Focal Point

Scoring Fear #69 w/ Composer Scott Genovese

• Anthony

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Creative careers rarely happen overnight. We sit down to talk with Scott Genovese about the years he spent teaching, performing, and quietly developing his skills before an unexpected opportunity led him to score the horror short Don't Break the Circle, and what happens when preparation finally meets opportunity. We also dive into the craft of horror music—using orchestration, silence, and collaboration to tell a story—and Scott shares practical advice for composers looking to break into indie film. 

Welcome To Focal Point Podcast

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the Focal Point Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Riggs. Here I take a deep dive into my personal interests of the hidden craftsmanship, philosophies, and passions behind society's talent. If you're intrigued by artistic nuance, please subscribe and follow on my YouTube channel, Spotify, and BuzzSprout. With that being said, let me introduce you to today's guests.

SPEAKER_00

I

Scott’s Path From Drums To Teaching

SPEAKER_00

remember the exact date because I have a picture of me sitting behind my drum kit for the first time, so that's how I remember. I have been a music teacher for almost a decade at this point, public school-wise. And with private teaching, I have been doing that for 14 years at this point. And in regards to uh composition, orchestration, just film scoring in general, I would say within the past couple of years, actually, I had been wanting to do it for a very long time, but due to certain commitments, um what I felt was the uh like a substantial amount of experience, I didn't feel like I really had it. I wasn't, I guess there was some feeling that I wasn't as capable or had the right tools in the toolbox, let's say, to really confidently do it. So I actually that part of me was on the shelf for a very long time until about three years ago. Was that the original thing that you wanted to do?

SPEAKER_02

Or was that something that came along after you know doing live musician uh work?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, film scoring, I always I as long as I can remember, I always wanted to do it once I was finished with my undergraduate in college. Because that's when I went for music education and got certified here in New York State. Um, but in regards to composition, film scoring included, I I I've always loved film. I've always loved film. I'm a film fanatic and I love music. So the marriage of those two is just I I I can't resist that. I love the two of them. So I said, why not? Uh I'll go into it and see where it goes just because I enjoy it. Just because I enjoy the two is what I mean.

SPEAKER_02

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00

So when I decided on my master's degree, where I was going, unfortunately, didn't offer a film scoring, didn't have a film scoring program. So the nearest thing I could do to that was a music theory and composition degree. Uh but in the orchestration courses, which was more of introduction, kind of getting you a little exposure to what it's like. Yeah, there were some exercises that did kind of make you use your imagination or put you in a film-like situation of what would you do? Like, for example, they would give you like a little strip of music, maybe a few measures long, and they say, All right, well, how would you adapt this to let's say a horror scene, or how would you adapt this to something that's very fantasy-based? So it kind of did touch it a bit, okay, but it wasn't strictly working off the picture, uh, working with cues and editing and all that. So none of that was actually there.

SPEAKER_02

I see.

SPEAKER_00

Um, yeah, so I always in the back of my mind said, what I really would like to explore more is film scoring, but I see I'm not getting it here, but I'm gonna take the tools that I'm learning here and just keep them in my back pocket, so to speak.

SPEAKER_02

How did you uh go from right out of college to the point where you were offering private lessons for drumming?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. All right.

SPEAKER_02

Like with musicians specifically, that like a lot of people find they're like it's it's difficult for them to make money off of their you know, their art, first and foremost, unless they're teaching. And some people, I've known people that try to go that route and it doesn't end up working for them. Why, why do you think it ended up working for you?

SPEAKER_00

Well, I well, I do both now, but at the time, at the time when I was just I'm just I'm trying to think back to exactly when. I had just started my master's, my master's degree in college. And my private, my private teacher at the time had just long retired and was moving down to Florida for health and personal reasons, and he passed on his entire private drum practice to me. So I was still in college at that point, so I wasn't even certified as a public school music teacher yet. So I was going, so I was in college working through all that program while giving private drum and percussion lessons, and then it wasn't until uh 2018 when I finally, after a few years of struggling to find a position, I got one in New York City. And so yes, oh yes, I live in New York City, yes, that's where I'm all right.

SPEAKER_02

I wasn't sure if it was New York State or New York New York City, but I mean the city, you know, New York City is kind of a better place to be, as far as I know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so New York City, I've been with the Department of Education here now for eight years. So I was hired in 2018, but between the years of like to let's say 2014 up to that point, I was filling in in different spots, you know, on a non-permanent basis, um, while in the midst of private teaching, while in the midst of performing and somewhat doing session work too. So luckily I was still at home, so I wasn't, you know, paying off a huge amount of a rent or anything like that. So I still had support while working what felt like 500 jobs at once.

SPEAKER_02

No, well, I mean, working multiple jobs as an artist is kind of a it's kind of a given at some point.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. But you know what? At that point, I was kind of doing it just to not pass the time, but to feel like I was sustaining until finally something permanent and more sustainable and lucrative came in. And obviously something more along the lines of what I really wanted to do with that consistency, which, like I was saying, came in 2018. So once I was hired, then I of course still continued to private teach. Um, but the but the thought of or just the thought of returning back to let's just like let's say composition and orchestration, right? Just for the sake of conversation, it was always in the back of my mind. I always loved it, but I didn't think of it keeping it at the forefront at that point because I had just been doing all of that, you know? So it was kind of, let's say it was kind of like a weird hiatus in some way. So

Putting Film Scoring Back On Track

SPEAKER_00

then fast forward to the beginning of Curiously, how old are you now? Oh, I'm 37 now. Okay, I'm 30. I actually just turned 37 earlier this month, funny enough. Spicy. So so now comes 2023, and I say to myself, something should happen this year. A very vague statement, but something should happen this year. So the first month or two passes by, and now, funny enough, because I I love projects, I love challenging myself. I had actually during my time of like around let's say 2007, 2000, oh sorry, 2017, 2018, was starting to put together what eventually became a snare drum book that I had put together and released and had it published and whatnot. So now that was on the back burner for a while too, because I had it all written out, handwritten manuscript, but I didn't have any connections or a means of getting it printed yet. So I still had all the work put into like a folder for a few years. But what does that have to do with what I'm about to connect? It has a connection. So that was kind of the spark where I now went out of my way because I didn't have also a means of like composition software either, right? I didn't have like a a doll point. Uh yeah, like I didn't I didn't have anything like that. And I still, honest to be honest with you, I really still don't. But I'm gonna get to how I got my work done. And it's actually pretty simple, but it was very effective in the long run. So now we're in early 2023, and I said, you know what? There's a part of me that wants to get back to it, but let's finish this drum book first. Let's actually get it on paper to have it look the way it's going to be read and released. So I finished all this material. I have it all printed out, I have it all, I'm sorry, I have it all written out, and I end up using a program. Um I how how familiar are you with composition uh programs or software or DAWs?

SPEAKER_02

Uh I I've ticked around with it a little bit. Um, but my well, my younger brother, uh he he does more sound design uh in that department. But my other brother uh has he's made rap music before, but he's also done a few things for me in the past when it comes to film composition. Uh and so I'm I'm moderately familiar with the process.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. So at this point, I'm saying to myself, I know about all these different software companies, composition companies, and they're, you know, you you you you really gotta run to the bank for some of these, right? Especially since you don't have that easy of access or whatnot to like hundreds of musicians that can just come in on a on a whim like that, which is honestly the situation I prefer. I would love rather I would rather be in a room recording with a real live orchestra, like like I like like I would see some of my favorite film composers working with to get that real authentic delivery and sound.

Solitude Versus Collaboration In Creativity

SPEAKER_02

Does creativity thrive more in uh collaboration or solitude?

SPEAKER_00

Both. It depends on the project too. I see. Um it depends because when it comes to like we were talking about earlier, working with bands, I'm happy with it. Uh, when it comes to scoring a film, I'm happy with it because obviously that could end up be just me, or I could have maybe an orchestrator or something, but it depends. It depends on what the project entails, it depends on their budget, that's always in consideration. So I am a person that can do solitude as well as collaboration, yes.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, all right. I'm I'm primarily a writer, at least up the past the past few years, so um the solitude aspect I I I could talk all about all day with because it's very it's like a when you're in a solitude uh mindset, uh it's it's a very meditative process. But there's other aspects when it comes to like collaboration where basically it's kind of like it's like shaking an eight ball, except everyone collectively is shaking the eight ball to see what comes out instead of you know you doodling on your whiteboard and try to you know have a conversation with your unconscious. Um but I uh curiously, I want to uh before you know get into the your band uh experiences and the uh short film that you scored, when you move to New York City, I've had other I've had friends that have moved in and out of New York City when they're you know trying to look and put themselves out there and use that type of uh environment to get bigger and better opportunities. Uh

Making Your Mark In New York

SPEAKER_02

did you feel like you were you moved you became a a small fish in a big pond and because it could be very sat that those sorts of markets could be very saturated. And so how did you go about uh individualizing yourself to stand out?

SPEAKER_00

That's a good question. Uh well, actually, just to backtrack real quick, I didn't move to New York City, I've been here my entire life. So I'm a New York women bred native.

SPEAKER_02

What uh what district are you from?

SPEAKER_00

Well, actually, another truth to be told is I was actually born in Long Island, so I still kind of feel like they're so close to one another that it is New York City in its own way.

SPEAKER_02

So uh well, are you because I know there's only one section of Long Island, and I just recently found about this that's technically part of New York City. So when people say they're from Long Island, uh it's my understanding generally they're talking about the rest of the island that's not part of New York City, because there's this little sliver that's you know in the the district of the borders of that city.

SPEAKER_00

Am I correct or am I? No, I know I know what you're saying because a lot of people have this conversation all the time when we make the joke of, oh, we might as well be in Queens. Oh, we might as well be in Long Island. So there's the blend um in Nassau County. That's probably the county you're talking about because Long Island is split in two. It's Nassau County, and then the big bulk of it going further out east is Nat is uh Suffolk County.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so you're probably referring to Nassau County, which is much closer, much closer to New York City and just the boroughs in general. Right. Um, but I'm not sure of the district name or number, but it's definitely what you're referring to, you what you're referring to has to be when Queens and Nassau County start to meld. Yeah. Gotcha. So I'm actually very close to that. Let's call it meeting point. Very close.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. All right. Now uh go back to the Oh no, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So so to the over sorry, so to the the little fish in a big pond part. Um well, yes, truth be told, being in New York City or just a place like this in general, it is oversaturated, of course. Uh, because everyone's seeking opportunity.

SPEAKER_02

There's so much, but yet it's so competitive because like how many songs have been written about going to New York City and making it big, you know?

SPEAKER_00

Uh we could again, like you, we could be all here all day talking about how it's like being in solitude and being meditative. That would take hours. A lot, a lot of songs. But no, but how you know, truth be told, because it is a really good question. I never really thought about that with how um I ended up standing out with something like

Reconnecting For A Horror Short Film

SPEAKER_00

that. I think the easiest way to answer that question, truth be told, is the the short film that I had scored that um were taught were what brought us here today. The short film uh was written by a director who lives in New Jersey. And being where I am, we're really not that far from each other. And another fun fact about this director, and this kind of ties into my band history, this director is also a vocalist of his own band in New Jersey. And many years ago, I was in a metal band and we were looking for vocalists at the time. And somehow your base knew him. So, so in a way, yes, to just a backtrack. I like I backtrack a lot, so sorry if I'm digressing a bit.

SPEAKER_02

It's not a podcast if you don't have a side tangent.

SPEAKER_00

No, yeah, yeah. So perfect, I'm home then. Um, so now we're talking well over like a decade ago at this point, like 2010. And our base has gotten in connection with him. He came in for a couple of months, but due to creative differences and just our scheduling at the time, it just didn't work out, but it was no animosity, nothing whatsoever. So then over the years, you know how social media works, you're like friends, and you like kind of see what each other are up to, and even if you don't talk to each other. So less than a year ago, I see that he's advertising that he's putting a short film together, and it's a horror short film nonetheless. So now at this point, I'm now two or three years and feeling more confident and returning, let's say, into this realm of music, right? This idiom, let's call it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so I reach out to him, and with no hesitation, he was so happy to hear from me and just wanted to meet up. We hadn't seen each other in well over a decade at this point. We talked about his film, he showed it to me. He was very, very open to working um in a very collaborative way over this. He was very happy to like hear what I would deliver or my perspective of it, where music should or should not be. So, to answer a question you had brought up previously, how do I feel about solo versus collaborative work? This one felt like it was both because he didn't give me a lot of parameters or restrictions, but he did, we were on the same page sonically, and what kind of score it was going to be. So there was the collaborative part, and we both agreed on like the same spots of where music was going to be, but he didn't say, Oh, you can't use these instruments or this orchestration or this or that. He gave a lot of creative freedom. And whenever I showed him um, let's say placeholders or little prototypes or cells, he was always very, very happy, which with any film composer, with that director relationship, that's like our that's like our dream. You're in a you feel like you're in a pool of freedom at that point. So it just it it was it was definitely a very nice reunion, and it was just a very nice way to jump into a project like this.

SPEAKER_02

What so your your guys' communic uh communication style was uh a lot more back and forth, it sounds like uh but he's also you said he was a vocalist, correct? Yeah, he has Okay, he still is. Yes. Um so he has some musical knowledge and does he play anything as well? Because there's some directors that, you know, when they have another skill set in a particular area that applies to a different department of a film, they can have a habit of being over specific when it comes to the technical jargon that actually ends up pigeonholing the uh the person that they're talking to in their particular aspect or of their craft. Yeah, so you did it doesn't sound like you had that type of experience though.

SPEAKER_00

With with him, just to answer your question, he is a vocalist. Um he's the vocalist of a punk rock band in New Jersey, uh, but he also does like off-Broadway productions and little musicals too. So his specialty in terms of music is uh singing.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um, but he always he's always been a horror fanatic, and he really wanted to delve into film production and directing to see where it would take him. And this project of his, what now is Don't Break the Circle, came to fruition. Um so that so to talk about like the jargon and the communication between us, I had referred to um specific composers or certain films, and even if he couldn't put it in a musical manner to me, he knew exactly where I was going with it, and he understood it completely, and he was more than happy to see where it would uh take both of us.

SPEAKER_02

The style of the score of that uh the short film, which the short film felt very much like a proof of concept. Am I am I correct in assuming that?

SPEAKER_00

Um you said a proof of concept?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, the the short film felt like uh the beginning of um almost the beginning of movie, but it was introducing the concepts of it. Uh was it a proof of concept that he was going for with that short film?

SPEAKER_00

You know, it's that also that is a good question. Um I think on a cliffhanger. You know, it's so funny we're saying that. Uh, because after we had like the um very like special secret premiere where it was just among the cast, and like maybe like some people were there, like a friend.

SPEAKER_02

You can just say it was a cult meeting, that's fine.

SPEAKER_00

It was a cult, yes. Just all that is dark and grim was all at this meeting, folks. It was a horror movie, exactly.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah, it was just an initiation ritual.

SPEAKER_00

No, it's so funny because some people were jokingly asking him this because then there was the QA session afterwards, and I was next to him during, so it was pretty funny to like witness this. There were a couple people going, there was that was great, but we sense a sequel. Do you have uh don't break the circle part two or something in the works? And he just goes, I don't really know. Maybe we'll see. Um, so that's information that I'm in limbo about too. Um but I but I think, but you know, at the same time, I think it also in a way ends it's weird because it is left on a cliffhanger, but in a way it's almost conclusive because it makes the the the the the audience wonder and and use their own imagination as to what really happens and just leave it at that.

SPEAKER_02

When

Building An Old School Orchestral Sound

SPEAKER_02

I was going through your uh your band material and you know a lot of your drums, because you've really you have on your Instagram page, you have a lot of like teeth little teaching tidbits and everything, specifically for drums. And then when I went and watched the short film, and you know, I was particularly paying attention to you know your role, the the composition of it, uh it felt very much like an old Hollywood score, you know, in terms of the more orchestral um use of the instruments, where I think nowadays when it comes to film composition, a lot of people uh and you know, I love Hans Zimmer, but I feel like people that try to go for that sound design style of music instead of you know actually letting the instruments be heard as you know organically as they are. Why why did you end up going that route when it came to uh you know the style of it?

SPEAKER_00

First, uh before I even answer, I just want to say thank you for saying that because I not Nothing can ever replace the presence and sound of a real live orchestra or ensemble of someone.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, I completely agree.

SPEAKER_00

There's nothing, no matter what technology you put in front of someone, no matter what program, just anything of the like, nothing replaces that sound, that that presence. So that's really why I went with that. Even though it ended up being a composition program that I was using, because again, low budget connections. I I those are the film scores that I gravitate more towards too. Nothing against, nothing against, because I'm very open-minded, but nothing against the more sound design approach or the overly produced version. Nothing like that. Because I love Han Zimmer too. Um, I love he's one of my personal favorites. But nothing I could put it to you like this film scores like the ones, like I'll you know what? I'll also I'll answer it this way. Some of my favorite film composers are people like John Williams, Danny Elfman, Alan Silvestri, Howard Shore, Hans Zimmer, of course. So I I I growing up, I was always watching shows and films, of course, that featured their music that had that sound. And I just love that sound. It's what was like instilled in me without realizing it was instilled in me in that musical idiom. Oh, did my camera just shut off?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it did.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, hold on. I don't know what just happened there. Hang on.

SPEAKER_02

But no, I I hear what you're saying. Um the uh probably my two favorite composers that I would place personally, just based on taste, above Hans Zimmer would be John Williams, like you said, and uh Rachmaninoff. I think he did film composition as well. I've listened to a lot of his pieces, but he didn't he he did a lot of older orchestral scores that you know, a few of them uh I forget the names of them, but they are they are classics, they're iconic. As soon as you hear it, you recognize it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, exactly. So Rachmanov, that's great because he did it much later in his life. Much later. Um but then you also get composers around that time like Max Steiner, who did King Kong and whatnot. Um, you also have Bernard Herman, who was like a that was revolutionary and whatnot, like you know, like during the ascent of the earth, the day the earth stood still, like a bunch of those films. But um I want I want to I want to keep answering your question about why did I true why did I approach this with an orchestral film scoring standpoint?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00

Because well, but because here's I I look at it this way the film itself reminds me of a film that still kind of has a quote unquote modern touch to it, but the scenery, the story, the overall cinematography, the look of it all reminds me of a film horror-wise that would have came out in the 70s or 80s, right? So a lot of those film scores at that point featured that type of approach from uh a musical standpoint. Um, you know, depending on the film, because it was kind of you you had you had both, but there are a lot of horror films that did have a real orchestra or a real live orchestra with choir even, and bring the score to life and help rep give the the film its voice in a way. So there was when I was watching it, and he just when he gave me just the the sheer 10 minutes of no music, I couldn't help but say this is that this is the score that I personally would want to be in this film. Not necessarily how it's gonna sound yet, but I would imagine it being with a real live ensemble. And he even made the uh point to have a female choir because the main character, uh sorry, not the main character, the main plot of the film is they're searching for this young daughter named daughter, uh, this young daughter named Rachel, who died and they don't know how and where she went. So the female choir is a representation of her and a wonder of mo mourning or loss or suspense and just being in the unknown. So that's that's why I went about it with symphony orchestra with female choir.

SPEAKER_02

What what what's uh after you know that that well actually no, you the link you sent me was unlisted.

SPEAKER_00

Is that currently going through festival circuits or yes, yes that I know a lot of people are asking me, like, how come I can't find the film? And because I tell them, like, I will send it to you, and that's the that's and I tell them this is the reason why, is because these, as you know, film festivals won't like they won't accept you if your film is public. They they need to be submitted to you. Yeah, yeah, no, but he knew our direct the director knew right away uh that it needs to be unlisted, uh, because once he's done with all of the film submissions and festivals that he's brought this film to, that once it's all set in stone, then it becomes public. So that's why, like for you, I sent it to you. I sent it to someone else who I may bring it up to, and that's really one of the only ways that people can watch it at this point in time.

SPEAKER_02

Curiously,

Choosing Silence And Sound Priorities

SPEAKER_02

when do you think silence is the best musical choice for a scene?

SPEAKER_00

Well, let's see. Um it could be more than one answer to that. That's again another good question. Um I feel when it is an ironic question, which is why I feel like it. I think I think that's a pro that that also I feel is a personal choice. Like, sometimes silence is deafening, and sometimes that that that and sometimes less is more. Sometimes you'll say, like, this is this makes it even more suspenseful when there's nothing. Because now the audience and even the characters on screen are wondering what is what is bound to happen in that moment or in those few seconds or what have you. So I think it's a matter of when something just I think something is completely still or something's frozen, or yeah, or or something's or something like feel like there's like this sense of creepiness or uncertainty. Um so that it can be it could be approached with either nothing or just a slight bit of maybe one note held out, or some sounds, just something. But in terms of silence, I think it's also good when um just even just sheer conversation between characters, like as you watch in the film when they're um sitting at the kitchen table, there's really nothing going on. So maybe when there's really just calmness or just like a certain conversation is happening that doesn't have a lot of substance behind it. Um and of course, obviously, when maybe there's another like sound source already taking up a lot of sound, and music would just it would overlap the music. Um, so like the scene when the mother starts playing music on the um record player, I said immediately there shouldn't be anything behind that because that's standing out right now. That is Rachel's favorite music that her mother put on. So it would be a little disruptive if I were to say, hey, I'm gonna just score this huge uh orchestration behind it. Uh so it would just it it it also it'll so it's also um necessary to say that it's best to leave it quiet when there's something else that's at the forefront.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. I think well, for me, because I grew up watching a lot of older classics uh as a kid, and so the the experience of hearing an orchestra that also tells the story as it's happening, because when how how that how put it this way a lot of older films they used they felt like you were watching literature, you know what I mean? And so when they would when they were going through like a montage or something like that, you know, and you're having a little bit of a time skip, uh the only thing that was really telling the story in those types of moments was the score. And you know, studios obviously they used to have in-house uh orchestras that they would use just for all of their productions and um in that way, but then once the uh the studios, I think it was in the 60s or 70s, like they uh their monopoly on the the theater system got broken up uh because of block booking and everything. Um that was when they kind of had to start outsourcing a lot of things in order to save on I don't remember, it was like margins or something like that. But I associate orchestras with how like half of the storytelling of it. And so when I go and I see uh a movie, if if the movie in every other category of the way it was made uh doesn't isn't peak in its own right and and and executed in that way, then I don't I barely get absorbed into it because that's just something that I I personally miss. And so when I I I watched the the film, it was it was honestly you know refreshing to to see that.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, thank you. That that really no, seriously, that really means a lot. Thank you so much. That that oh you're gonna make me cry.

SPEAKER_02

Challenge excel.

SPEAKER_00

But no, seriously, that's very thank you so much for that. And oof, that that was that was so nice to hear.

Recording On A Budget With MuseScore

SPEAKER_00

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

How did you go about recording that or composing it?

SPEAKER_00

Sorry, I'm just getting in my head about what you said because that was that was that was thank you for saying that seriously. Thank you again.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, of course.

SPEAKER_00

Um well actually to answer your question about recording, since this was a very and nothing when I say this, there's no downgrading or um hurting it or insulting it anyway, but it's a low-budget film. So we got to work with what you can, right? But you know what? Sometimes these low budget films, these indie films, sometimes are better than what comes out. But to answer your question, how did I go about recording this? Well, first, um when I was telling you that story about how I was writing this drum book and putting to a composition program, the audio in which it came with and that you can upgrade to was for free. And everyone likes free, right? The free is great. Yeah, so free is great. Free 99. For Americans, we love a good deal. Free 99. So when I was working with this, I was like, you know what? The sounds when you upgrade it to this for free, it's actually not bad. And sometimes it does the balancing. Um, and I'm not a mixing engineer by any means. So I'm not gonna say I produced or did this or that, but the production actually wasn't so bad because the program starts to register where you're going with it and it balances it out on its own.

SPEAKER_02

What program did you use?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. Um, admittedly, Muse Score. Muse score at the time it was like Muse Score 3, now it's like Muse Score 4.7 or something like that. Either way, a program called Muse Score. Um, and so by upgrading to what they offer sound wise, it it was very, it was very, I don't want to say passable, but it was definitely good enough to say, wow, this this sounds like you can tell that it's still a composition program, but still good enough to be like you were in a room with real musicians. So I worked with that for a very long time, including that book and ideas that I had started to compose out of practice and imagination, and then eventually over time led to this film. So I used the same program for the film, and I said to him, I said, I can't promise you a real live orchestra because obviously we're dealing with what we have here, including your budget, but we can work with this and with your mixing engineer or sound designer, what have you, and see if we can EQ or certain work with certain levels and whatnot to bring out certain parts and certain scenes more or certain instruments a bit more, tweak them a little bit. So that's really how we went about that. That was really how we went about that was they they they took my file, balanced it out through EQing, maybe a little bit of instrumentation here or there in terms of volume. And I was there for some of it. So we would have like meeting conferences like what we're doing today, like online, because they're they were all based in New Jersey and I'm here. And we would just listen to it, listen to it together, certain cues. Then I would put my two cents in to say, you know what, we can balance this out a little more. Um, I feel like the strings are overpowering too much here, or the brass is not as present, just little things like that, large but small choices like that.

SPEAKER_02

But impactful.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. Like, you know what? I think the dialogue is a little too low here. Maybe we can raise them up to match up to where the orchestra is here, or I feel that the orchestra should be more present here, but it's too low right now. The sound effects are so there was a lot of um peaceful negotiations that went into that mixing process. So, but it's so it was it was not a typical mixing production process for the film score itself.

SPEAKER_02

What were the other reactions that you got uh to your role and the work that you did in that film?

SPEAKER_00

Um, something that stands out about it is the style that they went with. Oh, before I answer that question, I don't know why my camera keeps doing that. Sorry, I will answer that because I want to be seen. I don't know why my camera keeps doing that. It's you know what? It's this I I my laptop runs on what's called poly camera. So sometimes it's like never heard of that. It's an app. They upgraded to it for me, and it just makes my camera better in some way. I don't know why it's doing that right now, so apologies for that. All good. Uh once I get my so I will answer that in one second. Hold on. Just don't know why it keeps doing that. Alright, maybe it'll come back. That's exactly what I'm about to do.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00

Like the classic uh computer. Just restart it or restart it.

SPEAKER_02

Just internet, just the internet issues.

SPEAKER_00

Just start over again. Hold on, I am trying. I don't know why. It did it before and it went back on, so I don't know what's going on now. Oh, here we go. Perfect.

SPEAKER_02

There and back again.

SPEAKER_00

There and back again. A Hobbit's Tale by Bill Bowen. Uh Lord of the Rings fanatic. Awesome. Uh so the I'm sorry, so your question was the like what kind of reactions I got, right? What was like the reception? Um, I can tell you that I was very modest about myself because I didn't want to get, you know, too in my head about the score and whatnot. I just said I'm just Oh, that's no fun.

SPEAKER_02

Just be vain. Just go for it. Be that guy.

SPEAKER_00

Serve the story, orchestrate it like some of your heroes would, but serve the story. Just go into it, make it blend. You want, and like you were saying before, it's the vo the film has to have another voice or a voice in some way. So that was what I was trying to do. I was trying to serve the product. So now the reactions that I've gotten are overall just to my surprise, like ecstatic. A lot of people were very proud of it. A lot of people were very, very receptive to it. Um, they said they haven't heard a score like that in terms of a real live orchestra with choir in quite some time. Um they they a lot of people have also mentioned how they feel that the score could stand out on its own as a tale in the midst of the film, which I thought was one of the most I did not expect that to be one of the highest compliments you can get as a composer. I was yeah, I I to now that I'm repeating that comment, I I still can't believe that that was even said to me. Um, so a lot of people very much enjoy it. They feel that it helps propel the story, they feel that certain cues were arranged, composed, or orchestrated just in a not, I don't want to say in the right way, because the right way is a matter of perspective, but it just gelled or suited it so well. Um, and that's what I was just hearing from others. Overall, it was just very well received, and it still continues to get well received. A lot of acquaintances, friends, family were all very proud. Um, and obviously the the team themselves were very happy with it, the director, of course. So I've got nothing but like very, very happy ecstatic reactions and perspective and uh opinions about it.

Feedback, Growth, And Trusting Intuition

SPEAKER_02

Now, in in in light of that, when you know once you saw the final product and you know everything was completed, what aspects do you think were were do you have any mistakes that you think you learned from that you want to try to work on in the next uh composite composition that you do? Or what what what did you learn from that process?

SPEAKER_00

I'm always looking for more, meaning progress. There's no end. Just like with my with drums and percussion and just practicing in general, I'm always searching for more because it's exciting and it keeps you humble, it keeps you youthful, and it keeps you excited. So the same thing goes for composition and orchestration and just film scoring in general. So I am always looking for more, and I always look back at ideas that I had just written just out of imagination and this film score and say, what did I do there that I will in the next film or project?

SPEAKER_02

So can you give me a technical example?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Um I'm thinking, let's say, let's say I'm looking at, you know, like my score is printed out, right? Like the final copy, but the film is out, right? It's done. Yeah, the product's done. I would say maybe I always because I'm always very, very um in um in depth or really focused on how my orchestration looked in let's say one section and another, and how did that the I I always look for balance too.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um so let's say I'm in a situation like um I'm just trying to bring myself back to when I was scoring the film. Trying to think of like a good example for you. Um maybe oh man, this is a good this is a good question. Um that's my job. No, no, no, no, no. You're doing a great job. Um but I you know it's a really hard question to answer because I'm thinking myself a visual aid, maybe? Yeah, because um, yeah, I'm very visual. I'm a very visual person and learner.

SPEAKER_02

Which is ironic because you're a composer when it's not visual.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no, but when you have but yeah, but like when you have something or you've listened to a lot of like you have a lot of inspiration, that kind of does stick to you like visual aids in a way, or uh visual stimulation. Um so working on it.

SPEAKER_02

You know, if it's a lot of people. Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

It's amazing how we put sound to picture. And that's why I love film and music separately and then together like this, which is why I got back into it. Just that marriage. But I'm I am really trying to answer that question because I feel like even with my practice as a musician, um, I'm oh I feel like I've just begun, you know, after all, even after all these years. So I treat film scoring the same way where I feel like I've only trust begun. But it's hard to pinpoint because again, my my mind thinks of this reply all the time. It depends. That phrase, it depends. So maybe I say, um, you know what? I I I maybe the string section here could have been orchestrated a little more broadly, or maybe I could have thickened it up a little bit more, so to speak. Or yeah, or maybe like, you know what, maybe I could have used less brass there. Maybe I was trying to think about strength by numbers in some way here. Or but you know what? Once it's said and done, I say to myself, even though if I'm I'm thinking back to what I could have done and be critical about it, I did that for a reason. And that person there was saying that that's what I felt was necessary in that.

SPEAKER_02

You have to trust your intuition, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

So I just said, you know what? Trust your gut, trust your gut instinct, trust your intuition, and just leave it because it's present, it feels it feels like it's doing justice here. Let's keep going. Um, so I'm always looking for um you know, you know, to also answer your question further is I love like reading film score books. So like I'll have like an entire film score from a film and say, like, what did so and so do here? You know what? I didn't do this in this film or in this idea. What did they let so and so do in their section, in the Woodwind section here, let's say, or what did they do with their brass here? Did they really spread it out further, or were they more like together or two T here? So it really, it really, it could really, that question could be answered in more than one way. But hopefully I did answer it.

SPEAKER_02

Between

Music Theory As A Problem Solver

SPEAKER_02

being dogmatic about music theory and completely flying by the cedar pants, where would you say that you fall on that spectrum?

SPEAKER_00

Both. Seriously, both. Um, but because you know what? Music theory is there all the time. Music theory doesn't just mean harmony and counterpoint. Music theory also refers to melodic contour or melodic choices, or even just down to a rhythmic decision or phrasing or pulse and whatnot. So music theory is there all the time. Um, so I fall into both because I'll find myself working with a chord progression that I already know I can write it out. It's it's there, right? And then sometimes I'll stumble upon something and go, I'm not really sure what to do here. I really, I'm not really sure because I can go the more than one way here. And sometimes I go with my gut instinct and maybe end up hearing something randomly, even if it's just um uh a note in a melody. Or, you know what? How about this chord? How about we go here? And then I go, does it serve the picture? Does it serve the idea? All right, so uh that's that's good. Not good enough, but it's good. I feel great about that. Let's keep going. So it's both. It really is both. Sometimes it's very it's it because uh true because another thing about me with film scoring is I really don't have, truth be told, a very methodical way of going about it. I go a I do go a lot by what I've uh read or what I'm or what I've tried to emulate, what I feel is like taking a uh paintbrush as a painter and going over a blank canvas just to see what comes out of it. And then once I take that stroke, do I want all those colors there? Do I want that line there? Yes. Or it could be let's tweak that color there, or that's that tiny bit of that stroke there. Is that what I was originally hearing? Whatever the situation may be.

SPEAKER_02

Other composers have told me that uh uh looking at the sc the score of the piece that they're working on from uh an analytical uh side of you know using music theory is really there to just kind of get them out of a bind or to problem solve. Does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00

Yes. It it it I but I don't rely here, you know what? I'll answer it this way. I think what we're getting at here is people rely on music theory, but then they get too caught up in what are considered rules, right? Because we're not rules come when it comes to music theory and its history, rules came about through certain time periods for certain purposes, for reasons why music was composed a certain way to serve what the situation through the different eras that have come and gone. Exactly. So if we were talking about, let's say, the classical period, obviously that was discipline and rules because they were meant for royalty or for a certain person and certain rules to help the music be more smooth and so that audiences can enjoy it, and what technology they had available at the time to be able to do what they could do. Exactly, exactly. So they didn't think beyond that yet because it was unheard of figuratively and literally. So now we're at a point now where film comes in and now we have all these different musical choices, all these different blankets of sound we can go with. And what do we feel harmonically or melodically suits that? Do we want heavy dissonance? Do we want nothing but consonance? Do we want a major tonality? Do we want it to be fully avant-garde and just a cacophony of sound? Do we want atonality? Do we want tonality? Do we want a chord progression that mixes minor and so you see what I'm see what I'm saying? It could be a lot of different answers and reasons. So when it comes to using music theory to get yourself out of a bind, that's why I find it important to have a toolbox. I find it important. What is the genre we're working with? What is the project you're working with here? Because when you're working with a horror film, obviously you're not going to write the same film score you would write for, let's say, Toy Story.

SPEAKER_01

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00

Because that's that's a mixture of very satisfying major tonality choices and and whatnot. A horror film is nothing but minor, diminished, sometimes augmented, sometimes atonal and dissonant beyond belief. Sometimes it's just random sounds, just with random objects and and and and what you perceive as non-musical instruments. So it it so that's why I think music theory and just going with your gut, they really do go hand in hand depending on the project.

Questions That Unlock A Director’s Vision

SPEAKER_02

When as a composer, when you're working with a a director who's not musically inclined and doesn't have that uh technical jargon lingo to be able to communicate with you in that way, uh, what are some good questions that a composer can ask the director to be able to understand the way they see their vision?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Um I would ask questions of if you could give me a film or a list of films that you enjoy that you feel this film compares to, what would that film or those films be? And then once they and then once they do that, then I'm getting a better idea or I'm gauging where they're where they're headed.

unknown

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

I'm aiming for, oh, they want this type of film score. Or they actually might have music placed already, which is where the famous scenario of temp tracks or scores come in. And then that gives me an idea, even though it's kind of like parameters in a way, it's not because now you sonically can go into your toolbox. I use the word toolbox a lot, uh, and say, ah, they want this type. They want, and then you that's when you can start working with the musical choices that you've had instilled into you from just sheer listening or studying or reading or or learning from others. So that's that's where I go about it. And then, yeah, that that's that's that's really how I first approach um getting an idea of where the director is heading when they can't put it into words.

SPEAKER_02

Which which which is harder? The beginning where you have a blank canvas, or when you're near you can tell that you're nearing the end and you're having trouble uh releasing it and letting it go, because obviously, you know, art it's never finished, it's just abandoned.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you know, I I always look at that, even like at that film score, I go, oh, you know what? I could have, you know what, that could have used, but I said, once I sent it in, as they say, it just it felt right. It felt right enough. Not like, oh, it's good enough being passive, just brush it off. No, nothing like that. Once I got to the last note and it ended a certain way, and I had not kept going back to the same spot, let's say, like revisited, let's say, the middle of the film. If I had not done that, that meant what was done was done. If it it was it was good and did justice, and I wasn't thinking about it anymore at that point. Um so again, hopefully that answered the question. I honestly just lost my train of thought, but um no, no, because because I I you know, as you just said it, a artist's work is truly never done. Um it is, but there but there is a point where you when if you start doing too much, then you do fall into the trap of overdoing. You fall into the trap of uh using too many colors, so to speak. Um you you you you you end up being a little too critical, and then suddenly the film doesn't sound the way you want it to when you start overdoing your choices or or making more choices. Um so yeah, yeah, no, that's that's the best way I can answer that question.

SPEAKER_02

How did you learn to trust your gut and your intuition when it came to generating a piece?

SPEAKER_00

Not getting in my head as much as I used to. That's definitely the first place I got.

SPEAKER_02

Um because artists are always very neurotic and self-criticizing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I I I deep down I can be a very neurotic person, but I've learned to really balance the focus and the determination with that. Um because you know, I also say, and this kind of ties to another question you asked earlier about um uh what what um I'm trying to actually remember, you um sorry, I'm drawing a blank.

SPEAKER_02

Um You're not neurotic at all.

SPEAKER_00

No, I'm not. No, no, I'm sorry. I'm thinking about two different things at once. It happens. Oh, yeah. Um, I'm sorry. So you know I'm sorry, repeat the question one more time. I'll get my thoughts straight again.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, what was the question? Oh, how did you learn to uh to trust your gut and your intuition as an artist?

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay, yes, that's I'm sorry. It's because also the student, it's also deep down, I'm a very perpetual learner. And I said to myself, okay, you know what? I did everything here. I know in the next project I'm gonna learn and do something differently this time around. Um so I don't get too caught up in one project because then you're you're you're you're you're you're stuck to it, you're too stuck to it. It's like you glued yourself to that, like that's the be-all end all, what it's not. Because as we've both said, music is endless, so the amount of projects you do may end up being endless. And so what you had done previously, you can think about it as you're transitioning to the next project.

SPEAKER_02

When oh goodness. I think you're starting to rib off on me. Now I drew a blank.

SPEAKER_00

I know, and I also talk a lot too. But I tell, but you know, when you're passionate about it and we're both artists, you know, you get so you get so caught up in your thoughts and like the coloring aspect of it all, figuratively and literally.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well especially when like for example, when when I'm writing, and you know, obviously all of writing when it comes to like you know screenwriting specifically, it's just you do more fighting with writer's block than you do actually actually writing. And it takes the discipline of just really just setting down and hammering it out with no distractions and just confronting that block. And you basically are just hitting your head against a wall until either you have inspiration to go around the wall or you just brute force it and you bang a hole uh uh through the wall.

SPEAKER_00

Or do you just stop and just walk away for a bit and then come back five minutes later?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Well, that's the temptation though, as an artist, is to wait for inspiration instead of to actually just brute force it and and work on it. Because I think a lot of artists they they rely a little bit too much on inspiration and not work on the discipline of just uncomfortably facing the problem when you're either tired or you're just mentally not there. Uh how how have you learned to go about your particular craft in that way? Oh,

Beating Creative Blocks With Better Questions

SPEAKER_02

like where's the balance for you in that?

SPEAKER_00

Like, like if you're stuck on, let's say, a chord choice, right? Like um let's say, let's say I'm working with, I don't know, an entire like it like the the the film cue is heavily orchestrated, right? Like everyone's pretty much running the same pathway, it's very intense. But all of a sudden I I I I'm hearing it, but then I get to a blockade. I get to a moment where I felt I hit a wall. Like, let's say with a chord choice, right? Now, do I want it to be this quality? Do I want it to be that? So here's what happens. I don't get caught on that specific choice. I start to think about what did I let like you know what? Let's let's let me put it to you this way. Let's say I'm in a spot where I have three chords lined up, right? And the orchestra is at this point, they're or they're oh there goes my screen again. It doesn't want me to answer this question, folks.

unknown

Hold on.

SPEAKER_02

It's like it feels like it's on a timer almost.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think it might be. So if you're totally fine with that, I can answer it if I'm blank.

SPEAKER_02

Um, yeah, it's fine. You can answer as you work on.

SPEAKER_00

So so here's how I can answer that. I I I get out of that writer's block. Let's say we're in a scenario where it's now it is fully orchestrated, but there's this one chord I am so stuck on, right? And the orchestra, all of them are surrounded by this one chord that's coming up. Now I say to myself, okay, maybe it's not the chord choice that could be the problem. It could be maybe the one prior to it or the one that came after it, right? Let's say I've I have like the before and after on this choice. Maybe it's what I've done after or before it that could that could possibly help segue better into that. I'm back, into that choice, and that's helped me move forward. I suddenly make a different core choice prior to the one I was stuck on that was in limbo, and all of a sudden it became something different, but still good enough to put a smile on my face and trust my gut instinct to make progress and move forward.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, when I'm when I'm stuck and I'm I'm writing, no what I've noticed in my experience is that when I'm stuck and I'm trying to find the answer to something and I can't find that answer, it's not that I don't have the right answer, it's because I asked the wrong question and I set myself up incorrectly.

SPEAKER_00

And right, but no, and also to answer your question, it could maybe no no no, you know what to add to what I just said? Maybe it was you're right. You maybe it wasn't a harmonic choice, maybe it was a melodic choice, maybe it's maybe it could have been like a a rhythmic pulse choice. Something else, something else in your subconscious that you weren't aware of that wasn't in the forefront, could have been actually the real underlying obstacle that's come uh forth. So it it's amazing how that works sometimes. It true, it truly is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, you're just fighting against darkness that uh uh in and the void of exactly the limbo. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting New Cues And Building A Reel

SPEAKER_02

What what's the first thing you decide to uh set yourself up with when it comes to making a new piece? Is it the time signature? Is it this particular chord progression that you want to base that off and work around? Where where where's your starting point?

SPEAKER_00

Sure. Um let me can I can I answer that with a question first? Does that are you asking if it's for a film project or if it's something that because I'm I'm forgetting if I had also sent you ideas that were film score ideas that were unused that were just created out of practice?

SPEAKER_02

I don't think you sent me that, so go ahead and go that route.

SPEAKER_00

Okay. So so you know what? I can answer that in both ways. I actually, if you don't mind, I can actually answer that in more than with more than one answer.

SPEAKER_02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00

Um just to backtrack, I also have um I have a lot of these film score, cinematic ideas, whatever you want to call them, in a folder that's called unused, because I wanted to write them for fun and sheer enjoyment, but also out of practice and to build a portfolio to this to to share with others, right? To kind of showcase that I want to and like to and would like to be a part of your project, just to prove that I'm not just speaking, right? Like I'm not just using words like here's proof.

SPEAKER_02

Right, because there are fanky people that you know they they enter the workspace and they're trying to uh sell themselves, but they they don't quite have something necessarily to show. Like they're doing more selling of themselves than they are of their work, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00

No, absolutely, because they're saying, Do you have a reel? Do you have a portfolio? Because if you don't, then we're we're not talking to you. So you have to have some. So I said I took it upon myself to write ideas, whether they were used for film or whatever or whatnot, and just say, here's something that could fit in a scene. Here's something that just came out of sheer practice and imagination. Here's something that I said, you know what? I love this part of the film score so much, this cue, that I want to write something similar to it and emulate it in a way. Not verbatim, because then that's copyright, but that's that's besides the point here. But I would build the portfolio and showcase different scenarios or different idioms, different styles and whatnot. Oh, this could fit in a circus scene. Oh, this could fit in a comedy film. Oh, this could be horror, this could be for fantasy. So now I'm sorry, I'm I'm drawing a blank on the question now that I did that. Here I go. I'm going on a tangent. The question was, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02

Uh the question was, oh shoot. It was um crap.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I did it. I did it to you.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, it was um how do how do you decide where to start when it comes to a piece? Like what's the first decision that you can do.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, okay. So I said, you know what? It's it's it's kind of dare I say it. It's simple, really. So a lot of these ideas that I have that I was just describing to you are unused. Let's let's let's let's talk about those for a minute because I could definitely share them with you at a later point. Um I say, you know what? I want to write an epic cinematic idea. Epic could be, you know, something high energy, hopeful, uh powerful, epic, very broad term. So then I refer to ideas, musical ideas or scores that I love so much, and I base off of that, right? Like whether it be a melodic, uh, um a long melody that I'm hearing that could be considered epic. And then there's the main sketch, and then the orchestration, the musical choices start to come in like a flood. Um I want to write, you know, I want to write a dark carnival or evil goon circus-like idea. Who are my inspirations of that? So then I would go and think about certain scenes or cues or people and what kind of choices they made, and then I would make those choices based on that title alone, and I wouldn't deviate it. So, in a way, it's kind of like I'm telling a story without the visuals because I had made a topic choice, which then the music reflects that topic or title. Um, what so now let's say now, like a film like Don't Break the Circle, the horror film, it's a horror film. Right. So, of course, you're going to serve the product and make what would be considered horror music choices.

SPEAKER_02

Gotcha.

Final Advice For New Composers

SPEAKER_02

Well, Scott, I want to it's I appreciate you coming on. It's it's been great talking to you. And I I this is the first time I've talked to a New Yorker specifically. I've talked to like you know a lot of other people, but um a lot of local people, but I've been uh I I appreciate you coming on. Uh is there any final thoughts that you want to give to the audience or advice to composers that are getting started?

SPEAKER_00

Uh well, first off, Anthony, I want to say thank you. I want to thank you for having me and for just and yeah, thank you for the invitation. I I of course I truly am honored to be here, especially being the first New Yorker you're ever interviewed. That's a kind of honor. I take that with pride. Um I will say um my last um notes to leave on today is always have fun with what you do and trust your instincts. And I know this all probably sounds cliche, but they're cliche for a reason. Keep moving forward. Don't if you make a mistake, there's always room to try again. You're you have to remember that even when you feel masterful or you feel like you're in a rut, there's always an answer. There's always more, there's never a true end. But don't take that as pressure or stress, take that as excitement that there's more ahead of you, and there's more that will that will make you want more after that. Um, and advice to other composers and orchestrators out there, just like I said, have fun, keep an open mind, keep learning, um, steal from the greats. Don't be afraid to do that. Uh, just make sure you don't do it verbatim, because then we have a copyright uh situation. Of course.

SPEAKER_02

Just kidding.

SPEAKER_00

Just kidding. Um uh I had to throw a bad joke in there, but anyway, um just just and also just stay true to yourselves. Don't ever forget about that. Stay true to yourselves. I'm a person of cliches, and I know I said a lot that's very cliche, and of course, but it's the truth. It's all cliche for a reason.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I mean, cliche advice, it's there for a reason.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And uh I'm I'm I I I I always I love my fair share of cliches, and I stick to them, and hopefully a lot of you stick to them too.

SPEAKER_02

Scott, thanks again.

SPEAKER_00

Of course, it's my pleasure, and keep in touch, and all the best to you. Thank you so much for having me once again.