Building a Category Then Challenging It: Alli Webb’s New Vision for Hair

In this episode of Skin Anarchy, Dr. Ekta Yadav sits down with Alli Webb, the founder of Drybar and creator of Messy, for a candid conversation about entrepreneurship, innovation, and the evolving relationship people have with their hair. Best known for transforming the blowout into a category-defining experience, Alli reflects on the journey from launching a mobile styling business to building one of the most recognizable brands in beauty.

What emerges is a powerful lesson in how great businesses are built. Drybar didn’t succeed because it invented something new—it succeeded because it solved a real problem. Alli shares how identifying an unmet consumer need, combined with relentless focus on experience, consistency, and accessibility, helped create a brand that resonated far beyond the salon chair.

The conversation also pulls back the curtain on the realities of entrepreneurship. Beyond the headlines and success stories, Alli speaks openly about the challenges of scaling a company, maintaining a clear vision, and navigating the constant problem-solving that comes with growth. Her perspective offers a refreshing reminder that successful businesses are rarely built through perfect planning—they evolve through resilience, adaptability, and curiosity.

As the discussion turns to her latest venture, Messy, Alli shares how a shift in her own relationship with hair inspired a new philosophy. Rather than constantly transforming texture through heat and styling, she began embracing her natural waves and encouraging others to do the same. The result is a brand centered on hair health, authenticity, and working with your hair rather than against it.

Listen to the full episode to hear Alli Webb discuss building iconic brands, embracing natural texture, and why authenticity may be the most powerful beauty trend of all.

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Transcript

Welcome And Why Ali Matters

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is a very special episode. We have such an iconic guest with us today. I am such a Stan and have been for a long time. As many of you know her, she created one of the biggest brands in the hair care industry. And I think everybody has tried it at this point. Without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Ali Webb, who is the founder of Dry Bar and now the founder of Messi by Ali Webb. Welcome, Ali. I'm so, so honored to host you.

SPEAKER_01 0:23

Uh, thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

No, it's truly a pleasure. And I can't wait to dive in to everything that you're doing now. But I would love to kind of have you walk us down memory lane if you could talk to us about dry bar because dry bar was a phenomenon, you know, it really took the industry by storm. And I just want to kind of dive into that. Like what got you into the hair care industry to begin with? And like where did it all begin for

Ali’s Hair Story And First Steps

SPEAKER_00 0:44

you?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Well, it really all began, you know, when I was a kid growing up in South Florida with like all the humidity and my naturally wavy hair, which I now really embrace and love, hence messy, was just really challenging for me. And, you know, I didn't I didn't go to college and just didn't feel called to that and went to PD school when I was in my early 20s and just I could make the argument to learn how to blow out my own hair. And I just always had this obsession with my hair and hair in general and blowouts and fast forward to many, many years later after trying many things and having many lives and careers. I had moved to LA when my kids were born, thought I was gonna be a stay-at-home mom and you know, arguably the hardest job that there is, you know, being a mom. And as much as I loved being able to stay home with my kids and felt like that was so lucky to be able to do that, I really missed doing something for myself. And so I started this mobile blowout business in LA, I guess in around 2008, 2009. And I, you know, I was only charging 40 bucks to go to women's house to do blowouts, which, you know, is kind of unheard of then and now. And during that time, I realized that, you know, there was a really big hole in the marketplace for, you know, an affordable great blowout. And my mobile business was really taking off, but I I felt like I wanted to expand, but didn't want to do it mobile. So I went to my brother, Michael, who's my business partner forever, and said, Hey, I have this idea to turn my basically my mobile business into a brick and mortar. And that's really how the idea for Drybar came about. You know, I felt like I knew there were enough women out there like me who were kind of seeking, you know, a great blowout and and a great experience and it just didn't exist, you know, which is you know the cornerstone for any great idea or business is like, you know, something we all want that doesn't exist. And so at the right price point and the right experience and customer service and ambiance and all of that, I thought maybe this would work. Having no idea at that time it would turn into what it did. I mean, that was something I don't think any of us really anticipated. But, you know, we started at $35 and, you know, I have such a wealth of knowledge of hair and blowouts that I felt like I was, you know, uniquely qualified to do it and it worked.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Yeah, no, it definitely worked. I mean, it's

The Drybar Idea And Category Shift

SPEAKER_00 2:52

so inspiring because I love when I talk to founders who have created like a category because that's like a totally different thing than just like creating a product within an existing space. You know, my questions are always like, Well, where did you discover that, like, wow, this is an entire category? You know, like this doesn't exist. Like, I know what you just said, like if that makes sense, like you want to create something people need, but like it's like, when does that happen when you're in your journey where it's like, oh my God, like, you know, this is a whole different niche that I've kind of put together, you know, through this whole endeavor.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Well, I think coming up with something that is a problem or something you're trying to solve. And usually that comes from personal necessity, right? It's like, like, we obviously didn't invent blowouts, we just created a much better experience for them and a much better price point and, you know, and everything that came along with it. And that's, you know, always my advice to other, you know, women or founders or just people. I mean, I have two sons who are in the throes of trying to figure out what they're doing with their lives. It's like, you can take something that already exists and make it a hell of a lot better. It's really paying attention. And I think that like anybody can think of something that you really enjoy, but you wish it was better in some way, you know, and and then there's an opportunity. And I see them around me all the time. It's like a blessing and a curse. You know, it's like I walk into a restaurant or my favorite coffee shop or whatever it is, and it's like, I love this, but if they did X, Y, and Z, it would be even better, you know. And and I think that that's, you know, while I didn't set out to change an industry, it just was like truly, it never even occurred to me. I was just like, I always wanted there to be a place where I could get an affordable great blowout, you know, in a great setting. And I really tried to make it something that I wanted to do, like something that I, you know, as a busy mom woman, and you know, it's why we put the chick flicks on the TV and had Wi-Fi and the little cookies, which surprisingly were always such a big fan favorite. It was just like all those little touches made it really special, not to mention the customer service and how you were treated and it looked high-end but didn't have the high end price tag. I mean, it was just, you know, I can go on and on with all the little things. And that, and that's really, I think, how you make anything successful is like paying attention to all those small details. And unfortunately, that's missed a lot in business, you know, and when people kind of skim on that stuff or don't think about it. And, you know, for me, it's like that intensity around detail, I think is is what makes you stand out.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Absolutely. No, and I, you know what I really love about and this I've noticed this with a lot of the brands that were kind of in that era of when dry bar was starting off was that there was so much like uniqueness back then in the beauty industry. Because like when I discovered dry bar, for me it was a very unique as a consumer, very unique experience. I was like, I love the packaging, I love the branding, I love the the feel of the products, and that was amazing as a consumer. But like nowadays, I feel like people are just gravitating towards a recipe, you know, of what that kind of brand looks like at the end, you know? And so I would love for you to speak on this about, I mean, you started with a very unique idea, but you scaled it to a 200 million plus acquisition brand, you know, that's huge. But I feel like nowadays people are starting at that end goal, you know what I mean,

Small Details That Create Loyalty

SPEAKER_00 5:52

and kind of working backwards. Yeah. And it's like, I'd love for you to kind of speak on this. What is that starting place and that mindset of like when you want to create a brand on that scale?

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Well, it is interesting. And and and I, and while I think it's great that like a lot of colleges and stuff are are now, you know, having entrepreneurial programs for students, which is great. But I do think understanding your business kind of I still believe in like, you know, the crawl wop run kind of philosophy of like, you know, starting small, figure out what you're doing, be open to pivoting, being nimble and and seeing what works and what doesn't. I mean, we we changed lots of things as we went, as we were growing, you know, and learning and and not putting the cart before the horse, you know. It's like I see also a lot of businesses who are like, oh, I have this brand and I want to, or some sort of retail concept and I want to franchise it. And it's like, well, is it actually franchisable yet? Is the demand out the door? And so I think it's like really like honing in on what you're doing and making it the best it can be before you start thinking bigger. And not not to say that you don't want to think big, but you know, I think there's kind of a natural cadence, and and that's kind of how I approached what we were doing. You know, it was like we have no idea if it was even gonna work, you know, and then once it did work, it was like, okay, we need to keep growing and scaling. And then there's just so much to that. We're, you know, having the right people in place, having, you know, systems and all that, which was completely out of my wheelhouse at the time, which I had to kind of learn as we went. My approach is like starting small and building something very intentionally and paying attention to what's working and what's not working and where you need to like shift and change to get to that end goal. I think it's very hard to work backwards. And I think that that is something that we see a lot because everybody wants to be an entrepreneur and it's like I want to make a bunch of money and start this thing. And of course, we've all heard it a million times. It's like if you're not doing something that you're really passionate about, it's really hard to work hard at it, you know, because it's like you have to really love it. And and for me, it was never about the money or growing it big, it was just about doing something that I truly enjoy doing every day, you know. So you kind of have to come from that starting point too. So it's, you know, it's a lot of things and they all have to work together. And and you know, not every idea is a good idea. And I talk to a lot of, you know, budding entrepreneurs, and sometimes I'm like, huh, I don't know how that's gonna work. And then, you know, and then even a great idea is a dime a dozen. It's like you have a great idea, but where's the execution? Who's gonna run it? How are you gonna run it? It's like there's just so many factors into being successful.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

Absolutely. No, and you know, that kind of makes me wonder also, because we hear so many success stories. I feel like nowadays, I mean, social media is so good about the highlight reels of everyone's life, you know, and that's great. I mean, I I love celebrating everybody, but I think there's not enough about like what it really takes, right? Like behind the scenes, you brought up like being a busy mom, and and there's so many things in the entrepreneurial journey that I wonder, you know, like where is that content and where's that information? So I'd love for you to kind of share some with us, like some more stories, maybe of like when you felt like, what am I doing? Or like, you know, where is this going?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

It's like every day. I mean, we

Scaling Mindset And Execution Reality

SPEAKER_01 8:52

used to joke that it was like running business is like playing whack-a-mole, you know, that carnival game. And someone actually bought us that in one of our offices because it's truly like, you know, you just don't know what's coming every day. And every day is usually full of a bunch of problems that you didn't plan for and some that you did. And I think in order to be a successful entrepreneur, you have to like enjoy that chaos and the craziness that's surely coming every day, especially when you're running a company, you know, in my case that had like 10,000 employees open seven days a week. There was really no break from it, you know. So it was just a constant stream of issues and problems and things that you kind of always have to be okay with with solving. And I'm such a natural problem solver, like, give me a problem and I'll, you know, try to figure out a solution. So I think that's probably the hardest part is like you have to have very thick skin for that. And I think that I developed that, you know, as we went. I mean, there's there's so many more stories. I mean, even from like, you know, as a consumer of dry bar, you know that like our maybe you know this, our our phones when you call to make an appointment aren't in the shops. You know, we had to have a call center, which was also like, I was like, I don't want to be in the call center business. I don't know anything about that. But we found that it was incredibly hard to answer the phones while you're in the shop. So we had to have someone off site answering the phones, which was a problem in many ways in and of itself. For me, my priority was the customer standing in front of me in the shop and making sure that experience was really great. And then, you know, I mean, gosh, the first week we opened Dry Bar, I had I told everybody, let the phones go to voicemail, we'll call people back, which is not great, but it was a better alternative, you know. So it was just like thing after thing after thing like that, and just they just kept coming up all the time. And, you know, not to mention like hiring stylists and training them and like, you know, you could find a great stylist who was an amazing hairstylist, but kind of didn't blend in with the like over-the-top customer service that I really wanted. And like the barrier to entry was like you have to be a really nice person and you have to be really like kind of drink the Kool-Aid with customer service and being like over-the-top kind. And I and I felt like while we were, you know, delivering great hair, it was the entire experience that I believe made Dredbar so special. It was like the way you were treated, the way you felt when you walked in. And and that took a lot of like curating and choreographing to get that right. None of it's easy, you know. It's it was all very intentional, very challenging, but very worth it, you know. And it it just, it was like, I mean, gosh, every day was was something. And, you know, in the early days too, the first couple of years, like I was basically, you know, manager, district manager. So I was fielding all of that in the beginning, which was fun, but it was, I mean, fun, like I say that loosely. Um, but I I'm also a big believer in like you kind of have to do every job as the owner so that you can, you know, inform on that and you really understand it. So it was just wild, you know, in those early days. And we were totally always understaffed, never had enough stylus, and and there's a good problem to have. We had so much demand and much less supply. So that was, I mean, it was just problem after problem, but you have to love it, you know, and and I did.

SPEAKER_00 11:50

No, that's I I love what you said about you have to kind of know, like you wanted to know how to do everything because this is something that's I think very, very unique in the entrepreneurial world where it's like you do have to know your business from the inside out. I've heard that many times from a lot of founders when I'd love for you to expand on that a little bit, right? Because I think we're living in such a fast culture right now where everything is like, give it to somebody else, give it to AI, give it to, you know what I mean? Like allocate, allocate, allocate. And it's like, where do you find that balance as a founder where you're like, okay, I have 24 hours in a day and I have to get everything done, but then still knowing your business down to the DNA, down to every single job and role. I mean, where do you think all of that really is anchored in, you know, especially when you're starting out?

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Well, I mean, I think that I'm gonna talk out of both sides of my mouth because I do think that you do need to have a great team and you do need to be able to delegate, you know, especially as a founder. I think a mistake that I certainly made and something I see people make is like you being as the founder or CEO or whatever, being kind of the bottleneck for everything, you can run into a lot of trouble that way because it slows things down. So, you know, the willingness to offload certain things, I actually do think is incredibly important. But that being said, you know, I think for me, I felt I would, you know, clean the shop, I'd clean the bathrooms, I'd wash hair. You know, I wanted to not only know how to do everything really well, but also be a a role model for the kind of environment I wanted to create, which was like we're all in this together and we all work together as a team, you know. So I had to, you know, kind

Chaos Behind The Curtain And Hiring

SPEAKER_01 13:20

of walk the walk as well as I always felt like that was important for my my team to see that like I'm not I'm not above doing anything. And I you have a unique perspective and understand everything that you're asking that I'm asking you to do, I I've done, you know. So I think that's important as an owner so that you really have an understanding of all the things that are happening, you know, within your company. But yeah, there's a real need also to, you know, make sure that you're, you know, you I I again I hear it all the time with founders who are just so overwhelmed with so much because we hold our company and our everything so precious, and we don't want anyone else, you know, to potentially mess something up or do it differently than we would. And and and I felt like that for years, you know, and eventually like had some coaching and realized that like I've got to let other people make mistakes and that's the way that they learn, and that's the way we grow, and that's the way that they feel really empowered and feel like you know they have some real skin in the game. So, you know, it's such a both and of like you gotta be okay with some people making mistakes and maybe not doing it the way you would. And and and even as like a you know, a CEO, especially the second time around for me, is like, you know, I really think of everything as like I'm here to serve my team, not vice versa. You know, it's like I I give my team a lot of autonomy and you know, a lot of like room to do what they need to do and try to be more of, you know, additive and and serving them instead of them serving me, which I think is a is a shift, you know, from like, you know, 10, 20 years ago, how how CEOs were and and and also trying to be really mindful of the hierarchy. You know, I always want people on my team who, you know, are kind of down to do whatever needs to be done. And that that just happens in an organization, you know, from people being understaffed or not having enough people or not having the right people. So it's such a mixed bag. And sorry, that was such a long answer.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

No, it's no, it's a wonderful answer. And I thank you for going into it because it is something like, you know, because I just wonder, because there's these brands that I I mean, dry bar became such a phenomenon, right? And you never get to look behind the scenes, you never get to understand like what is it that happens inside such a large company and such a large brand where things are moving so cohesively because that's what it looks like to consumers on the surface. Everything's so well put together. But like you said, you know, there's a lot going on in the background. One of my biggest questions for you, honestly, is just this idea that now we're going into this cancel culture, right? As a society with beauty brands. I've seen this a lot. And I don't know what your thoughts are on cancel culture, but I I worry a lot, you know, for new founders and new entrepreneurs because I feel like people have great, you know, like they come into beauty with this like really enthusiastic mindset and they want the best, they want to create the best, but then all of a sudden you do one thing and the internet is just gonna turn on you, you know, and they're gonna be like, I can't do with this rant. Like, how do you feel about that? Like, I mean, do you think it's a lot different than it was when you were starting out? Or I mean, what are your general views on that?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, I do think it's different because when you know Drybar started in 2010 and that's when Instagram started, you know. So we came into the world when it wasn't quite as like socially driven as it is now, you know, and and I've had things happen over the years, but yeah, I'm not a fan of cancel culture. You know, it's like when I think about founders and people who are that are trying to, you know, start a business and presumably to make something better or to put something out there that's really hard and vulnerable. And then, you know, to be canceled, why like maybe I'm just too old, you know, that I'm like, it's just so negative and toxic, you know, to be like, I'm gonna cancel a person. Like, you know, and and listen, like I probably am much more guarded than I would be, even though I I talk about a lot and I can be very vulnerable. And, you know, my book, The Messy Truth, is a very vulnerable depiction of my time growing dry bar and then all the shit that happened in my personal life. And I'm very open about that stuff, but I'm very closed-mouthed when it comes to like politics, religion, anything like that, because that to me is like when people get very upset. Of course, like I wish the world would be a better place if everybody could have their opinion and not have to go to like such a crazy height and where people are really take it so personally and get so mad. And it's like so, so for me, I just I kind of stay away from it because it's just so personal and so tender to people. But I I wish it didn't have to be that way, you know. I think that I I really have a lot of respect and give a lot of, you know, kudos to people who are putting themselves out there, putting their their brand out there and really giving it a shot. It's very hard, you know, to put yourself out there and um, you know, and I think we should be praising that, not, you know, not the other direction.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Yeah, no, I I couldn't agree more. And thank you for answering that because I think it's important to hear, you know, from from people who've done what you've done to hear that. Because I think I've I've seen this a lot and I'm not I'm not in it and I've not gone through it, but I know I've watched people go through this whole cancel phase of their brand, and it always breaks my heart because you pour so much of yourself into this, you know, and it's not just a project for people, it's their life, it's their savings, it's their, you know, everything. And then for the internet to just then turn on, I mean, it's just so disheartenable.

SPEAKER_01 18:22

You know, and and I think we just live in a day and age where you just also you have to be very aware of what you're doing. And, you know, and I mean, listen, I think self-awareness just as a practice as a human is really important. And, you know, and I am aware of the things that I say and I do, and and same for my brand and

Delegation Without Losing The DNA

SPEAKER_01 18:40

my company, and and and really do try to make sure that I'm not offending anybody. I personally just don't love conflict and don't want, you know, and and every now and again, if I get something, you know, some comment online or something negative, I just I I don't engage in it because I'm like, I'm not gonna have a fight with the person I don't even know. You know, and and you keep people around you that, you know, keep you honest and in things that are important to people. It's like, you know, I I try not to be completely dictated by it, but I also don't bury my hand and my head in the sand over it too. So it's an interesting kind of delicate balance of kind of walking that line, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And I was gonna actually ask you this about like the advisors that you bring on at a certain certain point in the growth of a business. Like, what is that vetting process really like where you're like, I need to be able to trust this person as like my right hand? What was that like for you? I mean, when you were at that stage where you're like, I need to bring in more people, but having that trust that you built in these people to guide you when you needed that guidance, you know?

SPEAKER_01 19:38

Well, I mean, it takes time. And we've certainly hired people, you know, early on in dry bar that weren't the right fit. And you kind of, you know, sometimes unfortunately you have to go, and not even unfortunately, it's like a it's such a learning, you know, to bring on people who you think are gonna be right and then they ultimately aren't. For me, I really rely on my gut and the way I feel about somebody. And I mean, you can call it a little woo-woo, but it's like somebody's energy is very important to me. And I feel like I can usually tell within minutes of meeting somebody if it's gonna work or not based on how they show up, how they talk. And it's it's like an intangible thing that I couldn't even explain to you how or why that works, you know. And I've gotten it wrong, you know. I mean, there's been people that we brought on that were like, I thought this is gonna work, but this isn't gonna work, you know? And so I think it's first of all being very discerning and and really trusting your gut. Like I've never been a big resume person. Like, I of course I want to know someone's experience and what they've done, but I it's more about like the in-person conversation, you know, really understanding where they're coming from, how passionate they are about what we're doing. And not everybody's like that. And sometimes it's just a chemistry thing and it and it doesn't fit and that and that's okay. And you have to kind of learn. And I think, again, it's really trusting your gut about people and putting your ego aside, you know, especially as a founder. It's like, and that's a tough one for me, you know. It's like, you know, my name's on my brand. And so it's important for me to like I, you know, I there it's a per it's a personal thing too. So I want to make sure anybody who's advising me or on my team believes in my vision, and then, you know, and then I can let them run with it, you know. But it's like it's not always easy and things change. And I and you know, a lot of the people that have worked for me over the years, you know, they were ready to try something different. And I always had my blessing. And even in like, you know, like I mentioned, we had up to 10,000 employees at one point at Dry Bar, and, you know, most of those were stylists. And my team used to be like, you know, we're we're training an industry here, which we were. And a lot of times we would train somebody, they'd work for us for less than a year and then they'd move on to something else. And my team would be so frustrated because it's like we spent so much time on this person training them. And and I never felt that way. I was like, I was like, I feel like it's karmically very good. You know, they've worked for us, they've given a lot of like time and energy to us, and now they're going and taking the skill that we gave to them and bringing it out into the world. And I felt like it was all great, you know. And and and I think that that's part of like not holding anything too precious and like letting people like continue to evolve and and being a small part of their journey always. Really good to me, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

Yeah, no, I can I can definitely. I mean, you guys created a huge movement, you know, and I think everybody like felt the vibes, you know. And I think that's it's like it's always the vibes at the end of the day with any brand, anything, right? We that's why we buy what we buy, and I mean, with messy, this is this is why I love the way you've gone about your journey as just somebody watching from the outside, because you went from this like super like blowout, beautiful hair that's like styled and perfect. Now you're doing messy, where it's all about just own it, you know. How is that from a like that entrepreneur perspective of like you're doing a full 180 now, you know, with the brand and the you know, the whole messaging.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Well, yeah, I mean, and it wasn't like premeditated, it wasn't like five years ago I thought, you know, I'm gonna create a brand that's like kind of the opposite of a blowout. It really happened very organically and naturally for me. And largely, you know, when COVID hit and we we all stopped going anywhere. Like I had and I just sold dry bar and I kind of took a break from the blowout just because I wasn't going anywhere and was like really trying to kind of embrace my true texture, my waves. And was and and during that time when I was kind of laying off the heat a little bit, my hair grew and got healthier. And it just, I was like, huh, you know, it's like maybe there's something here, you know. And I think there's definitely been a movement in like air dry hair and really it's the preservation of our hair, you know, it's like as great as driver I was, and I still love a blowout, you know, it did kind of wreak havoc on my hair for many years because I was doing so much blowouts and so much heat on my hair that I just as you know, somebody who's very obsessed with hair in all capacities, I was like, there's gotta be a way to like learn to love my hair as it is versus like trying to manipulate it into some other version. And it was really during COVID that I started like experimenting with it, which is largely, you know, how I created our first product, which is our rough dry cream. And it's the soft hold that I couldn't find. And, you know, for me, I like the way I did my hair today. It's like I rough dry it, put the product in, and then twist pieces and let it dry. If I didn't do that, my hair would be very frizzy and crazy. So there is still like for me, I can't just air dry my hair. It doesn't look good, it dries very frizzy. I have I had to figure out something to do, which obviously I didn't invent twisting hair, but the very specific way I do it really, you know, works for me. And like, you know, my hair, although messy and tussled right now, it's not frizzy. And that's something I was trying to figure out. And once I started to embrace that and started to really love it, you know, because if my hair dries naturally, it also dries very, very curly. So I rough dry it to kind of stretch it out. And and again, as a hairstylist, like I know a lot of tricks. And so I in creating messy, I wanted to create techniques. I'll also put my hair in braids when it's damp, and then let it, you know, those. So there's tons of different ways, you know, you can go about it, but you do need really good product to do it. And and you know, it's just it's just like anything else. Like we evolve, or you know, for me, I I equate it a lot to like fashion. It's like, you know, if you watch fashion trends, like everything kind of comes full circle again and again and again, right? It's like trends come back from like, you know, skinny jeans to, you know, yeah, it's always recycled. It's always recycled, like flare jeans, bell bottoms, low waist, high rise, like it all, you know, kind of comes back over and over again. And you know, I think that's the same thing with hair. There's so much, there's so much you can do with it if you're willing to change it up a little bit. You know, and then that's more from like the I don't know, spiritual, emotional side of it, you know, it's yes, I love that side. Yeah, you know, it's like I I can't tell you how many women I talked to who were like, you know, my daughter is watching me basically boycott my waves and just try to get this

Cancel Culture And Founder Guardrails

SPEAKER_01 25:35

like perfect hair, and she's got waves, and now she wants to get rid of them because, you know, we're watching our moms do this. And so trying to get girls, women, whatever comfortable with the hair that they have. I mean, that's one of our big taglines at Messi, is like love, you know, love, embrace the hair that you have, but you need products and techniques to support that as well. But, you know, I think that there's like kind of owning the hair that we have and like embracing it. And and also, like for the record, that you know, I do still get blowouts sometimes. Like sometimes I feel like having my hair straight and blown out, you know, but most of the time I prefer it like this. It's a lot less maintenance, it's a lot easier to do, it's a lot healthier, you know. But sometimes the mood strikes where I want a smooth blowout, you know? And so and so for me with messy, it's like just giving women another avenue, another option, you know, to embrace their hair versus kind of manipulating it. And and, you know, I get more confluence on my hair now than I ever have, you know. So it's just really it looks great.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

I mean, you know, honestly, like I love dry bar, like don't get me wrong, but I wish Messi came out first because I honestly I was in medical school and I was always struggling. Like I don't have wavy hair like you, like it has a little bit of wave in it, but I'm literally that person as well. Where it's like I get out of the shower, I'm like, just give me something to put in it, you know, like give me something and let me go about my day. And I remember like even for me as a consumer that was just trying to like do my best, it was like I was looking around and I'm like, guys, when are we gonna have products that I can just be like, I'm grabbing this one thing, it's gonna work for me. I don't have to think about it, you know? And then also not feel so like, like, I don't know, behind the curve, right? With like how I keep my hair and like how I upkeep it. I feel like women get judged so much on our hair, which has always bothered me. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah. It's been like kind of annoying. But like having that always in the back of your mind, but then knowing you're too busy, like I'm too busy. Like I don't have time for curling it, I don't have time to straighten it. And then I don't know, it's it is that spiritual.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Well, and especially with like straight hair, like you said, your hair is mostly straight with a little bend. It's like I can't tell you how many of my friends who have that kind of hair who are like, how do you get it? What do you do? It's like I always tell people, like, get it like 50 to 60 percent dry and then just put it in two braids with product, you know, rough dry cream in it, and then let it dry and take it out, and you'll have these beautiful, effortless waves that you didn't really have to do much for, you know, and that takes you two minutes, you know. For me, I twist my hair when it's damp, 50 to 60 percent dry, and then I don't touch it until it's dry, and then you shake it out because it's essentially like doing the work more or less that like a curling iron would do, because you are still manipulating the hair, you're just twisting it into place while it's wet, and then the way hair dries is the way it stays, you know. So if it dries in the twist, once it's dry, you you still have that bend, you know. And but if you have very, very straight hair, I always tell girls to put it in a braid because it the twist won't stay in because your hair won't hold them, you know. And we're talking about like a less than five minute routine in your hair, which I think is to your point of not wanting to spend a lot of time on your hair is like a really nice alternative to the blow drying and the curling and all the other things that take a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yeah, no, and also like I feel like it just gives you so much flexibility in the way that you're able to like maintain your everyday look. I feel like there was a huge narrative for a long time in the beauty industry where it was like you're either putting in time or you're just not doing anything, you know, with beauty. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

And we want to be like in the middle, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:49

And that's why I love that you're creating this brand that you've created it because it's we need more of that. I think there needs to be like a megaphone with founders going around and saying, we don't have to have extremes, let's do it in the middle and let's find real solutions, you know. And I know it's like people always say, like, oh, beauty is like vanity, and it's like all these, and it's like it's not, it's really about how you are able to show up in your day-to-day, you know, and like it's so.

SPEAKER_01 29:13

I mean, the way we feel on the outside largely affects how we feel on the inside, and vice versa, you know, which is also why all of our products have mantras, like I am enough and I am unbreakable, and I can begin again. Like feeling that way on the inside and matching it on the outside is is really important, you know. And and for me, it's like I've really embraced this type of hair, and it's so much easier. And I feel like very light and free. And it's just I look at like Mary Kate and Ashley Olson. Like they've always had this like very effortless, wavy, very undone hair. And I've always loved it. And I remember being like, how do they get their hair to look like that? You know, and I know they're a hairstylist and they don't like getting blowouts, you know, they like their natural texture, and you know, and and to your point, I think that that's like a nice middle ground. And even like my hair, when it's when it feels too curly, like I'll wrap it up and put it in a bun because it'll straighten it out. There's just so much you can do. And I feel like I can do a lot more with my hair when it's wavy that I just love it. To me, it feels like a version of myself that I'm most comfortable in.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

Absolutely. Yeah, I like that you said that like you can do so much because I remember when texturizer sprays first like became big, you know, and I was like so hyped. I was like, yes, you know, like you can because I have that straight hair and I was like, oh, I can just spray this in. It's gonna look PC and like, you know what I mean? That messy look. And I was like, this is great, you know. And it was like a revolutionary moment for me personally as a consumer, I'm not gonna lie. But I mean, that's kind of what that's what messy reminds me of is it's like you're discovering the fun of hair. And I that's like for me, beauty, that's what it's supposed to be. And I would love I kind of want you to speak a little bit more on this, if you don't mind, about this idea of like how right now, and I feel like this, but then again, my opinion, I mean, take it with grandsol for everyone listening, is that I feel like founders put so much effort into figuring out, like, well, what's

Trusting Your Gut On Key Hires

SPEAKER_00 30:56

our messaging and what's our demographic and like where what are we trying to say to the world? Where do you think that balance is from like just doing stuff that's fun and putting the fun back into like building a brand, creating that message, and then also just like, you know what I mean? Like narrating that entire thing to the point of like you're telling people what to think.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Well, I mean, it's interesting. It's like I for my brand, you know, with with Messi, it's like I think I have those women who've loved and grew up with dry bar. You know, I mean, dry bar is 16 years old now. So like I meet girls all the time who are like, you know, in their late 20s who were going to dry bar when they were like in high school, you know. And yeah, you know, I to your point, I I don't want to pigeonhole anybody into any category. And, you know, I really do think messy works for all hair types and textures. So we have that going to us. But, you know, I mean, and and the messaging is interesting, you know, it's like even though the brand is called Messi, it's like, you know, and people, you know, it's like I'm trying to get people to embrace, you know, not only the messier side of their hair, the messier side of life, and to just, you know, keep things real. So I I think messaging is important um and having like a very clear brand DNA of what you're trying to do. And and also similar to dry bar with messy, like I'm also not trying to be everything to everybody, you know, it's like you might embrace this and love it, you know, or you might not. But I also like have to kind of stay true to like the ethos of the brand, which is like embracing the hair that you have, which by the way, our rough dry cream that's great for executing curls like mine is is also like it has heat protected in it. It's a great cream if you're gonna blow dry your hair too. So I'm aware of that. And I don't also want to like alienate anybody, but the messaging is very clear, you know, that like we're into messy, sexy, like, you know, kind of effortless hair. And that's that's that's really kind of what we stand for. And I do think it's important to have a strong point of view, especially in a category like hair or makeup or skin. It's like there's just a sea of products out there. So I think in order, you know, back to like what we were talking about at the beginning of like dry bars being so unique, it's like we didn't invent blowouts, but we created, you know, a whole brand and experience around blowouts, you know, it's like to stand out in especially in the beauty world, you know, it's like you have to do something that's different and unique from both a product standpoint and from a messaging standpoint, and staying really true to that, not getting to like again, I'm not trying to do everything. And with the same with dry bar, I was like, I just wanted to focus on blowouts. We could have sold women a lot of other things, but to me, it was like kind of watering down the brand, you know, which I didn't want to do. And I think I come from messy with the same point of view. It's like we're really trying to get women to love and embrace this kind of like messier, less filtered, less highlight real version of themselves and and learn to really love it. So that's I feel like that's really important versus like a lot of hair product lines that are out there that are really trying to change and manipulate your hair into something it's not. I mean, there's a place for everything though, you know? It's like it's you know, it's just kind of where you're at.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

No, I I really I feel you on that because and part of the reason I asked you this is exactly what you said at the end, where it's like I feel like there's a lot of like science-based brands that are like focusing so hard on the science. Sometimes I feel like it gets preachy. For example, hair loss. Like I'll I'll just use that as an example. Like, hair loss is a serious issue for a lot of people and it's hard and it's like you know, it's like a personal journey, as you know. But then sometimes I'll see a brand like super hardcore going into the science, which is great, but it almost comes off almost as like you're telling me what I need to do to fix a problem, which is not universally the same for everybody. And I think that's why I kind of wanted to ask you that question was because I get branding and I get like giving narratives to people, but then where I get lost as a consumer is where somebody goes, Well, this is the fix and this is your ultimate

Messi Origins And No Heat Techniques

SPEAKER_00 34:35

end all be all, and you should buy the brand because of that. So, you know, and I get lost in all of that because I'm like, I love science, I'm the biggest geek when it comes to understanding hair health and beauty and all that.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

But when you are just like, you know, like dying on this hill of like this is it or nothing else, yeah, you know, for well, I mean it's like you think about you know, any products that you use from like makeup and skincare and hair care products, it's like, no, you should not just buy messy. Like there's so many great product lines out there, and and I agree with you. It's like whatever, you know, your specific needs are, and there's a lot of different brands. Like, I think about all the different skincare and all the different makeup I use from like a million different brands, you know. It's like you you, you know, you have to figure out what works for you and make and kind of piece it together. And it's interesting, you know. I mean, some things like I buy into that brands are talking about, and some things like I'm like I I'm similar with the science. Like, I for for me, like I'll never be a science-y brand. I while I I develop all the products and I get my team's feedback and and all of that too, but it's just not my brain, you know. It's like I don't think about the science, like I think about how things work, how things smell, how they feel in my hair. And then I depend on the labs that I work with to help make sure that the product's good and and there and there's a lot to choose from as a consumer. So I think it's a very personal choice, you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Absolutely. No, it really is a very personal choice. I think I mean, I think that's why I like I appreciate where you're going with Messi and what you're creating with it because it's easy, it's easy to understand, it's easy to pick up and use. You don't have to like my brain's gonna hurt at the end of the day trying to figure trying to figure out like where in my hair care routine does this fit in, that kind of thing. I mean, I there's nothing wrong with that either, you know, but yeah, it's easy. And that's why I wanted to ask you so much about the entrepreneurial side, because I think that's where I get lost when I think about what founders have to do, the homework they have to do to figure out what's going to resonate with people, you know, at the end of the day. And like, where is that line between easy to understand and I'm trying to force you to understand this so that you buy my product?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

That kind of yeah, yeah. It's I mean, it's tough, you know. It's like there's, I mean, gosh, I don't even know if I know the answer to that question. You know, it's like for me, it's I think obviously having been in and around hair as long as I have, and as I started to like dream up this idea for messy, you know, I I would talk to people and just kind of get like initial, like, what do people think? What are people saying? And I pay very close attention to what's going on in hair trends. And, you know, obviously, you know, it's no secret that air drying and all of that has become more popular and people, women are going away because like you mentioned hair loss. And maybe it's the age that I'm at, I'm 51. And, you know, women of you know, my age are, you know, going through menopause and perimenopause, and they're starting to like lose their hair. And there's, you know, and even like you know, I've heard that like, you know, GLP1s are causing hair loss. I mean, oh yeah, you know, so I think that there is a desire that has come out in the last few years, at least that I've noticed, where women are trying to take it easier on their hair, you know, not dissimilar to like skincare products and like everything we do for our skin from you know, regular facials and retinol. Like I only discovered dermaplaning about five years ago and was like, this is the best thing I've ever done. And not not everybody agrees with that, you know. So it's like, but but to answer your question, you know, it's like I've been very embedded in the hair world for a very long time. And and I like to think that I, you know, it's it's really interesting when I hear my team talk about messy or about me, and and they're like, you know, they'll say things like, you know, Allie has, you know, very unique way of like knowing what the consumer wants. And in my mind, I'm like, not really. Like, I don't, I don't think that I do, but there, you know, it's like we all have our superpowers, you know, and I think that I do really have with like a deep understanding of hair and trends and what's happening. And of course, it's not always for everyone, but that is like, you know, listen, I think that we all have like our things that we're really good at. And for me, that's largely been hair, and that's I've really trusted my gut. And then, you know, when I called Sephora and said, I have this idea for a product line, and they they loved it. It's like there's some validation. And when I started talking to people about this product line, everyone got very excited about it. So it's like, okay, maybe I'm on the right track here. You know, I'm not like so bullish that I like, I'm like, I don't care what anybody thinks. Like, I'm I do take other people's feedback and I do listen to what people say and I do pay attention to how people respond to the brand. And we're always like tinkering and changing things to make more sense. You know, it's like even right now, we're in the process of changing a couple things like on our packaging. It's like we're always paying attention, but not allowing it to completely dictate either, you know. And I think that that's a fine line that you walk as a CEO or founder when you're like, I don't want to go away too much, but I also want to be cognizant and aware of what is being talked about, what people are liking, what people are not liking. You know, I'm not a big like I hate focus groups, like I'm not a big like decision by, you know, committee kind of person, but I do take opinions of people I trust very seriously.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

No, it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense. And I I guess like I my my final question really for you is if there was one thing that you wish somebody had told you about being a founder, being an entrepreneur, learning to scale a brand, what do you think that one thing would be, especially for someone who's younger? Because I worry about Gen Z. I'm not gonna lie. Like I genuinely I worry.

SPEAKER_01 39:37

You know, I don't, I don't know. For me, like I always came at this with a very like passion for what you're doing. I think to your point, Gen Z is like there is a lot of like everybody just wants to own their own business. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but I do think that like even the advice I give my children who are 19 and 21, and they're very much in their throes of like trying to figure out what they want to do with their lives, it's it's a really tricky time, as I'm sure you remember, you know. And I always tell them I'm like, just do what you like and keep finding out what you don't like. I don't know that if I had to do it again, I would do it all that differently. You know, it's like I had so many jobs in my 20s, I tried so many careers, I tried other businesses, I did a lot of things, and I think all of those things very uniquely prepared me to do what I ultimately did with dry bar. Had I not had a lot of the experiences that I had, there would have definitely been holes. And there were plenty of holes and things that I had to learn. I didn't go to college, I didn't have a business degree, I didn't know a lot about a lot back then, which I which I learned on the job, but I did learn a lot that prepared me for what I ultimately did. So to answer your question is like go try a bunch of shit and go make a bunch of mistakes and fail and do all the things to learn what you like, what you don't like, what you can tolerate, what you can't tolerate, you know, versus like even in the you know, the case of you know, my son, I'm like who's 21. I'm like, go try

Advice For Gen Z And Closing

SPEAKER_01 40:55

and my God, my 19-year-old too. Like we were just I the amount of conversations I'm in right now with my kids around like what they want to do, you know, I'm like, just go try it. Like, go try a bunch of stuff and go fail and go mess up and see what you like and don't like, and versus like, I gotta start a business today and I gotta be rich in five years, you know. It's like that's the other thing I feel pretty strongly about. It's like I've never come at any business or any idea from like I'm doing this to make make a bunch of money. Like I always come at it from like I'm doing this to feel fulfilled and to enjoy my life, you know? And I think that's the more important starting point, which to your point, Gen Z might be missing a little bit, you know, that there's so much online and you see these like founders or creators who are making like so much money so fast, and then everyone's trying to do that, you know. It's like, and not to say, like, of course, I like money and buying things and living a nice life, but ultimately it's like how I feel, what I'm doing every day, the energy that I have around what I'm doing is much, much more important. So that's where I would tell people, you know, to start.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

I love that. I think a lot more like younger, not only younger, but everybody needs to think on that a little bit more. I heard that from when we were in, you know, going into medicine. Every everyone needs to tell me that. Like, don't go into medicine because you think it makes money, because it doesn't. Like you're gonna be screwed. And I feel like that really resonates, you know, um on that level for me. So but thank you so much, Ellie. This was amazing. You're amazing. I mean, honestly, thank you. Like what you've created, what you continue to create is so inspiring, like genuinely. So yeah, no, really, like rooting you on. And thank you. For everyone listening, if you haven't tried Messi, you need to go try Messi. Uh, everything is linked in the show notes. Please leave your comments and thank you so much. Thank you.