definitely has a deep, deep effect on how you feel about your days, right? Because we have a limited number of days. Yes, and it's a day to day process of running your business. Tell me more. What does your typical schedule look like and your typical day or week look like? Or is there a typical? no, I am incredibly structured. It's sort of why the Web Designer Habits thing came to be. So I am somebody who over the years has signed up for so many like uh online workshops and how to do this and how to do that, trying to just find peace in my day. Like the day to day is the struggle for a business owner. And so I have done some remarkable courses that I loved, but it took me a year and a half to implement the program. And so when I started just thinking about what habit could I do today? You know, the whole do one push up a day thing. I forget what you know, that was the Miracle Morning or something you do a push up a day and then by the time a year has come, you're doing 20 push ups, right? So I time block my days. And I take notes every day. I just have these incremental small habits. I check my email three times a day. I don't do it all day long. There are days when I just turn it off completely if I'm working on design. And, you know, I just have these small little habits that are tiny. And if I can do half of them, they've improved my day. You know, so it's more or less. trying to make small incremental changes in how you handle your work day so you don't feel frazzled all the time. Now, do I have days where I'm just like, oh, you know, things don't go right? I do. But then the next day I just start over and try to do it right. Or to not do it right, but to do more of the habits that I didn't get to the day before. I love that. kind of the topics that I hit on on my newsletter. That's so holistic because it's not saying, hey, you have to do all of the things all right now and pay $1,500 to be fixed overnight. It's none of that get rich quick kind of stuff. It's a, hey, I have control over this little tiny minute habit. That's it. And I just got to practice that. Yeah. if I, you know, don't respond to emails until at the end of the day versus, you know how we have, I have it. It's like I get an email and I want to fix it, but I'm in the middle of something else. So sometimes I will go ahead and type the email because it makes me feel better, but I'll schedule it to go out at the end of the day. So the client, you're training your clients to for the person who always responds to the client immediately there. If you don't do it the next time, they're going to be like, Hey, I didn't hear from you like 10 minutes ago. So if you're always pushing out and make, you know, giving yourself a buffer, you're training them to know that you're not dropping everything. Yep. Ooh, that's so important. And that also includes responding at 11 PM or responding on weekends if you don't want to work weekends or vacation time. Yeah. great habit is the email auto responder that goes on Friday at four o'clock or whenever your day ends that says, thanks for your email. I'm closed on the weekends. And unless you're having an emergency, which means your website's down, not like I forgot to send this to you. I'll get back to you Monday. Yeah, that one's a oh one. That trains your client. Ooh, I might start practicing that. I like that. Right now, I'm in busy, it's a busy season. I just got an influx of clientele and I've set an autoresponder that says, we're in busy season and it's gonna take me a minute to get back to you. So it's adjusting that expectation. it's also good in your email signature. You can put any emails sent after I say 11 a.m. on Friday may not be returned until Monday. just so anywhere you can just drop hints. It's helpful. I absolutely love that. It's setting expectation for both the client, but also it's relieving that pressure on yourself, especially as a parent, right? When you have younger children or kids who demand your attention at specific times of the day, you really can't be on your phone. It just doesn't work. You can't give your kids the attention that they deserve. It's unhelpful for their development, unhelpful for your relationship. know, after I've worked a long day, I'm not going to give you my best at 7 p.m. or 9 p.m. or, you know, I will respond if somebody's website is dead in the water. Right. But that's a rare occasion. And I think. when we met earlier, I told you that my parents passed away in 2022 and that was kind of like a very, it was very difficult to keep my business going and I managed to do it. And part of that was keeping my clients informed and putting up boundaries. So it would be like, I'm going to be with my folks. And at the time they didn't have internet at their house. So I'd be like, you know, if you have an emergency, I'm not going to be able to get back to you right away. So they were all so wonderful. But it really helped me form that. That not a barrier between being somebody I'm not a 24 /7 call center. Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the end of the day, it's okay for us to put up our own personal boundaries, especially when we're going through something difficult. I feel like it's hard for us. Maybe this is a female thing that we've told ourselves. We always have to be there for everybody else all the time, right? We forget to be there for ourselves and check in. So that's something else. Yeah. owners are on all the time. That's their choice. So you don't have to make the same choice. My son is 28 now, but I started the business when he was five. We went through everything, 13 years of Little League. He played all the way until late teens in that. I would sometimes at that point get a phone call in the middle of a game or something. And back then I would answer. And after a while, it was like, I'm not doing this anymore because I can't do anything about it. I'm a scorekeeper. know, I can't do anything. anyway, yeah, we have to put up those those barriers so we can do what's important. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's, that's, that reminds me of something that I'm working through right now. I'm about to break up with the email app on my phone because I am checking my emails during the time that I'm watching my toddler. And it's just, I feel like I'm going crazy. Like my mental, my mental toll is so heavy and having to think about all of these problems that, or not even problems, but just messages that are popping up throughout the day. And it's something where it's like, okay, I got to put that down. maybe this is something to consider for other folks as well in this day and age. We've got control over our devices. We can tell them whether or not we can be disturbed right now. We have those do not disturb settings. So you could set it to mom mode or dad mode. You can also there's a tool called Freedom and it's an app and it works on your phone and on your computer and you can tell it which websites you don't want access to during certain times. That's amazing. there are lots of things that can help you get that focus, but I absolutely do not check my email after work. And my clients know that if there is an emergency, they text me. Now, there are a lot of business owners, they love the texting with the clients. I am somebody who only allows the texting if there is an emergency. And if a client does text me, like I will have them like, I need this updated on my website. My reply is please send this to my email because that's where my tasks go. And whatever you send me in a text message is like not retained. Everything has to go on a list or it's not retained. That is how I also function. I am not a fan of the texting. There are like maybe three clients who we text back and forth because that's just the type of relationship that we have. Everybody else is like, look, and even with those clients, if they send me something really important that cannot be forgotten, it really does need to go into the inbox, the email inbox, because if it's in my text inbox, the texts just kind of disappear from my brain. They don't exist. yeah, it's where I'm messaging friends or, you know, my son or my husband and it's just not my workspace. So I appreciate it when, you know, something is hitting the fan and they really need some help, but it's not a good place for the regular communication for me. Other people? They love it. Whatever, you know, it might work for you, but I feel like that is a hard place to put the brakes on. It's really hard to turn off texting. It's easier to not check your email. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Same, same experience that I've had as well. Earlier you mentioned a complete disaster client or client interaction. What was that like? What ended up happening in a general way? And then how did you put the boundary on that? like revealing too much about it, they thought a decision I made on where to put their hosting was a bad decision. And instead of directing it to me, they CC'd a whole bunch of people. Like it was a very underhanded kind of, it wasn't filled with integrity, right? And so I kind of had to deal with somebody's complete disrespect and some of the people CC'd were part of my community. So, you know, in that instance, it's always best to... Reply in a very professional way without pointing fingers and just kind of taking it and I did that and then I sat down with a Google Doc and I wrote down everything that went wrong with the project and the interaction with the client and instead of making all the blame theirs, what could I have done to prevent this from happening? And so part of it was not listening to my intuition on the feeling I got when I first met with this person. So this person didn't make me feel good when I first met with them. And I think that we have to have a really good rapport, but also a mutual respect. And clearly, there was no respect for me. from this person. So that's what I sat down and wrote down and there were a bunch of procedural things that I needed to do differently as well. It was a one-off situation. Nothing like that has ever happened to me again, but I learned so much that even though it made me fuming mad, at the time and it was very, it was painful. It was a painful experience. I turned it around and made it something positive for me. And it's never happened again. So I kind of, kind of, it made me know to always listen to my intuition. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing about that. It's not easy when we have those disrespectful client interactions. this was years ago, right? And it still brings up like, oh God, that was terrible. But at the same time, you know, it was a great lesson. And I'm grateful that that person taught me that lesson because it's been incredibly helpful for me. And I have not had an experience at that level since. Now we all have in when you're a business owner, you're not going to have a hundred percent great experiences with all your clients. You might drop the ball. They might drop the ball. There could just be like, you know, you have to have a good rapport. And I tend to always I'm not somebody who sends a contract off and says sign it I have a meeting with the person to go over everything and that is like a big reveal for me so I'm a believer in the free consultation before somebody gets a proposal and a review the proposal and you get a lot of interaction and then you know you're starting off with just somebody who's going to be a client for a long time. have really strong retention of my clients and I think that that's part of the reason. That onboarding flow is so important. So you touched on what that looks like. Can you walk us through what your onboarding flow is? What does it look like A to Z from first receiving a lead to now you're working on a project for them? Right. So I'm in a B NI group, Business Networking International. I get a lot of referrals that way, and it's usually an email introduction. So I tend to do business with people that I know or people that know somebody I know. I like to stay in that realm. I'm not a designer who's just trying to get random people off the Internet. So I start off with a free consultation and it's either Zoom or on a phone call. I have an intake form that helps me determine if I'm a good fit. If they fill out my intake form and they're looking for a Wix designer, then I'm referring them to somebody else. So we go through that. If they're a good fit, then I work up a proposal. have a couple proposal templates. It still takes me about 25 minutes, half hour to work up a proposal because I want to look at everything they want done and it's very detailed. I try to put as much information as I can in the proposal so I don't have scope creep or expectations that aren't there. And then I send them that along with a contract. My contract is nine pages long. So that's another filter to make sure the person is serious and also it just covers all the bases because the internet is It's a scary place. You've got to have accessibility things in there and legal, all of that. So I'm sending them a lot. And I always say, before you sign anything, here's a link to schedule a 30 minute proposal review. So I'm putting a lot of time in ahead of time, but there have been a few times we got they got the proposal. We're going through it. and they didn't tell me exactly what they wanted. It was different and in that instance probably not the right fit, you know, but it's worth that investment to make sure you are matched well and then you can have a long-term relationship with that person. Yep. Yep. And I bet on the flip side of that, they are probably feeling more comfortable with you and they feel like they can trust you sooner because you are laying all of your cards out on the table and you're not afraid to answer questions and hold their hand through things. It's okay to invest that time upfront. and both of these interactions, it's less about me talking and more about me listening. on a free consultation, I'm not hitting them with all of my information. I'm like, tell me how I can help you. and then I just shut my mouth and listen. And that is what, brings the person out and you see their personality. Hmm? Yep, yep. I feel that in my chest in a warm, fuzzy way. I learned way back, the best sales isn't you pitching what you can do and how great you are and all about you, you, you, you, you. Instead, you are listening to the other party. What is it that they need? And then the cherry on top is, okay, you understand what it is that they need and you can honestly say yes or no. Yes, I can 100 % fulfill this person's needs and everybody's going to walk away happy. Or you know what? This just isn't a fit and that's okay. It's okay. And then because I do so much networking, I never leave a person without somebody that can help them. And I have gotten referrals from people that I didn't do their website, but I sent them to somebody that would help them. And they were so grateful that they gave me a referral to somebody else. So never leaving somebody empty handed is huge. And, and I think when we first started our businesses, at least when I did, I wanted to please everyone and say yes to every project and didn't do any of these things like vetting. And it was just like, you need you need this. You need that. Sure, I can do that. And it wasn't always the case that it was something I was confident doing. So I have, yeah, I've never been like really big into e-commerce. And now I have a web designer BFF who loves doing e-commerce. And I just refer all of that to her. It is fantastic. And you know, it just, makes me feel good. And I have clients that I've done their regular website and she's taken care of whatever e-commerce website they needed over time. And it's just so much better that way. Like focus on your strengths. And unless you're somebody who just constantly wants to learn on the job, don't say yes to something you're not sure about. Yes, yes, yes, yes. you know what I think I get about you is that you are not operating from a place of scarcity. You're operating from a place of abundance. You're trusting that if you say no to somebody or you say no to a quote unquote opportunity, that's not the end all be all. That's not the absolute end of that road. That just means that now you have time and energy and space for something else. uh I think being in a business group where I'm meeting every week and, B N I, it's the same agenda for every meeting. So as a member, you stand up and say your name, your business and what the perfect referral for you is. Now, I sometimes get a referral from inside the room, but I just think the act of speaking what you're looking for. attracts it to you. So yes, and I am so busy with my base work these days. Having recurring revenue changed my life and I didn't develop that until 2015. I started a care plan for WordPress business. And when you develop that recurring revenue, it gives you the freedom to pick your projects. Yes. my goodness. That was a game changer for my business as well. uh Pretty much the exact same thing. uh Developing some sort of a maintenance plan that is ongoing or whatever it was. Maybe it's ongoing social media posts. It depends on the person's business. Or if you're a graphic designer, could do uh social graphics in a package every month. Or just coming up with something that is a value that really helps your clients but also gives you not that one job at a time income is life-changing. Right, right. Ooh, that is such a good tip. I love that. I love that. Expanding your service offering so that you have an ongoing income. That is something that you can lean on and rely on every month. because the truth of business is that sometimes it's up and sometimes it's down and you just don't know what to expect if you don't have some sort of a foundation of ongoing revenue. Right, if you're just one project at a time all the time, then you're always worried about the next one. And there are ebbs and flows. mean, there's just naturally you and I were discussing it earlier. There's like a summer lull because people have things to do. And then by the time September rolls around, they're like, my gosh, I need to work on my marketing. And then everybody is piling in. And so it just helps you manage that up and down when you have something that's just going steady along the way. Yep, yep, absolutely. And another way that people can also fill in the gaps in their, maybe they have a seasonal business, is to figure out an offering that works specifically for that business. So for example, I have an e-commerce client and they have waterproof socks. Fantastic for the spring and summertime when people are tromping through rivers or they're out fishing in the warmer months. but not so important during the colder months. So he developed a glove, a waterproof glove that's great for the cooler months. And that was the way that he was able to fill in some of those gaps. Exactly, pivot. I think he could do quite well with waterproof socks in Seattle because that means that we could take out our garbage and work without shoes on. Anyway. yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's important as a business owner, look at your cycles, right? Your annual cycles and see where you can fill in some gaps. And also again, like we mentioned with the ongoing revenue, that can help build a nice thick foundation throughout your entire year. So it can be... think reflecting on things should be built into your day. Right? I mean, just having time to reflect on what happened that day. That's why I keep a daily work journal. have a template all set up in Google Docs and I fill it out every day. And I don't always fill out the end where I'm like, what went well today? But when I do, I learn something. And so whether, you know, your client that made a pivot, at some point he sat down and thought about that. And a lot of times as business owners, our day is all client work all day, all the time. And you need to block out time to work on you. Yeah. Ooh, that is such a good tip. Especially, especially as parents, we are juggling all of the things. So that, that self check in, that check in with our business, that check in with ourself, regrouping and seeing, okay, what is working well in business and in life? Where am I just not feeling as great? You know, a good tool that a life coach had shared with me years ago was the Wheel of Life. of, yeah, Wheel of Life is, heard of that. Like I haven't visited that in a long time, but I know that I've had an introduction to that somewhere in my business. Maybe it was a BNI meeting where somebody brought it up. So. Man, yeah, yeah, it's a really cool tool that you can adjust. Basically, the Wheel of Life, It's a big circle that is divided into segments all the way around. So picture spokes on a wheel, right? And every pie slice or every gap between the spokes is a different category of your life. So it could be your health, your finances, your career, et cetera, and you go all the way around. family. I remember this. Yeah, it's coming together. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And within the circle, it starts in the center, picture like a bullseye, and it goes all the way out to the outer diameter. And that is in 10 parts. So it's basically a scale of zero to 10, right? And you get to rate each of those segments. How am I feeling about this segment? And it can be revealing because you when you rate something lower on the scale, that is an opportunity to do what Cami does and pivot and say, you know what, what can I learn from this? How can I actually improve this this area? And of course, like those those parts of those different segments, those can be labeled however you'd like. So within your business, maybe it's clientele, maybe it's industry that you that you're working within. Maybe it's your billing practices, your marketing. You can fill that in specific for your business. So it's pretty cool practice. tool. I'm going to look that up because that could be a nice addition to what I'm already doing. You know, and you have to try things like that. Like maybe you do it once and you're like, you know, that didn't really help me too much. But sometimes it's a home run. And so anyway, you just kind of, you kind of have to spend time trying new things to help you maintain your sanity as your balancing your home and your family and your work life. Excellent, excellent way to wrap all this up into a neat little bow. Cami, thank you so much for your time today. Where can people find you if they have any questions or if they want to hire you for a WordPress website? Where are you at in the world? I'm, WebCami and you can find me at WebCami.com. I also have WebDesignerHabits.com. If you're a web designer and you want to get some good new habits for running your business, have a small Facebook group called WebCami Cafe. That's for web designers as well. If you put WebCami into Google or AI, you'll find me. So, and I'm happy to chat with anyone who just, needs an ear. Like as women, we all need to help each other. And I'm a networker. So, you know, if you want to chat, just reach out. Mm, preach sister. It's so important. Having our village is so important. So thank you for that. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it. I know our listeners appreciate it too. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It's been really fun.