The Science Behind White Cast and Sunscreen Inclusivity with AJ Addae

In this episode of Skin Anarchy, award-winning cosmetic chemist and clinical researcher AJ Addae joins Dr. Ekta Yadav for a science-driven conversation that challenges one of skincare’s biggest blind spots: why sunscreen still fails so many consumers—especially those with deeper skin tones. What unfolds is a deeper look at formulation chemistry, particle optics, and the gap between sunscreen marketing and how these products actually perform on real skin. 

AJ shares how her own experiences growing up as a dark-skinned daughter of immigrants shaped her relationship with beauty and science. Long before becoming a cosmetic chemist, she was already questioning why products weren’t designed with melanin-rich skin in mind. That curiosity eventually led her into formulation science, where she began investigating the physical behavior of mineral UV filters like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. 

A central focus of the episode is the science behind white cast. Rather than treating inclusivity as a marketing issue, AJ explains how particle aggregation, light scattering, and suspension stability directly influence how sunscreen appears on the skin. Her research into specialized zinc oxide “tetrapod” structures reveals how changing particle shape—not just adding tint—may significantly improve wearability across skin tones while maintaining UV protection. 

The conversation also dives into the limitations of SPF testing, the misunderstanding of hyperpigmentation, and why aggressive skincare often worsens long-term skin health instead of improving it. Throughout the episode, AJ advocates for a more rigorous, transparent, and evidence-driven future for cosmetic chemistry. 

Listen to the full episode to hear AJ Addae break down the science of sunscreen, inclusivity, and why meaningful beauty innovation starts in the lab—not in marketing.

Learn more about Sula Labs and AJ Addae

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Transcript

Why Sunscreen Still Isn’t Inclusive

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is a very, very special episode. We are going to be learning a lot today, and especially in the realm of sunscreen and understanding why things are not inclusive in the sunscreen space and how do we make them inclusive? So our guest today is a true expert in this field. She is an innovator, she is a trailblazer, and I am so honored to host her. So please welcome uh AJ Aday, who is an award-winning cosmetic chemist and clinical researcher and now soon to be Dr. Aday. So welcome, AJ. Oh my goodness, thank you for that introduction. Like I'm flattered. Oh no, it doesn't do you justice, please. I I was like really brief with that, you know, but I could I could rave about you for hours. I mean, you're so impressive. I want you to tell your story because I don't want to miss anything. I want you to tell us about what got you into science. Like, I honestly, I really want to know like where did you realize when did you realize in your life I want to do chemistry, I want to go into science, walk us on memory late.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Okay, so I'm glad that your question is what got you into science and not necessarily what got you into beauty, because I I've worked in cosmetic science labs where there's men, right? No one ever asked them like what got you into beauty, right? Like they see them as scientists. And that and that's kind of the the lens that I think I approach this from. Love beauty, though. I think I've always had ever since I was little, like kind of a love-hate relationship with beauty where I liked the idea of you know cosmetics and everything like that. But I think it came from a perspective of I'm a darker skinned woman. I have very like kinky coily hair. You know, there are these things that you grow up with as a dark-skinned, you know, first generation immigrant child that just you don't feel like you're tapped in sometimes. And beauty is one, I think, area where a lot of us kind of feel like we aren't immediately included or tapped in. So that's where my love-hate relationship started. Even like honestly, to a point where when I was 11, I was writing articles on back when WikiHow was was a little early. I was writing articles on WikiHow about like how to make a you know lip balm that complements to uh duotoned lips and stuff like that. And those were gunds of thousands of views. They had no idea that an 11-year-old was writing those. So I think where the story really begins is, you know, we were just talking about our backgrounds. You're saying that you grew up with your dad as a professor. My dad was also a professor, it and still is. Yeah, he's I mean, like to be honest, like dad, if you're listening, you already know this. So I'm gonna say it anyways. Like, I feel like I don't quite understand what it feels my dad said. But you know, it was cool. I enjoyed, I grew up close to the academy. And one expectation that my parents had for me was you're gonna go to school and you're gonna be an MD, you're gonna be a doctor. And that was just so not

AJ’s Route Into Cosmetic Science

SPEAKER_01 2:40

my vibe, and it still is not my vibe. You know, no, no offense to doctors, like y'all are great, but I feel like it's just not my calling. That just wasn't where I felt called. And I'm the type of person where my heart has to be in it for me to show up every day. You know, I went, I still went to college, I got a biology major. I honestly didn't like most of it, but I went to Northeastern University and like they have this thing called a co-op program where you have to take six months off at a time, at you know, once or twice in your whole time there, free to go work a full-time job. And I was panicking because everyone around me was doing research and all these things. Meanwhile, I was more artistic. I was a writer, I wanted to be an English major, and I had actually written at the time in college an article called Why the Beauty Industry Has Failed Darker Women. And I didn't think anything was gonna come of it, but when it came time to do my co-op, I ended up thinking like, what is a way for me to merge my biology major and like my artistic endeavors and just things that I'm interested in and care about. And this was like at the height, or maybe the height of like Glossier. So that was like what was really popping at the time. And I was like, beauty is actually a really great place to be doing that. So I took a stab at it. I ended up doing my co-op at a skincare company. They've since been acquired, and it was really cool seeing the RD in the background and everything like that. Living Proof, by the way, if you are listening, I did apply to a co-op at your company and I got rejected, and I'm still salty about that to this day.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Why would you get rejected?

SPEAKER_01 4:04

Why would y'all reject? No, I'm just we we love Living Proof. I'm calling you out too. What? Yeah, we love Living Proof. But so really what ended up happening there is I fell in love with the RD behind beauty, and then I wanted to immerse myself in it fully. I started working at Credo, like picking up shifts there. I started learning about products, CPG, I started learning about startups and just kind of the rush that you get from running so lean and scrappy and like still having a lot of success and reach. You know, we did a lot of partnerships at the brand that I was working with, where I got to learn brands like, you know, all the indie beauty companies that were really rising at this time, like the late 2010s. And then after I graduated from college, actually a little bit early, I started working at a medical grade, you know, whatever that means, uh skincare company and their partner contract manufacturer, where I was making things like sunscreens, like emulsions, you know, all types of formulator things. And before that, I was actually doing academic research at Northeastern, you know, formulating sunscreens as well. So formulation just kind of became the thing that I thought I was pretty good at. I liked being able to put things together, understand the impact that it had on skincare and hair care. But ultimately I kind of hit a wall where one of my biggest projects that I was working on was a sunscreen when I was working at the manufacturer and the medical grade skincare company. And it was a sunscreen that was meant to not have a white cast and still include zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. Now, as we know, that is very hard. And I was pretty immersed at this point. Like I was doing, I was running clinical research, I was writing papers with the company. Like I was really into the research world. And every single paper that I came across was like, this is hard. Every single supplier that I came across, this is hard. And what kind of made it difficult for me as well was when it came time to approve formulations, people would spread it on their skin and they were Fitzpatrick one and two, I'm a Fitzpatrick Six, and things would be getting approved because they're like, see, no white cast. And I'm like, no, no, no, we got to take that to the bench. Well, it matches your skin tone. What do you think? Right, exactly. So what ultimately really helped at the time was using a dispersion from a supplier that what they did was they, like, you know, it's interesting, they improved the size of zinc oxide and titanium dioxide in such a way where it reflected light advantageously to a point where you saw less of a white cast. You didn't see like no white cast, but was really playing around with the optics of the material. And that really stuck with me because it's the formulation as much as it is the actual optical properties of the zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, iron oxides, maybe even if you're using them in the formula. So, you know, I didn't really like the idea that a lot of things that were being passed, approved in formulations weren't really that inclusive. I could tell that the whole tested on all skin tones thing wasn't really that pursued, even in a medical grade setting, even in and I'm talking, I was working with people that really knew what they were doing, but to me, I just felt so unreal. Like it just didn't really feel like it aligned with the calling that I had, considering I'd written that article like about beauty industry failing darker skinned women. So I had left the company and I actually came across a research grant serendipitously where it's like pick a project that Mary STEM and social justice will fund it a little bit. So they funded like $5,000. That was enough for me to, you know, secure a small space and some materials and some hot plates and things like that. And I didn't really mean to start a business. You know, someone was asking me, hey, you work in this field, could you make me a formula? And that turned into a client, and then one client turned into two, and then two turned into 10. And now Sula Labs is the company that started in 2021. And here we are almost five years later.

SPEAKER_00 7:44

That's incredible. And you know what's like, I think for me, what stood out so just obviously with your your story. When I first learned about I was selling it on social media, I found a reel that was discussing your work and like your contributions to the space. And what stood out to me was like this is a perfect example of how science first and it leads to so much untapped innovation in a space like beauty. You know what I mean? Like you're absolutely right when you say it's not about the beauty, it's about where do we innovate in science to where it's translatable. And that's something I feel like we're missing, we miss the mark there, you know?

SPEAKER_01 8:19

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

You know, and I see this a lot right now. I don't know if you agree in regenerative medicine. Take regenerative medicine as an example. I love regenerative medicine, I've been doing wound healing research for decades at this point. Oh, yeah. Now I'm looking at the space and I'm like, guys, this is not skincare. This is this comes from serious burn victim injury related, you know, like research. We just do that in this industry. And there's nothing wrong with learning, but it's like we still have to acknowledge like science first. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

And similar to you, like along the way, I realized that if I wanted to contribute to this industry the way that I know I can, like to my fullest potential, as well as my company contributing to its fullest potential. I was like, why not get a PhD in chemistry? So yeah, I've been doing that for the last four years. I'm actually graduating early because I just kind of have to do that. And I'm I'm grateful to have made the progress that I've made. And actually, a majority of my dissertation is everything sunscreens, formulations, white casts, interaction with the skin microbiome, you know, film forming, even challenging the theory of how we calculate sun protection factor and UVA protection factor. Like it's very much I'd be in the lab, guys. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:25

That's so freaking cool. I love you because I honestly, you know, AJ, I'll tell you what, sunscreen. I mean, obviously it's a major problem for like what you mentioned, like the Fitzpatrick's, like the numbers that are later on, but for everybody, there's no reason at this point that we haven't figured this out. Like, there's no reason why we should be stuck. And I feel like you're a perfect example of a young innovator that I'm like, why are we not pouring like you said five thousand dollars? Why did a company not step up and be like, AJ, take this five million dollar grant and run with it and go figure this out? You know what I mean? And we will fund you, we will pay you. Well, you you do what you know you can do. I mean, that this is where I get stuck. Very early in this podcast, I brought this up, and I feel like you're you're gonna understand where I'm coming from. I literally was interviewing like a major executive, and I said, Why is there not a grant type of setup in the beauty industry that is funding emerging scientists that can actually innovate? Like MH does this, everybody's doing it. We have billions of dollars floating around in this industry and nobody wants to do it.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

I think a part of it is really that and this isn't the case in every single industry, but beauty is very much dominated by market. Like everybody wants their share, their exclusivity, and this and that. And so when there is actually really great emerging research, take Celescence as example, um, which, if you all aren't aware of Celescence, they are a contract manufacturer that really focuses on sunscreens and making cosmetically elegant solutions. But you know, they own everything that they've made, which is great, right? Like they started with uh a chief scientific officer and he does really great work. I also sometimes wonder what it would look like if we ran as fast as a company like Celescence does and made a lot of that research open access and publishing a lot more and a lot more rigorously than the beauty industry is used to, and really just improving the rigor of you know a lot of the fundamental science that governs how we, you know, substantiate claims and governs how we formulate, how we do things like stability testing, right? There's no major consensus on a lot of things. Beauty is unregulated in many ways, but I do definitely see a push towards aligning more with you know, paint and coating industry and their academic rigor and nutrition, even though nutrition is a whole that's a whole different episode, guys. But yeah. So companies like Sula Labs are part of the reason why.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

That's right. No, I want to actually dive into this because

When “No White Cast” Gets Approved

SPEAKER_00 11:50

you had mentioned, like in the beginning, like the optics matter, you know, when it comes to these, like these molecules, understanding how they perform. And I would love for you to do a deep dive and understand like what is it that you observed in the lab that you were like, this is how we need to shift our thinking.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

So basically, sunscreens made with zinc oxide and titanium dioxide for some reason are are preferred by consumers generally. I don't completely know why, considering the fact that they leave a white cast, but I think a lot of it really has to do with people's safety concerns and how they interpret how organic filters, so things like avabenzone, autisylate, homosylate, how those might possibly be less advantageous in maintaining sensitive skin claims and you know taking care of sensitive skin. We see an overwhelming preference towards zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. The difference, I guess, between zinc oxide, titanium dioxide, and organic filters, so what people refer to as chemical filters, uh, but they're both chemical. So I refer to I refuse to refer to things as chemical filters. I'm glad you said that. The real difference is that zinc oxide and titanium dioxide are minerals, right? They're metal oxides. They are particles that don't naturally dissolve in emulsion system. So they're really suspended, kind of like how glitter can suspend in a makeup. It's it's really just a suspension at the end of the day. The thing about zinc oxide and titanium dioxide, though, is that when they are in powder form, they like to form aggregates. And those aggregates form agglomerates. You ever see like a sunscreen where there's settling at the bottom or maybe it's separated a little bit? That is the nature of what zinc oxide and titanium dioxide like to do. They just will one day not be suspended due to the nature of Brownian motion and all those things. So what we see when it comes to those particles is because they also reflect a lot of visible light, just as much as they absorb visible light, you see them. Anything that reflects visible light, we perceive as a color. Whereas organic filters, I'm sure they do reflect visible light, but just not to the same extent as you would typically see from zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. They are literal minerals for that reason. So when you put them in a sunscreen, you have two problems, right? One of which they're prone to aggregation and agglomeration. And the second one is because they reflect visible light, when they aggregate and agglomerate more, that visible light scattering increases significantly. So that's where you see pasty colors of that white cast when you rub it on the skin. So I published a paper a few years ago about like, okay, formulators, these are the properties of zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. Here's how you can reduce white cast. Maybe you should not use it as a free powder. You should put it in a dispersion so it can disperse really nicely into a formula. And that does take care of some of the aggregation and agglomeration. Maybe you could choose a smaller particle size because you know that smaller particle size scatters light differently in such a way that you don't see it as much. But then of course you run into things where you don't get non-nanoclaims, which honestly, I think those claims are BS, but you don't get non-nano claims. Like there are all types of drawbacks and trade-offs when you're working with zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. But what I was interested in was thinking back to what made those sunscreens when I was working at the medical grade skincare manufacturer, what made those dispersions that the supplier had sent me so successful? And part of it was a change in particle size. But what I've always been interested in is what about a change in particle shape? Because you know, the particles aren't very uniform. They're not like perfectly spherical, they're just tiny little rocks that bump up against each other. So I had been really interested in some work from a shout out to Dr. Yogedra Mishra Kumar at the University of Southern Denmark. He spent the majority of his career synthesizing a particular shape of zinc oxide called a tetrapod. There's a core, and then there's kind of three spikes pointing out of that core in such a way that, you know, they're kind of needle-like spikes. And what's interesting about the tetrapod shape is instead, when you have two tetrapods that come near each other, they never fully touch because they're kind of like, you know, no pun intended, but an arm's length distance. So they don't aggregate and agglomerate the way that conventional zinc oxide shapes do. What they do is they form these networks that are kind of they introduce like porosity into the formula, which is really helpful for the rheology of the formula. So what that means is it won't settle as much and the colloidal suspension remains really nicely intact for longer. But what I found the most interesting was I didn't see as much of a white cast when I formulated sunscreens using tetrapods. So I took it upon myself to kind of invent a dispersion that allows the tetrapods to settle really nicely into a formulation. And then I tested it in different sunscreen formats: water and oil, oil and water, so sprays, liquids, gels, all those. And I found that every single time the white cast was reduced in comparison to conventional zinc oxides that I was formulating with. And ultimately, when I did some tests further in the lab, and this is, I guess I should mention this as part of my PhD research. So when I did some tests in the lab, I found that it's because the way the light scatters and reflects with that type of zinc oxide synthesis, it's much more favorable in the sense that it reflects more warmer light versus just that white, pasty light that you typically see with zinc oxide. So that made it closer to, I guess, the warmth that is more analogous to human skin tones. And then also the lessened aggregation agglomeration as well as the particle size was really advantageous for the um spreadability and the longevity of the formula itself. So yeah, that work is published and y'all can go read more about it.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

That's so freaking cool. So, like so essentially, like what you were saying, like the appendages that are coming off, like the the spikes, are they creating kind of a mesh then? Like it's like more of like a mesh-like configuration they lay down in. Is that what it is?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

It's not necessarily fully laid because you're always gonna have some tetrapod arm that's pointing upward or like outward direction, but for the most part, it it does follow that logic in the sense that it's like more spread over a surface really evenly, it's more porous. So, yeah, one could think of it like a mesh surface.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

So, like, I want to go back to like what you were talking about with like chemical sunscreens, like even though I agree with you with the word chemical, like please stop using that word. I mean, yeah, but I mean, I would love to understand

Tetrapod Zinc Oxide Changes The Optics

SPEAKER_00 18:10

like where does this really fall in that efficacy part? Does this impact the efficacy of a sunscreen in the sense of like, is it better? Is it altered? I mean, what are your thoughts around that? I brought the chemical thing in because people always use that claim of like with chemical sunscreens and mineral sunscreens, they're talking for some reason. I always hear the efficacy argument between the two, which I never understood. Does this kind of new way of like chemically thinking about it does it affect the long wear of a sunscreen, like the sun protection factor? Like, does that get impacted with this type of chemistry?

SPEAKER_01 18:41

Yeah. So whenever you are formulating a sunscreen, the sun protection factor, of course, has a lot to do with the UV filters, but it also honestly has a lot to do with the film formation and the adhesions. And I got a lot to say about the sun protection factor calculation. Maybe so. I guess let's take a step back and talk about how sun protection factor is even made, and then we'll come back around. So SPF, you come to the claim of an SPF through an in vivo test, so a clinical test. And what happens is that there are about 10 volunteers that come into a clinic and then they get irradiated with UV light on different sites of their back, specifically UVB light, because that light, you know, wavelength is more analogous to where sunburn comes from. And they get irradiated at different sites of their backs. Some have sunscreen applied, some have sunscreen not applied, and the dosage and time scale of the UV irradiation um increases like over time. So all SPF is is really a measurement of minimal erythema dosage. So how long it takes for UV light, UV irradiation to turn the skin red. The ratio of MED of you know unprotected skin versus sun-protected skin with the sunscreen. There's a lot wrong with this. One of which I know that I'm gonna, it's gonna take a lot longer for me to turn red. So, you know, take that what you will. I feel like that does kind of skew how SPF could be seen across, you know, a sample size. And then also like it's a visual endpoint, like MED, but also UVB specifically is all that is evaluated, right? So when you think of UVA, that's where UVA PF comes up. Uh, that is a completely different type, not that different, but it's a different type of test. So when I think of SPF in general, I honestly think that there's a lot more work to be done on communicating to the public how efficacious their sunscreen is, because it's not just the protection absorption against UVB light, it's also against UVA light that needs to be taken to account, which is communicated through UV APF. There's also visible light protection that needs to be taken to account, which is almost in no way, you know, communicated through the SPF value. So going back to what you first said, when we tested the zinc oxide tetrapod sunscreen, you know, dispersion versus others, we saw an interesting effect where um UVB light was absorbed, UVA light was absorbed, but a lot of UVC light was absorbed versus typical zinc oxide types. Now, again, that's great, but it doesn't necessarily improve the sun protection factor by doing so, right? Even if you absorb more visible light, it doesn't improve the sun protection factor. So when we tested with different shapes of zinc oxide, we saw that ours was comparable to one specific shape of zinc oxide, which was made by French process or by um soul gel synthesis. But when we look at French processed zinc oxide, which is used really widely in the sunscreen industry, that was testing at about spf 50 at the exact same concentration versus what we got from the tetrapod sunscreen and the soul gel zinc oxide at SPF 30-ish in a 20% weight by weight in the formula. But the trade-off there is that the French processed zinc oxide that tested at SPF 50 had a crazy white cast. So ultimately that's why it comes back to trade off, right? Like cosmetic elegance is actually really important so that people can apply the sunscreen and get the SPF value that's on the bottle at all. If it's giving a crazy white cast and it's SPF 50, you know, people are not applying at the two megs per square centimeters that dictates what an SPF value even. Comes from. So long story short, yes, good sun protection factor. But I think what the real value comes from is, you know, improving the sunscreen stability as well as improving the wearability of the sunscreen, because then that way they can get all the great sun protection factor that they deserve.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

That's such a yeah. And I love that you brought this up because you know where I get really confused with sunscreen is also the idea of like reapplication. People are like, oh yeah, well, you want to create that film on your face, and that's the I get that. But then when you reapply, it never gets discussed. The science of like what's happening on your skin, you know. And are you breaking down like the actual like are you still forming that same level of film? Are you still getting the same number, you know, for the SPF? I mean, that what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 22:44

In terms of Oh, I have a lot of thoughts on this, actually. So so much so that I actually again wrote a paper about this last year.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

I have a lot of please keep writing those papers.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

I love I just have a lot to say. Um yeah, so I guess you really only get the SPF value that's on the bottle one way, applying at a specific dosage at two milligrams per square centimeter evenly across a surface area. Now the surface area of our face is you know, it's not that large, but the surface area of our bodies, how do you evenly form that film across your entire arm and leg and back? Really hard to do. So, really, the way that people say it these days is do the two-finger rule or like I think it's what is it, a quarter of a teaspoon or a teaspoon or something. Yeah, it's like three thin fingers, too thick, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Exactly. And that's really just a way to kind of in some ways overapply so that you are getting the film formation that was used when SPF value was actually being tested when people were getting their backs burned. So that's where you think about things like sunscreen sprays, right? Spray it over your makeup, sunscreen powders. You aren't getting a continuous film formed all of the time because of the fact that sprays are really just thousands and thousands of tiny little droplets that are being deposited on a surface. But a continuous even film is not always being formed versus um a lotion or a cream where it evaporates and then the oil face sets and it's like nicely deposited on your skin. Same for a powder, right? Like or a stick. You have to do so many passes to get two makes per square centimeters.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Yeah. So many passes. The stick thing really like I don't get it because I'm like, you see, the people with like, oh, here, like I applied my stick, and I'm like, yes, yeah, it's the amount of passes that you would have to do is it's not always efficient.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Now, I take issue with being like, no, like don't do it at all because it's not as good. Because I do think there's a lot of value to like still topping up like over your makeup and stuff like that. Cause when people ask, I'm gonna be honest, when people ask me how do you reapply over makeup, I don't have a concise, perfect answer to that that doesn't yet involve applying two fingers worth of sunscreen over your makeup. Like, and nobody wants to do that. So this is exactly why the instructions of your sunscreen say apply and reapply after two hours. It's not because they want to sell you more product, it's not because they want to be annoying, it's quite literally because the fundamental of a sunscreen is beer's law, right? There has to be a film, and that film has to be thick in order to absorb the UV light so that your skin doesn't absorb it.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

Right. No, that's I mean, I'm so glad you're being so like just blatantly honest with us because there's so much dancing around on this topic. And that's where I get very, very frustrated because I'm like, let's just come out and say it. There is no such thing as the perfect like sunscreen then makeup application that's gonna last. Yeah, like those 12-hour wear tests that people are walking around doing. Like, guys, I'm just not wearing, you know, it wears off in like 20 minutes, like you're done.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Exactly. And that's why sometimes I don't know if this is snobby. Sometimes that's why I'm like the a lot of this is a material science problem. It is an inorganic synthesis problem. I I had to synthesize the zinc oxide in order to get to my conclusions. I had to really become well versed in the language of material science. So everywhere from like bulk properties

What SPF Measures And Misses

SPEAKER_01 26:00

of a product, optical properties, how to do an XRD, all these things in order to understand how to create better sunscreens. And I'm not saying that I'm perfect or that like I'm I know everything, but I have to understand that. I also have to understand clinical research, and I also have to understand the market. And that's why when brands come out with what they think is this is the sunscreen that's going to solve everything, I'm like, who are you to say that? Who are you to know that? But like there's regulatory hurdles, right? Like to mess.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

No, it's a lot. No, you're you're bringing up so many, like the points that need to be talked about in this industry. And I want to go back to one of the most amazing points you made, which was how we determine SPF, which is the reddening of skin. Now, as you you know very well articulated, was this idea of well, melanin-rich skin doesn't turn red like that. Okay. So one, you're not even evaluating for melanin-rich skin. Let's just say that, okay, because that's the truth. I mean, and no matter how many times I get it, people are now coming out with like tinted sunscreens and they're like, oh, look, we're being inclusive, we have deeper shades. I'm like, that still doesn't address that idea of what sunscreen's supposed to do, you guys. Like, you know, and so that's where it's like, I really love that you said that because it's like we have to, as an industry, think of like, first of all, where are the other biomarkers that we can utilize that's going to actually tell us about very, very early signs of damage to any any cell, you know, even stress, all that. Yeah, any of it. Like, and that's where I don't see research dollars being poured into is like well, you have all of these other things that you're trying to do, right? Like to figure out sunscreen, but you're not even investing in like what is actual UV damage, what does it look like on the skin? Redness is a that's a very late sequelae of any kind of damage, as you know, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Like we learned that in freaking immunology 101, like and at the end of the day, sunscreens are regulated as a drug and a cosmetic in the United States. So sometimes I'm like, why are we making drugs cute? Why are we rushing to sell drugs? Like, let's really take the time and understand, you know, and just take it a little bit slower because these are meant to treat, these are not just meant to beautify, but also to treat.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

I could honestly go down this rabbit hole with you about retinol. But new episode, yes. We can do a series on this because honestly, like that's exactly it is like drugs are drugs, and you need to have a vigor and a you know, like there needs to be stuff there that's going to actually validate a drug. And you know, what you brought up really makes me also think about like when we talk about drug delivery, right, and drug utilization, we're so much immersed in the world of like drug development pharmacology that has nothing to do with cosmetic science. And it's like, I feel like the and I would love your take on this, right? Because we are right now living in a world of a lot of cosmetic chemistry, nothing wrong with that. I love cosmetic chemistry, I think all of us do, but I think there is a real need to start differentiating between the different subdisciplines of chemistry and understanding where they fit in, this whole industry. I'd love to understand your take on that. Like, where what do you think we're doing right and wrong?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Sometimes I think when I hear others talk about their work, I'm like, that's so interesting because you're more of a claim substantiation scientist, or maybe you're more of a hair care scientist. But like chemistry is really about chemistry. Like, I don't know how else to say it. Like it's really about chemistry and understanding things from a very granular level. So I think like as a cosmetic scientist, I like that name more because it encompasses a lot of my expertise. Like I do microbiology for microbiome work and I also do the formulation and clinical research and all these hats that I gotta wear. But I do think that the industry should move towards more specialization. I see a lot of people wanting to come into the field or maybe already in the field and they are more product developers or have more product development interests, like sourcing packaging and stuff like that. Things I hate doing, by the way. I don't like but I think there's room for specialization at a wide spectrum. I do think that we need more people that really focus on testing methods and analytical chemistry and analytical science, and you know, just do that as a career, make that blow up, and that would improve things. And then we need more of the regulators as well that are really doing their thing in terms of claim substantiation and global market things that maybe chemists don't really have as much specialization in. I think that we're at a really ripe time though, because people are really coming into this industry with their own touch on things, like their own personal touch. And mine just so happens to be sunscreen. Why? You know, I just think it's interesting. I just love sunscreen and I love microbiome science and I love inclusivity. And so that's I hope answers your question.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah, no, it does. It does. I I just I just love listening to you speak because you're, I mean, it's so many just well-educated opinions and and ideas are coming out from you right now. And I'm just such a fan of that because I often in this industry, like for me, this was a hobby when I started this podcast. And I I feel like many times we're going in circles with a lot of these topics. And so it's very refreshing to hear someone with your background and with your interest level talk about this. Um, I think SPF, like that was a big topic for me, you know, because I'm like, SPF has never meant anything to me. When I see SPF of 50 or 70 on a bottle, I'm still using my sunscreen the way I would use SPF 25. And so, I mean, that was one of the big things. But I also want to ask you, you know, everyone criticizes the US is so behind. We're so behind with sunscreen filters, we're so behind with innovation. What's your take on that? Do you really think we're behind, or do you think we're just like stalling for like the big breakthrough? Or I mean we're behind.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

We like we're definitely behind. I will say though, I don't think that I would have gotten into the work that I do if we weren't behind. Like, is that a benefit? I don't actually know for the greater society. But when there's constraints, there's always pressure for innovation. So I would say that's the silver lining here in the sense that because they haven't approved an UV filter in

Reapplication Reality And Makeup SPF

SPEAKER_01 31:50

for however many decades. Although I know, yes, guys, I know that there is one coming, but there's no one coming forever. So I until I actually see it, I'm not gonna say it's here. And I'm speaking to reviewer two from my last paper review. Yeah. They were like, hey, I love one coming. Like, no, girl, I know it's coming, but it's not here. So but that's only really brought more, you know, chance for innovation. And that's always been the case. We've seen that in so many different ways in throughout, you know, the beauty industry history. And so I think that there are a lot of exciting sun care innovations. And I also kind of think that the word innovation is kind of overused because just because something is not being done at large scale doesn't necessarily make it innovative all the time. So I think the bar is just raising higher and higher. And I do thank our global regional counterparts in Asia for really paving the way and also in Africa as well, and so so many places in the world for paving the way in what beauty could look like in a way that we can responsibly in the United States um adopt and learn from and push further on our innovations, real innovations.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

I completely agree. I could not agree more with that. I think, yeah, the word innovation has kind of become bastardized at this point. Yes. And you know, it makes me think back to like the real, like the people, like I mean, what you just did, you just finished your PhD, like the ones that are in the lab actually spending the 18 hours on a an experiment that keeps failing over and over again. It's just like it makes you just really wonder if something new doesn't always mean innovation, like you said. And and also it's like at the same time, innovation should push things forward. Exactly. Not at this point. Like, and one of my big things, and I I would love for you to speak on this as well, is like for a long time there, we were talking about makeup, right? Like, and so this whole concept came up. First of all, what do you think about blue light? Let me start there. What do you think about blue light? Because this is gonna be a long-winded question. I just want to break it up for you.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Oh my gosh. I mean, blue light, I'm sure we can agree the laptop and the phone blue light, like doesn't really matter as much as the sun, blue light. But sun, blue light, yes. It is one of the many what light wavelengths that are probably cooking your skin. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 33:54

Yeah. So, like, then that's where that's where my question is because so much has been formulated in this bubble of like protect yourself from blue light. Like, what are we able to protect ourselves from, you know, like blue, like, should we be applying sunscreen at 9 p.m. at night trying to protect our laptop screens, you know?

SPEAKER_01 34:13

Like, no, this is one of those things that I feel like no one really asked for. No, don't be applying sunscreen at 9 p.m. Protecting yourself from your laptop screen because your laptop screen is not doing anything that the sun isn't doing in five seconds.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

Like, nobody asked for that's what I mean too, is like the sunscreen market has just gone in. Like, I hate saying that because it goes back to what you were saying, right? This is a drug at the end of the day, and we are literally treating it like whatever, like let's just run with it, put it in makeup. And that was my next question for you is like, how do you feel about makeup saying we've got inbuilt sunscreen in our makeup?

SPEAKER_01 34:44

I think it's it kind of makes me giggle in the sense that like makeup is gonna use titanium dioxide, anyways, as the pigment, right? And it's gonna use iron oxides anyways to make color. So I honestly find it kind of funny because it uses titanium dioxide as a pigment, iron oxides for color. In some way, it has the ability to absorb UV light just by nature of being what it is. And I think the industry picked up on that and then they started slapping the SPF value onto saying, like, hey, let's actually test for this and then let's call it SPF 50 or whatever. With that said, I mean, still comes back to Beer's law and reapplication. Like, am I really gonna be reapplying my foundation after two hours? No, I don't want to be doing that. But then it comes back to I'm a Pisces, so I have a lot of empathy. And I think about like it would be nice to just wherever you can get sun protection, get the sun protection. But I'm also a Capricorn Moon and Burger Rising, so I'm very strict about a lot of things. And I'm like, no, that's not enough. That's not, it's not the answer. But it is a nice sort of additional step. Like, think about the girl who's or the person who's wearing foundation with an SPF of whatever, and then also wearing their actual sunscreen, and then also going over and spraying it. Like, I applaud that person more than I applaud just the person who's swiping on one step of their skin, like the sunscreen, and then going on to the next thing and never reapplying.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Yeah, no, I like that. I like that answer a lot. And I I like that you mentioned like at least it's better than nothing. I mean, I do agree with you there, but

US Filter Lag And Real Innovation

SPEAKER_00 36:10

it's it's also like this. This is why I get so I get so worked up about this because I don't think it's consumers. Consumers want to do the right thing. We want to protect ourselves. There's not a single person I know that cares about their skin that's telling me I don't care about SP, like sunscreen. Yes, yeah. There's not a single one. And it's like just give us the tools to be able to do that, you know. Like that's my message to companies is like you guys have the money. Like, just you can take something like that and run with it, you know, like you can really turn this into a movement in this entire category. It doesn't have to be just this one thing that someone discovered. I mean, you've I'm so glad you created your company, but it's like I would love to see somebody step in, like a L'Oreal or an Estee Lauder, and be like, hey, AJ, come on up. Like, let's innovate the whole freaking space, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Well, the great thing is, yes, there is a patent pending on this invention. And so it is protected. And I will say, we do put a lot of pressure on sunscreen. If we think about it, if we really zoom out, it's a lotion. And she has one job, and her job is to absorb UV light. That's a big job to ask of a lotion, of a poor lotion. I think sun protection is a lifestyle. You know, when we think beyond, you know, taking things and running with it. What are other ways that we can introduce sun protection, right? Like it's not just the cream, it's also sun exposure, like UPF, wearing a hat, but in such a way we're also not fear-mongering because I don't know about you, but like my family, like, I don't think they're wearing sun screen. My family and Donna, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

My father is a professor, he doesn't believe in any of them. Like I just and I can't convince this man. There's no convincing him. He's a 70-year-old professor, so exactly.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

Which is why I like to also take a lighthearted approach to this in the sense that huh, we do spend a lot of time on this, but at the end of the day, I think there are just a lot of things that we just haven't tapped into yet. Like people were wearing mud back in the days as sunscreen, right? Because it doesn't let light transmit. So, what are some interesting fun ways that we can use to work around the current regulatory constraints that we have? And that, my friends, is innovation.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

That's right. I love it so much. No, this has been so great. AJ, I just I adore you. And I think Oh my gosh. No, really, like I Jenia, and hats off, like seriously, hats off to you for being a scientist, a woman in medicine and science and STEM that's actually innovating. Actually innovating. And and you're not scared to say it. And I I think that for me, that's so heartwarming to see that because I feel like a lot of times we just we bury that stuff under the rug. And we Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

I mean, I would love to also credit just, you know, like at the end of the day, I run a business, right? So it's important to just mention that as I'm figuring things out, I'm also literally scaling a business, right? Like getting to a point where we are able to make innovations and sell them and you know, one day hopefully get acquired and stuff like that. And huge shout out to the people that believed in the vision early on as well. I'm thinking of y'all, you to the people for funding some money into it. I'm thinking of you know Lameday from Topicals for doing so too, and just so many other people, the whole village that have been really, really, really supportive. So it's not just me. I've got a lot of great people that believe in this

Sunscreen As A Lifestyle And Closing

SPEAKER_01 39:20

work and and I really thank them too. I would love for more people to get on this fanwagon as well.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

So if there's anyone listening, which I know all of you are listening, I know who listens. Okay. Come on, guys, let's let's get on this because this is, I mean, honestly, like this is wonderful, and I think that this is how things move, you know. And so I love it. I love what you're doing, and and honestly, I'd love for you to come back and do a part two because I want to dive down that rabbit hole with you on other stuff, like retinal.

SPEAKER_01 39:45

Yeah, yeah, let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. Also, thank you for the work that you do. I think that like science communication is so important, and your platform is incredible, like every single thing like we were literally to talk about how she's getting a PhD as well. And getting a PhD is not easy, it's really not easy. Y'all have no idea. And so, thank you for all of the work. We really have dedicated our lives to this work, and like it's nice to know that there are other people that take this as seriously as as I do.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Absolutely. Thank you so much, by the way. That means a lot coming from you, and I I really appreciate it, and I really appreciate your time. This has been one of the best conversations I've had on the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

Oh, stop. No, it is. I love it, I freaking love it.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

So, but thank you so much. And for everyone listening, definitely chime in. I want to hear what you guys have to say about sunscreen and ask us questions, ask AJ questions. I'll definitely pass them along to her and and see if we can get a response.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

But yeah, thank you, y'all. Thanks for listening.