Healthy Prophetic Community

This month, our teaching is from John Thomas (Streams Ministries) and is about the importance of a 'Healthy Prophetic Community.' Have a listen in as Alan McWilliam (Cairn Movement), Charity Bowman-Webb (Streams Ministries, Streams Creative House) and Faith Brennan (community of Aidan and Hilda) chat about the teaching from their own perspectives.

Let's listen together and journey towards the fivefold ministry working together in synergy.

Transcript

Hi, this is Alan McWilliams and this is Charity Bowman-Webb and we want to welcome you to the Synergy Sessions. This month our teaching is by John Thomas, President of Streams Ministries International and he's speaking about healthy and mature prophetic communities and we're really looking forward to chatting about this teaching afterwards. It's amazing when you when you find yourself in the middle of a plan that you didn't make.We've been taught too many times how to make our own plans and it's really good to have a plan as long as the plan is getting you to the destination that someone else set. The problem is when you set your own destination and if you're willing to leave that open to him and follow the things that he opens up for you, you will find yourself in places that you can't imagine and the only way that you will ever get to tomorrow is if you're faithful in today. You're not going to find yourself walking in your destiny by being faithful in a destiny that you're not walking in.You actually have to be faithful where you're at to be able to get to where you're going. If you're not being faithful and serving where you're at right now with what you have right now, you will never fulfill your destiny because whether or not you fulfill the destiny that you've been given is up to you. The destiny has been written but you get to choose whether or not you're going to walk the path and too many times we're blaming the things that happen in our lives and the things that we're are seeing and the things that we're not seeing on ourselves on God, excuse me, and on other people instead of taking responsibility for our own choices.For what we've put into what God has given us, what are we doing with what God has given us? What are we doing with what he has actually put in our hands right now? What do you have in your hands? Moses didn't think he had much. He had a piece of wood. God said, that's enough.Go set my people free. We're waiting until somebody puts something more in our hands before we go and do what we've been told to do. We're waiting until someone recognizes what we have and how great we are before we fulfill what he's put inside of us and it never works that way.There's a cry right now for people that know how to serve and that are willing to be faithful. We talk a lot about favor and we want to have favor with God and favor with man. Proverbs chapter three actually gives us the secret.If you want to grow in favor with God and favor with man, it says this. It says, never let faithfulness and loyalty leave you. Bind them around your neck.Write them on the tablet of your heart for then you will find favor with God and with man. And then there's something about loyalty and faithfulness that we have not understood. And when we begin to press into loyalty and faithfulness above all else, we will find ourselves receiving the favor that we were wanting.We too often are waiting for someone else to be faithful to us before we're faithful to them. When Donna and I moved to Texas, we found it difficult to create relationships. We were looking for people to reach out to us like people did here because we'd already sewn into relationships here.We had a lot of relationships. So people, hey, you want to hang out? And that was great. And we get down there and nobody's asking if they can hang out.We realize that we've got to be a friend before we expect somebody to be a friend. That it's on our side to do that, not wait for someone else to do it. There are some beautiful things that God has promised those of us that are in this room right now.Will you fulfill them? He's committed. He'll do his part. The question comes when things get difficult because it's real easy to be faithful when everything's easy and everybody likes us.It's really good to be loyal to your friend. It's really hard to be loyal when your friend stabs you in your back. And yet it was David's loyalty to Saul that got him the crown, but it's not right.Well, yeah, I know. That's why Jesus went to the cross. It's not right.He wasn't supposed to, I mean, it was not right for him to die. That's how you know real power for transformation of a situation is released when you submit to what's not right because God is calling you to. The power of the cross was in Jesus's submission to injustice.And because he submitted to injustice, that which was unjust had to be broken. If he would have fought for what he could have fought for, there would not have been power released. There's an invitation for a couple of you to let go of the bitterness of yesterday, to let go of the disappointments that held you back and what they did and what they didn't do and how they responded and how they didn't respond.And when you let go, actually let go, you're going to find yourself fast-tracking. You'll find that the mountain that you've been circling will end up behind you instead of constantly right next to you. You will find yourself walking into a land filled with giants that are supposed to be your bread.And the first part is to let go. The Egyptians, excuse me, the Israelites had such a hard time letting go because even though they were slaves in Egypt, they had some comforts and they kept on dreaming of the comforts of slavery because they couldn't handle the responsibility of freedom. So they wanted someone else to be responsible for them so that they didn't have to take responsibility for their own destiny.Didn't come planning on sharing this. I mean, you saw my notes. He could prove it.It's right here. But if you will receive it for those that need it, that may, that little five minutes may have been the most important message you'll hear in this decade. So let's talk a little bit about building a prophetic community.Since we kind of started down that road to some extent, there's this call that's on the heart of God to begin to raise up prophetic communities. And when I'm talking about a prophetic community, I'm not talking about an unbalanced people. I'm talking about a people that actually hear the voice of God where the prophetic is a part of what they do, not everything they do.Anytime that you get a church that's completely focused on any one of the ascension gifts, they will always be off balanced. There's no way that a singular focus can create the mature expression of Jesus Christ. It must have all five.And when it has all five, you can call it a prophetic community, you can call it an apostolic community, you can call it an evangelistic community, you can call it a shepherding community, you can call it a teaching community, and you'll be right with all of them. Because when it's done right, you're not choosing one over the other. You actually have a balance.And so you focus on whatever one that you happen to be called to. So let me say that up front, because I don't want to create this picture when I talk about prophetic community of a bunch of prophets that get together and do nothing but revelate. That's not the goal of a prophetic community.A healthy prophetic community is going to be a community that is part of an integral part of a local body committed to a local body that is helping that and serving that local body so that it can accomplish the purpose that it's been given. They're going to be doing outreach and lives are going to be coming into the kingdom. Souls will be saved.They will actually represent Christ because the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus. And if people aren't coming to Jesus, the spirit of prophecy is not being communicated well. They'll have a reputation for wisdom and for providing real practical help.It'll be a place where diversity is celebrated. And it's not going to be a place where everybody is scared of the next five years, because the antichrist is coming in the three and a half years of judgment have started. They're going to be a community that is full of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because that's what the kingdom looks like.Where we don't get under the things that are coming, even when those things are coming. Now that's a picture of a prophetic community, but I want to start to give you some pointers on a corporate way of us growing and an individual way of you growing to being more mature and expressing the prophetic. My first point is this, that a mature prophetic people or a mature prophetic person will always value character over gifting.They will always put that above gifting. They'll be more impressed by a faithful marriage and a loving relationship with children and faithfulness in the workplace than they will by somebody's vision or encounter. They'll be more impressed by their self-control and their peace and their joy, their kindness, their goodness, their faithfulness, their gentleness, than they will their latest dream or their latest vision.A healthy prophetic community is looking more for the image of Christ than mere information that comes in some supernatural way, because not all information that comes in supernatural way, and I'm being very careful not to call it revelation. Not all of it is from God, and the only way to tell whether or not it's from God is whether it carries the character of Christ, because if it does not carry the character of Christ, it is not from God, however astounding it may be, whatever sign it may bring. First Corinthians chapter 13 is a beautiful verse, and if you have your Bibles, you can turn here with me.First Corinthians chapter 13 is, you know, sometimes has been thought of like a parentheses between chapter 12 and chapter 14. Chapter 12, Paul's talking about the prophetic, and he's talking about spiritual gifts, and the word of knowledge, and the word of wisdom, and healing, and faith, and all these beautiful things, and what it looks like, and then he takes a break and talks about love, and then he comes back in chapter 14 and begins talking about tongues, and prophecy, and takes it a little bit further. It's not a break, it's actually the high point of his argument as to what really spiritual people look like.Really spiritual people look like this. He says, if I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I have not love, I'm a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have prophetic powers and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but I have not love, I gain nothing. As we're seeking to grow in the prophetic and grow in our ability to receive and have these encounters, we should even more seek to grow in our love, in our ability to relate to other people in a healthy way. Because love, it's not some words that we put on a hallmark card, it's flesh.It's fleshed out in real relationships, and how we interact, how we respond to criticism, how we respond to conflict, how we respond to disappointment, that is where love shows up. Love that's not tested is not love. I've done this a few different times.A young couple, they're talking about getting married and they come up and they're talking about how great everything is, and my first question is, have you fought yet? Oh no, we don't fight. Well, when you've fought, come back. Because you have no idea if you love each other until you disagree.You have no idea if you love the person next to you until you disagree. That's when love is actually tested. How do you respond when that happens? That is one of the key things, and you know, this idea of loving well, it's not something that happens naturally.We didn't grow up in a home, 99.99% of us. I mean, it's possible that there's some human being somewhere on the world, maybe rare, that actually grew up in a home that perfectly displayed love, conflict resolution, and communication in a healthy way. But I just don't think that that's the norm, which means that we have to learn how to love well, that we need to practice communication, conflict resolution, that there's things that we need to change about the way that we do life to be able to love well.You see, fruit is grown, but gifts are given. You can't tell how mature someone is by how big their gift is. They had nothing to do with it.It's the giver that is qualified by the gift, not the receiver. Is this making sense? We have got to get that because we get too impressed with people because they have a big gift. So, they have a big heart.I've met a lot of gifted people, a lot of gifted people that don't know God. Crazy gifting, seeing angels, seeing atmospheres, going into visions, having dreams, telling people the future and are right, and don't have a relationship with God, don't want to have a relationship with God. Or some that use the word God, but define it in a very weird way, talking about how the Bible is not as important at the revelation that they give because some of the Bible is just history, and how Jesus isn't really God, that that was a misunderstanding, that there's any way that you really want to get to heaven as long as your spiritual and you have experiences is fine.Your experience is proof that God has accepted you. And that deception is alive and well, not just outside of the church, it's alive and well in the church. And we have people that carry their gifts as a badge that says, well, you can't challenge me, you can't question me, you can't disciple me, I'm more gifted than you are.Well, if your gift's too big for the church, then get out of it until you can see correctly because you're wrong, it's not. If you think that your gift's too big for the church, it's because you're not part of the church, because you have to be joined to the head to be a part of the body. This is clothing, it's not part of the body, it's not joined to the head.It hangs around and it adorns, but tomorrow I'll be wearing something else. You have to be joined to the head to be a part of the body. So number one, mature prophetic voices will value character over gifts.Number two, mature prophetic voices don't compare gifts. Let's go to 2 Corinthians. 2 Corinthians chapter 10.It's in this passage where Paul is having to defend himself because there's this group of people that he'd sown his life into, he had taught, he'd discipled, he'd spent time with, and there were these people that were coming around and telling everybody about how gifted they were, how great their visions were, and their encounters were, and that they should be listening to them and not Paul, because he doesn't have the same level of encounter that they've had. This is the book of 2 Corinthians. If you read through it, it would be very helpful, and pay attention to that dynamic.You'll see that happen. But Paul, in trying to help the Corinthians to defend their hearts against what was going on, he says this in 2 Corinthians chapter 10 and verse 12. Not that we dare to classify or compare ourselves with some of those who are commending themselves, but when they measure themselves by one another and compare themselves with one another, they are without understanding.Now our translators are just too nice. You look at the Greek, Paul says they're ignorant. People that do that's just dumb.They have no wisdom operating. So trying to compare, oh this gift is bigger than this gift. Now I've heard people make comments like this, oh we need to really pay attention to all the revelation that comes from this ministry, because this is a major prophet ministry, but this is just a minor prophet ministry.It's not as important. It's a very funny saying, because when you take a look at why did they call some major prophets and minor prophets in the scripture, it's because the major prophets wrote longer books, not because they had bigger gifts. It had nothing to do with the importance, it had to do with how much writing came out of them.And so that concept actually makes no sense whatsoever. We need to stop comparing or classifying ourselves based on gifting, because when we begin to compare prophetic gifts or revelations or prophetic versus non-prophetic, it begins to create this separation. It begins to create this elitism, which is the number one problem that prophetic communities have had in the whole history of the church.It started in the second century with the monotonous, who were this, they called themselves the new light. They began to have these encounters and were pressing into revelation and pressing in for encounters, and God began to move. They were having great encounters.They were beginning to operate in some beautiful giftings, and many people were helped, but over time they began to compare themselves with the other people that weren't pressing in for these giftings, and then they began to stop receiving input from ones that weren't, and their theology got so messed up that they got kicked out of the church, because they were teaching things as if they were true that were in violation of the clear teaching of scripture. Now, that's not new, and that's not gone. That's happening today.But when we begin to compare the gifted versus the non-gifted, we put ourselves in a place where we can't receive the gift that other people have, because what we're really saying, I mean, it's not a difference of whether they're gifted or not. It's just that their gift doesn't look like our gift. I mean, Paul started out earlier talking about different churches have their own calling.They have their own gifting. When we try to say that another church isn't a good enough church because they're not like our church, it's just saying that my gift is better than their gift. I prefer prophecy, and so that's a better gift than teaching, and so my church is better than their church.If they would come to a full revelation, they would finally get it. It's comparing gifts, and that whenever we begin to separate ourselves, the body does get affected, but we get affected a lot worse. When you take a look at the passages, there's three major passages.Now, there's multiple passages that talk about spiritual gifts. There's three major passages where gifts have a period where they're talked about for a long extended teaching on gifts. All three of them, the same metaphor is used, the idea of a body having many different members.1 Corinthians 12, Romans chapter 12, Ephesians chapter 4, all three of them use this metaphor of a body. I mean, how many of you want to cut your foot off because you like your hand better, or you want to cut your brain out because you like your heart better? We try to do that in the church all the time. I like my heart better, so I'm going to cut my brain out, or I like my brain better, so I'm going to cut my heart out.They're too intellectual. They're too emotional. They're too... See, whenever we allow ourselves to get into that place, we actually separate ourselves from the flow of grace that comes from the gift that they have, because they have something that adds to us so that we become a whole body.And unless we get all of it together, we will never be a mature expression of Jesus Christ in the earth. We need the grace that's coming from them, from the different gifts. They don't have the same emphasis as we do.They're not supposed to. They're supposed to have a different emphasis. They're a different person.God didn't create you the same as anybody else. I mean, the God that created snowflakes so that every snowflake that ever was is different than any other snowflake so that they can melt has a love for diversity. We've got to go after that love, that desire.And when you begin to stop comparing how they're different and begin to look for what they have in Christ, you can begin to grow and receive the grace that's on them so that you become more mature. You begin to grow. So this elitism is such a major issue.Let's look at one more passage on this, and we'll move to our next point. Romans chapter 16. Romans chapter 16 verses 17 and 18.It says, I appeal to you brothers to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you've been taught. What doctrine? The doctrine that you're all one body. This is the culmination of Romans chapter 12 where he begins to give a very practical outtake.This is what you do based off of the doctrine that he gave in Romans chapter 1 through 11. And he begins to, here's your practical application. Starting in verse 12, he starts talking about the body.We're all different, but we're all members of one body. And he culminates with this. I appeal to you brothers, watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you've been taught.Avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own appetites. And by smooth talk and flattery, they deceive the hearts of the naive.When you begin to get around someone that begins to create divisions and begins to separate parts of the body of Christ from other parts of the body of Christ, run. Have nothing to do with their teaching, but they've got some good stuff. Great.It will kill you. It's poison. Read the Bible.Have nothing to do with them. Not have, well, be careful when you're around them. Have nothing to do with them.Don't receive from people like that. They're going to hurt you. This is the cry of Paul to the people that he loved.This is a cry that we need in the church again. We're beginning to cry out for unity. Our king, our great high priest who passed through the heavens, he is the high priest.And just like the earthly high priest, when he went into the earthly tabernacle, he had to carry this breastplate and these shoulder stones. And on the breastplate, there was 12 stones. It had Zebulun, it had Naphtali, and it had Dan, it had Joseph, it had Asher, and I keep on going.All the tribes of Israel, our great high priest, our king, he goes into the tabernacle in heaven, he still has a breastplate on. And it says Methodist, Congregationalist, Presbyterian, Catholic, Lutheran, non-denominational, vineyard, Pentecostal, assemblies of God. It has all of us on there.He carries us every time he goes before that throne of grace. We may be different tribes, but we are one nation, one people, one body before our God. Mature prophetic voices, point three, never build on revelation alone.Let's take a look at Colossians chapter two. Colossians chapter two, and we're going to read verses 18 and 19. Paul says this, let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions.Literally, the Greek says, going on in detail about the things they have seen. Puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind and not holding fast to the head from whom the whole body nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments grows with a growth that is from God. Let no one disqualify you by asceticism, by bringing a focus on their visions, on their encounters.Puffed up, they're prideful because of the things that they've seen or the things that they know because of their special knowledge, the sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the head. The key is that. It's not that someone talks about their revelation.We should be talking about our revelations with each other. Jesus rebuked the disciples because they didn't believe somebody else's spiritual encounter because they'd had an encounter with Jesus. They come back and tell all their friends and all their friends as well, I'll believe it when I see it.Show me that in the Bible. It was about Jesus. He rebukes them.Now, it's there in the Bible. It's very clear. They just couldn't see it because the veil had not yet been removed.And as the veil began to be removed, they saw very clearly the whole thing in the scripture. See, it must have a foundation in Jesus Christ. If somebody comes with a new teaching that's not at least 2,000 years old, you don't need it.You don't need it. It may be entertaining, and it may be intriguing. It may or may not be accurate, but you cannot build a foundation on it.If you cannot find it in scripture, it is not a foundation to stand on. If it's not drawing back to Jesus Christ, it is not a foundation to stand on. It must be about him.The true spirit of prophecy always testifies to Jesus. It is always pointing to Jesus. The foundation is Christ, and we will never move past or beyond Christ.The centrality of the cross, the understanding of the blood, knowing what it was that was actually accomplished in the death and the resurrection of our savior. What does it actually mean that he is ascended, seated at the right hand of the father? But we don't even get the foundations yet. We hear these things, and oh, I heard that a long time ago, and we want to move on to something new, something different.God's constantly drawing us back. It's not like we will ever exhaust the glories of Jesus. We will be talking about him and the things that are found in him for all of eternity.Every time he moves, these glorious creatures that have been looking on things that we couldn't even comprehend, they just fall on their faces before him every time he reveals another aspect of his glory. Their faces aren't turning from him to look at a lesser glory. They are faced constantly on Jesus, and they have no lack of revelation.And if we as a prophetic people can keep our faces fixed on Jesus, we will not have a lack of revelation, and the revelation that we have will actually help people instead of merely entertaining people. What we're called to do is to help people to bring life, to bring change, to bring about the very character of God in the lives of the people that we minister to. We're not called to create a fan club around our latest revelation.And the problem is that once you begin to get attention based on your latest revelation, you have to constantly have another revelation to keep getting attention. Now, again, I mean, we could go back and say this is not a new thing. We could go all the way back, or we could just go back 50 years ago, the end of the latter rain movement.And you have a young minister that began to, that decided that he needed to focus his ministry on teaching, and he began to encourage others that they needed to focus more on teaching rather than on their revelation, because they would end up getting into error, and many of them got into error. Many of them fell. Many of those that were in the latter rain movement didn't make it out well.Some even said out of their own mouth that God was going to kill them because of the direction that they were going, and they died very soon after, because of the bad doctrine that they were teaching and defiling the church with. But there were some that stood, that said if you make your ministry about your revelation or about your gift, then you're gonna constantly, you'll have to manufacture it. You'll have to make it bigger because it's constantly gotta be bigger than yesterday, or else people aren't going to come.But if you make it about your teaching and then God shows up, it'll emphasize the truth of the gospel instead of distract from it. And that is the desperate need of our hour, because the hope of our world is not the next revelation. It's Jesus.It's people turning their hearts to Jesus, giving their lives to Him, getting fascinated with Him, falling in love with Him, making Him their everything, their whole lives revolving around Him, trusting on Him as the only way to the Father. There's no way into heaven except Jesus. There's no meditation thing that's going to get you into heaven other than Jesus.There's no picturing images in your head that's gonna get you into heaven. Jesus is the only way. He is the door.Anybody comes in any other way than Jesus is not the true shepherd. They're a thief. And they do not belong in the pen.Jesus is the only message that we have been given. The only message that we have been given. And we have not exhausted that message.The whole Old Testament is pointing to Jesus. It's all about Jesus. From the very beginning, your seed is gonna be bruised on the heel when He bruises Him on the head.It was right there when He sacrificed the animal and put skins on them to say that you can only be clothed in the righteousness of the one pure lamb. It goes clear from the beginning, and it goes all the way through. It's all about Jesus.Every true revelation points to Jesus. And that's one clear way that you can know whether or not it's actually from God or not. It's gotta be about Him.We can never get beyond Him. It doesn't mean that every revelation that we get are we gonna be able to very clearly find in scripture. You're not gonna find a verse that's gonna tell you to go buy a red car.But God can tell you to buy a red car. But does that contradict scripture? Now, does that mean that everybody everywhere is supposed to buy red cars because God gave you a revelation to buy a red car, so that's obviously the revelation of heaven and everybody must line up with it if they actually want to be spiritual and be in the new thing that God is doing. No.You're supposed to buy a red car and then get back to going and walking with Jesus. Don't worship the red car. I wasn't looking that closely at you.That was your own heart convicting you. That had nothing to do with it. Do you see how easily we get drawn off of the reality of what we've been given? The hope of the world is not to figure out how to entertain angels.I mean, this was a few years ago where an international known prophetic voice is getting up and explaining to people how they had been told that they'd had this angelic encounter where this angel had come to them and explained to them that people knew a lot about Jesus and what they really needed in this hour is to be taught how to interact with angels. It didn't need to be a focus on Jesus in this hour. And they were communicating as if it was something other than a demon that told them that.So here's the thing. Clearly scripture, it's safe. You can stand on that.You can build your life on it. You can trust it in every situation at all times. If it doesn't violate scripture, may or may not be safe.Be entertained, be instructed, possibly be directed, but it's not a foundation to stand on. And if it violates scripture, it's demonic. It's got to be that clear.And make one point about that. I'm talking about the main and plain of scripture. Someone once said that too many preachers use the Bible like a tool.A drunken man uses a lamppost, more for support than illumination. I'm not saying that you have some encounter, then you go get a proof verse that doesn't fit the context of that verse. That's not clearly biblical.That doesn't mean that it's evil or wrong. Take, when it comes to direction and instruction, that can happen. Take a look at Acts chapter one and the verses that Peter used to support the idea of getting another apostle to take Judas's place.He uses scriptures completely out of context. That wasn't because for all of time, for all people, there always had to be 12 apostles. It was because for that time, for that people, they needed another apostle.And so it fit for that time, for that place, but it's not a doctrine that you begin to stand on. So God does that, and that's great. That's good for direction, right? But it doesn't become a new doctrine.So mature prophetic voices, one, we value character over gifts. They don't compare gifts. They never build on revelation alone, and they know the extent of their authority.It is very easy to build a platform telling people how special they are. And people need to know how valuable they are, but they don't need to be puffed up with untruth. I remember one of the Facebook posts that I probably got the most feedback.I had people that banned me and would never talk to me again because I made the comment, it says that it's not helpful to tell your child that they can do anything they want to do. It's better to help them find out how God created them so that they can fulfill the destiny with the gifts that God gave them. Oh, they couldn't stand, they can be anything they wanna be.All right, somebody without hands cannot be an amazing viola player, sorry. If they don't have a gift for it, if they can't hear, they don't even know what a good tone is. They don't know whether it's in key or out of key.They're not going to be well at that. Now, they may be the most amazing inspirational speaker that you've ever met. They may be able to communicate poetry in a way that changes nations and draws people to tears, but their gifting is not that, it's this.We need to discover what we are and figure out how to be that. Not over inflate people with this picture, telling them they can be anything that they wanna be. Help people discover who they are.What did God put inside of you that's different than he put inside of anybody else? Because he made you unique and the unique you that you are is absolutely needed for God's glory to be revealed because each one of us has a distinct expression of the glory of Christ. He put something of him inside of us that we are the only people, you are the only person in all of creation, in all of time, in all of the world that will ever be able to reveal that part of his glory. And if you become who you are intended to be, then he will get the glory that he wants to get from your life.But if you try to be somebody else, you will never, never reveal that glory. You've gotta be you, not someone else. You can't do anything you want.You can do what God created you to do in a way that will change the world. But you don't get to choose what that is. He's chosen that.He made you you because you are needed. You were born an original, don't die a copy. Mature prophetic voices know the extent of their authority.Let's go to 1 Corinthians chapter four. Paul dealt with this. Again, all of these things, these are the same things that prophetic communities, that the church community has needed for the whole history of the church.None of these are new things, but they've come back in our day, in our time. And so we need to look at them again. In 1 Corinthians chapter four, we're gonna start in verse eight.And if you don't have a grid for the Bible being sarcastic, you probably will by the time I get done reading this passage, because Paul uses sarcasm as a teaching tool. Already, you have all you want. Already, you've become rich.Without us, you've become kings. Oh, and would that you did reign so that we might share the rule with you. For I think that God has exhibited us apostles as last of all, like men sentenced to death because we become a spectacle to the world, to angels and to men.We're fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ. We're weak, but you're so strong. You're held in honor, but we in disrepute.To the present hour, we hunger and thirst, we're poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, and we labor working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless, when persecuted, we endure, when slandered, we entreat, we've become and are still like the scum of the world, the refuse of all things. I don't write these things to make you ashamed, but to admonish you as my beloved children, for though you have countless guides in Christ, literally though you have 10,000 guides, 10,000 teachers in Christ, you do not have many fathers.For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel, I urge you then be imitators of me. That's why I sent you Timothy, my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, to remind you of my ways in Christ as I teach them everywhere. Well, you keep on going, but you get the idea.Here are people that thought that they had everything that was coming tomorrow, today. And the reality is, is we have way more than what most believers have actually accessed and have actually tried to step into, but we do not have everything that we will have. The Bible says we will judge angels, in other words, we don't.Oh, but aren't I seated in Christ in heavenly places? Yeah, but that doesn't mean that you get to do whatever Christ could do. There are limits to your authority. There will come a time, he who is faithful in little will be faithful in much.If you're not faithful in little, you will not be entrusted with much. Very words of Jesus, I think that they're actually true. We're trying to figure out how to deal with principalities and we haven't learned how to deal with our own hearts.See, here's the thing with authority. Authority is proven by what happens, not by what's said. Verse 19, but I will come to you soon if the Lord wills, and I will find out not the talk of these arrogant people, but their power, for the kingdom of God does not consist in talk, but in power.We took the principality of abortion down over the region. Okay, great, are there less abortions? Huh. So in other words, we just made a lot of noise and nothing actually happened.The heavens, even the highest heavens belongs to the Lord, but the earth is given to the sons of man. What are we doing with the authority that we've been given? You know, there's one time in scripture where it talks about a principality or a high level demonic creature coming down. It's in the gospel of Luke, it's after the 72 had gone out.They'd gone out, they had preached the gospel, they'd healed the sick, they'd cast out demons. They didn't have a prayer meeting, they had preached the gospel, they'd healed the sick, they'd cast out demons. And Jesus says, I saw Satan fall like lightning.You wanna shift a principality over a region, change the region and the principality must shift. Amen. We wanna see governmental systems change, let's disciple, meaning evangelize politicians.We wanna see the economic system change, then let's evangelize businessmen and those that are in a place of authority and influence. We wanna see media change, let's evangelize Hollywood. See, one historian said that Caesar tried to change the known world by changing its laws, but Jesus changed it by changing men's hearts.Jesus left us with power and that power was to be his witnesses, to go out and proclaim the gospel that Jesus Christ died and he did not stay dead. He rose again and he is ruling at the right hand of the father and he is coming again to judge the quick and the dead. That there is coming a day when there will be accounting for everything that has been done, whether good or bad, it will be held before him.And while we're waiting for that day to come, we have been given power to deal with everything that the enemy has defiled in the earth realm. We come up against something that's not right, we fix it. We come up against sickness, we heal the sickness.We come up against demonization, we cast out the demon. We come up against unbelief, we preach the gospel because faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word about Christ. And as we go, lives change and as lives change, cities change and as cities change, regions change and as regions change, nations change.And yet there are times when God steps down into a nation and the consciousness of God falls and we pray for that day. But until then, we contend with what we've been given. We're faithful with what we have.We will get there one day, but until then, what are we doing with what's in our hand? We've got a lot in our hands already. We don't have to find new things. If we were just faithful with what we've already been given, things would change, lives would change, people would change.So there's this picture that has been painted in some places almost like the church is gonna make everything perfect and Jesus is gonna come back to a world that's already been set up under his government. And that sounds really good to the American mind, but America is about the only place that that preaches and it's not biblical. Hebrews 2, verse eight and nine says that all things have been put under subjection to Jesus Christ, but we do not yet see all things in subjection to him.Yeah, he has all authority, but he is not exercising all of that authority. When he decides to exercise all of that authority, the game's over and nobody else will ever get the chance to respond again. And so he waits so that you and I can get one more and one more and one more and one more.He's crying out for his kids to come home and you and I are his plan to get them to come home. Here's our last point. Mature prophetic voices have learned to know the difference between imagination and revelation.When you begin to press into hearing the voice of God, it is very, very helpful to allow yourself to imagine anything and then begin to test it to find out whether or not it's God. Sometimes it's helpful if somebody says, if God was gonna give that person a word, what's the best word that he would give them? And you try it and then you find out, oh, well, how did you know that? That was really God. We begin to give ourselves permission because our mind is so locked down, our ability to hear something that doesn't fit within our understanding that we almost have to give ourselves permission to imagine so that we can get to that place where we can find revelation.But as we mature, we need to figure out what the difference between imagination and revelation is. Because if we think that everything that we imagine is actually revelation, we're gonna be deceived. And there is a bunch of things that are being communicated as if they were revelation that is just imagination.And you can tell because there's no weight on it. Nothing's happening. There's a big difference between Revelation chapter four, where a door is held open in heaven and a voice says, come up here, than when a voice down here says, hey, I'm coming up.There's nowhere in scripture where someone on earth says, hey, I'm coming up. The invitation comes from heaven. Now, hunger positions ourselves and asks God, hey, can I come over? Right? We've got to learn the difference.Because there's a teaching that's out there that says that faith is, you know, it comes from Revelation chapter 12, verse six, and where it says that we prophesy according to the measure of our faith. So to the extent that we believe in our revelation, that is when it actually becomes prophecy. That's the, it's a bad interpretation of that verse, but that's what's being taught.And so you just got to imagine it. And when you imagine it, you communicate it as if it really happened, because then it's really revelation. And I was in a meeting where this was being explained and the person stops talking and say, I just went up to heaven.And I'm sitting there thinking, I've been around when stuff has happened. And you could feel it. Nothing just happened.You may have pictured heaven, but you did not go there. That is not the same thing, Revelation chapter four. That's not the same thing as Ezekiel chapter one.That's not the same thing as Isaiah chapter six. We can just keep on going. It is not the same thing.Now that doesn't mean God can't use that to give you information, to give you some revelation. He may use your imagination. He may let you start in the imagination and change it into revelation.It takes on a life of its own, but you actually have to learn to discern the difference. Because if everything that you imagine is revelation, then we really don't need to wonder why nobody cares about the prophetic church because it doesn't do anything anyways. Everybody's just weird.They're talking about all this stuff and nothing actually happens because we don't know how to discern the weight because we've helped people who are immature step in and never taught them how to grow up. Because when you're a kid, you're supposed to put everything in your mouth. That's what you do.You don't know what it is until you've tasted it. You've got to experience it. But when you grow up, you begin to change.When you're preteen and teen, you've got to try and figure out what the limit of your strength is. You try everything. And if you're a boy, you probably hurt yourself quite a bit, trying everything to see what you can do and what you can't do.But as you grow up, you begin to learn what you can and what you can't. See, maturity is not proven by what you can do. Maturity is proven by what you don't do that you could do.And when we begin to have a prophetic people that has more revelation than what they share, people actually listen to what they do share. But when we have a bunch of people that are talking about their imagination as if it were revelation, then we shouldn't wonder that nobody pays attention. So you do that around a group of people that are all learning where you're getting input to discern whether or not it was God, not to prove how gifted you are.Because you had this really cool imagination. Does this make sense? We really need to get this because it's a great doorway to begin to step in, but we just need to keep on going. We need to keep on maturing.There's more on the other side because there's a place where you bring a prophetic word and it literally changes someone's life in a moment. And they start one way and they leave another way where you change a church in a moment because you bring the right word. You change a business place in a moment.There's real that's available. Do you know when you've got a four-year-old, you give them a little plastic car, not the keys to the Lamborghini. And they may be 16 and 17-year-old and they could drive a car.You're still not giving them the keys to the Lamborghini. I mean, I desperately want to drive one of those one day. But I want somebody to teach me how, because I know that that's more power than I know how to handle.Because I've learned enough from the little bit that I have experienced that that's bigger than what I can handle. See, when you get there, somebody can teach you how to get there. Mature prophetic voices can be a very effective tool, but readiness for ministry is not in the size of the calling or the gift, but on character.Someone who wants to have authority should fulfill the requirements of someone in authority. And they're very clearly laid out in 1 Timothy 3 1-13 and Titus 1 5-11. It's very clear.That is the qualifications for ministry, not whether or not the leg grew out. Everybody should be growing legs out. That shouldn't be impressive.That's a gift, it has nothing to do with them. It does not mean that they're qualified. May mean that they're called, maybe, maybe, not necessarily.It does mean this, it means that God is merciful and he's really good, and he's better than what we think. But before someone gets to a place of authority, there are character requirements according to scripture. In the first century, there was a book that was written that almost made it into scripture.It didn't make it into scripture because they couldn't identify exactly who wrote it. It's called the Shepherd of Hermas. Has some very interesting things about revelation.But one thing that the Shepherd of Hermas says is this, by his life, you test the man that has the divine spirit. You have before you the life of both kinds of prophets. By his deeds in life, test then the man who says he is inspired.This has been the beginning point of the church for 2000 years. But our society has become so fascinated with paranormal activity that we've polished it up and put a religious veneer on it and brought it into the charismatic church. I'll tell you that there is no greater spiritual encounter than encountering the spirit of Christ.We need Jesus. We need a fresh vision of Jesus, a fresh visitation of Jesus, a fresh revelation of who Jesus is, a fresh understanding of his heart, fresh understanding of his work, of the power of that blood to wipe away every stain, to remove, to break the power of sin, so that the yoke that holds people breaks because of the blood, so that the results of choices will be nailed to a cross instead of nailed to someone's back, when we begin to understand the authority of the cross to break structures. Okay, well we are here today to talk about John Thomas's message on prophetic reformation and I am delighted to host the discussion today and my name is Charity Bowman-Webb and I am a leader with Streams Ministries heading up Streams Scotland and Streams Creative House and I am here with a couple of my good friends Alan McWilliam and Faith Brennan. So would you guys like to just introduce yourselves, say a little bit about how we're connected.Alan, what do you do? Who are you? Yeah, hi Charity, thanks for having me. I am Alan McWilliam and I am the leader of the Cairn Movement. Most of the time what I spend my time doing is really kind of training people to start new missionary projects, so church planting, mission projects, businesses, charities, other things which help them to connect with people who as yet do not know Jesus.So the people who are beyond the kind of bounds of the church and basically I can help to train people to do that and then support them and then help to network them together as we move forward to build a really healthy network of people who are missional practitioners. So some people are in new places, there are existing church leaders as well that we work with and existing leaders and we do that as well. So a bit of both and then generally involved in lots and lots of networking and connections and other things as well.So great to be with you, thanks Charity. Great and Faith, would you like to tell us a bit about yourself? Sure, so I was a church planter and pastor for years and years with my husband Scott, basically in the ex-mining towns in and around Edinburgh and latterly I was working in a large church in Edinburgh but I've also worked with Cairn and with Alan for years, being a pioneer, working with pioneers and what I love doing is training so I often get involved in Cairn's learning communities which are places that create spaces for church teams to have the conversations about pioneering, mission, discipleship that are hard to get around to in your kind of monthly church leaders meeting. So my husband and I now live on Holy Island also known as Linda's Farm where we look after retreat facilities and do a lot of connecting and supporting church leaders and I also run my own business to keep body and soul together so that's a bit of what I do.And you work with properties and look after lots of properties and develop them and look after tenants so it's great to have a, like you've got one foot very much in the understanding of the church camp working in ministry and then working in ministry out there with lots of different people in the property business which is great. So I, as I said, I work with Streams Ministries so obviously I work with John Thomas, he's essentially my boss and heads up Streams Ministries International based over in Dallas because his accent is a dead giveaway on the podcast but John is heavily invested in the UK and he's been over here more than a dozen times and has a real heart for what God is doing here in Scotland and around the UK and prophetic reformation is our topic so obviously it's very dear to my heart. I really want to see the healthy prophetic demonstrated in our nation and in any nation where God is working which is obviously every nation and we realize at the moment that we are in a huge cleanup of prophetic ministry and importantly for our Synergy podcasts, how does the prophetic in its healthy state, how should that relate to the rest of the the five-fold, how should it relate to the other gifts and work with them to serve God's church, what are we maybe seeing, what has John been pointing out that isn't happening that we could be doing better and so what we want to do is kind of hit some of the highlights of what John was bringing up and just discuss that from our different giftings.So Synergy's all about us seeing with different hats on so do you guys just want to say what you would say your primary giftings are in the five-fold ministry, what kind of lens do you think you'll come at this with? Alan? Yeah sure so yeah so my main kind of lens would be the apostolic when I take the 5Q test I always end up a apostolic e and then it's kind of around the sort of prophetic teacher kind of comes down a bit and then the shepherd is somewhat subterranean I'm afraid but basically that's it. So one of the things that's really kind of interesting about the kind of the 5Q thing and in particular Rich Robinson who teaches on it is says that it's this whole thing of your motivation is really around the apostolic so the big picture how do we get breakthrough etc but it's often expressed through your secondary gifting which in my case is the evangelistic so I'm often thinking about mission and sharing faith and how do we do that so my big picture apostolic is all you know the conversation is therefore kind of usually around okay but what does that mean in terms of us actually sharing faith, how do we actually communicate the gospel in sensible ways to people. Right exactly, Faith what lens would you come at this from primarily do you think? Sure well I would primarily come at it through a teacher's lens and then my secondary lens would be apostolic and thinking about what Alan just said I do have a really big heart for things being rooted in scripture.Do they line up with what God has said and it was music to my ears to hear some of that in John's teaching. If something isn't in line with scripture then it cannot be right that is exactly what all teachers would say it's our flag but then coming through an apostolic lens what I love to do is get alongside people who are pioneering and doing new things and I suppose partly think about what kind of discipleship and teaching is needed to support that but also one of the other aspects of teachers is we're usually very good at creating systems so I love to think of what systems can be created to support this even down to the slightly more interesting things like governance and so on which are incredibly important but not always the not always top of our pioneers agenda. Right exactly and I know John Thomas very well it's been a friend for over a decade and he has a very strong teaching gift big on teaching so he would highly approve of what you've just said and so my lens would be primarily prophetic and secondary apostolic but they're almost neck and neck when I do that 5q test and so I you know I'm very passionate about the prophetic and the creative side of God and his language and the kind of metaphorical side of God the storytelling but also you know the apostolic is a very practical application and so let's let's dig into this message from our lenses then and let's see how we might see some of these points that John has raised differently or maybe we see them the same.I would say one of the first ones would be you know John talked about living faithfully in God's plan and that sometimes you know we have a plan we have a we imagine maybe even God's plan for us but then we realize that we we find ourselves in the middle of something much greater and maybe sometimes the plan starts to look like something we never even imagined and at that point this is you know digging into gift versus character are we willing to bend the knee and say God I submit to your plan so what do you guys think of that in terms of prophetic reformation what do you see out there do you see the prophets doing that or do you think we could do better? It looks like it's gonna be me faith that's great. I yeah I mean I appreciated what John was sort of saying and I think that kind of the whole thing about the about us needing to be obedient to the things that God calls us to and being faithful to that I think is absolutely essential I mean and and interestingly I think that for me as I've listened to it I actually kind of thought one of one of the kind of most significant things in that space of obedience is actually that it makes space for the impossible it makes space for God because actually the thing is often what will happen is if we if we just simply kind of just do our thing then actually it's our thing and and actually one of the one of the things that I'm really looking for is to ask the question you know what does it look like for us to minister in such a way that it's followed by signs and wonders what does it look like for us to sort of do things that actually allows breakthrough and the reality is that actually if we continue to function around our own gifting account you know and and actually just focus on that then often that kind of takes us into a smaller space that takes us into a less God impossible space it takes us into a space where actually you know we're just doing our thing rather than necessarily God doing his thing and so I think at the place where we actually kind of push away from that and into the space of of obedience and and submission to the will of God and allowing and allowing our character of you know in terms of our who we are as as obedient followers of Christ allowing that to shape our decision making and allowing that to shape how we actually do ministry what it does is I think it actually kind of moves us into a different space because it allows God to do stuff that actually can only be done when we're in that kind of we're in that place of submission and surrender and obedience so actually I think that's really important and I think you know and and so I really yeah I think that's that's just an important aspect of what I think that God is doing in terms of recalibrating the way in which the body functions so I thought that was really helpful as he talked about that. Yeah that's great Alan I agree.Faith would you want to say anything extra on that? Yeah absolutely I love what John said about us being part of something bigger often especially as younger people and younger Christians we're very concerned about my destiny my calling my gifts partly because we have grown up in an individualistic western society with that mindset and partly because we're young but actually I would argue that we are always part of something bigger I don't think God's that interested in solo destinies I think he's interested in the destinies of nations and generations so when I look at scripture what I see is people like Abraham people like Moses people like Mary when you really look at the the snapshot of the life that they get to live they don't get to see what really happens with the destiny Abraham never gets to see that he is the father of many nations he just gets to see the beginning of that Moses never gets to see the promised land Mary I don't know how much of the church she gets to see but nothing she would probably not have believed it would be like today she saw nothing like that so I think that's worth bearing in mind especially when we feel a bit stuck in our own destiny we may not be stuck we may just be on pause and then thinking about you asked about are the prophets what are they doing right now are they doing what they should be doing I'm not sure I could comment on that but what I would say is prophets bring us back to focus on God ideally prophetic ministry will always be saying hold on a minute are we are we in a place of worship are we in a place of encounter has this come out of the prayer room and a place of discernment or has it just come out of a meeting and a set of good ideas and the second things prophets do which I do see a lot more now is that social justice cry that you see a lot in the old testament prophetic books that cry of this is not right whether it's in a nation or a people or a behavior or an action that is just so unacceptable but coming back to the first one I would say I think there are prophetic ministries and ministries with prophetic people who are saying we need to be in prayer we need to be in the waiting room personally I think that's probably the most important thing that prophets are doing at the moment and ministries hearing that is calling us to wait and pray there is so much going on in the earth that is upsetting and anxiety making and that doesn't mean we need to pray as a kind of oh god help us it's all going wrong it means we need to be in the prayer room praying discerning waiting and hearing what is our job in the overall plan and the beauty of apest working together is the apostles listening to the prophets and working with the shepherds and the teachers and the evangelists always produces something of the fullness of christ who was the perfect apostle prophet evangelist shepherd and teacher and maybe it's wrong to say that the world has never needed christ more than it does now but it definitely needs as much of the fullness of christ now as it can get and so when we have prophets and apostles working together they are the foundation it seems on which other things are built I don't really understand how that works but I just know when those two ministries are not working well things don't seem to be going as well yeah that's a that's a great answer lots of good points there and I think um just to add to that and and to sort of effortlessly take us on to our next point as well is you know we're really talking about what is the role of of the prophetic when it looks healthy and it is to work with you know the other gifts but it is as you say to point people to be that vertical point people back to God bring everybody you know back into that plum line of holiness prayer seeking God whereas we seem to in many quarters of the prophetic at the moment we seem to have turned it into something else and that is what's under examination um and that brings us into you know our next point is you know about favor and faithfulness about character over gifting about the the role of the prophetic so I mean I've listened to a lot of John's teaching and he teaches a lot about the different roles of the prophetic so some of them are social justice absolutely others are very focused on prayer um but it should always be to be pulling the church back into holiness you know that what what is God saying what is God's heart for this not just what is what we think is our own destiny our own good ideas our own good ideas for the church and I loved your point about the biblical characters their stories how you know we read about Abraham and that you know thousands of years later the father of all nations and all this kind of stuff but he didn't get to see any of that and our earth lives are fairly short um and I had a wonderful prayer time with God this moment this this morning and just he was just showing me different seasons of my life and where one might have ended that I think in you know what is success in earthly terms should have built and built and built into something how many times have we all seen something unexpectedly stop close shorten and yet if we look back at the pattern of our journey our destiny then something else opens up if we're faithful and we're keeping our eyes on God's big picture and serving the whole church not just our own plan it's like a linking chain isn't it and he doesn't see if it doesn't build and build and build into this big empire which would be earthly success God doesn't work like that he he works in seasons and cycles and brings in different pieces of the journey and there was something John said in a teaching recently I heard that was um you know God's success kingdom success never looks like our success never looks like our idea of success it's always different and I'm sure Abraham could have said the same when he walked the earth my goodness you know I didn't have the promised child till I was 100 years old type of thing so when we look at this and and the role of the of the prophet and the prophetic calling to pull people back into that you know it may not be what we thought it would be but let's keep seeking what is God's idea of success then the the role of the prophetic calling is to is if they're to call the church back into holiness it is to seek to live in holiness as much as possible and that is why um you know many of us believe the prophetic desperately needs some reformation right now because we're seeing some things that wouldn't really be that uplifting within prophetic ministry so one of those let let me ask you about this is John talked a lot about healthy prophetic communities you know what do they look like they're not a club for prophets they're not um a little special community of the of the church that sees dreams and visions and hears from God and no one else does that's not what the bible says they should be integrated he pointed out serving the church the wider church the local the trans local engaged in evangelism working with all the other gifts serving God's people and reaching those who don't know God so within that do you guys want to comment on that do you see prophetic ministry anywhere doing that in a good way where do you see that maybe not happening and you'd like to see a change Alan do you like to jump in yeah i mean i think so i mean i was a church leader for a long time i don't have responsibility for a local church now but um we really kind of wanted to into the kind of the things around uh all of the fivefold gifts but um we we had no experience um really around the kind of prophetic stuff and so we kind of came to streams actually and asked if you guys would come when you would teach us and so on and and part of the reason for that is because uh as a as a as someone who led a local church and i'm fairly sure faith as someone who led a local church for a long time uh where the gifts of the spirit were were were open to them what what we realized was an un uh an unseasoned prophetic person with a high gift and anointing but with low character is an absolute nightmare in the local church uh in the nicest possible way and it's because and it's because actually it's a bit like kind of like giving a kid a loaded gun you know it's a bit like that you know this sort of oh my goodness you know somebody able to sort of go come along to someone and sort of say hey this is what god is saying in your life and actually being right about that because actually the anointing was there the gifting was there but then either they didn't have the experience to be able to kind of do the the interpretation in the application or they gave it in a negative way or you know it was that kind of thing and there was and and and so i suppose as a local church leader i've experienced the chaos uh that ensues when unhealthy prophetic things happen uh and that's why actually we we came to streams and we sort of said hey could you help us with this and the things that we kind of really liked one that the teaching was kind of that what we got was all about you know going deeper into the word if it's not in the words it's not right just focus on a few sort of saying then it needs to be done in healthy relationship so it's actually part of the kind of church and part of the kind of and learning how to submit to one another and what that looks like and then you know and then the other things are really about you know uh the the whole thing of actually you have to build enough character to be able to carry the weight of your gifting and actually uh the the your ability to really kind of minister healthily really depends on you on on your ability to be more like jesus and to carry the character of christ rather than just simply kind of like having the gifting and the anointing and the ability to be able to kind of get revelation and then be able to kind of fire it out like bullets you know so so from my point of view i think that um you know where where i've sort of seen this uh really healthily modeled as where we've had that kind of teaching and then we've had a local church context that's been able to kind of nurture people and give them a shot at these things and where people are willing to then sort of say we are learning we're not the finished article and so we're not going to be offended if you know the if for whatever reason the local church leaders are going to say you're not quite ready to speak from the front yet please would you sort of write all your stuff down and give it to us so we can actually kind of discern it and we went through all of those kind of processes in the churches that are part of and that's what then produced the character the submission the surrender the willingness to actually to grow in these things which meant that actually the people who'd come through those processes and who were willing to be seasoned trained honed refined all that kind of stuff which is really about their character in christ it was then that they began to kind of bring uh prophetic insights which was transformative actually both personally to the people that they were ministering to but actually they also had the um the confidence of the leaders that when they spoke into the church context they were doing so with a real heart for the church and a desire to see it grow and so on so all of those kind of things really were the healthy expressions of that and and we've and but we've also seen the opposite you know we've also seen the chaos uh and and and the carnage and and and it is i mean literally because because at the end of the day i mean what you're really talking about is somebody who has the ability to be able to come and say god is saying this into your life that's a massive thing and especially if it's said in that way you know if it's the thus saith the lord sort of stuff what happens is it's really difficult for people to process that but if it's offered in the way that you know we encourage you guys encourage people to which is you know that a sense that you know that the lord might be saying something this is what it could be so there's lots of kind of like space for people to hold it catch it lift it sift it work out whether or not it actually sits well with them test the the prophecy that talks about that you know we have all of these um but when that doesn't happen oh my goodness i could tell you i'm sure faith could tell you story after story as well of where that hasn't gone quite as well in the local church context but i've said i've definitely seen the opposite of that because of the kind of teaching that you guys have brought which has been great yeah faith do you want to add anything to that yeah sure um yes similarly i was in a church um like alan's and streams were the ministry that helped us so what i would say is that a trans local ministry or prophetic community like streams done well is incredibly helpful to a local church because there's only so much time that your average church leader has if you think of having a small congregation most congregations are in the kind of 50 to 100 range in scotland so where do we have the teachers to teach the prophets the apostles you know we you know we'll be good at some things but we will inevitably be weaker at others um and also i think it's very helpful for young prophetic i mean people who are young in their faith with prophetic gifting and i think everybody has the ability to hear from god and so as some level of gifting to go to a ministry like streams and hear things that if if i if their pastor say listen your character is way more important than the gift that you think so great that's going to come one way if they go to a streams course and somebody else says exactly the same thing they're probably going to receive it differently and they're also i think it's very good to be around a group of people who are more gifted than you and have gifting and watch them and listen to them saying that and i mean that's how i would summarize john's whole talk because he's basically saying no matter what gifting you have and we do need gifted prophetic people character will still be the most important thing i would say that's because basically you cannot lead people where you haven't been and you can't set them in a direction that you're not going in so if you if i am living one way and teaching people another it's going to be an authentic no what my gift but the difficulty with prophets is because the gift is meant to equip the body of christ to pull closer to god to be in the discerning room of worship and prayer and all of that sort of thing then if they say that and live another way it's so jarring and so difficult and so i know there have been some big kind of sent more sensational and no doubt less sensational falls from grace and and that's not great but honestly that could be any of us it isn't easy to be a follower of christ and live a holy life it isn't it's not meant to be easy jesus speaks about the narrow road so i do think we need to be careful in how critical we are of people when they live one way and speak another because we'll all do that at some point however a healthy prophetic community is going to have enough accountability enough checks and balances that it's a place in which gifts can grow and character can grow and the the last thing i was thinking of as you were sharing this is oh gosh about 30 years ago i went to a course called the art of hearing god which was a streams course and at that point there was a man called john paul jackson who was very respected then and he was teaching it and i was there with three or four very well they were more prophetically gifted than me and i didn't disclose this in the beginning but i will now when i do my apest test prophetic is lowest so quite often i really struggle to connect with prophetic people i just think what is the big deal and so that i keep that to myself usually but now it's on the podcast so i went up to this man um he was doing the teaching i went up to him and um and i said to him listen i'm here with these prophetic people and they're asking me to disciple them but how can i disciple them when basically i don't really have any prophetic gifting and they do and he basically said i won't try a text and accent or any of that but he basically said oh no no no it's not about gifting it's about character and you have the character to disciple them he said prophetically as he looked into my eyes and read my soul it was a bit of an awesome experience and i now realize years later that's true it was never about me teaching them how to hear from god better they would learn that god would if you like god and streams would teach them that but i would help them be rooted in scripture and know how to bring what they had in public meetings or in everyday life how to deliver the things they felt god was saying so yeah that's just all the stuff that's running around my head as i'm listening to you both charity can i ask you a question is that okay because it seems to me that actually the conversation that we're having just now that faith and i are talking about is is actually about how do you you we're talking about how do you create healthy prophetic communities but one of the ways that you do that to learn how to pass to the prophetic, or lead the prophetic, or, you know how, because the problem is in lots and lots of places, and you know, like faith, I would sort of say, you know, certainly, when we began to kind of see some of the kind of prophetic ministry begin to develop in the church that we obviously involved in leading, it's quite intimidating, because you feel, because as a church leader. You know, you feel, you know, I've got a theology degree, I've got all this, I've got all this experience, but I don't have any experience in this area. And actually the temptation, therefore, is to control it and to close it down. And so actually, one of the, one of the kind of the questions, so this is the question I want to ask you, charity is where you know, as you have, have you, Have you, have you got examples, or have you got advice about how to lead prophetic people well in a local church context that will allow a healthy prophetic community to flourish? What, what would be the kind of your your top tips for that? Sure, I think I had a couple of absolutely amazing pastors for 16 years, Tom and Ruth Raller so coming in as a younger prophetic person, and then, you know, moving through the different years till I was head of prophetic for kings Inverness for a few years, I would say they really helped me learn how to do that. And also John Paul Jackson, who was the founder, he was the founder of streams ministries. This, this plumb line for him of character over gifting and all the message within the art of hearing God, that was the game changer. If I hadn't had that, my answer is, I wouldn't have had a clue. But because, you know, Tom and Ruth really believed in that core message, because they allowed prophetic people to have a go and grow in their gift, but also were very serious about character development, and so was I as their prophetic leader in Kings. That that to me, not just, not just within the context of the local church and kings, but when we grew to take outreach teams and prophetic ministry teams more nationally and then internationally, this still applied that there was a lot less mess to clean up that we had that I you know, then I heard about in other ministries, because we were this character over gifting. Your gift does not entitle you to even be on a team. It doesn't entitle you to a microphone or a stage. It entitles you to empty the bin if the bin needs emptied, you know, entitles you to serve, to clean up, to offer the coffee, and then you might get to minister prophetically to somebody, if leaders see good character. And that's the way we still run things in in streams. And I think, you know, just picking up on couple of things you guys have said, you know. And what John said, you know, first, Corinthians, 13, love should be our motivation. That was right there in the middle of talking about spiritual gifting, if our motivation is to build a great, big YouTube platform, an amazing ministry, tons of Facebook likes, that's not what the Bible talks about. If love is the motivation, you're just as happy to give a prophetic word to somebody quietly in your church that no one else will ever know about. You're just as happy to do that to encourage someone as you would be to have a microphone and a stage. And I think this is what we're seeing that's become alarming, that this topic of prophetic reformation is being spoken about right across the body at the moment, not just within streams. But, you know, we've really got things out of kilter. If love and character is the motivation for the prophetic, the biblical motivation, then this kind of, you know, a kind of word for the day, a word for the minute, a word for everyone this month, just so there can be yet another posting on a social media platform. As some of my prophetic leader friends have said, it's just becoming white noise. And where is the motivation and the white noise? You know, there's just so many words with I have heard God, and bless, saith God. And I think, like you said, Alan, the the motivation of love, would say, would present it in a way. I've always loved that to present a word in a way to somebody that gives them space to breathe with God, not to make the deliverer look good, but to make the hearer, the receiver be edified. The Word says, be lifted up, receive direction with a more mature prophetic word. But we you were seeing in places a kind of twisting of the use of the gift to make the deliverer look super gifted. And. And and that is where we're seeing people fall from grace, very sadly, you know, very publicly, um, when they have built platforms around a gift and that almost makes them untouchable, when actually, every gift given by God should be accountable. That's where you come back into the local church. People should know you. They you should be accountable to them. They should be able to question you if they're not sure about a word you've given or something regarding your character. And where we see anyone, any gift, the prophetic or otherwise, create a situation where they almost become unchallengeable. That is when we're seeing things move into the danger zone and the prophetic, which makes me really sad, because I know that the prophetic as a gift is intended to be like you said, Alan, life changing in its rightful place, edifying, directional. I think all of us here could probably say at some point we've received a word, and it was highly motivational for years to come, to keep us not given up and know that God was calling us into Destiny, and the enemy wouldn't want that. He wouldn't want the gift in its healthy, pure, you know, mature form in the body. And that's why this is worth fighting for, and not just throwing out the prophetic, but actually fighting for it. So, yeah, so can I ask a question then about, you know, presumably people are listening to this. They're in a local church. They might be, they might be like me, kind of, you know, somebody who was leading, and they might be kind of saying, I'd love to see this, what's being described by John in this podcast. I'd love to see that happening, but I don't know where to start. Or there might be some people who are kind of have a sort of sense of, oh, that's how I'm wired. I get that, but I don't just, I just don't know. I just don't know where to kind of step into that, or how to mature in that, or how to or how to offer my gift in a local church context. So I mean, how? My question is, how do people get started in the if we want to see healthy prophetic community, how do they get started in the local church context? What's the first few steps? It's a great question, actually. I mean, streams, has you know, been sowing into Scotland and many, many other nations for years with exactly what you've said? Really good down to earth training on ramps for from the very beginning to those who really almost feel you know, all the way up to calling in prophetic leadership. But equally, the on ramp is that every child of God can hear His voice. Jesus said, My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me. So if we can't hear God's voice clearly, we don't really know what God's saying to us. So I think the passion behind all of streams Ministries is to help anyone and everyone see in the Bible where God is speaking, how he's speaking, how he can speak to them and just learn those basic steps of so how do we grow in the ability to understand what God is saying and and how he's saying it? Because he says it through, perhaps this, the still, quiet voice, but equally, all the way up through dreams, visions, all these things are very biblical. So Streams, we have a training center in Scotland, but we have training centers across the world. And like many ministries today, a whole lot of really good online, you know, courses and tools, some free, some you know that you invest a bit more time, but there's loads of them at Streams Ministries International, at the website, and we're doing all sorts of ministry and training and equipping this year in Scotland. So if you're listening to this and you're in the UK, you know, we're partnering with Cairn this year to be teaching at your this is a plug for the mission school, because that's very exciting. Coming up in June. We're hoping to be partnering and training people in how to hear God's voice, and then take that out to people who don't know God. Use that precious gift to  hear for, you know, for other people, and hear what God is saying and encourage them. So, yeah, lots of training available at streams ministries, yeah. So time wise, it's probably time to land this plane. This is a hot topic, and I think there are many more discussions in the church about prophetic reformation to come this year, which is a good thing. We want to see it restored. We want to see where we're doing it well. We want to see where we could do so much better and restore it to the gift that God meant it to bless the church. So any last thoughts you guys before we land the plane? Just this is good when we should do it. And actually, it's going to take a while. These things need to be given the time and space to actually kind of grow you need to grow prophetic culture. You need to grow prophetic people within any kind of local church context. And that's not something that you can do quickly. So I think it's just being willing to take the time to invest in people, to create the kind of healthy and safe space in a local church context for that to happen, so that people can grow in their gift. And I suppose, if speaking to folks who aren't necessarily kind of prophetic and who are but maybe who are local church leaders who are a wee bit sort of scared of this, because they just think, Oh, my goodness, this is going to be carnage, actually. You know, just to say the benefit is worth the process. Yeah, the benefits definitely. So taking your time and going through and actually building these things and investing, it'll produce so much fruit and then, but, but it does take a while, and it is, you know, it's important just to kind of be aware of that as well. That would be my kind of last thought. That's great Faith. Any last thoughts? Yeah, just similar to Alan. I think the beauty of synergy and the conversations that we're having on the podcast is seeing things through our different lenses and talking them through, putting that out there, and then everybody who's listening is adding their view and beginning to see how we as the body of Christ are actually looking at the same thing and often the same issues, but we're just seeing them from different perspectives. And if we could see that as a healthy thing, rather than a threat, and we could walk, kind of walk forward together, then we begin to get unity, which is the whole point. When you read Ephesians four, the whole point is that we will have maturity and unity, even though we've been gifted differently. Yeah, that's, that's a great I mean, my final point would just, you know, just echo that, add to that. You know, there's a reason God outlined five, five different offices, roles, that he outlined, different gifts, and we're not going to see the great harvest by ignoring the ones that we find a wee bit tricky. It's an embracing, isn't it? Of all the gifts for the Church of the future, that's the only way we can go forward now is to keep these discussions going. So thank you so much for joining us today, and we'll let we'll land the plane here and look forward to many more conversations about the five full gifts. Thanks for listening to the synergy sessions podcast. We hope that you've been inspired by what you've heard, and we hope that that encourages you as you press in for what God has got for you in the future.