Burnout, Boundaries, and Returning to Yourself with Dr. Thema Bryant

In this deeply reflective episode of Skin Anarchy, Dr. Ekta Yadav sits down with psychologist, author, and trauma expert Dr. Thema Bryant for a conversation about healing, identity, and the emotional patterns that quietly shape the way we move through life. What unfolds is not just a discussion about trauma or relationships, but a broader examination of how people learn to disconnect from themselves in order to survive. 

Drawing from decades of clinical work and lived experience, Dr. Bryant explores the difference between healthy effort and self-erasure. Many people, she explains, mistake emotional suppression for being “easygoing” or accommodating, slowly shrinking themselves in relationships, workplaces, and social environments to avoid rejection or conflict. Over time, this conditioning becomes so normalized that people stop asking whether something is healthy—and instead ask whether it’s “bad enough” to leave. 

The conversation also dives into the emotional cost of visibility, performance culture, and burnout—especially for women and marginalized communities taught to equate worth with productivity. Dr. Bryant unpacks how rest, boundaries, authenticity, and joy often feel inaccessible not because people don’t want them, but because they were never taught they were allowed to have them. 

Throughout the episode, one message becomes clear: healing is not about becoming someone new. It’s about reclaiming the parts of yourself that were silenced along the way. 

Listen to the full episode to hear Dr. Thema Bryant discuss emotional wellness, relationships, burnout, and what it truly means to return to yourself.

Learn more about Dr. Thema Bryant
Don’t forget to subscribe to Skin Anarchy on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform.
Reach out to us through email with any questions.
Sign up for our newsletter!
Shop all our episodes and products mentioned through our ShopMy Shelf!

Transcript

Welcome And Why Mindset Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi guys, welcome back to another episode of Skin Anarchy. Today is a mindset episode, and I'm so excited about this episode because joining us today is a true expert in the field of so many different subdisciplines that intersect with the idea of mindset and mental well-being and understanding what that really means for us on a day-to-day uh basis. So, without further ado, please welcome Dr. Tima Bryant, who is a psychologist. Um, she's an author, she's a professor, an artist, and a minister. And she's really leading the way in creating healthy relationships, healing traumas, um, overcoming stress and oppression. Her books include Matters of the Heart, Homecoming, Reclaim Yourself, The Homecoming Workbook, and the Anti-Racism Handbook, which are practical tools to shift your mindset and uproot racism in your life and community. So welcome, Dr. Bryan. I'm so honored to host you.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Oh, you are. I am very, very grateful and excited to be with you on today.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

No, I'm so excited, and I really want to learn from you in this episode because there are so many things that you've touched upon in your work that not only do we not talk about, I think, as society, but like to get that expert opinion, you know, and to understand and navigate this, you know, because we're so busy these days that nobody pauses to think about some of this stuff. But I really want to start off, Dr. Bryant, by learning more about you and your journey because it's been extraordinary. And I'd love to learn what got you into psychology and what made you want to go in this direction with your life's work.

Dr. Bryant’s Path Into Therapy

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Absolutely. So growing up primarily in Baltimore, Maryland, uh, my dad was a pastor. And so within our community, people were more likely to go speak with a minister than with a therapist. And so, in addition to kind of like Sunday morning services, he would do pastoral counseling. And so people were often coming to meet with him about life challenges. And they would also call our home. I say in the book Homecoming, that my first time working a crisis hotline was in my childhood home. Uh, because people would just call with their distress and it kind of didn't matter who answered the phone. But I was also from very young thought of as a very sensitive child. And when people would say that, they usually didn't mean it in a positive if they call you sensitive. But as a therapist, it ends up being my superpower to really be tuned in and compassionate and empathetic. And so that's what started me on the journey. Is once I learned there was a field of counseling, of therapy in and of itself, even outside of faith-based spaces, I felt like that's what I'm meant to do.

SPEAKER_00 2:32

I love that. I love that it came from such a natural place. I'm already like have a million questions, you know, just for what you've explained, because people really kind of take that part of themselves. Like if they are sensitive and they are what I think I've heard a lot of people say empaths, they take that as a weakness and they don't hone in on it. So I want you to dive into like a lot of these topics later. But just

When Relationship Work Becomes Erasure

SPEAKER_00 2:53

to start us off, you've spent your career studying trauma, relationships, healing. What's the most common pattern people think is about love, but it actually ends up being something completely different?

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yes. So often people talk about relationships as being work, which they are, but sometimes the work is misunderstood. Meaning if we're in a relationship, whether friendship or romantic, the work should be us being on the same team, working toward a common goal. Uh, but when we're in unhealthy relationships, often we have become enemies or competitors, or we are performing for each other and not being authentic. Maybe one person gets to be real and express their needs, their wants, their dreams, and the other person is just kind of the holder of that. And so sometimes that gets presented as being low maintenance or easygoing, but sometimes people who are easygoing or low maintenance have actually learned not to need very much, to not risk disappointment or being afraid they won't be chosen if they uh share what they really want or think or need. And so should there be effort by everybody in relationship? Yes, relationships take effort, but what we want to be careful about is erasure. Am I being erased in order to hold on to this relationship? What is it costing me as it relates to me? Because our hope is that healthy relationships enhance us and help us to evolve and to grow and to be our best selves, not to be diminished.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Yeah. No, that's really powerful what you said. And it really makes me wonder because going to your point about how one person becomes that kind of submissive role in the relationship, I just wonder, I mean, what what is your opinion on the idea of like what that reflects about ourselves and like what we think of ourselves when we show up like that in a relationship?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Yes. I think when we show up to relationships in this like silenced or muted way, it is often that we have experienced abandonment or rejection. So then I'm so happy to be given any attention or to be chosen, and that can feel fragile, right? I don't want to mess that up. I don't want to lose this. And perhaps, you know, before this person, there had been like a time of loneliness. So then if we start to convince ourselves the parts or the fraction that I'm getting is better than nothing. So then we fight to hold on to the breadcrumbs because we don't believe we could really have like a love feast. We might think it exists, but it exists for other people, right? That I see other people getting loved on in that way. But like that has not been my experience. And so what we often do is compare. And if I've only had unhealthy treatment, then anything I'm getting, I might say it's better than what I had. But I like to say with clients, especially those who are coming out of abusive relationships, just because it's better doesn't mean it's good.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Yeah, that's it's so interesting that you said that. And especially just to like have you elaborate more on that, the idea of like an abusive relationship, I feel like, and I don't know if you think this way or not, but the way I see it in just my own circle of people, it's like we've almost stopped recognizing when abuse is abuse. And so it's like people don't come out because they don't genuinely believe that they're being, you know, abused in a relationship. Like what you were saying, where if you're the one that's always listening and you're always the sounding board, I mean, wouldn't that be a form of abuse at the end of the day?

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah.

Naming Abuse Beyond Physical Harm

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, I think what we often do, and your point is so important, is we often think of the more severe instances. So whatever is happening to us, we can downplay it, right? So I'll have people who will say things like, Well, they never punch me. They just one time like open hand slap me, but that wasn't a punch. Or they might have held me down, but they never did whatever this other thing is. And then definitely for the emotional piece, I think sometimes people are more open to the words of manipulation or more open to the idea of being neglected, right? They may say, well, it's not abusive. I definitely have been disrespected, neglected, taken for granted, perpetually cheated on. So it's like finding our language to understand what is happening and even what our expectations are, because then some of the mistreatment for people has become normal, normative, where they're like, oh, that's just what happens in relationships.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Yeah. No, that's really, really interesting to understand because I mean, it just makes you wonder like how we condition ourselves over time. I've also heard people say things like, well, it becomes a pattern of behavior that you've adopted, but it's like, well, then how do you break that pattern? How do you regain that control for yourself? And then also what's the tipping point, right? Of like regaining control of yourself, but then not exerting your control on somebody else. I'd love to hear you talk about control, you know, like this idea of what is control? What does it even mean to have control in a healthy way?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah.

Control Boundaries And Outgrowing Dynamics

SPEAKER_01 8:15

So one, in terms of kind of what's the wake up point for people or for everybody, the line is drawn at a different place. So what is the moment where I said, okay, like this is too much or this has gone too far? Some people, it's when someone they cares about says something to them about what they've observed or noticed. Cause in that, like they respect this person's opinion. They feel like this person knows me, like this is my best friend or my sister. And they're like, you know, what's going on with you? Right. And so sometimes to hear it from someone else's perspective, some people who are parents will say when they see it affecting their children, that that became like the, oh, wait a minute, something has to shift. And in terms of like breaking the cycle or the pattern, I like to tell people when we heal and grow, some people won't like it. Right. That there are people who are gonna celebrate you when you grow and they're like, oh, you found your voice. I love that you're speaking up for yourself, you know, that confidence looks good on you. And then there are gonna be people who are gonna say, like, you change. You know, you used to, you didn't have a problem with it before, and now you have a problem with it now, or suddenly you have a bunch of opinions and they're bothered by it because some people, it wasn't that they loved you, they loved your passivity, they love that they got to always have their way. And so they may not celebrate the new you. What they may have been drawn to is the ability to control you. And so now when you're not so easy to control or manipulate, then they may present that as you're not a good partner. Then, like when we grow and change and heal, there's a ripple effect. It does affect our relationships. And so then it's about can the relationship adjust to the new me, or has the relationship expired?

SPEAKER_00 10:09

Yeah, that's I mean, that's a tough call too, right? Like making that call that takes like so much reflection on what is actually going on. And you know, it really makes me wonder also, Dr. Brian, because I see a lot of like just watching social media, watching myself, watching my friends. I feel like we're living in a society right now where we're trying to find ourselves and who we are and grounding ourselves in something, right? Whether that's our sort of beliefs, whether it's a stance. And I just wonder like, where is that balance between letting the people in our lives dictate who we become versus becoming who we really want to be? What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01 10:48

Yes. So, you know, we think about community and relationships. We can heal and grow together. And sometimes, as I named, people who care about me might share an insight about me that I had overlooked. And they're like, no, you know, you're really good at whatever this thing is. Um, or I notice when you're nervous, you do whatever this is. And so that can help my self-awareness. That is different from when I have to abandon myself to be what other people want me to be. So then what they're doing is not creating the safety and support for me to bloom into my true self. It is they're trying to make me into their image of what either a good daughter or a good partner or a good sister would do in this moment. So uh, you know, that what we can pause to ask ourselves is is there any room for my thoughts and feelings in this relationship? Or is it really just someone else wanting to control me and dictate my life with no care for what I actually feel and want?

SPEAKER_00 11:59

Yeah, I love that. And I I wonder because we're talking so much about relationships and it's such an important topic, but I always like wonder how do we superimpose this on the daily relationships we have with like the people online that are watching our content, you know what I mean, like our work environment, because it's all blends together, right? It's like

Authenticity Over Approval Online

SPEAKER_00 12:17

we're in relationships with everybody in our life. And my question really is how do we get out of this mindset of like not just people pleasing, but almost like that instant gratification, dopemean hit of someone approving of us? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yeah, I think in part it's releasing the need for everyone to approve of you all the time. Yeah. And to recognize no matter what you choose, there are gonna be people who like it and don't like it. So then let's start with what do you feel about it? Like, did you pick the outfit because you loved it? And you know, like some people may be like, uh, she's wearing yellow. Why do you have on yellow? And I'm like, I love it. Right. And so then I I can feel free in that. But if when I put it on, the thought was, I'm gonna wear this because everyone's gonna say I look great. Well, now the the goal is off, right? Uh so for us to learn how to take pause to check in with ourselves. So it's like, you know, on my in my social media, I post dancing a lot, right? I love dancing. And then some people may say, like, uh, why are you posting dancing all the time? Well, like this page is probably not for you. And that's okay, right? Go to somebody else. And somebody else is posting what you want. And most importantly, why don't you post what you want instead of expecting me to give you what you want?

SPEAKER_00 13:38

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love that. And you know, also like that feeds into the whole, well, people are criticizing me, you know, I have to now shift things up because I don't want over critique on social media. And it's like, do whatever the heck you want, you know?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah. And what I also say to people is just as your authentic self, your real self, will repel some people, it will also draw some people, right? You know, I've talked to people who are afraid of let's say shifting their content because they used to post a lot about this, but you know, people grow and change and live, and now they're more interested in something else, but worried about the quote unquote followers. And it's like, even if some of them leave, it's okay. People who are drawn to what you're interested in now will find you.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah. I think that's really such an important message because especially like when I see like Gen Z, for example, you know, they're most of them are coming into their 30s. And it's like I watch a lot of content online, you know, just because I'm in media and I always see a lot of girls, especially a lot of women, young women that are like, Well, your content was this five days ago and now it's this, you know, and it just makes you wonder. It's like, when are you gonna stop? You know, and just be you. Just it doesn't matter if you're sitting there with like a ponytail and no makeup, you know, but just be yourself, like you know, that that's the most interesting part, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

You know, we're often trying to become something, but what people are often hungry for is realness, right? It's like who's being true? Who do I feel like that's actually them? And that's what's really interesting, even if it's very different for me. It's like, oh, like I'm getting an actual human moment.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Yeah, exactly. And I

Familiarity Versus Real Compatibility

SPEAKER_00 15:26

want to kind of shift a little bit because there's this thing, you know, it's interesting to me to watch this where we kind of confuse familiarity with compatibility a lot of times, whether it's in our friendships, relationships, whatever. And I'd love for you to speak on that. Like, what is that that we're doing when that happens? And how do you catch that?

SPEAKER_01 15:43

Yes. One, I want to also say sometimes we have a false sense of familiarity, meaning we think we know people based on social media. Yes, right. And even if people post a lot, like we actually don't really know them, right? We know the aspect of them that they're choosing to share, which is an aspect, but it's not the whole thing. And so then as it relates to familiarity and compatibility, we often hold on to what is familiar because fear of change and discomfort with the unknown. So then we're like, yeah, this person has been my friend, you know, since I was a teenager. And so I know them and they know me. But even if the friendship is not fulfilling anymore or we've grown apart, sometimes we hold on just because like I know them, right? And I don't want to risk either loneliness of it being hard to make new friends, or, you know, not being sure that I can let my guard down because I don't really know this person yet. Yeah. The same thing happens in romantic relationships where, you know, we can hold on just because we've been in it a long time. And people say, like, I don't want to start over, right? It's like, oh, start up, this was a lot. So start all over. In social psychology, the term is sunk cost. And it's the more we've invested in something, the harder it is to walk away. And so we hold on even when it's not compatible.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Wow, I didn't know that. I didn't I've never heard of sunk cost. That's really wow. I've been in like seven, eight-year relationships, and like now I look back, you know, right? Like decades later, I'm like, what a what was I doing? Why was I there? That why was I there?

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah, we definitely are like, you know, especially when it's been years, it's like I don't want it to be a waste. So people think like if I walk away, then that time was wasted. Meanwhile, we keep adding more time to it.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you know what's crazy is this actually applies a lot to medicine, I feel like, or any science discipline. I'm sure you've seen this a lot of professionals go through this, uh-huh, where it's like we'll end up in a career and we're like, well, I'm in now. Yes. Two decades later, you know. Yeah, I'm not gonna change it now. Yeah, and I've seen this a lot lately online. There's this really famous um, he's a spine surgeon, and I, my heart is going out to him right now because he is a brilliant man. He spent his entire life working, training, whatever, and he made a statement on social media and he was like, I'm stepping away for a while. I need a break. And it's like this whole topic comes up, right? Of like professional fatigue and medicine, and people are just going in on him for this. And I'm like, guys, he's he doesn't owe us anything. Right. I also want to get your perspective here is because I've seen that a lot like recently in the recent years where a lot of medical professionals or like in the science community, they're saying, It's been a lot, you know, and I want to step away, but they don't do it, they don't end up taking that leap. What are your thoughts on that?

Breaks Burnout And Reinventing Yourself

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Well, I think we have the great example from like Simone Biles and like other athletes who have said, like, I'm taking a break for mental health. And, you know, people get mad because they're like, you know, this is this is prime time, or you know, you need to show up for your fans. I appreciated Howard John Wesley, who's a pastor in Maryland, who made like the news because as a pastor, he took a mental health break. Yeah. And people are like, wait, what, you're supposed to be my pastor. But I think it's great for us to model for people, both taking a break, but also giving ourselves permission to reinvent ourselves. One of the things I enjoy about teaching at the doctoral program at Pepperdine is we have the students who went like straight through school, like I did, but also these students who are like second or third career, who like they did a whole thing for a number of years and then said, you know what, I want to become a therapist. And it's it's wonderful to not have to feel stuck just because of my age or the amount of time I've given something in mindfulness. They talk about beginner's mind. And like, am I open to being a beginner again? Especially when I've been like the expert, but like to be committed to that lifelong learning or like what's my next chapter that we can, yeah, give ourselves that.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Yeah, no, I mean, I love that that you said that you've seen students go through this. I mean, it's really happening. Like, I've seen a lot of people talk about this where it's like, I just want something different in my life, you know? It's like just let people have that space, like exist.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

But it also, as you were saying, people giving that doctor a hard time. It gets to that sense of entitlement people they have to your labor and and to your free labor, right? That they should always have access to you, you know, 24-7. And so when we set those boundaries, some people aren't gonna like it, but it's important that we set it for ourselves to protect our own peace.

SPEAKER_00 20:45

Yeah, that's really, really intelligent to say, because I wanted to ask you this actually.

Entitlement To Labor And Hustle Pressure

SPEAKER_00 20:50

This is one of the biggest questions I've had recently. When it comes to this like public display of changing gears, right? Or like you're changing something in your life, or maybe just something that people have an opinion about. I have seen a disproportionate amount of people of color get dragged online. And we're not doing anything different than what our Caucasian friends are doing. We are doing probably less in a lot of cases. And that doctor I told you about happens to be a person of color, and he is not doing anything I haven't seen a Caucasian doctor do, right? I would love to get your take on this because you have spoken about what racism truly is and like understanding that in your day-to-day life. How much of this do you think needs to be addressed from that angle and that lens of racism versus just, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 21:37

Like the other it's a definite component uh when we look at the experience of people of color in this nation that we have from the beginning been evaluated based on our labor, right? Whether labor as enslaved folks or labor as immigrants. At needing to be busy to be deserving to be present, right? It's like, what are you doing for the institutions? And so we're supposed to sacrifice ourselves, our physical and mental health, to build up things that are not loyal to us, right? To be loyal to institutions that are not loyal to our wellness. And so, you know, so we get that from outside of our community, but then we have internalized that. And then we put that pressure on each other to that language around like hustle and grind and lean in, that the goal is to be booked and busy. And now this thing where your hobbies, you need to monetize. If you look to do something, you're not making money off of it, that you're doing it wrong. So it is this perpetual push for extraction and for our labor and trying to fight stereotypes, right? So it's like, well, I want to make sure people know I'm not lazy. So now I'm doing the job of three people while being paid for one, right? Right. So I think the racial and ethnic piece has to be looked at as well as gender. You know, the amount of unpaid, unacknowledged women's labor is another big dynamic, both in the home and outside in the workplace. The expectation of perpetual sacrifice, the expectation of being a caretaker for others and never needing anything yourself.

SPEAKER_00 23:23

That's huge. Yeah. Oh my God. Like that hits home so hard for me. Yeah. I mean, I resonate so much with that. I think also like one of my big questions is I feel like people who grow up in immigrant households or people of color, this idea is hammered into us from the beginning, I feel like, of you need to work for everything that you have. And if you don't work for what you want, then the world is going to kick you down more than they're already going to do it, you know? And so I feel like from childhood, we're being conditioned not only by the outside, but our home. So how do we get through that to a point of like having a healthy relationship with this idea of work-life balance or like whatever that might be? Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

So I think we can first acknowledge and appreciate our foreparents, who many, many of whom had to do it that way. Yeah. You know, like didn't get therapy, couldn't take a nap in the middle of the day. And so, you know, to recognize like that's where the advice is coming from is they did not have, whether legally or financially, the spaciousness to take care of themselves in that way. Yeah. You know, so I can value it, I can appreciate it, I can celebrate it without having to duplicate it. Yeah. Right. And so, you know, it's like, what's the wisdom in that that I want to learn? But how do I also want to modify it for myself? That I'm not a terrible person if I take a nap, that I'm not a terrible person if I sometimes say no to people's request for me to give up my Saturday for everybody else. And so I can build on their example, but also create some new examples.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And also like off topic, but not really, like coming to the beauty industry. I talk a lot about like, you know, beauty products and brands and stuff on here. And one of the things I've seen, and it's actually bothering me, and it's been bothering me for a long time, is that we have finally we're finally seeing a movement towards supporting black-owned brands, supporting brands that are founded by people of color. Love that, right? And like I personally, I know me and a lot of people I know have made decisions where we're like, I'm not going to buy from other brands. Like, I'm dedicating myself to this. I'm going to support only the brands that I want to buy from, right? That's a choice I'm making. But then on the flip side, people will criticize you and say, well, that's also racist for you to do that. And I'm like, I don't know why we were even having that. We've been doing this for centuries, where we didn't get the opportunity to do that. So now you want to bring that up? What are your thoughts on that?

Equity Backlash And Reverse Racism Myths

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Yeah, I think it's the false parallel, the false existence of when people say reverse racism. So the reality is the way it's been described is when you're used to having privilege, when things are more equitable, it feels unfair to you. Right. So when you're used to the magazines only highlighting images of yourself, and now you're like, we they have these images of other people or these other people's products in them, and they're taking jobs from the white models. So that's reverse racism. It's like, no, that's why you know people have tried to make equity a bad word. What I what I would say psychologically is it's masterful gaslighting. Yeah. Right. And so what it does is that people who are speaking up for justice get accused of racism or sexism. Like if people say I'm for women's rights, then people will translate that to you hate men. Yeah. Right? Oh, exactly. It is an attempt to silence, to shame. It is an attempt to bring back the world in which they love, which is oppressive, right? Right. So, you know, for me, when some people are upset with the efforts toward equity is confirmation that we're doing the right thing. It just is disturbing for them because some people, if they're not being the center, feel like something is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah, that's really, really powerful what you just said. I mean, and being in that position also, another thing that really irks me and it really disappoints me, I'm not gonna lie, is when I see the communities, right? Our communities, in my opinion, they matter more now than ever. Like I'm Indian. For example, my community to me, I will do everything I can to support another Indian person, another black person, anybody, you know, because I know that that's going to create change in the long run. Even my little one vote with my one dollar is going to make a change somewhere, you know? But then at the same time, we are breaking each other down. And no one wants to talk about that. If you bring it up, you become the villain and you get pulled out of the group and you know what I mean, shunned from the group. But it's like that's the reality. Like it's like clubhouses within clubhouses are being created and we're not tackling the problem. I mean, what are your thoughts on that in terms of why do people do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Well,

Solidarity And Building A Sense Of Home

SPEAKER_01 28:26

it is effective campaigning and propaganda created by those with the most power and resources. Yeah. It's to keep people who are marginalized attacking each other. Because if we fight each other over these little things, we'll overlook the fact that the whole pie is actually on the other side of town. So then I can say, like, this isn't fair, because you're core, you're like, we're fighting over crumbs. And so for us to think strategically and collaboratively so that we can actually shift the larger pie, right? That is the key. So what has happened is, you know, we've been told lies about each other and, you know, stereotypes about each other. And so then it becomes for marginalized people not to trust each other or to work with each other, who does that serve? Yeah. So it's uh we can see how we got there. And it's so important for us to understand what it means to move in solidarity and to see the ways in which uh we are facing common injustices. And I'm gonna include in that impoverished white folks who are often tricked into believing people of color and that immigrants are the enemy, are the reason why they're not wealthy, which is not like the actual barrier to their progression. So we have a lot of work to do for us to see the actual issues structurally, systemically, and to see that we actually have a lot in common.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Yeah, we really do. You know, it's it's crazy because I talk about this with my friends a lot. We talk about these topics of like when I first came to America, I was five years old. And for me, the first people that embraced me were young black girls that I met at my school. None of the white friends, they didn't care about me. They actually taught me how to do my my hair. And it's like I will never let go of that my entire life. And it left an impression on me about isn't just like, oh, obviously, like I will always support black people at being Indian, being outside of the race, but it was more about feeling like I'm home somewhere. It was like more than community. It was a feeling of home. And that's what I never see talked about. It's not just like we're supporting our communities, we're creating a new home for ourselves. And like, you know, we have to do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Right. I I love that because as you're naming, it's also like the revolution in our own intimate spaces. Yeah. You know, we can think about like these large policy things that we need to work for, but also what it means for us to welcome each other in and to provide that care and that comfort and that affirmation and that belongingness, right? And this is more than tolerance. You know, people like to promote that word tolerance or intolerance. No, to be celebrated, right? To be seen, to be welcomed, to be respected, to be appreciated. That's what we need to do so that the intimate revolution of welcoming each other home.

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Yeah, I I really would love to see that like vibe just like out there, you know, and like and get over like the hoops of like I can't see this, I can't show up like this. You know, like it's like almost like we're always putting on a front of like inclusivity. And it's like, let's get over that, you know? Let's actually be inclusive. Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

And I and I appreciate you sharing the story because I think, you know, the stories of the divisions are often amplified, and we miss like these beautiful stories, beautiful moments of the times when we have been able to be at home with each other. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And you don't know what that's gonna be. That's why like genuinely in my soul, I don't get why people don't realize you don't know what home's gonna feel like till you feel it. And you don't know where that's gonna be, you know. Right, right. Especially anyone out there, if you've traveled, you know, before and you've been to like some foreign land and you felt like, oh my god, I feel more at home here than my home, you know, like it's true.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

It's just a universal language, like uh-huh. The state of mind, the state of the heart, the freedom to be fully myself and be embraced as my full self. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Identity At Work And Cultural Respect

SPEAKER_00 32:43

I want to talk about women because I feel like your work really speaks to I think a lot of what women go through and what we struggle with a lot. And I think one of my big questions, and I I've really resonated with this one statement, which is women need to stop saying I'm a woman in business or I'm a woman founder, and we need to just really hone in on this idea of like, I'm a human being that's just really good at what I do, you know? And I've heard that argument and I do somewhat align with it. But like I'm curious, where do you think we can have a little bit of flexibility there where we're still able to address the real concerns that exist based on our race, our gender, and all of these things that are marginalizing us, but then also still kind of hold on to that power of like, yeah, I am a human being that's just doing great things in life, you know?

SPEAKER_01 33:27

So I think it's important for us to consider like all of us have like these three levels. We're all human beings, and then we all have various identity groups that we're a part of, and then we're we're all like unique individuals. Yeah. And when we hold that all three of those things are true simultaneously, we never again have to say, I'm not a woman or I'm not black, I'm human. Because that creates the idea that humans are not these things. Yeah, right. So it's like, no, no, no, I'm not black, I'm a human being. Like, yeah, black people are human. So it's like it's almost like a false choice. And then that unique self is just that, like, sometimes if I'm in a space where there are not a lot of black people and I do something, and people are like, oh, is that a black thing? And it's like, no, it's just a tame thing, right? So there's some stuff that's just like you. And so, like, I get it when we're like, I don't want to be chosen because I was the identity that was missing on their table. I want people to know, you know, that I'm qualified and all of these things. And at the same time, there can be a beauty in being in particular places with my identity. Because sometimes, you know, you mentioned business. Uh, sometimes people can think that to be a good business person, I have to suppress my womanhood. Yeah. As opposed to, especially as we look around the world today, wouldn't we benefit from some spaces where like a woman and leader in leadership showed up with a mindset that was not like this stereotypical hyper masculine version of leadership? Right. Right. And so to be present as myself so that I'm not a token or like, does me being present change the table at all? Does it enhance the room? And if I have to leave all of my selfness out, then that won't happen. Yeah. Right. Then it could be like I'm just gonna do it like everyone else. But maybe what we need is to do it a new way.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

Yeah, no, I love that. I'm I I yeah, I really resonate with that, I think, more than anything else. Because I mean, I get it, right? Where it's like you want to make an impact. I I know for me, being in science, that's been my lifelong like struggle in like life overall. You know, it's like competing with the men, being sure that I'm, you know, like not leaning on to like things that I really genuinely feel like I'm being discriminated over, you know. Like it's not that they went away. I just felt like I could never speak about it. Because if I did, that weakens my argument for my credentials, my expertise, or whatever. A lot of women are doing that these days. They're like, well, don't talk about being a woman, you know, just be a leader. And it's like, I can be both. Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

And and the key is people act like the ones talking about it are the problem. Yeah, we're not the problem, we're pointing out the problem. And so it's the mistaken belief that if you all would stop talking about it, everything would be fine. Yeah, you know, and we have seen for generations when it's not talked about, it's not fine, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Like we're not there yet where we can stop talking about this stuff. Like, I totally get it. We all want that, like the this beautiful happy day where we wake up and as women, we don't feel like we're being discriminated against, right? Hallelujah. Would love to see that day come, you know. But like at the end of the day, it's not there.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

And if we stop and we don't talk about this now, it's never and not only do we get frozen in time, but what we see happening is we actually go back, right? Yeah so we actually lose rights, we lose access, we see the large scale discrimination, harassment, assault, violence, all of those things without punishment, without penalty, without justice. So our silence will not save us, and uh pretending things don't exist doesn't make them go away. Yes, a hundred percent. This is like healing me talking to you.

SPEAKER_00 37:39

Like I just want to say I'm loving it. I love your questions and reflections. Thank you. No, this is it's such a privilege to have this insight from you because like I sit around and I I try to start this podcast, and I this is one of the questions I had for you actually was there was a quote I put on my little page, and I said, just because I sound educated doesn't mean I'm white. And I had a lot of people give me feedback on that because it resonated with that, you know. And as being Indian American, I grew up being told you need to talk this way, you know, you need to present yourself in the most professional way imaginable, or no one is gonna take you seriously. And you're not gonna be in the same level, you know, as everybody else. And I'd love for you to kind of shed light on that. We're in different races, different cultures, we're often asked to give up our cultural prints, you know, fingerprints, just to fit into this mold and what that means for us in the long run.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

Yes, there is additional emotional labor and erasure. And what the silent and sometimes not so silent message is, is that your culture is not professional. Right. And so to think about like psychologically, the psychological warfare of that, to believe I cannot be who I am if I want to be worthy, that I have to be the most I can to be like you, to be worthy. Instead of what would it mean for me to shift the environment where I can be present? Where I can actually be present. And, you know, a part of that then is I think of it as holding the door open. What am I doing in the spaces I am in that will hopefully make it more welcoming for those who are coming after me?

SPEAKER_00 39:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:28

Right. That in my presence, but also in the ways in which I show up, how that can broaden the door, the possibility, the expectation.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Right. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I just feel like there needs to be, I don't I don't even want to say forgiveness, but like acceptance of like, well, if I speak whatever way, you know, a lot of us do. A lot of cultures, we have our own almost dialect at this point. We might all be living in America speaking English, but we all have a way of saying things. And I'm so sick of that people call it slang or whatever, being interpreted as unprofessional or you're not serious, or I hate that.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

It's selective usage because white people will take that and use it. Yeah. You know, yeah, uh, there was a poem that said they love everything about you but you. Yes. Right? Yeah. Oh, we love your culture, we love your food, we love the way you all say that. But then when you say it, it's a problem. But if I can extract it from you and that makes me more cool, more in, more hip, more whatever, yeah. Uh so I'd say get out of here with all of that. That our stuff is magnificent and everybody knows it.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

That's right. That's right. I love that. And also, like, please start saying culture. Like, that's honestly one of my biggest qualms. If you're taking from black culture, say the word culture. It's a culture. If you're taking from Indian culture, say the word culture. You know what I mean? Like, let's stop saying culture.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

Pretending you've made up stuff or not recognizing its roots, its origins, uh, its creators.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Yes, yeah. Well, Dr. Bryant, this has been such an honor. I am so grateful. Like, thank you for doing what you do. I feel like everybody in the world needs to hear you because this is the kind of conversation that really kind of leaves you like you think. And I think we need that in this world nowadays. People are not thinking. I'm just gonna say that. We're not sitting down and like evaluating, you know, like what's right in front of our face. So I just thank you so much for your time and your wisdom. Thank you. I so enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

I appreciate you and appreciate you holding this space. So, yes, a big thank you. Thank you so much.