Focal Point
Conversations with artists across all industries, taking a deep dive into the nuances, techniques, and philosophies of society's talent.
Focal Point
Dreams VS Reality #46 w/ Filmmaker Malakai Bisel
Filmmaker Malakai Beisel takes us on an authentic journey from his childhood experiments with a borrowed VHS camera to his current work developing a feature film.
Aspiring filmmakers will find particular value in Malakai's candid insights about the business realities of independent production. From navigating festival submissions with a 40-minute film to understanding SAG requirements and complex attachment agreements, he doesn't shy away from the nitty-gritty details that can make or break a project. As he prepares for his upcoming drama-comedy feature Malakai shares lessons learned about budgeting, legal considerations, and the importance of thorough preparation.
His journey reminds us that in filmmaking, as he puts it, "you're relearning how to make a movie every time" - a humbling truth that keeps the creative process both challenging and endlessly rewarding.
um, but yeah, welcome to the podcast. Uh dude. Um, when I I saw your uh film, it was a. It was a short film, but it was a long short film. It was like 40, 45 minutes long short short long yes well, I mean, I can somewhat relate to that. I wrote like a 45 page script and then you're turning in an hour, 20 at one point I'm like, oh, shoot okay yeah, terrible for getting into festivals.
Speaker 1:It was difficult oh, dude, yeah, it's awful, um, because you don't really have a great slot to put it right, you know because generally like 10-15 minutes or something like that did uh. Did it end up going in short film categories anyway, or did you have to kind of pick and choose your film festivals a little bit more wisely?
Speaker 2:we did have to pick and choose a bit more wisely. But some of them have different like uh, I don't know guide posts where, like, some of them consider 40 minutes a featurette. Some of them the max for shorts is like 50 minutes. So it just kind of depended. You know, we did get into it, you know a handful and we did get like some awards and stuff like that. But uh, yeah, it was definitely. If it was shorter it would have been a lot easier, of course, you know. But yeah, because it's like this whole slot thing, well, I could program this 140 minute short slash feature or I could program 10 four minute shorts. You know what I mean, right? So, yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It was a bit difficult, but I learned my lesson there, you know, as far as marketability, because it's important well, I mean, it's a passion project just ends up turning into whatever it is it turns into, and then you know, at the end of the day you just kind of end up eating whatever it is that is put on your plate and then you decide whether or not you want to make the same meal again.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:But go ahead and introduce yourself and tell me how you got started doing what you do.
Speaker 2:Yes, so my name is Malachi Tine Beisel. I'm primarily a writer, director, but I, you know, have done it all. I was always making movies as a kid. You know, like we had borrowed my my like older aunt and uncles like over the shoulder VHS camcorder for a while. Like when I say borrowed, we had it for like seven years. I don't know why, but like me and my cousins would.
Speaker 2:Just, you know, we figured out you can do stop motion, cause you could pause and you know, record stuff like that. We used to do all these like I would be a British guy, you know, showing how I made this magnificent fort and like it was like an HGTV show type of thing. I don't know what we were going for, but just making stupid stuff like that. And then you know, I had done that forever with different cameras that I had, you know, with my cousins and stuff. And then I also was a musician my whole life. So I was always kind of in the artistic, creative world. You know like, oh, we need the music video. Ok, well, I can do that. Or you know, we need music for this, this movie that we made. Well, we have a band or I can write a song for that. And then they kind of just coincided and escalated together.
Speaker 2:And then I was like, okay, well, I need kind of a backup plan and I was lucky enough to have a scholarship for college. So I was like, okay, well, I'm going to go to college because you know, just in case, right, I mean this isn't a very easy career to pursue, right. And so I got a degree in communication through journalism and was still making films all the meanwhile and I worked in news for a little bit as like a nightcrawler and that was. I hated it. I hate. I hate working in news. It was just not creative, like I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 2:Um, and then I was like, well, well, I'm just going to keep making movies. You know, I'm like, ok, I'm going to make this one, I'm going to put this together, and then you learn from that. And then the next movie, it's OK, I'm going to do this stuff a little bit different. And then, you know, flash forward, 10 years later. You know, now I'm able to get people that are professional, they they dps, they are professional actors, they are, you know, raising bigger chunks of money, and it just kind of escalates from there. But like everything in my life is all fueled into this pursuit of creative passion. I guess that's kind of like the the brief overview okay, is that?
Speaker 1:um is your time at the news. Kind of what inspired the plot line for your film Dead End Dreams.
Speaker 2:No, not necessarily.
Speaker 1:There's some similarities there, of not being creatively fulfilled, and then you know Right the plot of what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, not necessarily. I guess you know what. Actually I guess it would, because in Dead End Dreams the characters are kind of two different versions of myself, like there's the person that wants to, you know, pursue the dreams, or there's also the person that's the realist. That's like no, I got to do the, you know I have responsibilities and you know how you try to keep those. You got to find the balance between those, between your passions and your responsibilities.
Speaker 2:So I guess in that aspect, you know where, if you're gonna, you you don't want to be doing like the corporate stuff because you know like it's not creatively fulfilling, however, that's what it gets, makes you money, right, you know that's that's how you do it. But also, if your your head is in the clouds all the time and you're like you know, not pursuing responsibilities and you're not making money, like well, are you really a great person to be around, you know? So it's like the balance of those. So I guess many aspects of my life inspired dead end dreams. But yeah, the news I guess does take does have its place in there as well is that your largest project to date?
Speaker 2:yeah, I would say that not the longest, because I, one of my earlier films was like I call it the accidental feature which was like supposed to be a lot shorter than it became and became longer. Now you can retrospect it's like, oh, I could have cut out so much stuff, right, but you learn from it. But yeah, I would say I've had a pretty consistent progression of you know bigger and bigger stuff as far as production quality, um, you know budget, marketing and you know stuff like that. So, yeah, I would say it's the biggest one so far.
Speaker 1:I got to back up just for personal interest. This isn't even great for the podcast, I just want to know um, okay, stop motion.
Speaker 2:Did you do lego videos? Uh, no, ironically, no, I know the type of videos you're talking about. Yeah, but no, I was. We were doing more, like because that's what got me into it.
Speaker 1:I did those. Yeah, yeah, yeah I was.
Speaker 2:I always loved like like Playmation and stuff like that. But when I say stop motion, we were doing like for some reason, like stop motion with real people. It would be like, okay, pause, okay, now we move forward, I don't know, like there's no really reason to do that. Or it would be like we had this big giant stuffed animal like a cheetah and like, okay, I'm going to move that with my hands and then like pause, and it would move up, you know, and a little bit at a time, that kind of thing. But yeah, no, I never really did the stuff with toys, strangely enough.
Speaker 1:I had a lot of them, though I did one thing that wasn't even Lego video related. It was just to see what it would look like, which is kind of what you end up doing. A stop motion is like. What would this look like if I tried to animate it with frames? Um, I pretended like I was a.
Speaker 1:I was driving a car and I put like some car sound effects or like a nascar or something like that and I just rode through my living room like taking pictures me like on the floor, but then I would leave behind this like cotton ball trail that's awesome and then I go around the corner and I came back and I just ate it up like a, like a vacuum it was a random thing, but for some reason I don't yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:it was just the thing with filmmaking, like half it is just kind of figuring stuff out, it's not.
Speaker 2:Oh, nobody knows.
Speaker 1:I don't think anybody knows how to make a movie they just got this thing in my head. There's some steps that I can do to accomplish it. And then the rest is like you're relearning how to make a movie every time you go to make a film.
Speaker 2:You know film? You know, yeah, 100 it's like fake it till you make it get like a bad stigma. But that is like that's what that's learning, aka learning. You know that's what the process is. Yeah, and just another thing on the stop motion thing, I did do um like I don't. Did you use monkey jam? Do you know what?
Speaker 1:that was my editing software, no, you know.
Speaker 2:So for animation. It was basically like you upload you know 500 pictures you took and monkey jam would like turn them into a video. Basically, that's just like the program that I had found and so I had made a video. It's like I think it's unlisted on my youtube channel or it's me. It's like, you know, I'm like 14, I have a playing card and I'm like, oh, but it's all stop motion. And then, like I put it into my ear and it disappears, right. And then, like I pull it out of my mouth and I'm like, ooh, magic, right, it's like 10 seconds long and, funnily enough, my partner of 13 years now we've been together for 13 years she and her brother had seen this YouTube video before we even met. So, like I, this weird like stop motion thing had come into my, like my mythos of our relationship, which is just so funny.
Speaker 1:But yeah, like my mythos of our relationship, which is just so funny. But yeah, okay, great side tangent that scratched the edge. Yeah, so you wrote dead in dreams Um, was there any particular skillset you needed that you either needed to develop or you did develop in order to be able to accomplish pulling that production off?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's an interesting question. I haven't heard a question posed quite like that. Um, I would say that this, the skill set I learned, was to write more realistically, like I had been writing characters that were very you know, specifically like a character, an archetype of, like the villain, or you know this person and that person, but with this one I had really tried to hone in on like what is this person's backstory? How do they speak? Do they even down to like this person may not use contractions, this person may not curse, as much you know and like even some of those, some of those things kind of filter out, you know by the end of it. But it helped give me guidelines and to really fulfill each specific character, um, and to like write the balance and to really practice with the rhythm of uh, of the dialogue, as far as like people repeating things in a certain certain phrase, a certain cadence and things like that.
Speaker 2:But I think also the skill set that I had to really hone in on as well was this was my first time working with all professional actors that had like all auditioned via backstage or you know whatever we had cast from and to like writing. I always like to write with the actors in mind, you know, or like we put it on its feet, we rehearse and like hear how they speak, and so writing in that way and keeping it organic which I've always done, but, you know, with these professionals around that like they're acting anyway, um. So I guess that was a different experience for me and it was something I've always kind of done, but it just kind of like sharpened that skill, I mean I hopefully, ideally, yeah.
Speaker 1:Um well, well, the thing with it's a very character-driven story, you know and those, the I don't know I forget the names of the actors, um, but they, they did a phenomenal job portraying you know what, what you wanted to. What was it like working with them to be able to deliver emotional dialogue in the way that you constructed?
Speaker 2:yeah, I mean it was fun. Like first off it was just it was fun, it was a blast and it was. We were so privileged to have actors of that caliber because you know, obviously like, so you've seen the film, it can, it's it's like one second it's very silly, like almost slapsticky, but then the next second, ideally like it's like it's very real and grounded and maybe makes you think about things. It's like it's very real and grounded and maybe makes you think about things. It's more emotional. So finding that balance in the actors was difficult. You know, like we had gone through several submissions and some submissions were just like, you know, like just playing up, just the silly. You know like what you know, like one guy's got like just a sucker in his mouth and he's like what's up, you know, and it's like okay, but he didn't really have that like grounded presence.
Speaker 2:But then we found um, you know angel, so he played fenner. Um, no, sorry, angel played sev. He was the guy with like the you know the more eccentric guy, the actor, and he, uh, his audition even though he's like the eccentric, the crazy, the flamboyant character, his audition was even though he's like the eccentric, the crazy, the flamboyant character. His audition was just kind of like really like he's kind of like throwing it off, like throwing it away. He wasn't like trying to ham it up, he wasn't trying to like deliver lines, he was just the character, which is really great. And obviously we kind of shaped it and, you know, styled it along the way.
Speaker 2:But that was interesting, finding someone that provides something that you didn't know the character needed, but also someone that's willing to work with the character and like it becomes a living, you know organic thing that we work together on. And then same thing with ricky, who played fenner. His, uh, his audition was just like rage filled, you know, he was just like yelling and going off and like that. He like improv that burp in his audition which wasn't in the script originally, and like I was like that's, that's what this is where it's like it's realistic, it's maybe gets a little laugh, you know, but it's also like it was just grounded and it felt real and everything. So I think, finding actors that are able to bring something you didn't know was there before, but can also be shaped and willing to work with you until the point that they know the characters better than you do, I feel like that was a really long-winded answer.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry. You're good, um. Was there any like feedback in terms of the dialogue that the actors gave that you ended up changing?
Speaker 2:hmm, you mean like changing based on what they had your feedback on?
Speaker 1:yeah, because you know there's an ironing out process when it comes to oh yeah acting it out and then maybe we would tweak this little thing over here.
Speaker 1:um, so I'm just wanting a little bit more in depth about the, the nuances of you know, as a director, working with actors on something that you wrote because it's not like, yeah, you have a personal attachment to it because you wrote it and so there's a lot you, although you have a, you know, writer, directors tend to have a much more clear idea of what they're, you know what they're going for. That also gives like it can be a double-edged sword, because one you don't want to pigeonhole the actors, because they need a little bit more room and a little bit more freedom to actually be able to bring something authentic, and they're not, you know, just trying to. You know, mouth read whatever you wrote, right?
Speaker 1:And so is there any things? Are there any things from a particular scene that you ended up changing based on the feedback from the actors?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean 100 percent. That's like I had written it and I kind of shaped it as far as like doing table reads and you know things like that. And there comes a point where the character, the actors, begin to know the characters better than me and I'm, you know, every actor, every director has their own style. Of course there's you know, aaron Sorkin, who's like it's this specific way, and that's fine, that's we love Aaron Sorkin movies. Right, like it's this specific way and that's fine, that's, we love Aaron Sorkin movies. Right, for me, it's you know.
Speaker 2:There comes a point where the actors begin to know the characters better than I do, to where, like like Angel specifically, had sent me a screenshot of his like marked up script and he's like huh, well, I actually read it this way. I know you were kind of thinking this, but like this is where I think this is coming from and I'm like, oh my gosh, like no, that's a good point, I see what you're saying and like, yes, play it that way. To where they begin to know them better than I do. And then some of the dialogue like there's certain things that obviously need to be said and conveyed, or certain things that are a rhythm and a cadence.
Speaker 2:But I'm definitely open and I love to foster where the actors begin to say things in a different way, because then written, because it's consistent with them as their performance. Of course, you know, again, these are actors that could, they could easily do it like exactly word for word, as scripted of course, but I think that makes it more real. You know, even like as far as stuttering lines or, you know, repeating something in a different way, because that is more realistic. And in the, in dialogue, of course, you know we don't want dialogue to be hyper-realistic because that would be boring. You know, we as people, if you listen to people just talking like the airport people are annoying, right?
Speaker 2:They just like circle, for you know, three minutes not saying, saying anything, so you don't want that, but, yes, 100 they.
Speaker 2:The dialogue does change a little bit and things get shaped differently, and some of that has to do with you know where these lines are coming from. Like like there was, you know, you asked for like a specific, specific point. Um, like we were in the scene where the so griffin uh, fenner's younger sister is like okay, I'm leaving, like I'm done with this, like I'm fed up. She's like I'm leaving, I'm going to frenchies or whatever, and he's like okay, well, you got the tattoo and that scene was interesting because there's not a lot of dialogue spoken, but but I really spoke with the actors and talked about how this is the final goodbye. You say those three lines but then afterward in your eyes you're saying you know, goodbye. Like I messed up, I'm asking you about your tattoo, but I'm really saying goodbye, I'm just trying to point out to you that I care and I remember. So, yeah, things like that, it all definitely evolves and it's living organic.
Speaker 1:Well, and the following scene that ends up happening the character who's placed in charge of his sister after his mother's death, he ends up having a breakdown as he's editing on his computer at night and that scene, I think, honestly ended up defining the rest of the movie in terms of the direction of where it's going to go. And sometimes, you know, the best dialogue that's spoken is the one that's never said, Right? I think that's when an actor is able to convey that that just brings the audience in. You know, it certainly brought me in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 100% yeah, and that that just brings the audience in. You know, it certainly brought me in yeah, 100 yeah. And ricky, who played fender in that scene, he was one of those actors like you know, every actor has a different style or whatever. So, like I was talking to him, you know about like, where he's at emotionally and like really like okay, everyone, like give us a moment, you know, because it's a very intimate scene, right, and ricky's one of those guys that he was like like yeah, I know we've got all that. He's like I can just cry.
Speaker 1:Like he's like, he's like. I can just turn it on.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like he's like he was doing it even before the take, like he was like, yeah, just give me like two seconds, ok, I'm going to cry or whatever. You know like he could do that, but obviously it's not asked me for was he's like, just do me one favor, don't say action, like just just go ahead and go over there, go back to you know a video village and start rolling and then just don't say action and I'll, I'll bring it. You know, because he didn't want that like distraction to get into character. So, like I think that was interesting is learning everybody's different approaches, um, you know, and how some people get into the emotional side of things. Some people you know like to get emotional before the take or like they're jumping up and down, you know, like Jack Nicholson in the Shining or whatever. Like I think that was really fun and interesting is learning different people's approach and there's not one, there's not a right way, it's just different.
Speaker 1:Well, what particularly added weight to that was because we had already seen crying previously in the film. It was coming mainly from the auditions of the actor character and I'm like if I was watching that I'd be like, oh shoot, that was a good audition, that was really really good. And then we see just this raw version of it and suddenly it all feels way more real.
Speaker 1:And it added a lot of weight, and I just wanted to point that out because I certainly appreciated it. Um, yeah, uh, I have a little bit of a deeper question. Typically, I like to say these sorts of questions for the more later in the podcast, but you know, given that it's pertaining to the film, I think it's appropriate to ask now. In order to write, as well as direct, a character driven story, you have to something, at least something key, about human nature. You know, what is your understanding about people, and how did that affect creating these characters for Dead End Dreams?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean I think that for one, like I said, fenner and Sev are kind of two different sides of myself, so I can put myself into those shoes. But also I mean, like I said, fenner and Sev are like kind of two different sides of myself, so like I can put myself into those shoes. But also I mean, as a writer, I think your character, your characters are all have a little piece of you, right. Like that's just kind of how it happens. You know you're the one writing.
Speaker 2:So I think to write characters that have this depth, you know, like when I first had written like this draft, it was originally just supposed to be like a silly, like improv, like curb your enthusiasm style, like that was like two or three years before I even decided to make it like, and then I found it again later and I had like read it with a new perspective of like okay, well, if this is like funny, but like what is the deeper story? Like what is the deeper story here? What is the deeper, deeper thing, you know? And so I really just kind of focused and honed in on these characters and like figured out what their backstories were, why this is going on and not everything has to be exactly figured out. Like you know, what this beef specifically was between the characters isn't quite that important, but it's the emotional resonance and I think if we all look hard enough, some of us, not even some of us don't even have to look that hard. But like we've experienced the range of emotions these characters go through, you know, and like I think a big one is that we want to try to ignore these past traumas or whatever and kind of let things evolve naturally. But then also you want to kind of ignore it and sometimes you have these outbursts but then you go back to ignoring it.
Speaker 2:So I think it was just like each time I would kind of draft the script, I'd kind of look at it from a different perspective. You know, like what does it look like from griffin's perspective, from fenner's perspective, sev's? You know, or even like even the director and the casting agent in the beginning, like they're obviously a little bit more of just like comedic characters in the opening of the film. However, like they have a story as well. You know, like it's all depending on who your perspective is. You know who you're looking, whose eyes you're looking through. So and I wanted to kind of bounce back and forth with that as well, because so and I wanted to kind of bounce back and forth with that as well because you know, if you look at the like, I've gotten heard a lot of different feedback from people Like some people are like, oh, sev's character, like he's the right one.
Speaker 2:You know, fenner, he's just a jerk, like he needs to like get over it or whatever. And some people are like no, Fenner is right, he's doing the right thing. You know, sev is coming up in here and messing everything up and like that's the point. You know, is it like it's all from which perspective you're looking at it through? So that was kind of like. So I kind of just every time I would go to through the draft of the script, I would try to keep those things in mind. Does that answer the question? I'm sorry, I feel like I'm just giving the longest non-answers.
Speaker 1:I'm like a politician, because there was a very clear dichotomy between the two main characters. And what I personally appreciated is that, even though the actor was a little bit more privileged than his friend, you did portray that even people who everybody still has their own struggles, and you respected the struggles that each character was going through, even though to some degree, each character's criticism of the other was completely justified. Right, because the actor, although he has a little bit more wiggle room financially, he still has his own struggles and his subjective perception of what's going on in his life. And then you have a much more grounded, realistic thing. That happens to the majority of people, particularly creatives, when they they don't really have the financial means to be able to do what they want to do, even though that passion is still buried there, and you know when they hash it out in a very large scene. You know that's probably the main scene that you were going for in the middle of the film, when he's drinking and he comes in and they hash out their problems.
Speaker 2:I don't know what particularly to call that scene, but I think you know what.
Speaker 1:I'm talking about yeah, the argument, yeah the argument, yeah, getting to see those two things resolved. You wrote some good characters. I'm very curious to actually just hear a little bit more about the next project that you're wanting on, because you said that when you ran this film through the film festivals you got a little bit of attention and now you're in production for a feature for a different script.
Speaker 2:Yes, so you mentioned first about the, the different perspectives and how everyone has a point, and like that is a big thing for me. You know, like a lot of these great shows I'm not comparing myself my skills to the shows like this, but like succession, you know, like you know, the logan roy is the biggest jerk of them all. You know he's evil, he's the villain of the show, right, but however, they make a point of going through his backstory and it doesn't make what he's doing right, but it's like hurt people, hurt people, and I think that's a big thing that transpires time. Everyone has these emotions and there is no perfect being, and so I think everyone has their problems and so I really tried to make sure that there was no person that's just wrong in the script. Everyone has a great point.
Speaker 2:And you talked about the argument scene and how. Yes, that was kind of like the pivotal scene of the film. There was even a moment where I was like if I had to cut this movie down to get into the more festivals, like I could, just it would just be the scene, right, you know, like I could do that because it's like a seven minute scene or whatever. It's a very long scene, you know, and like cause. That just is kind of the bulk of it. I didn't decide to do that, however, which I'm I'm glad stuff. But yes, that scene they bring up these points and they, they mention things and they make pointed, uh attacks at each other, but then also, like seb's character brings up, makes points like oh, I didn't even think about it that way, or we start to hear glimpses of this, this beef that they have, that we didn't really realize that they both hurt each other, you know, and it was also kind of a misunderstanding, but also they did genuinely hurt each other and I, what I really tried to do by the end of it is, you know, that to me it's not a, it's not a happy ending things. They boil up, people say the things they say at it, toward each other or at each other, and then they can kind of resolve some things in themselves. It makes us feel better as we, you know an argument when we say hurtful things and we go on to regret later. However, they are both able to grow. They needed that, they needed that argument to move on in their own lives and in my, in the way I wrote it and attended it.
Speaker 2:However, I opened to interpretation. I think that's the beauty of of film and any kind of creative piece. I don't think they ever talk again by the end. They have that final phone call and it's a little bit awkward. They've kind of hashed out their beef a little bit and they can move on separate, but I think this was just like. This was just a little side quest that they needed to fulfill themselves. I like storytelling like that, because you have some resolution, you complete arcs. However, it's everything doesn't end with a bow on top, you know. So you did kind of cut out during the question, but does that kind of answer? The is what you were talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it does. Am I coming? A good OK now.
Speaker 2:Yes, it is better now.
Speaker 1:OK, good, good. At what point did you feel that the script was finished enough to be able to begin a production, or pre-production rather?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I mean kind of like what I was saying before, like it was it's never, a script is never finished until you're like shooting it, right? Oh, sorry.
Speaker 1:I love the picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh yeah, that's. My partner gave that to me. She actually. She ordered one and then it came with two for some reason. I love the picture. Yeah, oh yeah, that's um, my partner gave that to me. She actually she ordered one and then it came with two. For some reason, like they sent an extra one, I don't know why, and I was like I'll take it it's a free chair yeah, hell, yeah, free chair, um, but anyway, yeah, a script is never finished until you're so you're making it.
Speaker 2:You know, like it's organic. So you know, I had a draft and then we would do a table read, virtually, because some people were out of town and like, okay, cool, and then I'll take notes and kind of shape it around new things that I've learned or things that were said or things we talked about. And then you know, then we do the rehearsals and then we kind of shape it a little bit differently and then all the way up to you know, the bigger productions, you get to like obviously you can't do this, you have to have like a locked thing because everyone is based around that. But for this it was still like kind of a smaller production. You know, down to like the day before we're shooting, I'm like okay, this has been tweaked a little bit, nothing crazy. You know, I'm not trying to throw the actors off or anything like that, but just threw a little a couple extra commas in there, you know yeah yeah, you know, hey, a comma goes a long way, or a good uh.
Speaker 2:You know what? What is the uh? What's the m? An m dash? I love a good m dash. You know where? It's like the, the thick hyphen, um, but yeah, and then you're just like okay, this is the script that we're going to and this is this is our key, this is our guide, and then you also have several different other types of guides so that everyone is on the same page. So, yeah, it's kind of a living, breathing document until it just cannot be anymore. Where are you based out of? I am in fort wayne, indiana, so like we shot here in fort wayne and then you know. But I also do like my commercial work, like a lot more like in indy and sometimes in chicago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, fort wayne, yeah, yeah where are you out of I'm? I'm based out of uh dayton, ohio.
Speaker 2:You know, okay, sandwich, but you know where that is yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay, for the rest of the people who might be listening, that is sandwiched almost middle, the middle point between cincinnati and columbus, home of the brothers right, yeah and for the people that don't know Cincinnati and Columbus. Yeah, I normally I'll just say like Cincinnati for generalities. But so here's California, you're over there. Yeah, I'm going to start using my hand as a map. You know, michigan, iowa, that sort of thing. How did you go?
Speaker 2:about sourcing your crew up in fort wayne. Yeah, so we actually have a smaller little like indie film community here. I mean, I feel like community is a strong word. I mean some people might use that word, but there's like a collection, there's like a handful of filmmakers here and a lot of yeah, yeah, basically.
Speaker 2:But a lot of people do like a lot of work in indie, you know, and stuff like that, you know, or in chicago and things like that, but they live, they're based out of fort Wayne because indie is only, you know, two hours away. So the way we did this one, so like I guess I should say first that I was originally going to just kind of shoot this myself and like I was gonna not make much of it, you know, write it, direct it and like kind of just source some people around, you know, within my little, my little small collection of people. But then I was like you know, I think I could actually make this project bigger, like I think I could do it, do it right, you know. Like that's one of those things where I started getting like that imposter syndrome. When you write a script, first it's like this is the greatest thing that's ever been written, and then the next draft is this is terrible, I should never show this. And then the next draft is I'm a god. And then the fourth draft is I am nothing.
Speaker 2:I really got a lot of support from my partner. She was like is this good? Is should I make this. She's like, yes, this is really good, you know, and I'm like it's funny, right. And you know, the thing I always tell people is like she was one. That was like, no, it's sad, like I see a lot of your own personal traumas in this, and I was like, oh gosh, I didn't even realize that. And that's kind of what helped me blend the the deeper emotional stuff with the comedic stuff, you know, because she could see what I could of my parts of myself in there that I couldn't see at first. But anyway, you know, I had worked on another production and I met Victoria Britton, who she was a producer and AD on dead and dreams, and I was telling her about the project and I was like, you know, I really really like to work with someone, you know, like her, like a producer and AD and everything, and which I hadn't really done with someone that did that professionally, you know, like she had, and I was like, okay, cool. So then I sent her the script and she's like, okay, yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 2:And we started kind of putting it together and she has a big collection of people, you know, she's got like a big rolodex, basically, of people and she's like really helped, uh, foster the idea of like we can make this like legit. You know, we could get the people. I know these people, I know this person and you know. So I was like, okay, cool, like joe frank dp, she knows him like, okay, heck, yeah, I love, I love this guy, I love his stuff. You know, let's do it like oh, liz, uh, liz wolford, uh, for sound like heck, yeah, let's get her like these are people that I didn't know she had worked with before, um, but I was like she really helped bring a lot of those people there. So, and that was just a lot of people that we knew.
Speaker 2:And then for casting, I think we used backstage, which I'm not sure if you're familiar with that, but it's basically just like, yeah, it's like a casting service. We put out the auditions and a lot of people came through, a lot of great people, a lot of duds, you know. But there's also a lot of people that like they're like this isn't the one for you but like keep going. You know, like we had this like nine-year-old little boy audition for griffin, because it was like open gender at first and like he killed it. Dude, he was like open gender at first and like he killed it, dude, he was like cursing at the camera and he's like I hate you, brother, blah blah, and like he was great, it just like he was a little bit too young. But I like sent him a message being like just keep going, dude, like you you're gonna be good, you know. But anyway, yeah, so we got the casting through there and like the character of sad, you know, angel Ray, who played him, came in like really late.
Speaker 2:I was like so worried that we weren't gonna find someone. So then it's just like over the course of I don't know I everyone that's worked with me will say like I, I like to start really early, like I feel like there's no such thing as too much communication. So like we started in I want to say like November or something and then we ended up shooting in like spring or something like that. So we had like six months or whatever for pre-production for a film this size, which wasn't we could have done it in like a lot less time than that, but like we did that and so we could foster these relationships and Zoom, meet with people and like yeah, we just slowly put the team together and then we had like the rehearsals and all that kind of stuff which really helped to make it so the first day of shooting isn't just like, hey, how are you? Okay, get to work, like we could build those relationships. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 1:It was kind of a mixture of a bunch of different things, but yeah, that's kind of how we put the crew together are there any lessons that you learned from making this that, um, you know you're going to translate and be able to do better into the next production you're trying to do.
Speaker 2:Yes, I would say. I mean, one of the main things that comes to mind is that. So, joe, I have you know, me and Joe are kind of talking so he was the DP for Dead End Dreams. He's going to be DPing the next feature and we had actually talked about this as, like with that script. So with Dead End Dreams it was like 24 pages, something like that, and by the end it was 40 minutes. So, like you know that, learned that lesson of like how timing works out with things.
Speaker 2:But with this crew the size that we had, and we shot it, I think, four or five days, you know. So we're shooting pretty, pretty simple shots. Like we got some, we got some cool shots and I think they look good. I'm happy with how they look, but with the, the speed that we had to work at and the you, you know, it was just a DP. We didn't even have, like, we had a gaffer, but we don't have grips or anything like that. Joe was shooting everything himself. So everything is pretty simple, pretty much wides and overs and pretty much basic coverage, which is fine, you know. But we, you know, it's kind of like a TV show where it's, like, you know, like a sitcom where it's like you have three cameras at once. We didn't have three cameras at once, but that's kind of what it seems like.
Speaker 2:So we talked about making it look more cinematic, making it look more like a movie on the next one because I think that was a lesson I learned that we have depth in. This is kind of like technical stuff, but in our shots there's depth in the framing but it's not deep Like I don't know. I don't know how to explain it, but like to get more cinematic and get more creative shots that aren't just basic stuff because we're moving so fast and to plan for that accordingly. So we have the time to do it. So I think that was a big thing. As far as being more cinematic with the cinematography and other things to take lessons from, I think was I was pretty new to the whole like legal side of things. We didn't have a lot of legal stuff on Dead End Dreams, but as far as like this is why there's whole people dedicated to this aspect to this aspect.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, 100. Yeah, like, you know contracts and paperwork and taxes and you know that kind of stuff which victoria knows a lot about and she helped. You know she was kind of handled that side of undead and dreams. But for this bigger project we're like doing a lot of research on that kind of stuff. So I guess those are the first two things that come to mind. You know it's kind of like the technical side of things, but the bigger, the bigger you get right the other non-creative stuff that you have to worry about Right, which I enjoy doing. It's just you don't know what you don't know, so learn, I think, just a big learning process in general.
Speaker 1:Have you reached out to like a you know, a film lawyer for this next one, or something like that?
Speaker 2:in that regard, yeah, We've talked to a couple. Actually, I've got a list of people to reach out to as well. There's not a lot of entertainment lawyers in Indiana and they don't have to be in Indiana, but we want to find specifically, yeah, like an entertainment lawyer that's not too big, where they're like oh you dumb kids, they don't know what they're doing. We don't want that. We also want someone that, like knows what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Where are they from indiana? Oh god, yeah, exactly, exactly, indy, who, yeah, yeah, so, yeah, yeah, we're definitely looking into that side of things. Okay, um, how far off the ground, because it seems like you're still pretty much in pre-production for a lot of things and you're still fishing around. Where does the uh producer, uh side of it come into? You know what kind of budget are you trying to go for and work with here for the future?
Speaker 2:yes, yes, so we are looking for one million dollars and which, like I always say to people, it's a lot of money for like, probably for me and for you like, but as far as a movie goes, that's like low, that is like nothing, because you know, you think of food and half that's food and the legal stuff and the taxes and uh the payroll money doesn't even go toward the production.
Speaker 1:It's just right going to like making sure that, like you're covering your butt right, yeah.
Speaker 2:Or like generators and you know gear. Or like paying a police officer to be on set one day to block the street off, so like that, which is all needed, of course. Yes, so we're looking for a million and we're actually we're in I would say we're still kind of in development on that. We're hoping to be in the pre-production in the spring or like the winter, I guess, and right now we're kind of at the stage of like reaching out to the people that we want to work with. You know, like joe, um, or even you know the same actors from dead and dreams, angel and ricky, and being like, okay, this is what the plan, we're not doing anything yet. But just like, don't hold your breath. You know, don't wait, don't like, don't not take work or anything like that, but just so you know it's coming that way, like I always believe.
Speaker 2:Like I said, I'm like early communication. So then when we're ready to go, it's like boom, remember that, let's go. You know that type of thing, um, yeah. And like budget wise, victoria and I are working again together on this, um, as far as getting the budget where it needs to be, like, do we kind of take a little bit less money here but and put it more on the screen, or it's like you know, marketing is a big thing. Like we want to have a good pr team and like, okay, well, should we? It'd be great to hire a poster designer, but like I could do the poster design, but also I want something that third party you know.
Speaker 1:So we're really trying to balance the the budget as it's where we're at right now have a high resolution of of thinking in order to actually just be able to parse through everything that you're going to end up doing in order to not go over budget.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and like you want to make sure you have like there's like a 10% contingency built in, you know. So ideally you don't spend that money, right, you know. But it's like the just you know, just in case act of God type of backup money. And you've got to think about there's back-end points and you've got to consider when you work with SAG you have to pay a bond fee which is basically like a down deposit for all the actors you're going to pay. So it's not extra money, but it's money you have to pay right off rip before the weekly payments, which is like half. So you've got to make sure you have that ready to go. And then, yeah, you got to cover. Like you said, you got to cover your butt as far as the timeline of things, as far as, like, you can't ask SAG actors to do certain things. So, yes, it's like a big, it's a big thing which I enjoy doing, but like it's definitely very nitpicky.
Speaker 1:Is there anything like you think um, indie filmmakers need to know about sag in terms of how to go about working with them, that you think would be beneficial?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I mean, we haven't. We haven't even contacted our like sag representative yet. So like there's, it's like I think like two or three months before you actually get to production, you have to contact them and they're like, okay, here's your SAG representative and they like guide you through things. So like we haven't actually worked with them yet. However, sag, specifically like their website, sagcom or whatever it is, has this all broken out into, like all the contracts and the guidelines and everything like that. So like it's just a big research thing as far as you go. You know you, you can go on there and have everything broken out and like, yeah, it's a 45 page contract, but just read it. Just read it.
Speaker 2:If you're not willing to take the time to read through a contract, why would I trust you with a million dollars? You know what I mean exactly. Yeah, do the work, do the work, do the research you don't know what you don't know and take notes, like we just we have, like victoria and I have this huge google drive with just like everything broken out, all these notes, and like these are the notes on how police picture cars should work and these are the notes on, like child actors they have to have, you know, a teacher on set and blah blah blah. So, yeah, I think, just doing the work of the research, because you don't know what you don't know and so just just learn.
Speaker 1:So I think that's a big tip I would give on SAG stuff so far I didn't know that the teachers on set, because SAG has a specific amount of depending on what level of filmmaking and budget that you're working with, because there's a tier range when it comes to working with SAG, it's not all like okay, you have to furnish every single actor with a trailer and all of their sparkling water and everything.
Speaker 1:It's just it's so. In what pocket of you know SAG representation that you have going on have you found to be the most difficult? That you are trying to pull off Because you want to accommodate people as much as you can? Of course you still have boundaries, of course, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so there's like I mean there's several like in between ones, but there's, like you know, high budget, which is like I don't know $200 million or whatever, and then, like, it goes down to what we're at is moderate low budget. You know, mlb I remember that because I think of baseball, mlb and that's like 2 million to I think like 750,000 or something like that. And then it goes down to like low budget, even down like micro budget, down to like shoestring budget, which is like 15,000 dollars, something like that. Like you said, the rules apply at different levels based on the tiers. So it's a good system. I mean it's it's a guild like, it's like a union. Basically it's made to protect the actors, which is great so it's somewhat accommodating too.
Speaker 1:Like you know, they keep in mind that, like you know, not every budget is going to be, you know, disney budget 100. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is great. I was really intimidated by the whole sag thing before we started looking into it and it seems just like if you just do the research and learn about it, like you pretty much be all right. You know, like, I'm sure the bigger scale things of course, but so I guess the thing that we're not fighting against, what we just have to really keep in mind is like so at our budget there's you don't have to pay anybody a certain range, like obviously we're trying to like pay people like more than the bare minimum. Of course, the only people you have to pay a specific amount or more at this level is stunt people and there's obviously like a day a day rate and there's like a weekly rate, which there's a crazy price break which makes it so much better for the the week, right, and then like singers and choreographers and stuff like that which is interesting, like where the union they break into that kind of stuff. So obviously we don't have a lot of singer. We don't have singing in this feature that we're developing, so we're not worried about that. The stunt thing is nice to know and we're still trying to pay people. We try to look at like what would they be getting paid at? You know, a normal budget of this size, we want to do that or above, basically what we can, of course.
Speaker 2:But the other thing is that with the SAG, you have to do provide, like travel and lodging, you know, and there's like a certain thing with whether it's first class or, you know, the coach flight and, like I said, like I've got this all written down but it's like it's still all like floating in my head. You know, as far as far as like, and you can't ask them for like more than so many rehearsal or self tapes, and like there's certain rules about rehearsals where you have to like they have to be paid for the rehearsal. Now, travel and lodging is a big thing, because then it's like, well, if we shoot here with this tax break, so that's a big thing as well. Like we shoot in atlanta and there's a 30 percent tax break or whatever, well, 30 tax.
Speaker 2:But if everyone's based in LA, what's the flight and lodging to here? And is that individual hotels? Is it an Airbnb, is it a house? And what's the flight like? And, okay, once they get there, do we have a transport team that drives them to places? What's their per diem so like all that kind of stuff is where it gets nitty gritty and what's their per diem so like all that kind of stuff is where it gets nitty-gritty and like you had kind of said it's. I think it's a great thing it's made to protect them and make sure they're not just you know, you work and you pluck them out, put them where you want them, right, but yeah, so I'd say that's kind of like the biggest, like uh, it's tedious, you know it's tedious and it's very important.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's kind of what we're working on right now. Like slag sag, I was actually talking to a composer that I had on the podcast, um, and he was. He expressed some interest in doing my next uh short uh, because he saw my last one, which was cut out of a feature that we couldn't finish long story but, um, interesting, yeah, uh, it's definitely an interesting story, but, um, anyway, like he was talking, he was telling me about, like, uh, some of the stuff he's been doing, like in the last I don't know couple months, because he's been trying to grind away, get his thing going as a composer and he's really great. He's really great and his work is definitely there. But he told me about all of the flakiness he has had to deal with, just because he's not the one in charge.
Speaker 1:It's a different mindset to be the one looking for the job instead of being the one trying to create the job, not just for you but also for other people, and there's a lot of different considerations that have to go into that. But when you're the one that's actually having to find the work just for you because you're fulfilling one specific role that your craft is in, then you're sort of at the mercy of whatever ends up happening.
Speaker 1:And there's a lot of the mercy of whatever ends up happening and there's there's a lot of flakiness. That ends up happening because people indie filmmakers will try to get things off the ground that aren't ready to get off the ground quite when they're ready to. There could be a lot of reasons for that. They're just really excited about it, or maybe they haven't done it yet. And you know, especially for first time filmmakers and by first time I mean like between, like film one and two, you know yeah, yeah sometimes it's uh, which on the one hand it's like, oh gosh, I don't have to deal with a big organization and all these requirements.
Speaker 1:And then, well, you have the other extreme too, where people's time is wasted and even if they do contribute something to the project, that project might just vanish for some reason.
Speaker 2:A lot, of vanishing happens, especially when you're just talking online.
Speaker 1:He was telling me about this um uh period piece that he wrote his music for. And he wrote the piece. They said they liked it and that was it, and he hadn't heard from them in six months and yeah, you get stuff like that that ends up happening. So there's a lot to be said for having you know the the corporations aren't there for the nitty and gritty, honest people who are trying to do things right. They're there for the extremes that do exist in the world.
Speaker 2:100 yeah, yeah, I think that's that that's a great like. That's a great example of why these things are good and can protect people, like I noticed too with like reaching out to like we've got, we've attached some name talent. When I was reaching out to some of these agents and stuff like that, I had learned a lot that I didn't know before. As far as what it's like to talk to an agent, there's a pay-or-play deal. Do you know what that is? Wait, pay-to-play Pay-or-play.
Speaker 1:I'm familiar with it. It's been a second since I read this like a business book for the independent filmmaking. It was like 400 pages long, but it was like right ago, so I'm a little that it rings a bell, but I go yeah, for the audience.
Speaker 2:So it's like it's like, okay, well, yeah, sure, my client will do this, but you have to pay. It's either you're gonna pay, no matter what, you're gonna pay them X amount of money, whether the project is greenlit or not, whether it goes or not. So, and that's obviously to protect them. Like, hey, if this crashes and fails, like we didn't waste our time, we're getting paid. So like, okay, I didn't realize that was a thing, so you got that. You also have like attachments, which you know, you hear about in like uh, variety and Hollywood reporter, like someone, someone's been attached to this project, which is great for marketing and sellability. Like, hey, would you like to invest money into this, because we've got freaking? Daniel Radcliffe is attached to this project, right, but he is not attached to my project. That was not a, that's not a Freudian slip.
Speaker 1:I wish you were shadowing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no, no that'd be cool, though, but that, like an attachment, helps with marketability. However, it doesn't really have any legal ramifications. So, like that's why you hear like so-and-so was supposed to be in this movie, and then you know, two weeks out, they they laughed, or whatever, because it's not legal. It's just like they've. It's like a document that expresses interest, but with no legal ramifications. Now, of course, you can't add legal ramifications, so it's like a letter of intent is what it's called, or an attachment. It's like I learned you know about that type of thing and you've also got. You know where you're offering like, hey, I can't offer you this a lot of money. However, would you like a producer credit? Would you like to help with producing the film?
Speaker 2:And some actors are like, yes, that's, my real dream is to be a producer. Or sometimes it's like a vanity credit. We're like, yes, that would just look good for me. Or sometimes it's like we can't offer you as much money. However, you know you'll have full lodging, a whole place to yourself. So, like it's all it's. That kind of stuff, too, is like you want to protect people, make it worth their while and, again, not treat them just like they're. Like you are known face. You are good people like you do this. Go where I want you to go. So, yeah, it's all about protecting people and making it worth their while because, like you had said, things crash and fail all the time. You know you don't want to. You don't want to burn your own bridges before you've they've been fully crafted it's true.
Speaker 1:If you don't mind me asking what's the synopsis for this uh film that you're trying to get off the ground?
Speaker 2:yes. So it's uh, a drama comedy, uh kind of similar in tone to barry uh the bear or the original Fargo film. It follows Dessa. She's an ignorant and naive and privileged diner manager and she does anything. Her dad asks, you know, no questions asked. And one day she, she's asked to launder money through the diner and she's like, oh, you know, okay, sure, like whatever, I'll do it. And then that same day, or like the next day, they get robbed, the money gets lost. So she's trying to get. She recruits her like her coworkers, who are all like these oddball coworkers One of them's her ex, one's an ex con, one of them is like a baby daddy that is, uh, you know, drug addicted. And they try to get the money back and along the way, learn that her father was involved in this like underground drug cartel, and that the death of her other father was he had something to do with. And so like uncovering this, this toxic history that she hadn't looked into before, this, this toxic history that she hadn't looked into before.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of about whether which is is conditional. Is love conditional or is it unconditional? Do we look past the red flags? And it's also about found family, that true family is is born in the fires of chaos. So that's kind of the spiel. How many pages is it? This is a feature. It's 90, I think it's 92 pages right now. It's called Rolling Silver. Yeah, so it's a feature and it's kind of similar in tone like Dead End Dreams, where it's like there's some really dramatic stuff and obviously it's got like a crime element, but it's also there's like some fun and silly kind of characters as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, you were talking a little bit earlier about, you know, when you were making dead end dreams, uh, learning about, uh, what translates on the page isn't necessarily what's going to translate in the edit. So I'm certainly I would imagine that you kept that in mind when you wrote 90 pages for a much for what's going to be, you know, probably a longer feature. Yeah, in that way, right, what was it like keeping that process or keeping that fact in mind when you were writing the script?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, I definitely you know, ideally you're it's like a page a minute, like obviously.
Speaker 2:That's like just like a general guideline, but generally it's like that's what producers look at basically, yeah, 90, 90 page thing, which is kind of rough, I mean, you know, whatever. But I really made sure to like when I would go back and revise the script or refine it. Rather, it's like, okay, well, this scene, I could kind of play it out in my head, like you know, literally just act it out in my head, or even act it out out loud and like, okay, that's about how long the scene is, you know. Or like, well, we don't need as much description here, because we've been in this place before, and that just adds pages that don't aren't needed. Or like this big sequence, like that is going to take a long time because it does so, like you add more description, not not unneeded description, but it's like this scene takes a long time. So like they're looking at it and describing what's going on and because that's what it's going to be, like we're seeing the visuals and we're in that moment, and so like really kind of refining each sequence of the script as far as the pacing that it should be to be in, because it's already short.
Speaker 2:What can you cut?
Speaker 2:Like that's the whole point, right, but if you have a 90 page script and you shoot it and it turns out to be, you know, two hours or even two and a half hours, well, you can chop the crap out of it and it's still gonna be a feature, right, Like you can really play around with that.
Speaker 2:You have a lot more room to cut and play with, especially if you have more characters, more cast. You can just, sometimes you just cut out a whole character right, you hear about that all the time like I was in this feature, but I was completely cut out, whereas in a short like that, in dreams, there's really only two characters. You can't really cut any of them out. So, like I kept that in mind, but also like it has a different beast in itself and yeah, so yeah, and then also, and also a big thing too, is I'm gonna have, I'm specifically gonna hire an editor that's not myself, because it's gonna be a lot easier to, like you know, kill your darlings, right, instead of, like me, being so, uh, attached to my own. I need the firing squad.
Speaker 1:I just don't want to be on it. Yes, yes, exactly uh. Well, one of the tendencies, especially if you're a writer, director, particularly when you're writing a script, uh, and even more specifically, a character driven story, is that, uh, the weakness is that there's so many opportunities, uh, that one line of dialogue or one description of a particular scene, that, where a character is being really reflective, adds a lot of screen time you know, because we want to highlight all the meaning as much as as much as we possibly can into the story because it's going to add value.
Speaker 1:But that also ends up destroying some other things in terms of the pacing because of not just of how it was written, but because of not just of how it was written but because of how it's being translated. And you don't necessarily need to have. You know, if you're making everything meaningful, then those couple points where you want the meaning to be to define the film, it actually kind of dilutes the point that you really want to get to a little bit, because you spent so much time trying to go overboard with you know where these characters are. You're going overboard with being in the headspace of the characters, where it's not always critical to the story.
Speaker 2:Right, 100%. Yeah, I think that really applies to like blending comedy and drama as well, even like the darkest dramas. Like look at every horror movie, right, like a couple laughs in the beginning of it. Right, because that sets the, the tone and like then you have the counter, you know so, like the moments are really sad because you were laughing before and the moments are really funny because you were sad before. Like it's that dichotomy. You know that's why horror movies, you know we love them because it's not just, it's not just torture, right, like even in like saw, you know, like it's like clever and like there's some there might be some like weird laughs, or you know cool moments, but it's not just torture. You know that's. I know that's a weird example to make, but yeah, it's like it's that balance because, like you had said at first, you can have a scene of someone being like man, I'm really sad, you know, I'm just like staring off and like, okay, yeah, we're with them, but if you stay with them for too long and then it's like what are?
Speaker 1:what are we doing? What are we doing, yeah, what are we doing here?
Speaker 2:which, ironically, in dead end dreams there is. There is that moment where they both don't know what's going on. They, they're waiting for the other one and they sit in a moment of silence and we cut back and forth, right, and it's supposed to be like a laugh that they're, and it's like I don't know 15, 20 seconds or whatever. But in the first edit of it, like I thought it was hilarious, like it was like 50 seconds of this silence, you know, and I thought it was really funny and like really funny and like nothing happens. And then I did get the notes where they're like I think it's a little bit too long to sit in silence.
Speaker 2:You know, I was like yes, you're right, because that's the thing too, is it's separating yourself where it's like these are my friends, you know, these are people I know and I worked with, and like this is super funny. But what makes it funny is that I know them, I have a personal relationship with them, but in the film we're not quite there yet, you know, we're not quite there yet to be able to relate to them and think it's funny. That's why, you know, you see, so many people were like you know, my friend is really funny. Like they should do comedy and like they do comedy. It's like, well, they're funny to your friends, but not to the whole right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's yeah, that's definitely a balance of, you know, editing and editing and having an objective perspective as well.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, the audience isn't going to be caught up on what you have been doing. The context they have is what they've been watching.
Speaker 2:Right, it's their own withdrawal to it.
Speaker 1:You know they don't have the subjective take that you do Exactly, exactly. Well, malachi, it's been great getting to know you and hearing about your production and Dead End Dreams. Well, uh, malachi, it's been great getting to know you're hearing about your production, um, and dead in dreams it was.
Speaker 1:I was so happy that it was not a bad movie because I didn't know what I was going to say in this entire time, because when somebody, if somebody like uh, if I see something that like uh, you know somebody wants to, hey, you shouldn't, would you be willing to check this out?
Speaker 2:you know I'd be like, yeah, all right, hopefully it's good, because I don't know how it's going to go otherwise I know 100% what you mean, especially because, like I was I think I was the one that reached out to you you're probably like oh, who the heck is this guy?
Speaker 1:yeah, so funny enough so far on the number of people that have reached out to me on the podcast and I've brought them on. They usually end up to me end up being kind of among the more interesting, because there's always that risk. I know the risk is there being like you know it's, it's not like what. When I saw it was 40 minutes, you know I'm like okay, there was something deliberate at the very least that was being tried to happen.
Speaker 1:Right so right, um, that was. That was a green flag, even though for festivals that's a red flag for me right but my final question to you is what makes filmmaking worth the?
Speaker 2:headaches and the heartbreaks. What makes filmmaking worth? The headaches and heartbreaks? Well, I would say that through film, you're able to display a story and characters that, no matter how specific they are, and even though the the specific things of their stories may not be exactly what happened to you, the more specific you are, ironically, the more relatable it is and people can see themselves in these characters, and I think it's a way to express your own feelings as a creative and put yourself into these characters and whatnot.
Speaker 2:But also as an audience member, you know you can watch a film and realize something about yourself that you hadn't quite realized before, or see things from a new perspective. You know where you're like oh, maybe I'm the jerk you know, or something like that. Or maybe you're like oh, you know, maybe I should forgive you know this person. Or or maybe you're like, oh, you know, maybe I should forgive, you know this person, or whatever. Or maybe you're like, no, I, that person is a jerk. Good thing, I watched this movie, you know, like. I think it's something that can challenge and present different ways of thinking that may not have been considered before Malachi thanks for coming on.
Speaker 2:Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been great.