How Failure and Rest Built An 8-Figure 3D Fashion Company (Sharon Lim, Chairwoman of Browzwear)

Sharon Lim is the Chairwoman (and former CEO) of Browzwear, a global 3D fashion technology company with 180 employees spread across APAC, the US, Europe, and the Middle East. Under her leadership, Browzwear has generated tens of millions in revenue, driven by a unique focus on “pulse” metrics and a culture of rest. Sharon has also founded a venture-building arm—investing in ESG businesses and pioneering AI innovation through Fashion AI Hub. In our conversation, we discuss:

• How she pivoted from B2C to B2B (and from near-bankruptcy to sustainability)
• Why she champions “pulse” metrics over revenue (and what that actually looks like)
• The importance of rest in a venture-backed, fast-scaling environment
• How Sharon embraces failure as part of personal and business growth
• Her approach to building a strong leadership team and handing over the reins
• Lessons learned on enterprise sales, open ecosystems, and sustainable growth
• Much more!

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Eric on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erictisme/
Sharon on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sharonlimyp/

Quick fire round:
 
Books:
1. How will you measure your life by Clayton M. Christensen: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13425570-how-will-you-measure-your-life
2. The Board and the CEO by Peter Greer: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35946208-the-board-and-the-ceo
3. Bible: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5883777-the-holy-bible

Movie:
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2872518/

Listen on:

• Youtube: https://youtu.be/ILkenL_AS1A
• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/episode/3wE8800oYIEnxlIqlnBSZs?si=he2Mxkp5Ske7_zeeGQsbGg
• Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/how-failure-and-rest-built-an-8-figure-3d/id1781364637?i=1000682725275

Chapters

• 0:00 Trailer
• 1:18 Introduction and Personal Identity
• 4:04 Big ideas: Metrics, Failure, and Mindset
• 11:21 Browzwear brief intro
• 14:15 Family business, entrepreneurship and losing money in Asian Financial Crisis
• 33:42 Acquiring Browzwear and stepping in as CEO
• 37:36 A decade of silent growth at Browzwear
• 46:09 Fundraising for expertise and next phase of growth
• 51:10 Philosophy of Growth and Leadership
• 55:53 Building a Culture of Rest and Clarity
• 1:25:10 A crossroad, new ventures and the future of fashion
• 1:30:13 Venture Building and Investment Strategies
• 1:36:08 Fashion AI Hub Think Tank and Future of Fashion
• 1:47:11 Reflections on entrepreneurship
• 1:58:10 Rapid fire round

Transcript

Sharon: 0:00

I literally woke up and I said, I can't believe this. In 24 hours or overnight you find out that the money that you attach a certain value to in your bank account all of a sudden has a very different value, if not no value to it. we never really fail in life. We just keep learning in life and we keep growing.

Eric: 0:20

How can founders identify business ideas regardless of any kind of market conditions

Sharon: 0:26

The first thing that came to mind when dot com burst was I called my mentor I said, there must be good things out of innovation in the junkyard. This is the right time to actually look for things.

Eric: 0:38

What convinced you to acquire the business

Sharon: 0:40

it really came as an opportunity from their VCs. I called the co founders. And I said, what do you guys think about coming back? when you took time to rest, technically you mitigate a lot more risks for the company. You're not reactive, you become more responsive. If companies start off with an exit in mind, you're not building anything that lasts.

1:00

hi, I'm Eric host of the soul and scale podcast, where we interview entrepreneurs, innovators, and pioneers to tell their stories for you to become a better business operator. If you'd like, please subscribe on YouTube, follow it in your favorite podcasting app. Or even leave a review as that would help the podcast tremendously. Today, our guest is Sharon Lim. Sharon is a venture builder, investor and advisor. She was a co-founder and CEO, and now the chair, woman of browser. A global fashion technology company Having raised 30 million USD with 180 employees with offices across APEC us. Europe, middle east. She's currently a partner at venture synergist and fashion AI hub. She mentors and invest in ESG entrepreneurs at beneficial returns Sharon is also the president of Singapore fashion console, and currently serves on the board of her church. In this episode, she shares how she survived the 1997 Asian financial crisis losing substantial amounts in her business; how she turned a struggling late stage startup into a global 3D fashion tech leader, how she built pulse" or unit economics beyond just revenue to fuel sustainable growth. How she created the culture of rest. Scaling tens of millions in revenue without burning out her team. How she embraced faith and reflection to overcome failure and find her true identity. And how she views the future of fashion and startups to build the next generation of ESG companies. I learned so much from her. And I hope you enjoyed this episode as much as I did.

Eric: 2:45

Thanks so much Sharon for coming down. Um, Thank

Sharon: 2:48

you, Eric.

Eric: 2:48

Sharon, you're a chairwoman of Browzwear, previously CEO for 10 years, you're currently an investor and mentor to ESG startups, president of Singapore Fashion Council, board member of a church. What is actually your preferred way of introducing yourself, and how do you view your identity.

Sharon: 3:07

Yeah, my name is Sharon, and I'm single, alright, in a sense in this world. But I always say that I found the best guy, alright, and that's Christ. So I'm kind of married to Christ. So everything else about me flows through this identity that I found in my faith. And that meaning and that purpose of developing, what my hands set out to do, whether it's businesses, and in ministries, it's really as a result of this identity. God builds with a lot of care and love, and that's how I do it too. So I'm learning from both my father. And my husband on how to take care of my father's business. So that's how I will introduce

Eric: 3:51

thanks. We're going to start with some big ideas you shared with me before this conversation, followed by your history and Browzwear, what you've been up to recently, some of the reflections, and a rapid fire round at the end. I'm going to start with the three topics when I reached out to you, to just give a broad overview of your philosophy of business. So the first one is on metrics, second one is on failure, and third are the mindsets that founders can take to overcome their failure. So on metrics, you've mentioned companies over focusing on financials. In fact, you didn't want me to mention revenues because founders are over focused on financials without developing a pulse. So what do you mean by pulse? what practical steps can founders take to develop this kind of pulse for their businesses beyond just sales and revenue figures?

Sharon: 4:39

Yeah. Actually what I meant by Pulse is having the right units of economics. Different business will have different units of economics, and depending on your models, you need to establish it, right? well over the years when I talked to so many different. Startups and all and some into the 10 year or eight years. I realized that they are only focuses on revenue. While I realized that revenue is important for every company, how company knows whether it's trending right or wrong is efficient and productive in terms of its financial resources and how it deploys them is really also coming from other metrics. For example, what is the cost of your acquisitions? I once talked to a company between their subscription model and their GMV and they found subscription more important than their GMV. But I said, technically your capital cost is actually in buying goods. So shouldn't that be your first priority and not your subscribers? And then when we look at churn, much as you can bring many people in, are you looking at how many people stay with you after they come in? So I found over time that people are not focusing on a more balanced, holistic view of their units of economics, instead of just focusing on Revenue recently another startup that's no longer a startup been around for almost 10 years. And they told me that the CEO explained why he literally burned through a lot of double digit millions, because he told me that the investors and all was just focused on revenue and sales. But of course we know by this last two, three years of tech winter, we know that it is the wrong thing to do. So I think This is what I mean by establishing a pulse. Every business must have a pulse of whether it's trending right or wrong, and therefore efficiency and productivity is very much important as well. different business model will have different pulse, but I think this is the thing to ask ourselves, how do I know whether my business is doing correct? It's going in the right direction. Is it sustainable? And so if you keep sustainability as an objective, meaning financial sustainability as an objective, then I think you will be able to establish a set of metrics beyond just revenue and expense. In my early days, I think I was also an in and out person, cashflow in and cash out person. But over time, I learned to look at the business very differently, especially when we pivot into subscription business. So you read and you learn a little bit. And then you have to pivot. So I feel that every company should think about what is a set of metrics that can help them to know whether they are trending in the right direction of what, especially of what they believe.

Eric: 7:37

So you need economics, there is retention as well, looking at churn

Sharon: 7:41

yes. yes, yes.

Eric: 7:42

very specific metrics to their own organization.

Sharon: 7:45

Yup.

Eric: 7:46

And the second question was on failure. So I think you've just mentioned pivots. You've also mentioned that failures can deeply affect founders. As you've seen startups fail in the past three years, what advice do you have for founders who are in the midst of growing through their failure,

Sharon: 8:04

Yeah, first, try to know that failure, there's no growth without learning, and there's no learning, without mistakes. If you start to internalize those mistakes, Only then you will feel like a failure. Failure is not a lot of time. I realized failures and it's not emotion. It's a fact, right? If something doesn't look right. what happened is that we internalize the mistake into our personal failures. the first thing I would say, please disassociate yourself. How you feel to what's on hand. Look at your mistakes squarely or try to be as objective as you can and take away any internal feelings that you may have over this. And take it from an angle of learning. If you take it from an angle of learning from your mistake, you would derive good things out of this. I shared with many entrepreneurs who have since pivoted or some even have stopped their business. when you see things objectively and it doesn't work, stop it, right? know that, from a year or two years ago, you would have already been a different person if you learn from it. And that difference that you have learned and you have grown out of this will help you in your next journey, you would have grown as a person and that's more important. So I would say continue to put yourself into a posture of learning and only through learning will there be growth, so if you look at it as a string, right, if you want to grow, you must learn. If you want to learn, it's unavoidable to have mistakes. So if this is a whole one by one, then you need to know how would you go through this, right? And not just focus on the end result of no growth means I'm a failure. No, it's not that. It's much better to take the time to look at where the no growth is. And in in a span of being an entrepreneur several times in my life and not even in entrepreneurship, even when I was in corporate, it's inevitable that there will be mistakes. But learn to hold it lightly, but learn to learn your lessons seriously.

Eric: 10:23

Yeah, that's really helpful. So it's really on dissociating your emotion with the facts and looking at it as a opportunity for personal growth. I think that's as a growth as a person, whether you enter an adventure or move on to

Sharon: 10:36

else. Correct. Correct. Yeah. Don't let it, don't let it cripple you, because I guess we never really fail in life. We just keep learning in life and we keep growing. And that's so much more positive and life giving into your other roles in life, right? I mean, I've seen entrepreneurs who are husbands, they are sons and daughters, they have other roles, friends and all. And so when they cannot lift themselves above their venture and see themselves as more important. Then I think they would have missed this, what is entrepreneurship about, so learn not to associate yourself with your venture.

Eric: 11:16

Yeah, thanks for sharing. in this chat we'll dive a lot deeper into some of these concepts you've shared. I'm just going to go into some of your personal history before you started Browzwear, which is a very successful company. And as most listeners wouldn't be very familiar with digital twin in fashion and 3D modeling. Could you just give a brief overview of Browzwear

Sharon: 11:38

So Browzwear was started as a company that has a very unique algorithm of being able to simulate cloth, which is a soft thing in 3D. All right, up until Browzwear came along you didn't really have an accurate simulation of cloth. You had animation simulation, meaning it looks like a cloth, but you don't really know exactly if you were to take a real physical cloth of a certain nature and really made a garment, it will come out like that. No, not actually. So we had, all kinds of 3D animation for that, but not anything that really simulates the real life environment. And out from that, you're very unique algorithm, which is patented. All right. then Browzwear develop software, to actually create, to allow designers, developers, Garmin apparel developers to actually develop their styles, instead of going back to making a physical sample. And in that, Browzwear really contributes to a lot of reduction in waste. In fact, we have a sustainability calculator that allows people to actually calculate how much they save in terms of water, carbon, simply not doing, until you're very sure, don't get something made. That's essentially our idea is. Use 3D as much as you can. And when you're very sure that you want something made, then you go make it, so, cause I'm not sure if but fashion it's the second industry next to oil and gas. That's a culprit too. the world's sustainability problem pollution and all. Yeah. It's the second industry. Imagine it's something so close to us. We all wear it every single day, and yet we are not conscious of how this industry actually works.

Eric: 13:33

We'll dive back into fashion. There are three moments I'm curious about before you joined Browzwear. First was your family business. Second one was a snack business that you started. And finally your time at Tommy Hilfiger before you entered Browzwear and became CEO. Because my wife is joining her family business soon. Starting with your family business in electronics manufacturing. You actually grew the business by 10 times over almost a decade. So, could you share a bit more on how you did that? What are some lessons for second, third time leaders coming into your business? organizations to grow the especially in today's climate where SMEs are typically struggling to digitalize finding successes.

Sharon: 14:16

So I joined the family business was started by my mom and then my dad took over after they separated. My dad continued to run the business and I joined the company first as a junior sales, person and then kind of work my way up. How did we grow the business together? I think what we really focus on was building good relationships with a lot of our customers. The thing that was always a tension was there was always this older way of working, my father's way of working and my uncle's versus the way we will come in and do things But I think one thing we all agreed on with my dad especially, was always take care of the customers and take care of the customers well. I can't say that as a junior, as I was very young coming into the business, I knew everything, but I found that my customers really taught me a lot. whenever there rejects and quality problem, my customers really took it under their wings to basically teach this young kid, How to plan better, how to get involved in manufacturing was really important and then how to do many of the back then, quite new philosophy of working like just in time and things like that. It was the start of those era and we really learn a lot from our clients. And as a result of this, we got rewarded as well as we learn. So I learned a lot of manufacturing techniques, production processes, quality sales and all over the years, I kind of just grew with the company into the various roles until leadership role. And then we added many more product line because with the customers happy with you, they give you more opportunities. And that's what we had. We had more opportunities. We grew client base and this was the days before the internet. Okay. So everything was pretty analog. All right. So human, like the relationship part was also very important. So getting our, bring our way up the food chain to be a strategic partner. Was where we headed our direction and that kind of worked out and worked out well for us because we were then rewarded with many more businesses diversified, products. So we went from everything from just electronics to even the packaging around the electronics, and then also subcontracting, so we started to grow both the subcontracting our own products, both simultaneously. And that's where we reach you. That 10 times growth.

Eric: 16:41

Wow.

Sharon: 16:42

Yeah.

Eric: 16:43

So after that, you went on to start your own snack business. I think this was one of a pivotal moment in your life. Could you share a bit more about this failure and how you grew through that as well?

Sharon: 16:55

Yeah, so part of, a big part of the reasons for leaving was when your family business is kind of your first job. There's always something that you feel, is there something else, right? So after my elder brother came back And took on more or less the leadership of the company. I felt that it was also an opportunity for Me after i've spent a decade in a manufacturing company and always been interested I guess on how retail works In manufacturing, you always get the lowest margin, it definitely drove a lot of efficiency mindset, but I looked at it. I said the retail looks quite interesting. And so with some opportunities from friends, I decided that I will go out and I'll do this retail business So it was actually in food retail business. So I took on the country franchise. for Indonesia in a very established brand in Singapore, which Singapore branding for this particular license was really good. So I took them and I went to Indonesia and why Indonesia is because of my family business, I spent seven, eight years in Indonesia. I felt very comfortable with, I knew the region well. So that's where I started. I think we were very successful right from the beginning. The bets were right. And so very quickly within less than a year, we already made decision to continue to expand and went from two. And then within a year, we were already planning the two other stalls. And that's when something unexpected happened, which is 1997 Asian financial crisis happened. And overnight Rupiahs went from 1 Sing 000 rupiahs to 1, 000 Singapore dollars to 15, 000 rupiahs overnight. No fault of yours. All right. So you may have the best business. All right. But when a country goes into an economic crisis like that, it is what it is. So even then I learned my lesson, which I share people as well. A very profound lesson for me then was money has no. Value at all. I literally woke up and I said, I can't believe this. I mean, like in 24 hours or overnight you find out that the money that you attach a certain value to in your bank account all of a sudden has a very different value, if not no value to it. That was a great lesson for me.'cause from there on, I think I, in the back of my mind and in everything that I do, I. kind of coined this term, money has no value until you see that the investment that you invested in people are really the only thing that I found has the greatest value in all money can invest in, right? It's really in

Eric: 19:49

true

Sharon: 19:50

Yeah. So much as it was a very tough time.

Eric: 19:53

How did you pull yourself out of that?

Sharon: 19:55

Yeah, it was really tough. I had two partners, there was a total of four of us. So two partners that literally ran I don't blame them. I mean, they decided not to put in their share of the money.

Eric: 20:06

So you put in a lot of,

Sharon: 20:08

Yeah, so it was me and then the other, the third guy, to be fair, he put in his share and he said I'm not putting in any more. Of course, who would want to put in anything anymore in

Eric: 20:18

So you're the majority shareholder, basically.

Sharon: 20:20

Well, not, it wasn't supposed to be like that. It was supposed to be the four of us equally. But, just because of this crisis, you also, Now, the truth is I don't blame anyone because I think that a crisis like that, all right, it's when people fight and every man for themselves, all right, it's not the wrong move as well. But that really thrown me into a very tough time. I really thank God for those one of my managers who's also a very close friend of mine came in with her then fiance to actually, and her then fiance was a really nice guy. And he just gave me money and he said I don't know how much this will be, but just take it and just continue to open the stores. We thought about closing the business, but when I look at the condition, the economic condition of Indonesia, and we had about 20 plus people back then, to me, it was really 20 plus families. And I knew that if I stopped the business, which was the easy thing to do. Then it's 20 plus people that, and 20 plus families that will be in trouble. It was almost impossible to find anything back then. There was bombings every day. The country was in a very bad shape. So we decided we will keep it running. We still have inventory to keep going. We had our principal licensees here in Singapore. It's very fair. Very ethical, and went beyond ethics to actually hedge Rupees, at their own cost, that was an amazing Blessing for us to keep going and actually we continued the business for 10

Eric: 21:59

years Wow

Sharon: 22:01

During which I joined, another company just to also keep the lights on and pay up all the inventory, pay up all the old bills and all that

Eric: 22:11

So you basically paid for the debt of

Sharon: 22:13

yes, but we kept it ongoing and then because it kept ongoing and business proof really well the Singapore principals told me that they were keen to go into the country themselves. And I said, I don't want to be a competitor. So why don't you just take me over? And, just take a break and do your own thing instead

Eric: 22:36

Could you just take a break and do your own thing instead of going to work? Or do you still need to continue working,

Sharon: 22:43

I went to, I left for Tomiho figure, I think in 1998 or 1999, I can't remember. And the reason was because things were so bad to keep the lights going. Someone has to go, at least one person had to go for a job, right? By then all my partner, original partners all left. And it was only this friend of mine who came in. She's Indonesian. And I asked her, you should just continue running it. We'll just take whatever we've been given. being hedged and all this. This will help us to keep the business going. She runs it. And then I'll go find a job. And it just so happened that the only job that came along was this job from Tommy Hilfiger here in Singapore. So I said, well, I've never been in fashion. But my friend who introduced me to the job told me it's pretty good. you understand production, you understand manufacturing. So this will not be very different. It's just that it's a bit of a low level job. I started cause they needed someone on a short term basis, And so I agreed simply because I was like, let's be practical about it. Even if I made very little, this is the only job that opens up. Let's take it first, finish it up.

Eric: 23:57

it was a contract job

Sharon: 23:58

Yeah.

Eric: 23:58

don't

Sharon: 23:58

Yeah. Very, nothing, and, but as a result of the willingness to take this, being very practical, taking it on, I learned, I started to learn about the fashion industry. And within a month they gave me a permanent role. All right. I've never rose in an industry so quickly as I did in

Eric: 24:17

in a month.

Sharon: 24:18

Not just because I got a full time after that, but also subsequent years. And then growing into various aspect of the industry, starting from production and then moving into. Development and then moving actually into Latin America, getting a job in Latin America that started as a product person. And then from a product person to establish the retail business for the company, and then going on to establish new lines for when Tommy Hilfiger was establishing many new licensees products and all being able to take it on and really see the whole era of licensing, retail, and international licensing and going all the way to Latin America, finally five and a half years I was there, it was a whirlwind journey, but one I really thoroughly enjoy a lot Because it gave me a very good end to end view. I ended as the general manager after three and a half years. Alright, God's grace, alright. And I had a very good I reported to the board, so I had a very good boss, and his family, that gave me many opportunities to grow. And that's actually what led me to Browzwear.

Eric: 25:34

Yeah, let's move on to joining and acquiring Browzwearr So after five years at tommy you figure you entered the world of entrepreneurship. Actually it was right when the dot com bubble burst I'm, just amazed because were you not burnt by past mistakes? Was there something that you understood about picking businesses that we can learn from so how can founders identify? business ideas regardless of any kind of market conditions

Sharon: 25:59

So when I worked for Tommy, my immediate boss was one of the founder of the company. His father in law, who is my mentor, who has since become my mentor. Would visit him and the family my. Boss would always tell me, do me a favor, go entertain my father in law. As a result of this, I became friends with a man who is a very seasoned investor and he would always be telling me about the different things that he's looked at, different businesses, and we would just discuss every time he came to visit. We will discuss tech, and tech was a very preeminent part of startup culture back then. he would show me many deals, we would talk about this, and I guess that's what piqued my interest tech back then. And of course the dot com buzz. But I, my instance, the first thing that came to mind when dot com burst was I called this man. He's my mentor today. I call him, his name is Debo. I called Debo and said, there must be good things out of innovation in the junkyard. Now that everyone treat as a junkyard. I'm sure in a junkyard, we will find things of value. All right, because I'm very sure not everything went to some crazy, lifestyle, but there were people really innovating from that. So maybe that would be when no one wants to look at this. All right. This is the right time to actually look for things. All right. I think he agreed as well, but he had other investment that basically rip more returns, but that kind of stuck to my mind. And I think very quickly after that, someone showed me a CD demo. Yes, back then it was still CDs, Of this company Browzwear and what it was doing. And because it was so related to what I was doing in Tommy Hilfiger. I could see where the potential is, Because I've been, I see the problems of the industry. I know what the technology can do. I'm intrigued though that they wanted to do virtual shopping. Meaning they went all the way into the front end. Bear in mind that this company started maybe two years after Amazon started. So 999. com burst. So they had a very far vision, but as a result of that vision of virtual shopping for clothes, then they went backwards to develop this algorithm. Right. I found that it was great because there were many backend. Things that could be done with it. So that, I think that stayed on my mind after I saw it. I'm like, let me try, let me test out my hypothesis of, and let me contact this guys. And that's kind of started the game. So

Eric: 28:42

they were focused on helping retailers create a virtual shopping experience back then. And you saw back end opportunities, right? So that's probably with the sourcing and things like that.

Sharon: 28:54

yeah. Product development. Designing product development.

Eric: 28:57

yeah.

Sharon: 28:59

really sorry about that. You were actually a reseller for And

Eric: 29:12

Amazed by that because you ended up using the wealth that you amassed from that to buy over the business. Any lessons for you know, building when you're building your own reseller business, what were you doing there? I think more

Sharon: 29:26

or what were you doing? Being in manufacturing before and having this wealth of operations experience, but also selling experience, I think that's what I started. I wasn't keen to do a tech and all, I don't have a tech background, right? So better for me to partner with others. And if I contacted them, if they will let me sell took a bit of a hurdle because tech guys were quite arrogant back then,

Eric: 29:59

what was your discipline actually, like in terms of studies? Well, did you study, did you go to university

Sharon: 30:04

After my parents divorced, so, financial was always a bit of a problem.

Eric: 30:08

problem. But it was more of a business background that you

Sharon: 30:10

Yeah, but I am a fourth generation. Business entrepreneur from, the good thing, I always say my parents all my family did was never to leave us with wealth, but to leave us with a lot of experience. Because at dinner time, at mealtime, a lot of things that was discussed was always about business, was always about work, was always about how they, both my parents sees. the world, through a business, through an entrepreneur's lens, opportunities and all. So I think I kind of caught that, from them. And the stories, of course, of my grandmother, how she also through the war time had to do her own business to put food on the table and all that. So those were all things that my parents left for me, my family left. And not really money because then you think about how to do it. Right. So back to distributorship, it was what I could do. All right. It's what I understood of a industry. So I had the industry landscape in mind. I looked at a solution and I understood where it can fit in. So I had a stronger go to market for a product, maybe as compared to the founders. Who were more, maybe visionary in the way that they think how the world would change,

Eric: 31:31

so what's the go to market way that you convince the owners to let you sell,

Sharon: 31:36

Yeah, by then they had gone through the dot com burst, so they also had to go drastic resizing of the company to became quite small. And that was when I showed up. So I guess they gave me a bit, a very little hard time, but they were pretty much open to whomever would help them sell, right? I explained how I would do it, the go to market, while they focus on the retailers and brands. I focus on the supply chain, in Asia, which is closer to me. So I moved from Latin America, I came back and I started to do this.

Eric: 32:10

Do you have to manage a product team to develop the products that you wanted

Sharon: 32:14

or no, I

Eric: 32:14

or no,

Sharon: 32:15

only had to work with them. So I work with the Israeli founders and I just, as I told them there were times where I had to invest. There were times where I had to invest in my ideas, meaning I'll give you an example. I'll push them for things, which I think are really important. And then they'll be like, okay, if you really believe so much in this and we don't, all right why don't you give us money? All right. And then after that, we'll give you a higher distributor commission for maybe two years so that you could earn back that if you really believe this will help you sell. And that's what I did. So I, in a way I invested, but without the equity part

Eric: 32:51

to

Sharon: 32:52

to get things done, right?

Eric: 32:53

like a typical product development life cycle.

Sharon: 32:56

Yeah.

Eric: 32:58

convincing your product team to build what you want. But the sales, you're actually paying them to do it.

Sharon: 33:02

So I had to pay for the things I want done and then make sure that I really sold it. So I think in that way, I learned to connect also with the tech guys and be what I call a bridge between the industry and the product people. Because if you fail to understand the industry well enough, then likely you will not be developing what the industry really need. And by then they really pivoted since the dot com burst. Stopped a lot of any front end web Selling and all that. These guys really went backwards and they were willing to, put in their time to do development back end

Eric: 33:42

Taking a step back from Front end

Sharon: 33:43

Front end and moving. Yeah

Eric: 33:45

So moving away from retail into the back end production development production. Wow, that's really interesting. What were the key factors that convinced you to acquire the business and how do you prepare for the transition?

Sharon: 33:56

I think it was an opportunity I always thought that it would be interesting but I also didn't want to get into the mess with a cap table and all that. I almost did it a few years before I actually did it, but then stopped myself from doing it. And then it really came as an opportunity from their VCs. So they called me and I had an opportunity to relook at this and I decided it. Back then that we grew, I also have a bit of upper hand, right? When you are 80 percent of someone's sales. All right. I also have an upper hand to walk out and go and bring the business elsewhere. So they also acknowledge that and they saw, the years that I've put in my commitment, to the company. And halfway through actually, even before that in 2006, 2007, even the founders left, I was in it for a longer time and I think the VCs pretty much figured it out.

Eric: 34:55

right? You were the most lao jiao

Sharon: 34:58

yeah. Correct. Correct. Yeah. So they, so then I just continue on, but I found that maybe this call or this opportunity was something I should look at and why not. So it's funny because when I went to Israel for the meeting in the morning, I actually went to the competitors who knew I was coming down. And so they offered me a deal, and then in the afternoon I went to Browzwear and I decided I'll take this. I may not know, but we'll start somewhere. And I called my partners, the co founders. And I said, what do you guys think about coming back? I'll invest in this thing. I'll acquire it. Just come back, yeah, this is after all, this is your baby, right? Some people have one single strength or something. And then once they left, the hurts or things are so deep. It's very hard for them to restart something else, right? So I think my request was more along the line of saying, here, if you guys want to come back, this is what you have. And then we can restart this and relook at this again, which is a very good thing that companies take a step back and at their business So they agreed, they came back, and we restarted this with me as the investor, the sales, and them picking up the product and the tech again.

Eric: 36:19

Wow. So and then they actually came back, and That was probably more, not because they felt like doing other things, but because of some other internal issues.

Sharon: 36:29

But I think that they came back because this was going to be a private company. They just didn't believe in the whole VC, much as they, they went into another two VC ventures, but I think sometimes the VC model doesn't, it's not geared to help a company really grow.

Eric: 36:46

So you already saw that the VC model was pushing them out.

Sharon: 36:50

Yeah. So I saw what happened, right? But I don't want to be single minded about this because you know when partnership fails or when things like that happens, there are always many reasons, right? And I felt that it wasn't just VCs. It was a combination of dynamics, relationship dynamics that happened, right? But VC being the people with money tend to even if their voice Is very soft. They tend to be louder because people tend to have more reverence for their resource. Right. That's the truth. Yeah. Alright,

Eric: 37:21

And what stage were they at when you acquired them?

Sharon: 37:23

They were already, I would say they, by then I was called them, consider them late stage shop because the VCs were also, like the funds were also ending and all that. Those were all opportunities that I found Right. To take this on.

Eric: 37:36

Those were all opportunities that I found, right, to take this on. 21, there wasn't much news actually about Browzwearr because it was just private.

Sharon: 37:55

Yeah, it was it was a great, it was, it was great, la. I mean,

Eric: 37:58

Can you just, yeah, how was it, maybe just to get a sneak peek into those almost a decade. How was it like? How did it grow?

Sharon: 38:06

I think firstly was re looking at the whole landscape of what digital transformation, is about for the industry, right? So we found that what was really important, a lot of our customers, were and will continue to be enterprise grade customers. So we need to also up our game to be an enterprise solution provider. So it drew some, a lot of whiteboarding of what does it mean. And then we put our head to developing ourself to be that. Actually, though, we were quite quiet on the news because we put a lot of time into tech, put a lot of time into selling. Not very good at marketing because we also had very limited. We're not putting power behind a lot of marketing. Why? I think it's also pacing ourselves in the industry. All right. So what we brought to the industry required the industry to have much change. All right, and change is Not the easiest. So over time we actually built up many change management methodology, and strategy for our customers. And today, where you see Browzwear is we took something that was an algorithm and now we wrapped it around collaboration, Allowing our customers to collaborate with their supply chain and themselves over an idea, a design, and also there are many more pieces today, one of the piece that we, in fact, we invested ourself into building was our open platform. So developing API is very early. In 2012, 2013, building the ecosystems of partnerships of other tech companies, bring other tech companies into the fashion world. Because I remember a tech guy told me once, he said that I don't know how you do it, Because fashion is like the death bait for all technology and I laugh about it. I said no it's not You know I think it's but it's not going to take off the way You would imagine hyper growth and all but is there business there is right? so One of the first things that we did was build a lot of eco system partnership and made ourself Open to make sure that our customers have interoperability of systems, files and all that, we also launch things like with our algorithm, keeping it open so that people and even in fact, developing a machine to be able to accurately measure materials, something that was proprietary to us. We just put it out for the market. And then kept the file format that even competitors can use some of the datas to actually improve, if they want to take the data, But we continue to take the data to improve our simulation and all, but all along also building, within our collaboration platform, better ways for people to connect better around a product and connect better with each other as well. that was a very good move because still today in the market, we're the most open company in this space.

Eric: 41:17

space. Wow. It's both interoperability and I think creating a lot of transparency for the Whole back end of fashion. Yes. For the industry.

Sharon: 41:27

That's important

Eric: 41:28

And by open, you mean sort of an open source

Sharon: 41:31

We put in like, for example, material, there are many different parts that we get involved in, right? Because we're in collaboration, we're in product creation. So keeping some of the things like material file formats, where datas are open also where they can take on and do things with it.

Eric: 41:46

Wow. That's really interesting. I'm just going to dive into some of the key aspects of building startups and maybe weave in some of your stories and some of the lessons around that. So things around hiring, culture, fundraising, product. Metrics, expansion and growth. So we'll start with hiring. You've managed a transition coming in as CEO. You've tried out a co CEO model and now you've stepped into a chairwoman role. Could you walk me through some lessons on leadership and building a solid leadership team?

Sharon: 42:22

Yeah First, I think as a CEO of a company, you have a tremendous influence of how a company can be built up, right? And we can pace ourselves, all right? prior to our one and only fundraising, we never fundraise after I acquired a company. We basically scale and grew our company much as we were seemingly silent. But those were all our growth years. We really grew and we were sustainable. And that was always our plan was getting our units of economics right on how we grow. So as a CEO, I feel that, you grow at your own pace. If you are pressured to grow, sometimes what I've heard from other startups, the pressure to grow, make them actually very bad, not great leaders. Alright, because they were just listening to certain voices and they were not looking at the business holistically. So for us, since we pace ourself in our growth, we earn from our sales, organic fundraising, I call it. And pace ourself and invest into our own growth. I think those were good years. And during COVID I actually had this co CEO role with one of my partner. And that was because we don't know how COVID would end. If you remember the pandemic, the news of death, the news of millions of death, was quite horrible. And to build continuity in my mind at that time was if I want to, and all of a sudden the world closed down. So I wasn't able to make my trips to all the other operations around the world. By then we were in Europe. We were in the U. S., Israel, Singapore and Hong Kong. All of a sudden, when the world shut down, I was not able to visit and spend time in all these places. So I just thought about it at that time. I spoke to my partner and I said, just in case, I don't know how the pandemic, I may die. You may die. maybe out of the four founders, the two of us should come out as co CEO leading the region and holding hands. to keep everyone together because trying to do it remotely is a huge thing. And that's what we did. one of the lessons we also learned through this co CEO role was how do you make decisions? my investor also asked me back then, how do you make co decision? I said, technically we are called co CEOs, but the truth is my role has always been go to market. My partner's role is always in product and tech. So that's how we hold decisions together, finance was under me go to market was under me and he took care of product and all. So we try to hold this in this way, where is our level of domain expertise? Yeah. And then of course, subsequently after that as COVID really, I mean, we continue to grow. The company has not stopped growing. we're very fortunate that we've seen a growth, but scaling up a company after we fund raise also because we grew so much in COVID. We were one of those fortunate companies. Everyone had a very bad COVID, but for us, we had a very bad COVID seemingly, but we ended the year 50 percent higher than the year before. even though we only had six months of billing. And that was, to me, that was a big sign that the market really, was really changing and the growth could come very quickly. But I didn't feel that we have the right infrastructure systems and all that in place. So part of the fundraising was actually to start us on this,

Eric: 46:05

And actually the co CEO, was that before or after the fundraise?

Sharon: 46:09

No, that was during Covid, the fundraise only came in 2021. We look at different people but'cause the company's always been sustainable. So basically we made our own money. We had our own profit. So we weren't really, not, wasn't money that we were looking for, it was the expertise to move to the next milestone.

Eric: 46:29

of

Sharon: 46:30

million, I don't, we asked ourselves that question. does moving, like three times look like for us. Right. And when we cannot answer some of those questions, all right. We felt as well that we needed to bring in someone else. So this is also what and this also something that's really important. I feel when companies talk about scaling up. I think we were really intentional about why we want to scale up. Right. Firstly, we, on a basis that there were things we didn't know. What does it look like? And after past 50 million, all right, what happens past 50 million? And we realized that we can't answer some of those questions ourself.

Eric: 47:11

50 million?

Sharon: 47:12

US dollars

Eric: 47:13

revenue

Sharon: 47:14

revenue. All right. I mean, we were already sustainable, so sustainability is not a problem for us. but what does it mean? For us at 50 million. And what does it mean at a hundred? I don't think we could even answer that. We had all our domain expertise around building a venture, but what goes beyond that? I don't think we knew. So we decided what kind of partnership would it be? We don't really want dumb money. Meaning money wasn't what we needed. What we needed were people who have experience and who could help us to see.

47:46

Hey, thanks so much for sticking around. I hope you're enjoying the episode so far. I just wanted to take a break to invite you, to join my WhatsApp community for you to give any feedback and also meet like-minded entrepreneurs. Or you could also subscribe to my sub stack where I post takeaways from my podcasts. As well as my readings and learnings around business and entrepreneurship. Once again, I hope you've enjoyed this episode so far. Please leave a comment, a like a review S that would be super helpful, or even share it with your friends. Thanks. And I hope you enjoy the rest of the show.

Eric: 48:30

How long were you fundraising for?

Sharon: 48:31

Actually, we were not really fundraising. That's our method was this. All right. We said, we'll create a simple deck and then we talked about it. we said, every month we'll meet one or two different companies. We'll show them a deck. We'll ask a lot of questions around how to grow. and what goes beyond 50. And we'll listen to their answers. And it makes sense. We like them. We'll go for another conversation. If we don't, we'll go on to next month. We'll repeat the same thing. I think we only met 11 people because we took our own sweet time, right? 11 people, you divide by one or two a month, it really took us a year to do it. but we were going through it kind of doing our due diligence, or finding the right partner. We're not looking for funds. We were really looking for right partnership. Radiant Capital that finally we picked them, they were the smallest out of the lot. But I found that in terms of the way that they thought and building private equity, very specialized in B2B SaaS, the ideas that they gave us really proved that they were good partners, that they could teach us the things we don't know. And I think that kind of expertise is really what you should be looking for.

Eric: 49:41

what kind of expertise did they have that you felt like you could learn from?

Sharon: 49:45

so one of the things that they did, when they came into the company was relooking at a lot of our units of metrics from marketing, down to sales. Down to operations. Just sharing with us though. They were not a major shareholder of the company, but they really shared a lot of this and how they built a readiness company was they brought in people from the industry. So they brought in expertise, you are not talking to financial analysts here, you are really talking to people who were in, Salesforce, companies, there were all the expertise that they brought in terms of HR, go to market. Ops actually came from the industry themself. That was quite unique. And in fact, I would say that then today, or in the last few years, what I did on the side with my investment company was also to build this kind of expertise up small expertise that can then go in to help other founders. And I thought that was very powerful. But the idea was not about the biggest fund. The idea was people who could teach us and tell us things we didn't know about ourselves. And so we went on this journey along with them.

Eric: 51:00

Yeah. And you raised 35 million USD in 2021. So Yeah, say

Sharon: 51:07

of the money is still

Eric: 51:08

of money is still around. What is your philosophy around growth? Because I know you think really deeply about business. Was it just growth for more money? Probably not. I think you think a lot more than just money. So what was your reason for this kind of expansion?

Sharon: 51:26

Yeah, so I think that there are two main things itself. One is, of course, making sure that our customers would always get from us the things that were really important, and that we could always keep leading our customers into streamlining their process. Because when our customers can streamline their process, it actually has a huge impact on sustainability. And so that's always one of our main goals, right, is to keep helping them because the more they change the way that they work. from physical to a digital environment, the less waste there would be. And we continue on in this journey. So that's one thing that we really continue to want to do. The second thing for me was about our younger leadership. By then, prior to fundraising, we were already about 110 people before fundraising. And we had a lot of young leaders who join us, believed in us and grew with us. And I felt that it was really important for them to be learning the next stage. What does it mean to be 50? What does it mean to be a hundred? I don't, if I don't even have the answers, I think it's my job to find the answers. And to give them the chance to do that. So the other thing was about continuity beyond the founders. I say this quite a bit, to different people who hear me. I say you're a founder only in your first 24 hours. After that, your role is what your role is. If it's a CEO, your role is as a CEO. Being a founder doesn't give you special powers. It gives you insights because you make more mistakes than others. It gives you very good insight, but it shouldn't give you any extra privileges And we should be thinking about our younger leaders and how they move up the rank. And how to help them to grow in it. So I think the second main reason was really about that. And then what did I think one of the things that I learned was also how to hold this scaling up process. Also understanding that the people who first join you. when you were entrepreneuring and you could try different things, you gotta break different things and all, as you get bigger, you don't break as much things without more consequences. And some people may not exactly be one to do that, but remain amicable with them. All right. And just realize that it is what it is to, once you start on a path To grow. All right, then you need to be thinking about a larger audience, those who wants to, and then for those who do not want to, please make sure that at least to a point in time that they are kind of rewarded, both my partners actually also decided that this growing, much before growing, it was like really exciting, but through the time it became very laborious, And they also decided maybe this is not it, right? But the exit was also rewarding, and you can only have a rewarding exit, if you were a sustainable company, right? If you get your fundamentals, right? So I think where we are today is also to continue to build those fundamentals and to build it right as chair for the board. It's also my role to continue to work with the new leaders or the younger leaders who have come out. All right. And the new leaders to help them to understand the industry, but there's very good professional people that we've also brought in and to continue to help them to grow. And to continue to unify between this old and new. I keep telling, my team as well, that when people come in, it's just one company. It's not they're old and I'm new. No, it's where should we be going? And let's focus on that. So a person's growth, when a company grow, a person's individual growth is also very important. I also encourage people to keep the posture of humility to continue to learn and to grow. And we will make some mistakes, but if the fundamentals are right, it's okay. can cushion those mistakes.

Eric: 55:36

So it sounds like your reason for growth is really led by two things. One is the customers serving them better,

Sharon: 55:43

The industry.

Eric: 55:44

serving them well. And of course for your people for employees and for leaders to grow and for the organization to continue growing as well. I wanted to move on to culture. So one of the things that you are quite well known for in digital mission ventures, which is where I met you as well. Is that despite running a venture backed businesses, you also built a culture of rest. So do you mind sharing a bit more about What kind of culture? you build and how you manage to continue making it such a high performing company at the same time

Sharon: 56:19

Yeah. I think firstly, people are people. We are not robots. as an entrepreneur growing for over 20 years there's been many times where you fall into the myth of, never taking a rest, working harder than everyone else, especially in my family business. My dad taught me, that as a member of the family, you need to work three times harder than others. So you come with all of this type of mindset. I've been there before, but when a person is not rested, you don't have clarity because you're often too tired to do the right thing and to make the right decision. So actually, I found that when you took time to rest, you mitigate a lot more risks for the company. You're not reactive, you become more responsive.

Eric: 57:04

all right,

Sharon: 57:05

So I actually learned this many years ago. One time I took my whole company to a silent retreat. Yes, they almost killed me. Everyone goes to Bali and go some, go on Japan and go Bali. Yes, I take everyone and I go to a silent

Eric: 57:19

What about the off sites?

Sharon: 57:21

Yeah. And then they go on a silent retreat. But I learned during that silent retreat everybody went in very angst, and they were all kind of faith, right? I told them it's not about, it's not about faith. It's about resting,

Eric: 57:35

were they religious? Or is it a mix of, I mean,

Sharon: 57:38

It's actually more, a bit more it is coming from a faith background, but it was actually I would say it's really toned down because we have people who are from different faiths, but the idea was to, how do you build a rest for the team? And I could tell already in the time of growing, everybody was really biting each other and really reacting more than that. And I could tell that was tough. So we took time off and we did this. And then I learned from Genesis, that the rhythm that got started in the book of Genesis in a Bible was actually not work and rest. It was actually, rest and work. So every new creation start with actually at night and then it goes day. So it went from night and day. And that was very intriguing for me. To see that, that even God determined that you worked from rest, not work to rest, as most people do, right? Work very hard, and then go on holiday, and then come back, work very hard, and look forward. But it's actually to incultivate that. So, that's why I really try to emphasize that part of my reason for growth into all the other regions, going to the U. S., going to Europe, and all that, was also to try to prevent my people from doing, like, late shifts, too much time zones and everything else. We really work hard to do that as well. We're going through a bit of that right now. So we're also thinking about how to do this a lot better, but was also to try to cultivate that. If people are not rested, it's very hard to get them to make right decision and to response rightly to their peers. Cause we will have problems at work. It's inevitable. You will have a customer who is nasty. You will have, people who get off on the wrong side of bed,

Eric: 59:23

How do you deal with conflict within employees and, people not talking to each other or not working with each other.

Sharon: 59:30

I think, everyone has their scope of work. I tell people, do whatever it takes to perform your scope of work unless you decide you don't want to do it anymore. Some people ask me some questions like, recently I was in Sri Lanka and then someone asked me, so what does it mean to have, be nice and then be performing as well? I said, but they are not two separate things. They're actually one and the same thing. I think when we are clear to give people a scope of what their work is, that's respecting them. Give them clarity. And then if they sign up for it, at least they know clearly their set of pulses or metrics, that they have to work towards. And then if they do sign up for it, we help them to perform. Or we help them achieve within the scope. And that's giving people clarity of what they are signing up

Eric: 1:00:20

for.

Sharon: 1:00:21

A lot of time, I feel that companies that don't set this up well, what happens is actually that people step over each other. It wasn't intentional, but they step over each other. But if you set this clearly, you can start off the conversation with some clarity in objectives, and then of course after that, it can come into other things, right? About what's for you at this point in time in your life and all those other more personal objectives of a person, because there's no slavery in work, right? You're not forced to work. Not in this day and age, right? You work because you feel that you're fitted to it. My basic belief is this, when a person is where they are meant to be, they will flourish. But if they are in a job that's not meant for them, then you will see that they may not flourish. But most people go into a job thinking that it's about pay, thinking it's about a title and all that, and later when they get the dissatisfaction, it's easy to just, push the blame to something else, but really look, I rather encourage people to really look. If you take away the pay, if you take away all those external factor and really look at, is this still the job that you really can feel kind of rejuvenated, creative every day when you wake up to do, I think you would have found the right place. You found yourself in the right job, in the right role. And I advocate that.

Eric: 1:01:43

Do you think that it's possible for everyone to feel rejuvenated in

Sharon: 1:01:48

Yes, I think that there will be times when we all go through hard times, right? We also have gone through many hard economic crisis in this world. There will be very hard times. But I think we can always make allowance for people. We can always make allowance and we can always grow together. All right. I have one of the guys who joined me after I acquired the company is a very talented developer and all. And he left, but he's a very, it's a close friend. He's a good friend. So he just told me, it's like, yeah, some setup is just not for me. Some just, when it's just too rigid, it's just not for me. But I know as well that you cannot grow without some level of structure. All right. So he understands it. He said, I tried to grow with a company, but I really struggle. I struggle against some of those things. Right. And I said, it's not for me. Right. So I think this is, it's inevitable. All right. I wish it was some another way, but this is also where I tell, I also share with companies as well. Pace your growth, because if you pace your growth and you evolve your organization structure along the way, you will not have so much of this problem. I sat at a DMV group once a few years ago, maybe two years ago, three years ago, and someone said that they were actually told to hire fast and fire fast.

Eric: 1:03:13

But What

Sharon: 1:03:16

that was maybe three years ago. And I said, but fundamentally

Eric: 1:03:20

Yeah.

Sharon: 1:03:21

you don't retain the best. It takes time for a person to come to work and to grow. It really does take time. Right. So, I think one of the things is in our bid to grow, our excitement to actually grow. These are maybe some of the mistakes we will learn along the way, but the best things I guess is to continue to pace yourself. And don't compare yourself to someone else. Yeah.

Eric: 1:03:47

helpful. So you created a culture of rest so that people can be more proactive rather than reactive to situations, more responsive than reactive. And also in terms of reducing conflicts, really creating clear roles and allowing your employees to thrive in whatever role that they're in. I think that's really quite relatable because I joined consulting because I. wanted to learn more about building companies and then realizing after a year that maybe it's not really building But more of optimizing really small processes of huge organizations, which is quite meaningful as well but always missing the entrepreneurial drive and Spirit in the startup space. I think that's always a brave at least Seems like a very fulfilling space to be in.

Sharon: 1:04:33

in. You Eric, I told you about the silent retreat I brought everyone to, right? Where they had to give up their phones and put it into a box and they only allowed the phone, I think 30 minutes a day. All right. There's so many of them. And then of course there was some spiritual direction sessions and all that. So many of them took the three days to

Eric: 1:04:51

to sleep.

Sharon: 1:04:52

which I, which was very jarring for me as well, because it means that they were tired. It's just listening. It's okay. It's okay. It's not about doing things. It's just being about being someone. Right. And that was that was a clear indicator to me. I wasn't doing so well in that.

Eric: 1:05:08

a clear indicator to me. I so well in that. Do you have any suggestions for founders who are building product or product people on your process of building successful products? I think right now, Browzwearr has a huge range of products from platforms and solutions. I'm guessing it started somewhere and grew into this big array of products. But I guess, what was the windy path to, to get there? What are some learnings for building products? Yeah, so,

Sharon: 1:05:41

first I'll start off by saying this there's, it's not that when you built it, they will come. It's not really like that. It's instead, let them come, and then you start to build. because we were not fundraised in our early days, we had to pace ourselves. So we were always having communications with our customers on how we intend to build, what the roadmap looked like. we actually had annual conversations with our customers about what we look on the year ahead, especially the strategic ones to try to understand what they thought about it. that was one input from the customers, right? And then we will start building. So along the way, we tested, we built, and, we were also aware that we also had some kind of a final measure of success, whether we should continue to do things, as we were not fund raised, we spent our dollars more wisely. And we always set aside money for this type of changes. If we decided to take new bets, because we grew from one product into several, then of course we basically had to take our bets as well. But we also start to ask ourselves what is kind of like the returns, not just financials, but in terms of also how we sell and all that. What are some of the returns that we can say would be successful for us to continue to do? So that does take time We have over the years pulled products that we thought were great ideas, you know Obviously not so great ideas when people don't want to pay for it. So just put it at the site, And continue to build the ones that customers feel that has also got very good value for them We are known to be people who take kind of the lead In the industry and how we see the industry as well. There are many things that we did quite pioneering, you know I think our customers thank God they were really on board with us But when you are a pioneer, it means that you don't know what you don't know. so you learn And as long as you feel that it's making sense, people are finding the values and how you will find that people find a value is when they're willing to put sales behind, or they're willing to give you a check for it, right? Cause if they're not willing to give you a check for it, obviously you're not giving them high enough values. So. Over the time, we certainly did a lot of this. I told you that earlier story, even when I was a distributor, that was exactly how my partner did that to me as well. I wasn't his partner at that time. you

Eric: 1:08:05

had to pay

Sharon: 1:08:05

had to pay for things that I feel is important. Right. And so you have to be a lot more diligent in that. But stay close to your always stay close to the customers help your customers to see what you are seeing Even if it's a little bit, way out meaning a few years out ahead Why do you see it like that and continue to engage? That conversation with the customers it does help because ultimately we don't want to be creating products For the sake of creating a product. We want to be creating products that really brings value and change to people I'm so convinced by Browzwear, and I'm glad we are, where we are, It's I think it was 2006 and 2007 in Hong Kong, so I had to, I sold to this large sportswear brand. I wouldn't say who, all right, but yeah, maybe the world's largest sportswear brand, and it's just this small product, in design and developing, all right. After less than two months, I noticed that some of the initial users who were the Selected proof of value, initial users.

Eric: 1:09:07

the fashion designers, is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Sharon: 1:09:08

this person was telling me that she was going home at five o'clock.

Eric: 1:09:11

PM

Sharon: 1:09:12

right. Cause compared to endless overtime.

Eric: 1:09:15

Oh.

Sharon: 1:09:15

And that to me was my best validation that I brought value to people

Eric: 1:09:22

I think how you view entrepreneurship and products is a way to bless people. And this is one clear way you are really helping someone to go home on

Sharon: 1:09:30

Yeah. And I, that was, I mean, we made a good sale from that company, but I think why this story stick with me is wow, this can actually happen.

Eric: 1:09:40

interesting. Yeah that's amazing. The thing about capitalism is that, I think one of the philosophers said that we'll be working less today, but capitalism has created a structure where people are working even harder than today, even though we have such efficiency today. Yet, I think you managed to kind of push back on that as well. No, I think

Sharon: 1:09:59

it wasn't about pushing back. Maybe it's how we benchmark ourselves to others, right? I think when you're not push to grow, It's hard to grow when you haven't figured things out, but I found that many people haven't figured a lot of things out and they're pushed to grow. So this made it very hard for them. I recently had lunch with this lady who's 81. still running her business, I wanted to meet her, so I got some banks to actually arrange for me to meet this lady. I just thoroughly enjoyed the conversation with her. She still runs a very nice, profitable business. But when she talks about it, she tells me about how she's just so happy to, have people that's been with her. And they're still, there with her, she's seen their children grow up and all that. And it's just a nice thing, so I, when I heard her, I said, wow, I have a great role model, But of course, in the tech world, we have other things that we have to battle, right? The digital world is a fast world, But I think that you will never be faulted for trying to always do things a little better.

Eric: 1:11:14

So on back to building products, I think you just mentioned to focus on validating demand before building it. So there's this idea of product led growth versus sales led growth. what kind of businesses do you think each of these would be more applicable to

Sharon: 1:11:29

yeah,

Eric: 1:11:29

compared to the other

Sharon: 1:11:30

So if your pricing okay. Of your product itself. I would say as a tech company, if you're pricing a product itself, it's kind of low and you start off with the product LED growth. But what I have found over time is that even product lab growth companies in the world have had to, in order to grow, continue to grow, have had to go into the sales lab model, meaning a bit more white glove because the companies that they found themselves at the end of the day selling to are enterprise. And when you move into the enterprise space. Outside of product, kind of a product led go to market. Once you move into an enterprise space and you become a key software in a enterprise space, I think you companies should think about how to move themselves into a sales la meaning you have to give customers a bit of the white glove and all, but it does not make sense to do it when your pricing model is small. Meaning if you come out with I don't know, 75 product, a month, a subscription product or 50 subscription product. Does it make sense for you to actually go down the sales lab with a big sales team and, handling your customers with customer service and all that actually it's not. Right?'cause your product's very different. There are other ways. So there are other enablers that you have to build for your customers to learn your product, but you cannot expect that to actually happen. But if you are$50, a$75 or a hundred dollars product, but you are selling a hundred thousand, a license or a 10,000 license into an enterprise, guess what? You have to be sales led. So it's not either or, I would say it depends on where you are in the scale of things and where you are at the stages of your sale. But what I have found is companies that scale and grow really do need to have a hybrid. Yeah, but if you are selling 50, 75, 10 license, and all that, don't go down the, you cannot afford to have a sales team, you just cannot afford to do that.

Eric: 1:13:40

do that. Yeah, it's very interesting because especially for sales led companies, sometimes I think The tendency is to be complacent and not to make a nice product for your customers. That's why you have some enterprise software like Oracle my, or like my leaf application platforms, which just look terrible, right?

Sharon: 1:13:58

but then the thing is that then they will always have to they would, but there are always competitors outside. I think companies should not regardless of how big a company is today generally I would say the world has more options of software. They have options, right? And so to stay in the game, goes back to the same thing again. Please bring value to people. If you don't bring value to the industry and to people, you don't stand for what is of value to the industry, then there's no point having

Eric: 1:14:28

think that's why Combinator had a request for startups talking about new enterprise resource programs or new enterprise software just because there's so much incumbents who are doing things the same way and so much room for innovation there as well. Yeah, but maybe just moving on. There was market expansion within Browzwear. I think especially after the fundraise, but could you talk a bit more about before that as well?

Sharon: 1:14:54

talk a bit more about

Eric: 1:15:00

How do you prioritize different markets and enter them?

Sharon: 1:15:03

some lessons, how do you prioritise different markets and enter them? Hong Kong Middle East way before, we sold to, I think today we sold maybe 170 countries all around the world. So we've always had, we have always had incoming. Leads, but at some point I think after the acquisition in maybe two, three years, as we have larger customers, we found it important to be near the customers as well. So going to some of the key markets and started developing. the idea was always if you are not in the region Where the customers is it's hard to service the customers well All right, so we At all of this way before even our fundraising

Eric: 1:15:55

Wow.

Sharon: 1:15:56

Yeah, so collectively I told people until covid collectively In a year, I only spent two months in singapore and 10 months on the road Wow. Yeah, it was it was a very hard time, But okla, I rested in a different time zone,

Eric: 1:16:11

But it

Sharon: 1:16:12

was a lot of making sure that we, spend time in the region where we are. With our teams and all.

Eric: 1:16:18

did you decide which markets to prioritize and enter? Was it by some outside in market analysis, or?

Sharon: 1:16:25

At first we had some incoming. So for us in the industry, you look at the brands and retailers and supply chain and where they were. Asia was always our base, so that's where we covered a lot of our supply chain already. so when we move into other regions, we were looking for different segments of customers within the industry. So we went first to the US simply because it's easier because they are mono English, right? But they are complicated in terms of regulations between different states and also you really do need time to do that. And that's why it was each market penetration, I say, it's always a very founder led thing. Simply that what that means is I pick up my back and I go to the country and I start we're all with another two of my team. That's what we actually did. We just went there spend time, talk to the customers. And that also told us over time that go to market actually region to region. you also have to tweak your message a little bit because what, One message in Asia that may make sense, in the U. S., because slightly different segment of people, but still within the industry, may not make as much sense. So you always have to find where that message positioning in. Also, localization is really important. It's not just language.

Eric: 1:17:42

What were some tweaks between different markets you had to do?

Sharon: 1:17:45

So, for example, transformation became a big thing for us after we went to the US where we realized that the, firstly, not just the size of the corporate, where you really feel it's quite one thing to know and quite one thing to be there and to actually understand. how large a corporation can be, right? And so when they are trying to connect in with supply chain or what does it look like? So those were the early days where we really had to start building up platforms, collaboration platforms and all, but wouldn't technically have accelerated if we were not there. Looking at how a large enterprise did it. I think among, I'm quite, I'm not quite sure right now, but I am very sure that we were the first ISO, for our among all our competitors. And the reason was just simply because we were dealing with such large companies.

Eric: 1:18:36

and ISO standards, right?

Sharon: 1:18:38

we're dealing with such large companies who insist on either using Azure for one and then Amazon who are anti Amazon. And I had to, we had to build all that out. And these are very enterprise very specific, right? So we actually had to build some of this to suit our different customers as well.

Eric: 1:18:57

Would that kind of be a consulting model in the early days of like really just helping each company build what they need?

Sharon: 1:19:04

we are not a development house, but we Shared always with our customer what the roadmap would look like. Okay. But the word collaboration itself can morph itself into many different ways of how you develop a product, right? Your database infrastructure, right? Your SSO, your security infrastructure, just saying collaboration is such a big word, but building this up totally with the customers of what are the key pieces that are necessary is important for us. All right. And I think just being in the market, hearing our customers really did help us to build up some of those pieces a lot better

Eric: 1:19:44

So for market expansion you kind of went where your customers were and then you tweaked your messages to, towards

Sharon: 1:19:50

also understood what was really important in each of the region and brought it back to product and started building our infrastructure very differently.

Eric: 1:20:00

right?

Sharon: 1:20:01

So transformation was a very big word. For the, let's say for the West, these were things that we also had to learn to understand, what does transformation means then when you bring it all into the landscape of Browzwear, right? And then start to work with the customers for it. Yeah.

Eric: 1:20:18

Yeah. Moving into ecosystem building and growth and marketing. I think ecosystem was one of those that was quite important in building a really fantastic product. So, can you share how you approach partnerships, how you approach ecosystems to build growth and innovation in Browzwearr?

Sharon: 1:20:36

Right from the start, we felt also that we cannot be everything to everyone. All right? And we will never, no matter how much resource you put into a company, you'll never be the one all one for all. It would never be a better way to do it would actually be to partner. Partner with other people who are also keen on the same market. They may come with different technology, but if they are keen to come into the fashion industry, which seriously needs a lot of help. All right, and we will really advocate for digital transformation for the industry. So we were very keen to bring technology partner from different industries, all right,

Eric: 1:21:14

So even something like fabrics can have multiple softwares running behind

Sharon: 1:21:18

rendering, right.

Eric: 1:21:19

Rendering a 3D image.

Sharon: 1:21:21

Rendering a 3d image into live this days is more gen AI now, and also extension of product, right. Taking the product. from Browzwear, the output from Browzwear to go into digital cataloging, digital merchandising, taking our outputs and maybe going into further rendering for, really high end stuff, right. Using lifelike avatars, that came into the picture, metaverse, all this, all product extension.

Eric: 1:21:47

you just partner up and create an

Sharon: 1:21:48

correct. So you can see both for product, extension and then also for product enhancements. One thing that was very important was to make sure that we are not a blocker to our customers, right? That they, when they use us, that they are not worried that we'll keep the ecosystem close. But our ecosystem will be open that they can continue to explore that it can continue to work with others. I think that's really important for us.

Eric: 1:22:15

that's really interesting. So Ecosystems really building, upon your own product suite and also improvements

Sharon: 1:22:22

that was a decision we made in 2012 after I acquired the company. And when we started white boarding of what things look like, we decided that it was really important. We cannot be everything to everyone, but we can help.

Eric: 1:22:40

Maybe what were some big bets or huge pivots or even failures that you had to learn from?

Sharon: 1:22:46

I don't think that we, maybe because of the way we built, all right, maybe the very consultative, as I mentioned, right, we are very consultative with our clients or strategic, especially strategic clients itself. Though we place bets, I don't think that the bets were big that we had big failures also because we were never developing in the silo. We were never in our little caves thinking about things. We always talk to people about it. And I think that's good experience for all my partners as well. And so while we did that, were there things that we had to stop doing? Yeah, there was. But we always told ourselves when we go down a certain path, we always had some metrics, right. Of what would success look like in this. All right, and we put what we all agree to put money behind it We always knew that if the metrics of success doesn't make sense, then we could always pull it back So there wasn't no there's no emotional attachment in a way

Eric: 1:23:49

It's how you view failure as well.

Sharon: 1:23:50

Yeah, that's it is right it all learnings And I believe that in entrepreneurship as you build a venture it's all about learning Why because the world is changing so quickly Even when you build a house today, 10 years later, high chance you will have to rebuild or redo your house a little bit again. Why? Simply because climate change is happening, right? If you look at renewable energy, if you look at HDB in Singapore, the housing development, If you look at a lot of the upgrading, thinking ahead of time, now you see lifts put into different places. Aging population, right? Next thing you start to see as all the sensors came by, you start to see upgrading in your utilities to be more dynamic sensors. Next thing you start to see is renewable energy. So that's a really helpful approach, just

Eric: 1:24:53

So that's a really helpful approach, just to not make huge, uncalculated bets, but more of looking at the feedback from the ground and building from there and taking each, looking at your metrics and being honest to yourself, whether you should continue or not taking it too hard on yourself. We're just moving into some of the things you've been up to, some of the ventures and future of fashion even. What made you decide to step down as CEO and what have you been spending most of your time on?

Sharon: 1:25:20

So, I think stepping down was I felt that it was after a spiritual retreat that I did. And then I came across this crossroads. It was actually in MacRitchie, Singapore, right? That's the strange thing. Yeah, literally a bit of a crossroads and I've never even wondered off this path in MacRitchie before. It's a very small, it's a very small lane. All right, dirt road. All right, on the left was the SICC golf club. On the right was the whole, McRitchie and nature and everything else. I mean, like it was the whole rain forest and everything on this path itself. I had like the perfectly manicured lawns of the country club. And then on my right was the whole wild McRitchie rain forest lake, And I was looking at both of it and I felt that I was led to a crossroads.

Eric: 1:26:16

In your life as well.

Sharon: 1:26:18

And in my life as well. And I felt that there is always a place where in the golf course, right on the manicured lawns, every bump every hole, everything has a purpose. It's a game. It's a lab thing, right? So everything has a purpose. But on the other hand, in the wild rainforest, of McRitchie and all, Life themes in it as well, right? You don't know how many lives is in Matt Ritchie. Like under the water, above the water in the, you can just imagine the entire ecosystem of that. And when I reached there, when I reached that path, I thought that was kind of a pivoting moment for me. I could keep that skilled growth, all right, of where everything has a purpose, go to market, sales enabling, Roadmaps, all that has a purpose, on the other hand, I also have the wild I wouldn't say on the opportunities on the wild side of entrepreneurship and all that they're all trying to solve problems. So I found myself at that, where I have it on my left on my right. I gathered from there that, if I turn my time to also help those or journey with others in the wild. It could also be, it will also be very fulfilling because what I've come through is I've taken, like come through the wall, what seemed like the wall in the early days, not knowing where you end and all. And then lives, that's come in contact with and all that, and then somehow built and scale. And then now it's about distilling the science of, what worked and all that. Right. And then kind of like that. perfectly that country club kind of manicured lawns and all that where everything has a purpose. Are many others who are also in that world, right? So then I think that was my spiritual retreat, I walked away thinking that, maybe this is what I'm also supposed to do, give time to that others journeying along that my Ritchie kind of wellness wilderness. And that's something that if I can give time to, it will also help like kind of shorten the journey for everyone else and maybe lighten the journey for them. So that was my premise. The second thing, of course, is also when my mom is aging, so it's very much also around taking care of her. Because I think it's my father passed away about 200 days ago, so it's also taking time off to Egypt parents, Especially when I spend so little of my early years. All right, with family and with them. So that was also my focus. And I think third was also to let the company. If I will not step down, meaning if I will hold on, cannot let go, then how will others come up or see that they have a chance to come up? Right? So that is my third, reasons for doing that. So after that's when I made a decision. As I told you earlier on, there are things that I know I don't know, and therefore we have to. Bring people who knows and work along with them. So I'm happy to do that and to continue this learning. I think some my managers taught me a lot of things. Half the things that I think I've learned is over the years of scaling the company, all because the managers came in, people, different people came in and taught us, right? So I think I'm still on that. The posture is still the same on learning. I'm also. taking this time to journey with others through their wilderness, and hopefully be able to help them half their journey, if not make it shorter and make it lighter.

Eric: 1:30:13

And you do that through two vehicles. One is a venture arm and another one is a fashion tank.

Sharon: 1:30:20

tank. Yeah. So I do that through, actually, I would say that part of one of them is through the fashion AI team And then the other is through venture synergies. An investment, but also a venture building a company,

Eric: 1:30:34

So as a venture building, how is it different from just investing?

Sharon: 1:30:37

So I don't invest without getting my hands dirty. So I tell people in advance, I'm not going to meddle. But I think the things that needs to be built up, so generally what we do is we do a bit of Strategy first we look at the business. We help the founders to actually see their business foc. I don't charge for that We do that and then later on if we can come to certain agreements they realize what they can do themselves go ahead and do it themselves But if they realize that along the way, they would rather have us come in also for investment and to help them to grow Then we're happy too We look at it and if we think that it's okay, we go in and help them to do that well. So some of the investments are in debt financing, and then we give them some strategies that they work on growing themselves. Some of it is in equity.

Eric: 1:31:26

themselves. Some of it is in equity. Because sometimes,

Sharon: 1:31:33

Because sometimes I don't want it to be attached to an investment because then it seems quite self serving. Okay. Especially when I feel that certain companies can really help themselves out of this. They just hit a snag and not look at things a little clearly, but technically they can get out of the snag themselves. All So if they can, and they just need a little bit of help, it's better for us to help them in this way. At the end of the day, when you go to heaven, a friend of mine said, you're not even going to bring your slippers up. there.

Eric: 1:32:02

just leave,

Sharon: 1:32:02

Sometimes the conflict of interest is there, so I'd rather not.

Eric: 1:32:07

you started this with your sister, did you get any other investors LPs? No. It's

Sharon: 1:32:13

No? Because it's hard to, like I said, it's hard to help No, I wouldn't say it's hard to help people to see this, but we wanted to do it also because I never thought that we would Do this as a fun and then I have to go through it. And I also felt that most investors starts off with what's my return. And I have a very set of different set of returns.

Eric: 1:32:37

What's your returns?

Sharon: 1:32:38

My returns would be to make sure my greatest returns would be when all this company grows, right? And when they grow, I'm happy for this companies to be a dividend paying company. Cause if you are sustainable, that's exactly what you can do. You can pay dividends. All right. You may not be a public listed fortune 500 company, but if you know how to run a company like fundamentally great fundamentals that gives dividends, it's okay. So if I can help companies to grow this way, I'm also okay. But some investors are looking for quick, growth and all that. So I rather not. Do that because then it's also misaligned and some companies will grow at its own pace. Not everyone will be a hyper growth company. That's very important to understand depending on the industry that you are in, there's a different stage and some companies would just have a steady growth, and some companies will have a bit of more of a hyper, not everyone will be exactly the same. All I've seen a lot in the investment world is one size fit

Eric: 1:33:40

all. Yeah. And

Sharon: 1:33:42

that's not right. So I know that's how LP are being sold, and I'd rather not go there. I take an approach very similar to I think what I've experienced from Radiant. All right. I'll bring expertise into companies and help them. So, the things that I've learned as we are considered late stage are things that I think I can bring to earlier stage growth companies and then help them, as I said, half the mistake, hopefully, and half their journey, or, half their angst.

Eric: 1:34:15

Oh, that's amazing that you are running this with your sister.

Sharon: 1:34:19

my sis is full time in BrowzwearWire, so she doesn't run this. She just gives me Her full authority to let me do whatever I feel is right. But I also have some associate, some people who joined me as full time, uh, go to market experts, operations, experts, tech experts, cause then you can loan help to the, this companies as well. I hope others have this kind of mandate. I think this is what helping others grow sustainably actually can look like.

Eric: 1:34:46

Yeah, and you're not bound by, Investor pressure to, Spare a certain amount of money.

Sharon: 1:34:52

I think you need to be aligned to do

Eric: 1:34:54

this What's a time horizon?

Sharon: 1:34:57

As I said, If companies start off with an exit in mind, the problem is then you're not building anything that lasts. Yeah. So go back a few and just keep thinking about what provides value because real growth comes when you're providing something of value. You will not be thinking about providing anything of value if you're thinking about getting

Eric: 1:35:19

out. All right.

Sharon: 1:35:21

So you'll continue your MVP forever. And that's not the right way to build a company. That's not the right way to grow as well.

Eric: 1:35:29

Wow. Thanks for that.

1:35:32

Hi there once again. Thanks for listening to this episode so far, we are almost nearing the end, but I wanted to remind you to comment like subscribe review or even share it with your friends and your family who might find this interesting once again, If you'd like, feel free to subscribe to my sub stack, where I post newsletters on podcasts insights as well as business reads and join the WhatsApp community, where you can give me feedback and speak to like-minded individuals as well. Thanks. And let's get back to the show.

Eric: 1:36:08

Moving on to what you've seen in your fashion think tank fashion

Sharon: 1:36:14

hub.

Eric: 1:36:15

What breakthroughs do you hope to see in the next maybe five to ten years or maybe any other time horizons you're looking at when it comes to fashion or even startups?

Sharon: 1:36:26

No. Last night I watched this Netflix series called Buy Now, I'm not sure if you've watched it, but Please do. And it talks about fashion being, second most politiced industry The truth is, the fashion industry has been walking kind of on a limp. Either being very unsustainable in its way of growth. overproducing was a way instead of doing things better and supply chain, aligning it with front end demands. Most companies have gone into overproducing. And then wasting. As a way of coping with the ups and downs of demands. this basically an impact our climate. This has an impact on our environment. And this is what we've seen fashion does. So, on one side I have Browzwear, and the team will continue to do its great job. In convincing people, to go digital as much as possible until you know what you want to do and not waste. And on the other hand, the technology of AI can really bring much power and impact to the way people just align demand and supply. And in fact, align supply to production, align production to people input. There's so much that ML. A substream of AI can do that. People are not looking at it. So why I didn't start off with coming up with a product or anything else like that. I think I take a little bit from the Browzwearr history of building communities. All right. And then bring a message, making people first aware of how powerful this tool or this technology can be, and then how to strategize into that change for themselves. So I feel that we need to do something today and it's actually we need to do something 20 years ago and I'm still on that journey. I actually took a step back and ask myself, do I actually want to do more for the industry? And I found that, Hey, if you found something and you have not the problem is still there. Just continue to work at it, so with AI and developing a more holistic approach,

Eric: 1:38:36

Two problems is what I hope to achieve from fashion AI health. So that's really coming up with solutions to reduce any sort of waste in fashion and also aligning demand and production. Would there be any other startups or deems that you hope to see emerge from the next generation? Yeah. Yeah. I do hope that many more

Sharon: 1:38:57

Because AI is so powerful and the fashion industry is more digitized than it was 20 years ago when I started. So that means that we technically sit on the fundamentals needed to make very good decisions. All right, the industry sits on this and with the help of AI, it can. So I do hope that there will be, I am hopeful that there will be many startups in this area that can provide solutions. But first, that bridge needs to be built where the industry actually knows instead of fear

Eric: 1:39:29

of fear, what

Sharon: 1:39:30

what AI can bring to

Eric: 1:39:31

them. What are the key bottlenecks to achieving some of these breakthroughs? Would that be education, which is what you're doing now,

Sharon: 1:39:38

Yeah, I think both, The developing a right strategy, all right, comes when you know, and most people don't know. So most people go into ai thinking that it's a tool. It's somehow a tool, but it's not a tool. it's a computing, it's a tech that allows you to build around it. So I felt that for, and for the industry change management is needed first. So I felt that a strategy into developing and then having success into a methodology that gives you success in quick time is really needed rather than to say that there is a magical tool out there. Take the pill and you will solve the problem. It just doesn't work like that. It takes the work of the whole industry to come in and actually start solving some of this problem, providing the data that's needed to ML to solve some of this problem, right? It's data. And if everybody's keeping it to themselves, it also doesn't really help, so it'll take a little bit of time. But AI is so strong right now. I think most. Senior level executives are doing some things, something with chat, GBT and all that to actually understand what it can bring to the organization. So I hope that some of those user experience at a high level and at a managerial level can then start to spark some initiatives and see that they are actually much closer than they think that they are. You don't have to wait for a tech company to come around because AI works on data and data is already there for most companies and how do they quickly build this, show some results. So, the guy who's heading this in Fashion AI, Bhaskar, has been doing this for 17 years of his life, leading very large billion dollar companies into this, which is why he and I have been friends for a long time as well. Which is why I told him first about the problems of fashion and then coaxed him into coming here to solve the problem.

Eric: 1:41:39

Wow, that's amazing. what other technologies are you most excited about Actually, and maybe to take a step back, even digital twin is actually something still quite

Sharon: 1:41:49

nascent.

Eric: 1:41:50

even though you've been doing it. 20 years because in the Gartner hype cycle is actually just the innovation trigger. I find that quite amazing because You've already been working on it for 20 years yet. It still requires five to ten years for it to even pass So what does that future look like?

Sharon: 1:42:08

the future looks like we are just scratching the surface. So it goes much deeper than that, which means that we still have a lot of problems. We still have a lot to work on. So I'm glad for that.

Eric: 1:42:17

but

Sharon: 1:42:18

Again, it's about different companies also coming in to look at the business very differently. And we have seen it in new models that are coming out where companies are solving some of the problems of overproduction and all that very differently as well. Of course, some comes in and breaks as they solve one problem and it break three problems. And this is just a journey that we all have to go on. The industry have to go on. But what I have also seen is large companies grew so much faster In the last 10 years when they take a very different approach to selling, take a very different approach to their supply chain. They've grown into large companies so quickly that I think the incumbents are also surprised. So let's hope that this becomes a trigger for doing things differently for the industry as well.

Eric: 1:43:08

well. I was reading a McKinsey report. I think today it's about a few billion market size for digital twin in supply chain, but it's expected to go even above a hundred billion by 2033. I just found that number quite mind boggling

Sharon: 1:43:26

Give you a number, population growth, is the last 10 years is maybe pretty good. Less, something less than two billion, but yet our, the export numbers for the number of apparel is over a hundred billion. So your population growth is less than two billion. And then your whole clothes that you produce is a hundred billion more than a slightly above a hundred billion. How does that even equate? So this is a equation. that we need to solve and there are ways to solve it. AI is just one very powerful technology can help this equation to solve this equation.

Eric: 1:44:08

That's amazing. I think one interesting I've seen people pitching, you softwares and retailers and stuff like that. But I think you've discovered the opportunity. That's brilliant. Lying more in the back end. Hopefully one day it comes to us

Sharon: 1:44:23

actually, for us, I told you that when Browzwear, before I acquired it, started, they started from the consumer front end, right, of virtual shopping and all. The truth is, The world has gone into internet buying e commerce and all that are prevalent today. but there is one policy on returns that actually do not justify startups from taking place in things like virtual fitting room and all. When you have a policy like returns, why would people need a better experience? Returns are for many reasons beyond just fitting or styling.

Eric: 1:45:06

try it for fun.

Sharon: 1:45:07

Yes, for so many reasons. So how do you, as long as this policy remains, it is a stumbling block for innovation. So sometimes when we look at developing solutions, also look around at why are behaviors the way they are? Right. Some of it is encouraged by just very bad policies.

Eric: 1:45:28

They just serve the policies that serve the customer as well, but it doesn't serve the environment, I

Sharon: 1:45:32

guess. Yeah. That's why you really have to watch this buy now series that Netflix created.

Eric: 1:45:38

Just one last thing on venture building, what frameworks, I know you invest, you try to invest in ESG companies. So what kind of frameworks do you see for companies to start as ESG or move into ESG?

Sharon: 1:45:51

I think all companies one way or the other are ESG companies. it's ESG is a liver. I look at it as liver of impacts, right? And as if your company, for example, if your company comes in without any impact on ESG, the truth is you won't even be able, just be. Pure regulations alone that's oncoming, you wouldn't even be able to survive. Okay. So having companies that have ESG impact, all right, which you must justify is basically also good business opportunity. and I think this is the way the world must and needs to grow to be sustainable. Because we cannot keep doing what we know break things already. For example, plastics, I still don't understand why there are not enough innovation. While there may be many innovation, there are not enough adopters at scale. And that is many reasons. But we need that. We need that because we know it's already affecting our environment. We know that it's already affecting it. And, we need to take the measures to solve it. Yeah. So regulations are in place from Europe, and hopefully likely into unregulated zones, you will find that regulations will have its impact

Eric: 1:47:12

Moving into some of your reflections from your very exciting journey, are there any common themes when it comes to what helped you grow the most

Sharon: 1:47:20

I do read. Alright, so reading is something that I make sure that I do. Alright, so I do read, because I feel that expands my mindset. People. My Jewish mentor, Debo, told me before, never eat lunch alone. Okay, now what he really meant was, you never know what will come out of a conversation. So continue to meet with people, alright, and hear others out. Alright. But all of this, I think, comes when you put yourself in a posture of a learner. Alright, be curious. A learner is curious, and only with this curiosity, in the right posture itself, I think you would learn. And with learning, you will grow.

Eric: 1:48:05

How do you find personal motivation when things get tough? And how does faith kind of tie into this as well?

Sharon: 1:48:13

I don't think I would have made it through every day. if I didn't have faith in infinitely wise God So since my journey is very tight to what I feel is where is leading me and so therefore in everything Good or bad I run to him because I feel that I am finite But the God that I'm following is infinite.

Eric: 1:48:38

And

Sharon: 1:48:38

a lot of time in the Bible, it says, I will be the one to guide you. I will be the one to lead you to profit. I will be the one to teach you to walk. the number of verses that tells us that, should help at least the people of the Christian faith run back to him and not to think that we actually know. So I actually, maybe because I start from a premise that I don't it tends to help me to take steps, some steps back and start to learn, start to see, and then not to be too hard on myself through the learning process.

Eric: 1:49:12

And so how you see it is you basically will get things wrong by default.

Sharon: 1:49:19

when I don't get it wrong by, when I don't get it wrong, that's that's grace. Yeah. But. I think entrepreneur care is really important. it's also to be very realistic about when is the right time for entrepreneurship. I came into entrepreneurship when I had my roof covered, right? Because I was not a person that was very materialistic and all that. Once my roof was covered, it was a bit of a liberty for me to go and seek out new things. All right. So no loans, no, nothing for me to worry about. Then I could go and figure it. And that was pretty much something I got when I was in my thirties, early thirties. I got it already, right? Paid off all my debts and everything else that I could look at. So that's important. All right. And so the whole entrepreneur care is also very important. Sometimes if you. are not in a right time in your life, meaning you have a lot of commitments and all that. All right. You may feel that entrepreneurial itch, but also Care of

Eric: 1:50:18

care of

Sharon: 1:50:18

all your other roles. And if all the other roles doesn't allow you to have that freedom to pursue, right. better not to do it because the road will be so much learning and all that. And you'll be along with you for some families, for some loved ones and all. And sometimes that's not necessary. All right. I believe in this, what God meant for us. Somehow he will bring it in the right time. All right. But I think the last 20 plus years have brought people into the whole startup scene. Entrepreneur, venture building scene. for the wrong reasons. I want to get rich. It was very much attached to a lack of identity. the need to look good, the need to say that I'm a startup entrepreneur. Eric, when I first started, if you're an entrepreneur, instead of having a big corporate job, technically, it wasn't a very glamorous thing. Okay. But somehow in the last 15 years, It has become a sign of success. And I'm saying put that aside because to be an entrepreneur and to build something does take a lot. If you're in it for the wrong reason, you're not going to have what it takes to actually see this through.

Eric: 1:51:33

I think so many people people who just graduated, a lot of them are hating their jobs and thinking of how to start their own thing, get freedom, But I wonder how I know that, that the pain of starting a business is often so, so, so much that you really need a strong reason and passion

Sharon: 1:51:51

for it. I had the benefit of working in a family business for a number of years. I had the benefit of working for others. And developing companies and all that for others. Then coming up to do it myself. So I feel as well and that actually the right thing to do is go into a job for a number of years and learn. Because it will save you a lot, and also teach you how to build a better business. Some startup entrepreneurs that I speak to actually, I was surprised. Because I think in my generation, no one would ever thought about doing that. that didn't even have any work experience and that have just gone head on. And so even missing out on the basics of management, right. And they've gone big and that doesn't serve them, what I hear is, well, I didn't like my job. I didn't like people telling me what to do. And I'm thinking to myself, what makes you think this if that's not what you like, trust me, don't come into this because it's going to be a way harder role. if there's no humility to learn from when you're being paid to do your job and you're being paid to learn, you won't even do it. What makes you think it's going to be any easier when you're not paid to do So I, that would be my advice.

Eric: 1:53:09

Other than business, how do you think you've grown as a person through entrepreneurship? I

Sharon: 1:53:18

whether or not the business succeed and all. I know that I am a very different person today where I was, 20 years ago. And I have the business to thank for good times, bad times. You learn from it, so I feel that this is my greatest takeaway actually from my entrepreneurship journey is my personal growth as a person. It's not the business. It's actually my personal growth. Yeah. So I'm definitely less of a, less of a hot headed, thing that I could make things work, all the time, I'm less of a hustler. I'm less of a, all those things that people may glamorize entrepreneurship for, and that as a, so getting my chips, off my shoulders and being rounded off has actually been my, yeah the things I've gone through in venture building and I'm thankful for that. I am thankful for. Being the person that I am today. And I know that as I continue on this journey, I think I'll continue to learn and to grow as a person. try to detach yourself from your enterprise or from whatever you're building. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn't. You and your enterprise are two separate. It doesn't determine who you are, but if you learn something from it, Then you would have grown personally, and therefore that would actually be a great return of investment already.

Eric: 1:54:48

I think it's such a human tendency to attach identities to things in every stage of our lives, like from being a student to attaching your identity to grades and

Sharon: 1:55:00

I think attaching to roles, right? That's essentially what you're saying. It's because we attach our identity to the different roles. But in life, we will have many different roles. But actually the many different roles doesn't make us who we are. It's actually who we are that actually makes the different roles. when Queen Elizabeth, the late Queen Elizabeth passed away, I saw some documentary. of her taking over quite by accident. She never thought she'd be the one to do it, but she took over after her father passed away and she had to take it over. After the coronation, I remembered from that documentary where she said, and God helped her. me to perform the roles that I'm called to perform. She went through a time where the commonwealth was all breaking down. This idea of commonwealth was not colonialism was almost towards the end. And then what comes out of this? And she did her role because of who she is. And who is she? She was a princess. and also a woman of faith. Alright. So taking her identity, no one's gonna take her identity as a princess away. To literally groom as a princess to be a queen. Alright. To play that role. To then take on all the changes that the, the British Kingdom, basically face, right? But it comes from her knowing who she is first and who is the one helping her. Who you are and who you attach yourself. For me, it's who I am. I believe that my identity is as a daughter of God, of the Most High God. And He is wise, He is infinitely wise, and He will guide me because He promised that. And out of that identity of being His daughter, I will then perform all the other roles that He has given to me. But I will perform them

Eric: 1:56:53

as

Sharon: 1:56:53

He will for me to perform, right? Out of it comes my security, but not because of the roles.

Eric: 1:56:59

Wow, that's amazing how much of your success is due to luck or God and how much is it due to yourself?

Sharon: 1:57:05

Yeah, I just you pretty much know

Eric: 1:57:06

you pretty much know what the answer is. And maybe, do you think these skills come naturally or you learn

Sharon: 1:57:14

you will learn, there are many things that I know today as a result of going through the last, I would call it three decades, are things that you learn and you are definitely a very different person from when I first started. And good things have happened. Bad things have also happened and we live in a world where the very economic, social foundation, sometimes even political foundations are generally shaky. So what makes you think that the enterprise that you build, will be stable when everything else is changing? So I think enjoy the process. And do the best that you can. But at the end of the day, don't just think of good can come out of it

Eric: 1:58:01

And

Sharon: 1:58:01

are thankful for it. But even when bad comes out of it, which certainly will happen. All right, then take it in good stride and learn from it too.

Eric: 1:58:11

Thanks for that. I'm just going to move into our final section, the rapid fire round. So First question I have to ask is how do you buy clothes differently from people? Oh, I

Sharon: 1:58:24

I simply shop very little. I make it a point not to buy, but somehow my wardrobe keeps filling up because everybody thinks that I don't buy, so other people feels that they have to buy for

Eric: 1:58:35

me. How always where is this

Sharon: 1:58:38

I it's a, it's a, it's Literally everything, from my watch all the way down is a

Eric: 1:58:43

gift. Oh,

Sharon: 1:58:44

Yeah, people know that I make it clear that I don't buy. It would take me a lot to think that I need something, because I feel I have everything. It was many years ago when I started this. And what I'll do is going to come to the year end. I would take some of the abundance of my wardrobe and I'll literally reduce my wardrobe quite drastically down. And then I will ship it to charity or, give it away. I'll do something in that. By the time it comes to the end of the year, it fills up again, even without me buying. So there you

Eric: 1:59:17

it. so there you have it. Oh my gosh, does this apply to other things apart from clothes? No,

Sharon: 1:59:22

No, every pretty much many things. Yeah, consumables and yeah, by nature. I mean I look at it and I say I have everything that I need and my wants are not necessarily things that I need So hold it lightly. Yeah.

Eric: 1:59:39

What are two or three books that you've recommended most to others?

Sharon: 1:59:42

Oh how well will you measure your life by Oh, that's a, that's an excellent book. All right. To read. And then second book that I have introduced to a lot of startup is this book called the CEO and the board. It's a thin looking book. All right. That helps people to really understand. how does relationship build, but that's such a key relationship between the board and the CEO, right?

Eric: 2:00:07

And

Sharon: 2:00:08

the third book, that I don't understand why people don't attack it enough. It's actually the Bible. I just don't understand why people don't gleam from it enough. There are a lot of wisdom and a lot of promises, especially for faith based entrepreneur and investor. If you believe that your talents, your gifts and all are from God, then shouldn't the one who gives you instruction, shouldn't you be going back to the instruction book to figure out how to do what you do, right?

Eric: 2:00:38

And a disclaimer, it wouldn't have the numbers and whatever you need, but the principles of the heart and Morals, and how you do things, is it? Or you think it's really a business, like,

Sharon: 2:00:49

I think that, I journal, all right. So every morning, the quiet time the, just the discipline of just reading and all. I always feel that every time I open the Bible, it's an encounter with God. Hearing, when you read the word and you believe that the word is directed at you and you're reading it, there's so much truth that is released. Yes. And. In entrepreneurship, when things are happening externally, so many things are happening internally. All right. Sometimes we, in order to be reflective, we don't even know what's going on inside of us. And I found it quite amazing when the word of God comes in and just reveals certain things about how I'm feeling. Right. And that's where I do like deepest journaling and all that. It's great because it helps gives clarity. So I certainly would not have made it through without God. I think read and reflect, don't read because you have to, but if you read thinking that you're encountering God himself, then I think things comes in quite different.

Eric: 2:01:49

quite different.

Sharon: 2:01:52

Last night I was watching Buy Now

Eric: 2:01:54

Nutcracker,

Sharon: 2:01:54

Netflix. Yeah, that's quite good. And then I think I'm gonna, maybe a show that I watch, also it's called The Shack. It was a book that I read years ago. All right, and I realized that there was a movie on that as well. So that's quite a good movie to also watch.

Eric: 2:02:12

also quite a good one to catch

Sharon: 2:02:19

I found that, good insights.

Eric: 2:02:21

Podcast I found in Seoul. Good teaching,

Sharon: 2:02:27

steamed rice and a sunny side up.

Eric: 2:02:30

steamed rice and sunny side up. Yeah.

Sharon: 2:02:38

what does people get wrong

Eric: 2:02:39

I misunderstood.

Sharon: 2:02:40

Maybe they feel that maybe others may feel that I'm hands off on certain things. And they expect someone to, when you talk CEO type of character, people would look at someone who was to come in and take control and all that, right? And maybe that is one area some people may misunderstand when they don't see me take control or what they see as control, or they see me talk, in a certain way. And they're like, that's not what this image is supposed exactly fit into most people's image.

Eric: 2:03:14

Yeah. Well, what's a snapshot of your ordinary life? That brings you great joy.

Sharon: 2:03:21

brings me great joy when I start doing on my walking journey. When I walk Nature Park or Park Connectors and all that. Those are good things, and because those are the time where I take time for reflection.

Eric: 2:03:36

And yeah, well, if you weren't running businesses, what kind of job do you think you would be in?

Sharon: 2:03:41

I think I like building things by nature. something breaks down at home. I'm the first person who comes with my toolkits and I try to fix some things. All right. So, yeah, if I wasn't running a business, I guess maybe I'll do something like carpentry or something like that. Yeah. I would do that because I like building

Eric: 2:04:01

things. Wow, that's really

Sharon: 2:04:03

and fixing.

Eric: 2:04:04

What's one thing you are grateful for now

Sharon: 2:04:06

I'm grateful today that I have the opportunity to be where I am to have this liberty to decide, in what to do right now and to accompany others. It's a privilege I don't take lightly, and to be able to come to this and to be able to do this it's something I don't take lightly. So I, it's a, I'm very thankful for that.

Eric: 2:04:31

So final question, how can listeners find you and be helpful?

Sharon: 2:04:36

Well, you can find me on my LinkedIn,

Eric: 2:04:39

yes.

Sharon: 2:04:40

Call Eric.

Eric: 2:04:40

Eric. All right. Thanks so much for speaking with me, Sharon.

Sharon: 2:04:45

I had fun too. Thanks.

Eric: 2:04:46

Eric.

2:04:48

Thanks so much for listening to the soil and scale podcast. I'm your host, Eric tine. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Don't forget to subscribe. Like leave a comment follow it in your favorite podcasting app leave a review and share it with your friends. You can also join our WhatsApp group where you can provide me a feedback and chat with like minded individuals. Or subscribe to my sub stack, where I post about business and entrepreneurship. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. And see you on our next one.