Killer Cop or Suspected Serial Killer?

 James Aren Duckett was convicted of one horrific murder—but investigators believed there may have been more. After Teresa McAbee was found dead in 1987, evidence led police to the officer who had been the last person seen with her. Duckett was convicted and sentenced to death, while investigators later connected him to the deaths of other women and girls. He was never charged in those additional cases, leaving a disturbing question: How many victims could James Aren Duckett have had? We examine the evidence, the unanswered questions, and the case of a police officer who became a convicted murderer—and a suspected serial killer. 

James Duckett execution, James Aren Duckett death row, James Duckett 2026, Teresa McAbee murder, Florida death row inmate, police officer death row, death penalty Florida, DNA testing death penalty, inconclusive DNA results, James Duckett innocence claim, Florida true crime, former cop murderer, child murder case, suspected serial killer, Jeanifer Weldon, Florida cold case, true crime podcast, murder investigation, criminal justice, death penalty controversy 

Transcript

John (00:08)

So I pulled a topic for this week, and I actually like mainly I'm just gonna focus on this one court document about it. But it's it's interesting, and it's one of those things that in the back of my mind I think ranks pretty high on my true crime WTF list.

Joel (00:32)

Okay.

John (00:34)

so

How many times do you remember going, yeah, that serial killer guy that they're looking for? It's a police officer.

Joel (00:48)

Ooh, how many times? there's the serial arsonist that was a fire captain. There was I don't know if I've could name any serial killers. I know that there's been like mass killers that I that are cops, but no. You can tell me about a serial killer that's a cop? I mean we cut one we covered one Sonia

John (01:06)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's several, but

Joel (01:09)

Ivanhoff was killed by a cop and he may or may not had other victims, but yeah, let's get into it. I fucking it

Scares me whenever cops are responsible for violent crimes.

John (01:21)

Yeah, this guy, he's a creepy dude, and I'm I'm telling you this story for like a pretty specific reason. I'm mainly pulling from his direct appeal because that's the best available evidence as to what's happened with him. They stipulate to a lot of stuff, they have a lot of questions about him, but this guy was interesting to me because

He doesn't have like the standard here's what we know about him. in fact, even in like the court record, a lot of what was talked about with him like ignored his personal life. It ignored his whole life prior to him being a police officer. And I always find that interesting. because I want to know more.

But like most of what you would read about this guy is pretty terrible. What we do know is that he is born in September of 1957 down in Florida. They say nothing good comes out of Florida, and I believe that. Most good things to Florida are imported, except for certain types of oranges.

Joel (02:40)

Some college football

players.

John (02:43)

No they're all important.

They're

they bring them from other places. So to understand my frustration with this gentleman, we have to jump around in time just a little bit. he had some kind of problem with Mother's Day and Labor Day. And our first stop is Lakeland, Florida. On May 7th of 1986, an unnamed woman was discovered dead in this water-filled

Pitt.

Joel (03:18)

Awww.

John (03:18)

Sh was five foot two, kind of skinnier. She had reddish-brown hair and either blue or hazel eyes, but by the time she's found, her eyes are cloudy, so they can't tell the exact color. She was actually fully clothed. They were able to identify her shirt as being aqua blue. She's got blue jeans on. And the cause of her.

Death is written up as strangulation. She had last been seen getting into a dark blue car. Now, this is 86. She's not gonna be identified for 40 years, give or take.

Joel (04:04)

P

John (04:07)

Well, you said that perfectly, but now I gotta fix it. She's not gonna be identified for another twenty years. My apologies.

Joel (04:17)

Twenty years? Two decades? You not that's not even that's

John (04:19)

Yeah.

Joel (04:19)

not that's not a cold case. That's a an un that's a Jane Doe.

John (04:24)

Yep, she's a Jane Doe for a long time. So, from everything we know, she is from Madrid, Iowa. She is finally identified in 2006 as 22-year-old Ronette Lynn Peterson. So she's 22 back in 1986. Ronette had relocated from Iowa down to Florida.

In January of nineteen eighty six. So this is

Joel (04:54)

If you're gonna leave Iowa

for Florida any time of the year, January's not a bad time to make that

John (05:00)

Right. so she's been so she moves four months before her death and being found dead.

Joel (05:10)

Okay.

John (05:11)

So the family files a missing persons report after Renette stops writing to them. She had been writing them letters all the time. they had kept the body, the unidentified Jane Doe, they had kept the body's fingerprints. And she had been arrested back in 1983 when she was very young for drunk driving in Des Moines. So

Her fingerprints were on file. They had kept the Jane Doe's fingerprints, and they were able to identify her by matching those up. So that's our first stop in time.

Joel (05:50)

Okay.

John (05:51)

Our second stop in time is May 11th of 1987. So it's about a year later.

An

11-year-old girl named Teresa May Maccabe walks out of a convenience store with a 16-year-old boy. A patrol officer steps between them and asks them both to identify themselves. And he describes the boy as being a 16 year old quote Mexican boy. So he separates them and ostensibly.

His excuse is gonna be an 11-year-old white girl and a 16-year-old Mexican boy, they shouldn't be walking around Florida together. I don't know why he does this, but it's in the town of Mascot, Florida. So that's in Lake County. So the boy goes home, supposedly the girl goes home, and the boy comes back.

Back to the convenience store later on, where he's met by his uncle. His uncle and this 16-year-old boy, they see Teresa McAbee standing over near an officer's patrol car. According to the boy and the uncle, this officer takes this little 11-year-old girl into the police car and they leave the scene.

Joel (07:29)

shit.

John (07:28)

So she did not

go home, she goes with this officer.

As far as we know, this is the last time anyone sees Teresa McAbee alive. The first

Joel (07:41)

And from

the get go it's a little bit suspicious 'cause that boy, if everything was like on the up and up, that boy would have went home and been you know, not thought anything of it, but he he goes home and immediately tells an uncle like, yo, Teresa's with this cop and something feels off about it.

John (07:59)

Right. So the following day a fisherman finds Teresa Macabee's body near the shore of Night Lake.

Joel (08:10)

fuck.

John (08:11)

So investigators start gathering evidence and they start looking for what has happened here. They are able to find pubic hairs left at the scene of the crime. They find that that leads them to a particular set of circumstantial evidence, and on the police car, they're able to find.

Palm prints for the little girl, and they're also able to cast tire tracks that are near the the place that her body has been found. So that's our nineteen eighty seven May crime. On September nineteenth of nineteen eighty seven, a fifteen year old girl named Jennifer Cheyenne Weldon.

Missing.

According to friends, she was going to visit another friend and was last seen walking alone after leaving a carnival in the area. So Jennifer, and that's like the word the name Jean, J E A N, and then it's been merged with Jennifer. So Jennifer. so

She is going to be reported missing by her mother on September 20th of 1987. She is not gonna be found until October 2nd. So a couple weeks later, in a a slightly different place than our other crimes, but it's over in Polk County, Florida. So

Joel (10:05)

Is it still

water?

John (10:10)

no, it's not it's not as much water going on with this one. they that we don't get a lot of details about how she's found, but I'm gonna come back to this case in a minute because it's got a weird aspect to it. So it investigators working on Jennifer's murder, they start developing suspects. And one of the suspects turns out

to be the police officer who is linked to Teresa McAbee's murder. They found

Joel (10:48)

nice. Okay.

John (10:49)

they found that he had been suspended from his job as a police officer after the disappearance of Teresa McAbee in June of 1987. So he's suspended June 16th and on June 19th he's fired.

And it turns out he was the only officer on duty that day near where Maccabe went missing. So they found out that he's working as a night shift laborer in a phosphate mine in Polk County, and he had been driving to work near the area where Jennifer Weldon's body is found.

Joel (11:36)

Did call and sick that day?

John (11:37)

No, but they found gasoline receipts indicating that he was very near the scene of where she disappeared on the day she disappeared, around the time that she disappeared. He didn't call in sick, but he showed up for work two hours late to the mine that day, and he looked disheveled and dirty.

Joel (12:00)

Yeah, okay.

John (12:02)

So it was noted that Jennifer Weldon had been carrying a green shopping bag and a stuffed toy. And that's

Joel (12:14)

She won at the carnival?

John (12:17)

what I'm thinking. Neither of them were found with her body, but this police officer's wife is later on gonna come forward and say that her husband brought home a similar green shopping bag.

That had a stuffed toy inside.

Joel (12:36)

that is that blows my mind whenever people who kill and they save souvenirs, like I understand that as a a human thing, but then giving it to somebody else in your house I'm not I don't know if if he

John (12:53)

It's that's creepy.

Joel (12:55)

Yeah. Like you give it to your dogs for a chew toy, give it to your little daughter who's also, you know, around that same age is even creepier.

And it's just a constant reminder, my god, this guy sounds like a monster.

John (13:09)

Right. So just from this little period of time, because this is really just May nineteen eighty six up into September nineteen eighty seven, we have three homicides of children. Okay? These are children. I know people think younger, but we've got an eleven year old, we've got a fifteen year old, and we've got a so

Jennifer is about to turn she would have turned 16 on September twenty second, I believe. And then we then we've got technically we've got a 22-year-old, but nobody knew at the time that this little body, like how old she was and everything, and she's petite enough that she fits into this sort of similar-looking small person being abducted and and murdered.

Joel (13:57)

Absolutely. You said Renette was

twenty I mean s Renette was five two. I mean that's a shorty.

John (14:02)

Right, s

yeah, she's a shorty. All right, so in October of nineteen eighty seven, which is about five months after Teresa McAbee was killed, a Lake County grand jury formally indicts that police officer for her murder. So that police officer is a guy named James Aaron Ducket. He's a guy I said was born September nineteen fifty seven down in Florida.

He had not been a police officer a super long time. For this department, he'd been working for seven months. If you go back and do the math, so 1957 is when he's born, he would

Joel (14:41)

Mm-hmm.

John (14:42)

have been right around 30 years old when all of this is going on. so that you know, he's probably molested or assaulted other people, and or he's decided that the way people get caught when they start molesting and assaulting people.

is

witnesses and that's why he's doing what he's doing here.

Joel (15:02)

And I don't mean to be grotesque, but I mean eleven year old is not putting up anything.

John (15:11)

No, not with a police officer especially.

Joel (15:14)

Yeah.

John (15:17)

So by early 1988, James Ducket goes on trial before a Lake County grand jury for first degree murder. The prosecution says straight up, right up front, we're seeking the death penalty. This is for Teresa McAbee's death. She's eleven years old. We're gonna put this guy to death if we can.

Joel (15:41)

Yeah, Florida

kills people.

John (15:44)

Yeah, they definitely kill people. They are at a record pace right now for doing that, which is how this case comes to be part of today's episode. During the trial, a forensic expert from the FBI named Michael Malone testifies that based on his examination of 20 pubic hairs taken from James Ducket, the hair from the crime scene was a match for him. Now we know in this day and age that hair

analysis can sometimes be junk science. And so the defense back then challenged the validity of the evidence. They countered that the hair could have potentially been from another person. The prosecution brings in experts over the tire marks. They bring in experts over the palm prints to show the defendant's guilt in court. And on May 10th of 1988, the jury finds James Duckett guilty

of first degree murder and sexual battery. And on that same day, the jury recommends the death penalty for James Aaron Ducket. And

Joel (16:55)

Yeah, I mean

if anybody if we're gonna have capital cup punishment in this country, that's sounds like a good one.

John (17:03)

Yeah. So June 30th, 1988 rolls around, and Lake County Circuit Court Judge Jerry Lockett sentences James Ducket to death by the electric chair. He then hands him down an additional sentence of 25 years to life with no parole on the sexual battery charge. During his trial and prior to his sentencing,

Duckett continues to insist that he was innocent and he begs for his life to be spared. So, where we're gonna pick up is in the middle of the insanity of the 1990 appeal that is the state of Florida versus James Duckett. And in this instant, the appellate is James Aaron A R E N Duckett.

versus

the state of Florida. In case you guys want to look it up, this was heard down in yeah it's the fifth judicial district down there in the Supreme Court of Florida. The case number is SC012149. It has lots of pages of the table of contents because they put so much in here. But I want to jump straight ahead to the state responding to what's going on.

and the the statement of the case and the facts laid out. so the facts from the direct appeal, the court summarizes this for us, and they say the facts and this opinion are set forth in extensive detail since the convictions are based on circumstantial evidence. James Ducket, a police officer for the city of Mascot, was the only officer on patrol from 7 p.m.

May 11th, 1987, to 7 a.m. May 12th of 1987. Between 10 and 10:30 p.m. on May the 11th, Teresa McAbee, an 11-year-old girl, walked a short distance from her home to a convenience store to purchase a pencil.

Joel (19:19)

my god, just a a number two, a yellow number two cost her

John (19:23)

Yep.

Joel (19:24)

her life.

John (19:25)

Yep. Teresa leaves the convenience store with a 16-year-old Mexican boy who had been doing laundry next door. The boy testified they walked over to the convenience store's dumpster and they had been talking there for about 20 minutes before Officer James Ducket approached them. A clerk at the convenience store comes in and testifies that James Duckett entered the store.

And asked the clerk the girl's name and age, at which time she advised him that Teresa was between 10 and 13 years old. After indicating he was going to go back around the store to check on her, James Ducket exits the store and he walks over to the dumpster where he locates the two children. James Ducket testified that he had a conversation with the children.

And subsequently acting in his capacity as a police officer, instructed Teresa to return home.

The sixteen year old boy testified that after speaking with Ducket, he went to the laundromat to wait for his uncle to arrive.

His uncle arrived shortly thereafter and

And they see James Ducket and Theresa McAbee standing next to

They see James Duckett and Teresa McAbee standing next to Duckett's patrol car.

James Ducket asked the uncle how old his nephew is, and subsequently James Ducket suggested that the uncle talk to his nephew while he has the conversation with Teresa. According to the uncle and the boy, James Ducket then placed Teresa in the passenger side of his patrol car, shut the door, he proceeded to the driver's side, and they testify that they never see Teresa touch the hood of the car.

Okay?

Joel (21:32)

Okay.

John (21:33)

At approximately at approximately eleven o'clock PM, Teresa's mother walks to the convenience store. She's looking for her daughter who went to get a pencil.

Joel (21:43)

How scary that would be.

John (21:46)

Upon arrival, she's told by the store's clerk that James Ducket may have taken her daughter to the police station. The mom leaves the store and spends around an hour with her sister driving around the town in search of Teresa. During this time, the mother does not see a police car. She doesn't see anyone. She drives a short distance to the Groveland police station, and there she

Tells an officer that she wanted to report her daughter as missing. The officer tells her that he will contact a mascot officer to meet her at the mascot police station. So Teresa's mother returns to the Mascot police station. She waits for 15 to 20 minutes before Ducett arrives. After arriving, James Ducett tells her that he had spoken with Teresa at the store.

That she had been in his police car and that she that he had directed her to return to her home. Before returning home, the mother also filled out a missing persons report with James Ducket.

Joel (22:57)

my

god, what a fuck!

John (23:02)

So subsequently, James Ducket goes to the house, he gets a picture of the little girl, he calls the police chief and informs him of the missing person's report, and he tells the police chief that he's made a flyer and he doesn't need any help. He's gonna take care of it. He then returns to the convenience store with a flyer and tells the clerk not to post it because the picture's not.

Joel (23:31)

So why'd he give it to her?

John (23:35)

So he could say he did?

Joel (23:37)

That's so weird.

John (23:39)

So although he told the clerk that he was gonna bring back a better flyer with a better picture, he never does. He does bring flyers to two other convenience stores, and the clerk at one of these stores testified that while the police usually drove by every 45 minutes to an hour, Ducket came by at 9 30 p.m., but did not return until he brought the flyer much later that evening.

A tape of Duckett's radio calls indicate none between 10:50 p.m. and 1210 a.m. At 1:15 a.m., James Duckett went to the uncle's house because he wanted to further question his 16-year-old nephew about Teresa being missing. And Duckett returns back to Teresa McAvee's mother's home around 3 in the morning.

So a little later on, a man sees what he believes to be a body in the lake. He goes to find the police chief. The police chief comes out and he determines that the body in the lake is Teresa. The lake is less than one mile from the convenience store where Teresa was last seen. A medical examiner is gonna come in and testify.

That the perpetrator appears to have sexually assaulted Teresa Maccabees and then drowned her, causing her death.

Joel (25:12)

sweet baby girl, what a fucking how could you do that to somebody?

John (25:19)

You're just a 30-year-old numbskull that's a predator. So prior to this incident, it's believed that the victim had not engaged in any sexual activity. There is blood found on her underpants, but there's not any blood found in or about James Duckt's patrol car. They do note that semen was discovered on Teresa McAbee's jeans.

A technician for the Sheriff's Department examined the tire tracks at the murder scene, and he points out that they have some unusual features. While leaving the crime scene, he notices that the tracks of one of the mascot patrol cars appear to be very similar. So he's

Joel (26:08)

Mm-hmm.

interesting.

John (26:12)

So he stops his vehicle and he takes a look at these tracks on the police chief's car. He determines that they're very similar and even consistent with the tracks from the different located and believed to be crime scene. An expert at trial is going to corroborate this evaluation, and they state that the tracks were made by Goodyear Eagle, Mud, and Snow Tires, which are

Designed for northern driving. While the local tire center has not sold any of these particular tires during nine its nine years of being in existence, it had received two sets by mistake. And those two sets of Goodyear Eagle Mud and Snow tires have been placed on the two mascot police cars.

Joel (27:06)

That's crazy.

John (27:09)

Evidence reveals that the vehicle which left the impressions had driven through a mud hole. However, there was no evidence presented that James Ducket had cleaned his vehicle, and no debris from the scene was found in or on his vehicle. Evidence was also presented that James Ducket was neat and clean later that night, as if he had just come on duty.

So on the hood of James Thuckett's patrol car, they find James's fingerprints and they find Teresa's fingerprints. The prints seem to be commingled. So they're overlapping fingerprints. And that would indicate that she had been sitting backwards on the hood of the car and had scooted back and up the hood mechanism.

There's a single pubic hair found in the victim's underpants when her clothing is recovered. So other experts don't reach a conclusion by comparing this hair with James Duckett's pubic hairs. But Michael Malone, an FBI special agent who has been qualified as an expert in hair and fibers in 42 states, he examines the hair sample.

Concluding that there was a high degree of probability that the pubic hair found in her underpants was James Ducett's pubic hair. Malone also testified that the pubic hair did not match the different hairs of the 16-year-old boy, the uncle, or the others who were in contact with the victim that evening. I don't know what you gotta do back in the 80s, man, but a lot of these people seem to be giving up their pubic hairs pretty freely.

Joel (29:02)

I know, that's what I was just thinking. It's like

John (29:02)

It's it it's very

creepy how this all reads.

Joel (29:07)

You just r reach in your pants and grab a handful and and put it in a bag.

John (29:11)

Yeah

I mean this is a terrible tragedy, but this is also like it this this whole thing is creepy.

Joel (29:17)

Yeah, and Michael Malone, he either looks at the pubic hair for not long enough or he looks at it for a weirdly long.

John (29:28)

Yeah, that would be a strange job. Can you imagine like having that job and then years later being told that it's kind of junk science?

Joel (29:36)

Yeah, and you're like, I spent all that time?

John (29:39)

I was staring at so many pubes. On June 15th, 1987, this is back before his arrest or indictment, James Ducett gives a statement and he denies having driven his vehicle near the lake that evening. He further stated that Teresa McAbee had not been on the hood of his patrol car and that he had stopped at the Jiffy store to get coffee.

After the girl went home. At this point in time, the state starts presenting testimony of some interesting folks. They bring up three young women who allegedly had sexual encounters with Ducett. Prior to the introduction of this testimony, the trial judge instructs the jury that the testimony is for a limited purpose.

Really just to show motive, opportunity, plan, and identification. And like, look, I'm not for this guy, but like they're letting this in for a lot of different reasons. So the first woman up, she's in a petite young woman, 19 years old, and she testifies that while she can't remember the date, in either January or February of 1987, she ran into James Ducket while she was trying to find her boyfriend.

After indicate that he too was searching for her boyfriend, Ducket drives her in her in in the patrol car with him to search for her boyfriend. While in the car, James Ducket places his hand on her shoulder and attempts to kiss her.

After she refuses to kiss him, he stops and he lets her out of the car. Turns out she was a little old for him.

The second woman, a petite 18-year-old, stated that on May 1st of 1987, James Ducket picked her up while she was walking along a highway. After he picked her up, he drives her to a remote area in an orange grove. He parks the car, he places a hand on her breast and attempts to kiss her. When she refused to kiss him, he desisted and

He decided he would drive her where she had requested to go.

The third woman, who was a petite 17-year-old, testified on two separate occasions, once in either February or March of 1987, and again in April or May of 1987. She voluntarily met up with James Ducett at a remote location while he was on duty and on patrol and performed oral sex items.

Seventeen year old. On a thirty year old man.

Joel (32:41)

totally disgusting.

John (32:44)

Got any questions so far? I've got more.

Joel (32:48)

Yeah, I'll I'll save it to the I I've got a couple of questions but I I'm too invested in the story and the and they're kinda just questions that can wait. Yeah.

John (32:57)

We're getting there. Okay.

So at trial, I've mentioned this above, but I want to single it out here. James Ducket testifies on his own behalf.

Joel (33:09)

Let's go. Get up there, buddy. You're you're gonna outsmart

John (33:12)

So he testifies that on the night of the murder he had been running a stationary radar near the convenience store and he noticed a girl was talking to quote unquote three Mexicans over at the laundromat. So he's for some reason hung up on making sure everyone knows they were Mexican. stationary

Joel (33:38)

You see something, say something.

John (33:40)

I guess so.

for everyone at home, a stationary radar is something you might see in the Dukes of Hazard in the hands of Roscoe P. Coltrain. usually it's kind of a large radar gun. Sometimes in towns, they'll put up a 35 mile per hour sign with a radar on it, and as you go past, it tells you how fast you're going. He's essentially running this near the convenience store where he sees these three Mexicans.

Talking to Teresa McAbee allegedly. After he sees the girl and one of the boys walk over to an ice machine, he goes into the store, he asks questions about the girl. He then testifies that he leaves the store, asks the children their ages, and requests that they come with him to his car. He questions the boy a little bit further, and at this time, the boy's uncle arrives on scene with some quote unquote other men.

We don't know what race they are. Presumably if they were all Mexican, James Ducket would tell us. But subsequent Yeah, he likes to tell us.

Joel (34:48)

Ha he's proven. He's proven. If they if they're not white, he's

he's saying.

John (34:55)

he subsequently to their arrival, James Duckett says he places the girl in his car while he speaks with the uncle about his nephew. After the boy's uncle leaves with the other men, Duckett obtains more information from Teresa and tells her to go home. He says he did not see her again after she got out of the car and walked in front of the store. According to his testimony, Duckett

Also says when he returned to the station for a short period of time, he had stopped at a convenience store for coffee, and he then went on patrol. He recounts getting a call that he responds to by a Groveland police officer, and he says he returned at this time to the station in Mascot where he meets Teresa McAbee's mother.

After visiting the uncle's home to ask some questions about the girl, he drives to Teresa McAbee's home and asks her mother for a picture. He then returns down to City Hall. He calls the police chief and tells them about the missing girl and tells him he's going to make a poster and contact all the local stores. He explains the fingerprints away by saying that.

It was possible that Teresa had sat on the hood of his car while he was at the convenience store. When it comes to the testimony of all three women who alleged that he had some kind of encounter with them, he denies it. He says he did not have an encounter with either of the women who weren't interested in him, and he certainly did not have an encounter with a young girl who says that she gave him oral sex at a remote location.

Joel (36:50)

Okay, all three liars, guys.

John (36:52)

Yep. Well, everybody's lying. Everybody's lying here. Because he's just simple cop doing simple cop things. at this point after his testimony, it goes to the jury. So the jury finds that James Ducket is guilty of sexual battery and first degree murder. During the penalty phase, the state presents no additional testimony. James Ducket brings on four witnesses.

By an eight to four vote, the jury recommends a death sentence. The trial court judge, they find two aggravating circumstances. The first one is during the commission of or immediately after a sexual battery, the murder was committed, and that the murder itself was especially heinous, atrocious, or cruel.

Joel (37:44)

Yeah. Yeah. I would agree

John (37:45)

The

Joel (37:46)

with all those.

John (37:47)

the trial court judge finds the existence of a single statutory mitigating circumstance, and that is that prior to this, James Duckett had no significant history of criminal activity. That is prior to this, James Duckett had no significant history of criminal activity.

Joel (38:06)

I like that the it's mitigating as in we don't but also you don't know. I mean I

John (38:13)

Well

Joel (38:14)

I know you don't I guess he doesn't have a hi he doesn't have a documented history, but you're like

John (38:19)

Wha he was on the stand and he says he didn't have it, so we have to take him at its word.

Joel (38:23)

yeah, yeah, that's true.

John (38:27)

the trial court judge gives credit and determines that Duckett's family background and education give rise to non-statutory mitigating evidence. Basically, he's saying he comes from a good place and a good time and he's educated, therefore, we'll think about it. After making all these findings, the trial judge imposes the death sentence. So I guess he didn't think about it too hard. He concludes that the aggravating circumstances far outweigh the mitigating circumstances.

He sentenced ducket to life imprisonment for the mandatory minimum of 25 years for the sexual battery. And obviously, he's already got the death sentence and the murder. So this is an appeal, and we end up with this evidentiary hearing. So now I'm gonna read you a summary of how this evidentiary hearing goes. So that means that the appellate courts and the Florida Supreme Court at different points in time.

They look at it and they go, okay, we'll hear him out. We'll let him present a little bit and we'll see what he says. So we get a couple of different things going on where they present live witnesses. That's not always the case in an evidentiary hearing, but that's what we're doing here. The first guy up is Richard Ridgway. This is James Duckett's first witness.

Mr. Ridgway is an assistant states attorney with the Fifth Judicial Circuit in Florida. In June of 1989, Ridgway investigated a complaint made by a man named Ron Hill. He took a tape stam statement from a from an inmate at Marion Correctional Institute named Gwyn Gurley. He testifies that Ron Hill alleged that a script had been prepared.

For

Gwyngurley's use in assisting her to fabricate testimony at James Duckett's trial.

Ridgway does not recall any specific type of preparation with Gurley prior to tape recording an interview with her. Says he didn't prepare any notes. He didn't report repair, he did not prepare any reports, diagrams, or evaluations, and he did not recall what happened to any of it. Because we're getting on up there. It's been two years. it's been a year and change. Kenneth

Ram is called to the stand. He's an investigator with the state's attorney's office in Ocala, Florida. In August 1989, Rick Ridgway, Richard Ridgway, contacted him regarding this case, and subsequently he ends up interviewing Gwyngurley, and the interview is audiotaped. He believes this tape is given to either Mr. Ridgway or to Miss Juretz, a secretary, to transcribe.

He reviews notes that Mr. Ridgway had prepared as a result of the interview with Gwen Gurley. He doesn't remember talking to someone named Linda Long. He says if he did, it would have just been a casual interview where he didn't maintain any notes or correspondence. In fact, he testifies he really didn't maintain any notes, correspondence, memos, or any files related to this case. So this is our Hail Mary to get out of the decence.

Joel (41:47)

He's

John (41:47)

that James

Ducket is presenting. For those of you who are not as entertained, I apologize.

Joel (41:52)

And the guy's like,

I got n I got nothing for ya.

John (41:56)

The next witness called is Albert Vidal. He's an attorney with the state's attorney's office in Ocala. He was involved with collateral attack proceedings in this case. So that's when you're trying to attack the credibility of witnesses. He

Joel (42:10)

Mm-hmm.

John (42:11)

he does not remember or have any specific recollection of meeting with investigators in this case. He is not aware of the destruction of any public records or files related to this case.

He says that at times he removes handwritten notes from the files if they're exempt from disclosure, which by the way, almost nothing is exempt from disclosure in Florida anymore, but at the time there were a few things. He does not recall removing any notes from James Duckett's files. So this really is a Hail Mary.

Joel (42:43)

Absolutely. Everybody's

getting up going, I got nothing.

John (42:47)

Yeah, but I mean it's a death penalty case. Some of this is automatic. I would say that it gets better, but I would be lying.

Joel (42:57)

Okay.

John (42:58)

Ida Press is a nurse employed by the Lake County Sheriff's Department. She's called in. she reports that in nineteen eighty six she was called from her job at the jail to go to the old courthouse. Upon arrival, she took hair samples from James Duckett.

She placed them in plastic bags in the presence of law enforcement officers or one officer she couldn't recall. She did not recall if she wrote any kind of report concerning the taking of the hair samples. So she's the one plucking the pubes. Keep that in mind. She has not maintained any notes, correspondence, or memorandi regarding this case. They then bring out a secretary.

She says she doesn't remember anything about this or have any control of anything. She did transcribe one tape. And then they bring Gerard King in and Gerard they bring Gerard King in. Gerard King currently works for child protection investigations, but he had been the chief investigator at the state's attorney's office from nineteen eighty five to nineteen, I think he was there till ninety one or so.

In 87, he had approximately 23 years experience in homicide investigations. For those of you who don't know, that is a very long time to be working on this. There was a videotape they made at the Jiffy store. This was where James Duckett explained he had been on the night of the murder. And this investigator, Gerard King, he's the only one who seems to have kept something, but he maintained a copy of the tape.

And he put the original into evidence. So this is the tape from the Jiffy store on the night that we went to get coffee there. James Duffett. James Ducket, allegedly. they then get in.

Joel (44:49)

Okay. Yeah. It's all writing on this.

John (44:55)

Well, it's it's writing on this. So then we bring in everybody who testified related to the tires.

Joel (45:04)

Mm-hmm. Okay.

John (45:05)

None of them kept any evidence, but guess what?

They kept the tires.

Joel (45:10)

okay.

John (45:12)

So the day that James Duckett was indicted, an attorney named Steve Herm, who had been working for the state's attorney back then, he testifies at this appeal that he was brought in to provide assistance and presenting evidence to the grand jury. he points out that someone else was the lead counsel. They go through all of this and they find no error.

an investigator from the state's attorney's office shows up at the murder scene the night of he's brought in to investigate. They this is one of the most thorough appeals I have ever seen. And I'm pulling from all of this to say, guess what?

Joel (46:01)

Guilty and he's dead? Or he's gonna be killed?

John (46:05)

So you'd like to like jump like way ahead here, man. So he's guilty. They affirm this appeal in this massive hundreds and hundreds of pages. They don't even point out the fact that he's a suspect in three other homicides, two of which it pretty much looks like he did them. I think he's been cleared in the third one at this point in time.

but the reason I'm bringing him up is because today is a monumentous day in the life of James Duckett.

Joel (46:42)

Is it his last day?

John (46:42)

So

as you and I are recording James Ducket is dead. At 119 PM today, July twenty eighth, twenty twenty six, sixty-eight year old James Aaron Ducket was put to death by the lethal injection by lethal injection at the Florida State Prison. When asked if he would like to make a final statement.

He said, No, thank you.

Joel (47:16)

Yeah.

John (47:17)

he had family members who came to see him on the night before his his scheduled execution. So last night, he woke up at 4 45 a.m. this morning to discover that his final appeal related to the US Supreme Court had been kicked out. The ruling was made about an hour after the previously scheduled execution time.

Which was gonna be noon today, but it was delayed by slightly more than an hour waiting on the US Supreme Court to decide what they wanted to do. while that went on, he was served his last meal of eggs, grits, bacons, biscuits, and chocolate milk, and had a little chat with his pastor. And then he flew off into the Great Beyond. Goodbye, James Ducket. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it is a terrible.

Joel (48:08)

That's a terrible last mill. Yeah, get the fuck out of here.

I get behind some chocolate milk though.

John (48:20)

So interesting story about this guy.

And

then I'll let you do your question, okay? this is one of the wildest cases in Florida history in terms of like how much paperwork. If you want a rabbit hole, it's a great one. I bring him up here because about two decades after James Ducket murdered Teresa McAbee, his two-year-old grandson Trenton Duckett went missing in August of 2006.

Melinda Duckett committed suicide a month later due to extensive media attention surrounding her child's disappearance. That was that was Trenton Duckett's

Joel (49:02)

Was that the mom or grandma? Okay, so the mom. So

John (49:07)

mom.

Joel (49:07)

so his daughter's son. Okay. So his daughter his daughter commits suicide s

John (49:10)

His his son's wife yeah, his

son's wife commits suicide and his grandson goes missing.

Joel (49:17)

Okay. Okay.

John (49:19)

the police have been questioning

James Duckett in prison over Trenton Duckett's missing case. He revealed that Melinda, who had gotten divorced from his son, was part of an effort

John (49:43)

there's a tornado above me. Hold please.

Joel (49:45)

Okay.

John (50:45)

There.

Sorry about that, it blew my ears out. It like stopped everything

Joel (50:50)

my gosh.

John (50:51)

he was doing.

Joel (50:53)

Yeah, I just looked at it, you got some tornado warnings.

John (50:57)

Like everything took over in my house like with this crazy ass.

And I guess it's

All right.

did it pause us?

Joel (51:32)

No yeah, for just a second, but you were like it just it paused you right when you were like there's a tornado above me. Like it cut you off, but you're recording again.

John (51:39)

Yeah, everything

cut off. Like for a second. See, this room runs on a generator.

Joel (51:43)

crazy.

John (51:47)

so they learned from James Ducket that Melinda, who had been divorced from his son, was like they were working out trying to reestablish a relationship and that Melinda was gonna come and visit James Ducket in prison with Trenton the weekend of the boys' disappearance.

Joel (52:15)

What?

John (52:17)

And as of today, Trenton Duckett's remains have never been found. He remains missing. When Duckett's death warrant was signed in 2026, his son told the Orlando Sentinel that he was still searching for his son two decades since Trenton's disappearance, and he would rather talk about that than his father's crime or scheduled execution.

Joel (52:41)

Makes sense.

John (52:43)

Anyways, you got any questions on this one? I know a lot about this case. Unfortunately, it's not much more interesting than that. which is why I didn't go through the 700 pages of appellate documents just from one appeal. I just went through the highlights so you could see they tried everything. He says he's been innocent the whole time.

Joel (53:02)

So I've got w one questi or I've got several questions. But first thing is I know at some point you said that he got the death sentence on eight to four. At some point Florida overturned their or passed a law that you had to be to be put on the be put to death in the state. It had to be unanimous. So his

John (53:25)

No, it wasn't eight to four. What where'd you get that from?

Joel (53:28)

I thought that that's what for my notes. I thought you said it was eight to four.

John (53:32)

No, it was let me make sure.

It says they recommended it, but I believe I believe it's

Joel (54:12)

so maybe maybe they i it was it was a unanimous decision that he was guilty but recommendation eight to four, maybe?

John (54:21)

I don't s I don't see eight to four anywhere in my notes at all.

Joel (54:25)

Okay, so I I I must have

John (54:27)

I'm I may have misspoken.

Joel (54:29)

Yeah, okay well and also I might have misheard what exactly that was. so okay, so my first question to you is it sounds like there's a lot of circumstantial evidence. Like in nineteen eighty nine when he was found guilty, you know, we've now know that like you said that hair evidence isn't what we thought it was.

And you know, tire tracks even that we've talked about off air and on this podcast about how you can get a expert witness to g up get up there and say anything, right? So the expert witness can say, yeah, it's those tires, and then if you pay enough, ten other witnesses can say, those not those tires. So you work for defense. If you were defending this case, what would you what would be your kind of big points to point at?

John (55:24)

Well,

so I went through this as a defense case at one point. So during his incarceration on Death Row, some people have come forward and said some things that were interesting. What I focused in on was

The concerns about the disputed evidence is the biggest one for me.

Joel (55:47)

I was just turling.

John (55:47)

Well you

I didn't know if you're singling me.

Joel (55:49)

No, no, no.

John (55:51)

so this guy, Marshall Frank, he's a retired homicide cop. I think he was trying to sell books at the time. He stated he had gone through the case file. I don't know how he got it, but to write a book, basically. And he had established back in like May of 2003 that in his mind he felt like

The pubic hair and the tire mark evidence were potentially wrong. He also felt like the fingerprint and the palm print evidence were done in an old way that a new way would not approve of.

So he believed that

There was a strong possibility someone else was involved, even with the evidence. Does that make sense? He couldn't figure out the lies.

Joel (56:44)

Yes. So he's not saying that

Ducket is innocent. He's saying that there might be a second perpetrator as well.

John (56:52)

Well, he just felt he starts saying he's not sure that the evidence matters, but he he concludes that he thinks Ducket is innocent. And I'll also throw this out there that one of the police chiefs of Michael Brady, the mayor of Mascot as well. So Michael Brady is one of the police chiefs of Mascot, Josh Thomas, who was one of the mayors of Mascot, they both believed that James Ducett might not be guilty.

A couple of years after his conviction, Michael Malone comes out and he believes that Duckett did it. Like that's his stance at first. But it comes out that it's believed he had given false testimony in multiple court cases, knowing that some of the hair and fiber evidence he was dealing with was scientifically flawed. These events

Circling Michael Malone, they sort of do rule out the pubic hair evidence in Duckett's case, which would raise some doubts over the grounds of his murder conviction. I would think they potentially had that semen from her genes where they could test it and do something more concrete. but the prosecution and the police investigators, they all state that he's the real killer if Mac.

As a defense investigator myself, I don't necessarily ever believe that nonsense. I've never seen tire marks be so distinct like they are in this case. I think if you could disprove those and like show other Goodyear Eagles were similar and that the guy was just mistaken, that might be a way to go with it. the three

Joel (58:41)

Well also with

the tires, like I know that they're northern tires, but but snow tires and mudding tir like somebody they could you would assume that they could be s very similar, right? It's traction on loose and wet s you know, ground, right? Like and it's Florida,

John (59:00)

Yeah, yeah.

Joel (59:02)

so there's a bunch of people who have mudding tires.

John (59:08)

Yeah, I mean I never I never really understood this case. the fact that they believe he's a serial killer is interesting to me. I'm actually working on a completely different case where I think there was a a chance that some lies have been told along the way that ended up with a guy being blamed for being a serial killer and I don't think he I don't think he killed anyone. That's unusual.

Joel (59:32)

Not even one person.

John (59:34)

Not even my

I don't know that I don't know that James Dockett killed anyone. That's I you know, you and I we're hard against the killers of children.

Joel (59:42)

Yes.

John (59:43)

And I didn't take a huge stance in this, you didn't take a huge one in this, he didn't get a nickname. I mean you he got you got some moans and groans because we believe that like all of this if he did it is horrible. But

Joel (59:53)

Yes. And

I believe he did it because I believe that and it's it's circumstantial evidence, yes, but he was seen with Teresa just hours before and then he says that like I draw like he says at one point, you know, and I I might have mis been mishearing this, but you know, he's like

yeah, sh I sent her home and then at and then at some point he says, yeah, when she after she got home and then the the photo thing and that he like I don't it just it just seems it just seems like there's very little other possibility or he would have some sort of insight of what was happening. I mean he is you said he's only been on the on the job for seven months ish, but

As a police officer, there's such a small window for that little girl to go missing.

Then it just yeah. I mean I don't like a lot of circumstantial evidence and and I wish I wish they did have DNA on this, but it sounds like and then just kind of his reaction to everything.

Does it it doesn't make him look innocent in the moment.

John (1:01:21)

Yeah, so Marshall Frank comes back around, the guy that I was talking about here. He comes back around and basically says, you know what, I got the case files from the other murders, and not only do I think he killed Teresa McAbee, I also think he killed the the

Joel (1:01:36)

Renette and Jennifer.

John (1:01:38)

Yeah, yeah, Jennifer Weldon and Vernette Peterson. So he swings back

Joel (1:01:43)

So are those

John (1:01:43)

around.

Joel (1:01:44)

are those the so serial killer with three bodies, is that what you're saying? Or is he saying is he implying that there's more?

John (1:01:51)

He he thinks there's three and then he leaves open the possibility of there being

Joel (1:01:59)

The interesting thing is is those three women that came forward that two of them said he made a sexual advance on me but then let me go. Like so, you know, you 'cause you said he was twenty nine, thirty whenever Renette was the first one, so he was, you know, thirty, thirty one whenever Teresa went missing. So he had, you know, those are prime hunting years for

psychopaths. So it would make sense that he has other victims, but it's also that maybe he thought he had committed some crimes. I guess I could see this, and this is again compu purely speculation. But I could see that he had committed some crimes and then thought I could become a cop and do this and then the first couple of times 'cause you you know, since he'd only been a cop for a short amount of time, he thought I'd get a girl in the car and just by

grabbing her breast, her being in my car, I'm a cop. I can do whatever I want, but whenever you or they'll want it or whatever it is. But it's weird that he that those two women came forward with these terrible stories, but the end of the story was then he dropped me off or he immediately backed off and let me go.

John (1:03:16)

I mean, I think that's common to see that, like, okay, so say Teresa Maccabees' first murder. Then

You could walk away from these other things for different reasons. You could be like, you know what? Somebody saw me with her. Or or I

Joel (1:03:35)

that's a good point. But people saw

him with Teresa.

John (1:03:41)

Yeah, I don't I mean, maybe he just decided she's small enough, I'm gonna take a chance. I don't think people remember little kids. But maybe they would

Joel (1:03:48)

Yeah.

John (1:03:48)

have remembered the teenagers. I don't know. I don't know why somebody would do that. I do s like, here's the thing. Like everything you hear that's a pattern or whatever, like even this prosecution, this defense, all of this.

Never be shocked when you discover it wasn't correct.

Joel (1:04:06)

Yes, yes, I think that's a good lesson in life.

John (1:04:10)

Yeah, that's true with all of this stuff. I mean, if you guys want to see some cool stuff.

More has gone on in James Ducett's case in the last seven months than the entirety of James Ducett's life. They have analyzed DNA, they have gone through everything, they have looked at him, taken all the physical evidence they could take just in case. I don't think we're gonna find he killed more than three people. I think these are kind of amateur crimes.

I think it's probably evidence, probably evidence that he'd seen that he did it. They definitely bent over backwards before executing him to make sure that some piece of DNA somewhere did not exonerate.

Joel (1:04:59)

Is that at least in part because so is the police union still representing him all these years later? Okay. That's crazy.

John (1:05:08)

No. No. No, there's innocence

projects involved. I mean, so the governor of Florida in twenty twenty six is a guy named Ron DeSantis. And Ron DeSantis has been on a bit of a rampage this year. He has

Joel (1:05:24)

Yeah, er earlier

in the year they were set to like top a twenty five year record on executions.

John (1:05:31)

Yeah, yeah, and they're doing that because they're just trying to clear out death row and give justice to these families. They're tired of the system not working. In order to do that, there's been a lot of challenges. And the government's office, the FDLE, which is the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, it's like their State Bureau of Investigation, and a lot of these prosecution's offices and stuff, from what I can tell, they've been pretty cooperative to get things moving. Like they don't want to be the state that executed five innocent people.

Joel (1:06:03)

So my last question to you is so you always hear that prison isn't a good place for cops and I know that he was on death row so he would have been he he wouldn't had he wouldn't have been in general population aka gin pop but would he if he was in gin pop would he have had a would he what would life look like for him?

John (1:06:30)

if he had been in general population, it would not have been good. I mean

Joel (1:06:33)

Because he's a cop and a child killer.

John (1:06:35)

Yeah, yeah, he he was a police officer and a child killer at the same time. the child killer part, you're not like it few people survive that in general population. Like you hear about

Joel (1:06:48)

Really?

John (1:06:49)

people getting out for child killings, but usually like what you hear somebody being okay with is like somebody who bumped a kid with a car and they died.

Joel (1:06:57)

Yeah.

John (1:06:58)

People who hunt children, and this, like let's let's not make any mistakes about this. This is hunting children.

Joel (1:07:04)

Yes.

John (1:07:05)

If they did this, this is predatory behavior by a 30-year-old man towards little children.

That is the type of thing, like even if he had not been on death row, he was never gonna leave segregated housing for the rest of his life. He was gonna be in what's called close security housing forever with other people like him, other cops, other child killers.

Joel (1:07:32)

'cause yeah. Okay. So it's it's it you're you're put into a a different popul you're not in gin pop, you're in this population of other monsters who are at risk of other prisoners' retaliation.

John (1:07:48)

Yeah.

Joel (1:07:50)

Okay, so one second. and this is something I've asked you before, but I'm gonna ask you in a different way. So in nineteen eighty nine, you know, they thought hair follicles or hair matches were, you know, appropriate for courtroom, that they were big enough they were they were true enough that courtroom could go.

You know, DNA solves a lot of pro a lot of cases. I've asked you if you ever think DNA is gonna, you know, come back and change. Is there anything right now that you see in your cases that you believe is junk science that is that in ten or fifteen years they'll no longer say that like I've asked you about ballistics and stuff. Like do you think there's something that that will ch they'll change their minds on and go, this isn't actually an ironclad as we used to think.

John (1:08:44)

I so I have an answer to that question, but it like no, not exactly. Like the big thing coming up is like testing weed and impairment with weed. there's a secondary thing on tool marks related to firearms that I don't believe in all that much. The biggest thing I've seen right now, AI.

Joel (1:09:08)

Yes.

John (1:09:09)

is

creeping in on things and you know that's obviously gonna be a concern. Not it's not AI like itself, it's like specific types of genitors generative AI is they're able to to make things I don't think are gonna be reliable. Here's the biggest problem we have right now. about

One out of every ten scientists do not have the credentials or the trial experience they say that I have. We have a lot of liars.

Joel (1:09:40)

Yes,

and we t we talked about that about expert witnesses a second ago.

John (1:09:45)

Yeah.

Joel (1:09:45)

Like you can if you're if you pay so not only can you pay for the outcome you want, but two, they might not have any idea of what they're actually saying.

John (1:10:01)

yeah, yeah, it's not yeah, they don't have any idea of what they're actually saying. Probably one of the creepiest things, if you want me to keep elaborating on this,

Joel (1:10:11)

Please.

John (1:10:12)

one of the creepiest things I've seen recently is this

cyber predictive analytics program called Cybercheck.

It does not do what it says it does. And so it's presented to law enforcement agency. Flock cameras are terrible too, but it's presented in the same vein as that. It's a huge advance in this artificial intelligence that allegedly can go back I think it's thirty years right now and connect devices to Wi-Fi points. It's total bullshit. I have no idea where these people

Or coming up with this, but it was being used to like close old murder cases by saying that guy's flip phone flip phone back in 2003 was at the corner of the murder and all this. I have never seen anything like that. Because it's like expert witness lies on steroids. And

I think a lot of agencies around the country right now are believing that type of cyber check nonsense. And I've seen these reports come in with like I I one of my biggest pet peeves at the moment is photo recognition software. It is wrong a hundred percent of the time. It's never right. It will spit out like

sort of similar looking people from databases comparing like a very clear photo that you take for passport and licenses, like

Joel (1:11:58)

Mm.

John (1:11:58)

ID photos, like comparing surveillance footage on a potato to that is not comparable. So they're saying they can automatically match. I've not seen a match yet that made any sense.

Joel (1:12:14)

That's crazy. Yeah, we're about to AI and crime and solving, that's that's a rabbit hole we're all about to go down.

John (1:12:26)

Well, it's gonna be great if it means less police. We need less police in this country. We need the same budgets, less officers. The officers that we need need to be much more highly trained.

Joel (1:12:39)

Yes.

John (1:12:39)

They

need to be put through college. They need to be put through master's programs. It does not need to be run by a homicide detective who decided to be a politician 30 years into his career. It needs to be run by a guy with a PhD that took the time to understand human beings in the process. And I'll tell you this, if you fix mental health in this country, you'll have a whole lot more time to focus on actual police work.

Like we got rid of the asylums, we got rid of all the like crisis-related residential programs because we felt like they were cruel. And like it didn't stop those people from being picked up by the exact same people. We just now put them in cinder blocked buildings, jails,

Joel (1:13:24)

Mm.

John (1:13:24)

and like act like that's better than an asylum. And it's not.

Joel (1:13:29)

Nowhere near because I mean asylums, yes, they had problems 'cause there was psychopaths that was running but in the jail there's psychopaths that are going to take advantage of Yes. And

John (1:13:39)

both sides. Both sides. Yeah.

Joel (1:13:41)

at the jail they've got just almost just as much power. They don't have as much resources as in, you know, they can bring in a lobotomy machine or whatever or or keep sedated, but they but they've got as much power. No. Absolutely not.

John (1:13:51)

Right. Well, they don't mind physically fighting them either. So they, you know. Yeah. It's

it's a very strange world we live in. I do recommend people go always be reading about forensics and forensic evidence and the latest advances in science and technology and how it's affected in the court, because our court is always behind. And like the more you read about it, the more educated you become, the more you like participate in the process, the better off we all are.

Joel (1:14:21)

Dude, that's so heartbreaking that he got to live thirty years after killing Teresa. Forty years at almost forty years after leaving Teresa. That's four times her lifespan. He got to spend it in jail. And he spent all that time and he still had his shitty last meal. If you got forty years locked up thinking about your last meal, dude, do it right.

John (1:14:47)

Well, was there some point in time that you thought the guy that was thirty and decided that like the best thing he could do is abduct the eleven year old? Maybe like he'd abducted her because she was around the obvious suspects?

And that's what he was thinking, like, I can blame it on the Mexican people.

Joel (1:15:03)

Yes, I can

believe not d there was three there's three Mexicans. There were sixteen.

John (1:15:09)

Maybe that's why she was the one who got abducted. But like you're thinking that guy is gonna make a good last meal choice? Come on. I don't think he had a last meal choice. I think he just got what was on the radar that way.