Focal Point
Conversations with artists across all industries, taking a deep dive into the nuances, techniques, and philosophies of society's talent.
Focal Point
I Ran SNAPCHAT's Story #64 Writer Jon Thompson
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Two worlds collide as Jon—marketer, longtime curator of Snapchat Stories shares how mobile-first storytelling, research-driven writing, and emerging tech all coexist in one creative life. We talk about the behind-the-scenes discipline of shaping vertical stories that trained millions to think in transitions, and how that same editorial rigor carries into screenwriting, brand work, and a fast, focused daily writing routine.
Meet John And The Writers’ Group
SPEAKER_01Welcome to the Focal Point Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Riggs. Here I take a deep dive into my personal interests of the hidden craftsmanship, philosophies, and passions behind society's talent. If you're intrigued by artistic nuance, please subscribe and follow on my YouTube channel, Spotify, and BuzzSprout. With that being said, let me introduce you to today's guests. Uh John, I don't know if you're technically are you technically part of the screenwriters group, or was it or are you just like a passing visitor at one point for my own personal screenwriters group?
SPEAKER_00I would assume I'm technically a part of it, but is there some kind of official uh because yeah, I'm I'm I've been on the list for a while. I came, you know, a few months in a row, probably a few years ago, before I had my third kid. Um then and then yeah, I uh probably took two years off of writing, and then last year, beginning of last year, I kind of started again, and then when I started finishing some projects up, I um I'd been getting the emails the whole time, and then I started back maybe in August last year.
SPEAKER_01Um okay, gotcha. So you were before me, and I've been I've been with the group because there was one other group uh in Dayton that you know I just met and they were nice people, but um I happened to meet this current screenwriters group for Cincinnati uh by happenstance at a film Cincinnati event. That's a lot of Cincinnati's one sentence, there's way too many. But um uh since then I've attended almost every meeting, I've been going for about a year and a half-ish. So but up until that point, um until sometime last year, later last year, I hadn't met you yet, so I didn't know because on the list, the email list, there's like sixty people or something like that. But normally it's like the same between six to eight people, yeah, at best. And I never seen you before, so I don't know if there's like a specific like official part, but clearly you've been there a little bit longer than I have for in some regard or another.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, I don't know how as active, but um when I'm doing it, I'm that means that I'm pretty active in writing. Um if not, then I'm just probably too busy in regular life.
SPEAKER_01So Okay. Well, you tell me a little bit about because well, we've already established that you know you're a writer, that's kind of what we met over, and we'll get into that in a second. But uh outside of that, tell me about more about what you do uh for a living and how you got started with that, because I know it's uh there's a lot of uh it's not just writing for you, there's also other creative fields that you're you're a part of.
From Tennis To Social Media Career
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I would say um writing is kind of this you know hobby and passion that has been growing over the years, um, but it's never been my career moneymaker. So my I've been in marketing and social media for I guess I'll probably almost 15 years now. Um kind of at the very beginning of social media around like 2008 and 2009. Oh right, when it was starting to take off. Yeah, when it was really starting to take off. Um, I mean, I would say 2004 was when I was in college, and that was when Facebook was out. So I was you know really, I was like literally living kind of in the beginning of Facebook and when people were just using it to try to find girls and vice versa.
SPEAKER_01Uh and then it strayed from the path, and now it's no longer what it used to be, and its former glory days is behind it.
Inside Snapchat Stories And Vertical Video
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I preferred actually those former glory days compared to what it is now. But um, so I've always been to the forefront, and so that's always been my career as well. Um, I uh did social and marketing uh for United States Tennis Association. So I grew up playing tennis in North Carolina and then I moved up to New York after college at UNC. Um I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was staying on a friend's couch and was just kind of hustling, making contacts, and then uh got that job at USTA, worked there for about three years, um, you know, went around the country um, you know, pretty often uh for you know nine or nine months out of the year, and then for one or two months it was just a focus only on the US Open. Uh so that was really that was really kind of my first like real job in my career, and which can't really ask for too much better. Um I guess I had stuff before that, but I knew that I wouldn't be doing that. It was like sales and just like stuff to try to stay above water. Uh but then from there I kind of just carried on. I moved to uh LA from New York, I'd always wanted to live in both places. Um I had a friend at Snapchat. Um, and so I you know reached out to him when they were hiring and I got a role there. If you remember the uh story feature, which most people is probably people's favorite thing that Snapchat has had in this past because now it's just Discover and it's just those brand content fees, but it used to be content for real people. I was one of the people you know behind uh a computer, like say, you know, Coachella was going on, we literally get hundreds, thousands of snaps that would come in in a day, and I would take the best, you know, 12 to 15 of them, you know, write captions, um, you know, work with uh influencers that were on the ground, sometimes be on the ground myself, um, and then you know really help to grow that product. This was like 2000, you know, uh 2014-15.
SPEAKER_01Um and so you were in that role with the Snapchat, you were collaborating with other people that were using the platform to help it uh grow. And were you more front-end or back end?
SPEAKER_00So uh I would say, I mean, I would say I would say I guess a little bit of both. Um, so I curated the content that came in. So say like you would if you were at a concert and you were sending it in, I would get that, and then I would decide if that would go into the story that the whole world would see. Um, but for Snapchat, right? Uh for Snapchat, yes. Okay, gotcha. Um, and then uh, or if I wasn't there behind a computer, then I was the person that was out in the field. I was at Coachella or at an NBA game or you know at some event that we were covering because you know we did use, I would say 80% of snaps came from you know real users, but the other 20 to how to actually put the story together, like we would need transitions, or you know, we were working directly with celebrities. Celebrities really helped grow Snapchat. I know I don't know if you remember uh DJ Khaled, he was kind of a huge catalyst, and he actually came in and spoke to our team um like way when we were uh on the Venice boardwalk, which I think they still have office.
SPEAKER_01Man, that's a lot, that's a that's a big name. That's a pretty big name. Well, who else have you met through that? Did you meet through that?
SPEAKER_00Oh I so it's uh a lot of people, but um, I know just off the top of my head, because um everybody's been doing that 2016 trend. So I went back and I said, what was I doing in uh 2016? And then I went through and I was at Snapchat. And so just from the pictures that I posted in that year alone, um uh I was uh I have a selfie with Novat Djokovic, um uh Michael B. Jordan, um uh uh Miles Brown, who was was a kid at the time uh on Blackish. Um I had you know met Anthony Anderson because we were at the NAACP Awards uh uh at the time. Um see I I mean I met you know a lot of a lot of athletes. Um yeah, I mean, really like if if there was an event and um you know celebrities were involved, uh it was a good chance that if I was at that event, I would be working with that celebrity um or you know with their representative to say, hey, we need this kind of shot.
SPEAKER_01So you uh you uh being re representative and curating uh Snapchat's uh story feeds for that, you were pre-meditating and working directly behind the scenes in order to make that happen. It wasn't all spontaneous.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so it wasn't all spontaneous because I mean, yeah, we got great content from regular people, but there's like you have to make transitions. Like we were really trying to, we were telling real stories and like you know, with real transitions, then we started working with brands. You know, how do we tell a story that when we put an ad in that we're finishing a thought in between those ads, things like that? Um so it was, yeah. Um, and I think the the coolest thing that I always talk about is you know, right now everybody shoots vertical, but you probably until I say it right now, um, you probably didn't realize that or forgot that before Snapchat, everyone shot horizontal. Like, and you just take took the phone and you just turned it the other way when when someone sent you something, it was always horizontal. And what we did, we basically we trained the world to shoot vertical because when people would send in snaps, we never posted horizontal snaps and we only posted vertical. And then when we started working with ads and brands, we were like, Well, your creative team has to make vertical. They had never heard of that before. They had to come up with new processes, they had to come up and create new lenses because now we're shooting in vertical, which no one had ever.
SPEAKER_01I think a really big thing also that popularized that was was Vine. Vine was, I think, the first big one to start making vertical go, not just practical use be used practically, but also for virality.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, but they they did allow and they a lot of people posted that did post um horizontal because there was no like a punishment for posting for posting uh horizontal with Snapchat, you were you wouldn't be able to get on the story. Like we were even put filters that would say, you know, telling people to post vertical for a better chance to get on the story. Um, so and so like I said, like then it just it started going to ads, and then influencers started doing it. And so when influencers and everybody sees them started doing it, everybody does it. And then remember when I was there when so, really, all of this is your fault. Yes, but like when and no, when uh I was still at Snapchat when Instagram came out with it, and everybody was like, Wait, they literally just completely ripped off and stole Snapchat's product with store. Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Zuckerberg came out Facebook bought Instagram and Snapchat is Snapchat's separate. Okay, yeah, it never got acquired. I don't think it got acquired, but I wasn't I wasn't positive.
Brands, Agencies, And Career Moves
SPEAKER_00No, um, and so yeah, and then and Zuckerberg even came out. He was like, Yeah, this this is what happens in history. People do things and then it just gets adopted. And then he and he I he didn't really shy away from saying, Yeah, we we were doing the same exact thing as they're doing, and they were doing disappearing stories, and so yeah, that kind of started it all. But uh yeah, and then from there I kind of went to the CPG retail brand world. Um, you know, it was you know, when I was at Snapchat, I moved back to New York and then met my wife um in New York, but she's from Cincinnati, so that's why I'm here now. Um, and so when I was at New York after Snapchat, I was working for Mars and MMs, um, leading their social, shooting a lot of content out of a WeWork space. Um, when I moved to Cincinnati, I was working at Kroger, um leading the social management team, working with the agencies. I brought our agency in. Um, you know, we were shooting some really cool content, like they've kind of never shot before, but in general, all of the content that um people were putting online was starting to change, less of like product shots and more of lifestyle. So we started doing that sort of thing. And then um from there, I would always been on the brand side, and from there after Kroger, I went over to Obo V, which is one of the biggest agencies in the world. And um, I was a director of strategy leading the Walgreens account, and then you know, was working on a few other accounts like the Jordan brand, um SC Johnson, and then some web 3 stuff. And um, this was like 2022, 2017. I got actually actually really deep into web 3. And so by 22, I was like, you know, there were so many opportunities, but so few people who could take them. And so I, you know, jumped in uh having that knowledge of web 3 and then also having just general knowledge of being able to grow a company which web three is very developer and tech tech led. And so for the last kind of really for the last four years, that's what I've been doing is helping grow web three tech and AI companies through uh social media and um original content.
SPEAKER_01So so what for before I get to the questions that I I had in mind, um now that you're in web three, what do you think has yet to come out that you think um based on your experience of social media will end up becoming commonplace and even popular that people just aren't using enough right now?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, in web three.
Web3, Access, And Loyalty Futures
SPEAKER_01What applications are going to come out of the technology as a result of web three that will end up becoming commonplace in the same way that social media became very commercialized?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh that's really hard to say. Um I think that Bitcoin is always gonna kind of rule all in the crypto space, and we've kind of seen that over the last two years where Bitcoin like it got up to like 130,000 and while everything else kind of just like died. And so um we know that kind of at the end of the day, that's gonna be like the main currency that helps drive, and it's because there's a it's there's such a uh a limited amount of it. Um when it comes to the actual technology of it and how people use it, I think what what's gonna become, I think probably the biggest thing is is access and being able to track that access. So whether it's like um concert or or movie tickets um or you know, sporting events, you know, being able to track that and then you know, resell and um and also the same thing with like art and authentication of art, but all of those things right now when you resell, the original creator doesn't get paid. Um but with Web3, you can always track who is the original creator and always have royalties like baked in for that person. Or when it comes to access, when somebody holds, you know, it's called an NFT, but in the future it's probably you know, they're probably gonna not call it an NFT and just say, you know, it's some kind of access card and you'll be able to you know access it through your phone. But you know, holding that means that you know that's your that's gonna be, I feel like the future of loyalty programs. When you hold this, we can now feed you you know different discounts and things digitally, you know, through your digital wallet or you know, uh through whatever is going to be created in the future that allows you to hold cryptocurrency or allows you to hold NFTs. So brands have tried it, but um it's uh it hasn't, it just hasn't grown kind of big enough um for it to be adopted. And there's been too many, honestly, it's probably have been too many bad players. Um every time you know it kind of gets going, um, we hear about some really negative things that happen, whether it's a um, you know, a company that crashes and there was bad people behind it, or even you know, potentially the yeah, you know, by one of the most you know powerful people in the world who you know steals a you know a billion dollars creating a cryptocurrency and then and then dumping everyone. So um things like that happen, it really sets it back. Um so I think it's whatever happens in the future, it's gonna be things that I think people aren't even gonna realize that it's happening. It's gonna be kind of behind the behind the behind the scenes, like you know, like a uh iPhone. You're everyone loves it, but you don't necessarily know the technology behind it. That's gonna be the same thing with Web3 and blockchain technology.
SPEAKER_01With um, especially with Web3, it's just it's really efficient based on my limited amount of knowledge. I I went down the whole Crypto Web3 rabbit hole, I think maybe like 2019 through like 2021 or something like that, because that's also uh for context, I uh I tried day trading for like a number of years and then COVID hit, and then it got really popular, especially with uh Robin Hood and whatnot. But during that time I became familiar uh with just the technology aspect of blockchain, and that's when I realized the world is not gonna be the same in in 20 years, it's gonna be drastically different. And then AI started happening. And now it's just a combination of both.
SPEAKER_00I mean, you get AI agents that can build blockchains and carry out the commands, so uh it's I I I saw that and I heard I saw it uh used uh and uh created on the spot, I think with some other podcast or something like that.
Tech Acceleration And A Slower Life
SPEAKER_01But yeah. I don't I don't know how exactly how it works, but the it makes me reflect, honestly, with the speed of which the world is developing that I honestly think we're going to end up people wanting to have a slower style of of life as a result of it. And that perfect storm will lead into another ironically, another uh era of a different renaissance creatively for artists because now especially with things with you with tools like ChatGPT that gives people the ability to be a polymath again, if without um and not and not have to spend their whole lives being able to study a particular craft and art form in order to be able to augment their abilities and optimize for being able to actually reach stretch their tentacles into a lot of different areas uh that they wouldn't have been able to do otherwise.
Physical Media’s Return And Film Economics
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I think we're kind of already like seeing that um I mean that you kind of did 2016, which for me that isn't that far back, but like that's a huge you know kind of meme because people are like even 10 years ago things were were simpler and it seemed kind of as nostalgia. Right now, I have a um for me, I want to go back even a little farther than that. Um, you know, for you know our kids, we got tired of you know the possibility of them you know scrolling around on you know uh Netflix or YouTube. And so we you know we've got a a TV VCR, which apparently right now is extremely hard to find and they're pretty expensive, like the CRT TV VCRs, and we have yeah, because there's two different types of uh of VCRs, right? Yeah, oh no, but VCR, though there's like a VCR alone by itself, uh, but then there's a um a VCR that is actually a combo VCR, a TV and a VCR, which is like a CRT. It's basically a box. And so like we got one, it was not working. We got it for free, took it to a shop and got it fixed for 60 bucks. Um, you know, we we have it and we're we that's what our kids like watch movies on, like they're watching Richie Rich, like um like Parent Trap, things like that. Um, they love it, but like you know, they're not it's impossible to just like click around and scroll around, and it kind of makes things like you know uh you know kind of slower. And you know, we're it's like you can you can eat popcorn and watch a regular TV, but it kind of feels kind of cooler to do it uh uh you know kind of how you used to. I mean, right now I have a uh a 2009 or 2010 Canon uh uh handheld camcorder like uh that should be here like on Saturday. Um, but it's like you know, full HD, but but no 4K. Um purposely kind of get kind of that look. Um and also it's just a very simple thing to hold, take around to family events, but also have some plans to kind of do some things creatively with it as well. Um I have you know got the mic attachment and um you know a tripod and all that stuff, um, you know, monopod. Uh so just a few things I'm you know thinking about kind of doing with, you know, maybe projects that I'm you know currently writing and working on, or you know, things just like I work in a creative space, like creating some kind of like 10 or 15 minute like you know, um co-working space, um like uh kind of episode or overview of everyone in this office and kind of making it look like like the office, uh something like that. But um, which is funny, I'm working on a and we can talk about it later, but a micro series called co-working. Um part of it is kind of because I was I work in a co-working space and I have for many years, and um yeah, it's it just just made sense to to write about.
SPEAKER_01Talking about the physical media, um, I I always knew that, especially once streaming became very popular and probably the main source of people's uh entertainment, that physical media was not just gonna become a trend, but also come back as the preferred medium because you even with four if you're paying for four K with Netflix, you're not getting actual four K. And I my younger brother recently moved in with me. Um and he's yeah, he's about nine, ten years younger than me. And re He's uh it's it's happening now. It's happening now specifically with the latter end of the of Gen Z is bringing back that appreciation for not just visual quality but also sound quality because of the bitrate. Um you just can't get the amount of information uh from streaming because it's so compressed, even if you're paying for 4K. It's it's a waste of money in my opinion. But now that trend, I think, has actually arrived where physical media is becoming the thing that's esteemed now. And I've been watching streaming for so long. I haven't put a DVD in a DVD player in forever. But my brother, you know, he's been doing a bunch of like reconfiguring of our entertainment system. Uh I pay for half of it, but he does all the work, it's a really great deal. Um I uh he put a DVD in of a recent movie. And I don't know why it was this c it it was the way it was the way it was, but I was shocked about the the quality difference. It looked I like the 4K movie, I think it was re the new How to Train Your Dragon, I could see so many details that I didn't know I didn't notice that it was missing until he actually put the physical you know media in. And then that's when I realized um I'm old. I said all that just to say, wow. I mean, I knew I knew it was coming. It's not like I it's not like I got blindsided by it, but um that honestly kind of made me happy because maybe the profit margins, and this is where I'm what I wanted to go with this, is that the a lot of the profit margins for the film industry was really relied on the waves of DVDs being sold in stores. Because it only takes like a few cents, I think, to actually create a DVD, and then you know, it's like maybe a dollar for the box and shipping and handling all that, and then you sell them for 20. Because even if it didn't do great in the theater, you still had the DVD waves uh to actually make your money back. So hopefully hopefully that this isn't a temporary trend and it ends up becoming permanent because that would actually give a lot more power back to indie filmmakers to hopefully make some money on on their project. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00I think that's I think that's also part of why it's of why it's coming back is that that's where the industry is now. Like you can no longer, you know, it's really hard to even think about you know the uh the production company route or you know, pitching something and getting it bought. Like it's nothing's getting bought. If you work in, if you if you're working or writing in TV, then like I mean, you better have like an A-lister and or and maybe also be an A-list, you know, showrunner yourself. And then when it comes to features, which I've you know been uh kind of thinking about and focused on more lately because of that, and you know, and being you know, keeping that low budget as well. Yeah, I mean, it's you know, it's very hard to, you know, they they publish like all of the features that are bought, and I haven't looked in a couple of months, but I think in December it was like like eight in all of Hollywood and like one TV show. And like, I mean, I'm being realistic, like that's not gonna be me. And that's probably what most people are saying right now. And the way that people are found in the last few years is creating it themselves, whether it's a filmmaker or a social media influencer.
SPEAKER_01Well, I mean, studio do I forget which which studio was recently bought out by Netflix. It was one of the big ones.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't know which one. Wait, shoot. I don't know about uh I know that Warner Brothers. Whoever owned HBO. It's whoever Warner Brothers? Oh, okay, Warner Brothers. Okay, yeah. Warner Brothers, damn, I forgot they was that was the same deal. Yeah, Warner Brothers bought HBO and now Netflix bought Warner Brothers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Netflix's argument I saw I read a few articles about it, was that they're they think that they're actually saving the movie industry by you know acquire making larger acquisitions to be able to build. I don't know what the reasoning is, uh, but people think that Netflix is killing the industry, and then Netflix thinks that they're actually saving it. So who do you think is right?
Streamers, Franchises, And Industry Stagnation
SPEAKER_00Uh definitely don't think that uh Netflix is saving it. Um I think Netflix is saving it if all of that money they're waving around, if they're I'm using that to put towards more filmmakers, but they're not. It's the same filmmakers or you know um franchises that are being remade. Um, I mean, yeah, there's some originals, but again, those are usually like first look deals. Like, you know, where are the incubators or accelerators that actually like when you think about like the history of of the industry and you know, the times that it's really grown, it's when it's opened up to new players. And I don't I don't know how much Netflix acquiring things that already exist and waving their money around is is really doing that. Um yeah, I mean the you know the last five years before Netflix you know started buying everything or whatever, when we had all these, you know, the uh you know Warner Brothers and them are you know still there and some of them are still are like have they been doing any better? No. So I'm not sure what the answer is. I think the answer is you know independent slash new filmmakers and new stories, um, because everybody's tired of seeing the same things, but um, I think we got to a point, or the industry or the people with the money got to a point where um in streaming they they did put out a lot of money. I just don't think they did it the right way, and they didn't see the returns that they wanted. And so that's why now we're seeing just a flood of of franchises and the same people in in movies.
SPEAKER_01Leading to this type of cultural and creative stagnation that we're seeing in the visual mediums because I noticed in like the last year and a half, I've seen more artisan type films try to make their way in the theaters, like uh with the let's not and and I don't just mean A24 films. Um there is a lot of there's a lot there's a lot of especially for this year with the Oscars, there's a lot of contenders that are those types of films like Hammett, um uh one one time after another. I forget what the it's the new film with uh Leonardo DiCaprio, but there's those types of films. Uh I I recently looked at the box office results for those. Um they're still not doing great. But they're you know trying to go for the Oscars to be able to hopefully make more of their money back by being able to promote it in that way, saying it was an Oscar winner because that's that the the awards that seems to be the new model for being able to get a second wave of DVD type uh returns, but now everyone's competing for that, and there's not a lot of awards that people actually really pay attention to, other than you know, the Emmys and the Oscars. And yeah, it seems like the industry is just kind of choking each other.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the the rock is just a I mean a very interesting case. I mean, I think he's you know good for the entertainment industry, you know, overall, because I mean he's helped put a lot of people in business and make things. I don't necessarily like anything that he's made, but um you know you brought that up and that just reminded me I haven't seen it, but you know, they made like a huge deal, you know, um, before people could see it, you know, while it was still on the festival um uh tour of uh the smashing the smashing machine? Yeah, uh yeah, yeah. Is that is that the name of it? I think it's the smashing machine with the rock. Um I think this name like it might be something, but it's definitely close. It's smashing something.
SPEAKER_01I know what we're talking about, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, um, yeah, so they made like a huge, it was all over social media. Like in Venice, he got like a stand-in ovation and he was like crying, and like people are like, Oh, this is the best thing that he's done, which like the way that the movie looks, like he doesn't make movies like that. Like it may be the best acting he's done. Again, I haven't seen it, but you know, a week or two later, um the movie, you know, uh comes out, I think, with to theaters and was I mean, it was horrendous, horrendous showing. Um and and now it's back on, no, now it's on streaming and now they're promoting it again. But like it's that that same sort of thing you just mentioned, like um they are yeah, I mean, there's um streaming is yeah, it's it's uh interesting and you know people who have been successful, they're not even sure what what to kind of do right now either.
Micro Series And Vertical Soap Operas
SPEAKER_01Well during the eighties and nineties when uh those types of artists and films could still make their money, and not just because of DVDs, but largely uh largely cult uh in the culture people were in the habit of going to movies in order to get their media. And so I there's a fair argument in my opinion to say that it's not even the solution has nothing to do with filmmaking or the entertainment industry. It's the fact that people are fatigued from being on their phones. And uh do you know what the um what the average like usage uh time for you uh social media is for the average person today?
SPEAKER_00I don't know, but I mean it's gotta be probably if you're talking about a week, probably eight hours.
SPEAKER_01No, it's like four, it's like three to four hours a day.
SPEAKER_00A day, yeah. It's uh that that's two movies, seeing two movies a day on average, and but it's funny that media fatigue, but like like one of the bigger and I I mean one of the bigger, you know, up-and-coming formats right now is micro series because it is all on verticals, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So um, but yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've heard uh I talked to an actress uh last week who who said that a lot of her friends are getting offers to do those types of vertical shorts. Um and I've never looked and watched a full version of one of those, but as far as I can tell, I've seen long extended clips. It's basically 2025, 2026 soap opera. It's a modern-day soap opera, it's the new latest iteration of soap operas, essentially, except you know, maybe there's a little bit more production value than uh than your average like channel nine soap opera or something from that back in the day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I can't say I've watched like I mean, I haven't watched like a lot of them, but it's like deliberately cheesy, you know. Yeah, I'm about to say I also can't say that I I like anything that I've seen, and I think that's the reason I'm just like that, not that type of watcher. Like I I actually love some reality TV and my favorite show is 90 Day Fiance, but like if I'm yeah, but if I'm like yeah, you know, you know, watching uh you know, a movie is for me, it needs to kind of have a little more meaning. I want to kind of kind of see or kind of feel uh the art of it. And um, I haven't quite uh seen that with these um um with with what's going on, which is hard because they're only you know a minute and a half or two of these.
SPEAKER_01I don't think it needs that's the thing, uh the the success with those, because they're popping up uh a lot now, and and actually a lot of Chinese companies are making major investments into that sort of content.
SPEAKER_00They started it, it's a bite-sized content. So David Ruins has started it.
SPEAKER_01Because people are already, you know, they're on their phones watching a lot of uh uh spending a fair a decent amount of time watching reels, it doesn't need to be better than movies, it just needs to be better than what they're already watching, you know, spending all their time on watching reels. If it's like twice as better as uh more entertaining that they're willing to watch and spend time on, then you're gonna be able to make money with that.
Balancing Career And Creative Drive
SPEAKER_00Also, episodics, it's like real storytelling, you know, which reels reels is not necessarily dead unless you're that type of creator who's you know creating a new story. But even then, you're probably doing a new skit every time with you know with with uh you know verticals, you do you know, 10 episodes of a you know a medical micro drama, you're kind of following the same themes and characters the whole way.
SPEAKER_01I want to pivot a little bit now to your your own personal craft of screenwriting because you know now that we we've got the backdrop of um your professional career when it comes to social media and uh your other interests that happened along the way of that, uh where does your personal sense of creativity and and fulfillment, where does that come in during this whole story that you've had up to this point um in your professional career? Is it something that you've tried to make it work happen and happen before? Or because like a lot of artists you know, they pursue the thing that they really want to do and then eventually they realize uh this is not profitable yet. So, you know, they'll alternate between the jobs that actually pay and then then exacerbating their resources to be able to try to make that push to see if they can do it again. You know, they just keep trying over and over again. Well is that the way that you've approached it when it comes to creativity and versus your professional career, or is it just something that you've done as a hobby on the side? And you know, if it happens, it happens.
Process: From Idea To First Draft Fast
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh I would say, you know, I mean, definitely start it um as a hobby and just the way, you know, always telling stories for brands um you know through social media. Um, but you know, that's those are all always short form, you know, stories. And you know, I've always been interested in um you know, in you know, historical you know events and um you know just personal stories that I've you know or personal things I've experienced and wanted to tell, things that you know you can't do at a job because that's not their you know, that's not their brand, or just in general, if you're working in social and you're not telling longer stories like that. So at first it was just, hey, let me try a longer form um of storytelling. And you know, I like TV and film, so you know let's let's do that. And I would say I definitely always have kept it separate. Um, I think because uh I've just always been someone who's wanted to have some kind of stability and for um for you know social media and marketing, it's it's always been that and probably in some way always be that where you know I know that I can you know get a check and I have the resume to you know you know to get a job and a role in that. Um and you know, with now finding more time and writing like I am now, um and it's what's great is that I'm at a point in my career is that if I did write something that took off, like I have you know no issues with you know leaving the career that I've had because I you know feel like I've done really kind of all the things that I've wanted, you know, you know, without being an entrepreneur. How old are you now? 39. Um and then uh yeah, and then you know, uh so yeah, I've done no everything I've wanted to do there. And you know, I know that kind of this is something that I would want to do for kind of you kind of can say like the second half of my life, but um that's kind of where I am, is like again, like yeah, I know that I can always you know keep food on the table with what I've done with my career, um, but writing has always been there and it's always been kind of like my creative outlet that I haven't, you know, usually you're put in some kind of silo, or you know, you can't you can never come fully be your creative self um working for somebody or or you know working for when when you first get the idea uh for a script and you realize that you're going to end up pursuing this idea until it's finished, like it's just that kind of idea, and you have that gut feeling about it.
SPEAKER_01How do you get yourself into the flow of creative writing to be able to just sit there and actually make a lot of progress in a way that's meaningful for you?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so I honestly tell me about your flow state, bro. You know, yeah, yeah. I do a lot of like writing and thinking in my head in advance before I write like anything down, like actually. Um, like um, so you know, first I have an idea. Um, you know, I'll think about it for you know all night or for a couple of days. And if I'm still interested in it, then I'll start putting things you know down on paper, um, start kind of building out who could potentially be characters, what could potentially be that story. Um also start looking up what are you similar before I before you're going before going too far. Are there things out that are too similar? Because I mean, as much as I like storytelling, I what I something I hate uh more than that love is wasting time. And um, and like if you know everything that I write, like I truly write it because I think that it's a possibility that could sell. Like, do I think that it will? Like, I mean, it's an industry where you can't really think like that if you don't want to get depressed. So um, but uh that's like so yeah, if I if I write something, I'm just gonna assume that I'm going to uh to sell it. Um and so uh so yeah, if I you know, so I get this point, yeah. And you know, I've thought about it for you know a few days, it's still I'm still interested in it, and then I just start doing really deep research, you know, who are potential characters that I can model, or I write a you know, I write, you know, I've write written quite a few historical dramas, who's a character that I can focus on or model a character after. And then you know, I you know from there, you know, we'll start creating a uh you know, usually a treatment, so somewhere from like three or five pages, you know, um, with uh synopsis, log line, um, themes, things like that. Um, and then I then I'll start reaching out to you know people that are close to get their thoughts and ideas. Like if I go that far, you know, sometimes I start writing all of that out and I'm like, I I'm this isn't this can't be a show, it's not gonna go that long. Or uh I'm this is I'm gonna get bored if I keep writing this this uh this show so or this this movie, so I'm gonna stop. But if it's gone farther than that, then and I started taking it to someone else, then that means I'm looking for some validation that no, it's an that it is an idea that I should continue with. And um, yeah, and then from there, uh I just it's interesting. I I feel like I maybe I uh kind of I guess it just depends on what project it's maybe been, but um uh I would say probably honestly, more uh my process has been in the past is thinking all of it thinking about what the script is gonna be, um uh like what the pilot or what the feature is.
SPEAKER_01Like anxiously throughout the day, is it more of a meditative process?
SPEAKER_00Um anxiously throughout the day, but like so much so that within a couple of days I can recite from like kind of in my head every single scene of a movie. And then I will take that, start writing it all out in notes, and basically have every scene in notes, and then I start looking at the scene and go to a uh open up a new file, and then I write it all. So I actually usually write a script before I write the treatment, um, like an actual, like kind of official, like organized treatment. Like, of course, I'll write out like some characters and write out the characters and generally kind of their tone, like who they are, but like I mean it's only me, nobody needs to see it. And if I have it in my head, that's fine. So usually I'm I will write uh you know, uh yeah, I'll I'll write it all before I kind of create a treatment. And it to be, I don't I don't know how I it's sometimes I feel like weird about saying this. I don't know how people feel. If like well, I don't like saying it's somebody who's been in the industry for a while or who's written for a while, because it's normally not the case with like anybody, but um like before going into like proofreading and editing, um it's it's probably never taken me longer than three weeks to write a script, and probably normally between one and two weeks to write a script.
SPEAKER_01So what if that's the time that it takes for you to start to go from start to finish out of the actual writing, what is the duration of the time that you spend working on it when you uh on throughout the days thinking about it and you know, making um story structure notes and character notes uh on your phone, whatnot? How long does that happen before the actual writing actually starts for you?
SPEAKER_00Okay, so yeah, that whole process is probably three weeks, the the character notes and things. Is probably a week with me.
SPEAKER_01Like it's if I'm wait, so you're busting these scripts out in like a month?
SPEAKER_00Bust yeah, busting them. Busting them. Jeez. Yeah, like, and that's why like it's like I I it's I get wary about telling people that because some people just assume it's not a good script, and that's just not the case. That's just like, and like I think that like the time that someone spends over three maybe through three months, I could potentially be spending the same amount of time.
SPEAKER_01No, is that also go ahead, I'll finish real quick.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say that I may be spending the same amount of time like in my head, actually thinking. I mean, like literally, like like while I'm at work, like while I'm with the kids, like my wife knows when I'm like writing a script because like I'm I'm I'm not listening to much. I'm forgetting like a lot.
SPEAKER_01Like I'm she can tell when you when you're just checked out.
Researching History And Building Characters
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's like I'm standing still, like staring at a wall, like the kids are saying my name, and I'm like not like paying attention to them, like if because I'm like in deep but like I'm saying I'm guilty, I'm just as guilty. Like that's mostly the reason why I write the script so fast, because like otherwise, like I I couldn't live my life writing, you know, three thinking about a script for three months. If I'm writing it for like I said those three weeks, like 18 hours a day, like I mean, if I I'm waking up at one o'clock and then from one to four, I'm like in the bed, like you know, in my notes or on writer duet, which is what I use, um, writing that script. Like I'm I'm like I can't stop thinking about if I have an idea because I'm either like I'm maybe I'm afraid that I'm gonna stop and like go on to something else, or it's just like I'm that passionate about it, where like like oh, like this is next, this is next, oh here's another idea, here's another, oh, this scene is great, and I just have to keep writing or and I think I might lose it. But that's also why, like by the end, by that three weeks, um, or that's oh yeah, yeah, by that three weeks, I could somebody tell me like, hey, they tell me scene by scene, like I don't even need to look at it, like I know it scene by scene, what that whole movie is in my head.
SPEAKER_01So when you actually go to start writing it, you're doing this non-stop all day, every day for that period of three to four weeks is what you're saying.
SPEAKER_00I would say, I mean, I do have a job, so I would say like uh I'm definitely a writer's duet on my phone. So I got the mobile mobile app, and I'm you know, yeah, I have a nine to five. I would say, you know, you know, a lunch break, or really any kind of break I'm you know, writing, or honestly, anytime an idea pops in my head, I'm gonna I you know put something to the side and just you know write it down, or I put it in notes and then later can come back to it, and then you know, I put something in notes and like I'll like write out a whole like dialogue or scene with one paragraph with uh and like literally just like a paragraph.
SPEAKER_01What about for historical scripts though? Because if you're doing a period piece, I would like there's research that has to go into it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the period piece I would say maybe that one week before I start writing is maybe more like two weeks. Um, so it's like yeah, those they gets hardcore like research, like I mean, diving really deep and like when I say like, I mean, I've always been like a you know big researcher, like finding things. Like if somebody wants to find something on the internet, like they'll they'll they'll find me. But like I you know, several scripts that I have um written or projects that I've you know created has been from doing research of of another project. Um like uh for example, um the I had a you know one of my scripts is a Sundance finalist in I think 2022 or 2023. It's called Bert. I have the life rights to it. Um it's uh about a um uh a gay Jewish psychologist who um went to Harvard when he was like 15, um, then you know moved to New York. He helped screen people to get into World War II, um, was like a you know a huge activist, all this stuff or whatever. But through that research, like during his Harvard years, I found out about this person named Lincoln Kirsten. Um the most interesting person that I've ever like really ever read about in history. And so he's this you know, it's like you know, you know, really just big presence, like a six, five, um, like you know, loud, um bipolar Jewish guy who went to uh Harvard. He's got a lot going on, yeah. Like had a lot, had a lot going on. Family was rich, but he wasn't in the inner circle because he was Jewish. Um went to Harvard, he was in this class, uh uh it was it called um the museum class, and it was taught by Paul Sachs from the Sachs family. The head of the art department was Edward Forbes, who's from the Forbes family. Um, and so like there's this Wait Sachs as in Goldman Sachs? And he would and Paul Sachs left the firm in the early 1900s too because he loved art and he became a curator, and so he was uh he taught the museum class, which became basically the class that led to um American curators. He was on the board along with Rockefellers and some of the other big names in US history of the original board of the of MoMA, and Alfred Barr took his museum class, and Alfred Barr, he was Alfred Barr's mentor, and he was the reason that Alfred Barr was named the first curator at MoMA. So um, but uh but Lincoln Kirsten was a guy who you know bipolar, also bisexual. Um uh he was just this big personality. He then he eventually made his way through and became like this, like this big person, like outside, even outside of the Jewish community. But within the show that I wrote, like Paul Sachs didn't really like him because he was kind of this extravagant guy. But Paul Sachs was also Jewish and with and actually within the inner circle of the rich community. And he kind of they were both leveraging each other. Um, and so Lincoln Kirsten actually, when he moved to New York, he started the New York Ballet in New York City Ballet, he brought uh balancing from Europe to America.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then he was you know wanted to was he really into art or was he just uh was he just um entering a medium to be able to help mu uh uh do uh money laundering? Because you know about like paintings being charged, uh overcharged for an astronomical amount, and then you know he was he was really into the art because like he had all these ideas and he wanted like he thought I mean he was really talented and people saw it, but he was also a very forceful person.
SPEAKER_00He um the fox and hound, I think it's the name of the uh like the the Harvard newspaper that like you know if you were a writer and you were gonna be something at Harvard as a writer, that's what you wrote for. He was turned down with a guy named Varian Fry, and it was both because they were Jewish. And so he said, Fuck this, started his own paper, and he knew some pretty uh, you know, through his dad and through his sister, who was a writer, knew some pretty affluent people, and he got bigger writers than the fox and hound did, and he couldn't be overlooked. And so he was he really is one of the like, I mean, no one knows about him, but then I created this uh TV show called the museum uh the museum course, and it's about him and he's the main character, and following him through this course and this bipolar, you know, biomanic character who went through Harvard and uh you know helped to bring you know to build uh museums and and you know modern modern art and bring it to America?
SPEAKER_01So when you're because I'm curious, is there anything that you think that another writer could take away from your own process? Obviously, everyone's minds works differently and they have different temperaments and you know everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses. Is there anything from your own process and the way that your mind works that another writer who maybe isn't as as quick as as you um in terms of their the way that they approach things or how they think about things that they can benefit from in order to be able to get their scripts done uh a bit more efficiently?
Using AI For Feedback, Not For Voice
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, just I mean, think about it and write write down everything that you think about, whether it's a scene, whether whether it's a character. Um and yeah, I again I don't know what your workload may be, but no, it's it's truly about like thinking about it so much where if you can't stop thinking about it, then it's probably a good idea to continue with. Obviously, barring that no one else has done it, you know, and you care about that you know part of it. Um you know, it's you know, I think that that is really important that you loving it and you wanting to continue, you know, working on it. Um, I think that that's the biggest piece. Like if you don't love what you're writing, then you know you're gonna you're gonna get stuck a lot. That's another thing. Like if you don't truly love the what you're writing about, you may end up getting halfway through and then you know giving up on that idea because you realize like I really don't want to. I think like really deciding what you want to write, oh you know, really thinking about it, knowing it yourself because you're obsessed with it, with it, sending it to others who like see that potential as well before moving, uh you know, before moving forward. Um, you know, uh I think a writer's block is probably the biggest thing, whether it's you know coming up with the idea or being in the middle of writing and then being stuck and not knowing either what the next scene is or how to get to that scene because like there's something maybe technological or a process that you don't know about. I think that that's when you think about you know where AI is now, I think that that's like really important or a really big thing to use it for. I wouldn't say important because it hasn't it, you know, it's only been around recently, but but it's definitely if you know when we talk about being able to write things you know quicker, if you're stuck, like being able to say, hey, like, you know, put your script in where it is now and like this is what I want to go next, but I don't know how to get there. Like that's something you're trying to do, and you're that's a great way to and like get out of that writer's block and to continue. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01Other than other than you, I'm uh I have not met another writer um who uses AI to be able to help uh to be able to assist them because you know the the process of writing, it's a very it's very meditative, it can be very personal, and there's a lot of you know, understandably uh artists want to protect their own authenticity. And they certainly don't want to involve AI into their workflow, and when they go to tell people about you know how they wrote the script, they they they don't want their own credibility to be uh questioned, especially when they're very passionate about it. Um and so I've I've experimented with a number of different methods, and the biggest way that I've I think been able to walk the line and uh that rope to be able to get the best of both worlds and still keep my own authenticity and credibility for you know using AI ethically ethically for my own craft is that uh I will basically put whatever amount of ideas I've written down um or a script uh into Chat GPT and then I'll I I'll talk to it and have a conversation with it. I will set up you have to set up your own parameters of what in the beginning um to explain what your goals are with the script, what you do and don't want to have done, and it will do it with flying colors and like I want to protect my own authenticity. And my goal is just to be able to have a conversation with you as a peer, not to be able for you to tell me the answers about what the script needs, or to be able to do it for me, but to be able to stir my own creativity uh to be able to get it out of writer's block. And if you approach it like that, you uh you'll be you'll be very surprised with how how well you're able to go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm very careful about like how I use it or what what actually goes on the page. I you know pretty much for the most part have a rule that what comes out in AI, like it it doesn't go on paper because I'm normally actually, I mean, I'm normally not asking about dialogue. So like dialogue usually never touches AI. Um if it's a um uh scene description, it's just because like I mean, I know I'm like maybe not like the best with my words. And so like you know, I'll write it how you know I'm thinking about it, and then say, hey, can you just clean this up? Um and so that's more of you know just to make the read a smoother read, um, which is you know always better for the reader. And so I would say that's when it comes to like actually you know taking what comes out of AI and putting it on a paper, yeah. I mean, I it's yeah, that's it's morely it's more for you know the ideas. Um and then also I think it's great with um it's really hard to get people to find people to read your script or be able to, I would say the average time that it takes somebody to read your script is probably like two months. Um but like being able to take a script and to put it in there and you know for it to give you instantly back, you know, uh, you know, uh feedback is just amazing because like, you know, I've taken that feedback before, you know, before like truly trusting it and you know um and comparing it with notes and feedback from you know friends in the industry or real readers, and it's almost always like the same, which is kind of scary, or like they almost always like talk about the same points of like, oh, you should have got to this sooner, or this part of it goes a little strong or goes or sorry, goes a little long, or um this part of coverage companies I don't think are going to exist.
SPEAKER_01No, yeah, a few years. It's it's just over, it's done.
Pitch Decks, Visualizing Scripts, Next Steps
SPEAKER_00And so, like, and so like I mean, that's just one part that like I'm not gonna like find some person to read it, pay them 50 bucks, and they may be possibly putting in the AI too. Like, it's honestly that might be a good side hustle. Yeah, so um, I mean, these days just it shouldn't be a side hustle, everyone should just do it themselves. But yeah, uh so yeah, I mean, but um, but on the AI topic, um, yeah, other than that, when it comes to film development, like I would say like the what I usually use it most for is creating uh pitch decks. Um so um like visuals, like you know, uh you know, being able to create easily create visuals without trying to Google around and look, find it, so being able to get exactly what I want. Um, with uh maybe with some different summaries or kind of the best way to put on a page like you know, a synopsis, usually getting a synopsis out of it. The best way to put that. Um or um and I've been playing around a little bit lately with yeah, like literally creating um you know, creating reels or not reels, but creating like trailers, trying to start actually making you know my writing come to life because like yeah, I said that my one of my goals this year is to you know actually, you know, something like make something that I write. Um, I mean, I think right now the first step and really you know kind of or it's just a really cool thing to see is I mean, seeing that come to life, even if it's just through AI, but also that helps you through writing, like you know, doing my scripts, like putting them in scene by scene, building them out. I have like edited a lot of scripts, realizing like, oh shit, like this would make no sense going to the next scene, or like this is not a good transition because I'm trying to do it now. How would they be able to try to do it if they're making the movie?
SPEAKER_01I think people need to at least try using a potentially better method before before they they judge it a little bit. Yeah. But anyway, John, thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it. Um, is there any final thoughts you want to leave with the audience?
Final Advice: Don’t Quit, Connect Locally
SPEAKER_00Um, yeah, I mean, uh, you know, for I mean, I'm I guess in most people or a lot of people are gonna be interested in screenwriting. Uh, you know, I would say it's probably a lot of people right now, like, you know, thinking about quitting or trying to figure out like what's next. I think um what's next is is you know, it may not be the support that we had in the past, but I think what comes with what's gonna come with that is more freedom. So keep writing, uh connect locally, which is gonna be big for me this year, and you know, just find people that you know you can want to collaborate with uh that'll help you, you know, tell your stories. But uh don't think it's a time to quit because I think there are gonna be a lot of people that quit, and then there's gonna be a this kind of uh rush that maybe I don't know if it's you know two years, five years that they're gonna be looking for people and then realize that they've uh forced a lot of people out.
SPEAKER_01Well, thanks again for coming on. Um it was great to be able to actually finally be able to do this.