Focal Point
Conversations with artists across all industries, taking a deep dive into the nuances, techniques, and philosophies of society's talent.
Focal Point
Feature Films Update! #67 w/ Dylan Anglin and Joseph Cox
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First time returning guests Joseph Cox and Dylan Anglin update us on their indie feature films in production!
We discuss the gap between the film you shoot, and the one audiences see. They also explore the risks of pulling from real life and how to shape personal material into something honest without alienating people.
On the business side, they cover funding, producers, festival strategy, distribution options, and even Blu-rays as a surprising revenue stream. Overall, it’s a practical, honest look at balancing ambition with execution when making a low-budget feature.
Welcome And Guest Setup
SPEAKER_03Welcome to the Focal Point Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Riggs. Here I take a deep dive into my personal interests of the hidden craftsmanship, philosophies, and passions behind society's talent. If you're intrigued by artistic nuance, please subscribe and follow on my YouTube channel, Spotify, and Buzz Sprout. With that being said, let me introduce you to today's guests.
SPEAKER_00What if we've changed and we're awful people from the last time you talked to us?
SPEAKER_03Then this is gonna be an even more fun interview because I have nothing to hold back now.
SPEAKER_01Um another time is uh it's going.
Returning To Production In May
SPEAKER_01So like we we were hoping to start filming again back in February, but what we were running into was just availability of crew and casts together because things were getting busy, and um, so right now we're looking at May to start production again. And um basically we're sorry, I got a lot of wind noise. Yeah, I'm getting away. Oh, it did from my car. Yeah, a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Don't worry, I'm gonna I'm gonna find somewhere to park actually. Sorry about that.
SPEAKER_03That's another scene from his uh from his car. That's another scene from the movie, by the way. Somebody parking in a car.
SPEAKER_01Sorry, Dylan. Uh yeah, I was like, I was like, hi. I was like, that's a lot of noise in my ear. I don't even can't hear myself now.
SPEAKER_03It was fine in the beginning, and then it started picking up a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's just supposed to be the road he's on specifically. Um, so yeah, uh, we're we're picking up again in May, starting to shoot um the next chapter. Kind of we're figuring out which chapters. So our film is broken up into chapters following different characters, which is kind of the unique thing that we're doing.
SPEAKER_03So essentially over like he breaks up some of his films into parts.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes, yeah, yeah. So each chapter has a perspective change to a new character's perspective. Um, and then in the last chapter, they all combine and it becomes an ensemble. Um, so we've already filmed chapter one, which is the character Will, and he's known as the realist. Um, and so we're kind of working around the uh schedules of all of the actors for each chapter on when they're available. So actually the next thing we're filming is chapter three, um, because the availability uh for our chapter three cast is more uh, you know, available to work in May than our chapter two cast. Um there's crossover between the chapters and the characters all crossover with each other, but then there are particular characters that are not in particular chapters um, you know, that uh are in the broader film. So uh we're actually, yeah, part three is what we're up to next. Um and yeah, we're in the middle of uh we're actually literally I was on the phone with uh my producer Erica last night, and we were figuring out the final you know dates to send out to crew uh and casts that we're actually set to film.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_01So that's that's where we're at within another time. And so we're we're getting ready to start filming again.
SPEAKER_03So for uh your schedule, have you been doing um have you been aiming for just weekends, or you know, have you been able to find little nooks and crannies within a a week of particularly just to be able to film? Because you don't need everyone, I would imagine, for each scene. You know, sometimes you can squeeze other people in. Has has that been much of a problem?
SPEAKER_01Or um it's yes and it's both it's kind of a what we've been doing, the approach we've had is reaching out to our casts first and saying, hey, what are your conflicts right now? What can you absolutely not make work? Um, and then we've been able to kind of break down availability from there and start laying out whether or not weekends work or weekdays work. Um, most of our cast is available almost any time, which is great. Um, the the big key for us is locations. So some of our locations are like, hey, you know, we're willing to use this place for super cheap, but it has to be on a day we're closed. Um, you know, so sometimes sometimes that means shooting on a Sunday when you don't want to shoot on a Sunday. Sometimes it means uh, you know, shooting overnights because that's when they're closed. Um, so it's really just about working the availability of the location next. Um, and so we have a few locations that are going to be weekend only locations. Um, you know, so this next tracker is probably gonna allot to being mostly Saturday, Sundays.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha.
Rewriting On Set And Cutting Redundancy
SPEAKER_03When when it comes to the once once a director is in production, or even sometimes toward like the late end of pre-production, you kind of start to view your script a little bit differently, um, especially when it comes to actually being able to apply and make it a reality. What what was what did you notice about end of another time the way you wrote it once you started heading into actually being able to shoot the film?
SPEAKER_01Oh, um that's a great question. So uh I'm I'm constantly tweaking and revising, and even the way I direct is um a little different than some others, in that I don't I'm not married to my dialogue. So a lot of times I I want my actor to find something that they can grip their claws on and just really sink into. So sometimes I'll phrase something in a way that works in my head, but the actor's just not clinging to it. And so I'm like, in the moment, sometimes I'm rewriting and saying, Hey, this, you know, let's find a way that you feel this, you know, so that we can get the most authentic performance. Um, but as we were doing part one, I realized even as I was editing part one, um, there were a couple moments that I'm like, man, this is a double beat. I've I've really I'm hitting this, I'm hitting the audience over the head with the same information um and the same emotion, you know, too many times in such a short amount of time. And I was I started cutting stuff, um, you know, killing my darlings. They're like, man, we spent five hours on this scene, and I just realized this entire scene's redundant. Um, now that I see it and feel the emotional beats. And so I've actually gone back and started looking at the rest of the script, and I'm like, how many double beats do I have left in this script? Like, how many, like for each of these characters, am I over, am I hitting the audience over the head with this too much? Um, and not trusting that they're gonna get the point. Um, so it's been a little bit of that is just refining. It's stuff that I'm I'm trying to edit in my head beforehand because we don't have the budget to waste that kind of time, you know, shooting stuff that we don't need.
SPEAKER_00I don't mean to interrupt. Um, you know, when I was when I first got into filmmaking, um, I was told by a uh a good friend of mine that there were three, and and then and this wasn't something that he actually said, it's actually, I guess, a saying in the industry, but there's the film that you write, the film that you shoot, and the film that you edit.
Audience Interpretation And Unlikable Characters
SPEAKER_00And there's three films, but I think I've one thing that I've noticed is I think there's actually five films. There's the film you think of, the film that you write, the film you shoot, the film you edit, and then the film that's in the audience's head. So I think, you know, like yeah, when what you were saying, you know, you kind of like you kill your darlings, or um, you know, like you kind of actually get to see the location. Sometimes it's good that the script is really just there for a blueprint to kind of give you the right direction, you know.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. I I I'm glad you said it that way because there have been so many times where like my vision may have been completed on a project, and an you know, I'll have an audience member at a festival or something come up to me and be like, oh man, and they'll tell me that they got something completely different out of that film than I ever intended. And they're like, Wow, I just can't believe the way you played with this. And I'm like, man, that never crossed my mind. Um, you know, that it was sometimes sometimes a story is just as simple as this is the story I wanted to tell, and there isn't that extra layer, but they're finding those extra layers that maybe they're subconscious, or maybe it's just something that's going on in that person's life, and this is the film they needed to see in that moment to trigger that, you know. Um, so I think that's one of the beauties of it is that you're right, that the all there is the film the audience sees. I mean, I watch films all the time, but I get a different tone and feel out of it, and something different out of it than maybe what the broader audience gets. Um, and it doesn't mean that they're wrong or that I'm wrong, it's just how the art spoke.
SPEAKER_03I think the way that people uh watch films also affects that the uh the way that they relate to the film. Even if you have a very coherent and consistent um uh thread that goes across you know the audience and everyone kind of agrees, oh yeah, we did watch the same thing. Um if you have, you know, for example, within another time, there's it's an ensemble cast. Based on how they relate to one character versus the other, it's going to change how they view the story.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I would say that even when we did the table read for that, um the cool part, like when we did an initial table read, like even just for feedback from friends, um everybody had a different favorite character, which was really cool. Like everybody was like, Oh man, I really you know, people like I really feel for Danny, or uh, you know, oh I was weeping for Zoe, and like you know, there were people that connected with all these different characters.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I'm actually parking now.
SPEAKER_03Oh, it's a nervous go, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's okay. So everybody kind of had a different uh character they really loved um from it. And then but one of the feedback, the piece of feedback I got from the initial script was that there was a particular character that nobody likes. Everybody was like, Oh man, I can't stand this guy. I I want to punch him in the face.
SPEAKER_03Did you design it that way?
SPEAKER_01No, I was uh I did not. Um and uh and funny enough, it's a character that's loosely based on me. And um there you go. All the negatives about him were things that are. Yeah, it's well, but it's a lot, it was a lot of self-criticism, right? And a lot of so and self-reflection. And I realized that I was afraid to give myself any likable qualities. And um, that was something I learned about myself pretty quickly in the process. And so I went back to the drawing board. I'm like, here, what are the ways that I can try to make him a little more relatable to the audience and for people to understand that this person this is a person that's just going through a spiral, and um, you know, and he doesn't know what he wants, and that's part of his problem. Like, that's why everybody's frustrated by him because he can't figure out what he wants.
SPEAKER_00Um, you know, and that's it wasn't necessarily that uh filmmaking was just a really expensive form of therapy.
SPEAKER_01Steven Spielberg said he said it about the fablemans. He said, he said, you know, I I it was either make this movie or go to therapy. And he said it's just he's like it's uh it's a multi-million dollar therapy session, yeah. Um, but no, I I and what's funny is I was actually talking about that with somebody the other day, um, was that this film felt like a therapeutic session for me, especially shooting part one, because part one's loosely based on you know me, because Will is based on me. And um, you know, like there were moments in when we were filming that I was like, oh man, this is a different feeling than I've ever had directing something. Like there's I'm watching it's like watching a car crash that I can't stop sometimes. Like, I'm like, oh man, why is he making that mistake? Because I made that mistake, or like, oh man, why is this guy acting like a moron? You know, um, why can't you just enjoy the moment, you know? Um, so that was kind of weird for me, but um also kind of therapeutic and cool. Um so I'm really looking forward to this the next couple parts because like they're less focused on like my side of the story and more focused on a lot of my friends from that era's sides of the story. Um, so it I get to explore that in a more fun way and a more nostalgic way than um working through my own crap.
SPEAKER_03So with uh your film, it's very nostalgic and it's it's reflective uh from a personal sense for you.
Dylan’s Nostalgia And Finding The Tone
SPEAKER_03But what about you, Dylan? Where did you write your film from?
SPEAKER_00Um it's really hard to say because, well, I mean, for one, uh with some of it being set in the late 70s and early 80s, I've always been really interested in that time period anyway, because like when I was growing up, like I'm 28, but I mean we I grew up in a very old house with you know wooden doors, pink fluffy carpet, old round wooden TVs. I played the Atari, the Nintendo, you know, like on the TV, it was either MASH, Three's Company, Six Million Dollar Man, you know, like it was all these older shows that would just be on rerun. So I I really just I don't know, there's something about the time period that's uh that's always called out to me. So when I was kind of developing uh, you know, the serial killer story and all that, I don't know, that was the time period that I really gravitated towards. And I think I I think I view the film now probably I think I view it differently, even more so than when you and I talked about it. Because I think now actually being able to live in this world and and mess with all these characters, it's almost like beforehand, it was almost like I had an agenda. I wanted to make a film and I wanted to put my vision on the screen, but I feel like now I'm almost chasing some type of feeling, like a nostalgic feeling. And um, I don't know, it's it's it's kind of where the film takes shape in its own way without me having to do it. Um specifically, yesterday I did some camera test in the woods uh for um the sheriff and deputy scene, and there was something about it, like I don't want to sound corny and say that there was something supernatural about it, because it's definitely not, it's just my filmmaker anxiety playing tricks on me for sure. Uh but when I was filming the test shots uh with our subject in the woods, the wind was blowing and the way like the sun was coming through the trees, and it was almost like the environment was saying, hey, get ready, because when you come back, you know, like we're gonna be waiting for you. And I don't know, it just feels like the film is kind of out of my control now. And it's not that I'm trying to figure out what it is, I'm just trying to figure out really how it's making me feel right now.
SPEAKER_03Right. I mean, when a lot of people go into the woods, they start hearing things. That's not that's not uncommon.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_03You ever talk to a Native American?
SPEAKER_00It's it's it's strange because I feel like I don't know, I it I guess to filmmakers it could be scary because your your whole viewpoint's changing with your film, but for me, it's just now that I'm actually in the thick of it and stuff, I really can't think of any inspirations or anything. I just kind of I'm I'm just telling you the feeling of what I'm feeling now, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03I think I remember when um after I read it, I think I mentioned like it feels tonally, it feels similar to Gone Girl. Do you do is that accurate or is that still accurate?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I've I've actually had uh when it comes to comparisons with the film, I've had a few people say that it kind of reminds them of Zodiac, uh Gone Girl. Um someone actually when I was I talked to someone and they're like, your elevator pitch is the notebook meets silence of the lambs. And I was like, that's very strange. Because it's going back in two time periods where someone's telling a story and we're seeing the flashbacks, which is basically the notebook, and like the curious case of Benjamin Button. So yeah, I would have agreed with you. I would have said like Gone Girls, Zodiac, Silence of the Lambs, but some people have just thrown out films that I'm like, really? That's that's what you got from reading the script, and so there's no telling what the audience is going to think about it when they watch it.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha.
Producers And Funding Reality Checks
SPEAKER_03Joe, with you, um, tell me about your pre-production process that you worked with uh Erica, your producer, on, and how how has that played out? Has it played out according as you thought? And you know, have you needed to adapt it certain ways because of schedules? Like what's what's happened on that front?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, well, number one, Erica's super organized and I'm super scatterbrained. So um I that helps already. Um the pre-production process is it's fun because um for a long time I was my own producer, uh, for a very long time. Um and you're like, oh too long.
SPEAKER_03Thank God.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, trying trying to keep everything organized in my head while also being the director and trying to be creative and trying to um I don't know, play, be able to like be friendly to everybody on set and like build that trust with my actors. I'm also having to be the bad guy and keep things moving sometimes when I don't want to. So I was like my own AD and my own producer early on, and it was just didn't work that well. So like Erica and I and are a great tag team because like I I go out and build connections with people and like and find locations pretty easily and make friends with people to try to get spots. And Erica is like she brings that sense of professionalism that I need because I constantly like John Mulaney calls it, running for mayor of nothing. Um, where I just I'm I'm constantly shaking hands and kissing babies and like trying to be friends with people who don't care that I want to be friends with them. Um and uh Erica gives that sense of professionalism and reels me back in from being overly relatable uh to people. I'm like, hey, you know, I want to know everything about you. And she's like, let's just get to the questioning. Like, they won't waste their time, Joe. And I'm like, thanks. Um, so that's that's been the best part of the process is that like I like I can easily say, you know, I don't know, ask Erica.
SPEAKER_03What was what was Erica's biggest concern, uh logistically speaking, going into production? Or that you forestall in pre-production.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I mean, that we might not get funded. Like, I mean, there's always a possibility you're not gonna have the funding, and we're gonna try to make it happen whether or not we have the funding. So um just on a whim and a prayer, and that's I mean, that's always gonna be the biggest challenge of a production like this. And you know, we haven't been fully funded. We're we're just making this happen on pennies while we, you know, while we're trying to live our dream of making this speaker. And um, you know, so I think that's that's probably the thing that she solved the most. And um, I think she's so good at dealing with that in a professional manner, um, and helping keep me organized and being on top of me sometimes when I'm like dragging my feet on something because I'm in a creative rut, or like, oh hey, this week's just kind of down. And she's like, no, no, no, no, we we gotta focus. Like, I need this from you, Joe. I'm like, okay. So yeah. So she's uh she's good at like driving the uh you know, steering the ship or driving the stagecoach here, um, and keeping me on the road sometimes when I tend to get distracted. Um yeah.
SPEAKER_03What about you, Dylan? Because you're in pre-production right now, right?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I have well, he he's very right about the funding. That is, and I and that's gonna be, I think, the main hurdle for a lot of filmmakers too, because you know, we're in a position where we don't have the money to film what we want, but we don't want that to restrict us from making our art. Um, and I think we should be encouraging filmmakers to like even if you don't have enough money for a location or you know, um or or to pay someone, you know, no, you should be encouraging filmmakers to go out there and make those connections and kiss those babies and get those locations, you know, because I mean yeah, because if we if we don't, if we don't have uh, you know, if we don't encourage the filmmakers to make their stuff, then they're just gonna move to other things like AI and you know, all that stuff. And and we don't want that. Um, and I'm and I'm kind of like I'm a producer on Rocky Wake, but I also have two other producer uh producers that are also actors as well. So I'm doing all the location scouting and stuff, and it's funny because um I have no issue finding locations for free, but I'll like meet someone and uh say, hey, can I use your house or like use your mom's house or whatever? And uh there was one instance where I told this guy, I was like, dude, your mom's house is perfect, can I use it? And he was like, Yeah, we'll just go in there and film. And I was like, Well, I really need her to like, you know, I need to go in there and take pictures and I need her to sign this location release form. And he was like, dude, he was like, Can we just not do that? Like, can we just go in there and film? And because she just doesn't care, and I'm like, Yeah, but I need this. And he's like, Dylan, she's an old woman. Just go in there with your cameras and film.
SPEAKER_03And I'm like, Sometimes you gotta risk it for the biscuit.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah, and and and most people, it's not that they don't care, it's just they never feel the passion the way that you do. That's kind of what I've what I've realized, is they just they don't understand it the way that you do, like they want to help you out, but they don't care as much as you do, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_03I mean, that's natural.
SPEAKER_01I I would say too, like it's funny. I I we just filmed for winter film. So uh we well, because our crew was out uh out for the month of February, I was like, hey, why don't we just do a winter film for fun?
Locations And Showing Owners The Process
SPEAKER_01A couple of us got together, made one happen, and uh Dylan, are you familiar with winter film?
SPEAKER_03Because it's uh it's a what is that? It's a it's a local uh film festival that happens. Uh you're from northern Kentucky, right? But how northern are you?
SPEAKER_00I'm central, I'm about an hour, I'm an hour from Cincinnati.
SPEAKER_03No, okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
unknownOkay.
SPEAKER_01So winter film is a uh competition in the month of February every year where a bunch of Cincinnati-based filmmakers we compete for the month of February to make a short film in 28 days. Um we write it, shoot it, everything. It's kind of like the 48 hour film project, but like over the course of a month. Um, so we decided to do a winter film this year. I hadn't competed in three years, and uh I ended up writing a church comedy. And I was like, but the church I go to was under construction for the month of February, and so I like suddenly I don't have a location. So I called up uh a couple packages. Your friends and was like, Hey, you know, do you have a location that I can make this work? Um, and so I called in that favor and I'm like over the phone, I'm like, explain it. I need you to understand what this entails before you agree to it because like it's invasive, it feels invasive. And when you see it happening, you're like, We're taking doors off of hinges and moving things around, and like, and they're like, What like they're watching this happen, they're like, We thought you were just gonna show up with a camera. Like, and I was like trying to get you to understand the process, and like, but then everything's back together exactly how you, you know, left it. If you didn't watch us film, you would have no idea that we were even there, and um, so there's that level of trust, they don't know what it entails. The same thing happened with um, you know, I was shooting at a barber shop for our film The Squalor, and it's the barbershop I go to all the time. Um, and my barbers wonderfully, and um her and her uh her husband were like, Hey, yeah, we'll you can use the shop. And we showed up with our crew, and suddenly, like, boom, there's all this equipment, there's lights hanging from the drop ceiling, and like uh everything's all set up, and they're like, This was all set up within an hour, and like suddenly our barber shop looks entirely different, and then we shoot for two hours, and then an hour later, it's you know, after four hours, we're in and out, and everything's gone, and it looks exactly the same as before. And she's like, I had no idea what goes into just creating a scene. Like, they got to watch, they were. I was I pulled them over to like my makeup I do a makeshift video village. I don't like uh like doing a planted video village. I go on an iPad that way I can move around the set and walk in the space with the actors. Um, and so like I'll pull over my iPad and I'll be like, I'll invite like uh you know uh like property owners and stuff, but come watch a couple takes, like watch, watch the screen and see what we do. You can kind of see how we move the lights and how it changes on camera. Um, because I want them to feel like it's a good experience, like, oh, I just learned something. I learned how this process works, um, which I think has made it more effective when I get to locations rather than it feeling invasive.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think a lot of people, uh a lot of filmmakers anyway, they forget that many people don't know what the behind the scenes look like of a movie, which is why they're excited at first to be able to be like, Oh yeah, come make your movie. I want to see how a movie's made. And then they see like everything get turned upside down and inside out, and they're like, Oh no, did I just ruin my life? And they're like, No, no, no, we're gonna clean up, it's fine.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Yeah, um, one so one thing I think uh specifically with indie filmmakers that have this problem, I don't think big budget productions do. Um, but like filming nighttime scenes in the daytime, where like I I've been in a lot of situations where I'll have to put like blackout curtains over windows and uh all that, you know, and it's and it's funny because um like I I'll show my grandma footage of stuff that I've shot, like specifically Rocky Wake, because I shot this one scene with Bernadette, um, who is the uh the lady with the afro that you see in the teaser trailer. Um and I showed my grandma that and I was like, yeah, so we like uh we I was like that that is set around midnight, but we shot that at like 4 p.m. in the day, and you know, all that stuff. And I'll try to explain it to her, and she's like, I mean, she doesn't really care, but you know, at the same time, she it she thinks it's cool. Uh, but yeah, nobody really knows what goes on in in production. Like, especially when you're watching a shot, like you see this nice, clean, beautiful shot. I promise you, if they were to take the camera and drop it, you would see wires everywhere, an Apple box, you know, you would see plugs everywhere.
SPEAKER_03And the most fun thing to explain is uh uh to the location owners is that duck uh gaff tape doesn't leave residue, and they because they just start seeing duct tape go up everywhere, and they're like, oh no, I'm gonna have all these lines everywhere. It's like, no, no, no, no. It's fine. Yep. It's fine. That's why there's a big difference between jaff tape and duct tape.
Distribution Plans And Self-Distribution Math
SPEAKER_03So what have conversations been like uh with your producers when it comes to what may or may not happen when it comes to promoting your film after it's completed? Like what do you plan on doing with it?
SPEAKER_01Um and our hope is distribution and streaming. We're gonna we're gonna try to send it off to the festival uh circuit for the time being, uh, unless we have a distributor ready to go. But we already have a few distributors interested, um, just based on the project announcement itself.
SPEAKER_03So is Chase Crawford one of them?
SPEAKER_01I can't, I can't there are there are there are multiple.
SPEAKER_03Okay, all right.
SPEAKER_01It's not just Chase Chase did mention he might be interested, but uh there are others as well.
SPEAKER_03Gotcha, gotcha. Chase Crawford yet. I mean for uh Dylan Chase Crawford's a uh one of the more well-known uh local producers because he has a he does a lot of things, but he he's a filmmaker that's built his own company for to not just production company, but also for distribution. So he has a kind of a unique experience when it comes to that way. I've only met him like once or or twice. But what about you, Dylan?
SPEAKER_01And to clarify real quick, Chase did not necessarily say that he was Chase has told me over the years anytime I make a feature to call him. So um, so there's that that's definitely a route we could go, potentially.
SPEAKER_03So okay. Dylan.
SPEAKER_00Um for Rocky Wake, so I my my film Pesadilla that I did, we did um we did get distribution for that. That what we got a Blu-ray release, streaming release. Um and for Rocky Wake, we're actually we so I mean like we've gotten emails from other distribution companies interested in the film just saying, like, hey, send it whenever you get done. We want to watch a screener. Um, but the the boat that I'm in is we're actually going to do a roadshow when the film is done, and that's just gonna be to promote it. Like we're gonna do like a local um premiere, uh, like a local, not necessarily completely local, but like when I when I'm talking about local Kentucky, Ohio, Indiana, we have a few theaters that are interested in showing it. So once we get done with that run of things, um I could go to the distribution company that I have been working with, but I do want to try try out self-distribution at least for a very limited time, because the money uh that I've made from Pesadilla, I mean, we almost we we probably could have made a majority of our money back, but distribution companies they take like 50%, and then taxes on all of that. And um there's a few distribution companies that I've kind of looked into. Um have you guys ever heard of Gravitas Ventures?
SPEAKER_03Nope.
SPEAKER_00I actually really like the way that they do things because they do they do a streaming only uh distribution deal where essentially they'll take your film and they'll put it on streaming, so they'll put it on Amazon, uh Tubi, sometimes Hulu, Netflix, like they can they can get them on those platforms, but they take 30%, you keep 70%, and you're allowed to outsource your Blu-rays. So if you want to make your own Blu-rays and sell them, you can. Or if you have another company like a boutique Blu-ray company, they're they're allowed to release the Blu-rays as well. So um we don't necessarily have a clear plan for distribution. We know that distribution is on the table. We just want to make sure from past experience we do the right thing this time around, you know, because this we have a bigger budget than we had with Pesadilla, and we want to make our money back and um, you know, hopefully have a good return on investment to make more films.
SPEAKER_03Have you guys noticed actually is that um uh hard things like DVDs and Blu-rays are actually kind of making a little bit of a comeback now? It's sort of becoming the new vinyl. Um, and I know this because firsthand, because my younger brother lives with me and he's been collecting these like collector steelbooks of his favorite films. Uh and that seems to be, I don't know if it's just my algorithm, but it also seems to be a trend that seems to be happening. And one of the saving graces, if if that actually does does come to fruition, um, you know, on a popular scale, uh, it's gonna it's gonna help indie filmmakers out because that that's a major, that's a majorly lost income stream that hasn't been around for about, I don't know, 10-15 years, something like that.
SPEAKER_00And it's the biggest one too, because when uh when I would get basically uh my paychecks from Bayview, they kind of tell you like how much money you've made off of like the streaming uh services, like different streaming services basically. And the first uh paycheck that I got from Bayview for Pesadilla, um, we made over 75% of our revenue from Blu-ray sales. We sold like 250-something Blu-rays, we sold like 250 units um of this Blu-rays for Pesadilla. And um, yeah, I mean it's because you're you're selling the film at that point for like $25, sometimes $30 for Blu-rays. I mean, I don't set the prices for it, but you know, like I'm I'm usually used to paying around that, and you get to just keep so much of that because it only costs like two dollars to make and print these things, and then you're selling them for $30, and you get to keep all that income as opposed to streaming, you're really relying on royalties, and you're relying on how much of the film that they watch. Because I think certain streaming services, the way they do it is they have like certain sections where, oh, if they watch the film to this point, you get like 12 cents. If you what they watch the film to this point, you get like 24 cents, etc.
Directing Actors And Building Trust
SPEAKER_03I want to take a second and compare and contrast your guys' directing styles because you're both writer directors, you're not just uh Joe, you've said before that you know you're not necessarily married to your dialogue, you just want the most honest thing from your actors. Uh Dylan, when it comes to getting uh a decent performance, you know, as well as Joe, what what's the first thing you focus on when it comes to not just relating to your talent, but also guiding them to the performance that you um you're you're hoping to get?
SPEAKER_00Well, I rehearsals are very important. Um, I like to work with with my actors and kind of uh because I'm I'm in the same boat. I'm not really too married to to the dialogue because I mean I really don't think you can be to an extent because you could write something and they could word it or say it in a way that's better than the way that you wrote it. Um and that actually happens a lot. Um, so I usually try to rehearse as much as I can, but you know, sometimes when you're doing you're working on indie films, you kind of film the rehearsals anyway, so you have it. Um, but uh, but I I really just try to let them know that I'm comfortable with them changing things. Uh, because I'm someone that already likes to do like a bunch of takes anyway. Um, I remember for my last feature, we had a two-camera setup, and uh I ended up doing 24 takes for the same scene, and I did that for a lot of scenes. And I spoke to, yeah, I'm yeah, it's it it it was a problem there for a lot of.
SPEAKER_03I'm not married to my dialogue, but I will try it every which wedding Sunday just for the first time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and I and I did do that. And um, and there was a woman that I worked with on Rocky Wake. Her name was uh her name is Suzanne, and she uh dude, she is so fantastic. She was the older woman in the hospital bed, and we kind of talked, and I she wanted to know the way that I worked and stuff, and I told her I was like, I was like, look, I do a lot of takes. I hope that's not a problem. And she was like, Well, that's that's not a problem, sweetie, but we're gonna get it done in five takes. And I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, oh, okay. And we did too. We did. We uh when we shot those scenes, I was usually using the around the first, second, or third take that she would do. There was one where I did fifty, I think it was close to 15 takes, uh, but it was uh it also involved a lot of blocking and stuff, so it wasn't necessarily her fault. It was, you know, like a lot of moving pieces going around with it. Um, so it's really just trusting the actor. Um, you really gotta let them feel comfortable with the story because even though you wrote and you're writing and directing it, they are taking their time and a piece of themselves and putting it in the film, and you have to trust them to do that, you know?
SPEAKER_03Joe?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um I what's funny when we're talking about takes. I when if I get to long more than five takes, I'm like, okay, let's we need to reevaluate where we're at. I start I work uh what I try to do is uh I we jokingly call it pre-direction. Uh I spend a lot of time with my actors uh deep diving their character um ahead of time and kind of the tone I'm looking for from them. Um and I try to establish a like kind of uh tonal scale from one ten of where I want them like, hey man, when we're when we get to those four, like this is where I want you to baseline. And then that way when we get to that eight or that nine, it feels like an eight or a nine. And then when we get to the ten, it gets crazy. Um but I I I try to bring it back to them finding a nugget that they can hold on to that makes them feel like this is real for them. Um, and so I always describe it to them at the very beginning of the process. I'm like, you and I are going to birth this person together. We're gonna parent and raise this character up together. Um, I was like, they're from my head, and you're gonna breathe life into them now. Um, so let's find a way that we can both, you know, come together and find what fits my vision, but also that you can sink your teeth into and really feel it and live in it. And um, it starts by building that connection of trust. Um, and I I tell actors early on, I'm like, my job is to tell a story. And in this, in this job, I was like, I'm gonna be as straightforward with you as possible. Um, I was like, I'm gonna be as loving and respectful as I can about it, but at the same time, I'm gonna be straightforward with you because I don't believe in just saying good job. I want to say, you know, that was excellent, or hey, we're not there yet. And I want you to understand that in trust that I'm gonna catch you when you fall and um help keep you on the ship, uh, you know, not falling over the ocean. And um then in that in turn, I can trust them to breathe life into this character when they have ideas and sprinkles, like, yeah, it's if this could be better or you know, uh improve upon what I had in my head. In a lot of ways, in a lot of cases, it does. But then there's also that trust of, hey, I appreciate what you're trying to do, but it's not meeting my vision. It's just not there. It's not, it doesn't, it feels out of character or out of place. So let's get back to where we were. So it's like it's that back and forth trust, that friendship and kinship with uh my actors that I'm able to um kind of foster. And so, like a lot of times that's why I like to use actors I've worked with before, or I'll bring someone in for a supporting role and kind of start building that trust. And then when I have them available for a lead, then boom, we've already got that trust and that rapport. And it's so easy, easy to plug them into a lead role so that we can, you know, get more out of them and the best out of them. Because I I always tell them, I'm like, I want to challenge you to do something you've never done or to think in a uh think about a character the way you've never thought of one. Um, because I think so many actors in this area get typecast and underutilized when they have more to them. Um, you know, so I like to take actors that are, you know, being typecast into particular roles and like let's split that on its head and do something abnormal that lets them play.
SPEAKER_03Mm-hmm. That happens a lot in the indie world, is where one person will do a role really, really well or a type of role, and then everybody in the community will be like, oh, I got a similar role. Like this, I'm gonna get that person, and then they just they kind of get pigeonholed a little bit. You know, I remember uh every almost every female actress that I've I've had on the show, they all want to say, I want to do a comedy. And it's because they're they're used to crying all the time and and they're tired, and they're tired of it.
SPEAKER_01Uh yes,
Making The Work Only You Can
SPEAKER_01that's actually what I did for winter film. I ended up doing a comedy and starring starring Brandi Botkin because she never gets asked to do comedy, and I'm like, she's hilarious. Uh, in fact, she plays the role so earnestly, like that our our winter film, it's called Holy Crap, um uh would not work if Brandy wasn't so earnest with uh the way she approaches the character.
SPEAKER_00Have you had that yet, Dylan? Well, it's funny you bring up, you know, an actor wanting to work on a comedy or wanting to like not uh typecast people. You know, I really agree with that because I mean, even when you're trying to make a film, like I met with an investor for Rocky Wake and they read the script and they liked it, but they basically told me they were like, Well, look, this your script is over two hours and 10 minutes long, it's not a straightforward horror film. And they even asked me, they're like, Can you write like a slasher or a zombie, something with like a quick turnaround that we could do? And look, I mean, you know, it's nice to have those options and stuff, like, yeah, I'll make this zombie film if you're gonna fund it. But that's just that's not me. I want to make a drama, you know. Like I want to make, I want to make something that's that's different and and something that, you know, like I don't know. I don't want to do the same thing that everyone else is doing. I want to take those risks. And um, you know, that's that's cool that you decided to do a comedy because a lot of people a lot of people are kind of scared to do comedies because I I I don't want to say it's like a saying, but basically if you're going to do a comedy, you better have like a a really well-known actor or something, or an actor that's already made themselves look stupid or something like that. And I'm like, no, other people are allowed to be funny, you know, like other people can be funny.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01For the record, like my comedy is from Winter Film, it's a short. That's the winter film short. But our feature is uh it's a I would say there's comedic elements, but it's more of a drama. The feature film is. So I'm in the same boat as you, though, that selling a drama over a horror film is very, very difficult. And yeah, I I so many local directors are making horror films and they're getting their features funded or even crowdfunded easily because people it's easy to sell horror because it doesn't even matter if it's bad, people like it. Like if it that might be part of it for them. If it like looks low quality, they may be like, oh, that's part of it. Like that's part of a fun of bad, can't be horror, and like there's a fan base for it. And I'm over here, like, I'm so bad at horror, I can't tell a horror story worth anything. I just my mind like it doesn't work for me. I just I I've tried to tell horror stories before, and I think they're my worst shorts uh worst projects in general, and so I'm like, I'm just gonna do what I know. And that's when I got challenged by one of our actresses, Danielle Meyer. Um, she's phenomenal, and she's been a good friend of mine for years. And she was like, Joe, every time you pitch an idea to me, it's all about, well, this might get this would be able to get funded, or this people would care about this. She's like, But what I'm hearing is that you don't care about it. Yeah, she was like, You're pitching me ideas that are marketable, but you don't, you're not passionate about them. She was like, and she's like, and that's gonna show through. She was like, make something you're passionate about and you care about. And so that's what I did. I wrote end of another time because I was like, Oh, this is an era I love and people I love, and um something I want people to know about.
SPEAKER_00One of the uh actresses that we casted uh for Rocky Wake, uh, Anthony, you've read the script, the actress that's playing Catherine. Her husband uh works for uh Atomic Monster. He works with like James Wan, and um, you know, he uh he was actually at the Conjuring Last Rights like special premiere that they had. So we're I'm sitting there in a group chat with him and her, and he's like uh, I forget what he said, but he was like, Yeah, I'm sitting with Osgood and and James right now watching uh the conjuring or whatever. And I was having a conversation with him and her basically about what even is marketable. Like, yeah, people do say that horror is marketable. Yeah, make a film that's 80 minutes, it's gonna sell. But in reality, you're just putting yourself in this pool of water that everyone else is in. And like you look at something like The Brutalist, which was made for 9.6 million dollars, three and a half hours long, period piece, and um very indie film. Like it even looks very indie, even being shot on VistaVision. But that movie, people talked about it because of its runtime. People talked about it because of its ambition. And I feel like, yeah, you can make a zombie film or a slasher film, and you might get funding a lot easier. But what about all those other zombie films and slasher films you're gonna be competing against, like on Tubi and all these other streaming services, as opposed to you making your singular vision, say you're a filmmaker and you made a two and a half hour long drama or comedy or something like that? Well, I feel like that has just uh, you know, is I think you have a chance to actually get that out there as much as one of those other films, because now your film's a conversation piece in the filmmaking community. Like, oh, this crazy person made a two and a half hour long epic in his small town. I want to watch this.
SPEAKER_03Well, I think we're I I can't wait, honestly, for I I genuinely think that, especially in today's day and age, that we're tired of short, cons uh easily consumable content, especially with social media. And we're I think the the thing's gonna be popular in the next maybe 10 years. I'm not sure if it's when it's gonna happen, but longer form movies, especially the three-hour runtime, is gonna make a little bit of comeback because we're I think that's the only thing that's novel at at this point. You know, I recently sat down and watched for the first time uh the first Godfather, and it was so refreshing to actually sit down and enjoy something that felt like a book. You know what I mean? It was I uh that's the only thing that I think could maybe bring the ND world a little bit more mainstream, is if we actually are able to, you know, go for those longer runtimes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and there's nothing there's nothing more heartbreaking than watching a like an 80 or 90 minute 90 minute long film and appreciating it, but knowing that like you could have loved it more if it had a little bit, you know, if it had more meat on it. I think of like Michael Chimino's Heaven's Gate. And when they uh when he made that film, like keep in mind he was kind of crazy. Like he delivered them a five-hour-long rough cut, and they all started crying in the office. But he ended up having like his film is three and a half hours long, and it's a it's an underrated masterpiece, I think. I've gone to the filming locations and stuff for it. Like it's it's a film that means a lot to me, but there's a 90-minute cut out there. You trimmed a three and a half hour long film to 90 minutes. And like, how can the audience have anything to chew at that point? You know, like sure, it might be slow at times or they might have to invest themselves in it, but when those credits roll, those are the films that stick with you.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, for sure. Because it takes, especially as an adult, it takes a little bit longer, I think, to actually settle in for a movie and actually get involved with if the world even if it can grab you in the first place. And then, you know, like for me, it takes like at least 45 minutes, generally speaking, if I'm watching a movie to just forget that I'm watching a movie, you know, if it can grab me like that, and then you only have 45 minutes left in a or you know, an hour left in a typical movie nowadays. So you only feel like you're watching an hour-long movie, realistically.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's uh it's a weird thing because there we also live in the world of mini-series as well, um, which I like a good miniseries, don't get me wrong, but if I ever see a film with like a three-hour runtime, I don't I just don't get scared. I actually I'm kind of interested. I'm like, wow, what is this person trying to tell me?
SPEAKER_03Joe, I think did you have something to say a second ago? I think I could maybe cut you off.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh well, I was gonna say about um, you know, uh it's easy. I think it's easy for directors sometimes to get placed into plug-in play or plug-in direct, right? Um, and I think that's the difference sometimes between writer directors versus just directors, is like directing is just interpreting, you know, interpreting someone's story and uh interpreting somebody's vision and creating your own vision out of it. Um, but sometimes with us with writer directors, um we're all tours. You know, there's we we're auturs, yeah. I I want I love there's a reason I love watching Cohen Brother movies, you know, there's a reason I love um watching Damian Chazelle movies. I like they're movies that only they could have made. Um, you know, you can the reason that's the reason Stanley Kubrick is beloved and Quentin Tarantino is beloved, is because they're they make movies that only they could have made. And if I, you know, one of the best and most encouraging things I ever received as a director was Johnny Catalano told me one time he was like, Joe, he said, I love it when you play in a genre and make a movie that only you could have made in that genre. And I was like, man, that's the most encouraging thing I've ever heard because sometimes like I really questioned myself. I'm like, should I play in this genre? Should I not? Um, and he said he's like, You're really good at playing a genre to work for a JW Cox film. Um and so yeah, that that that's you know, where I kind of take some pride in that now. I'm like, okay, yeah, like I'm gonna make a film that only I can make, and I'm okay with that. And I'm not trying to compare it to what other people are doing, um, because other people can't make what I make and I can't make what other people make, you know. And I've tried I've tried to fall in love with that aspect of filmmaking more.
SPEAKER_03Biggest tip for directors fall in love with yourselves. That's what it is.
SPEAKER_00Yep, yeah. Embrace the ego. I I am gonna have to hop off here for uh for this location. Um, if that's okay, I'm not trying to abandon anyone.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Let me let me get one more final question out of you, real quick. Yeah. Um, what what's the biggest lesson you've learned since I last talked to you um in the process of making the film that you're making now that you know you didn't know beforehand?
SPEAKER_00You can still make something very ambitious, uh, ambitious if it's simple. I think my next film, I'm so glad my next film that I'm writing is contemporary. And the film that I'm I'm writing two features right now, one's contemporary and one's set within the span of 48 hours. Um, I don't think I'm gonna work on a like two and a half hour long period piece for a very long time.
SPEAKER_03You're traumatized.
SPEAKER_00I kinda am, I'm not gonna lie.
SPEAKER_03Okay, well, Dylan, thanks for coming on again. It was nice to see you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, thanks for having me. Sorry about the car and everything.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Nice meeting you, Dylan. Nice meeting you. Good luck on your film, Joe. You too. Take it easy, guys.
SPEAKER_03Deuces all right, Joe. It's just us.
Writing Lessons And Cutting With Relief
SPEAKER_03It's just us, it's just us again. Oh, same question to you, man.
SPEAKER_01What have I learned since the last time? Um, well, I think what I said about learning to appreciate myself and what I can do has been the big thing. Um, you know, trying to because I think it's easy for there's a level of trying to stay humble and not um get a big head about anything. And, you know, but sometimes it can become self-negative and self-deprecating. Um, and so appreciating that, you know, I Joe make Joe films, you know. Um, I make films that so I I think it's been uh kind of finding a way to appreciate that and tell stories that only I can tell from my perspective has been probably the biggest lesson I've learned. Um, and not feeling like and to stop, I mean, I think there's always that level of comparison with other filmmakers, um, but to stop caring about that as much.
SPEAKER_03Right. I mean, because you're there's a real worry, I think, for people that are similar in that way is that if they start embracing that, they're worried about developing an ego, you know, and then becoming that insufferable artist that nobody wants to be around.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, well, and I I think there's that's you know, there's the level of I'm trying to have a healthy ego because I I think there's a part of me that I don't respect my own films sometimes, and then because I only see the flaws, right? And that but then I'll hear other people if other people praise them like, well, they just don't know what they're talking about. Um, you know, there's a part of that, and then it's trying to understand, like, hey, you know, sometimes I do tell fun stories or sometimes I do have something to say and it's interesting. Uh, and that's okay. Like, it's okay to have my voice and um, you know, be proud of pieces of it, you know. Um, so I I I that's that's a big lesson that I'm constantly trying to push for myself is to have a healthy ego about it, you know.
SPEAKER_03Well the most well, uh like I wrote my my last feature I I I finished, I think what was it around March of it's either last year or the year before. Actually, I think it was last year. Um no, it was the year before. Never mind. Uh time doesn't exist anymore after 25. It's all um because the script was 170 pages, and I'm like, uh the first editing pass that I made through it, I'm like, oh shoot, there's nothing I can take out. Because a lot of the fresh uh it was still fresh in in my mind of what needed to be there or how I or even how I put it on. But what once I started editing uh going through it, I'm like, oh shoot, this scene actually isn't necessary. But what was weird about discovering that is that it didn't feel bad, it felt like a relief. I'm like, oh okay. I don't I don't have to, I don't have to have this scene in there. And there is this because when you're writing or you're even you know creating in general, there's this pressure to make it the best that can possibly be, and that usually lends itself to doing more, not less. Um and now that I'm also working on writing my next feature, because I'm doing that right as I'm finished at finishing it uh the final edit, like the gener, like the genuine actual edit of the the script. Um I didn't anticipate that that would be a lesson that I would learn because when you finish your like a work of art or you feel like you finished it, uh you you're I'm kind of bummed out personally that like, oh shoot, there's nothing else to improve. Because as an artist, you always kind of want to keep on fixing it until it's absolutely best. And you know, that's why I think the saying goes is that films aren't they're never finished, they're just released.
SPEAKER_01Yep, absolutely. Um, you know, I'll say even like even at the process of uh end of another time, um, figuring out how to write that in a way that I can still, you know, I I I like cutting scenes is being incredibly difficult. Oops, I dropped something. Um cutting scenes has become incredibly difficult even in the writing process, because the challenge I've run into the most with in another time is that because there's these uh partitioned off chapters of the film and they're following different characters, the characters each chapter has to have its own little arc. It has it have its own character arc within that chapter, but then a broader character arc in the entire film. So refining those and finding that, and then like sometimes I was I was coming into situations where I'm like, man, I haven't heard from this character in a while. And um, or hey, I haven't, you know, I don't feel like the audience is gonna even remember who this is if I don't find a way to tie them back in. And so I tried to find some creative ways to um tie in the characters into each other's chapters.
SPEAKER_03Well one second, I'm gonna have to wait. Oh shit.
SPEAKER_01I saw that cloud going down. I was like, I'm gonna stop my phrase right here because it's gonna stop me.
SPEAKER_03Well, I guess I that was the first time for some reason, I guess uh um editing or the Google Meet after like a certain period of time now, they require you to upgrade to a premium plan in order to keep the calls going. Because I've had like hour and a half, hour 45 calls before, but now I'm getting that notification and it's just like your call is ending in under a minute.
SPEAKER_01I'm like, why?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um it's to finish what I was saying. There's just that the finding the characters, um, you know, uh ways for the characters to grow throughout the story and not just in their own chapter, um, became the challenge because like when I'm I'm making a film that's loosely based on real events, and so a lot of the scenes in there are real things that happen, but I'm like, well, that person wasn't present for that thing. But like maybe for the movie, he you know, he or she does need to be present
Turning Real Life Into Watchable Drama
SPEAKER_01so that I so I can find a character moment for them that you know, you know, helps build their broader presence.
SPEAKER_03Um how did you you know kind of ride that line of because you're telling things that are based on real events, but it's also you got to make it a little bit more fictional in order for it to be an enjoyable film, obviously. Where did you find that line when it came to writing your story?
SPEAKER_01Um I think the biggest thing was number one, I didn't want to betray who my friends are. Um, so like I tried to stick to the truth of the basis of their character. Um, and uh then like I did some name changes in some places where I was like, I don't want this person to be embarrassed by these actions. Um, but I also wanted to like make sure I'm highlighting people in like a good light.
SPEAKER_03Um you are putting words in other people's mouths to a certain extent.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, but then in some situations I'm directly quoting them or paraphrasing something they said. Um, so that you know, that becomes a little awkward at times, but it was finding the drama of it all, I think is what you know, there's definitely drama and friendship breakups and like band breakups and stuff like that. So I think it's easy to find the drama. I think the hard part was actually like making some of the outlandish things we said or did feel believable. Um, because like I have things in the scripts that I've had crew members or cast members like text me when they read it or uh on set and be like, Did you guys actually do this? Like reality is fiction. Yeah, they'll be like, they'll be like, yeah, that that part's the fake part, right? And I'm thinking like it's like actually a lot of the mundane crap's the uh stuff that I had to make up. Because it's like that's not the stuff, but that's also like when you're looking back at the past, like that's not the stuff I remember. Like I remember the the dramatic stuff or the big stuff, you know. I don't always remember those mundane moments unless they were mundane moments that meant something, right? So, like there's a scene where Will and Sam talk on the back of the truck, um, and they kind of have a heart-to-heart. And um, you know, uh the real Sam is uh our drummer was a dude. Uh and I gender reversed the character because I I really wanted to work with Ashley Ballhorn. I wanted to bring a female perspective into the characters here, and um, so um, because I, you know, there are changes to all the characters. So um, but as a nod to the real Sam, I was like, I'm gonna keep her name being Sam. Um, but Will and Sam have this heart to heart. And um, you know, I when I sent the trailer of part one to you know, my old bandmates, Sam texts me, he's like, Man, I remember many a night, you know, where we talked in the car just heart to heart and about serious stuff that was going on and how important those were, man. He's like, that just brought back so many memories. Um, so that's kind of it's it's kind of cool to see that. And the best, the best compliment I got in the process of writing this was my old bandmates had read the script and um Logan, who was our singer at the time, that he there's a character named Danny who's loosely based on Logan, and his his story deviates a little bit from uh the real Logan, but has some real nuggets of um realism from Logan's real life and their um some really big character arc moments that happened for him for real. Um there wasn't as much like there's a lot of conflict between Will and Danny in the story. Um Logan and I didn't butt heads as much as these characters do in the story because we need to hype that up and drama dramatize that. Um, but because we were good friends that could be real with each other, and um, and the story though needs to be more like mom and dad are fighting. Um so uh but Logan read the script and he said there was a there's a particular scene where um the band is playing a prank um on a group of people, like kind of it's like a character building moment between these characters. And Logan texted me, he's like uh he wanted to meet for lunch, and we we met for lunch, we were talking through a couple of scenes, and he was like, By the way, did we do that? Because he said, everybody, he said, I cannot remember for the life of me ever doing that. But he said, That scheme, he said, everybody responded exactly like I would have expected them to. Um, he said, I like as I was reading it, I was hearing your voices, and I'm like, maybe it did happen. He said, and then he said, My wife read it, and my wife said, Did you guys actually do that? And he's like, he's like, that is he's like, it's so specific that it feels like it had to have happened. But and uh, and I'm not I'm trying not to reveal too much about what the scene's about, but um, I I told him, I was like, Well, actually, I said, I did pull that prank with a different set of friends, and I said, but I was looking for a moment that would be both funny and entertaining for the audience, but would also build our band's character moments. And so I said, I just said, What if I had pulled that prank with my bandmates? And I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna write it how they would have responded to this prank. And um, he said, Well, dude, you did a great job because he said I started having false memories about it because I was like, maybe we did, like, maybe we did do that. He said, So I so that was like the greatest compliment I've ever received that the realism in the dialogue is there because it was pretty much exactly how we all would have reacted to that.
SPEAKER_03Did you have a um even did you have a specific moment where you realized because there's a there's a line between you know the film being a personal nostalgic strip and then being uh able to be enjoyed by everybody who weren't wasn't a part of the experience? How did you strike that balance?
Inventing A Mythic Character Anchor
SPEAKER_01Um, I think that was my intent from the start. Um, I actually didn't want to go as personal as I ended up going um initially. So I pitched it to a lot of my team as a series of vignettes about like five musicians, and um, they all their stories all intertwine with each other after the fallout of a band. And as I was writing, I realized very quickly that I was writing all of my personal experiences. Um, and so to make that less so a lot of the number one, a lot of the team were excited by the personal nature of it because they said it felt real um from when they were reading the script, which is cool. I love that. Um, but then it came down to um that's where a lot of fictionalized stuff came in. I was like, okay, well, I can fictionalize some of this stuff to really add the entertainment value. And then I added a character who doesn't exist. Um, and she is uh a character that kind of represents that next level, that the level that all the musicians are trying, you know, or artists are trying to achieve. They're the person that's making it. There's the person in for knowing inexplicably to you, sometimes you're like you almost put them on a pedestal like they can do no wrong, and they've got their own crap that they're dealing with, right? Um, and they have that they just have the work ethic and the talent. And that's the thing. Like, it's like you might have talent, but do you have enough talent? You know, do you have that extra level to get there? Because um, you know, success is uh preparedness meets luck, right? Or talent, preparedness meets luck. Um, and so we kind of wanted to have a character that embodied that. So I took several mentor figures in my life and friends in my life who had just been there or had, you know, wise, incredible things to say, and then um made them into one character that's kind of this, and we've advertised her uh in the plot line as uh the lead singer of this band called Karma Bear. And her job is literally she's this like almost sage-like figure to all these different bandmates, and and as she appears in their stories, you know, she you know, sometimes is an advisor, sometimes she's an encourager, sometimes she's um, you know, there to pick you up when you're down, and then sometimes she's the villain. Um, so she's kind of whatever the plot needs her to be in those moments because to all these people they they see her as a different person, as a different perspective. And then when we get to her storyline, we kind of find out what makes her tick and where she's at, and mentally the strain of all of this. Um, and so we get to unfold a little bit of her story. Um, so that's kind of the she was like the the thing that was able to like help me keep it entertaining in that like I could use her almost as a mythical figure in the story that represents all these bands that have made it before. Um we referenced yeah, we we represent like we referenced 21 pilots all the time because they were a local band. You know, we were they were playing shows at the same time we were playing shows uh back in the day, and like we crossed paths with them all the time. They were great dudes. Um, but they were that like next level. It was hard to be friends with them because they were always working on 21 pilots. Like you couldn't be friends with, like stay they don't have time, they didn't have time to make friends with people outside of their already friend circle because they were working so hard on what they were doing, and so we wanted to embody that in a way to this character, um, that mythical figure. So that that's where kind of I was able to find the line of entertainment and reality. And I took reality moments, and then I was like, let's take those reality moments and then expound upon them, um, intertwine some people. Um, like even Sam is a is a combination of my friend Sam the drummer, but also uh my friend Liz, who, you know, is you know, girls in the music scene were totally different than the guys in the scene. Like there was some tomboy aspects to it, and they felt like one of the bros. Um, and so you know, I wanted to encapsulate some of that. So there was a lot of like marriages of people in my life that I put into these characters um that were allowed me to make it a fictionalized version, but also keep real moments. So, like to me, there's a lot of nostalgia and things that I remember, but to other people, they're gonna see it as these feel fresh and new.
SPEAKER_03How how much left do you have uh to film?
How Much Is Left To Shoot
SPEAKER_01Oh, we still got five chapters. We're we've only filmed part one. So we filmed like the first 20-ish minutes of the film. Like, well, sorry, we we we've actually filmed we filmed some of part three already, but uh we filmed some of it at the same time, but for continuity. Right. But yeah, we've we've probably got about it's it's probably about like the whole film's probably about a two hour movie um when it's gonna be when it's done. Um and uh but we've got the first like 25 ish. Yeah, it's a lot of work ahead. Um part. Three is probably because we've already filmed some of part three, part three is probably only gonna take us about four days of filming in May, which is great. Um, five minutes.
SPEAKER_03So how many days then would you say you have left of filming? Like what's scheduled?
SPEAKER_0120, 20 days of filming, probably.
SPEAKER_03Okay. And you're actually on weekends or a little bit?
SPEAKER_01Uh doing it over the course of the year. So we're we're every couple months, we're getting together for the next chapter, is kind of the way it works. Um, so like we're hoping part we're shooting part three in May, hoping to shoot part uh two, go back and shoot part two in July, um, and late summer, part four, uh, part five, around this uh in the fall. So how did you kind of just work it?
SPEAKER_03When it came to because you said you have some uh a number of people looking at it for uh distribution potentially. When when did those conversations start and how did they uh they originate?
SPEAKER_01Did it just start after you finished the script or once you had a little bit of film to be able to once we'd announced it once we've announced it, we've had a few people reach out to us with potential distribution.
SPEAKER_02Really?
SPEAKER_01Um and then we have we have some connections through um some of our uh producers and um a couple actors have gotten us connected with some people um who are interested based on the concept.
SPEAKER_03So that's neat, but yeah, I don't want to get too much into that. Um you can tell me you can tell me once I hit stuff. Yeah. Oh, I mean, that's that's great, man. Honestly, I'm I'm pretty jealous because well, I mean, I had we're excited. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I had my uh short film that I released from a
Final Thoughts And How To Support
SPEAKER_03feature that I couldn't finish, but it was you know, lessons learned. That's about all you can really do. But I I mean I made it when I was a lot younger, so you know, as as you get older, you get wiser. Uh and then well, that's that's a tricky thing about when you get older and you get a little bit wiser, is that sometimes the wisdom tells you not to go for it, and you have to remember that you gotta be a little bit reckless deliberately. That's the ironic thing, honestly.
SPEAKER_01I think that's what held me off from doing a feature for so long is that that um internal wisdom of like this is gonna be incredibly hard, it's gonna be really uh really difficult to pull off on like mixed to no budget, and um you know, so I think that's that's why I held off for so long. And then I was like, I gotta do this. If I'm gonna do like my my original goal was I wanted to do a feature before I turned 25, and then it became before 30, and now I'm 32. And I'm like, it's time to make a movie, it's time to make a feature film, not just do shorts. Um, I learned a lot of lessons from shorts, but time to make a feature.
SPEAKER_03My my friends keep telling me to go get my feet wet, but like am I I'm in the habit of just doing a lot of writing right now. And uh so it's just sometimes you have to sense what season you're in and when to when to break it out. And that's that's that's not always the easiest thing to do, you know. Where where do you think uh have you thought about where you're gonna go after you know end of another time gets released?
SPEAKER_01Oh no, I'm because I'm I'm one of those people that like it's hard for me to think about the next project until my project's actually done. Um so it was unusual for me to even participate in winter film this year because in the middle of another time, I've got um, you know, I'm like, do I really want to spend time and resources on making a short film? And Erica was like, I don't think you should. And I was like, Yeah, but I was like, I kind of need the creative break. And you took that personally. Yeah, I was like, well, and I I my whole point with it was I was like, I'm gonna if I'm gonna do winter film, I'm not gonna call in any favors. We're just gonna kind of make a thing, not try to go big, not try to go all out. Um, you know, we're gonna keep it small and intimate because like I can't cash in favors for a short film in the middle of a feature, you know, when I'm having to cash in every favor I've got for this feature. Um so uh we just got together with a few friends that wanted to be part of it and we made a short form comedy. And um, you know, I think I hopefully people like it. I think they'll they'll be surprised about it. I think they're not they're not gonna be expecting Brandy in this particular role. So um I think it'll be fun. But yeah, that said, so like I it was a nice creative break for me because it let me kind of play in a you know genre and it reminded me what what I love about making short films and making films in general. So um got me rejuvenated a little bit to go back into the rest of the end of another time.
SPEAKER_03That's great. That's kind of it is also ironic. You made another film to feel rejuvenated about making another film.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Well, and keep in mind, like End of another time has been a completely different process for me because it's so personal. Um, there's so many personal aspects of it that it is it's becomes emotionally exhausting at times. Um, so it was fun to make something that I had no emotional investment in, other than I just I wrote it and thought it was funny and thought it would be fun to make. Um, so it made it just made for a different type of experience, you know. Um so it rejuvenated me a little bit creatively and it made me rethink some uh even some processes that I'm uh getting into for some of the other parts of the film.
SPEAKER_03Well, Joe, it's been great catching up with you again. Yeah. Um and uh well it was I just I really just wanted to do an episode checking back in on other people who are actively doing things. You know, because there's there's creatives who they do one thing, then they go off and do a couple other things, and then you know, sometimes, you know, there's those types of artists, but then there's the artists that are uh that I wanted to check back on on that, you know, I've seen their their work behind the scenes and you know, you know, that I've talked to. So I thought it'd be it'd be fun. And you know, like I said, it's been great catching up with you. Do you have any final thoughts you want to leave with the audience?
SPEAKER_01No, um, first off, appreciate you inviting me back. I uh I think you said this is the first time you've had a guest return. Um this is technically my third interview with you. Uh yeah, yeah, I keep forgetting about that. We have the one that had all the sound issues, so we did another one. Um, we had the conversation that no one will ever hear, which is great, where I went on a rant about Sundance. Um yeah. So now they're not coming to Cincinnati, so we don't have to worry about it. Yeah, they're they're not. So yeah, I the rant was much, much worse uh about Sundance before the the second episode. I still ranted about Sundance. Um but yeah, so this is technically my third time on. So I I feel pretty popular, Anthony. I appreciate it. Um that's what I'm here for. No, I just appreciate if people want to follow end of another time. We're on social media, we're continuing to try to raise funds. Um, we did just sign a partnership, we haven't announced it publicly, but it is we are signed up with a nonprofit to make um all of our donations tax deductible. Um, so we'll be announcing that very soon. We signed a partnership with a uh prominent group. So um I'll be announcing that publicly, and uh Anthony will find out who it is right after he stops hitting record. But uh yeah, so uh and there's gonna be ways to continue to buy t-shirts and stuff like that. Um, we're shipping out stuff from the Indiegogo, which is great. Um Anthony's finally gonna get his shirt.
SPEAKER_03I forgot about that. I'm gonna get mine.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yep, I actually have it in my truck right now. I just haven't shipped it.
SPEAKER_03Fair enough.
SPEAKER_01Uh yeah, it's shipping all the stuff yourself is crazy. But yeah, so uh you're there's gonna be other ways to promote and uh or uh help fund this film, whether it's buying t-shirts or enamel pins and um help support local art like uh ours.
SPEAKER_03So sweet. Well, Joe, thanks again. Thank you.