How to find work in the Industry 2025 #54 w/ Composer Josh Andres

Composer Josh Andrus joins us to share how he carved a real career path from EDM tours to scoring films and video games in today’s AI-driven industry. He reveals how a single DM opened doors, why a Juilliard certificate gave him an edge, and how he balanced income with acoustic sample packs while building real-to-picture credits. Josh breaks down the craft of scoring—spotting scenes, shaping a sonic palette like a color grade, and using silence as design—while explaining how small live elements can elevate a project from “fine” to unforgettable.

We also explore where the industry’s heading: YouTube films, indie games, audio dramas, and short-form content as growing creative frontiers. Packed with insights on portfolio strategy, collaboration, and sustainable income, this episode is a must-listen for anyone looking to break into or level up in modern screen scoring.

Chapters

• 0:00 Opening And Guest Introduction
• 0:47 From Bands To Electronic Music
• 5:24 Touring Highs And The EDM Plateau
• 7:27 Pivoting Into Film And Games
• 10:07 Training, Juilliard, And First Credits
• 13:15 Building Income With Sample Packs
• 17:44 Portfolios, Temp Music, And Rescore Traps
• 22:07 Why Minimal Scores And Budget Realities
• 26:42 Orchestras, MIDI Limits, And Demos
• 29:07 AI, Auditions, And Application Overload
• 34:07 The Future: YouTube, Shorts, And New Media
• 40:14 Craft: Spotting, Motifs, And Palette
• 46:12 Space, Silence, And Restraint
• 49:01 Collaboration, Trust, And Final Advice
• 51:02 Closing Thoughts And Farewell

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the Focal Point Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Riggs. Here I take a deep dive into my personal interests of the hidden craftsmanship, philosophies, and passions behind society's talent. If you're intrigued by artistic nuance, please subscribe and follow on my YouTube channel, Spotify, and Buzzprout. With that being said, let me introduce you to today's guests. Alright, Josh, we are live. We are recording. I thank you for coming on the podcast. How are you?

SPEAKER_00: 0:27

Thanks for finding me, man. I'm excited to I'm excited to chat.

SPEAKER_01: 0:30

Yeah, no, this is just a trick. Uh, we're not going to go through your work. I'm just going to harass you for an hour straight. That's what we're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 0:39

All good, man. All good. I'm going to go. I won't get personal though. Bring out the questions.

SPEAKER_01: 0:43

No, no low, no low lows. Just go ahead and uh introduce yourself and uh what you do and how you got into it to the audience.

unknown: 0:52

Cool.

SPEAKER_00: 0:53

Uh so my name is Josh Andrus. I am a composer and musician. Uh I have been a professional composer and musician for boy, about 15 years now, um, you know, making money out of my music. Um, you know, I started uh in the electronic world, um, you know, releasing electronic records for a while. And then eventually that led me on a path to get into um composition for uh media, uh specifically film and video games. Uh and then some TV stuff. I've I've done some sync licensing and stuff like that, but mostly film and video games. Um yeah, and and uh that's kind of what I've been doing for the last couple of years. It's uh it's it's a very cutthroat business. Um, it's very competitive, uh, but it's something I I thoroughly enjoy. You know, I love making music and and I consider myself, you know, uh fortunate to be able to make a living doing what I like to do.

SPEAKER_01: 1:57

So it's it's uh how long did it take to actually start seeing income uh being produced from what you did?

SPEAKER_00: 2:04

It took a while. So I I I started so I started when I was I I started making music when I was 19, actually. So I I had been in uh like bands and stuff in high school, and I I like rock band. I remember I was in like a punk band, I played guitar, and I actually been playing guitar since I was uh six years old. I'd I'd been playing music for quite some time. I never I honestly didn't know um that to which sounds crazy. Uh I grew up in a really small town, uh, which we were talking about just before the podcast started, uh, that that didn't really have like a music scene per se, right? It's just was really small. And you know, I other than my high school experience, like I didn't know like what a composer or producer or like I didn't understand how music was even made, really. I just thought like, you know, bands went into a studio and they recorded. I didn't understand there was all these other people, you know what I mean, like engineers and producers and all this other stuff, you know. So um, yeah, I didn't really get into music until I left and I and I moved to a larger city and was introduced to uh some some hip-hop artists actually that uh told me what music production was, you know, making beats and stuff like that. I I literally had no idea. And um, you know, that's kind of how that was my intro into it. And that's I started doing that when I was like 19. I didn't really start seeing any money until I actually moved from hip-hop to dance music. I started making EDM right around the EDM uh dance music uh genre really started to grow like right around 2011.

SPEAKER_01: 3:36

That's right when they make it started becoming popular again. I remember that.

SPEAKER_00: 3:39

Yeah, yes, like Dosep Trap, those like subgenres of dance music become super popular. And since I was a hip-hop guy, I actually met uh another producer in Chicago uh who I was there actually for work training because I I had a job working at ATT for a while and they had a corporate office there. And I I just got promoted and I had to go to Chicago for like a month to train. And I started, I was going to some of the clubs there um, you know, uh with some of the other people I was training, and I met I that was the first time I was exposed to dance music was in Chicago. There's this club called Evil Olive, and they had this crazy, they had this crazy party, man. It was called Porn and Chicken, and they literally would show pornography on a screen and serve fried chicken. It was bizarre, but it was freaking packed, and like Diplo would show up to that party. So I can only imagine why the time. Yeah, it's it was wild. Um, and the music, you know, the music actually was was really it was good. It was like it was really cutting edge. Um, you know, for the time, you know, like like I said, trap and dubstep are growing. Uh, and I had been making hip hop anyways, so it was like very similar to trap. The nice thing about it to me was like, wait, I can put out instrumental records and have to rely on like artists because you know it's difficult for a producer to make a living, especially you know, when you talk about splits and stuff like that, and you have to chase people down for money and make sure you're getting paid for beats and all this kind of stuff. So it was, it was, it was, you know, I was like, wait, I can just like put these out. I am the artist, I don't have to get somebody to do you know vocals or anything like that on it. And I started, you know, releasing records that way. Um, and that's when I actually started to make money. And I would say uh it started to kind of pick up a little bit, and I ended up moving from I quit my job when it started to pick up from AT ⁇ T and I moved to New York um in uh 2013. And uh yeah, it was it was uh, you know, that's when I actually started to kind of see like significant income. Uh I started to get featured on blogs and different things like that. Uh 2015 was probably a huge year for me, I or my biggest year in my career, or one of the biggest years of my career, at least as far as just as an individual artist and uh producer. I had a couple dance records start on Billboard, millions of streams. I was touring, we did 32 shows that summer. I played EDC, played some really big shows um all over the country. And you know, that's when I really started to see kind of that, you know, the income. But like around the time like 2015, 2016 is also when the the bubble started to pop. You know what I mean? It started to deflate a little bit, and it was getting dance music was getting really saturated. There's a lot of people doing it, and it was it was much harder, you know, and this is kind of around the time too, I would say, like the a lot of the news outlets and how people consumed, you know, Instagram was is was getting you know, it's traction at that time. And I think that um, you know, it was as far as like as a as like a mu uh a media outlet, and a lot of the things like the blogs and stuff like that that I was used to, like shopping music to blogs to get featured, you know, to have my music marketed, it they just weren't the same. And so things were changing, you know, like in within the industry. And so you I you know it started to be more about like, you know, how can I how can I get my music in social media videos, like reels and all that kind of stuff, you know. I mean, that was starting to become popular and it just was different. So it was around the time that um, you know, uh I had actually had a uh a partner that I was doing dance music with. He was an incredible artist. Uh, and he basically just told me one day, he's like, dude, I just don't want to do this anymore. It's not a good lifestyle. I I have to, you know, I I'm I have a family because he just had a kid and he was like, I just can't, I can't do it anymore. And that was kind of like, you know, lights on for me as far as, okay, maybe this is time that I change, you know, I mean, maybe this is time that I make my exit. And that's kind of when I started to like start, I started to study dance or um, excuse me, composition for film and media, uh, you know, and and seeing if it was a viable career path for me, because you know, I'd at this point I already been doing music for a while and I had a lot of connections within and within the industry, you know, that I had meant doing dance music. So, but you know, completely opposite of what uh you know I was doing, you know, I like I said, I played in band, like I played the trumpet, uh, played some, you know, I played guitar, I could read music, you know, but up to this point, I had never written sheet music. Like, you know, I didn't, you know, I could read it, but I had never sat down with the you know, pen and paper or anything and and write it down. And there was at the time there was software that could do a lot of it like there is now, but it's nowhere near what what it's like now, you know. Um, so it it it became, you know, an interesting step in a direction because basically I lost a lot of the popularity that I had built, you know, to do this pivot because it was complete like complete career change. And so, you know, that was kind of a drop down in revenue. But over the last couple of years, I was I've been able to build that back up again. And I'm you know, I'm now in a pretty comfortable spot, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 8:44

So where did you meet the uh connections when you were doing the when you were in the more involved in the music scene for film and media?

SPEAKER_00: 8:53

Well, so I had decided to, you know, basically around the time I I started to take, you know, watched YouTube videos. I read a lot of books, I looked online, I you know, started to kind of get things, and my goal was to try to get into a uh a course. Like I wanted to take, see if I could go back to school. You know, I never I had never actually finished my bachelor's degree. I I never needed to because I started making money off music and I I just decided that I didn't need to go that route. And I have some credits, you know, and I but it I it was something that I never, you know, I just didn't need to finish it. So I was like, okay, maybe maybe I'll go back to school. Maybe this is like, you know, because it's definitely more the traditional route, you know what I mean? Like scoring the picture is pretty difficult, actually. You know, it's it's one thing to like see a picture and be inspired by it and write something for it, which a lot of artists can do, you know, that that make music, uh, but cutting to the picture is the difficult part, you know, changing time signatures, speeding up and slowing down tempos, making sure things fit within the frame of what the director's trying to do. Um, you know, that's that's the kind of stuff that I really didn't know anything about. Uh so what I what I did is I studied for a little while. And then to answer your question, I I uh actually applied for a certificate program at the Juilliard School. Uh and I like I said, I was living in New York at the time. I didn't really think it was possible that I would get in uh because they only accepted six percent of applicants that got into the program. Oh goodness. Uh and and I wasn't, you know, this was a graduate certificate program. So for me, they the the a bachelor's degree wasn't required because of the certificate program, but it was preferred. So I was like, there's probably not, I'm probably not gonna get in. But I'm like, you know what? I'm gonna do it anyways. Uh so I studied really hard. I I had to write a bunch of scores, which is this was really like my first time writing scores and that kind of thing, to like, you know, like actually writing pieces to sheet music. And I did all that, I submitted to the school. Uh I had like four interviews, and I actually got in. Uh, and I was I think and I couldn't believe it when it happened. And I I remember thinking to myself, like, okay, now that I'm in, I can't really be a poser now. I really gotta try to figure this out, you know. So I I studied even more, but through that program, I I met a lot of people, you know, and started to kind of reach out, you know, because I now had the Juilliard name attached to me, I was reaching out to people. You know what I mean? I was reaching out to uh say, hey, you know, I'm a film composer. This is where I studied at, this is where I got my certificate at, blah, blah, blah. And uh, that was kind of how I really built up and I was applying um early on to like pretty much anybody who would let me score, I was just doing it for free. You know, I was like, okay, you know, I'm luckily I'm in a position, and and by the way, I guess I should also take a step back to explain that in addition to when I stopped doing the the electronic music stuff and I was saying I made the pivot, one thing that I wanted to do because I knew that eventually making acoustic music or or you know using live instruments, not not electronic stuff, but you know, any kind of acoustic music, I started making sample packs. And um, you know, I was lucky to be teaching at a school in New York at the time called Scratch DJ Academy. And I was teaching music production there, I was teaching Ableton. And there was a company that was just starting this pretty well known now. It's called TrackLib. And TrackLib had come into the school to explain that they were starting this sample clearance service. Uh, and they were basically talking to kids, or well, not kids, I should say, students, excuse me. There were a lot of adults, adult and kids, a lot of students about uh sampling, you know what I mean, and clearing samples, the importance of clearing samples. Uh, you know, Scratch DJ Academy, I had I was working with hip-hop artists, house DJs, all this kind of stuff, and all these people, but primarily sample-based musicians, right? They're they may use some synthesizers and stuff like in that enableton, but it's primarily sample-based. Uh, and they were trying to market themselves as like an alternative display. Um, so I had, I had, long story short, basically met with them, had a really good conversation, said, Hey, I'm I'm doing these sounds now. A lot of stuff I'm doing is acoustic. I'm really trying to get into you know being a composer, not just a producer. I really want to compose and and work with live artists and all that kind of stuff. They gave me a shot to do some work on their site, uh, which ended up doing very well. So fast forward now, it's kind of a side caveat caveat or side side side side quest. Yeah, side quest. Um, but I was I was generating money through samples. So I was able to support myself, you know, off the samples that I was selling, and I was still teaching part-time. Uh, and so basically, I was basically, look, anybody who will give me a job that I can build a portfolio to show what I'm capable of doing, that's what I'm gonna do. You know, um, I I will say that I think, you know, and this is this is kind of maybe a hot take, uh, but I do feel like it is a lot of people think that they should get paid for their first job. Not that I'm against that. If you can work it out, totally go for it. I think that's awesome if you can do it. But you should also keep an open mind, especially if it's for a job that may be like in your wheelhouse genre-wise, right? So, like, let's say, for example, you know, you're really good at making like you know, like hip-hop, right? You're or making electronic music, and uh and a director comes along and says, Hey, like I'm doing this, the score, I want to be all like uh rap and and in you know rap music, right? Or whatever. Those are kind of rare, right? So in those situations, you may say, okay, I I probably should take this if I can get the opportunity because it's something that I'm comfortable in it, it's something that I know I can do quick, and it's something that I could I can do efficiently and really showcase my skill. Because the biggest thing that I run into is that people want to see they they they want to see your portfolio, they want to see what have you done, right? And honestly, you know, what I've what I've come to notice, and it's kind of shifting right now within the industry, is that the portfolio itself, like they don't want to see rescores. Like, if you're rescoring scenes for certain movies and stuff like that, I've had super bad luck with that stuff. I would highly advise against it.

SPEAKER_01: 15:16

I saw that you did some of that stuff and I scrolled through it. I'm like, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_00: 15:18

I did pretty good. I did early, I did early on. Yes, I had really bad luck with that, and I wouldn't recommend it. Now, not and I'm talking about specific scenes from movies. Now, if you're doing like trailers or like the the intro credits or stuff like that, that's a little bit different. I I think that usually you can get away with that kind of stuff. But if you're doing specific scenes uh that from a film, uh you really have to be careful with that. Um, you know, and and I think that uh a lot of people do that as a as as a way to get in. But the the thought process, which I don't agree with by the way, but the thought process is at least a lot of directors that I talked with, that you're seeing that and you're pulling inspiration from that artist, so you you can't pull your own inspiration from that scene, if that makes sense. So basically they're saying, because you're so you're hearing what this other person did, you're influenced by that. So what if I give you something with no music at all? Which, which by the way, uh, you know, spoiler alert, that doesn't happen. Every every director will give you temp music that they put into their film, you know what I mean, where they'll say, because usually what they're doing is they're editing to that, you know what I mean? They're doing cuts to the particular scene, you know what I mean? So like they're editing to the temp music. So, you know, a lot of times as a composer, you'll get a piece of work and the the the tempo or BPM may already be established for that particular piece, right? Because they've temp they've cut it to temp music. So it's like you you have kind of a place to start, which is pretty much what rescoring is. But that's been like, you know, my experience with that is that usually that doesn't help. So if you can get your hands on like short films, anything like that early on, highly, highly, highly recommend. Um so you know the the the the the heart the thing you got you gotta do is go out, meet directors, meet people who are are are working on projects, find out, you know. I think I think too, like you gotta think to yourself like, am I do I want to focus on video games? Do I want to focus on TV? Do I want to focus on mu on film? Obviously, have a hope in mind for if things come up because usually if you go into one, you end up doing the other one that you didn't even think you were gonna do. But just really focus, try to focus on what you want to do at that particular time, right? Just to get the credits. Um, and that's how you meet people. You know, the the the the relationships these days are just super important, man. It's just it's it is honestly. I I was just telling my wife this the other day, it is so competitive right now. I have never in my years of of composing, you know, seen so I mean you'll go to try to submit for a movie online right now, and people are getting 500 applications. Uh, I I did a film called Badman Rising that's coming out next year, and we finished it. Uh, and when I was talking to the director one night, he's like, dude, I had a thousand applications. He's like, but you were the only you were the only, he was, you know why you got the job? You were the only one that messaged me on Instagram and said, Your film looks awesome. I want to be a part of it. I think it's so simple, though. It does, it does. And it actually was, you know what? And I and to be honest with you, that's before I knew anything about the job. And this goes back to what I was just saying, I was ready to score it regardless of what the pay. And it ended up being like a really well-paying job, actually. To be honest, he had a he had a he was a Canadian director, his name's Phil. He he has a company there, and and they got a grant from the Canadian government to shoot this film because his last film did really well. Um, and uh it looked incredible. It was very they used the red cameras, it was very cinematic, it looked awesome. And the cool thing was he wanted like a John Carpenter style score, you know, with synthesizers. And I was like, oh, that's like a rarity. And that's why that's why I was like super down to do it. Because, you know, as much as I enjoy doing orchestra music, it's nice to kind of step outside your comfort zone and kind of do something that's different, you know. So um yeah, that that particular situation, he was like, You were really the only one that messaged me that like cared about my vision, you know, and I think I think that's also part of something that um as a composer that I see uh specifically like with a lot of young composers that come up is you know, when you when you it's different than creating music, right? So like when when you start to take on a role as a composer, they already have an idea of what they want the sound to be. You shouldn't really try to force down, and by they, I mean the director, you shouldn't really try to force that sound down that director's throat. You really have to listen to what they want to do. Because when I was starting out, that's one thing that I struggled with, is I always want to get really musical and have all these like really cool things and really show my chops, you know, this is what I'm capable of doing. And a lot of times it it's the more minimalistic things that end up making the final cut, uh, just because it it's film first, obviously. It's film, dialogue, sound effects, all that kind of stuff that uh that you know help tell the story versus the music, you know, in that particular situation.

SPEAKER_01: 20:22

And instead of like more old Hollywood orchestral scores.

SPEAKER_00: 20:27

Yeah, you know, I do feel like that's the trend. Uh I do feel like I do feel like it's I've had many conversations with other composers about this. I really feel like our jobs almost got more very sound design-esque, you know, where we're kind of more or less kind of zimmer. Right. Yeah, I mean, you know, this minimalistic thing, you know, it's very, it's very minimal. Um you know, and I I I I I think it's kind of a twofold thing, personally. I I think part of it is is that it minimalists doesn't get in the way of the story, right? So I think that's one part of it, uh, which which you know a lot of directors love, obviously. But also I think another big part of it is budgets. There's not the budget anymore to have a large orchestra. You know, a lot of things are going direct to streaming, uh, orchestras are expensive. You know, you're they they you know, it could cost$30,000 for a day's worth of work with an orchestra because essentially you're paying 50, 60 musicians to be there, you know, and then you got an engineer and you got the recording studio and all this kind of stuff. So, you know, I think what you'll see a lot, and you can you know turn on a TV and you can see it or watch a movie, is if you do have an orchestra score, you may have a full orchestral theme where like it's got this massive orchestra and it's the main theme for this for the film or what or whatever. But then, you know, throughout the film for the cueing where you have the different scenes, it's it's very scaled down. You might have just strings or just brass, or maybe you have synthesizers in there that are kind of filling that particular space, and I think that's become more common. But I also think to go back to your point, I I I do think that you are finding that directors aren't doing these big elaborate scores anymore, more importantly, because it just it I think it's kind of a um uh it gets in the way of what they're trying to do. And I also think that it certain films they they call for that, but then certain films don't. And I think it's also being able to recognize that, you know, like as far as like I can I can tell you like for for this Bagman movie that I finished, um he was, you know, the music he had sent me, he he had actually said to me, the director, Phil, he said, you know, I think I think music in Hollywood sucks right now. He's like, it's terrible. He was like, I I he goes, I just think it's very boring, no one remembers it. And I think this is something that needs to come up, and it's good to have a director that understands that. But for those, for those out there uh that are ever in a situation, sometimes it's also important to explain to the director that the music is a marketing tool. You know, for example, if I go to Universal Studios and I walk in the gates and they're playing Harry Potter, you know, from John Williams, I I might think to myself, wow, like I haven't seen that movie in forever, or like, you know, whatever it may be. You know what I mean? Star Wars, for example. These these these themes have been they've become synonymous with the movie, and they kind of help sell the movie in a sense, or you may maybe make you go back and watch it, which generates revenue. Uh, so I think it's also to explain to somebody that, you know, totally you understand. I want to make your story the best, I don't want the best it can be. I don't want to get in the way, but let me enhance it. Let me help you, you know. Let me let me try to to be a uh you know collaborator here and really show you what we can do. Um, so I think if you get to that stage, then the if if they still decide not to go that route, usually it's budget. Usually it's budget. And and and to be honest with you, I think we also have a made a really big problem where because of budget, a lot of uh demo music uh is being done with MIDI. And I can tell you right now, I've had the luxury of working with multiple orchestras. MIDI does not sound like a real orchestra, there's not even close, you know. And so I think what happens is is when you send a big elaborate piece, which is normally the demo temp track, you know, the temporary demo that you want to show the director, they're hearing something that even if you spend time, you know, doing the best you can to make it sound as close to an orchestra as possible, it doesn't have that magic of what an actual orchestra is. And I think if you go back to, like you said, you know, in the golden years of Hollywood, where you had these big orchestral scores, there used to be orchestras on call where essentially, you know, there's stories of of composers writing a piece and then walking into another room where they have 40 musicians waiting to play a demo, you know what I mean, to show someone, you know, and that this obviously was before what we have now with the MIDI tools. Uh, but um, you know, I think that's that's part of it. So they're they're they're hearing something that doesn't capture that magic that you as a composer might know because you've had the opportunity to work it before, you know what I mean? So they they so they they they'll be like, ah, I don't really don't hear the difference. I don't really think we should pay for this. Let's try to do this, you know. So that's that's that's a situation where you know, I think you as a composer have to kind of do some things sometimes that you may not want to do. So I can tell you, like, for example, uh I just did a video game called Blind Warrior. It's on Steam right now. And the funny thing about it was is the director of the game, it's like a ghost is Tushima style game. It's by an Indonesian company. Uh, they're doing great work. They the director was like, Yeah, I think we're good with the the demo track. And I said, No, dude, I'm like, trust me. I was like, let me let me get an orchestra to record this you were personally a tell you right now. Well, you know, it's like it's like I because I know the difference. Like I said, like I've had I have been very lucky that I've worked for some incredible musicians, and I and I told him, um, so I paid, I actually took money out of my money that was paid to do the score to record the theme with the orchestra to show him the potential of what it would be, which actually ended up paying off. And now he wants to do the whole thing with the orchestra, which will be better for my portfolio and stuff, anyways. You know what I mean? So it's like those situations, I think a lot of time, you know, you really have to think to yourself, what's what's it's like you know, it's like they always say, like you have to read between the lines, right? Like if somebody says no, they may tell you a reason, but there's probably a deeper reason than that, right? And I think that a lot of the time what's happening is is is the demo that you're trying to show what this full orchestral musical score can do, either A is too much where it scares the director away, or B, it just doesn't sound as good for him to be like, okay, yeah, let's let's let's you know take an extra 15, 20 grand out of the budget to go record an orchestra score, you know what I mean? Which is a lot, you know, it makes sense. Um, so yeah, I think yeah, that takes your question of long, long-way answer. But I think that's that's kind of where we're at right now as far as music.

SPEAKER_01: 27:16

Well, I'm hoping that the transition um you know in the coming years goes back, honestly, and uh to a more orchestral score because we've seen everything visually, I think, at this point. We've seen the peak of what CGI looks like, of what explosions, of what sci-fi elements could be. And it's miss and and the novelty now is that emotional undertone that sells you what this story is going to do for you if you go and consume the content, you know, whether it be video games or media. Because we've seen everything at this point. And yeah, when we go to pay for something, we're going to pay for something that's novel.

unknown: 27:52

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 27:53

Or at least that feels subjectively novel to us.

SPEAKER_00: 27:56

Right. And I and I and I think that's a great point. And I think that, you know, it's also it also comes down to consumer. You know, it's I it's unfortunate, but you know, if, for example, you know, if if a score is done and a movie's successful, the package itself is looked at as okay, this was successful, and we got away with it because we only spent 100K for the composer and the entire score and his team and all that kind of stuff with the synthesizer score, where it would have cost us 250 to do the orchestra because we had to fly to London and do it at Abbey Road and all this kind of stuff, right? So their their thought process is well, if if it which, you know, from a business perspective, I I kind of understand. You know, they're like, okay, we don't really need to do that because it didn't make that big of a difference. Because I do think, like you, and you kind of alluded to this a little bit, you know, the John Williams, the Jerry, you know, Goldsmith, these these people that uh and you know, Morricone that made incredible orchestral scores, they we don't really have that person, right, that can do that. Because, for example, like a Hans Zimmer, right? Which I mean, Hans is obviously incredible, we all know that. He's a legend, but even his music, you know, he's openly talked about how a lot of times he's layering things with MIDI and working with a smaller orchestra, you know. So I think it's it's one of those things where the industry itself doesn't want to adapt or or or spend the extra money uh to those things to make it you know sound better to you know to the composer, because the average consumer doesn't care as much about it. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But if they do, it's not as voiced as much. You know what I mean? People don't talk about it as much, I guess. You know. So I I agree with you, man. I I really do hope that it it changes. And I and I think I I do think though, I I I one thing that I do think is we've already had John Williams. We don't need him again, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01: 29:55

Well, I don't know about that. I quite enjoy John Williams.

SPEAKER_00: 29:58

No, and I and I understand that one of Saying is that you can get John Williams music by listening to John Williams. There needs to be somebody else that is comes along now that does something new, does something fresh, right? And can pull inspiration from John Williams, right? For sure. But it needs the reason that I mean, you know, Steven Spielberg talks about this with about John specifically, where he thought when he brought John on that orchestra music in Hollywood was already starting to die. You know what I mean? And he brought him on to do these projects with him. And John really influenced a whole generation of composers, yeah, multi-generations of composers to come and start making orchestral music for film again, you know? And so I think we're kind of in the same position here where we need somebody to do something that is going to be unique, right? And for Hollywood to say, okay, this is something fresh, this is something new. We should spend the money on this, you know what I mean, in the same situation. Like I said, not to downplay John because he's a legend. He's one of my favorite composers ever he ever he inspires me. You know what I mean? Um, I even got to work for his family for a while. Side note when I moved to LA. Uh oh, really? But um uh, which was cool. He had a philanthropy project for education, which was really cool. Um, but you know, it's it's I I do think we just need to we need to figure out what that new person is. Is it is it a form of hybrid? Is it is it synthesizers mixed with orchestral music? Is it is it just orchestral music by itself? Is it jazz? Maybe maybe the next thing is like a jazz artist that does something crazy that that that's great. You know, I think it's just as as listeners and as as people who you know love movies and and and love uh music for media, we just have to figure out what that what that next person's gonna be. And I think that you know it's kind of like it's it's for example, I'll I'll tell you just a quick side note, Danny Elfman, one of my favorite composers, love Danny Elfman, right? I mean, everything he's done, like even the stuff he just recently did for Wednesday, great stuff, right? Danny Elfman has a specific a particular style of what he sounds like. And I watched a film the other day that uh it sounded very Elfman-esque to me, and it did not match the movie at all. Oh yeah, I was just even my wife, who doesn't even really pay attention to that stuff, said the music didn't match. You know?

SPEAKER_01: 32:19

Um, like two stories, like two different styles of stories were just colliding.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

Yeah, it's like exactly correct, correct. Like the music was kind of portraying one side, one style like of like feeling, but it really didn't match what was happening on the screen, in our opinion, you know. I would say the same thing could be said about like the mo the the recent uh Spike Lee movie highest to the lowest. There were some like very like big swelling orchestra pieces in there that standalone they would be beautiful. I'm not discounting the work, the work is great. I just don't think it matches that particular film. And and granted, that's my opinion, you know, like somebody's opinion may be different. Obviously, it got past somebody who in the editing phase or the producer, but I also think that's like something that we have to consider, you know, when are those when are those scores right? Like when should they be used, right? And I and I and I don't think that we're in a place where they shouldn't be used at all, but I think that because it's hard now to be able to get those scores, how are we using it? So if somebody comes through and says, we have a budget to do a 60 or 70 piece orchestra, how you know, as a composer, it's your responsibility to figure out how can I use this in a way that will still match the story, you know what I mean? It's not just don't just do it to do it, you know what I mean? Like I think that's part of the thing. And I think sometimes people try to, you know, to to to um to copy their idols, and you know, which is which is fine. A lot of great artists have have learned and built on other things that other artists have done in the past, is how we are where we are. But it's like I think you have to try to say, okay, how can I make this unique? How can I do something new and exciting that hasn't been done before that's going to inspire a whole new generation? That's that's that's that's what I think is important.

SPEAKER_01: 33:58

What do you think is actually contributing more to the competitive nature of today's current marketplace? Do you think there's too many artists or there's just not enough work?

SPEAKER_00: 34:09

Uh oh, that's a tough one.

SPEAKER_01: 34:12

Because it could be a you know a combination thereof, but you know, there's gonna be one or the other more so.

SPEAKER_00: 34:17

Sure. I so I think there's plenty of work.

unknown: 34:20

Really?

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

I think there's plenty of work. I do. Um, there's a lot of work out there. Now, when I say work, is it enough for somebody to sustain a livelihood? Because a lot of these jobs are peaks and valleys. You you know, you may go months without a job and then score a uh uh, you know, get a job where you make you know$30,000,$40,000 off of a film, you know, that after six or seven months of zero work, you know what I mean, of trying. Um, I think the biggest thing that the one of the toughest things right now, in my opinion, is how easy AI has made it to apply for things, right? And so I feel like the biggest thing is you can go on and submit, you know, for a job, uh, whether it's you know advertised on the on like a discussion board or like on there's a site called Twine that has stuff out there that you can do. LinkedIn sometimes posts composer opportunities, that kind of thing. And it's literally they just get slammed, like you know, thousand people. And it's just because now people can do it from their phone, they can click and they can do it right away. And actually, it's actually funny. I was having this conversation with another composer this morning, actually, where I said, I also think we're in a time where everybody tries to be a jack of all trades. And a lot of that is because of the the the current state of being a composer, right? You're trying to get any gig you can because you're trying to make a living, you know, you're trying to get paid, you know. So I think what happens is some people, a lot of people apply for jobs that maybe they aren't qualified for. And what I mean by what I mean by that, and all due respect to all the composers out there, is that, for example, if if if you've never written a jazz record in your life and somebody calls for a jazz score, why are you applying for that score? You see what I'm saying? Because chances are you're probably gonna get passed on anyways. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I'm just saying you're basically for somebody who might only listen to so many applications, right? They may not get to somebody who could be the next, you know, John Williams or whatever it may be, right? Because of that particular situation. So I think it's just also, you know, this is also, I am a firm believer in something that I preach that I feel like you should really try to become a specialist in a particular style, right? So, like, you know, for me, one thing that I've really focused on is usually I like to write very dark music. And I find myself I get I get hired a lot to do like sci-fi and horror stuff. That's like my thing, right? And I think it's just a of who I am, you know. Um, and so like, you know, knowing that going into those opportunities, for example, somebody I and I've passed on many of them. If I see something that's like, oh, you know, we're we need a composer for a kid's show, right? Uh I may pass on that. Yeah, right, because I just don't think it's great. Now, somebody out there can write great music for that and probably make a fuck ton of money, to be honest with you, between you and I, but they're not they're they're you know, it's not me, right? And so I try not to apply for those particular roles. I try not to be involved in that kind of thing because I hope that maybe one less person might give somebody else an opportunity. I I do think about that, you know, it is it is important. So I think that's also part of the reason right now that you're seeing it's very difficult to get a job as a composer is it's because it's saturated, not in the sense of there's not enough jobs, because there are enough jobs. It just has to do with qualifications, right? Like, are are do you feel you're qualified to do that? Because at the same time, too, there's a lot of people who don't, and I hate saying this, but it's and I'm and I'll kind of explain it, but don't have the training to do it, right? So, like they they make beats or whatever, and they'll say, you know what, I want to get into making film music. And you know, they'll start tinkering around with some things on their own, and they can make a decent demo and they'll apply for those jobs, but they've never actually cut the picture, right? So they don't, like I was telling you, you don't know about time signature changes or or automation to speed up and slow down tempo and all that kind of stuff. And and the deadlines that you have to meet sometimes are crazy. Um, you know, you might have a day or two to redo, you know, 10 minutes of music, you know, which is crazy, you know. So I think it's sometimes they don't realize that. So I think you're also fighting against people like that who maybe shouldn't be applying for that particular job at that particular point. Not that I don't think they should try for, go for it, in a sense of maybe that me instead of like if you're a beginner composer, try working with another composer, try collaborating with another composer on that particular job, right? Say, hey, I just I just saw this job go up. I would love for us to work on this together. Let's submit a joint demo, right? Because to be honest with you, you like Bagman, for example, Bagman was like like almost 80 minutes of music that I did for that film. And it got to a point to a point where it's called Bagman Rising, it's coming out next year. I did 80 minutes of of music for that film. It's like a thriller horror film. Okay, it was crazy. And I could have used and to be honest with you, I I did at points. We he pushed it back for a year, that's why I decided not to do it. But if I would have had my original six-month deadline, I would have 100% got somebody to help me with that project because it was just too much. You know, I mean it's just too much music, you know. So it's it's um, I think you really have to kind of think to yourself too, like what in those positions or when you're applying for those roles. Am I putting myself in the best position for my career as well? Because you don't want to do something and then not deliver because that's bad reputation, you know?

SPEAKER_02: 39:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00: 39:45

So I think that's also part of it. I think there's a lot of hobbyists out there uh who are trying to make a new career, which I fully support that 100%. I hope that somebody can do what they love. I hope everybody can do their passion. I really do support that. But I I would say if you're just starting, searching for opportunities to work with another composer, I think is the best way to do it. And and it would also alleviate a lot of the stress on the system right now, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01: 40:09

Are there any things that aren't uh composing related or music related that you think are putting external uh stress on the industry that's causing a bit of a backlog?

SPEAKER_00: 40:21

Budgets, 100% streaming, streaming right now, especially. Um, you know, it it you know, for example, you can you like Apple, you know, Apple TV is is ten dollars a month, and they're they put you know multi-million dollar films on there, you know, and they and I think if I remember correctly, they they only have like 20 million subscribers or something like that. It's like some it's like a really small number compared to Netflix, which is wild. So they're actually losing money on you know on their service. Uh Amazon, same exact what, same exact thing, you know. Um, and and it gets crazy too, because we're also, in a sense, fighting against royalty-free stuff. I can I'll give you a perfect example. This literally just happened to me. Um, I had a lunch meeting with somebody who worked at Audible, uh, the book book uh app. Um I love that app. It gets me going through the day. Yeah, that's awesome, man. So one thing that they're starting to do is they're starting to do like audio dramas, which I think are awesome, by the way. Somebody's a huge Bernard Herman fan, and it reminds me of like the old school like radio dramas, you know. And so they're starting to do audio dramas.

SPEAKER_01: 41:30

Like War of the Windsor.

SPEAKER_00: 41:32

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. So he he was like, you know, he he's he's a creative director there, and he was like, I'm a big fan of your music, I really like what you do. He was like, you know, uh, it'd be great if maybe we could he he wanted to collab on some stuff because he does sound design, he also does like um he basically is the audio director. And he was like, So I have this idea for this this book that we're thinking about turning into an audio drama. He was like, check it out, tell me what you think. So I I listened to the first chapter. I said, Oh, this is gonna be great. He said, Okay, I got a meeting this week. He's like, We're gonna, we're gonna, I'll bring it up in the meeting about doing an original score. Well, he's he told me that they decided that they want to just use loops, royalty-free stuff. No, so I think that's I think that's also part of it, yeah. Why not? Because if if you think about it, right? So if you think about it, if you're somebody who's trying to save money for your business, right? Your why would you not use something? If you could find something good enough that fits in there that you don't have to pay, you know, because for example, uh for for an audiobook, usually, or like with a big company like Amazon or doing a film for Apple TV, you can charge anywhere from$500 to a thousand dollars per minute of music. It gets it gets it can get very, very expensive very quick, right? So if if if you know there's a library service out there that can essentially deliver royalty-free stuff, right? Or or pre-cleared music for film and TV, which is also a big thing, uh for smaller fees, you can use that in that particular situation, right? So it's not even it's not even just like these companies don't have enough money for it, because of course they do, and I think that's what everybody says, which is they're right, but it's also because why would they? You know what I mean? For for example, right? So if you know, if you have enough money, like let's say you have enough money to, you know, buy like a like let's say like a video game, right? So let's say you have enough money to buy a video game. Like I tell you, like, I'm a big gamer, I play Battlefield 6. Battlefield 6 just came out$100 for the premium service,$70 for the the regular one. Of course, the hundred dollars is gonna give me a little bit more, but I'm like, yeah, you know what? I really don't need that. I'll just do the one for 70 bucks. So they lost$30 for me, right? That's kind of the situation I'm in. Could I afford it? Yeah, of course I can, but I'm not going to because I don't I don't need it. You know what I mean? And that's kind of the situation. This goes back to what I was saying about the scores now, with a lot of them sounding the same, and we need like the next John Williams. What I'm saying is, what are composers doing to like really make themselves sound like they need to be part of this, right? What why do I need to be part of this? What can I do to enhance your story, right? And so, you know, I had a conversation with this creative director. He's he's awesome, he's a great guy. Uh, and we're we're gonna continue working together, and something pops up down the line, great, you know, but it well, no harm, no foul. I I I've been there before, I understand, you know, it's it's it's all good. But I'm just saying those are the type of things that we're up against, you know, and and like say AI is only making that worse. You know, I I personally know composers now who are have worked on some big video games, I can tell you, uh that use AI to shop demos and have gotten jobs because of that.

SPEAKER_01: 44:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_00: 44:52

Where they'll they'll they'll say, okay, generate me 10 cues, and they'll push a button. And and and so instead of because a lot of times it'll happen um for the for the listeners that may not know, uh, is usually when you apply for a job, you know, through whatever, it they'll narrow it down to like 10 people and they'll say, Okay, here's a scene. We want you to score the scene, and and we're gonna pick the best one to do the film, right? That's usually how it works. Right. That just kind of it's like an audition, right? Uh so but that takes time, you know what I mean? So for example, I may take a day or two doing this two-minute scene, because obviously I want to just have the best that I can, you know, I gotta mix it and I gotta master it, I gotta build a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01: 45:32

Well, it takes a lot of skill to be able to do that. Oh, totally. A lot of time years that goes into the just.

SPEAKER_00: 45:38

Sometimes it's more for more people, right? Yo, you're right. Totally, you're totally right. And so what happens is is you know, when you're trying to get a lot of jobs, if you're like, let's say you apply and you and you have three auditions, right? So now you think you have to prioritize because basically, usually the auditions, man, like and and for I did one recently, it was two days. They gave people two days to score a minute and 30 seconds, minute and a half scene, they send it back. And and and honestly, they're trying to weed out people. That's literally what they're trying to do, and which makes sense because they may say it may be 30 people auditioning for the job. So it's like, well, if we can rip if we can get rid of half, it'll be 15, right? Um and so you're you're up against that because now some composer may go to like Ulio, for example, which is an online uh AI service, and generate the, you know, for example, they'll say, you know, because usually with a score, sometimes, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, but usually the director will send a temp track and you can see who it is. It may say James Horner or whoever it may be, right? John Williams, whatever. And so you can say to Udio, generate me uh a minute and 30 second clip in this particular style, right? And it'll generate 10 tracks that look like that. And you can do 10 different things, and then you, you know, if you're, for example, somebody who has a really good uh background in like sampling, can go through and enabled in and make it line up, you know what I mean? And there's your demo, right? And it may take them an hour or two to do that versus somebody working on something for two days, right? So then they can hit all those deadlines at the same time for all those different auditions that they got, right? And I see it, I see why, and I know these people that do it, they're they're very talented individuals. It's not that they couldn't compose it, it's just that they're trying to save themselves time because they basically are like, you know, a day or two that I put into this, if I don't get the job, I just wasted a day or two, you know, doing whatever. Because, for example, if you you know, this is how it usually is with auditions too. Usually with an audition, you're you're creating music to a particular scene, which means that you're you're cueing it to a particular scene and cutting it to a particular scene, so it's not going to fit a different scene later on. Sure, you may be able to retrofit it for something else that comes in, you know what I mean? But for the most part, it has specific cut points for like things that are happening on the screen or whatever it may be, so you may not be able to reuse that. So it's like, you know, that takes extra time. So it's just like I think a lot of the guys now that are uh doing it, we're we're up against that. We're up against that as well. Not only are we up against the budgets, not only are we up against the competitive nature, but we also have the AI, uh, people being able to submit demos super fast. Um and and and and you know, if you think about it, if I'm a director and I get 500 applications, I mean, just think of the fatigue associated with that, especially if the first 10 or 15 applications. Yeah, I mean, you think about the first 10, 15 applications you go through are not even close to what you're looking for, you know, and and sometimes the directors bring it out of themselves, of course, because they don't really say what you know the style or whatever it is. They'll just say, Oh, I'm doing a horror film and we want an orchestral score. It doesn't say like in the style of you know, Jerry Goldsmith or whoever, it's just it just it just basically says this, you know, horror score, you know, orchestral horror score, which can mean anything, you know. And so I think a lot of times they do it to themselves, but like, you know, that's kind of what they're up against. So it gets to a point where you may only listen to the first hundred applications, and that's happened to me quite a bit. It's happened to me quite a bit where I've sent in an application, and I usually what I'll do for my demo, I actually have um so or for my portfolio, I actually I use SoundCloud links, A, because one, people anybody can listen to it, right? But B, more importantly, I can track it and I can see who's listening and I can see where they're listening. And I didn't know that. Many, many, many times where no one listened to my demo, you know, and they'll pick they'll pick somebody, you know, and um I applied for a staff composer job, another one back in like June of this year, and I noticed that they didn't listen to my demo. So I uh one day I was on LinkedIn and I actually found the hiring manager for the job. It was for this game called Poppy's Playtime, which is pretty big uh horror game. And I I had messaged him and he was really nice. And he was like, I'm gonna be honest with you, man. He was like, We got like 3,000 applications for this job. He's like, I we couldn't listen to them all. He's like, I'm uh he goes, I'm gonna guess we probably didn't even listen to yours. And I was like, No, I could tell you, I could tell you didn't. I told him because I can track it. And he was like, Yeah, he goes, it just it just was overwhelming. And he was like, We ended up actually going with a staff composer that we'd worked with in the past who offered him a full-time position. So it's just like I think those are some of the things that we're dealing with right now. It's not it's not that the jobs aren't there, it's just that also, for example, you know, let's say you have a there's another thing to think about. Let's say you have a gig you're working on for a movie, but you know in a month it's going to be up. You're gonna start applying for other gigs, even though you're already on a film. You see what I'm saying? I could try to tie it over, right? So it's not even like a lot of times you're applying like everybody's jobless looking for a job. A lot of times you're fighting with people who are are producers, like I said, who may be like, Yeah, maybe I'll get into film composition. That's one. The other one you're applying with somebody who maybe is like, you know, in college, still learning or or you know, studying the craft, which again, not necessarily a bad thing, totally for both those people who do it, but I think that they should partner together first, you know, and try because it'll help each other out. Um, or the third thing is you you're you're dealing with you know people who are jumping from job to job, right? So they're already looking for like the next gig, which which is smart. That's what we should do. But I'm saying so you have all these people essentially applying. Doesn't mean that everybody's like I said, doesn't mean everybody's looking for a job at the same time. It just means that's the situation that we're in and it just gets it just gets overwhelming.

SPEAKER_01: 51:23

You know, before I pivot uh into your personal craft and you know the craft of actually composing, um, there's one more question that I want to um ask you. What do you think is the end what do you think is gonna be the end result of all this? Because it seems like the industry is there ha there hasn't been a point like in the last five to ten years where it's settled on a model and then people have adapted to it, and then you know, we can kind of have an understanding of like what we need to do in order to actually, you know, make money on our art. And now AI is thrown into the bunch. Yeah, and now we don't know where it's gonna go. And you know, a lot of artists are very talented, you know, more uh more than enough talent to go around. Yes, now we're now we're having to fight with we're not just having to fight with ourselves for jobs. Now the companies are having to fight just to be able to float. Like a lot of the major companies now, they're they're high it's it they're being hyper competitive with each other just to be able to make ends meet at the level that they do. Like I don't like a lot of these companies are not doing that great, and they're having to continually they're the the investment that's gone into the industry right now is astronomical because they're trying to overcompete, and so now they're trying to save on these other projects. Um, and it's just not it's there's a bubble somewhere. I can't put a name to it, but it's a big bubble and it's gonna burst. And I'm thinking, what what's gonna be the end result once it pops? You know?

SPEAKER_00: 53:01

So yeah, I I actually I I I have a a take on this actually. Uh so I think it's interesting. I think you touched on a lot of things right now. I I think one thing people don't realize is that well, maybe you do, but you it's it's like you realize it, but it's in the back of your mind. YouTube is the the the the number one source of content for people. I mean, YouTube is massive, and I think that you know I personally have gotten gigs off films that went straight to YouTube that I that I did, you know, they didn't even get distributed, you know what I mean? And they do great, you know what I mean? Uh so those happen. And I think that's also gonna be something that we'll see. I think we're gonna see a growth in YouTube because it's free and everybody has access to YouTube. I think that you're seeing short series. Um, I've seen a couple things around LA pop up where uh there's a lot of companies that are starting that are doing short form content, which are like like you know, we talked about the audio dramas for Audible, but it's kind of like a short form video where there's like a like a mini-series that is on Instagram or TikTok or something like that. Yeah, exactly. And they're and it's short, you know what I mean? It's like a three-minute episode or whatever, maybe, or sometimes even shorter than that. And composers are getting hired. Yeah, oh, totally, 100%, dude. And I think, and I think that, you know, for example, those are the things like going back to the audible thing. I thought the thing was so cool, and uh, you know, the guy who I I spoke with, he was at first like, I know it's just an audible thing. I'm like, no, dude, this is sick. I'm like, I'm I'm totally down. I'm like, this sounds awesome to me. Because I feel like that kind of stuff, those, those kind of so audible thing was cool to me because people listen to it all the time and they're like they're in the car and they're away from a TV and they're not in front of a screen. And sometimes it's good just to be away from a screen and listen to something. Um, you know, and so I knew that was also a big potential uh, you know, new media outlet. But I think that's what it's gonna be. I think media is gonna change, and I think we're seeing that right now. I think we're seeing that people as things get more expensive, like groceries and rent and all those kind of things, people are turning to free content that they can get. And we we always think of like you know, content creators, right? I think that's like a common thing, is like, oh, you know, it's only content creators that are are making content for YouTube.

SPEAKER_01: 55:16

Unfortunately, hold on, I'm not to interrupt you. It still has a derogatory term, it does content creator. No, you're right. Yeah, it it I don't know why that is. It's kind of like we're still stuck in like the 2012 park horror, you know, YouTube video thing. And this is like it's not that now.

SPEAKER_00: 55:33

No, it's different, exactly. And in the production value of a lot of these things have gotten, you know, great, you know, and um, and like I said, there's some incredible filmmakers who are putting up awesome films. I watched it, for example, I watched an anime, an alien anime that a fan that a fan, uh me too, and that a fan made on and you put it on YouTube, and it was great, man. It was like really well done. Um, I can't remember the name of it, I would tell you, but it was alien. It was alien flaking from it was inspired by the alien series, and had millions of views. And I and I was just curious, and I put in, you know, I did the calculations to see like about how much money this guy made, and it was estimated he probably made around 70, 80k off this series based on how many purely ads, I'm assuming, right? Yeah, ads and stuff like that, yeah, or or premiums subscribers or whatever it may be. And so a lot of these people are also monetizing their channel through Patreon and these other things like that. And so there's budgets out there, and I think sometimes, you know, composers kind of overlook that because it's not the glamorous like TV and and film gig that they're looking for, you know what I mean? They they want to go straight to excuse me, straight to streaming. But those those will pay. There's people out there that'll pay for those types of things. There's people out there who will pay for custom music for their miniseries or their their short film or whatever it may be that goes straight to YouTube. And I think those are opportunities, especially if you're like a somebody who's getting into it, those are situations that you shouldn't pass up. You know, those are situations that you really should take advantage of and and and try to think of how you can be somebody in a in a new medium. And then on top of that, uh you can become a content creator yourself, right? You can become somebody who is is posting whatever, you know what I mean? Like I've done some things or played around with some of the AI video generation things and just practice scoring, like I told you, because I got such black about doing rescores. I started doing AI generated videos and just scoring them for practice. And I and I tell people that they're AI generative videos. I'm not trying to be in you know a movie director, but the score themselves are are real. And I think it's interesting because usually when they generate those videos, you're not really controlling what it does. So it's kind of like you're getting it like a director would, you know what I mean? So you have to still cut it and you have to do all these things that it's really good practice, you know, to drug into it. And those are things you can post um, you know, to try to build that that content. And then also, too, you know, from a composer perspective, I think a lot of composers tend to shy away from, you know, doing things like sample packs or all these types of things that are out there that are that have been extremely lucrative for me, that I think is gonna that's where the industry is gonna go. And I think to answer your question, to be somebody who's making music these days is not to be just one thing. You you have to do everything. You're gonna touch every little thing, anything that you can do to try to generate revenue, whether it's make sample packs, you know, do cont you know, YouTube channels, do you know, short films for up and coming directors, do some speaking events, speech, you know, those types of things. I think that that's also part of the gig now. You know, it's not like you could just focus on, you know, honestly, it's kind of always been like that, really. I just think it's just now it's easier to find different ways to you just have to be open-minded about it.

SPEAKER_01: 58:49

Yeah, well, Spotify and you know, Apple Music and those platforms, they democratize the music industry. Um, that doesn't the music industry doesn't really exist like it used to. No back in the 2000s. No, not at all. Um, yeah, and YouTube democratized television. Yeah, we don't really have TV shows anymore. We have YouTube series, and you know, now we have streaming.

SPEAKER_00: 59:10

Um I can tell you, kids, for example, I I've taught like I said, did I work for the Don Williams family for a while and we did education at a bunch of different schools around LA. YouTube is how kids watch stuff now, man. That so, like the future, you know, these kids that are in high school, by the way, when they graduate and they start, you know, their life as an adult, you know, which is not that far down the road, five, six, seven years, right? That's what the content they know. YouTube is only gonna grow because it's just it's they they're getting they are getting full produced TV shows now that are on these channels. You know what I mean? So I think it's just you really have to be open minded to those things.

SPEAKER_01: 59:53

The only thing that's keeping, I think, the uh the movie industry, or the old movie is industry model. Alive right now is the fact that theaters are still producing enough income for it to be worthwhile to keep that model alive. But it's not producing the type of income unless you're doing like a big blockbuster, you know, which is why we only have big movies now and they kind of feel uh the way it is now. We're not seeing the type of films that you know, like I don't think Godfather would get greenlit now. All those all of those great movies, or like Sixth Sense, those types of movies aren't getting made now because they're not profitable at the box office. Right. Um and the theater industry right now is the only thing I think keeping barely the old model alive, but it's still a bubble now because we have streaming. And you know, we're getting like the new Stranger Things series is like six movies, six really long movies packed into one uh you know thing you can get for twenty bucks a month. And so the margin just isn't there, but there's just enough to keep it alive, and it's I don't want to say like the theater industry needs to die in order for everything to happen because nobody wants the theater industry to die. That's you know, the communal aspect of going to see a movie and then experience having this like unconscious collective experience as you're all watching the big screen is it it makes I don't know what it does psychologically, but it makes a movie what a movie is supposed to feel like.

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:28

Sure. Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01:32

I don't want it to die, but I don't want the situation that like the industry is in right now. So it's like sure, what what's gonna happen, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 1:01:39

Yeah, I mean I I I think that it's just one of those things where you know the like you said, there's it's it's it's interesting right now, specifically, because uh the the films that are being made, and you touched on this, they're they're like they're like the remakes or the guaranteed, like the Marvel stuff, you know what I mean? Like the guaranteed hits, you know what I mean, for those particular things. And in a a an artistic style film, um it doesn't it may not get greenlit or it doesn't it it it it may go straight to streaming like you were saying. So some of those things, you know, like yeah, I I think about you know, like Tarantino is one of my favorite directors ever, man. And I think about like how many of those films he did may not even get greenlit if he was just starting out, like Pulp Fiction made never never made it to the theater, you know what I mean, in the modern age. So I think that you know that's something to really think about there. And I and we're starting to see it a little bit. I mean, Tron, people are saying that Tron's not doing very well right now, and that's a big blockbuster film, you know what I mean. So we're starting to see some things where I think that the the public starting to stand up to it. I just don't I don't know if it'll change. I don't know what the what that feature holds. Like it like I agree with you. I hope that it doesn't die because I think it's an awesome experience and it's something that I enjoy to do, you know. But it is it is in in dire, it's in a it's in a rough place right now, you know. I I think.

SPEAKER_01: 1:02:59

Um but the hope is that there the this is not the first time it's happened. Now it's the scariest time it's probably happened, but the movie industry, like even back during when uh Spielberg was making his movies, they were going around, you know, Spielberg, Spielberg got picked out of university because the theater industry was dying. They're like, okay, let's go try to find some new talent, you know. Maybe we'll have that sort of like renaissance come about as a result, ironically, which is usually what happens. Like, usually there's a dark time, and then suddenly there's this blossom uh uh of a flower that happens just out of nowhere, and then suddenly it works it. So it's like a lot of cultural changes, they just happen out of the blue, and you know, it just is what it is. I hope so. Yeah, but right now it's dark out and I don't like it.

SPEAKER_02: 1:03:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1:03:48

Um but I I want to get into your purser craft a little bit because this is kind of like where I get my personal interest out of. Um, I'm not a composer, I think it's fascinating, but like I like I alluded to earlier in the podcast, is that I love those orchestral scores because uh if I can listen to like something like a long like 20-minute piece by like Wagner and I close my eyes, I can see the movie. I don't even need the visuals. It's like the only time you can actually hear the book. I agree.

SPEAKER_02: 1:04:17

I love that. It's really good.

SPEAKER_01: 1:04:20

Now Hansimmer's great, he has his time, um, you know, but he's he he showed the m uh probably the most you can do uh with extracting music out of pure sound, out of random sound. Yeah, yeah. That in and of itself is is beautiful as art, but now we're in the age of like where people are just replicating it and now it's getting you know we're having fatigue from it. But we'll start with Hans Zimmer because you know he's he's arguably the goat. John Williams is my personal favorite, but Han Zimmer, like you can't bash him, but when you're in the middle of like composing your track, how do you get yourself into the flow state? And then how do you try to keep yourself there as long as possible?

SPEAKER_00: 1:05:01

So usually uh it depends, honestly. Um, you know, I I it depends on what I'm writing for. So if I'm writing for like a film, uh usually I try I really I like to read the script. I usually will ask the director for the script because sometimes there's things that notes the director will write in the script for certain things that may not be on the screen, obviously, you know, certain uh mannerisms of the actor or something like that that they want them to cover that it kind of unveils clues about that particular character. Um, you know, well, obviously I I watched I watch the uh the film closely and I take notes. Usually that's kind of like the first process. I'll listen to the temp music. And then when it comes to actually the writing process, I guess I I really focus on the emotional. I mean, this sounds pretty cliche, it's pretty standard, but the uh emotional, what's happening on the scene. I try to usually I start with a piano. Um, and I just kind of fiddle around, play a couple keys, you know, try to get a key signature that I like to work with with the notes I'm gonna use, um, and kind of narrow it down that way. Uh sometimes, so that's usually like if I'm like, let's say that I'm just trying to come up with an idea. When it comes to like cutting to the scene, one of the things I actually like to do first, and I'll actually go through and spot the scene, is what I what I call it, where I'm basically looking for cuts. So, you know, I'm I'm saying, okay, this something should happen right here and I'll mark it in my doll. You know what I mean? And something should happen right here and I'll mark it with my doll. Um, and then depending on the sonic palette that the director wants to use, I think to myself, okay, I'm gonna use synthesizers here, I'm gonna use an orchestra here. And to be honest with you, if it calls for pure orchestral score, I'm actually old school. I like to actually like to write music, and I think it's just it's a visual thing to me. I I use an iPad when I have this guy right here, and I I literally write my music with my Apple Pencil, um, write write the scores, and I and I have a program that I can actually import the video into and I'll write that way. And sometimes I'm just going off pure visuals of what's happened on the screen and just understanding I, you know, the relationship between the notes and the theory that I've learned over time to like try to capture certain things, certain relationships that make things sound darker and and brighter and happier and sad and all this kind of stuff, and really capture that. So a lot of times it's just it's just really just kind of locking in, man. I I don't really know if I know it's not kind of a very romantic or cool answer, but it's really just kind of locking into like that particular moment and just trying to like have it speak through the music. I I am I'm not somebody that really likes to just kind of I will fiddle around the keys, but once I actually have like a key signature that I like, or or maybe like a motif could be something that I play that I feel like really represents the feeling of that, that's kind of where that stops. And then that's when I start really the compositional piece where I'm like, okay, I have this uh, you know, I have this three, four, or five note piece or part that I like, and now I'm gonna build everything around that. That's kind of like the the the piece of the puzzle that I needed to kind of spark the creative, you know, flow of what I'm trying to do. So like with um, I can give you a really good example. So the the Bagman, the film that's coming out next year, the film itself, uh the the uh protagonist, which is kind of like a vigilante, uh, he basically wears a bag over his head and he like and he he does things to like like he basically attacks um people. It's it's kind of like a it's it's it's a it's a it's a horror film, but it's also like funny at the same time because basically the the character itself basically he attacks people who don't recycle. It's kind of funny, but it has it has like this underlying thing, you know, this like an underlying message. But the character himself, when I first saw the character, he drives a Mustang, he has wears jeans and a flannel shirt, and so and and it for some reason, and I don't know if it's my Midwest bringing up or whatever, but it made me think right away, it made me think of um the Midwest, made me think of Detroit. Um that's what I thought of, you know what I mean. I thought of like beat threat muscle. I was like, okay. And so I was like, so originally the temp music the director had sent me was actually a dubstep track. And I and I I remember saying to the director, I'm like, I think this track is really cool. I'm like, but I have like an idea for like a rock track. And he's like, rock? He's like, I don't know, man. He's like, I don't really think I want to go that route. And so let me let me let me just try to do something. So I have uh I had a uh wah pedal and I put on a guitar and I play this loop. Um and I and I had prior to that come up with a three three note um like a three-note thing, and it made me think of like um like cops, you know, like you know, this theme from song, theme song from cops like uh, you know, bad boy, bad boy, what you gonna do? You know, right that so and I and because of the goofiness of the film, I felt like we could do something very similar with that. So I I basically was like, okay, so I made this like little theme as like Bagman's coming for you, and I and I played like three notes. And I said, This is kind of the theme I'm gonna build this film around. And he's like, Oh, okay, I kind of like that. And I'm like, but I'm gonna do a guitar, I'm gonna do it with like a really heavy guitar, like like real heavy. And so he was at first he was against it, but then we ended up doing it, he loved it. And so that that motif, so basically, I took three notes I played on the piano, uh, that really were just notes and context. I mean, they could have been notes and paper, it didn't matter. And we and I moved it over to a guitar, you know, and that and that became the main theme. And I kind of built the the whole song around that, and that became the theme of of the Bagman. That's it, that's his late, his his light motif. Every time you see him on screen, the guitar is involved. So not only does he have like a melodic piece that's also part of him, uh, but also there's a three-note motif that the the listener hears throughout the entire film that's specific to this guitar tone that is like multiple petals together. I think it sounds very unique. And so it's it's it, you know, it's not just a it's not just a melodic thing, but it's also a textural thing too, and for that particular to match that particular character in the same film. One thing the director was against is he he actually didn't want to use any orchestra music at all. He was like, I'm trying to capture this like the 80s like noir horror film style thing, like he was really into John Carpenter, that kind of thing. And there's a scene where there is a a woman um and she something happens to her, right? And so it's a very emotional scene. So I told him, I said, We need we need strings for this man, like we need to write strings, like strings have an emotional weight to them that'll really help bring them. And colour again, exactly. Well, cello is yeah, like you said, like I I always say viol, I always tell my wife, and it makes me laugh, the violin is the only instrument that can cry. That's what I always say, right? So it's like it just has an emotional depth to it that you know, if you understand if you get a really good player that can, like I said, I can make the instrument cry. It's very beautiful.

SPEAKER_01: 1:12:07

The violin has a very feminine sound to it, too.

SPEAKER_00: 1:12:10

It does. I would agree, yeah, I would agree to it. Um and so we I again say same situation. I wrote something uh of particular motif, and then I um had a string we paid for a string ensemble. He was a little bit more open at that time to try some of these ideas that I'd thrown at him, uh, which was great. And he ended up lumming it, and we layered it with like an OB6 synthesizer or the OB6 synthesizer, so it sounds very 80s, it's noberheim, you know, sounds very 80s-esque, um, with with the strings over top of it. But the the strings brought that emotional depth that we needed. So, what I'm trying to say is sometimes from my perspective, it may not even be the notes, it could also be the timbre or this color palette that I'm choosing to represent that particular character. I kind of I I always I always like to think of um the instruments are like the clothes they wear, right? So it's like every time that that's that character is on the screen, how am I representing them? Like what's their style, right? It's like it's like a fashion almost like what can I do that like like and I and I do throughout the entire Bangman film. I have like things where the character is not even on screen, but there's like he's involved in a conversation, and I and I do uh in I inverted some of the melodic pieces and I use the guitar pedal, right? So it's like it's not this, it's not it's not the same melody, right? It's not the same melody, but I'm I'm referencing him through the music as part of the background sound, right? So it's like those things, so like you know, for example, if you're the if you're a person watching the film, because I mean, for example, like this happens all the time these days, like we just you know, you're just talking about how music right now is kind of in a weird spot in the industry, but I feel like sometimes you're watching shows these days and you don't even know who the character's talking about, you know what I mean? You're like, which person was that? You know what I mean? It's hard to recognize it. So those are some things I think musically that uses I like to do where subconsciously, if you hear that, it makes you think of Bagman. Yeah, well, yeah, no, his writing was good. I I I want to say it's actually it's actually really good. But but yes, for what you're saying, like it's almost like it's like it's like an additive, right? It's enhancing the story in a way. So there's no question about who it may be, right? Um so yeah, I think to answer your question, it's not always about the the notes, it's also sometimes about the the emotional quality of instruments. I actually enjoy quite a bit uh figuring out which which sound palette I'm gonna use. You know, I feel like it's like a painter deciding which colors he's going to paint with, you know. Um is it gonna be stencil? Is it gonna be violins? Is it gonna be orchestra? Is it gonna be guitar? And I I I do love combining instruments that shouldn't be together. Like I love playing rock guitar with a little bit naughty when you do it, don't you? String orchestra. Yeah, it's great. You know what I mean? It you do. It does feel like it's kind of out of place, you know what I mean? It's like it's it's kind of like a no-no a sense, you know, in that way. And it's like, okay, you know, I think that those are the kind of things that make people's ears, you know, kind of perk up and be like, oh, that's different, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:15:09

So when uh music is meant to be noticeable in the scene, how do you know not to go too far with its presence?

SPEAKER_00: 1:15:17

A great question, actually. Uh really really good question. So I actually always say that I like to I like to uh compose with space. And what I mean by that is I think that silence is awkwardness to some people. Um and as a musician it can be. Sometimes you might think, oh, this needs a little bit more. But I think in some cases you should use silence as an ally, right? So for example, in a 10 scene, having the music fade out completely, right? And then having it build back up again, that that empty silence helps with the tension, actually, right? Because you hear something and it's not there, and you're like, what just happened? You're kind of starting to listen a little bit, like what's going on, right? So it's you know, sometimes you should think about okay, I I have this, what can I do to uh make this sound interesting without adding more, you know what I mean? And sometimes that may be little changes, and like I said, with the guitar, like I was telling you uh just a second ago, flipping the melodic uh notes, you know, on upside down, you know, and so instead of playing these three notes in this order, I flip them backwards now. They're in reverse order, but it's with the same instrument, you know what I mean? Like to kind of like change it up a little bit. Um, but I think yeah, for me specifically, is I I actually I love space. I love space. I love leaving space for dynamics. I I'm a I think that's what makes orchestra music. We talked about you just said oh you love orchestra music. Uh that's what made Bernard Herman great. Bernard Herrman specifically was very known for his minimalistic approach because he could do things with space and and knew how to maximize an instrument's perspective. He was a master of orchestration. Um so yeah, I I I think to answer your question, it would be managing space.

SPEAKER_01: 1:17:06

What aspect of music composition do you think doesn't get talked about enough or get enough attention? I would say And I'm coming at this specifically more from like a uh perhaps a director's angle that you know sometimes uh directors always have don't they're not necessarily always composers or don't have a lot of music experience, and so they lack the vocabulary to be able to describe the sound that's in their head.

SPEAKER_00: 1:17:31

Yeah. That's that's you know, I think it's one thing so trust the composer if I had to say something. The composer wants the film to succeed just as much as you do, and I think having a collaborative conversation um where you both work together to to deliver the best possible score, there's going to be push and pull, you know. And this goes for composers as well. You know, don't you shouldn't just try to force, like I told you earlier, try to force something down the director's throat. But at the same time, if you really feel strongly about something, let it be known. And I think directors should listen because I do think, unfortunately, that sometimes music is kind of an afterthought. And I and I really I think I I do, and I've run into situations like that, you know. Like, for example, I can tell you, like, saying I I don't I I think MIDI sounds fine for an orchestra versus the real thing, you know, that's an afterthought to me, man, because like it does not. Why would you want to do that to your film? You know what I mean? Yeah, and like I said, even even if it's even if even like I said, for uh your theme, especially, because your theme is like the main thing that people are gonna remember, right? Uh, and so why not just take that to another level? And honestly, there's there's there's situations these days where you can get orchestral scores like over in Europe. I had a score, I did a session this morning, actually. I did one this morning at at 7 a.m. with the Budapest Orchestra for a video game that I'm working on. We did a 50-piece orchestra, it would cost it cost the director 2,000 bucks for us to do a three-minute song with 50 musicians. And it's to him, it was a no-brainer, you know. And so that that particular thing, I think, would say, you know, the composer is telling you something that they feel strongly about, especially if they have years of experience, I would listen. And you know what I mean? It doesn't necessarily mean you have to do what they say, but try to come to you know, try to come to a common ground, you know what I mean? So they can because again, the composer's gonna want the film to succeed just as much as you. And I can tell you a situation. I'm not gonna mention the film that I did, maybe you can find it, but I had a film that I I did, and the director cut the crap out of my score, like it was not the same. And the the score, uh, the movie got nominated for some things um for from film festivals, uh, but it didn't the the score wasn't nominated. And he was like, I'm really sorry, man. He's like, I thought the score was great. He's like the score to get nominated, and I and I honestly was like, it's it's fine. And I and I I told my wife, I said, I knew it wasn't gonna get nominated. The score wasn't good, it wasn't my score, you know what I mean? So it's like it it's it's situations like that where you know, I don't think you want your composer walking away saying the score wasn't good after it's something they created, you know what I mean? If that makes sense, and so you know it's it's it's just it sometimes it's good to listen to what the composer's trying to tell you, you know, especially if they're if they've been doing it for a long time. And I'm not saying that everything has to make it. Sometimes the composer's gonna win some or lose some, but sometimes maybe let them win some a little bit, you know what I mean? So it feels like it's a collaboration more than like you know, a job of being told what to do, you know?

SPEAKER_01: 1:20:51

Right. You you want to feel like an artist, not an employee.

SPEAKER_00: 1:20:54

Yeah, I mean, and and granted, you know, the direct honestly, too, usually when you can and I think this is also a lesson that for a lot of composers, when you come into the project, for example, when I came into Bagman, they've been working on that film for five years. I was a new guy, man. Oh wow, and I had to and I had to be, I had to be, I had to be very cautious with what I said. I mean, a lot of it was the pandemic that really took a lot out of it. Yeah, for sure. But the thing is they've been working on it for a long time, you know? And so I had to really tread lightly on some of this stuff out of respect, which it should be. You know what I mean? I'm a new guy coming in. I don't want to tell him that these things don't make sense or this is, you know, which realistically there really wasn't anything that I that he did that I didn't think made sense. And there was just some things that I thought that I could enhance a little bit, you know what I mean? And right it took building that relationship, you know, to be for him to trust me to do some things. And it took me doing some things sometimes a long way, where maybe I would score the scene twice and I would say, This is what I was thinking, this is what you're thinking, and then he'd come back and be like, actually, I like the parts you did here. Can we combine these two together? And then, you know, that's kind of again, that's a collaborative process, you know. So sometimes instead of just doing exactly what the director said, you know, I was trying to enhance it into sometimes a one, sometimes he was like, No, I really like the temp music I used here more. Let's try to really focus on that, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:05

So for you personally, what is it like to experience being possessed by an idea that you can't let go of?

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:13

It's tough because uh when you're quick, when you're really sending yourself on the uh the camera real quick. Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:22:22

You're a wiggler.

SPEAKER_00: 1:22:23

Yeah, I I'm I'm moving. Um yeah, I I yeah, I mean, I think that's that's it's it's tough because sometimes we have a burning idea to do something, and then you don't have an opportunity to do that. You know, you like again, we could just talk about what we just said with the with the directors. You may want to go a different direction. And I and there was multiple conversations during the Batman film where I said, I just don't hear it, man. I literally would say that to him. He'd be like, We need to go this route, and I'd be like, honestly, man, you're gonna have to help me here because I just don't hear it. You know, and that's that's what I would say. There were some some characters that to me looked like they were doing something different on the screen, you know, than what he had intended. But then when I got to see the full film made sense because he was like sending me scenes, you know. So it's like some of those things, you know, I think were tough to to to break. And it and it really, the few times, you know, I would get frustrated and be like, Am I do I really want to be doing this right now? Like, you know, there would be some things that I would say to myself like that, you know, and I'm glad that I stuck with it. Um, but yeah, I think it's it can be frustrating. And just it it really, you really have to remember to yourself this is a collaborative process. This is a collaborative process. This is you know, I'd keep saying it to yourself because sometimes if you feel too if you feel too strongly about something, it can really damage the relationship and it'll just make it worse, you know what I mean? And and less likely you'll get your way in the long run for other things, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 1:23:44

Right. Well, Josh, it's been great talking to you. I appreciate you too. You got a lot, yeah. There's some stuff I didn't even get the I was curious about because you've done conducting as well. And I'm like, oh man, there's you got video games, you got like, but you know, I got like you probably got a lot of experience that you know I could delve into. It'd probably take like a three or four hour podcast realistically.

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:06

Sure, sure. Well, I'll come back on some other time, man. We got another conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:10

Yeah. Do you have any final thoughts you want to leave with the audience?

SPEAKER_00: 1:24:13

Uh yeah, I mean, just that I would say, well, first of all, thank you for having me on. Um, and I would say that, you know, going back to my earlier conversation, you know, I I hopefully I don't discourage anybody from going after jobs and trying to get into it because I think it's an incredibly rewarding industry. And I and I I I want everybody to be a part of it. You know, I hope that what I was saying doesn't, you know, make people feel that I I'm not I'm trying to gatekeep because I'm definitely not. I'm just saying that, you know, in those situations, remember to just stick with it. Even if you don't get the gig doesn't mean you're a bad composer. Because most of the time, if you don't get the gig, it's because no one even heard your demo in the first place. So, you know, think about it that way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24:56

So well, thanks for coming on. I appreciate it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 1:25:00

Thanks, man.